위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1040
Wikipedia:Охранник Леса
Охранник Леса has been indeffed by Sandstein as a tendentious editing SPA.El_C 19:43, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
내가 볼 때, ирарара и)은 주로 '위대한 잘못들'을 바로잡기 위해, 특히 '서구적' 편향에 입각한 북한 비평가들의 틀을 짜기 위해 여기에 있다.최근의 편집 전쟁 이력을 볼 때 나는 이것이 단지 일반적인 POV 편집인지 아니면 가식적인 편집, 주제 금지 또는 NOTHERE 사례에 대한 블록 수준으로 올라가는지 잘 모르겠다.가이 (도움말!) 2020년 6월 18일 12시 36분 (UTC)[
- 러시아어 위키백과에서 그들은 오랜 기간 동안 북한과 관련된 모든 것에 대한 주제 금지를 받아왔으며, 작년에 막힘이 없고, 다시 막힘이 없고, ArbCom에 의해 차단되지 않았으며, 항상 주제 금지가 시행되고 있었다는 것을 알 수 있다.여기에서는, 비록 반응이 별로 고무적이지 않았지만, 그들은 지금까지 단 한 장의 토크 페이지 경고만 받았다.북한의 편집도 별로 고무적이지 않다.아마도 가장 쉬운 것은 북한 토픽에 대한 금지라는 주제에서 시작해서 무슨 일이 일어나는지 보는 것일 것이다.그들은 영어 능력을 en-1로 열거한다.--Ymblanter (대화) 12:52, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 나는 북한#정부와 정치 섹션의 시즈어를 바탕으로 한 컨센서스 버전을 반환했다.
- 관측자들은 서쪽에서 왔다.예를 들어 "법제권력은 단일민족최고인민회의(SPA)가 쥐고 있다. 687명의 회원들은 5년마다 일반 참정권에 의해 선출되지만, 외부 관찰자들에 의해 가짜 선거로 묘사되어 왔다. (뉴욕 타임스NK뉴스) 또는 '조선민주주의인민공화국'이라는 공식 직함에도 불구하고 일부 관측통들은 북한의 정치체제를 절대군주제나 '계습독재'로 표현했다. 스탈린 독재라고도 표현되었다.(텔레그래프 더 타임스)CWI 온라인뉴욕 타임즈이코노미스트)."
- 쾰른 аа иа иа, 현재와 같이 "외부 관측자" (사실상 어떤 자격도 필요하지 않다)가 아니라 "서방 관찰자"로부터 나온 북한에 대한 비판을 최소화해야 한다는 실질적인 합의를 보여주기 위해 고군분투할 수도 있다고 생각한다.그럼에도 불구하고, 몇몇 편집자들은 당신의 추가에 대해 이의를 제기하고 있으며, 위에서 언급된 바와 같이, 이것 때문에 ruWP에서 금지된 주제인 것 같다.가이(도움말!) 16:36, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 39호실이 후원하는 '로열 코트 경제'는 북한 국가의 본질을 많이 드러낸다.그러나 실제로 이 문제를 논의할 장소는 아니다.WP에 따르면 편집은 학문적 및 주류적 합의를 대표할 필요가 있다.응석받이로 간주되는 지속적인 위반은 제재의 대상이 될 수 있다.El_C 16:57, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 현재 편집한 내용을 사용하여 기사를 수정하지 않았다.나는 출처를 근거로 삼았고 서로 다른 시간에 편집자 3명의 다른 편집을 취소했다. 그들은 비협조적인 편집을 했다.나를 위반자라고 주장하기 위해 규칙을 위반하는 모습을 보여줘.
- Охранник Леса, this is a violation of tendentious and disruptive editing.BBC 소스는 '시스템적 남용'이라는 제목의 섹션 헤더를 가지고 있기 때문에, 새로운 추가에 기존 소스를 사용할 수 없다.그것은 허용되지 않는다.그런 편집은 더 이상 하지 않으면, 나는 너를 영어 위키백과에서 무한정 차단할 준비가 되어 있다.El_C 17:15, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 2018년 6월 24일 방갈라마니아마데 편집은 "알렉토리얼"이라는 단어를 사용했다.합의되지 않은 편집을 거쳐 2020년 6월 13일 합의판을 돌려주었다.워싱턴포스트는 "KNCA의 모욕은 북한 내 반인륜적 범죄 의혹을 제기한 유엔 보도를 불신하려는 광범위한 시도의 일환으로 보인다"고 썼다.그리고 토크페이지에 글을 올렸는데, "법정"이라는 용어는 중립적이며, UN, HRW, AI에 의한 인권침해 혐의가 입증되거나 입증되지 않는다는 것을 의미하지 않는다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарора рарора
- Охранник Леса, consensus can change, especially if we're talking about 2018.내용은 출처와 일치해야 한다, 그것이 요점이다.El_C 19:47, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 합의되지 않은 편집인 2020년 6월 7일 이전에는 "거부"라는 단어에 대한 공감대가 존재했다.합의되지 않은 편집, 2020년 6월 11일 이후, 토크 페이지에서 토론을 시작했다.그리고 그 기사에서, 비협의 버전 홍보를 위한 편집 전쟁을 시작했다.이 소식통에 따르면 컨센서스 버전은 '알선수재'라는 단어를 사용한다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарара рарарора
- 나는 그것이 첫 번째 소식통의 말을 미백하고 있다고 생각한다. BBC가 쓰는 것처럼 우리가 진정한 "체계적 학대"에 대해 이야기하고 있다는 것에 의심의 여지가 없다고 생각한다.와포 출처는 페이월 뒤에 있어서 읽을 수가 없어서 아무 쓸모가 없어.El_C 20:39, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 글에서 위반을 하지 않았다.워싱턴포스트는 북한을 희화화하지 않고 있다.WaPo 사이트에 대한 광고 차단을 비활성화하고 WP의 기사를 읽으십시오.나는 "알선수재"라는 용어는 중립적이고 합의된 것이라고 생각한다고 썼다.기사에서 의견 일치를 보기 위해 토크 페이지에서 토론을 해야 한다(모든 사람을 위한 단어들이다).
- 또 다른 예시야 어쨌든 난 그렇게 하지 않을 거야.제프 베조스는 내 도움 없이 그냥 해야 할 것이다.하지만 요점은 그게 아니다.위키백과(다른 언어에도 불구하고) 뉘앙스를 잘 알고 있다는 것은 알지만, 이것은 당신의 입장에서 체계적 화이트워싱에 관한 것이다.그리고 거기에 문제가 있다.전체적인 편집에서 학문적, 주류적 합의를 대표해야 하며 그렇지 않으면 편집이 여기서 환영받지 못하게 된다.El_C 23:20, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 잭 업랜드는 2020년 6월 3일 김정은 기사("김 위원장이 지도자가 된 이후 북한에 큰 변화는 없었다")에서 이 문장을 편집했다.2020년 6월 9일, 나는 (새로운 편집이 이루어졌기 때문에) 그 문장이 포함된 컨센서스 버전을 복원했다.나는 리더십에 대한 설명이 있을 때 "인격의 문화"라는 용어는 정확하지 않다고 생각한다."체계적인 화이트워싱"은 영어 위키피디아의 규칙이 아니기 때문에 나의 규칙 위반을 보여줘.
- WP:TE를 참조하십시오.북한이나 북한의 지도력을 보다 긍정적으로 보여주기 위한 단 하나의 목적으로 위키백과를 돌아다닐 수는 없다.나는 그것이 네가 하고 있는 일이라는 것을 제출한다.각 사례의 세부 사항은 이러한 편집의 누적 효과보다 덜 관련이 있다.El_C 14:46, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- орарора, 당신이 생각하는 것은 중요하지 않다.믿을 만한 소식통이 말하는 것은 그렇다.가이(도움말!) 14:49, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 서문에는 출처가 없었다.
- 잭 업랜드는 2020년 6월 3일 김정은 기사("김 위원장이 지도자가 된 이후 북한에 큰 변화는 없었다")에서 이 문장을 편집했다.2020년 6월 9일, 나는 (새로운 편집이 이루어졌기 때문에) 그 문장이 포함된 컨센서스 버전을 복원했다.나는 리더십에 대한 설명이 있을 때 "인격의 문화"라는 용어는 정확하지 않다고 생각한다."체계적인 화이트워싱"은 영어 위키피디아의 규칙이 아니기 때문에 나의 규칙 위반을 보여줘.
- 또 다른 예시야 어쨌든 난 그렇게 하지 않을 거야.제프 베조스는 내 도움 없이 그냥 해야 할 것이다.하지만 요점은 그게 아니다.위키백과(다른 언어에도 불구하고) 뉘앙스를 잘 알고 있다는 것은 알지만, 이것은 당신의 입장에서 체계적 화이트워싱에 관한 것이다.그리고 거기에 문제가 있다.전체적인 편집에서 학문적, 주류적 합의를 대표해야 하며 그렇지 않으면 편집이 여기서 환영받지 못하게 된다.El_C 23:20, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 글에서 위반을 하지 않았다.워싱턴포스트는 북한을 희화화하지 않고 있다.WaPo 사이트에 대한 광고 차단을 비활성화하고 WP의 기사를 읽으십시오.나는 "알선수재"라는 용어는 중립적이고 합의된 것이라고 생각한다고 썼다.기사에서 의견 일치를 보기 위해 토크 페이지에서 토론을 해야 한다(모든 사람을 위한 단어들이다).
- 나는 그것이 첫 번째 소식통의 말을 미백하고 있다고 생각한다. BBC가 쓰는 것처럼 우리가 진정한 "체계적 학대"에 대해 이야기하고 있다는 것에 의심의 여지가 없다고 생각한다.와포 출처는 페이월 뒤에 있어서 읽을 수가 없어서 아무 쓸모가 없어.El_C 20:39, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 합의되지 않은 편집인 2020년 6월 7일 이전에는 "거부"라는 단어에 대한 공감대가 존재했다.합의되지 않은 편집, 2020년 6월 11일 이후, 토크 페이지에서 토론을 시작했다.그리고 그 기사에서, 비협의 버전 홍보를 위한 편집 전쟁을 시작했다.이 소식통에 따르면 컨센서스 버전은 '알선수재'라는 단어를 사용한다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарара рарарора
- Охранник Леса, consensus can change, especially if we're talking about 2018.내용은 출처와 일치해야 한다, 그것이 요점이다.El_C 19:47, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 2018년 6월 24일 방갈라마니아마데 편집은 "알렉토리얼"이라는 단어를 사용했다.합의되지 않은 편집을 거쳐 2020년 6월 13일 합의판을 돌려주었다.워싱턴포스트는 "KNCA의 모욕은 북한 내 반인륜적 범죄 의혹을 제기한 유엔 보도를 불신하려는 광범위한 시도의 일환으로 보인다"고 썼다.그리고 토크페이지에 글을 올렸는데, "법정"이라는 용어는 중립적이며, UN, HRW, AI에 의한 인권침해 혐의가 입증되거나 입증되지 않는다는 것을 의미하지 않는다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарора рарора
- Охранник Леса, this is a violation of tendentious and disruptive editing.BBC 소스는 '시스템적 남용'이라는 제목의 섹션 헤더를 가지고 있기 때문에, 새로운 추가에 기존 소스를 사용할 수 없다.그것은 허용되지 않는다.그런 편집은 더 이상 하지 않으면, 나는 너를 영어 위키백과에서 무한정 차단할 준비가 되어 있다.El_C 17:15, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- Охранник Леса, your only edits here are to North Korea related articles (and you're doing the same thing on uk.위키피디아)를 무기한 차단한 후, 단지 그것 때문에 러시아 위키피디아로부터 주제를 금지되었다.여기서도 막히기 전에 다른 과목에 대한 당신의 에너지를 다시 생각하고 방향을 돌려야 할 것이다. -- uktalk 17:30, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 블록은 위키피디아의 손상이나 혼란을 막기 위해 사용하는 것이지 사용자를 처벌하기 위해 사용하는 것이 아니다.나를 상대로 한 블록의 도입을 선언하는 나의 규칙 위반을 보여줘라.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарора рарора
차단됨
이상에 비추어 볼 때, 나는 위와 같이 145개의 편집, 또는 이와 관련된 거의 모든 종류의 건방진 편집이 위키피디아에 긍정적이 되거나 심지어 유용한 의사소통을 할 가능성이 있다고 생각하지 않는다.그러므로 나는 WP에 의해 무기한으로 그것들을 차단하고 있다.TE 및 WP:IDHT. 동의하지 않는 관리자는 누구나 차단을 해제할 수 있다.만약 사람들이 그것이 당분간 가치가 있다고 생각한다면, 아래에서 제안된 금지 주제는 여전히 논의될 수 있다. 샌드스타인 19:08, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
Proposal (Охранник Леса)
и а topic и и는 북한과 관련된 기사에서 무기한 금지된 주제로서, 대체로 해석된다.가이 (도움말!) 15:17, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 제안자로서의 지원.Охранник Леса is already TBANned on ruWP for the same issue, and I think we can all now see why.가이 (도움말!) 15:17, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 논평) 우리가 토픽밴드를 해야 할 타당한 이유가 있기 때문에 지원한다.그리고 Per Guy (JzG).서명,4호선 2020년 6월 19일(UTC) 15:42[
- 지지하다.응, 이 동의가 필요할 것 같아.El_C 16:21, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 지지하다.나는 심지어 이 주제 금지 조차도 충분히 멀리 가지 못할까 봐 두려워.I encourage Охранник Леса to listen to what they are being told and consider this an opportunity to approach editing differently, in a more collaborative manner. --Yamla (talk) 17:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- 내가 규칙을 어긴 곳에서 링크를 제공하라.토크 페이지 토론에 참여했고, 공감대를 이어가며 믿을 만한 자료를 제공했다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарара
- Please don't bludgeon the discussion with repetition, Охранник Леса.El_C 19:28, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
рара
- 내가 규칙을 어긴 곳에서 링크를 제공하라.토크 페이지 토론에 참여했고, 공감대를 이어가며 믿을 만한 자료를 제공했다.орарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарарара
- Guy와 El C당 지원.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 19:13, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- Comment Охранник Леса has been indeffed it looks like.RickinBaltimore (대화) 19:27, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 주석 - 지시된 대로 가까운 곳을 제안하십시오.Jusdafax (대화) 19:34, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
아레프랑키스에 대한 호킹 우려
강타자 오툴, 경솔한 보도를 하고 있으니 그만둬야 한다.신의를 믿고 계속해 주시오.El_C 20:32, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
거의프랜치스는 2018년 12월 23일 첫 등기 편집에 들어갔다.총 편집량이 600개에 육박하는 그는 그 이전 1년 반 동안처럼 지난 3개월 동안 활동했다.3월 이후 그가 편집한 거의 모든 편집은 어떤 식으로든 나와 연관되어 있으며, 거의 모든 것이 나를 반대하기 위해 연결되어 있다.우리가 편집하는 부분에서 비슷한 관심사를 가지고 있다면, 그건 정말 좋은 일이다.내가 그에게 전에 말했듯이, 나는 다양한 관점과 편집자를 갖는 것이 기사가 향상되는 방법이라고 생각한다.그러나 그는 나와 같은 기사만 편집하는 것이 아니다.
그는 나를 따라 다른 사용자들의 토크 페이지로 올라가고 있다.그는 실수를 찾기 위해 나의 편집 이력을 뒤지고 있다.우리가 동의하지 않고 내가 그 문제를 게시판에 올려서 추가 의견을 냈을 때, 그는 내 의견을 편집해서 디프를 제거했다.내가 ANI의 한 행정관에 대해 불평을 하자, 그는 토론에 핑계를 대지 않고 논쟁에 관여하지 않았음에도 불구하고 내가 더 잘했어야 할 일을 내게 말했다.
내가 TBAN을 어필하려고 하자, 그는 끼어들기로 결심했다.사실 그는 그 실에서 나를 제외한 그 누구보다도 더 많은 논평을 했다.다시 그는 토론에 ping을 받지 않았고, 원래의 TBAN 토론에 참여하지도 않았으며, 그것을 초래한 기사를 편집하지도 않았다.내가 어떤 식으로든 관여하지 않은 사안에 대해 중재를 요청하자, 그는 나를 따라 사건까지 왔을 뿐만 아니라, 자신을 당사자로 삼기로 했다.TBAN 항소심에서 오핀을 본 적이 없어그는 내가 아직 게시하지 않은 게시판에서 정기적으로 토론하는 사람이 아니다.여기서 유일한 공통분모는 나다.
최근 내가 마음에 들지 않는 편집을 몇 번 했을 때, 그는 먼저 자신이 하고 있는 일이 호걸로 해석될 수 있다는 것을 인정하면서, 그가 동의할 것으로 생각했던 다른 편집자를 소환했다.그런 다음 그는 "이 버전이 더 좋다"라는 설명 없이 대부분의 수정 사항을 철회했다.
지적했듯이, 그의 생애의 대부분은 3월부터 편집되었다.그 당시 그의 메인 스페이스 편집은 거의 한 편도 세 편의 기사 중 한 편이었다.모두 내가 주요 기고자로 활동해 온 기사들이다.거의 모든 편집은 어떤 식으로든 나를 반대하기 위한 것이었다.BearFrancis는 새로운 기사를 쓰기 위해 여기에 있는 것이 아니다.그는 그들을 확장하기 위해 여기에 있는 것이 아니다.그는 기사들을 GA나 FA 지위에 올리거나, 편집이나 다른 어떤 것을 복사하기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니다.지난 몇 달 동안 그의 거의 유일한 목적은 내 작품을 다시 확인하는 것이었다.몇 가지 예외는 있지만 많지는 않다.푸데오도 아브컴에서 테레프란치스가 나를 따라다니는 것을 눈치채고 그것을 언급했다.
나는 그의 토크 페이지에 최대한 친근하게 우려를 제기하려고 노력했다.ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ그리고 나서 그는 나의 토크 페이지에 내가 불신임을 비난하는 메시지를 남겼다.이제 이 중 어느 것도 BearFrancis가 항상 틀렸다고 말하는 것은 아니다.때때로 그가 옳다.가끔 내가 틀릴 때가 있다.때로는 그의 편집이 내 편집보다 개선되는 경우도 있다. (그리고 생애 편집이 비교적 적은 사람에게는 정책과 절차를 유난히 잘 파악한다.)하지만, 나는 그가 개선해야 할 프로젝트의 다른 한 구석도 발견하지 못했다는 것을 믿기 어렵다.나만 불완전한 편집자가 될 수는 없다. --슬러거 오툴 (대화) 19:56, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 여기 긴 버전이 있다.슬러거, 네가 전에 편집한 유일한 토크 페이지에서, 너는 나에 대해 언급하지 않았고 내가 관련된 이슈에 대해 토론하지 않았니?의논할 거면 나한테 핑계를 대지 말았어야 했어?티반 토론은 내가 보는 공개 게시판에서 했는데 당신은 부정한 방법으로 나를 언급했다.공개 게시판에 올려져 있었고 다른 사용자 수십 명을 호출했음에도 불구하고 나에게 전화를 걸지 않고 나를 논의했다는 것에 동의하는가?TBAN 제거를 요청하면 관심 있는 편집자들이 TBAN의 기능에 대해 의견을 개진할 수 있다.공평하게 말하자면, 나는 내가 편집한 적이 없는 기사를 보았고 당신의 POV 문제가 단지 당신이 소속되어 있는 조직에 얽매여 있는 것이 아니라 당신이 소속되어 있는 학교라는 것을 보여주었다.이것은 Tban이 제거되지 않아야 할 뿐만 아니라 연장되어야 한다고 믿게 한다.그리고 나서 나는 기사에서 POV 문구를 삭제하는 작업을 시작했다.아레프랑시스 (대화) 20:13, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 음, 이건 CNTRL-V를 친게 아니라 CNTRL-C를 친게 분명 실수야?아레프랑시스 (대화) 20:22, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
EC의 가능성 때문에 실수로 삭제된 것 같은 내 의견을 여기에 다시 입력하십시오.나는 다른 사용자들이 편집상의 실수를 바로잡은 것에 대해 제재를 받기 위해 보고서를 오용한 OP에 대한 관리자 보고 페이지의 부메랑 금지를 제안한다.발레린스 (대화)20:25, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
70.19.65.88에 의한 법적 위협
(비관리자 폐쇄) 서명됨, The4line 20:56, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
법적 위협을 보고하면서 IP 70.19.65.88은 2020년 6월 19일 Talk:Ku Klux Klan#Semi로 보호되는 편집 요청에 의해 만들어졌다.JTP 20:52, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
수이(성명)
사용자가 행동에 대해 사과함 | |
모니터 할 것이다. -- Alexf(talk) 22:47, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
수이(수이)를 또 한번 눈독을 들이고 싶다.User:Prisencolin은 계속 되돌아오고, 3RR에 가까워지고, 레드 링크를 추가하고, 다른 위키백과에 링크를 추가한다.되돌아가서 왜 우리가 리스트에서 원하지 않는지 말해줬고 내가 보기엔 끔찍한 모욕감을 줬어유대인이자 이 특별한 순간에 나는 이 모욕을 심각하게 받아들이고 그에게 그렇게 말했다.이러한 개입과 (내가 바로잡은) 이름 부르기 때문에, 나는 그 문제에 대해 공정하기 어려울 것이기 때문에 그 문제에서 스스로 물러나고 싶다. -- Alexf(talk) 00:04, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 그들의 기여를 살펴봤는데 SPA의 냄새가 나더군.MiasmaTernalTALK 01:08, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 그 이름은 부적절하고 현명하게 삭제되었다. 하지만 알렉스프 너희 둘 다 그 페이지에서 편집하고 있었다.나는 그의 토크 페이지에 경고를 올렸다.리즈 05:31, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- @알렉스f: 내 말에 진심으로 사과하고 싶었다.이런 종류의 행동은 21세기 어느 곳이나 이런 편집 커뮤니티에서는 용납할 수 없다.편집 분쟁과 관련해서는 레드링크 대신 페이지를 만들어 우려사항을 해결했으니, 특정 이슈가 해결됐으면 좋겠다.—프리젠콜린 (대화) 04:20, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
사용자의 추가 권한 취소 관련:위키백과의 비쇼넨
비시에 의한 학대 없음.OP 차단됨.부평으로서, 아마도 스트레스를 받을 때는 ANI에 있을 때가 아닐 것이다.물론, ANI에 있을 시간이 없을 것이다...78.26 16:57, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자:Bishonen은 금지된 사용자:스콜라M은 단지 비쇼넨과 말다툼을 했다고 해서.이 사용자가 위키피디아에 대한 관리자 권한을 이용해 인신공격의 복수를 한 것은 분명한 예다.사용자 비쇼넨에 대한 금지나 관리자 권한의 취소 등이 시급하다.
User Bishonen이 먼저 인신공격하였고 ScholarM은 개인적으로 Bishonen을 공격하지 않았다 — 2409:4042:E9F:14B0:0:0:6D08:E613 (토크) 16:16, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
관련 관리자는 이 문제를 잘 살펴보십시오.
- (충돌 편집) IP, 다음을 사용하여 주석에 서명하십시오.
~~~~
편집 충돌을 중지하십시오.{{31}{{25A(대화)}}} 16:19, 2020년 6월 21일(UTC)[ - IP가 갑자기 그런 보고서를 만들었다고?꽤 의심스럽다.굿데이 (토크) 16:14, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
- 아마도 여기서 불만을 제기하기 위해 로그아웃한 ScholarM의 편집 특권이 취소될 필요가 있을 것이다.비쇼넨은 인신공격은 하지 않았다.아크로테리온 (대화) 16:17, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
- 주제 금지는 (i) 중재 집행 (ii) 충분히 정당화된 것 같다 (ii) "그들은 비쇼넨과 논쟁했다" (iv) 비쇼넨이 연루되어 있다는 의구심 때문이 아니라, 원칙적으로 타당할 수 있다, 사용자의 토크 페이지에서 길게 논의된 바 있으며, 그녀가 관련되지 않았다는 주장은 내게는 꽤 납득이 가는 것 같다.ymblanter (대화) 16:19, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
@Ymblanter: 출발과 스터브 등 B급과 C급 지위가 있는 17개의 유효한 기사를 만들어냈기 때문에 학자M에서 블록을 끌어올리는 것이 좋다.
@아크로테리온:여기서 판사가 되지 말아줘.어떻게 당신이 로그아웃하고 꽤 바보같은 불평을 하는 사람이 ScholarM이라고 말할 수 있지? 만약 증거가 있다면 그걸 증명해봐.
- 제발, 게시물에 서명해줘.굿데이(토크) 16:24, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
- (갈등 편집)
우리는 심판관이다.우리는 증거를 조사한다.마음에 안 들면 다른 곳으로 신고해.- 3125A, 존중하지만, 행정관은 판사(또는 경찰, 변호사, 또는 그런 종류의 것)가 아니다.그리고 내가 틀렸다면 고쳐줘, 하지만 난 네가 행정관이 아니라고 생각해.게시판에 그런 식으로 글을 쓰는 건 식은 거 아냐?GirthSummit (blether) 16:34, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
- 불가피한 결과가 주제 금지가 되기 전에 편집자가 자기 출판되고 신뢰할 수 없는 출처 사용을 중단하라고 몇 번이나 말해야 할지 모르겠다. 이 경우는 완벽하게 정당해 보인다.오, 그리고 인신공격은 없었다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 16:52, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
IP 블록
IP 차단 –Davey2010Talk 10:30, 2020년 6월 22일(UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
안녕, LTA인 관리인 블록 2.127.78.222가 좋을 수 있을까? 이 사람이 포기하지 않아서 범위 차단이 더 좋을지 확실치 않아, 위 보고서를 참고하십시오. 위키백과:관리자_공지판/사고자#IP_rangeblock, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 19:42, 2020년 6월 21일(UTC)[
완료 - IP 차단됨, Nick Moyes 고마워
아프아9
아프아9(토크 · 기여)는 그들의 사용자 토크 페이지에 적의 비밀 목록을 보관하고 있는 것으로 보인다.이것은 위키피디아의 목적과 일치하지 않으므로 제거되어야 한다.나는 사용자를 참여시키려 했지만, 리스트[1]에 대한 설명을 계속 거부했다.닥터케이(토크) 21:03, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
아르도벨로의 파괴적 편집
Vacuum bell에서 홍보물로 이미지 변경을 중지하도록 사용자에게 여러 번 요청한 후 사용자는 변경 사항을 계속 되돌리고 대화 페이지를 비우십시오.사용자를 진공 벨([사용자 대화: 대화) 11:08, 2020년 6월 20일(UTC) - Canolanext가 추가한 서명되지 않은 이전 설명(대화 • 기여)
- 둘 다 WP:3RR을 넘는군
더 많은 반전을 하는 대신에, 두 사람 모두 제3의 의견을 고려하거나 의학부 위키피디아 주제와 같은 어딘가에 물어보십시오.또한, 의도하지 않은 것은 분명하지만 소아외과 연구에 추가한 설명에는 그 결과가 정확하게 나와 있지 않다.이 페이지에서는 마지막 부분이 주제에서 벗어난다. 기사에서 토론하게 되어 기쁘다. -- Eurialus (대화) 11:28, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
NVTHELLossa엔벨로
차단됨 | |
24시간 동안 닌자 로보트피레이트에 의해 차단됨.샌드닥터 14:59, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
엔벨로 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
이 사용자가 해피버(Marshmello와 Bastille 노래)에서 소스 없이 장르를 바꾸거나 추가하는 것을 처음 알았다.이들의 기여도는 모두 이러한 비협조적인 변경으로 구성되며, 수준 4 경고에 도달한 후에도 계속 변경되었다.사용자도 토론을 거부하는 것 같다.잘렌 폴프 (대화) 18:09, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
사용자가 알 수 없음: 영구 복사 및 편집 워링
차단됨 | |
GeneralNotability에 의해 무기한 차단됨.@GoodDay: 당신이나 다른 누군가가 온두라스200010의 삭푸페리를 의심한다면, WP에 파일:온두라스200010을 마스터로 사용하고 의심스러운 양말(및 증거)을 포함한 SPI. --Sand Doctor 15:01, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
편집 전쟁으로 두 번째 블록에서 막 벗어난 온두라스200010(토크·기여)이 온두라스에서 3RR을 깨고, 여러 저작권이 있는 자료를 반복적으로 추가하고 있다.그들은 개념을 망각한 듯 하고, 그들의 토크 페이지에 있는 수많은 경고에도 아랑곳하지 않는 것 같다. --IamNotU (대화) 23:53, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 그는 지난 5월 48시간 2주 동안 같은 행동을 하면서 꽤 오랫동안 이 일을 해 왔다.굿데이 (토크) 00:02, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 외설스럽지만, 그들은 일단 그들이 무엇을 잘못했는지 이해하고 다시는 그러지 않을 것이라는 것을 행정관에게 납득시킬 수 있다면 기꺼이 돌아올 것이다.GeneralNotability (대화) 00:23, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
108.14.43.250
WP:DUCK 사용자 계정:피터잭1.Peter의 마지막 계정인 User:스미스0124는 차단되었고, 같은 주제를 편집했으며, 울프가 인포박스에서 제거하기를 원했는데, 피터잭1은 토크:2012 민주당 대통령 예비선거에서 스미스0124로 널리 주장되었다.블록을 요청하십시오.쿠피네이터 (대화) 10:48, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
IP 범위 블록
차단됨 | |
QEDK에 의해 3개월 동안 범위가 차단되고 마지막 IP가 별도로 차단됨. --The Sand Doctor 17:46, 2020년 6월 20일(UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
안녕, 다니엘 케이스가 최근에 양말이라고 2.123.46.136을 막아서 다니엘에게 이메일을 보냈는데 기본적으로 Sable332는 양말장이 아니라 LTAer를 발견한 사람이어서 여기로 오라고 추천했어.
오늘 IP는 2.123.39.188로 반환되었고 2.125.184.101로 반환되었으므로 범위 블록을 적용할 수 있는가?
FYI User_talk에서 토론이 있었다.TKOIII#Ford_Fiesta는 동일한 IP/사람이 참여하여 한동안 이러한 현상이 지속되어 온 것으로, Thanks, Aween, –Davey2010Talk 19:16, 2020년 6월 18일(UTC)[
67.245.249.141
리턴 | |
현재 추가 조치가 필요하지 않다.이것이 지속되면 재신고. --Sand Doctor 17:52, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
이 IP는 단지 대화 페이지에 혼란스럽고 파괴적인 발언을 하는 것 같다.[2] 바콘드럼 (대화) 05:26, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
- 지난 두 번의 편집 사이에는 2년 반 이상이 걸려 있어서, 되돌리기만 하면 될 것 같아.나는 그것이 지속되지 않는 한 관리 조치가 필요하지 않다고 본다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 05:31, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
카지미에 라흐노비치의 미개하고 공격적인 행동
비록 그것은 단지 토크 페이지 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_Lithuania#Merging_the_Belarusian_Pahonia_and_Lithuanian_Vytis_together?,에 불과하지만 나는 문명화된 행동에 대한 요건이 남아 있어야 한다고 믿는다.카지미에 라흐노비치는 미개한 행동을 여러 번 보여주었고, 논쟁의 부족은 동의적인 표현과 미개한 행동으로 "보완"되었다.최소 WP 이상 명확한 Viloation:적어도 Civil은.— Ke an (대화 • 기여) 04:11, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
- 나는 사용자 Ke An이 위키피디아를 중단해야 한다고 믿는다.괴롭힘#위키호킹의 나.나는 그에게 내 조국을 모욕하려 했기 때문에 그와 어떤 것도 논의하지 않겠다고 분명히 말했다(이러한 주장은 벨라루스인이 리투아니아인이고 리투아니아인이 벨라루스인이라는 주장을 하는 벨라루스의 가성론 '리티비니즘'에 속한다). 벨라루스의 현재 상태는 1991년에야 중세에 리투아니아인들이 점령했던 옛 루테니아 땅에 확립되었다. 이전에 점령했던 영토는 리투아니아의 무장으로 통치되었지만 그렇다고 그들이 상속자가 되는 것은 아니다.그러나 그는 나를 괴롭히고 도발하려 했다(이용자 카지미에 라흐노비치는 리투아니아와 리투아니아 사람들과 관련된 페이지를 공격하여 위키백과를 폴링하는 것 같다. 위키백과의 '빛비니즘'의 전형적이고 슬픈 사례다.)사용자:Ke an이 위키백과에 대해 처벌받기를 원하는 경우:괴롭힘#위키호킹, 해야 돼.그러나 나는 단지 이 유저에게 시간이 없다고 설명만 부탁한다. --카지미에 라흐노비치 (토크) 07:57, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 두 사용자 모두 정말 정확하다.케안은 리투아니아인 홀로코스트(유대인 대학살) 가해자를 희화화시키면서 한때 편집전으로 막혔던 극단적 리투아니아 민족주의자다.카지미에 라흐노비치는 벨로루시 민족주의자로, 우리의 WP 정책을 무시한 벨로루시 지명을 밀어붙이던 그룹의 일부(그리고 아마도 계속될 것으로 추정됨)이다.공통 이름.그들은 또한 왜 그런지 정확히 알 수는 없지만, 이전에 차단되었다.동유럽 정치의 멋진 세계에 온 것을 환영한다.--ymblanter (대화) 11:56, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
- 임블란터에게, 만약 당신의 논평이 또한 문명화된 세계와 위키피디아의 규칙을 따른다면 도움이 될 것이다.언어적 격언과 모욕이 당신의 가장 강한 면일 수도 있지만, 여기서는 필요하지도 않고, 도움도 되지 않는다. -- Ke an (talk) 19:42, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
IZAK에 의한 전쟁, 질식 및 탐문 편집
닫힘 | |
IZAK는 오래되고 가치있는 기여자이다.이에 대한 다른 측면은 그가 WP:NPOV와 같은 정책을 이해하기를 기대한다는 것이다. 이 논의에서 네 가지 항목이 두드러진다.
이런 것들이 부적절했다는 최소한의 현실적인 논쟁들이 있고, 어떤 경우에는 다른 편집자들에게 불쾌감을 주기도 한다.제재할 수 있는 수준까지 올라갔는지, 그렇다면 그 제재는 어떤 것이 돼야 하는지를 놓고 상당한 차이가 있다.IZAK의 종교적 대 역사적 장학금, 그리고 다양한 계층의 유대인 장학금에 대한 타당한 우려가 제기되었다.위키피디아는 경험적 사실에 근거한다.만약 역사적 사실이 종교적인 진실과 모순된다면, NPOV는 심지어 종교적인 진실을 묘사할 때에도 역사적 사실의 관점에서 우리가 쓰도록 요구한다.신념이 이단적인지 여부와 같은 의견의 문제에서, 위키피디아는 종교적 진리의 결정자가 아니며, 보편적으로 합의된 표준적 권한이 없는 경우, NPOV는 경쟁적 관점이 그 중요성에 따라 표현될 것을 요구한다.2진수인 범주는 일반적으로 이것에 적합하지 않다. 관련 없는 의견(예: 실제 이슈를 다루기보다는 IZAK에 대한 지지나 반대를 표명한 의견)을 할인해 보면, 다음과 같은 것이 표현된 커뮤니티의 견해를 요약한 것으로 보인다.
나는 유대인 편집자들을 포함한 IZAK의 행위에 대한 지역사회의 불편함의 정도를 내가 읽은 것에 근거하여 경고하는 한편, 수많은 편집자들이 그 행위가 터무니없지 않고 내용 문제가 합법적인 모호성을 포함하고 있기 때문에 어떤 차단이나 금지도 거부했다는 것을 인식했다. 나는 특히 정책 및 판례에 근거하지만 주제 금지 또는 차단에 대한 명확한 합의 부족에 근거하여 범주 문제에 대한 잘 논의된 조치 지원에 대한 편집 제한의 근거를 둔다.이것은 편집에 대한 구체적인 견해를 반영하고 콘텐츠에 영향을 미치는 비종교적인 문제를 다루는 최소한의 것으로 보인다.가이(도움말!) 20:16, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라 |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
IZAK는 최근 <출애굽기>의 학술적 해석에 반하는 편집작업을 하고 있다.
또한 그들은 WP를 캐스팅했다.ASPERSIONs는 그들의 변화에 반대하는 편집자들이 반제목적이라는 것을 암시함으로써 [6].
그들은 또한 WP에 참여하려고 시도했다.기사에 포함되지 않은 복수의 편집자의 COVERING [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12].
이 모든 것은 특히 WP에 관한 위키피디아의 소싱 정책에 대한 명백한 이해 부족으로 인해 복잡해진다.RSPSCRIPTURE 및 WP:Primary는 2002년부터 위키피디아에 접속했음에도 불구하고 [13]에서 Talk:의 토론을 참조한다.엑소더스#사용자 대화뿐만 아니라 또 다른 신화:에르멘리히#WP:NPOV.--Ermenrich (대화) 12:48, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @Ermenrich:(1) 나는 선의로 편집한 "전쟁을 편집"한 적이 없다.나는 WP:3RRR, (2)를 위반하지 않았고, 어느 누구도 "반제적"이라고 부르지 않았다. (3) 사용자:Ermenrich는 WP의 태도를 보여준다.출애굽기 기사에서 소유하고, 내 요점은 그가 알레르기가 있는 것처럼 보이는 몇몇 유대인 연구 내용을 기사의 선두에 소개하는 것이었다.(4) 내가 WP를 위반해 본 적이 없다:NPOV 및 WP:RS. (5) 사용자:에르멘리히는 랍비닉 유대교에 분명한 적개심을 갖고 있으며 정통 유대교의 관점을 무시한다.IZAK (대화) 15:34, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 당신이 내가 "정교파 유대인의 관점을 숭상하라"고 말할 때, 당신은 그것이 당신의 종교적 신념에 위배된다는 이유로 그 주제에 대한 진지한 학술적 관여의 기사를 왜곡하거나 라이벌 유대인 집단에 이단이라고 이름 붙이려는 당신의 노력에 반대한다는 것을 의미한다.이 두 가지 모두 NPOV 위반의 정의다.기사에 새로운 내용이 없다고 소개한 것은, 내가 보기엔.--에르멘리히(토크) 15:55, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @에르멘리히:유대교 교문에 대한 유대교적 접근법은 출애굽기 같은 기사에서 정당화된다.주제나 기사를 소유하라.나는 선두에서 몇 마디만 편집하다가 한 단락을 옮겼다.나는 어떤 것도 폄하하지 않고, 그것이 당신이 하고 있는 일이고, 유대교와 기독교의 관점을 후일 논평들을 삽입함으로써 그들 자신의 본문에 폄하하고 있다.당신은 나에게 충분한 시간을 주지 않았고 WP:이 주제에 대한 유대인과 기독교인의 공통된 견해에 대한 지식은 무시했다.현대 장학금은 비례하고 연대순으로 정렬되어야 한다.수레를 말 앞에 놓지 마라.고마워, IZAK (토크) 16:09, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 당신이 내가 "정교파 유대인의 관점을 숭상하라"고 말할 때, 당신은 그것이 당신의 종교적 신념에 위배된다는 이유로 그 주제에 대한 진지한 학술적 관여의 기사를 왜곡하거나 라이벌 유대인 집단에 이단이라고 이름 붙이려는 당신의 노력에 반대한다는 것을 의미한다.이 두 가지 모두 NPOV 위반의 정의다.기사에 새로운 내용이 없다고 소개한 것은, 내가 보기엔.--에르멘리히(토크) 15:55, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- [14] 요약 편집:
그것은 신화가 아니며, 수백만
명의유대인과 10억 명의 기독교인들이 그것이 사실이라고 믿고
있다. 즉, 어떤 것이 존재한다는 것은 분명히 가능하다고 믿는 것이다.이것은 그들의 편집에 좋지 않은 징조다.WP:경쟁력이 필요한가?스타쉽.페인트 (대화) 13:11, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 그러한 편집은 특히 경험이 많은 사용자에게 매우 부적절하다.IZAK는 학술적 합의에 부합하는 편집을 약속하거나 그러한 조항을 피할 필요가 있다.만약 그들이 그렇게 할 수 없다면, 그들은 주제에서 삭제될 필요가 있을 것이다.바나몽드 (토크) 15:04, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 논평 : 나는 이 토론이 <출애굽기>의 액션 직전에 이삭이 유대교의 헤레시라는 카테고리를 사두체([15], [16]) 기사에 추가하려고 했던 것도 이 토론과 관련이 있다고 생각한다.편향과 정책에 대한 이해 부족을 말해준다.--에르멘리히(토크) 15:11, 2020년 6월 11일(UTC)[
- 바나몽드에 의하면 아주 부적절한 말이 딱 들어맞는다.IZAK를 한 달 동안 The Extendors와 그 토크페이지에서 차단했어.만약 혼란이 다른 곳으로 옮겨간다면 분명히 추가 제재가 있을 수 있다.비쇼넨 tålk 15:23, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)
- 이삭은 매우 노련한 편집장이다.2005년에 ArbCom은 인신공격으로 그를 10일 동안 금지했다.위키백과:중재/IZAK 요청 한 달째 기사·토크페이지에서 막혔지만, 이번 공격 : "사용자 등 다수의 편집자:에르멘리히는 WP에서 연기를 해왔다.유대교와 관련된 기사들을 인정하고, 고전적인 유대인 해설자들과 장학금이 말하는 것을 부인하기 위해 전력을 다하라.네가 세속적인 반종교적 교수들을 인용할 수 있다는 것은 매우 좋은 일이지만, 그들은 유대 신학에 대해 잘 알고 있고, 성서적으로나 심지어 유대인들에 대해서라면 무엇이든 반대할 수 있는 도끼를 가지고 있을 뿐이다.그것은 현재" 그의 선거운동과 마찬가지로 받아들일 수 없다.내 생각에 어느 쪽이든 분명히 더 잘 알아야 할 사람에게 한 블럭이 될 수 있을 것 같은데, 두 사람이 함께 하는 것은 확실하다.더그 웰러가 15:27, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 나는 더그의 사이트 전체 블록 제안이 여기서 지원된다면 방해하지 않을 것이며, 나는 그 붕괴가 심각했다는 것에 확실히 동의한다.IZAK가 마지막으로 차단된 지 14년이 지났기 때문에 부분적인 차단만으로도 인상을 남길 수 있을 것 같다.비쇼넨 tålk 15:39, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 나는 IZAK가 선을 한참 벗어나 있었고, 이러한 위법행위가 반복되어서는 안 된다는 것에 동의한다.그러나 나는 지금으로서는 비쇼넨의 제재가 행정의 일관성을 위해서라면 다른 어떤 것도 할 수 없다고 생각한다.그래서 나는 지금 이 시점에서 추가 제재를 하는 것에 반대한다.나는 올해에만 4번 페이지를 보호해왔다는 점에 유의하십시오. 예외 없이 "myth"라는 단어에 대한 중단에 대해 항상 주의하십시오.El_C 16:08, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @El C: 내 문제는 그가 여전히 선거운동을 부인하거나 누군가가 "성서적, 심지어 유대인까지 모든 것에 반대할 수 있는 축"을 가지고 있다고 말하는 것은 그들이 반유대적이라는 것을 암시한다는 것이다.아니면 나 혼자만 이것을 보는 것일까?더그 웰러 토크 17:54, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 더그, 나는 당신의 제안에 전적으로 반대한다.특히 1년 전의 사건을 케케묵은 것으로 간주하는 아르브컴에 비추어 15년 전의 사건을 들춰내는 것은 특히 당시 WP가 얼마나 젊었는지를 생각하면 걱정스럽다.그것은 우리의 젊은 편집자들 중 몇몇이 나이가 든 것보다 더 오래되었다.물론, IZAK의 편집과 POV에 대한 강한 반대가 있다. 그리고 그것을 염두에 두고, 그가 기사에 추가하고자 하는 논쟁적인 자료들에 대해 높은 수준의 학술적 출처를 인용할 필요가 있다는 것은 분명하다. 그러나 우리는 이 사건에 대해 17 yr. 베테랑 편집자 - 10년과 15년의 영향을 받은 사례에 대해 사이트를 차단하는 것을 고려해야만 한다.오래된 사건들 - 단순히 내게는 상상할 수 없고, 행동과 비례하지도 않는다.필자가 이번 사건의 근거가 된다고 생각하는 내용을 논하지는 않겠지만, POV 대 IZAK의 POV를 지지하는 수준 높은 학술적 출처를 가진 한쪽이 관련된 POV 논란이 있다는 것에는 의심의 여지가 없다. 적어도 그것이 나의 이해다.나는 그가 우리의 가이드라인에 따라 조사했다는 것에 동의하지 않는다. 그리고 나는 그가 증거당 3번 되돌릴 때 그가 왜곡된 편집을 했다는 것에 동의하지 않는다.나는 또한 우리가 케케묵은 사건들을 미래 행동을 미리 예측하는 근거로 고려해야 한다는 것에 동의하지 않는다. 왜냐하면 우리는 POV 크리프에게 문을 열어주는 편견에 기반한 예방책을 토론적으로 배치하고 있기 때문이다.나는 이번 사건에서 비쇼넨의 행동과 좋은 판단을 지지하며, 어떤 일이 일어나는지 지켜보자라는 입장을 취해 왔다.한 달 정도 후에 IZAK가 그 기사를 다시 보기로 결정한다면, 그는 그가 추가하고 싶은 어떤 자료라도 지원할 수 있는 높은 품질의 RS를 보유하는 것이 낫다는 것을 알고 있다. 그리고 그것은 그가 TP에 참여하기를 원하는 주장을 포함하고 있다.후자를 염두에 두고, 그는 아마도 잠재적인 오해와 반발을 피하기 위해 사전에 전문가의 조언을 구해야 할 것이다.AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 16일 14:28 (UTC)[
- 이 차이점은 IZAK가 WP:로그아웃됨.나르키 블러트 (대화) 15:34, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @Narky Blert: 나는 내 사용자 이름으로만 편집한다.그것은 어떤 경우에도 내가 아니었다.나는 그 결정에 따른다.IZAK (대화) 15:38, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @Bishonen: 기사에 금지된 것을 감안할 때, ANI에서 이 실에서 그가 원하는 변화를 계속 주장하는 IZAK의 적절성은 무엇인가?---에르멘리히 (토크) 16:23, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @에르멘리히:대답은 간단하다나는 그 블록이 부과되기 전에 대응할 기회가 주어지지 않았다.나는 그 결정이 내려진 후에 이 토론에 주목했다.그래서 나는 지금 사후적으로 나 자신의 정당방위 차원에서 말하고 있다.나는 어떤 경우에도 가까운 미래에 출애굽기 기사를 편집하지 않을 것이다.IZAK (대화) 16:37, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- Talk에서 기사 내용에 대해 토론할 시간이 많으셨습니다.이 블록이 부과되기 전의 엑소더스.이 토론이 여전히 열려 있는 유일한 이유는 사람들이 당신이 단지 이 기사를 편집하는 것을 막아야 하는지 아니면 블록이 더 넓어져야 하는지에 대해 토론할 수 있도록 하기 위해서지, 법정에서 당신에게 어떤 종류의 권리를 주기 위해서가 아니다.위키피디아에 있는 그 누구도 당신에게 벌금을 부과하거나 감옥에 가거나 사형선고를 내리거나 특정 웹사이트를 편집할 수 없다고 말하는 그 이상의 어떤 것도 할 수 있는 힘을 가지고 있지 않기 때문에, 이 곳에서는 그러한 권리가 필요하지 않다.필 브리저 (대화) 17:25, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @에르멘리히:대답은 간단하다나는 그 블록이 부과되기 전에 대응할 기회가 주어지지 않았다.나는 그 결정이 내려진 후에 이 토론에 주목했다.그래서 나는 지금 사후적으로 나 자신의 정당방위 차원에서 말하고 있다.나는 어떤 경우에도 가까운 미래에 출애굽기 기사를 편집하지 않을 것이다.IZAK (대화) 16:37, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
제안:유대교의 이단에 대한 주제 반
Since I filed this report, this long string of edits has come to my attention where IZAK has added the category Heresy in Judaism or Heresy in Orthodox Judaism to dozens of articles such as Reform Judaism, Jewish secularism, etc, even other religions such as Samaritanism: [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27].이러한 추가의 대부분은 매우 불쾌하고 유대인 운동을 왠지 진짜 유대인이 아닌 것으로 표시하는 역할을 한다.
정통 유대교도가 보유한 견해 이외의 견해에 직면할 때 볼 수 있는 바와 같이, (사용자 토크:에르멘리히#WP:NPOV, 대화:사두체#사두체는 유대교에 따르면 이단이다), IZAK는 그들이 유태인 주제에 명백한 POV 문제를 가지고 있다는 사실을 인지할 수 없다.따라서 <출애굽기>에서 한 달 블록 떨어진 곳 외에 유대교에서 이단이라는 주제로 주제를 금지할 것을 제안한다.-에르멘리히 (토크) 19:39, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @Ermenrich: 뻔한 것을 피하고 있다.모든 편집은 유효하며, 정교 유대교의 헤레시가 주장하는 바를 반영한다(NOTE, 나는 그 기사를 쓰지 않았다!). "나"가 아니다.당신에 따르면, 어떤 것에도 '이단'은 없지만, 유대교에는 단순히 유대교에서 '이단'이 있다(NOTE, 나는 기사를 쓰지 않았다!) WP의 모든 형태에 이단에 관한 기사가 있듯이, '이단순히 '이단'을 참조하라.카테고리에 세부 하위 카테고리가 있는 이단:불교에서의 이단, 카테고리:기독교의 이단, 그리고 카테고리:이단으로 유죄판결을 받은 사람들, 비데아(이슬람의 헤리시)와 마찬가지로 나도 카테고리를 만들었다.유대교와 범주의 이단:수년 전 정교회 유대교의 이단, 그리고 당신이 오기 전까지는 아무도 그것에 대해 어떤 문제도 겪지 않았고, WP의 목적은 그것이 다루는 주제에 대해 교육하는 것이다.현실 세계에 존재하는 것을 말하는 사람들을 공격하며 뛰어다닐 수는 없다.IZAK (대화) 20:19, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 개혁 유대교나 사마리아교에 '정교 유대교의 이단' 또는 '유대교의 이단'이라는 범주를 추가하는 것은 그러한 운동을 공격하기 위한 꽤 분명한 방법인데, 그 중 하나는 사실 유대교도 아니다.내가 다른 곳에서 말했듯이, "정교 유대교에서 이단적으로 보는 이단"은 문제가 되지 않는다는 취지의 언어를 어딘가에 추가하는 것이 한계 wp에 해당된다.하지만 이 범주는 은밀한 공격 범주로 사용되고 있다.다른 "이력" 범주에 대해서는 WP:ORTHUFFEXIST는 정당한 주장이 아니며, 기독교의 이단에도 주요 기독교 교파가 포함되어 있지 않으며, "세균주의"나 "모르는 크리스마스 전쟁"도 없다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.---에르멘리히 (대화) 20:27, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC) 하라
- @Ermenrich: 당신은 고전적인 일에 종사하고 있다. 메신저 반응을 죽이지 마라.다시 말하지만, 그것은 "나의" 관점이 아니라 정통 유대교의 관점이요, 그것은 내 잘못이 아니다.종교가 어떻게 작용하는지 이해하지 못하고 유대교의 다른 흐름과 그들이 서로를 어떻게 판단하는지에 대한 내면의 작용에 대해 전혀 알지 못한다.그것이 내가 WP에 보도하는 것이지, 정교회가 개혁을 이단으로 본다고 말하는 사람을 공격하는 것이 아니다.그것은 증명할 수 있는 사실의 진술이다.그리고 내가 WP에서 논의한 이단의 예를 단지 경찰에서 나온 "다른 것" 등으로 인용할 때 부인하지 말아달라.IZAK (대화) 20:45, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 내가 '기독교의 거짓 종교'라는 범주를 만들어 거기에 정통 유대교를 추가한다면 어떤 기분이 들겠는가.내 잘못이 아니라 기독교가 가르치는 거야!그게 어떻게 특별히 설득력 있는 주장이 아닌 지 알아?—에르멘리히 (대화) 20:49, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @에르멘리히: 제발 붉은 청어를 만들지 마!기독교는 유대교를 어머니(그리고 아버지) 종교로 여기는데, 어떻게 네가 하는 말이 이치에 맞을 수가 있어!WP에 모험을 걸지 마십시오.NOT MADEUP.나는 유대교를 "이단"으로 간주하는 어떤 심각한 기독교 장학금도 알지 못한다!아무도 "거짓" 종교에 대해 이야기하지 않고, 주제는 아피코어, 코퍼와 같은 유대교의 종교 용어인데, 로꼬의 개념과 용어를 이해하지 못하는 것은 내 잘못이 아니다.IZAK (대화) 20:58, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 내가 '기독교의 거짓 종교'라는 범주를 만들어 거기에 정통 유대교를 추가한다면 어떤 기분이 들겠는가.내 잘못이 아니라 기독교가 가르치는 거야!그게 어떻게 특별히 설득력 있는 주장이 아닌 지 알아?—에르멘리히 (대화) 20:49, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- @Ermenrich: 당신은 고전적인 일에 종사하고 있다. 메신저 반응을 죽이지 마라.다시 말하지만, 그것은 "나의" 관점이 아니라 정통 유대교의 관점이요, 그것은 내 잘못이 아니다.종교가 어떻게 작용하는지 이해하지 못하고 유대교의 다른 흐름과 그들이 서로를 어떻게 판단하는지에 대한 내면의 작용에 대해 전혀 알지 못한다.그것이 내가 WP에 보도하는 것이지, 정교회가 개혁을 이단으로 본다고 말하는 사람을 공격하는 것이 아니다.그것은 증명할 수 있는 사실의 진술이다.그리고 내가 WP에서 논의한 이단의 예를 단지 경찰에서 나온 "다른 것" 등으로 인용할 때 부인하지 말아달라.IZAK (대화) 20:45, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC)[
- 개혁 유대교나 사마리아교에 '정교 유대교의 이단' 또는 '유대교의 이단'이라는 범주를 추가하는 것은 그러한 운동을 공격하기 위한 꽤 분명한 방법인데, 그 중 하나는 사실 유대교도 아니다.내가 다른 곳에서 말했듯이, "정교 유대교에서 이단적으로 보는 이단"은 문제가 되지 않는다는 취지의 언어를 어딘가에 추가하는 것이 한계 wp에 해당된다.하지만 이 범주는 은밀한 공격 범주로 사용되고 있다.다른 "이력" 범주에 대해서는 WP:ORTHUFFEXIST는 정당한 주장이 아니며, 기독교의 이단에도 주요 기독교 교파가 포함되어 있지 않으며, "세균주의"나 "모르는 크리스마스 전쟁"도 없다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.---에르멘리히 (대화) 20:27, 2020년 6월 11일 (UTC) 하라
- 유대교의 이단 금지와 정교회 유대교의 이단 금지를 지지하는 주제가 대체로 해석된다.보수주의, 개혁주의, 재건주의 유대교가 위키피디아의 암묵적인 승인 도장을 가지고 이단으로 공식적으로 분류될 때, 그것은 매우 문제적이다.회당 계열의 대부분을 차지하는 종파를 이런 식으로 이단으로 분류하는 것은 대단히 부적절하다.그건 POV가 밀고 있는 거야.가난한 슐렘 딘을 생각해보자. 그는 수십 개의 유대인 유대교 종파 중 한 종파와 결별했기 때문에 "이단자"로 분류되었다.나는 우리가 프린지 종파와 극단주의적이고 독단적인 종교 지도자들이 이단이라고 부르는 어떤 범주의 사람들과 조직들을 가져서는 안 된다고 생각한다.IZAK는 이단 및 유대교와 관련된 중립적 관점에 따라 편집이 불가능함을 입증했다.컬렌렛328 3:37, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC) 하자[응답하라
- 태양 아래 있는 거의 모든 종교 종파는 다른 모든 종교 종파에게 '이단적'이다.그것이 종교의 본성이다, 그렇지 않다면 모두가 같은 것을 믿는 데 문제가 없을 것이기 때문이다.그럼 어떻게 할건가? 종교 A, B, C에 '이단' '이단' '이단' '이단' 범주를 추가해?스토니브룩(대화) 17시 30분, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 스토니브룩, 그럼 왜 주제가 그걸 분류하는걸 금지하지?조셉(talk) 경 17:43, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 종교집단을 다른 종교집단이 믿는 것(학계 등 독립적 평가가 아닌)에 따라 분류하는 것은 기본적으로 위키백과의 목소리로 후자의 종교관을 지지하는 것이다.정통 유대교에서는 유대교의 다른 분야를 이단적으로 생각할 수도 있지만, 그렇다고 해서 우리가 그들의 선례를 따르고 우리의 기사를 그렇게 표시해야 한다는 뜻은 아니다. — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- @HandThatFeeds: 그래서 해결책은 WP:AFD 및 WP:자네 말에 따르면 CFD라고 하더군아니면 단순히 되돌리기만 하면 된다. WP:COMPANTDISPUTE 그러나 주제 금지는 의미가 없다.학계는 정교회 유대교와 그것의 법과 개념은 그들의 모든 영광 속에 존재하며, 모든 것이 WP에서 제시될 수 있다는 것에 동의한다.NPOV도.그것은 명백해야 한다.IZAK (대화) 22:16, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 내 입에 말참견하지 마라.그리고 너의 논평은 내 요점을 완전히 무시한다.정통 유대교의 개념 WP:EXIST, 그러나 우리가 정교 유다주의가 믿는 것에 근거하여 유대교의 다른 종파들에 "이단"이라는 꼬리표를 적용한다는 뜻은 아니다.그들은 그들이 원하는 만큼 그들이 진정한 믿음이라고 믿는 것은 자유지만, 우리는 다른 종파의 기사에 그 라벨을 적용하지 않고 그들의 믿음을 효과적으로 지지한다.NPOV를 유지한다는 것은 범주를 다른 종파에 적용하지 않는다는 것을 의미한다.그 전에는 당신이 주제넘게 행동해야 하는지에 대한 문제에 대해 고민하지 않았었다.그러나 한 종파를 다른 종파의 믿음에 근거하여 "이단적"으로 분류하는 것이 중립적이지 않다는 것을 이해할 수 없다면, 주제 금지는 올바른 방법이다.— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:07, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 난 네 입에 아무것도 넣지 않을 거야.내가 쓴 것만 다시 읽으면 문제가 해결된다.그래서 네가 하는 말은 사실이 너에게 맞지 않을 때 검열하라는 거야.그것은 WP의 또 다른 예일 뿐이다.아이돈트라이크릿.그러면 WP의 다른 카테고리(예: 카테고리:기독교의 이단, 카테고리:불교에서의 이단, 카테고리:이단으로 유죄판결을 받은 사람들, 카테고리:자유 구역(사이언티컬로지), 이슬람의 헤레시를 위한 비데아(비데아) 어떻게든, 우리는 카테고리를 가지고 있지 않다.아직 이슬람교의 이단아.범주:이단이 존재하기 때문에 너는 그것을 없애기를 바라지 않을 것이다.IZAK (대화) 16:31, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 내 입에 말참견하지 마라.그리고 너의 논평은 내 요점을 완전히 무시한다.정통 유대교의 개념 WP:EXIST, 그러나 우리가 정교 유다주의가 믿는 것에 근거하여 유대교의 다른 종파들에 "이단"이라는 꼬리표를 적용한다는 뜻은 아니다.그들은 그들이 원하는 만큼 그들이 진정한 믿음이라고 믿는 것은 자유지만, 우리는 다른 종파의 기사에 그 라벨을 적용하지 않고 그들의 믿음을 효과적으로 지지한다.NPOV를 유지한다는 것은 범주를 다른 종파에 적용하지 않는다는 것을 의미한다.그 전에는 당신이 주제넘게 행동해야 하는지에 대한 문제에 대해 고민하지 않았었다.그러나 한 종파를 다른 종파의 믿음에 근거하여 "이단적"으로 분류하는 것이 중립적이지 않다는 것을 이해할 수 없다면, 주제 금지는 올바른 방법이다.— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:07, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- @HandThatFeeds: 그래서 해결책은 WP:AFD 및 WP:자네 말에 따르면 CFD라고 하더군아니면 단순히 되돌리기만 하면 된다. WP:COMPANTDISPUTE 그러나 주제 금지는 의미가 없다.학계는 정교회 유대교와 그것의 법과 개념은 그들의 모든 영광 속에 존재하며, 모든 것이 WP에서 제시될 수 있다는 것에 동의한다.NPOV도.그것은 명백해야 한다.IZAK (대화) 22:16, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 종교집단을 다른 종교집단이 믿는 것(학계 등 독립적 평가가 아닌)에 따라 분류하는 것은 기본적으로 위키백과의 목소리로 후자의 종교관을 지지하는 것이다.정통 유대교에서는 유대교의 다른 분야를 이단적으로 생각할 수도 있지만, 그렇다고 해서 우리가 그들의 선례를 따르고 우리의 기사를 그렇게 표시해야 한다는 뜻은 아니다. — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 스토니브룩, 그럼 왜 주제가 그걸 분류하는걸 금지하지?조셉(talk) 경 17:43, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 태양 아래 있는 거의 모든 종교 종파는 다른 모든 종교 종파에게 '이단적'이다.그것이 종교의 본성이다, 그렇지 않다면 모두가 같은 것을 믿는 데 문제가 없을 것이기 때문이다.그럼 어떻게 할건가? 종교 A, B, C에 '이단' '이단' '이단' '이단' 범주를 추가해?스토니브룩(대화) 17시 30분, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- Cullen328 당 지원.태그가 붙은 기사 자체가 이단(예: 문화유대주의)을 언급조차 하지 않는다면 이단 범주에 태그를 붙이는 것은 대단히 부적절하다고 말할 것이다.starship.paint (talk) 06:35, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 주제 금지에 반대하다. 납에서 중립적인 표현을 달성하는 것은 어렵다. 그리고 나는 어떤 것이 정당하다고 주장하기 보다는 납에서 어떤 종류의 모든 종류의 판단적인 용어들을 피하는 것이 최선이라고 항상 생각해 왔다.우리는 대다수가 결정적인 요소라고 가정할 수 없다.형용사 없이 아예 lead를 쓰도록 노력해야 한다고 생각한다.그것들은 소개로서 의미가 있다.어느 정도 정확성과 중립적인 의미에 접근하려면 글의 전체 공간이 필요하다.누군가에게...에서 이단 금지를 해야 한다고 말하는 것은 내가 개인적으로 동의하지 않기 때문에 금지를 해야 한다는 것을 의미한다.나는 항상 내가 동의하지 않는 그 주제에 대한 견해를 가진 누군가를 위해 주제 금지에 반대표를 던지곤 한다.자신이 동의하지 않는 주제의 관점이 있는 사람에 대한 주제 금지를 지지하는 것은 본질적으로 한 사람을 최소한 중립적이지 않은 사람으로 보이게 만드는 것이다. DGG (토크 ) 06:43, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
대체로Cullen328에 따른 지원.나는 IZAK의 최근 행동을 차단 해제 요청을 검토하기 위한 일환으로 검토해왔다.그리고 나는 오직 하나의 관점을 중립적이고 정직하게만 보는 것처럼 보이는 누군가를 만나고 있다. 그것은 자신의 종교적 신념과 일치한다.IAZK는 나에게 위키피디아를 편집하고 그러한 믿음을 반영하고 있는 것처럼 보인다.의도하지 않은 것은 분명하지만, 진실로 그들이 진실을 가지고 있다고 흔들림 없이 확신하는 많은 종교 신자들은 그들의 NPOV 위반을 볼 수 없다.우리는 위키피디아를 편집할 때 개인적인 신념을 한쪽으로 기울일 수 있고 NPOV를 고수할 수 있는 다양한 종교 배경을 가진 많은 사람들이 있지만 IZAK는 그들 중 하나가 아니다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 09:04, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[- 17년 동안의 내 편집 이력을 자유롭게 검토하여 내가 WP:NPOV를 지지하였음을 확인해 보십시오.때때로 WP:BEBOLD가 되는 것은 범죄가 아니다.IZAK (대화) 19:33, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 당신이 17년 동안 이곳에 있으면서 주요 종교 소식통에 근거하여 기사를 분류하는 문제를 볼 수 없다는 것(그리고, 당신의 토크 페이지의 우리의 짧은 대화에서, 편집 전쟁이 무엇인지조차 몰랐다)은 나에게 추가적인 걱정을 안겨준다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 08:23, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[ 하라 고 말했다.
- 제베디는 또 다른 우려에 대해 "IZAK [28]가 이러한 편집사항을 AFD 기사의 주요
개선사항
으로 간주할 것이라는 사실에 놀랐다"고 말했다.81개의 단어가 추가되었고, 언급은 없었다.신체의 약 5% 정도.이것이 어떻게 크게 개선될 수 있을까? 스타쉽.페인트 (대화) 14:35, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[ 하라- @Starship.paint:그렇다, 나는 그것이 어떻게 아주 확고한 종교적 신념에 의해 지시된 세계관이 사람들이 진정으로 뒤로 물러서서 더 넓은 그림을 보는 것을 어렵게 만들 수 있는지를 보여주는 추가적인 예라고 생각한다.나는 이 제안된 주제 금지가 필요하다고 확신한다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 17:29, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[
- @Boing! 제베디가 말했다.WP에 접하는 "아주 확고한 종교적 신념에 의해 지시된 세계관"이라고 말하는 것은 틀렸다.NPA, 내가 WP에서 17년 동안 한 기록이 당신의 주장을 반증하고 있기 때문에.좋은 유대인 교육은 WP 편집자로서 나의 배경과 자격증을 더 정확하게 설명하는 것이 될 것이다.IZAK (대화) 16:37, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- @IZAK: 진실에 대한 당신의 종교적 접근에 대한 비판을 인신공격으로 본다면, 그건 유감스럽지만 어쩔 도리가 없다.나는 "아주 확고한 종교적 신념에 의해 지시된 세계관"과 "좋은 유대인 교육" (또한 "좋은 무슬림/기독교인/힌두/기타 교육")을 동의어로 본다.나는 그것을 위키피디아가 요구하는 주류 세속적 접근법에 기초한다.위키피디아는 유대인 백과사전이 아니며, 유대인(또는 기독교인/무슬림/힌두인/등) 교육을 진리로 받아들일 수 없으며(그리고 앞으로도) 유대인(등) 신념을 위키피디아의 목소리에 사실로서 제시하지 않을 것이다.네가 이것을 볼 수 없다는 것(또는 받아들이지 않을 것이라는 것)은 정말 나를 실망시킨다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 17:46, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- @Boing! 제베디가 말했다.WP에 접하는 "아주 확고한 종교적 신념에 의해 지시된 세계관"이라고 말하는 것은 틀렸다.NPA, 내가 WP에서 17년 동안 한 기록이 당신의 주장을 반증하고 있기 때문에.좋은 유대인 교육은 WP 편집자로서 나의 배경과 자격증을 더 정확하게 설명하는 것이 될 것이다.IZAK (대화) 16:37, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- @Starship.paint:그렇다, 나는 그것이 어떻게 아주 확고한 종교적 신념에 의해 지시된 세계관이 사람들이 진정으로 뒤로 물러서서 더 넓은 그림을 보는 것을 어렵게 만들 수 있는지를 보여주는 추가적인 예라고 생각한다.나는 이 제안된 주제 금지가 필요하다고 확신한다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 17:29, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[
- 제베디는 또 다른 우려에 대해 "IZAK [28]가 이러한 편집사항을 AFD 기사의 주요
- 당신이 17년 동안 이곳에 있으면서 주요 종교 소식통에 근거하여 기사를 분류하는 문제를 볼 수 없다는 것(그리고, 당신의 토크 페이지의 우리의 짧은 대화에서, 편집 전쟁이 무엇인지조차 몰랐다)은 나에게 추가적인 걱정을 안겨준다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 08:23, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[ 하라 고 말했다.
- 17년 동안의 내 편집 이력을 자유롭게 검토하여 내가 WP:NPOV를 지지하였음을 확인해 보십시오.때때로 WP:BEBOLD가 되는 것은 범죄가 아니다.IZAK (대화) 19:33, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 지원 - Cullen328에 따른 지원.건배, 1292시몬 (토크) 12:29, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 지지 이단이라는 종교적 개념은 역사를 통틀어 많은 전쟁과 무수한 죽음을 초래했다.근대 후기조명 세계는 특히 프랑스와 미국의 혁명 이후 마침내 서부의 민주주의 민족국가들에게 종교의 자유라는 새로운 개념을 구현하는 것을 보게 되었다.20세기에 서구의 세속적인 사상은 종교로부터의 자유라는 표현을 더욱 강하게 표현했다.물론 지금 우리는 종교적 자유의 진자가 다시 흔들리는 것처럼 보이는 시대에 살고 있다.위키피디아는 자유롭고 세속적인 백과사전으로서 종교적 근본주의자들에게 역사적 현상에 관한 백과사전적 항목을 이단으로 분류하여 돌아다니는 도구를 주어서는 안 된다.내가 보기에 이것은 매우 위험한 도구로서 WP 관리자들이 매우 주의 깊게 지켜봐야 한다.그것은 현대 유대교에서 정교 종파의 선언된 대변인에게 자유로이 주어져서는 안 된다.Warsy(¥¥) 15:12, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 내가 쓴 글은 내가 어떤 생각을 좋아하거나 싫어하는 것과는 전혀 상관이 없다.나는 역사를 통틀어 종교적 편협성에 대한 개념의 중요성을 강조하려고 노력했다.나는 어떻게 다른 종교 사상을 "이단"으로 태그하는 것이 사회에서 항상 위험한 도구였는지를 설명하려고 노력했다.나는 그것이 위키피디아처럼 심각한 지적 도구에도 덜 해롭지 않다고 믿는다.내 생각에 그것은 학구적으로 다루어져야 한다.당신은 의심스러운 종교적 범주를 만들고 나서 돌아다니며 단지 종교적 주요 근원에 근거하여 다소 부주의하게 다른 생각의 흐름을 태그하는 것으로 그러한 주의력이 부족하다는 것을 분명히 보여주었다.자신의 주장인 '잘'이 종교적 도그마 그 자체에서 비롯되었다는 점도 지적하는 것이 중요하다.종교적 편협함의 이러한 위협은 여기서 점검할 필요가 있으며, 그래서 나는 당신의 주제로부터의 금지를 지지한다. warsy(¥¥) 21:56, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- Warsy, 당신은 열정과 전문지식을 "zeal"로 착각하고 있다.WP는 WP: EXPERT 편집기를 중시한다.편집자들은 어떤 주제에 대해 열성적이고 박식하기 때문에 기여한다. 여러분은 그것을 "zeal"이라고 부를 수도 있지만, 나는 광적인 팬이고 스포츠에 많은 돈을 쓰는 스포츠 팬들을 알고 있다. 하지만 나는 그들의 동기를 비판하지는 않을 것이다.나는 내가 아무것도 모르는 것을 감히 쓰거나 태그를 달지 못할 것이다.하지만 나는 이 과목을 오랜 시간 공부해서 알고 있어.나는 이곳의 "지원"들은 어려운 주제를 받아들일 만한 성숙함을 가지고 있지 않다고 본다.만약 편집자들이 편집에 동의하지 않는다면 그들은 간단히 WP:리턴(RETWORN). 당신의 우려는 전혀 근거 없는 것이다.IZAK (대화) 13:50, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 내가 쓴 글은 내가 어떤 생각을 좋아하거나 싫어하는 것과는 전혀 상관이 없다.나는 역사를 통틀어 종교적 편협성에 대한 개념의 중요성을 강조하려고 노력했다.나는 어떻게 다른 종교 사상을 "이단"으로 태그하는 것이 사회에서 항상 위험한 도구였는지를 설명하려고 노력했다.나는 그것이 위키피디아처럼 심각한 지적 도구에도 덜 해롭지 않다고 믿는다.내 생각에 그것은 학구적으로 다루어져야 한다.당신은 의심스러운 종교적 범주를 만들고 나서 돌아다니며 단지 종교적 주요 근원에 근거하여 다소 부주의하게 다른 생각의 흐름을 태그하는 것으로 그러한 주의력이 부족하다는 것을 분명히 보여주었다.자신의 주장인 '잘'이 종교적 도그마 그 자체에서 비롯되었다는 점도 지적하는 것이 중요하다.종교적 편협함의 이러한 위협은 여기서 점검할 필요가 있으며, 그래서 나는 당신의 주제로부터의 금지를 지지한다. warsy(¥¥) 21:56, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 지원 이 스레드의 IZAK의 논평은 사용자가 왜 그러한 특정 범주의 추가가 문제가 되는지 아직도 이해하지 못함을 나타내기 때문에, 그것은 당면한 행동을 다루는 상대적으로 좁은 주제 금지다.오노잇츠재미 22:06, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- 음 @Ohnoitsjamie: 이것은 정말로 WP이다.콘텐트디스퍼트, 그것은 누구의 행동과도 무관하다!IZAK (대화) 16:48, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 컬렌과 오노이츠자미에게 지원하라비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 22:14, 2020년 6월 12일 (UTC)[
- IZAK, 널리 존경받는 리투아니아 정교회 랍비 빌나 가온은 초대 루바비처 레베, 리아디의 슈네우르 잘만을 이단자로 비난하고 하시디 운동 전체를 이단자로 판단했다.빌나 가온을 인용하면 모든 하시디적 레베와 왕조를 이단자로 분류해야 할까?현대 하시디 왕조의 지도력을 '인격의 문화'라는 용어를 사용하여 기술하는 비교 종교의 사회학자와 학계 전문가들이 많다.18세기 동유럽의 가운을 입고 비버 털모자를 쓴 수천 명의 마을이나 이스라엘이 지배하는 정착촌을 독립적 사고가 금지된 지역사회에서 '유대인종교 지도자들'이라는 새로운 카테고리를 만들어 분류해야 할까.on은 필수 사항인가?이스라엘 국가의 존재는 '하나님에 대한 모욕'이라고 설교하는 초정통파 그룹 네투레 카르타(Neturei Kartar)는 어떨까.우리는 이스라엘과 이스라엘 모든 기관, 그리고 모든 정치인들을 정교 유다주의에 반대하는 이단자로 분류하기 위해 그들을 인용해야 할까?만약 그렇지 않다면, 왜 안 되는가?POV를 지원하는 소스를 좋아하지만 POV와 모순되는 소스를 즉시 거부한다고 대답하지 마십시오.컬렌렛328 2020년 6월 13일 07시 20분 (UTC) 토론하자[ 하라
- @Cullen328:당신이 무슨 말을 하고 있는지 알고 있고, 나에게 직접 주소를 썼으니, 내가 자세히 대답해 주겠다."리투아니아 정교회 랍비 빌나 가온은 널리 존경받는 리투아니아 정교회 랍비로서 초대 루바비처 레베, 리아디의 슈네우르 잘만을 이단자로 비난하고, 하시디 운동 전체를 이단자로 판단했다."사실이야! 당신은 놀라운 WP를 인용했다.RS!! "빌나 가온을 인용하면 모든 하시디크 레브와 왕조를 이단자로 분류해야 할까?" 대부분의 경우 아마도 그럴 것이다. 그러나 배심원단은 아직 나오지 않고 있다. 후일 하시딤은 스스로 "개혁"하고 토라 유대교의 더 나은 길로 되돌아갔기 때문에, "판결은 아직 미정이다"!"인격의 문화라는 용어를 사용하여 현대 하시디 왕조의 지도력을 기술하는 비교 종교의 사회학자와 학계 전문가들이 많다. 18세기 동유럽의 가운을 입고 비버 털모자를 쓴 수천 명의 마을이나 이스라엘이 지배하는 정착촌을 독립적 사고가 금지된 지역사회에서 '유대인종교 지도자들'이라는 새로운 카테고리를 만들어 분류해야 할까.on은 필수 사항인가?"가능할지 모르지만, 그들은 모든 유대인에게 요구되는 고전적인 유대법칙인 슐찬 아룩에 부합하고, 토라의 613 미츠보트 전부를 준수하기 때문에 그들은 더 우쭐대고 '문화'의 등급을 만들지 않기 때문에 꽤 컬트적인 것은 아니지만, 극단적인 경우에는 그럴 수도 있다.그나저나 그들은 수십만 명의 인원을 헤아린다."이스라엘국가의 존재는 '하나님에 대한 모욕'이라고 설교하는 초정통파 그룹 네투레 카르타는 어떨까? 이스라엘과 그 모든 기관과 정치인들을 정교 유다주의에 반대하는 이단자로 분류하기 위해 그들을 인용해야 할까?"나는 그 질문이 매우 복잡한 문제이기 때문에 시온주의자들을 신에 대항하는 이단으로 분류하는 것을 주저하고 있었다.그러나 세속적인 시오니즘의 이념에 반하는 것은 네투리 카르타나 사트마르 하시디즘만이 아니라, 모든 하레디 유대교 운동과 하시디치 유대교 운동은 시오니즘을 신에 대항하는 이단으로 분류할 것이다.이것은 "나의" 개인적인 관점이 아니라 세상의 현실이다."그렇지 않다면 왜 그렇지 않지?"방금 말했듯이, 질문은 복잡하다. 게다가 종교 시오니즘에는 유대 율법에 따라 이단자가 아닌 많은 사람들이 있다."당신의 POV를 지지하는 소스를 사랑하지만, 당신의 POV와 모순되는 소스를 수중에 거부한다고 대답하지 마십시오." 나는 단지 헤레디와 하시딕 유대교의 견해를 설명했을 뿐, 그들은 "내" 개인적인 관점이 아니며, 그것은 거의 그대로 그들의 표준적인 정당 노선이다.계속 물어봐.사용자가 다음을 수행:에르멘리히는 "엄마와 아빠"의 도움을 받기 위해 ANI로 무모하게 도망치기 전에 그렇게 사려 깊은 논쟁을 벌였었다.고맙고 몸조심해.IZAK (대화) 03:27, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- IZAK라는 솔직한 답변은 고맙지만, 이 주제 금지가 필요하다는 추가 증거를 제시해주셨으리라 믿는다.위키피디아에 따르면:분류: "범주는 일반적으로 논란의 여지가 없어야 한다. 범주의 주제가 논란을 일으킬 가능성이 있는 경우 목록 기사(주석을 달고 참조할 수 있음)가 더 적절할 것이다."이러한 유대인의 이단 분류는 심각한 논쟁을 불러일으키고 있으며 당신은 겉보기에는 그 이유를 이해하는 데 어려움을 겪고 있다.또한 "정의적 특성은 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 공통적으로 그리고 일관되게 가지는 것으로 정의한다"고 명시되어 있다.예를 들어 개혁 유대주의에 대해 믿을만한 출처에서 무작위로 뽑은 수백 개의 기사를 읽을 수 있다. 그 교파를 이단어로 묘사하는 기사를 훑어보지 않고도 말이다.그것은 단순히 개혁 운동의 결정적인 특징이 아니며 당신이 그것을 그런 식으로 분류하거나 그 범주를 옹호하는 것은 가식적이고 파괴적인 것이다.이것은 중립적인 백과사전이고, 하시디크페디아가 아니며, 분류체계는 다양한 유대교 종파와 왕조 사이의 끝없는 파벌 싸움에서 도구로 사용될 수 없다.컬렌렛328 2020년 6월 14일 04:48 (UTC) 토론하자[ 하라
- @Cullen328:개혁 유대교에 대한 수백 개의 기사가 헤레시를 언급하지 않는 것은 고전 유대교에 관한 한 이단적이지 않다.유대교의 헤레시가 뭔지도 알아?기본적으로 "지지"에 투표하는 모든 사람들은 유대교에서 헤리가 심지어 유대교에서 무엇을 의미하는지 전혀 알지 못한다.그들은 그것이 예의바른 회사에서 말하지 않은 더러운 "말살"과 같다고 생각한다.그러나 아아, 헤레시, 또는 유대교에서 아피코르족인 이단자가 되는 것은 유대 율법과 법학에서는 법적 지위가 된다.유대교에서는 옳고 부정확한 믿음과 실천이 중요하다.험난한 화두를 던질 길이 없고 기사나 범주가 유대교의 이단이나 정교유대교의 이단 둘 다에서 분명히 식별된 것의 목적에 부합하지 못할 이유도 없다, 어느 쪽이든, 나는 지금 나를 돕기 위해 떠난 모든 편집자들이 여기에 있기를 바랄 뿐이다, 그러나 그것이 내가 지불하는 대가다.위키백과에서 장수하다현실을 직시하자, 이곳의 "지지자들"은 종교적 관념에 대한 이해를 참을 수 없다.많은 WP:아이돈트라이크릿.다음엔 또 무슨 일이 일어날까?가톨릭 교회의 이단, 카테고리:중세 기독교의 이단, 카테고리:고대 기독교의 이단, 카테고리:불교 등에서의 이단:사바테인은 유대교에서 이단이 아니라 낮을 밤으로 바꾸고 빛은 어둠으로, 진실은 거짓으로, 거짓말은 사실로 만드는가?위키피디아에게는 슬픈 날이었습니다. 여기의 "지원" 때문에 위키피디아는 한 발 뒤로 물러서서 자신의 WP를 위반했기 때문이지요.무감각한 원칙.IZAK (대화) 12시 40분, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- IZAK라는 솔직한 답변은 고맙지만, 이 주제 금지가 필요하다는 추가 증거를 제시해주셨으리라 믿는다.위키피디아에 따르면:분류: "범주는 일반적으로 논란의 여지가 없어야 한다. 범주의 주제가 논란을 일으킬 가능성이 있는 경우 목록 기사(주석을 달고 참조할 수 있음)가 더 적절할 것이다."이러한 유대인의 이단 분류는 심각한 논쟁을 불러일으키고 있으며 당신은 겉보기에는 그 이유를 이해하는 데 어려움을 겪고 있다.또한 "정의적 특성은 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 공통적으로 그리고 일관되게 가지는 것으로 정의한다"고 명시되어 있다.예를 들어 개혁 유대주의에 대해 믿을만한 출처에서 무작위로 뽑은 수백 개의 기사를 읽을 수 있다. 그 교파를 이단어로 묘사하는 기사를 훑어보지 않고도 말이다.그것은 단순히 개혁 운동의 결정적인 특징이 아니며 당신이 그것을 그런 식으로 분류하거나 그 범주를 옹호하는 것은 가식적이고 파괴적인 것이다.이것은 중립적인 백과사전이고, 하시디크페디아가 아니며, 분류체계는 다양한 유대교 종파와 왕조 사이의 끝없는 파벌 싸움에서 도구로 사용될 수 없다.컬렌렛328 2020년 6월 14일 04:48 (UTC) 토론하자[ 하라
- @Cullen328:당신이 무슨 말을 하고 있는지 알고 있고, 나에게 직접 주소를 썼으니, 내가 자세히 대답해 주겠다."리투아니아 정교회 랍비 빌나 가온은 널리 존경받는 리투아니아 정교회 랍비로서 초대 루바비처 레베, 리아디의 슈네우르 잘만을 이단자로 비난하고, 하시디 운동 전체를 이단자로 판단했다."사실이야! 당신은 놀라운 WP를 인용했다.RS!! "빌나 가온을 인용하면 모든 하시디크 레브와 왕조를 이단자로 분류해야 할까?" 대부분의 경우 아마도 그럴 것이다. 그러나 배심원단은 아직 나오지 않고 있다. 후일 하시딤은 스스로 "개혁"하고 토라 유대교의 더 나은 길로 되돌아갔기 때문에, "판결은 아직 미정이다"!"인격의 문화라는 용어를 사용하여 현대 하시디 왕조의 지도력을 기술하는 비교 종교의 사회학자와 학계 전문가들이 많다. 18세기 동유럽의 가운을 입고 비버 털모자를 쓴 수천 명의 마을이나 이스라엘이 지배하는 정착촌을 독립적 사고가 금지된 지역사회에서 '유대인종교 지도자들'이라는 새로운 카테고리를 만들어 분류해야 할까.on은 필수 사항인가?"가능할지 모르지만, 그들은 모든 유대인에게 요구되는 고전적인 유대법칙인 슐찬 아룩에 부합하고, 토라의 613 미츠보트 전부를 준수하기 때문에 그들은 더 우쭐대고 '문화'의 등급을 만들지 않기 때문에 꽤 컬트적인 것은 아니지만, 극단적인 경우에는 그럴 수도 있다.그나저나 그들은 수십만 명의 인원을 헤아린다."이스라엘국가의 존재는 '하나님에 대한 모욕'이라고 설교하는 초정통파 그룹 네투레 카르타는 어떨까? 이스라엘과 그 모든 기관과 정치인들을 정교 유다주의에 반대하는 이단자로 분류하기 위해 그들을 인용해야 할까?"나는 그 질문이 매우 복잡한 문제이기 때문에 시온주의자들을 신에 대항하는 이단으로 분류하는 것을 주저하고 있었다.그러나 세속적인 시오니즘의 이념에 반하는 것은 네투리 카르타나 사트마르 하시디즘만이 아니라, 모든 하레디 유대교 운동과 하시디치 유대교 운동은 시오니즘을 신에 대항하는 이단으로 분류할 것이다.이것은 "나의" 개인적인 관점이 아니라 세상의 현실이다."그렇지 않다면 왜 그렇지 않지?"방금 말했듯이, 질문은 복잡하다. 게다가 종교 시오니즘에는 유대 율법에 따라 이단자가 아닌 많은 사람들이 있다."당신의 POV를 지지하는 소스를 사랑하지만, 당신의 POV와 모순되는 소스를 수중에 거부한다고 대답하지 마십시오." 나는 단지 헤레디와 하시딕 유대교의 견해를 설명했을 뿐, 그들은 "내" 개인적인 관점이 아니며, 그것은 거의 그대로 그들의 표준적인 정당 노선이다.계속 물어봐.사용자가 다음을 수행:에르멘리히는 "엄마와 아빠"의 도움을 받기 위해 ANI로 무모하게 도망치기 전에 그렇게 사려 깊은 논쟁을 벌였었다.고맙고 몸조심해.IZAK (대화) 03:27, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- IZAK, 널리 존경받는 리투아니아 정교회 랍비 빌나 가온은 초대 루바비처 레베, 리아디의 슈네우르 잘만을 이단자로 비난하고 하시디 운동 전체를 이단자로 판단했다.빌나 가온을 인용하면 모든 하시디적 레베와 왕조를 이단자로 분류해야 할까?현대 하시디 왕조의 지도력을 '인격의 문화'라는 용어를 사용하여 기술하는 비교 종교의 사회학자와 학계 전문가들이 많다.18세기 동유럽의 가운을 입고 비버 털모자를 쓴 수천 명의 마을이나 이스라엘이 지배하는 정착촌을 독립적 사고가 금지된 지역사회에서 '유대인종교 지도자들'이라는 새로운 카테고리를 만들어 분류해야 할까.on은 필수 사항인가?이스라엘 국가의 존재는 '하나님에 대한 모욕'이라고 설교하는 초정통파 그룹 네투레 카르타(Neturei Kartar)는 어떨까.우리는 이스라엘과 이스라엘 모든 기관, 그리고 모든 정치인들을 정교 유다주의에 반대하는 이단자로 분류하기 위해 그들을 인용해야 할까?만약 그렇지 않다면, 왜 안 되는가?POV를 지원하는 소스를 좋아하지만 POV와 모순되는 소스를 즉시 거부한다고 대답하지 마십시오.컬렌렛328 2020년 6월 13일 07시 20분 (UTC) 토론하자[ 하라
- "광범위하게 해석"의 범위를 명확히 설명하는 금지 요약과 함께 주제 금지를 지지하는 것 그의 토크 페이지를 보면, 그가 종교적인 유사과학에 호의적으로 과학을 거부하는 것을 볼 수 있을 것이다.이것은 우리가 (일부) 정통파 유대인들이 유대교의 다른 분파, 과학자 등과 의견이 다른 모든 주제와 거리를 두어야 한다는 것을 분명히 함으로써 그것을 다루지 않으면 백과사전의 여러 영역에 문제를 일으킬 것이다.취미용 말을 타지 않을 때는 편집에 능하다. --Guy Macon (토크) 10:00, 2020년 6월 13일 (UTC)[
- "종교적 유사과학"이 아니라 "유대주의 101" 입니다!내가 "나만의" 발명이 아니라고 말한 것은 어떤 WP에서도 찾을 수 있다.고전 유대교에 대한 RS.당신은 유대교를 모르몬교와 계속 비교하고 있는데, 이것도 또한 나쁜 논리야.그래도 칭찬해줘서 고마워.IZAK (대화) 03:11, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 내 마음에서 우러나온 보어 말이었다.사실, 내가 이 토론을 따르는 이유 중 하나는 조만간 누군가가 주제 금지 대신에 무기한 차단제를 제안할 것이 확실하기 때문이다. 그리고 그것이 어떤 방어적인 차단에도 반대하는 나의 의도다.
- 과학은 구약성경에 기술된 출애굽기가 일어나지 않았다고 말한다. 당신의 종교는 그렇게 했다고 말한다.그것은 거의 "종교적 유사과학"의 정의다.아니면 좀 더 구체적이고 종교적인 유사과학의 부분집합이라고 부를 수도 있다.
- 당신의 종교가 옳고 과학자가 틀렸다는 당신의 계속되는 주장은 당신을 금지할 것인가에 대한 논의 중에 있는 구멍의 법칙의 전형적인 예다.그것은 또한 WP이다.블러지닝(blurgeoning.
- 당신이 내 편집 이력을 얼마나 알고 있는지 모르겠지만, 나는 홀로코스트 부정은 과학에 의해 뒷받침되지 않는다며 위키피디아에 불만인 편집자들을 다루는데 많은 노력을 기울였다.나는 네가 홀로코스트 데니어의 주장 역시 거부한다고 가정해도 무방하다고 생각한다.
- 비슷한 점이 눈에 띈다. 당신처럼, 그들은 그들이 추진하고 있는 POV가 그들만의 발명품이 아니라는 것을 지적하기를 좋아한다.너처럼, 그들은 위키피디아가 자신들과 동의하지 않는 99% 이상의 과학자들 모두가 틀렸다고 말하길 원한다.당신처럼, 그들은, 반대로 압도적인 증거에도 불구하고, 어떻게든 그들의 주장이 우세하여 위키피디아가 유사과학을 진실로 제시하게 할 것이라고 생각하는 것 같다.
- (누군가가 고드윈의 법칙을 언급하기 전에, 유일한 유사성은 사이비과학을 밀어내고 과학을 거부하는 것임을 분명히 하겠다.큰 그림을 보면 신나치주의는 이 세상에서 악을 위한 힘이고, 정통 유대교는 분명히 선을 위한 힘이다.하나의 작은 측면을 공유하는 완전히 다른 두 가지를 비교하고 있다.)
- IZAK, 네가 이 백과사전 따는 거 싫어할 것 같아.만약 당신이 우승한다면, 내가 WP에 열거한 모든 유사과학:YWAB는 사실로도 공개될 것이다. --Guy Macon (대화) 06:29, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 가이 마콘에게, 당신의 진심은 고맙지만, 나는 당신이 사과와 오렌지를 계속 비교하고 있다는 것을 지적해야겠다. 당신은 범주의 실수, 논리의 큰 실패의 함정에 빠진다. 그때마다 당신은 내가 거의 알지 못하는 유대교의 어떤 것에 대해 의견을 개진한다.당신의 능력을 가진 사람을 위해 나는 당신이 위키백과 그 자체에 대한 많은 기사를 창간 카테고리에서 읽기를 제안한다.2004년 내가 취임했던 유대인과 유대교는 위키피디아에 대한 전체 분류 체계가 시작되었을 때[30년.주제와 관련된 기사가 수만 건에 달하기 때문에 시간이 걸릴 것이다.그러나 그 끝에서 당신은 유대교를 모르몬교나 네오나치스, 또는 홀로코스트 부정과 관련된 어떤 것과도 비교한 당신의 실수를 보게 될 것이다.마지막으로, 마지막으로 진정한 유대교의 NOTH(모자를 좋아하지 않는다는 것을 알고 있다)는 것은 '의사 과학'이다.타나흐라고 불리는 히브리 성경은 중요한 역사적 문서다.WP의 몇몇 사람들이 "신처럼 행동하라"고 결정했고, 신에게 역대 베스트셀러가 "과학" 혹은 "그런 것"이라고 말하는 것은 문제가 되지 않는다.P.S. 나는 위키피디아에 불만이 없는 것이 확실하다. 나는 위키피디아가 인류에게 위대한 도약이라고 생각한다. 그러나 그것은 진실과 전체 진실을 말하기 전에 갈 방법이 있다. 그래, 그래, 나는 WP:V에 대해 알고 있지만 진실은 100% WP:V이다.잘 부탁해, IZAK (대화) 13:04, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 위와 같은 내용은 이 주제의 금지가 유대교의 헤레시 이상의 것을 다룰 필요가 있다는 것을 보여준다.IZAK는 내가 실제로 썼던 것(성경에 기술된 엑소더스가 결코 일어나지 않았다는 것에 사실상 모든 과학자들이 동의한다는 것)과 내가 유대교를 묘사하거나 정의하려고 했던 가상의 세계와의 차이를 구분할 수 없다.그는 홀로코스트 데니어가 말하는 것처럼 홀로코스트가 일어나지 않았다고 말할 때 괜찮아 보이고, 같은 과학자들이 콜럼버스 이전의 북아메리카가 모르몬스 책이 말하는 것과 전혀 다르다고 말할 때 그는 괜찮아 보인다.수백만 명의 유대인들이 실제로 마나에게 먹이는 야생성을 천국에서 떠돌았다는 믿음은 유사과학이다.하나님의 천사가 실제로 유월절 밤에 문설주에 피를 뿌리지 않은 집안의 맏아들을 죽였다는 믿음은 가증이다.IZAK가 역사적 사실이라고 믿는 것의 대부분은 결코 일어나지 않았다.고고학적 기록은 성경본과 일치하지 않는다.그는 이 부분에서 편집을 중단해야 한다. --Guy Macon (대화) 03:38, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 가이 매콘—사이언스 과학, 종교로도 알려져 있다.당신은
"수백만
명의유대인들이 실제로 마나에게 먹이는 야생성을 하늘
에서 떠돌아다녔다는믿음은 유사과학이다.
하나님의 천사가 실제로 유월절 밤에 문설주에 피를 뿌리지 않은 어떤 집안의 맏아들을 죽였다는 믿음은 가증이다."
위키피디아가 종교를 묘사할 수 없다는 말인가?위키피디아는 검열되지 않는다.버스정류장(토크) 04:01, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[- 확실히 위키피디아는 종교를 묘사할 수 있다.이 편집에서 삭제된 IZAK 단락은 종교를 기술했다.그는 단지 서술이 마음에 들지 않아서 그것을 삭제했다.예를 들어 예수의 부활, 즉 아나스타시즘은 예수가 십자가에 못박힌 지 사흘째 되는 날 하나님이 예수를 키워주신 기독교 신앙이라고 말할 때, 우리는 종교의 일부를 묘사하고 있다.대신에 우리가 예수님이 실제로 죽은 사람들 가운데서 살아나셨다고 말한다면(기독교인들이 그렇게 믿지는 않지만 대신 위키피디아의 목소리로 사실이라고 보도하는 것) 성경을 우리의 인용구로 사용한다면, 그것이 바로 과학이다.과학자들이 3일 동안 죽은 사람에 대해 알고 있는 것과 어긋난다. --Guy Macon (대화) 04:59, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- Guy Macon—"과학"을 잘못 사용하고 있다.그것은 "과학적이거나 과학의 지원을 받기를 원하지만 과학적인 방법을 따르지 않는 지식의 모든 신체"이다.그러나 종교는 일반적으로 과학적이라고 주장하지 않기 때문에 그러한 정의는 종교에 적용되지 않을 것이다.버스정류장(토크) 11:27, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 확실히 위키피디아는 종교를 묘사할 수 있다.이 편집에서 삭제된 IZAK 단락은 종교를 기술했다.그는 단지 서술이 마음에 들지 않아서 그것을 삭제했다.예를 들어 예수의 부활, 즉 아나스타시즘은 예수가 십자가에 못박힌 지 사흘째 되는 날 하나님이 예수를 키워주신 기독교 신앙이라고 말할 때, 우리는 종교의 일부를 묘사하고 있다.대신에 우리가 예수님이 실제로 죽은 사람들 가운데서 살아나셨다고 말한다면(기독교인들이 그렇게 믿지는 않지만 대신 위키피디아의 목소리로 사실이라고 보도하는 것) 성경을 우리의 인용구로 사용한다면, 그것이 바로 과학이다.과학자들이 3일 동안 죽은 사람에 대해 알고 있는 것과 어긋난다. --Guy Macon (대화) 04:59, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 가이 매콘—사이언스 과학, 종교로도 알려져 있다.당신은
- 위와 같은 내용은 이 주제의 금지가 유대교의 헤레시 이상의 것을 다룰 필요가 있다는 것을 보여준다.IZAK는 내가 실제로 썼던 것(성경에 기술된 엑소더스가 결코 일어나지 않았다는 것에 사실상 모든 과학자들이 동의한다는 것)과 내가 유대교를 묘사하거나 정의하려고 했던 가상의 세계와의 차이를 구분할 수 없다.그는 홀로코스트 데니어가 말하는 것처럼 홀로코스트가 일어나지 않았다고 말할 때 괜찮아 보이고, 같은 과학자들이 콜럼버스 이전의 북아메리카가 모르몬스 책이 말하는 것과 전혀 다르다고 말할 때 그는 괜찮아 보인다.수백만 명의 유대인들이 실제로 마나에게 먹이는 야생성을 천국에서 떠돌았다는 믿음은 유사과학이다.하나님의 천사가 실제로 유월절 밤에 문설주에 피를 뿌리지 않은 집안의 맏아들을 죽였다는 믿음은 가증이다.IZAK가 역사적 사실이라고 믿는 것의 대부분은 결코 일어나지 않았다.고고학적 기록은 성경본과 일치하지 않는다.그는 이 부분에서 편집을 중단해야 한다. --Guy Macon (대화) 03:38, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 가이 마콘에게, 당신의 진심은 고맙지만, 나는 당신이 사과와 오렌지를 계속 비교하고 있다는 것을 지적해야겠다. 당신은 범주의 실수, 논리의 큰 실패의 함정에 빠진다. 그때마다 당신은 내가 거의 알지 못하는 유대교의 어떤 것에 대해 의견을 개진한다.당신의 능력을 가진 사람을 위해 나는 당신이 위키백과 그 자체에 대한 많은 기사를 창간 카테고리에서 읽기를 제안한다.2004년 내가 취임했던 유대인과 유대교는 위키피디아에 대한 전체 분류 체계가 시작되었을 때[30년.주제와 관련된 기사가 수만 건에 달하기 때문에 시간이 걸릴 것이다.그러나 그 끝에서 당신은 유대교를 모르몬교나 네오나치스, 또는 홀로코스트 부정과 관련된 어떤 것과도 비교한 당신의 실수를 보게 될 것이다.마지막으로, 마지막으로 진정한 유대교의 NOTH(모자를 좋아하지 않는다는 것을 알고 있다)는 것은 '의사 과학'이다.타나흐라고 불리는 히브리 성경은 중요한 역사적 문서다.WP의 몇몇 사람들이 "신처럼 행동하라"고 결정했고, 신에게 역대 베스트셀러가 "과학" 혹은 "그런 것"이라고 말하는 것은 문제가 되지 않는다.P.S. 나는 위키피디아에 불만이 없는 것이 확실하다. 나는 위키피디아가 인류에게 위대한 도약이라고 생각한다. 그러나 그것은 진실과 전체 진실을 말하기 전에 갈 방법이 있다. 그래, 그래, 나는 WP:V에 대해 알고 있지만 진실은 100% WP:V이다.잘 부탁해, IZAK (대화) 13:04, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- "종교적 유사과학"이 아니라 "유대주의 101" 입니다!내가 "나만의" 발명이 아니라고 말한 것은 어떤 WP에서도 찾을 수 있다.고전 유대교에 대한 RS.당신은 유대교를 모르몬교와 계속 비교하고 있는데, 이것도 또한 나쁜 논리야.그래도 칭찬해줘서 고마워.IZAK (대화) 03:11, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
버스정류장, 종교와 유사과학의 차이에 대한 당신의 설명은 옳지만, 당신은 내 목구멍에 단어를 쑤셔넣을 정도로 내 입장을 완전히 오인해, 내가 한 번도 잡지 않은 입장을 반박하는 훌륭한 주장을 펼쳤으며, 그때 당신 자신의 창조의 밀짚사람을 쓰러뜨리고, 승리를 선언했다.나는 네가 일부러 이런 짓을 하고 있다고 생각하지 않기 때문에 내가 불분명했다고 생각하고 너에게 나의 실제 입장을 설명하려고 노력할 거야.너는 결국 동의할 수도 있고 내 실제 말에 반대할 수도 있지만, 적어도 우리는 같은 것에 대해 이야기 할 것이다.
누가 주장한다면
- "신은 존재하며 만물을 창조했다"
- "예수는 나를 구해주셨고 성경은 그의 영감을 받은 말씀이다."
- "시나이 산에서 신이 말 그대로 밝히고 그 이후로도 충실하게 전승된, 쓰임과 구전을 겸비한 토라."
- "조셉 스미스는 진정한 예언자로, 신의 도움으로 금판으로부터 모르몬의 책을 번역했다."
그것들은 과학이나 유사과학이 아니라 종교다.위키피디아는 그러한 주장이 거짓이라고 절대 말하지 않을 것이고, 위키피디아는 그러한 주장이 사실이라고 절대 말하지 않을 것이다.우리는 가능한 한 정확하게 그것들을 묘사하고, 우리는 누가 그러한 믿음을 가지고 있는지 묘사한다.그러나 다음과 같은 주장은 종교와 유사과학이다.
- "신은 HIV 환자들을 안정적으로 치유한다.당신은 그의 치유를 받았고 당신은 당신의 약을 끊을 수 있다"고 말했다.
- "당신이 토라에서 읽은 것은 역사적 사실이며, 말 그대로 정확히 묘사된 대로, 그렇지 않으면 모든 과학자가 틀렸고 반제학적으로 될 가능성이 매우 높다"고 말했다.
- "조셉 스미스는 콜럼비아 이전 아메리카에는 녹슬어 녹슬어가는 말, 코끼리, 그리고 강철 검이 있었다고 말한다. 그래서 그것들은 역사적 사실이고 그렇지 않다고 말하는 모든 과학자들은 틀렸다고 말한다."
- "지구는 만년도 채 되지 않았고, 인간과 공룡이 공존했다."
위와 같은 것은 모두 종교에 의해 동기부여가 되었지만, 사실임을 표방하고 과학에 의해 지지를 받는다고 주장하지만 그렇지 않기 때문에 종교적인 유사과학이다. --Guy Macon (대화) 13:29, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 다시 말하지만, 내가 이미 지적했듯이, 너는 사과와 오렌지를 섞어서 범주의 실수라는 비논리적인 함정에 빠진다. 왜냐하면 유대교와 그 모든 형태의 토라는 몰몬교나 HIV나 어떤 "사이비과학"의 어떤 것과도 아무런 관련이 없기 때문이다.IZAK (대화) 14:29, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 가이 마콘—정교 유대인은 토라를 반증하기 때문에 과학자의 항균성을 발견하지 못할 것이다.여러분은
"토라에서 읽은 것은 역사적 사실이며,
말그대로 정확히 묘사된 대로 일어난
것이다.그렇지
않으면모든 과학자들이 틀렸으며
,반제학적일 수도 있다
."라고 쓰고 있다.
버스정류장 (대화) 17:35, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 마지못해 지지하다.IZAK가 그 문제를 이해해주길 기다렸지만 소용이 없었다.카테고리는 기사 본문에서 위키백과의 음성으로 표현할 수 없는 의견을 위키백과의 음성으로 진술하기 위한 목적으로 고안된 것이 아니다.IZAK의 사견이든, 종교단체의 의견이든 차이가 없다.다음으로 '아이돌 예배' 카테고리에서 기독교를 찾을 것인가?04talk:23, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 설명:
- --Guy Macon (대화) 06:57, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 가이 마콘에게, 유대교 안에서 인용한 문장의 어느 부분이 사실이 아닌지 말해보시오.출애굽기 이후 유대인들이 관찰한 유월절, 수꽃, 샤부오트의 3대 순례축제에 대해 들어본 적이 있는가? 출애굽기 이후 시나이산에서 출애굽기와 십계명을 준 것을 기념하는 것이다.기억하라, 당신은 유대교나 어떤 종교나 어떤 주제도 만들 수 없다. 당신은 먼저 경험적으로 설명과 설명을 먼저 사용해야 한다. 자신의 결론(매우 열등하고, 어설프게)으로 뛰어들기 전에.유대교, 히브리어 성경 또는 유대교 신앙의 *당신의* 버전을 만드는 것은 WP를 명백히 위반하는 것이다.NOTMADEUP이며 WP일 것이다.오늘날 많은 세속적인 교수들이 빠져드는 함정이기도 하다.그들은 박사학위를 가지고 있기 때문에 유대교와 성경에 대해 그들이 원하는 것은 무엇이든 말할 수 있다고 생각하지만, 그것은 그렇지 않다!IZAK (대화) 13:39, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 유대교의 이단 금지와 정교회 유대교의 이단 금지를 지지하는 주제가 대체로 해석된다.컬렌328의 주장은 충분히 설득력이 있을 것이고, 이작의 대응은 이것의 필요성만을 보강할 뿐이다.더그 웰러 토크 09:13, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 코멘트 내가 TBAN 지지자들에게 지적하기를, 아마도 "공세적"으로 여겨지는 편집들 중 하나는 유대교에서 헤레시 범주의 일부로 "유대인 기독교"를 표시하는 것이다.예수님을 메시아로 믿는 사람들이 유대교의 핵심 신앙 중 하나를 믿지 않는다는 것을 정말 설명할 필요가 있을까?더 나아가서, 다시 한 번 그 범주들 중 하나는 "정교 유대교의 이단"이다.당신이 그 신념들 중 몇몇에 동의하지 않을 수도 있지만, 우리는 지금 OP가 "공포적"이라는 그의 편집 요약에서 했던 것처럼 위키피디아를 검열하고 있다.현대에 가장 유명한 이단자 중 하나인 바루치 스피노자를 예로 들어보자. 그가 살아있다면 불쾌하게 여길지도 모르기 때문에 그에게 이름을 붙이지 말아야 할까? (아마 그럴지도 모르지만, 그것은 다른 이야기일 것이다.)나는 사실 이것이 백과사전을 망치고 잘못되어 가는 가장 끔찍한 예들 중 하나라는 것을 발견한다.유대교의 이레시 또는 정교회의 이레시는 법률 용어로서 이삭이 편집한 몇몇 용어들은 확실히 그러한 범주에 적합하다.TBANNING은 틀렸고, 그러한 편집을 허용하지 않는 것 또한 잘못되었으며, 이 백과사전의 PCNess를 더욱 심화시킨다.조셉 경 01:10, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
유대교에서는 이단, 정교회에서는 이단이다.
- 무슨 법으로?— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:04, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 유대교 기독교인들은 예수의 최초 추종자 중 일부였기 때문에, 유대교에서 이단으로 분류되어서는 안 된다.다음 단계는 기독교를 유대인 이단으로 분류한다(랍비들의 관점에서 의심할 여지 없이 시작!).---에르멘리히 (토크) 16:07, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- Ermenrich, 유태인_Christian#cite_note-JVL-2.조셉(talk) 16:20, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 조지프 경, WP:카테고리:유대교 기독교에는 히브리인들에게 보내는 서간과 하위 카테고리 WP:카테고리:팻모스의 요한, 사도 요한, 사도 바울이 포함된 유대 기독교 신비주의자들.기독교의 가장 중요한 인물과 본문을 '유대주의 이단'으로 규정하는 것을 어떻게 옹호할 수 있는가? 이 특정 범주가 바로 여러분이 가장 많이 걸어온 범주인데 말이다.하위 카테고리 wp:범주:초기 유대인 기독교인들은 전도사 마크, [[John I { Bishop of Evense]], 성 스테판, 그리고 많은 다른 중요한 초기 기독교인들을 포함한다.이것은 분명히 기독교인들에게 모욕적이며, 단지 당신이 메시아어 유대교를 싫어한다고 해서 그것에 대한 방어가 없다.--에르멘리히 (토크) 16:25, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- Hand ThatFeeds, 유대인 법, 그리고 그것은 그렇게 분류된다.이것은 모두 위키피디아를 검열하려는 내용상의 논쟁일 뿐이다.조셉(talk) 16:16, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 조지프 유대인 "법"경은 종교적인 교리다.그리고 당신은 정교 신앙이 유대교의 다른 모든 분야에 대한 권위를 가지고 있다고 주장할 것인가?진지하게, 선의로, 한 교파가 다른 모든 교파들이 이단적이라고 결정하도록 할 수 있다고 주장할 수 있는가? 그리고 우리는 위키피디아의 목소리로 그 종교적인 믿음들을 그렇게 표시해야 하는가? — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:45, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 정의상 정통 유대교에서 헤리시라고 불리는 범주인 HandThFeeds는 정교 유대교에서 헤리시라고 하는 것을 의미하는데, 당신은 물론 나도, 이자크도 위키백과도 아니다.백과사전은 그렇게 작동한다.카톨릭 교회의 이단 관련 기사는 많이 있는데 AFD로 하시겠습니까?조셉(talk) 16:51, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 정말 기사와 카테고리의 차이를 모르십니까?제로talk 17:05, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- Joseph First, Zero는 좋은 점을 지적한다: 기사는 범주와 같지 않다.나는 정통 유대교가 이단적이라고 믿는 것에 대한 이론적인 기사에는 아무런 문제가 없다.하지만 카테고리는 위키백과 기사에 적용하는 조직적인 라벨이다.그런 기사들은 교리적인 문제를 다루고 있기 때문에(애초에 기사로서 논란이 충분히 두드러진다고 가정할 때) 이 실에서 언급된 범주를 분명히 그들에게 적용할 수 있을 것이다.
- 우리가 다루고 있는 것은 정통 유대교가 유대교의 다른 분파를 이단적이라고 선언한 상황이다.정교회가 그들 자신의 교파 내에서 이단체를 선언하는 것은 한 가지다; 우리가 여기서 가지고 있는 것은 "정교 유대인들에 의한 진짜 유대교가 아니다"라고 효과적으로 말하면서 유다의 다른 분파들에 범주를 적용하는 것이다.우리는 경쟁 종파가 말하는 것에 근거하여 이러한 다른 형태의 유대교 "이단"이라는 상표에 범주를 적용하지 않을 것이다.— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 18:25, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- HandThatFeeds, 그것은 정통 유대교에 따른 범주야.정교회 유대교의 이레시는 정교회 유대교의 헤레시에 관한 범주로서, 반드시 유다신의 헤레시에 관한 범주라고는 할 수 없다는 것을 암시하고 있다.조셉(talk) 18:46, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 요셉
경은
꼭유다신의 헤레시에 관한 것만은 아니다(
sic) - 그게 문제야그것은 유대교의 이단이나 심지어 특정한 교리에 관한 것이 아니다; 그것은 정교 종파가 다른 종파를 이단적이라고 선언하는 것에 관한 것이다.우리는 경쟁상대를 "이단자"라고 선언하는 모든 종교 종파에 대해 이러한 범주를 가질 것인가?두 교파가 서로 이단적이라고 선언하면 우리는 서로 대립되는 범주를 각각 부여하면 어떻게 되는가?말도 안 되는 일이고, 이 범주들은 문제의 종파에 관한 페이지에 적용되어서는 안 된다.
- 그리고 그것이 우리가 제안서 자체의 주제에서 벗어났기 때문에 내가 이 문제에 대해 말하는 마지막이다.— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 2020년 6월 15일 19:14[
- HandThFeeds—Category가 다른 형태의 유대교 이단을 브랜드화했더라도, Category의 제목이 다음과 같이 말하는 정교 유대교에 따른 것일 것이다.범주:정교 유대교의 이단.당신은
"우리
는 경쟁자를이단자로 선언하는 모든 종교 종파
에 대해이런
범주를가질 것인가?"
라고 말한다.그 다리를 건널 때 건너가는 게 어때?버스정류장(토크) 19:33, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- HandThFeeds—Category가 다른 형태의 유대교 이단을 브랜드화했더라도, Category의 제목이 다음과 같이 말하는 정교 유대교에 따른 것일 것이다.범주:정교 유대교의 이단.당신은
- 요셉
- HandThatFeeds, 그것은 정통 유대교에 따른 범주야.정교회 유대교의 이레시는 정교회 유대교의 헤레시에 관한 범주로서, 반드시 유다신의 헤레시에 관한 범주라고는 할 수 없다는 것을 암시하고 있다.조셉(talk) 18:46, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 정의상 정통 유대교에서 헤리시라고 불리는 범주인 HandThFeeds는 정교 유대교에서 헤리시라고 하는 것을 의미하는데, 당신은 물론 나도, 이자크도 위키백과도 아니다.백과사전은 그렇게 작동한다.카톨릭 교회의 이단 관련 기사는 많이 있는데 AFD로 하시겠습니까?조셉(talk) 16:51, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 조지프 유대인 "법"경은 종교적인 교리다.그리고 당신은 정교 신앙이 유대교의 다른 모든 분야에 대한 권위를 가지고 있다고 주장할 것인가?진지하게, 선의로, 한 교파가 다른 모든 교파들이 이단적이라고 결정하도록 할 수 있다고 주장할 수 있는가? 그리고 우리는 위키피디아의 목소리로 그 종교적인 믿음들을 그렇게 표시해야 하는가? — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:45, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 유대교 기독교인들은 예수의 최초 추종자 중 일부였기 때문에, 유대교에서 이단으로 분류되어서는 안 된다.다음 단계는 기독교를 유대인 이단으로 분류한다(랍비들의 관점에서 의심할 여지 없이 시작!).---에르멘리히 (토크) 16:07, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 반대 - 일부 사람들이 편집 내용에 동의하지 않는 이유를 알 수 있지만, 결국, 여기 있는 것은 두어 번 되돌리는 것과 내용 논쟁뿐인데, 이것은 주제 금지에 걸맞는 어떤 것도 아닌 지위에 올라가지 않는다.만약 IZAK가 정말로 에르멘리히의 주장처럼 그러한 논쟁에서 우위를 점하기 위한 방법으로 반유대주의적인 누군가를 거짓으로 비난했다면, 그것은 정말 가치 있는 주제 금지가 될 것이다.하지만 중요한 것은 - IZAK가 그렇게 하지 않았다는 것이다.여기 에르멘리히가 제공한 차이점이 있다[34].미안한데, 반유대주의 고발은 또 어디 갔지?거기 없어.사실, 에르멘리히가 자신이 하지 않은 일로 아이작(IZAK)을 그렇게 뻔뻔스럽게 비난하고 본질적으로 가짜 디프피를 제공한다는 것은 꽤 섬뜩한 일이다.WP에 대한 이러한 교활한 시도:GAMEing은 WP:부메랑 가치 있어. 자원봉사 마렉 04:21, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 자원봉사 마렉에 들러줘서 고마워, 나도 사랑해.언제나처럼 놀랍도록 폭발적이다.만약 당신이 누군가가 "유대인의 모든 것에 대해 분개할 도끼"를 가지고 있다고 말하는 것이 어떻게 반제학적이라고 비난하는지 보지 못한다면, 나는 무엇이 그 사람을 반제학적이라고 비난하고 있는지 잘 모르겠다.—-에르멘리히 (대화) 11:58, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 콘텐츠 논쟁과는 아무 상관이 없다.더 깊은 이슈의 징후는 WP의 서신을 따르는 것에 대한 이 주제 영역의 대부분의 기사의 무관심이다.RS. WP:Primary sourcing은 거대하고 용인되는 양이 있는데, 거의 변함없이 표면적인 비유의 절반을 차지하고 있으며, 흔히 예시바에서 가르치는 '공식적인' 1차 소스를 인용한다.예시바, 마드라사 또는 신교 신학자들에게 내재된 자료를 인용함으로써 종교의 고대 역사상의 문제에 관한 모든 것을 만지는 것은 불을 가지고 노는 것이다.그 관행은 금지되어야 한다.니시다니 (토크) 12:29, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- Ermenrich—"추가적으로, 그들은 WP:ASPERSIONs는 그들의 변화에 반대하는 편집자들이 반제목적이라는 것을 암시함으로써 [35] 그러나 그들은 "그들의 변화에 반대하는 편집자들이 반제목적이라는 것을 충분히 알 수는 없다"고 말했다.버스정류장(대화) 12:37, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 나는 동의하지 않는다.그들은
User
와같은 많은 편집자들
이 다음과 같은사실을 알아챘다고 말했다.
에르멘리히는 WP에서 연기를 해왔다.
유대교와 관련된 기사들을 인정하고, 고전적인 유대인 해설자들과 장학금이 말하는 것을 부인하기 위해 전력을 다하라.
네가 세속적인 반종교적 교수들을 인용할 수 있다는 것은 매우 좋은 일이지만, 그들은 유대 신학에 대해 잘 알고 있고, 성서적으로나 심지어 유대인들에 대해서라면 무엇이든 반대할 수 있는 도끼를 가지고 있을 뿐이다.
그래서 기본적으로 다음과 같이 하십시오.나는 어떻게 해서든 사두체라는 기사를 "소유"했는데, 이 모든 것이 시작된 곳이 바로 내가 그의 카테고리 추가사항을 되돌리고 그것에 반대하는 주장을 했기 때문이다.나는 "유대인의 모든 것에 도전할 도끼를 가지고 있다"는 세속적인 학자들에 의지하고 있다.만약 세속적인 학자들이 "유대인의 모든 것에 대항할 도끼를 가지고 있다"고 한다면, 그들은 반제학적이다.그리고 만약 내가 위키피디아에서 그들의 사용을 옹호한다면, 암시에 의한 나 역시 반체제인 것임에 틀림없다.직접적인 고발은 아니므로 어느 정도 그럴듯한 폄하(아래에서도 그가 나를 예수의 유태인이라고 비난하고 나서 자신은 그렇지 않았다고 주장하는 것 같다)를 가지고 있지만 그럼에도 불구하고 있는 것이다. - 그에 필적하는 예를 들어보자.만약 내가 논평에서 어떤 사람이 홀로코스트를 부정하는 출처를 추가하고 옹호한다고 비난한다면, 나는 그들이 홀로코스트 부정주의를 비난하고 있지 않을 것인가?그가 "반미인"이라고 말하지 않았다고 해서 그것이 강하게 암시되지 않았다는 뜻은 아니다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 12:42, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 나는 동의하지 않는다.그들은
- 반대 이것은 내용 논쟁처럼 보이지만, 나는 RFC가 "유대주의의 이단" 범주를 사용해야 할 때 순서라고 생각한다 --Shrike (토크) 06:57, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 반대 - 나는 유대교의 헤리시 범주는 NPOV가 아니며 비 유대교 주제(Samaritans et al.)나 심지어 비정통 유대교에도 적용되어서는 안 된다는 것에 동의하지만, 나는 개인적인 TBAN이 너무 지나쳐 어느 정도 훌륭한 기여를 한 편집자에 대한 비비례적인 검열이라고 생각한다.근본적인 내용 논쟁을 해결하기 위해 나는 "정교 유대교에서 이단으로 비난받은 신앙"과 유사한 위키 페이지를 만들 것을 제안한다.참고: "믿음에서 다음과 같이 비난받음.navbox 제목(예: 개신교의 경우)에 수록되어 있지만, 실제 wiki 페이지는 "List of thises in..."이다.유대교의 그런 페이지에는 다양한 유대교 운동(정교 운동도 반드시 이단적인 것은 아니다)이 보는 개인의 신앙이 나열될 것이다.그것은 (전 종교가 아닌) 개인의 신앙을 이단으로 나열하기 때문에 NPOV를 보존한다.그것은 또한 유대교 관련 페이지가 기독교 관련 페이지들과 일치하도록 만들 것이다(이슬람어 등). alt multi (대화) 07:00, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 반대 이 기사들은 아마도 정교 유대교가 유대교의 보다 현대적인 결정을 일부 이단적인 것으로 간주하는 단순한 이유 때문에 IZAK에 의해 태그가 붙여졌다.그러므로 그의 편집은 잘 설명되어 있고, 내가 그것에 동의하지 않더라도 IZAK와 간단히 이 문제를 논의했을 것이다.그러나 에르멘리히는 그렇게 하지 않았고, IZAK의 작품을 위키백과의 편집자로 오인하고 있다.그것은 틀렸다.게다가 편집자와 논의조차 하기 전에 관리 포럼을 금지하자고 제안하는 것은 올바른 절차가 아니며 이미 편집과 관련해 논의가 진행 중이었다는 사실을 오용하고 있다고 생각한다.에르멘리히가 이것을 IZAK에 대한 십자군원정으로 바꾸고 있는 것처럼 보인다.디프레서 (대화) 20:22, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 디브레서, 토론이 있었는데, 사실 여러 번, Talk:유대교와 사용자 대화에 따르면 사두교#사두교는 이단이다.에르멘리히#WP:NPOV.나는 그들이 왜 이것이 백과사전에 덧붙이는 것이 좋지 않은지를 이해할 수 없는 그들의 무능을 보고 결정했을 뿐이다(예를 들어 그들이 유대교의 주요 종파였다면 어떻게 사두파가 유대교에서 이단자가 될 수 있는가). 그 문제에 관한 끝도 없고 끝도 없는 토론의 백과사전을 아끼지 않는 것이 더 낫겠다고.나는 IZAK를 상대로 "크러세이드(crusade)"를 하거나, IZAK를 벌주려고 하는 것이 아니다.나는 단지 POV 푸싱을 피하는 것에 관심이 있다.나는 또한 IZAK가 <출애굽기>에서 편집한 내용을 그 시점까지 되돌리는 것과 전혀 관련이 없는 상태에서 실타래 [36]에서 나를 언급하면서 나에 대한 십자군원정을 벌인 것으로 보인다는 것을 주목할 수 있다.파롯 [37]--에르멘리히 (대화) 20:28, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 그렇구나. 그가 어떻게 사두세인을 유대교 범주에 있는 이단으로 분류할 수 있었는지 이해할 수 없다는 것이 이상하다. 왜냐하면 다시 말하지만 그는 그의 논리가 옳았기 때문이다. 바리새파 학파 출신의 현대 유대교는 정말로 그들이 부분적으로 이단적이라고 간주하기 때문이다.
- 그래서 당신은 기본적으로 콘텐츠 분쟁에 대해 편집자를 보고하는 것이다.그걸 금지시키겠다고 제안했어?나는 여전히 이 제안에 매우 반대한다.(대화) 21:00, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 디브레서, 종교적인 POV 밀기 패턴으로 제안할거야만약 그것이 내용상의 논쟁이라고 생각한다면, 그렇게 하시오.아이작(IZAK)이 다른 분야에서도 좋은 일을 한다는 것을 인식하고 있기 때문에 극히 좁은 금지다.--에르멘리히(토크) 21:04, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그가 POV를 밀고 있다고 생각하지 않는다.나는 위키피디아에 있을 때부터 그를 주변에서 봤고, 그는 훨씬 더 오래 있었다.우리는 ARBCOM까지 의견 충돌이 있었지만, 그는 합리적인 편집자야.그는 단지 잘못된 편집을 하고 있었을 뿐이며, 그것은 편집자를 금지할 충분한 이유가 아니다.(대화) 22:07, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 에르멘리히, 네가 종교적인 포브 푸싱 편집을 하는 거 아니야?마치 그것이 되돌려야 할 정책적 이유인 것처럼 '공세'라는 요약으로 이삭을 되돌린 장본인이다.토크페이지 토론이나 RFC, 제3자 등으로 이 모든 것을 처리할 수 있을 때 아젠다를 여기에 몰아붙이고 이삭을 편집 금지시키려 하는 것은 바로 당신인 것 같다.조셉(talk) 경 22:11, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 디브레서, 종교적인 POV 밀기 패턴으로 제안할거야만약 그것이 내용상의 논쟁이라고 생각한다면, 그렇게 하시오.아이작(IZAK)이 다른 분야에서도 좋은 일을 한다는 것을 인식하고 있기 때문에 극히 좁은 금지다.--에르멘리히(토크) 21:04, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 디브레서, 토론이 있었는데, 사실 여러 번, Talk:유대교와 사용자 대화에 따르면 사두교#사두교는 이단이다.에르멘리히#WP:NPOV.나는 그들이 왜 이것이 백과사전에 덧붙이는 것이 좋지 않은지를 이해할 수 없는 그들의 무능을 보고 결정했을 뿐이다(예를 들어 그들이 유대교의 주요 종파였다면 어떻게 사두파가 유대교에서 이단자가 될 수 있는가). 그 문제에 관한 끝도 없고 끝도 없는 토론의 백과사전을 아끼지 않는 것이 더 낫겠다고.나는 IZAK를 상대로 "크러세이드(crusade)"를 하거나, IZAK를 벌주려고 하는 것이 아니다.나는 단지 POV 푸싱을 피하는 것에 관심이 있다.나는 또한 IZAK가 <출애굽기>에서 편집한 내용을 그 시점까지 되돌리는 것과 전혀 관련이 없는 상태에서 실타래 [36]에서 나를 언급하면서 나에 대한 십자군원정을 벌인 것으로 보인다는 것을 주목할 수 있다.파롯 [37]--에르멘리히 (대화) 20:28, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 강한 반대.IZAK가 말했듯이, 대부분의 반대자들은 WP로 분류된다.헤리시 개념의 IDONTLYKIT은 모든 종교에 존재하며 WP에 그렇게 제시될 수 있다. 왜냐하면 WP는 다음과 같기 때문이다.감시를 받지 않았다.특정 종교의 특정 변종이 다른 변종을 이단으로 본다는 사실에 주목하는 것은 찬성할 수 없다.브리앙고트 (토크) (연주) 20:04, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
임의 섹션 구분 1
- 댓글을 달다.IZAK에 대한 개인 메모.WP별:TLDR, 다른 사람들에게 무시당하는 것.주문을 받아 앙리 버그슨의 도덕과 종교의 두 가지 근원을 읽어 보십시오.그것은 세속적인 학습과 종교적인 학습 사이의 모달적인 차이를 조명할 것이다.둘 다 우리의 호기심에 대해 엄청난 주장을 하고 있지만, 그들의 결론이 충돌할 때 세속적 관점은 단순한 이유로 우세하다: 세속적 영역은 의심을 하나의 방법으로 받아들이고, 경험적 실험에 따른 원칙의 수정이며, 그 결론은 독단적이 아닌 단서적이며, 현실에 대한 평가에서 훨씬 넓은 범위를 가지고 있다.성서학술에서 우리가 알고 있는 엄청난 양의 것은 고고학, 비교언어학, 텍스트 형식 분석, 비헤브라질적 출처에서 나오며, 19세기까지 유대교 내부의 논쟁에는 이용할 수 없다.요셉푸스는 바알(π.182 second temple templeυσσ)))에서 바벨의 제2신전 유래를 인용했다.고고학적 기록 발굴을 통해 고대 언어에 대한 훨씬 광범위한 비교지식이 출현했을 때 비로소 이와 같이 미뉴티아에 던져진 빛, 즉 악카디안의 바벨은 '신의 문'과 같은 것을 의미했고, 히브리어의 용어는 아마도 민속의 어원(Akkkadian babalu('s'to sport)을 반영하고 있었는데, 그 어원은 뿌리 r이 없었기 때문이다.히브리어로 e플렉스는 그 언어를 '바랄'로 비유함으로써 그 언어에 동화되었다.) 즉.베르그송의 조건을 재개하기 위해서는 특정 헤르메뉴틱 시스템 내에서 지식이 '폐쇄(closed)'되거나, '개방'(secular)될 수 있다.현대 백과사전의 성격상 후자는 중립적인 목소리여야 한다(그리고 종교적인 기사에 대한 위키피디아의 보도는 세속적인 학문으로 분석되는 방법보다는 내부 종교 전통의 탐구를 반영하여 끊임없이 이것을 하지 못한다.타르굼의 어원론적인 부분은 이런 이유로 난센스다:아카디안에게 빌린 루위안 단어다. 그리고 아람어와 히브리어의 반사작용을 가지고 있다.그러나 이것을 고치는 사람은 단 한 사람도 없다.)우리는 폐쇄적이고 개방적인 전통이 말하는, 자연적으로 특권화라는 두 가지 모두에 기초하여, 단서라면, 단서라면, 후자 모두를 기초로, 연대 교섭을 통해 일한다.개혁 유대주의는 첫째로, 이것을 완전히 수용한다.니시다니 (토크) 09:16, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 안녕 @니시다니:나는 항상 너의 소식을 즐겨 듣는다.나는 WP가 아닌 당신의 POV에 감사한다.종교에 관한 한 NPOV.당신은 당신의 세속적인 학설의 어떤 믿음과 신으로든 수십억 명의 신자들을 설득하지 못할 것이다.더 말해야겠어.당신의 관찰이 유대교 이외의 '성경적 장학금'에 대해서는 사실일지 모르지만, 유대학에서는 사실이 아니며, "세속적 영역은 의심을 방법, 경험적 실험에 의한 원칙의 수정으로 받아들이고, 그 결론은 독단적이 아닌 단서적이며, 현실의 평가에서 훨씬 넓은 범위를 가지고 있다"는 당신의 주장은 사실이 아니다.당신이 중요하게 여기는 모든 기준이 실제로 행해지는 탈무드 연구와 탈무드 에르메뉴틱에 적용된다.분명히 당신은 심각한 예시바에서 실제 시간을 보낸 적이 없고, 그러면 당신은 유대인 종교적인 주장과 방법의 열등감에 대한 당신의 주장이 완전히 틀렸다는 것을 보고 배울 것이다.친절한 안부, IZAK (대화) 13:25, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 사람들은 심지어 하나의 '신앙' 안에서조차 매우 다른 방식으로 믿는다.'구분만'나는 어느 누구도 '공감'할 수 있는 게임에 빠져 있지 않다.너는 내 요점을 이해하지 못했다.세트 이론에서 나온 이미지를 제공하겠다.A를 감싸고 있는 원 안에 더 작은 원(B)이 있다고 상상해 보십시오.세속적인 성서적 학문을 위해, 여기서 B는 타나크족, 탈무드족, 그 이후의 광견병적 논평의 총 산출물일 것이며, 예시바들이 집중하는 것이며, 지식의 본질적이고 근본적인 부분을 형성할 것이다.이 '하위'는 '상위'와 콤팩트하지 않다.B 이외의 분야는 현대 장학금으로 구성되는 분야로, 즉 고대사, 고고학, 비교학 및 셈어학, 형식 이론과 텍스트 비평, 대학에서 행하는 유전학, 유대학 등을 모두 포함하는 학문이다.내가 에스더라는 이름의 어원을 어떻게 했는가를 한번 살펴봐라. 그것은 WP였다.아니면 내가 고치기 전에 망치던가.즉, 여기서는 초기의 광견병적 의견(B)에서 시작하여 현대적인 학구적 추정치를 제공하는데, 그 중 하나는 두 현자의 정반대되는 견해 중 한 가지에 해당된다.예시바가 B로 한정하면 폐쇄적인 세계다. A에게 열려있으면 유대인 학문을 얻고 문제를 훨씬 더 정확하게 파악한다.그런데, 아래로는 메시아닉 유대교는 새로운 것이 아니다.기독교는 유대인의 이단으로 시작되었고, 12번째 축도의 매일 기도하는 것이 그 하나를 연상시킨다.그런 의미에서 그라코-주도-기독교 문명 안에서 길러진 사람들은 모두 좋은 부분, 개념적으로 유대인이다.만약 그것이 이해된다면 서구의 반유대주의는 용어상 모순이 될 것이다.니시다니 (토크) 14:55, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 이 TBAN을 지지하는 사람들은 왜 컨센서스가 항상 좋은 것이 아닌지를 보여주고 있다.정교회 유대교의 이단어는 정교회 유대인들이 정의한 법적 용어다.이제 위키피디아가 좋아하지 않기 때문에 기사를 그렇게 표시할 수 없다고 말할 거야?이단자로 선언된다고 해서 당신이 전 유대가 되는 것이 아니라, 그것은 단지 법률 용어일 뿐이다.개혁 유대교는 보수적이고 정통적인 유대주의에 따른 이단적인 운동으로, 개인들이 아니라 운동이다.마치 기독교 종파들이 같은 감정을 가지고 있는 것처럼.OP는 이삭이 메시아닉 유대교에 태그를 추가하는 것을 되돌렸다는 것을 명심하라.누군가 빻아야 할 도끼가 있는 게 분명해.— Joseph 경이 추가한 이전의 서명되지 않은 논평 (대화 • 기여)
- 만약 여러분이 WP가 아닌 주요 출처를 바탕으로 한 기사를 원하신다면, 그것이 무엇을 그리고 왜 정통 유대교에서 이단적인 것을 발견하는지에 대해 논한다면, 괜찮다.그러나 위키피디아의 목소리에 이런 카테고리를 추가하는 것은 잘못된 것이다.정보가 wp:due인 경우(즉, 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 그룹 X에 의해 이단으로 보이는 움직임을 자주 언급) 해당 그룹에 대한 기사 본문에 추가될 수도 있다.사실은 이단이 실체가 아니라, 문제의 집단의 시각에 따라, 이것이 일종의 '법'으로 성문화되는지 여부에 달려 있다는 것이다.
- 그리고 왜 메시아닉 유대교의 덧셈을 되돌리는 것이 내가 갈고 닦을 도끼가 있다는 것을 보여주어야 하는가?메시아닉 유대교는 본질적으로 잘못되고 이단적이라는 말씀이세요?그건 POV라고 해.나는 원래 사두체에서 그를 전향시켰는데, 다음엔 내가 사두체임을 제안할 것인가?--에르멘리히 (대화) 13:44, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[ 하라
- @Ermenrich: 메시아닉 유대교는 기독교의 종파다.단 한 명의 유대인 운동도 그들을 받아들이지 않는다.너는 지금 기독교라고 말하고 있니?유대교도?자신의 논리가 얼마나 꼬일 수 있을까?IZAK (대화) 14:05, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 음, 네 말대로 메시안 유대교가 기독교 종파라면 어떻게 유대교 이단이 될 수 있겠니?'트위드 논리'에 대해 이야기하라--에르멘리히 (대화) 14:14, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 예수를 받아들이고 나서 케이크를 먹고 싶은 것은 유대인들이며, 그들은 여전히 '유대주의'의 형태를 실천하고 있다고 말하고 있으며, 그들은 예수를 유대인 운동이 하지 않는 '유대인 메시아'로 받아들인다.그래서 유대인들이 유대교의 신념을 부정하는 거짓 주장을 제기하는 것에 관여하고 있기 때문에 그것은 유대인 이단이다.이것은 로켓 과학이 아니다.오직 예수를 위해 털실로 염색한 유대인들만이 당신의 주장을 사용한다.IZAK (대화) 14:22, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 나는 살면서 여러 가지로 비난을 받아왔지만, 예수님의 유대인이라는 것은 결코 아니었다.당신이 알고 있는 (매우 이상한) 광고 호미넴인가?--에르멘리히 (토크) 14:40, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 에레멘리치, 넌 내가 하는 모든 말을 개인적인 설명으로 받아들여.참고, 만약 내가 너를 모욕하고 싶다면, 내가 직접 너에게 말을 할 것이고 너를 의미하는 것을 분명히 할 것이니, 내 말을 왜곡하지 말아라.고마워, IZAK (토크) 16:02, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 아주 잘하는 것 같군, 만약 내가 wp:AFG, 네 말이 무엇을 의미하는지 이해하지 못하겠다.
예수님을 위해
털실로 염색
한유대인들
이당신의 주장을 이용
한다면, 나는 예수님이 그것들을 이용하기 위해 유대인이 되어야 한다.어쨌든 두 가지 방법 모두 가질 수는 없다: 예수를 위한 유대인은 기독교인이거나, 그 경우 유대인 이단이 아니거나, 아니면 다른 유대인 집단이 그들을 이단으로 간주할 수도 있지만, 그들이 이단인지 결정하는 것은 위키피디아에 달려 있지 않다.만약 그들 자신이 유대인이라면, 모든 유대인 집단이 그들을 이단적이라고 생각하는 것은 분명 사실이 아니다: 그들은 유대인 집단이고, 그들은 스스로를 이단적이라고 생각하지 않는다.그 기사는 이미 그들이 말하는 것과 그것에 대해 생각하는 (다른) 유대인들의 문제를 다루고 있다.'유대주의 이단' 카테고리를 추가하는 것은 도움이 되거나 생산적이지 않다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 17:21, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[- 또 시작이군.그들은 (대부분) 예수를 받아들인 유대인이고, 동시에 (예수를 위해) 유태인으로 남기를 원한다.교차로고 그들은 양쪽 다 가질 수 없다. 만약 그들이 유대인이라면 그들은 유대인 신을 부정하기 때문에 이단자들이다.만약 그들이 기독교인이라면, 네가 옳고, 그들에게 이렇게 말해줘, 그러므로 그들이 유대인이 될 수 없다고.비논리적으로 들리겠지만, 그것이 그들이 믿는 것이다.그들은 진심으로 그들의 불상사를 믿으며, 그것을 나에게 덮어씌우지 말며, 아아 모든 유대교가 동의하는 것은 유대교의 헤리시다.IZAK (대화) 17:49, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 그들은 확실히 양쪽 다 가질 수 있어. 그건 그들의 종교지, 네 종교도 아니고 내 종교도 아니야.다른 유대교 종파들이 그들을 이단자로 간주하든 그렇지 않든 그것은 특별히 중요하지 않다.위키피디아는 신념의 치안 유지에 관여하지 않는다.그리고 당신의 논평에 따르면, 예수님이 유대교에서 거짓 예언자라면 기독교는 이단으로 분류되어야 한다고 쉽게 주장할 수 있을 것이다.wp:due에 따라 기사 본문에 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 사용하는 것, 내가 말한 바와 같이 그러한 질문을 다루지 않고 이 문제에 관여하지 않는 것이 좋다:--Ermenrich (talk) 18:54, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 에르멘리히—당신은 "
다른 유대교
종파가그들을 이단자로 간주하든 그렇지
않든 그것은특별히 중요하지 않다"
고 말한다.
물론 그것은"물건
"이다.
아니면 적어도 그것은 문제가 될 수 있다.이것은 네가 무엇이 중요하고 중요하지 않은지에 대해 웅변을 늘어놓는 토론회가 아니다.한 정체성의 하위 집합이 동일한 정체성의 다른 하위 집합을 "이단적"으로 간주하는 것은 잠재적으로 "완전성" 물질이다.왜 우리는 그것을 독자에게 전달하고 싶지 않을까?버스정류장(토크) 19:03, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[- 버스정류장 오해하시는 군요.물론 그것은 중요할 수 있으며, wp가 다음과 같은 경우:RS는 대부분의 다른 유대인 단체들이 언급할 만한 것 이상으로 보고 있다고 보고 있다(메시아어 유대교 기사에서 언급된 것으로 알고 있다).내가 반대하는 것은 위키피디아의 목소리에 있는 범주로서 유대교에서는 무엇인가 이단이라고 말하는 것이다.남들이 생각하는 것이 중요한데, 메시아닉 유대교의 신봉자들은 분명히 자신들이 이단적이라고 생각하지 않는다.--에르멘리히 (토크) 19:07, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 그렇다, 우리는 백과사전 에르멘리히 내부의 모순을 허용한다.나에게 전화를 걸어줘서 고마워.내 생각에 우리의 분류는 그러한 모순의 전형일 수 있다.서로 모순되는 특정 정보를 다루지 못하는 것 외에는 이것을 피할 수 없다.독자는 약간의 공로를 인정받아야 한다. 그들은 우리의 분류에서 논리를 도출하는 것이 아니다.그들은 우리의 범주화를 항해 도구로 사용하고 있다.만약 그들이 카테고리 트리 안에서 체크아웃하고 싶은 기사를 본다면, 그들은 그렇게 한다.그들은 기사를 클릭해서 신념 체계에 가입하지 않았다.독자들은 우리보다 더 똑똑하다고 가정해야 한다.하지만 그들은 그것을 알지 못하면 우리의 기사 중 하나를 찾을 수 없다.그래서 나는 우리의 분류 과정에 내재된 모순을 선호한다.그리고 나는 또한 가능한 한 오버카테고리화를 선호한다.당신은
"내가 반대하는 것은 위키피디아의 목소리에 있는 카테고리로서 유대교에서 무엇인가 이단이라고 말하는
것"
이라고 쓰시오.나는 카테고리가 "말한다고" 생각하지 않는다.우리는 분류해서 위키피디아의 목소리로 무언가를말하는
것이 아니다.버스정류장 (대화) 19:29, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 그렇다, 우리는 백과사전 에르멘리히 내부의 모순을 허용한다.나에게 전화를 걸어줘서 고마워.내 생각에 우리의 분류는 그러한 모순의 전형일 수 있다.서로 모순되는 특정 정보를 다루지 못하는 것 외에는 이것을 피할 수 없다.독자는 약간의 공로를 인정받아야 한다. 그들은 우리의 분류에서 논리를 도출하는 것이 아니다.그들은 우리의 범주화를 항해 도구로 사용하고 있다.만약 그들이 카테고리 트리 안에서 체크아웃하고 싶은 기사를 본다면, 그들은 그렇게 한다.그들은 기사를 클릭해서 신념 체계에 가입하지 않았다.독자들은 우리보다 더 똑똑하다고 가정해야 한다.하지만 그들은 그것을 알지 못하면 우리의 기사 중 하나를 찾을 수 없다.그래서 나는 우리의 분류 과정에 내재된 모순을 선호한다.그리고 나는 또한 가능한 한 오버카테고리화를 선호한다.당신은
- 버스정류장 오해하시는 군요.물론 그것은 중요할 수 있으며, wp가 다음과 같은 경우:RS는 대부분의 다른 유대인 단체들이 언급할 만한 것 이상으로 보고 있다고 보고 있다(메시아어 유대교 기사에서 언급된 것으로 알고 있다).내가 반대하는 것은 위키피디아의 목소리에 있는 범주로서 유대교에서는 무엇인가 이단이라고 말하는 것이다.남들이 생각하는 것이 중요한데, 메시아닉 유대교의 신봉자들은 분명히 자신들이 이단적이라고 생각하지 않는다.--에르멘리히 (토크) 19:07, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 에르멘리히—당신은 "
- 그들은 확실히 양쪽 다 가질 수 있어. 그건 그들의 종교지, 네 종교도 아니고 내 종교도 아니야.다른 유대교 종파들이 그들을 이단자로 간주하든 그렇지 않든 그것은 특별히 중요하지 않다.위키피디아는 신념의 치안 유지에 관여하지 않는다.그리고 당신의 논평에 따르면, 예수님이 유대교에서 거짓 예언자라면 기독교는 이단으로 분류되어야 한다고 쉽게 주장할 수 있을 것이다.wp:due에 따라 기사 본문에 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 사용하는 것, 내가 말한 바와 같이 그러한 질문을 다루지 않고 이 문제에 관여하지 않는 것이 좋다:--Ermenrich (talk) 18:54, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 또 시작이군.그들은 (대부분) 예수를 받아들인 유대인이고, 동시에 (예수를 위해) 유태인으로 남기를 원한다.교차로고 그들은 양쪽 다 가질 수 없다. 만약 그들이 유대인이라면 그들은 유대인 신을 부정하기 때문에 이단자들이다.만약 그들이 기독교인이라면, 네가 옳고, 그들에게 이렇게 말해줘, 그러므로 그들이 유대인이 될 수 없다고.비논리적으로 들리겠지만, 그것이 그들이 믿는 것이다.그들은 진심으로 그들의 불상사를 믿으며, 그것을 나에게 덮어씌우지 말며, 아아 모든 유대교가 동의하는 것은 유대교의 헤리시다.IZAK (대화) 17:49, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 아주 잘하는 것 같군, 만약 내가 wp:AFG, 네 말이 무엇을 의미하는지 이해하지 못하겠다.
- 에레멘리치, 넌 내가 하는 모든 말을 개인적인 설명으로 받아들여.참고, 만약 내가 너를 모욕하고 싶다면, 내가 직접 너에게 말을 할 것이고 너를 의미하는 것을 분명히 할 것이니, 내 말을 왜곡하지 말아라.고마워, IZAK (토크) 16:02, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 나는 살면서 여러 가지로 비난을 받아왔지만, 예수님의 유대인이라는 것은 결코 아니었다.당신이 알고 있는 (매우 이상한) 광고 호미넴인가?--에르멘리히 (토크) 14:40, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 예수를 받아들이고 나서 케이크를 먹고 싶은 것은 유대인들이며, 그들은 여전히 '유대주의'의 형태를 실천하고 있다고 말하고 있으며, 그들은 예수를 유대인 운동이 하지 않는 '유대인 메시아'로 받아들인다.그래서 유대인들이 유대교의 신념을 부정하는 거짓 주장을 제기하는 것에 관여하고 있기 때문에 그것은 유대인 이단이다.이것은 로켓 과학이 아니다.오직 예수를 위해 털실로 염색한 유대인들만이 당신의 주장을 사용한다.IZAK (대화) 14:22, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 음, 네 말대로 메시안 유대교가 기독교 종파라면 어떻게 유대교 이단이 될 수 있겠니?'트위드 논리'에 대해 이야기하라--에르멘리히 (대화) 14:14, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 에르멘리히, 메시아어 유대교는 예수를 믿으며 산문화에 익숙하다.이들을 진짜 유대인으로 여기는 움직임은 없고, rs도 풍부하다.그러나 다시 말하지만, 그 범주들은 위키백과의 이단이 아니라 유대교의 이단에 관한 것이다.조셉 경 (2020년 6월 14일 (UTC) 14 10,
- @Ermenrich: 메시아닉 유대교는 기독교의 종파다.단 한 명의 유대인 운동도 그들을 받아들이지 않는다.너는 지금 기독교라고 말하고 있니?유대교도?자신의 논리가 얼마나 꼬일 수 있을까?IZAK (대화) 14:05, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 강한 반대 - 이것이 어떻게 검열이나 옹호와는 관련이 없는가?우리가 편집자의 동의 여부와 상관없이, 그들이 RS에 인용된 자료를 추가하고 있고 그것이 기사와 관련이 있다면, 우리는 그것을 포함시켜야 한다. 특히 그것이 다른 POV인 경우에는 더욱 그렇다.그것은 다양성과 NPOV라고 불린다.WP는 단일 POV를 소유하지 않는다 - 우리는 균일하지 않으며, 우리는 그들의 POV에 동의하지 않기 때문에 편집자를 금지하거나 차단해서는 안 된다.토론에서 한 가지 주장을 하는 것이 반드시 석연치 않은 것은 아니다 - 반대파를 좀더 자세히 들여다보자 - 아마도 그들은 특히 편집자가 공격적인 반대파에게 유효한 주장을 제시해야 할 때 검열, 백일화 등에서처럼 부정적인 자료를 배제하기 위해 석벽화일 것이다.Atsme Talk 📧 2020년 6월 14일(UTC) 14:10[
- Atsme, 위키피디아의 목소리에 그가 추가된 것을 지지하는 믿을 만한 소식통들은 무엇인가?과연 어떤 비 wp:primary source가 그의 추가를 전혀 지지하지 않는가?--Ermenrich (대화) 14:15, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- Atsme, 부디 WP의 내 리스트를 생각해봐:YWAB. 만약 편집자가 과학적인 인종차별주의나 홍수 지질학이 수용된 과학을 묘사하고 있으며 위키피디아가 그것을 다양성의 이름으로 진실이라고 제시해야 한다고 말하려 한다면, 당신은 그들을 반대하는 사람들을 "검열, 백일화 등 부정적인 자료를 배제하기 위한 돌벽"이라고 비난할 것인가? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:47, 2020년 6월 14일 (UT)C)[ 하라
- 내가 정말 유대인의 신앙 원리를 검토해야 하나?특히 마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원칙을 보편적으로 수용했다!IZAK (대화) 14:25, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 유대인의 신앙 원리와 마이모니데스는 둘 다 wp:주요 원천이다.그룹 X가 자신이 이단적이라고 말한 후 wp:due의 범위에서만 추가될 수 있다고 wp:2차 출처가 말하지 않는 한 그룹을 사용하여 그룹이 이단적인지 여부를 판단할 수 없다.다시 시도하십시오.
- 정책을 인용하려면:
정책:
위키피디아 기사는 대개 믿을 수 있는 2차 출처의 자료에 의존한다.
기사는 신뢰할 수 있는 2차 출처에 의해 발표된 경우에만 분석적, 평가적, 해석적 또는 합성적 주장을 할 수 있다.
마이모니데스를 이용해 집단이 이단인지 아닌지를 결정하는 것은 명백한 정책 위반이다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 14:27, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[- 에르멘리히, 나는 당신의 숙제나 독서를 해줄 수 없어. 부디 유대인의 신앙 원리를 보라. 당신의 심장이 원하는 모든 이차적 근원에 대한 참조, 그 중 40개 이상을.또한 유대인의 신앙 원리를 참조하라. 그 중 16가지, 마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원리를 분석하는 것을 포함하여.그래서 뭐가 문제야?IZAK (대화) 16:23, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 에르멘리히, 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지 행동적인 문제가 아니다.탐문 수사라는 주장은 잘못된 것이다. 적어도 내 관점에서는.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.그 편집자의 관점에서 볼 때, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.실제로 역사적으로 어떤 일이 일어났는지에 대한 학자적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.당신이 편집 전쟁의 증거로 제공한 3개의 편집은 그 특정 글에 제한이 없는 한 편집의 선을 넘지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 하지만 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다.AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC) 14:42[
- 네가 잘못 알고 있다.역사적으로 실제로 일어난 일이 성경에 기술된 것이라고 생각하는 합법적인 학자는 없다.출애굽기#성경의 기원 및 역사성 및 역사성 참조#히브루 성경/구약성서 참조. --Guy Macon (토크) 14:56, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- Atsme: 이 협업 요청은 여기서 본 것처럼 IZAK 편집의 일부를 되돌린 후에 일어났다.적극적인 토론에서 호감을 기울이자는 말은 아니었지만, 반전을 당한 뒤 같은 생각을 가진 편집자들을 기사에 올린 동기를 살펴보는 것이 타당하다.정상적인 컨센서스 구축 과정을 방해하면서 컨센서스의 균형을 엿보려는 시도였을까.만일 그렇다면, 그것은 WP의 핵심가치를 위반한다.COVERING, 무시해서는 안되며 무시해서는 안 된다. --GoneIn60 (대화) 05:26, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 안녕, GoneIn60 - 가이드라인에 대한 나의 인식에 따르면, 그는 유세를 한 것이 아니라 "같은 주제(또는 밀접하게 관련된 주제)에 대한 이전 토론에 참여한 적이 있는 편집자들에게 협업을 요청했기 때문에, 우리는 단지 유세 의혹에 대해 이견을 가질 수밖에 없을 것이다.우리는 또한 "분야의 전문지식으로 알려진 편집자" 또는 "정보를 계속 전달받기를 요청한 편집자"에게 협업을 요청할 수 있다.결과에 영향을 미치려는 것으로 해석될 수 있는 RfC나 조사가 진행 중이지 않았다.그의 요청은 협력적 도움을 요청했으며, 그렇지 않으면 WP와 일치하지 않는다고 가정했다.AGF. 내가 보고 있는 것은 콘텐츠에 관한 POV 문제임이 분명하며, WP의 핵심에 완전히 반하는 반대 POV를 침묵시키려는 노력의 일환으로 우리의 PAG들이 잘못 작동되고 있는 것이 우려된다.IZAK에 반대하는 분들에게 드리는 제 조언은 포함되거나 제외되기를 원하는 자료에 대해 RfC를 소집하고, 폐막되면 합의사항을 준수하라는 것이다.어렵지 않고, 무엇보다도, 우리는 이 모든 드라마를 피할 수 있었을 텐데, 그렇지 않니?비쇼넨은 IZAK에 한 달 동안 페이지 블록을 부과했는데, 나는 드라마를 중단시키고 IZAK에게 그의 생각을 모으고 그렇게 많은 반대가 있는 기사에 접근할 수 있는 시간을 주는 것이 합리적인 결정이었다고 생각한다.만약 그가 원하는 재료를 추가할 수 있는 학문적 원천을 가지고 있다면, 그는 나중에 RfC에서 그것을 제시하고 칩이 가능한 곳에 떨어지도록 할 수 있다.나는 이 ANI 요청에 근거하여 전체 주제 영역에서 17년 편집자 티밴을 하는 것은 큰 실수라고 생각한다.그리고 그것은 단순히 나의 관점이다.행복한 편집!AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 16일(UTC) 10:53[
- 내가 여기 입장을 취하지 않았다는 사실을 네가 간과한 것 같아.나는 단지 "
동기를 조사하는 것이 타당하다"
고 말했을 뿐인데, 이것은 단순한 내용 논쟁에서 한 단계 벗어난 것이다.행동을 중심으로 맥락을 짜는 것은 이것을 객관적으로 보는 것이지, 그릇된 믿음의 행위가 아니다.네가 그럴듯한 설명을 늘어놓았는데, 내가 반드시 동의하지 않는 것은 아니다.요점은 대범한 계획에서 자동적으로 해고가 되어서는 안 된다는 것이었다.또한, "의견에 근거하여"를 선택하지 않도록 주의를 기울이는 한 "의견 편집자"의 핑은 합법적이다.참여를 넓히고 싶다면 특히 의도적으로 하지 않고 자신에게 유리한 편향에 팁을 주는 식으로 왜곡할 수 없다.이 ANI 토론은 ping 직후에 시작되었기 때문에, 놀 기회가 없었던 것처럼 보인다.그 점을 지적하고 넘어가는 것에 만족한다. --GoneIn60 (대화) 11:34, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[- 안녕 Atsme, IZAK에 통보된 어떤 편집자도 출애굽기 또는 기사/토크페이지와 관련된 어떤 것도 편집한 적이 없다.만약 그랬다면, 나는 분명히 그가 탐문 수사를 했다고 비난하지 않았을 것이다."일반적으로 유대인 주제"를 출애굽기 관련으로 보지 않는 한, 그들 역시 그와 관련된 어떤 것도 편집한 적이 없다.나는 이것을 전적으로 선의로 묻는다: 이 다른 편집자들이 이전에 엑소더스 사건에 연루되었다는 것을 어떻게 알 수 있는가?나는 당신과 당신의 의견을 존중하며, 당신의 추리를 진심으로 알고 싶다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 15:47, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- (갈등 편집) 안녕, 에르멘리히, 친절한 말 고마워, 그리고 내가 그 감정에 보답한다는 것을 알아줘.나는 유대교, 이스라엘, 그리고/또는 유대교 기도에 중심적인 어떤 것이든 밀접하게 관련된 주제들이 포함될 것이라고 믿는다. 그래서 나는 편집자 상호 작용 도구를 사용하여 접촉한 편집자들과 IZAK 양쪽 모두에게 어떤 유형의 기사들이 흥미로웠는지 보았다.그 결과 관련 주제가 확인되었다.기사 개선에 도움을 주기 위해 관련 주제를 협업한 5, 6명의 편집자에게 물어보는 것이 허용될 수 있다고 나는 생각한다.광고 가이드라인의 취지를 잘못 해석하기 쉽기 때문에 후자는 편집자들이 알아야 할 중요한데, 그 결과 아무것도 나오지 않았다는 사실은 말할 것도 없다.AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC) 17:12 [
- @에르멘리히:당신은 왜 그들이 당신이 WP라고 생각하는 기사들을 편집하지 않는지 아십니까?왜냐하면 그들은 여러분과 같은 편집자들과 논쟁하는 것을 두려워하기 때문이다. 그들은 그들의 학구적인 기여를 위해 그들을 공격할 것이다.그들은 겸손하고 나의 WP:BEBOLD와 WP:INGERALLRULES(물론 이유 내에서)!나는 @Ibn Daud와 같은 편집자들이 다음과 같은 사실을 알고 있다.@Ar2332:@SamsonKriger:@요닌아:@תאא קמ:: 히브리어 성경 기사에 유대인과 토라 장학금의 엄청난 깊이를 기고할 수 있고 매우 행복할 수 있을 것이다. 그러나 그들은 세속적인 성서 비평 편집자들에 의해 머리를 날려버리는 것을 피한다. 여기서 보시다시피.그래서 그들을 멀리하게 하는 것은 두려움이며, 나는 그들을 그들의 겉모습에서 꺼내어 WP에서 '위키피디아 마라노스'처럼 공포 속에 살지 않아도 되겠다는 생각이었다.IZAK (대화) 17:03, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- (갈등 편집) 안녕, 에르멘리히, 친절한 말 고마워, 그리고 내가 그 감정에 보답한다는 것을 알아줘.나는 유대교, 이스라엘, 그리고/또는 유대교 기도에 중심적인 어떤 것이든 밀접하게 관련된 주제들이 포함될 것이라고 믿는다. 그래서 나는 편집자 상호 작용 도구를 사용하여 접촉한 편집자들과 IZAK 양쪽 모두에게 어떤 유형의 기사들이 흥미로웠는지 보았다.그 결과 관련 주제가 확인되었다.기사 개선에 도움을 주기 위해 관련 주제를 협업한 5, 6명의 편집자에게 물어보는 것이 허용될 수 있다고 나는 생각한다.광고 가이드라인의 취지를 잘못 해석하기 쉽기 때문에 후자는 편집자들이 알아야 할 중요한데, 그 결과 아무것도 나오지 않았다는 사실은 말할 것도 없다.AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC) 17:12 [
- 안녕 Atsme, IZAK에 통보된 어떤 편집자도 출애굽기 또는 기사/토크페이지와 관련된 어떤 것도 편집한 적이 없다.만약 그랬다면, 나는 분명히 그가 탐문 수사를 했다고 비난하지 않았을 것이다."일반적으로 유대인 주제"를 출애굽기 관련으로 보지 않는 한, 그들 역시 그와 관련된 어떤 것도 편집한 적이 없다.나는 이것을 전적으로 선의로 묻는다: 이 다른 편집자들이 이전에 엑소더스 사건에 연루되었다는 것을 어떻게 알 수 있는가?나는 당신과 당신의 의견을 존중하며, 당신의 추리를 진심으로 알고 싶다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 15:47, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 내가 여기 입장을 취하지 않았다는 사실을 네가 간과한 것 같아.나는 단지 "
- 안녕, GoneIn60 - 가이드라인에 대한 나의 인식에 따르면, 그는 유세를 한 것이 아니라 "같은 주제(또는 밀접하게 관련된 주제)에 대한 이전 토론에 참여한 적이 있는 편집자들에게 협업을 요청했기 때문에, 우리는 단지 유세 의혹에 대해 이견을 가질 수밖에 없을 것이다.우리는 또한 "분야의 전문지식으로 알려진 편집자" 또는 "정보를 계속 전달받기를 요청한 편집자"에게 협업을 요청할 수 있다.결과에 영향을 미치려는 것으로 해석될 수 있는 RfC나 조사가 진행 중이지 않았다.그의 요청은 협력적 도움을 요청했으며, 그렇지 않으면 WP와 일치하지 않는다고 가정했다.AGF. 내가 보고 있는 것은 콘텐츠에 관한 POV 문제임이 분명하며, WP의 핵심에 완전히 반하는 반대 POV를 침묵시키려는 노력의 일환으로 우리의 PAG들이 잘못 작동되고 있는 것이 우려된다.IZAK에 반대하는 분들에게 드리는 제 조언은 포함되거나 제외되기를 원하는 자료에 대해 RfC를 소집하고, 폐막되면 합의사항을 준수하라는 것이다.어렵지 않고, 무엇보다도, 우리는 이 모든 드라마를 피할 수 있었을 텐데, 그렇지 않니?비쇼넨은 IZAK에 한 달 동안 페이지 블록을 부과했는데, 나는 드라마를 중단시키고 IZAK에게 그의 생각을 모으고 그렇게 많은 반대가 있는 기사에 접근할 수 있는 시간을 주는 것이 합리적인 결정이었다고 생각한다.만약 그가 원하는 재료를 추가할 수 있는 학문적 원천을 가지고 있다면, 그는 나중에 RfC에서 그것을 제시하고 칩이 가능한 곳에 떨어지도록 할 수 있다.나는 이 ANI 요청에 근거하여 전체 주제 영역에서 17년 편집자 티밴을 하는 것은 큰 실수라고 생각한다.그리고 그것은 단순히 나의 관점이다.행복한 편집!AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 16일(UTC) 10:53[
- 에르멘리히, 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지 행동적인 문제가 아니다.탐문 수사라는 주장은 잘못된 것이다. 적어도 내 관점에서는.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.그 편집자의 관점에서 볼 때, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.실제로 역사적으로 어떤 일이 일어났는지에 대한 학자적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.당신이 편집 전쟁의 증거로 제공한 3개의 편집은 그 특정 글에 제한이 없는 한 편집의 선을 넘지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 하지만 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다.AtsmeTalk📧 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC) 14:42[
- 에르멘리히, 나는 당신의 숙제나 독서를 해줄 수 없어. 부디 유대인의 신앙 원리를 보라. 당신의 심장이 원하는 모든 이차적 근원에 대한 참조, 그 중 40개 이상을.또한 유대인의 신앙 원리를 참조하라. 그 중 16가지, 마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원리를 분석하는 것을 포함하여.그래서 뭐가 문제야?IZAK (대화) 16:23, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- Atsme, 위키피디아의 목소리에 그가 추가된 것을 지지하는 믿을 만한 소식통들은 무엇인가?과연 어떤 비 wp:primary source가 그의 추가를 전혀 지지하지 않는가?--Ermenrich (대화) 14:15, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 지원 이것은 백과사전이 아니라 백과사전이요, 상상 하늘 마법사의 한 신도 집단에 대한 그들의 (대부분 불쾌한) 개인적 믿음을 다른 하늘 마법사에 밀어넣기 위한 것이다.만약 우리가 상기의 애완동물 기사와 비슷한 범주를 추가하기 시작한다면 어떤 일이 일어날지 정확히 추측할 수 있다.오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(대화) 15:05, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 죽음 속에서만—위키피디아는 창의적인 글쓰기 프로젝트가 아니다.이 논의에서
"상상적인 하늘 마법사"
에 대한 언급은 없다.만약 여러분이 관심을 갖고 싶다면, 주제에 머물면서"상상적인 하늘 마법사"
와 같은 억지스러운 참고자료에 대한 링크를 제공한다면 도움이 될 것이다.버스정류장(토크) 16:37, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 나는 너의 코멘트를 고려할 것이다.오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(대화) 16:42, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 죽음 속에서만—위키피디아는 창의적인 글쓰기 프로젝트가 아니다.이 논의에서
- 지지 나는 다른 어떤 지지자들에 의해 이루어진 다른 사람들의 신앙에 대한 무시적인 논평에는 동의하지 않는다. 다른 것은 아니지만, 그들은 요점을 벗어난 것이다. 하지만 나는 컬렌, 보잉! 그리고 오노이츠자미에 의해 제시된 이유들에 따라 주제 금지가 필요하다고 믿는다. --보나데콘트리뷰션 토크 15:38, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 보나데아— 위키피디아와 같은 일반적인 목적 참조 작품의 틀을 설명하는 계몽된 틀 안에서, "
신앙"
은 결코"신앙"
의"비교"
가 될 수 없다."다른 지지자들에 의해 만들어진
다른사람들의 신앙에 대한 모욕적인 발언"
이 보입니까?나는 그렇지 않다.버스정류장 (대화) 16:25, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 보나데아— 위키피디아와 같은 일반적인 목적 참조 작품의 틀을 설명하는 계몽된 틀 안에서, "
- 위의 요셉 경의 주장대로 강한 반대. - 리사 (대화 - 기여) 17:21, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 강력한 지원: 본 섹션의 시작 부분에 있는 제안자와 주제 사이의 대화별로.그것은 가장 터무니없는 종교적인 POV 추진이다(그리고 WP:IDHT) 나는 오랫동안 위키에서 본 적이 있다.헤이로 17:52, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 지원 WP:NOTSOAPBOX: 위키피디아는 종교적인 논쟁이나 다른 형태의 POV 추진에 관여하는 곳이 아니며, 분명히 이 편집자는 이 분야에서 그러한 행동을 반복적으로 해왔다.랜덤캐나디언 (대화/기여) 17:56, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- WP별 지원:OverCAT 및 Cullen328에 의해 명시된 이유.또한 IZAK의 대응은 WP에 대한 의지가 부족하다는 것을 나타낸다.지역 사회의 말을 들어라.위의 첫 번째 코멘트에 따르면, 이것은 내가 분비를 줄이고 피하고 싶었지만, 지금은 그것이 올바른 선택이라고 믿고 있다. // 티모시 :: 토크 18:20, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 전면적인 주제 금지에 반대한다.이 금지령을 지지하는 사람들조차 언급했듯이, IZAK는 선의로 편집하고, 위키피디아의 영역에 진입할 수 있는 강인함을 지녔으며, 이로 인해 엄청난 화상을 입게 되었다.그들은 또한 많은 편집자들로부터 "관찰"을 받고 있다. 즉, 문제의 입장에 동의하거나 동의하지 않을 수 있는 편집자들 둘 다. 그리고 나는, 한 사람으로서, 어떤 면에서, 위에 쌓여가는 것에 대해 다소 우려하고 있다.다음 x-양(월)에 대해 제안할 수 있다.IZAK는 토론 페이지에서 논의될 때까지 논란의 여지가 있는 편집은 하지 않는 것을 고려해야 한다.안드토론은 양쪽이 장점을 논하는 것이지 IZAK이기 때문에 단순 부정하는 것이 아니다.나는 주제 금지가 강요할 생산적인 편집자의 노력을 잃는 것은 그 프로젝트에 대한 순손상이라고 생각한다.편집하기 전에, 그 문제에 대해서는 누구라도 더 많은 논의를 하는 것이 좋겠지만, 여기서 IZAK에 대해 논하는 것처럼, 우리는 그 사람부터 시작할 수 있다. -- 에이비 (토크) 19:42, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 만약 유대교에게 금지령이 적용된다면, 나는 위의 모든 단어를 쓸 것이다.유대교의 이단에 관한 것이라고 생각해. 그건 정말 제한적인 분야야. 그리고 기권한다고 해서 그의 생산성이 떨어지진 않을 거야.유대교에서 확실히 그는 의심할 여지 없이 많은 것을 제공한다.골치 아픈 잠재적 문제는 성경에 관한 역사적 논문의 영역이다.현대사적 접근은 모든 신앙의 전통주의자들을 불안하게 만들고, 99%의 믿을 만한 학문적 전문적 출처에 도전할 여지가 거의 없다는 것을 그가 받아들여야 한다고 생각한다.난해한 해석은 공동체 내에서 괜찮지만 백과사전적 연구에는 적절하지 않다.(너희들을 주변에서 보니 좋구나, 그건 그렇고, 에이비) 나는 이런 종류의 문제에 대해 어느 쪽이든 투표하는 것을 삼간다. 왜냐하면 나의 투표는 필연적으로, 정치적 또는 그 밖의 것으로 보일 것이기 때문이다.니시다니 (토크) 20:26, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 유대교의 주제 금지에 반대한다. 나는 IZAK가 그 분야에서 매우 훌륭한 기여자라고 생각한다.그가 사이비과학을 밀어붙이거나 그의 종교의 다른 분야들을 공격할 때 비로소 나는 그의 편집에 문제가 있다.현명한 마무리 관리자는 목욕물로 아기를 버리지 않는 문구를 만들 수 있어야 한다. --Guy Macon (대화) 20:58, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 유대교를 금지하는 주제를 제안한 사람이 있나?그것은 확실히 나의 의도가 아니었다.—Ermenrich (대화) 21:04, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 나는 단지 "만약 유대교에게 금지령이 적용된다면..." 위와 같은 가상의"그것이 제안이 된다면 단일 지지자가 될 수 있을지 의문이다.당신의 행동이 ANI에서 논의되는 것이 상당히 스트레스를 줄 수 있다는 것도 깨달았고, 종교의 유사성과 이단성이라고 하는 영역을 벗어나 IZAK에 대한 높은 의견을 분명히 하고 싶었다. --Guy Macon (토크) 21:11, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 유대교를 금지하는 주제를 제안한 사람이 있나?그것은 확실히 나의 의도가 아니었다.—Ermenrich (대화) 21:04, 2020년 6월 14일 (UTC)[
- 더 가까이에서 언급 - 아무도 실제로 제안하지 않은 유대교 전체로부터의 가상적 금지에 관한 !보트와 논의 중인 실제 제안과 관련된 !보트를 구별하는 데 주의를 기울이십시오.감사합니다.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 01:03, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 지원 - 그러나 유대교 범주 태그의 이단 사용에 대한 단순한 금지.이것을 넘어서는 중대한 문제들에 대한 증거가 없다, 유대교 전체 분야에서 확실히 아니다.지금은 이 사용자가 더 이상 유대교 태그의 이단을 기사에 추가할 수 없도록 하십시오.수제 연필 (토크) 02:04, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
*어떤 금지도 반대한다. 위키피디아는 검열되지 않았다. 유대교 내에서 논쟁은 정상적이다. 눈송이는 솔직함과 논쟁의 강압성에 반대한다. 노골적으로 말하면 할 말이 있다. 버스정류장 (토크) 02:07, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC) (스트라이킹 투표)미안해. 두 번 투표했어.)
- 위키피디아는 종파간 싸움을 하는 곳이 아니다.그리고 눈송이를 누구라고 부르는 거야?헤이로 02:19, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 제발 분명하게 말해줘: 어떤
"종족간
의 전투"
를 말하는 거야?버스정류장 (토크) 02:28, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[- "유대주의 내에서 논쟁은 정상적인 것"이라고 하셨잖아요, 난 단지 위키피디아가 그럴만한 장소가 아니라는 걸 지적한 것뿐이에요.자, 어떤 편집자들이 눈송이라고 부르는 겁니까?헤이로 02:39, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 위키에서 발견되는 "눈꽃"의 의미 중 하나는 "너무 예민한 사람"이다.우리는 누군가가 정상적인 거친 논쟁에 관여하고 유대교가 화해할 수 없는 차이를 발견하는 장소들을 대표한다는 것, 즉 "이단적"이라는 단어로 표현되는 것을 금지하는 주제를 다룰 것인가?버스정류장 (토크) 02:54, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 위키피디아는 교리적인 문제에 대해 논쟁하는 포럼은 아니지만, 가장 중요한 것은 위키피디아의 목소리로 다른 종교집단의 의견을 제시하는 장소가 분명 아니다.기독교 유대교가 그 종파에 대한 전통적인 유대교의 의견을 진술하는 적절한 소싱된 문장을 포함시키는 것은 괜찮겠지만, 그것을 분류에 의해 이단이라고 부르는 것은 분명히 옳지 않다.그것은 범주 시스템의 남용이다.03talk:12, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 00000, "정교 유대교의 히르시"라고 불리는 카테고리는 위키백과의 목소리에 있지 않고 정교 유대교의 헤레시 카테고리 입니다.우리가 이제 기독교 이단 부문을 다 벗어야 하나?이 기사는 어떤가?List_of_heesis_in_the_Catholic_Church. 그것을 실천하는 사람들에게는 불쾌하지 않은가?조셉 경 03:29, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 위키피디아는 교리적인 문제에 대해 논쟁하는 포럼은 아니지만, 가장 중요한 것은 위키피디아의 목소리로 다른 종교집단의 의견을 제시하는 장소가 분명 아니다.기독교 유대교가 그 종파에 대한 전통적인 유대교의 의견을 진술하는 적절한 소싱된 문장을 포함시키는 것은 괜찮겠지만, 그것을 분류에 의해 이단이라고 부르는 것은 분명히 옳지 않다.그것은 범주 시스템의 남용이다.03talk:12, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 위키에서 발견되는 "눈꽃"의 의미 중 하나는 "너무 예민한 사람"이다.우리는 누군가가 정상적인 거친 논쟁에 관여하고 유대교가 화해할 수 없는 차이를 발견하는 장소들을 대표한다는 것, 즉 "이단적"이라는 단어로 표현되는 것을 금지하는 주제를 다룰 것인가?버스정류장 (토크) 02:54, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- "유대주의 내에서 논쟁은 정상적인 것"이라고 하셨잖아요, 난 단지 위키피디아가 그럴만한 장소가 아니라는 걸 지적한 것뿐이에요.자, 어떤 편집자들이 눈송이라고 부르는 겁니까?헤이로 02:39, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 제발 분명하게 말해줘: 어떤
- 위키피디아는 종파간 싸움을 하는 곳이 아니다.그리고 눈송이를 누구라고 부르는 거야?헤이로 02:19, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 아니, 그것은 "
범주 시스템의 남용"
인 Zero0000이 아니다.범주 시스템은 모순을 용인할 수 있다.그리고 아무도"교리적인 문제에 대해 논쟁
하지 않는다".
당신은 정말로 "이단"이 우리의 카테고리 시스템에 표현될 수 없다고 생각하는가?두 집단이 서로를 "이단적"이라고 부른다면 어떻게 문제가 될 수 있을까?그것은 위키피디아의 목소리에 있지 않다.분류 체계는 음성이 없다.그렇다, "시사"는 존재하지만, 우리는 선택권이 있다. 우리는 우리의 카테고리 시스템 내에서 "시사" 모순을 학구적으로 피하거나, 유대교의 두 하위 집합 각각에 대한 견해를 정확하게 표현한다.나는 믿을 수 있게 소싱된 정보를 대표하는 것을 선호한다.나는 우리의 카테고리 시스템이 모순되는 것처럼 보이는 것이 그렇게 중요하다고 생각하지 않는다.카테고리 시스템은 네비게이션 도구로, 독자들이 관심 있는 기사를 찾는데 도움을 준다.모순을 생략한다는 것은 독자들이 관심 있는 주제 영역과 관련된 기사들의 카테고리 트리를 통해 독자들이 올라오지 않는다는 것을 의미한다.버스정류장(토크) 04:03, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[- @Bus stop:이 범주의 이름은 적어도 누구의 의견인지 나타내는 "정교 유대교의 이단적 고려 운동"이 아니라 "정교 유대교의 이단"이라는 이름이라는 점에 유의한다.그래도 난 별로 좋아하지 않을 거야.정통파 유대교에 관한 기사는 곧 개혁 유대교의 의견을 명시한 범주를 장식할 것인가?곧 하레디 유대교라는 기사가 세속적인 유대인들에 의해 매우 두드러지지 않는 성격을 부여하는 범주에 속할 것인가?유대인들이 개종과 지옥으로 가는 것 중 하나를 선택할 수 있다고 생각하는 기독교 운동들이 있다; 그들 역시 그들의 의견을 표현하는 범주를 가질 수 없을까?왜 안 되지?모든 사람이 누리는 재미는 라벨링으로 가득 차 있다.나는 지금 이 관행을 미연에 방지한다고 말한다.05talk:42, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 당신은
"정교 유다주의에 관한 기사
가 곧 개혁유다주의에 대한 의견을 명시
한 범주를장식할 것인가?"
라고 질문할 때 억지스러운 질문을 하고 있다.개혁 유대주의 안에는 "이단"이라는 개념이 없다.그러나 정통 유대교 안에는 "이단"이라는 개념이 있다.그렇다면, 왜 "정교 유대교의 이단"이라는 범주가 없을까?버스정류장 (토크) 09:17, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[- 나는 "개혁 유대교의 의견"이라고 말했는데, 이단에는 아무 것도 없었다.요점은 의견이 무엇인지에 달려 있지 않다.제로talk 10:28, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 우린 단순한
"오피니언"
에 대한 카테고리를 가질 수 없어, 00000.카테고리를 문제 삼는 경우:정교회 유대교의 이단아, 그렇지 않니?헤리시의 개념은 개혁 유대교에서는 찾아볼 수 없다.가정적으로, "20세기 이탈리아의 추잡한 예술"의 범주가 있다고 가정하면 말이다."15세기 이탈리아의 추상 미술"의 범주가 있을까?왜 안 되지?왜냐하면 추상 미술의 번창은 20세기에 이탈리아를 포함한 많은 나라에서 일어난 것으로 생각되기 때문이다.당신은"정교 유대교에 관한 기사가
곧개혁 유대교의 의견을 명시한 범주
를 장식할것인가?"
라고 말한다.그럴 수 없다.우리는 분류의 매개 변수로서 의견을 가지고 있지 않다.대조적으로, "이단"은 사실 정교회 유대교에서 제도화된 개념이다.카테고리를 갖는 것이 타당하다:정교 유대교의 이단.너는 거만하게 굴고 있다.범주 "정교 유대교의 이단"의 존재는 여러분이나 다른 사람들이 말하듯이"위키피아의 목소리로"
아무 말도 하지 않는다.카테고리는 독자들이 해당 카테고리의 기사를 분류할 수 있도록 하는 매우 건설적인 목적을 제공한다.이것은 분류가 제공되어야 하는 항해 목적이다.버스정류장 (대화) 15:10, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[- 특정 종교 집단의 교리는 의견이다.어쨌든, 너는 내가 준 몇 가지 예시 중 한 가지 세부사항을 따짐으로써 나의 일반적인 요점을 회피하고 있다.제로talk 15:29, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- Zero0000—첫 번째 예시만 설명했는데, 그건 사실이야.당신은 또한 "
해레디 유대교
라는기사가
곧세속적인 유대인에 의해 매우 두드러지지
않는성격을 주는 범주에 속할 것인가?"
라고 물었다.우리는"대단히 변화
없는특성화[s]"
로 분류하지 않는다.첫 번째 예시보다 여기서 대조가 훨씬 더 크다.우리는 세속적인 유대인들 사이에 "이단"이라는 제도화된 개념이 있다고 말할 수 없다.이것들은 세속적인 유대인들의 소수에 의한 변덕에 공유된 실체 없는 의견들이다.우리는 사실상 무의미한 매개변수로 분류하지 않는다.버스정류장 (대화) 15:57, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- Zero0000—첫 번째 예시만 설명했는데, 그건 사실이야.당신은 또한 "
- 특정 종교 집단의 교리는 의견이다.어쨌든, 너는 내가 준 몇 가지 예시 중 한 가지 세부사항을 따짐으로써 나의 일반적인 요점을 회피하고 있다.제로talk 15:29, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 우린 단순한
- 나는 "개혁 유대교의 의견"이라고 말했는데, 이단에는 아무 것도 없었다.요점은 의견이 무엇인지에 달려 있지 않다.제로talk 10:28, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 당신은
- @Bus stop:이 범주의 이름은 적어도 누구의 의견인지 나타내는 "정교 유대교의 이단적 고려 운동"이 아니라 "정교 유대교의 이단"이라는 이름이라는 점에 유의한다.그래도 난 별로 좋아하지 않을 거야.정통파 유대교에 관한 기사는 곧 개혁 유대교의 의견을 명시한 범주를 장식할 것인가?곧 하레디 유대교라는 기사가 세속적인 유대인들에 의해 매우 두드러지지 않는 성격을 부여하는 범주에 속할 것인가?유대인들이 개종과 지옥으로 가는 것 중 하나를 선택할 수 있다고 생각하는 기독교 운동들이 있다; 그들 역시 그들의 의견을 표현하는 범주를 가질 수 없을까?왜 안 되지?모든 사람이 누리는 재미는 라벨링으로 가득 차 있다.나는 지금 이 관행을 미연에 방지한다고 말한다.05talk:42, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 아니, 그것은 "
@Zero0000:따라서 정확하고 합리적인 솔루션(사용자 및 사용자에 따르면:이 상황에 대한 에르멘리히)는 넓은 WP였어야 했다.(지금 정교회 유대교에서 헤시와 있었던 것처럼) 따라야 할 확고한 논의와 함께 WP에서 항상 행해지는 CFD는, 확실히 내가 나를 강하게 표현한다고 해서 나에 대한 근거 없는 복수는 아니지만, 나는 항상 WP를 준수한다.NPOV, 카테고리를 게시하는 중이었습니다.정교회 유대교와 범주의 이단:유대교의 이레시는 유대교의 헤레시와 정교회의 헤레시의 두 조항에 있는 내용을 바탕으로 한다.IZAK (대화) 22:36, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 "당신이 자신을 강하게 표현한다고 해서 당신에게 근거 없는 복수" 때문에 여기 있는 것이 아니다.많은 편집자들은 ANI에서 끝나지 않고 기사 토크 페이지와 사용자 토크 페이지에서 자신들보다 훨씬 더 인기가 없는 의견을 가진 자신을 강하게 표현한다.당신은 [A] 기사와 카테고리에 대한 당신의 편집과 [B] 당신이 당신에게 무엇을 하고 있는지 설명하려고 노력한 많은 편집자들의 조언을 받아들이려 하지 않거나 받아들이지 못하는 것 때문에 여기에 있는 것이다.당신이 이곳에 온 것은 블록이나 주제 금지에 의해 강요되지 않는 한 당신의 행동을 바꾸지 않을 것임을 분명히 했기 때문이다.유일한 질문은 받아들일 수 없는 행동을 멈추는데 필요한 주제 금지의 정확한 성격이다. --Guy Macon (대화) 22:58, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 당신이 지금 자신을 신랄하게 표현하고 있다고 해서, 당신의 소위 주장이 옳다고는 할 수 없다.A 위키백과 WP:CENTDISPUT: 두 가지 범주에 걸쳐 분류:정교회 유대교의 이단(I didn't write) 기사(I dids의 이단(Heresy)을 바탕으로 한 정교회 유대교의 이단(Heresy in Ordism)유대교의 이레시는 유대교의 이레시에 근거한 기사(내가 쓰지 않은 기사)에 근거한 것이다.B 간단한 WP:CFD는 WP에서 이 문제를 해결하기에 충분했을 것이다.내가 협력자 WP에서 지켜온 Civil적인 태도:정교 유대교의 헤레시를 위한 AFD.C 주제 금지 토론의 이 부분에는 "행동" 문제가 존재하지 않는다.D WP의 명확한 규칙을 무시하려는 시도다.NOTCENSORED 및 WP:BEBOLD.마지막으로 사용자:아츠메(문자화는 나의 것이다) : "E가 어떻게 이것이 검열이 아니고, 어떻게 해서든 옹호하고 관계가 없는가?우리가 편집자의 동의 여부와 상관없이, 그들이 RS에 인용된 자료를 추가하고 있고 그것이 기사와 관련이 있다면, 우리는 그것을 포함시켜야 한다. 특히 그것이 다른 POV인 경우에는 더욱 그렇다.F 그것은 다양성과 NPOV라고 불린다.WP는 단일 POV를 소유하지 않는다 - 우리는 균일하지 않다. 그리고 G 우리는 그들의 POV에 동의하지 않기 때문에 편집자를 금지하거나 차단해서는 안 된다.토론에서 한 가지 주장을 하는 것이 반드시 석연치 않은 것은 아니다 - 반대파를 좀 더 자세히 들여다보자 - 아마도 그들은 검열, 백일해 등처럼 부정적인 자료를 멀리하기 위해 석벽일 것이다. 특히 편집자가 공격적인 반대파에게 유효한 주장을 제시해야 할 때....에르멘리히, H는 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지 행동적인 문제가 아니다.나는 적어도 내 관점에서 탐문수사의 주장은 잘못되었다.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.J 질식 의혹은 현실적이지 않다 - 그 편집자의 관점에서, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.K 내가 보기에 실제로 역사적으로 일어난 일에 대한 학문적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.L 당신이 편집 전쟁 증거로서 제공한 3개의 편집은 특정 기사에 제한이 없는 한 편집 전쟁으로 넘어가지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 그러나 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다."IZAK (대화) 02:47, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 여기서 논평 마지막 코멘트, 이삭의 편집은 "악의"로 표시되었고, 목록_of_heesies_in_Catholic_Church라는 목록 기사가 있으며, 20세기 운동의 섹션 아래에는 전 세계 사람들에 의해 행해진 몇 가지 이단적인 움직임, 예를 들어 산타_Muerte, 나는 산타 무에르테를 실천하는 사람들이 그들의 종교적인 감정을 상하게 될 것이라고 생각한다.이온은 이단 목록에 있다.거위, 갠더, 누구 없어?조셉 경 03:33, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 반대한다. 이것은 RFC나 카테고리의 토크 페이지 대신 ANI로 플레이되는 콘텐츠 분쟁이다.IZAK는 일부 내용에 대해서는 여기서 잘못된 편이지만, 그것은 ANI가 아닌 논의와 합의 구축의 문제다.--히페우스 (토크) 10:21, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 보잉 당 이단 라벨에 대한 특정 금지를 지지하고 이 실에서 계속되는 번짐과 이삭의 반응에 의해 강화한다.그랜드팔라마 (대화) 12:34, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- OP가 뭔가 불쾌한 것을 발견했다고 해서 우리 모두가 뭔가를 하고 있는 이유가 있을까?OP가 거듭 말했듯이 "이것은 분명히 기독교인들에게 모욕적인 것이며, 단지 당신이 메시안 유대교를 싫어한다고 해서 그것에 대한 방어가 없다"고?그것이 그의 TBAN의 이유고 많은 지지자들이다.그러나 그것은 정책도 아니고 누군가를 TBAN에 대한 이유도 아니다.만약 그것이 있다면, 이것은 콘텐츠 논쟁이지만 TBAN에게는 당신이 불쾌하다고 생각하는 것을 바탕으로 그들이 어떤 것을 카테고리에 추가하고 있기 때문에 잘못된 것이다.조셉 16:35, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 댓글을 달다.나는 기독교에 대한 구체적인 언급은 찾을 수 없다.정교 유대교의 이단.나는 그 범주의 존재가 어느 누구에게도 불쾌하다고 생각하지 않는다. 비 정형 유대인에게도, 기독교인에게도 불쾌하다고 생각하지 않는다.위키피디아는 검열되지 않았다.왜 우리는 정통 유대인들이 생각하는 '이단'을 분류할 수 없는가?독자는 카테고리 트리를 통해 "이단"이라는 정통 유대교의 개념과 관련될 수 있는 기사를 접해야 한다.버스정류장(토크) 16:50, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 버스정류장, 이 기사는?헤레시_in_기독교성_in_the_modern_era#헤레시_in_the_Catholic_Church Sir Joseph 16:53, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 이것들은 단지 개념일 뿐이고, 그것들이 어디에서 발견되고, 누가 그것을 발행하는 개념일 뿐이다.그리고 분류 체계는 주장을 구성하지 않는다.기껏해야 분류 체계가 함축적 의미를 갖는다.그러나 독자들이 정보를 추적하려면 이것이 필요하다.버스정류장 (대화) 17:01, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 주: 유대교의 기독교관: 유대교@니시다니는 아니다.@Zero0000:@Ermenrich: 주목하십시오. 그 범주:유대교와 범주의 이단:정교회 유대교의 이단교도는 유대교 이외의 비 유대교(신사)가 시행하고 독립한 비 유대교인 기독교, 이슬람교 등 비 유대교 종교에는 적용되지 않는다.그러나 유대교의 이레시는 1세기 유대교의 초기 기독교 종파인 나자레네(섹트)에게 적용된다.사도들과 예수는 예수를 유대인 메시아로 받아들인 유대인이었기 때문에 메시아 청구인 명단에 예수가 추가되었고, 그 시대에 메시아적 청구 가능성이 있었지만 시간이 지나면서 사실이 증명되지 않았기 때문에 "이단"이라는 단어를 붙이기는 어렵다.그러나 기독교와 이슬람에 관한 한 그들은 유대교 내에서 이단적인 운동으로 간주되지 않는다. 다만 유대교가 받아들이지 않는 비유대인(신사)들에 의해 행해진 다른 종교들뿐이다.실제로 마이모니데스는 앞으로 다가올 메시아누스 시대의 개념에 대해 세계를 준비시킨다는 점에서 기독교와 이슬람 모두에게 긍정적인 목적이 있다고 규정한다.IZAK (대화) 18:40, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 광범위한 주제 반을 지지한다.여기 있는 몇몇 사람들은 이것이 단지 내용상의 논쟁이라고 주장하려고 하는 것 같지만, 우리가 어떻게 시작하게 되었는지 무시하는 것 같다; 이 문제는 분명히 편집 전쟁, POV 밀기, 그리고 선거운동과 관련된 것이다.편집자들은 출처를 해석하거나 대변하는 방법에 대해서는 합리적으로 다를 수 있지만, 만약 그들이 논쟁적인 주제들을 파고들려면 그들은 때때로 약간의 주의나 자제력을 보여줄 필요가 있다.그런 점에서, 기사 목소리에서 한 사람을 제외한 거의 모든 유대교 교파를 이단자로 표시해야 한다고 주장하는 것은 이미 WP로부터 부적절하게 멀리 떨어져 있을 것이다.NPOV는 경종을 울리겠지만, 다른 모든 행동 문제들에 더해서 그렇게 하기 위해 그들의 공격적인 노력을 POV를 밀어붙이는 것에만 쏟을 뿐이다.IZUK의 자체 진술은 (관점을 밀어붙이기 위한 범주의 부조리한 사용을 공격적으로 옹호하고, WP:3RR을 과장으로 삼아 편집 전쟁을 방어하며, [38]과 같은 명백한 무차별적인 논평을 효과적으로 "글쎄, 나는 반(反)시미트라는 단어를 사용하지 않았다"고 함으로써) 이 모든 것이 해결되지는 않을 것임을 나타낸다.그 자체도 없다. --조 (대화) 21:32, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 당신은 이해가 안 되고 당신의 POV에 따라 POV가 말한 바와 같이 위에서 반박되었다.Atsme "이것은 어떻게 검열이 아니거나, 또는 어떻게든 옹호하는 것과 관련이 있지 않은가?우리가 편집자의 동의 여부와 상관없이, 그들이 RS에 인용된 자료를 추가하고 있고 그것이 기사와 관련이 있다면, 우리는 그것을 포함시켜야 한다. 특히 그것이 다른 POV인 경우에는 더욱 그렇다.그것은 다양성과 NPOV라고 불린다.WP는 단일 POV를 소유하지 않는다 - 우리는 균일하지 않으며, 우리는 그들의 POV에 동의하지 않기 때문에 편집자를 금지하거나 차단해서는 안 된다.토론에서 한 가지 주장을 하는 것이 반드시 석연치 않은 것은 아니다 - 반대파를 좀 더 자세히 들여다보자 - 아마도 그들은 검열, 백일해 등처럼 부정적인 자료를 멀리하기 위해 석벽일 것이다. 특히 편집자가 공격적인 반대파에게 유효한 주장을 제시해야 할 때....에르멘리히, 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지 행동적인 문제가 아니다.탐문 수사라는 주장은 잘못된 것이다. 적어도 내 관점에서는.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.그 편집자의 관점에서 볼 때, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.실제로 역사적으로 어떤 일이 일어났는지에 대한 학자적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.당신이 편집 전쟁의 증거로 제공한 3개의 편집은 그 특정 글에 제한이 없는 한 편집의 선을 넘지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 그러나 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다."IZAK (대화) 21:51, 2020년 6월 15일 (UTC)[
- 강한 반대.아이작(IZAK)은 수년간 유대인 관련 주제에 대한 폭넓은 지식을 가지고, 온라인 백과사전에 특별한 손길과 차원을 더하는 수준 높은 기고자임을 증명해 왔다.내가 보기에 그의 공헌은 이 백과사전에 매우 귀중하다.그리고 우리 모두는 특정한 이슈에 대해 서로 다를 수 있지만, 이러한 견해에는 항상 어느 정도의 청력/청취권이 주어지며, 그것들은 편집자의 전반적인 좋은 입장과 유용한 기여를 방해하거나 위태롭게 하지 않고 각각의 토크 페이지에서 공개적으로 토론될 수 있다.데이비드베나 (대화) 00:30, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- IZAK에 대한 어떠한 금지에도 강력히 반대한다.이것은 내용상의 논쟁이다.그래서 한번은 IZAK가 대부분 틀렸다.내 관찰 내용을 요약해 볼게.이상적으로는 유대교 기사의 이단으로 충분할 것이다.정통 유대교는 이단에 가장 관심이 많기 때문에 이것은 합법적인 분사지만 IZAK가 아닌 누군가가 너무 일찍 그러한 기사를 시작했다.지금은 좀 많이 자랐지만 다듬고 나면 유효한 물건이다.
- 그 기사의 타당성이 그것이 범주를 가져야 한다는 것을 의미하지는 않는다.사실 그것과 그것의 범주는 정교 이단 기사가 단지 하나의 항목인 유대교의 헤레시와 합쳐져서는 안 된다.다른 종교들은 일반적으로 유대교에 의해 전혀 정의되지 않는다.정통 유대교는 유대교의 다른 부분이나 다른 종교를 규정하지 않는다.여기에는 카라이트 유대교와 사마리아교, 모든 형태의 기독교, 이슬람교 등이 포함된다.내가 아는 두 가지 예외는 "메시아어 유대교"와 "예수를 위한 예수"이다. 이들은 기본이 없는 이들은 그들의 이름을 포함하여 유대교(후자보다 전자가 더 많음)의 일부라고 주장한다.만약 우리가 이러한 움직임을 이 이름들로 유지한다면, 그들의 글의 첫 단락을 포함하여, 이것들은 유대교의 일부가 아니라는 것을 크고 분명하게 기록되어야 한다.이것은 정확하지 않기 위해 다른 종교를 정의하는 유대교의 작은 왜곡이었다.또한 유다 범주에는 이미 이단의 하위 종족인 프랑크주의와 사바테인도 있다.이것들은 역사적인 운동으로 포함될 수 있다.그러나 고양이 시스템에서 이것들을 재탕하는 것에 대한 부가가치는 없다.충분한 V와 RS를 감안할 때 정교 유대교에서는 특정 운동을 이단으로 본다는 것을 기사에서 언급할 수 있다.
- 작은 고양이 한 마리당 과도한 물건을 제거한 뒤 정교유대주의 범주에서 헤레시에 대한 명분이 없다.나는 기꺼이 합병을 제안할 것이다.정의되지 않는 부분을 넘어 이단은 우리의 분류 체계에서 이단과 같지 않다.복수형은 이단(예술 형식은 희극, 아이템은 희극과 비교)을 위해 남겨져 있다.이 사건들은 기본적으로 정의되지 않는다.
- ANI에 속한 건 없어IZAK는 우리의 최고의 기여자들 중 하나이다.그는 가끔 넋을 잃기도 하지만, 또 누가 그렇게 하지 않는가?ANI는 단지 콘텐츠 논쟁의 해답이 아니다.gidonb (대화) 02:01, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- @ 기돈브와 다비드베나: - 이 세상에서
가장 훌륭한 공헌자
중 한사람
이,귀중
한 공헌을 한 것에대해
어떻게 다음과 같은 주장을 하는가? [39]IZAK는 참고문헌이 추가되지 않은 채 약 5%의 확장에 해당하는 81단어의 추가는 아마도 독창적인 연구일 것이며 [40]은 AfD의 논문(정교 유대교의 헤레시 기사)의주요 개선사항
이라고 믿는다.이것은 완전히 절충된 판단이다.starship.paint (talk) 03:03, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[ 하라- 그러니, 만약 그가 실수를 했다면, 그를 문책해라.그것이 그가 이 지역에서 편집하는 것을 전면적으로 금지하는 이유인가?누가 잘못을 저지르지 않는가?나는 IZAK의 다른 기여들 중 많은 것을 보았고, 드물게 예외적으로만 논란이 있다(이 경우 그가 아무런 참고자료도 추가하지 않은 경우에서처럼).우리 모두가 그의 실수에 주의를 기울이고 있다는 간단한 사실은, 그는 이제 다음번에는 필요한 예방책을 강구할 것이다.그건 내 개인적인 견해야.나는 전반적인 동기가 좋은 편집자의 신용을 떨어뜨릴 재간이 없다.다비드베나 (대화) 03:19, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- @Davidbena: - 이건 IZAK의 추가가 아니었다.IZAK가 주요
개선사항
이라고 말한 것은 다른 사람의 추가사항이었다.동기와 상관없이 극적인 판단의 오류는 파괴적일 수 있다. 스타쉽.페인트(토크) 03:40, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[- 스타쉽.페인트, 그리고 그것이 누군가 TBAN에 대한 이유인가?그는 누군가의 편집이 "주요 개선사항"이라고 말했는데 그렇지 않았다고?조셉(talk) 경은 14:45, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- @Davidbena: - 이건 IZAK의 추가가 아니었다.IZAK가 주요
- 그러니, 만약 그가 실수를 했다면, 그를 문책해라.그것이 그가 이 지역에서 편집하는 것을 전면적으로 금지하는 이유인가?누가 잘못을 저지르지 않는가?나는 IZAK의 다른 기여들 중 많은 것을 보았고, 드물게 예외적으로만 논란이 있다(이 경우 그가 아무런 참고자료도 추가하지 않은 경우에서처럼).우리 모두가 그의 실수에 주의를 기울이고 있다는 간단한 사실은, 그는 이제 다음번에는 필요한 예방책을 강구할 것이다.그건 내 개인적인 견해야.나는 전반적인 동기가 좋은 편집자의 신용을 떨어뜨릴 재간이 없다.다비드베나 (대화) 03:19, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- @ 기돈브와 다비드베나: - 이 세상에서
- 사용자:Starship.paint,미안하지만 이것들은 극히 약한 주장들이다.그는 약간 과장했을지 모르지만 이것은 사람들이 주장을 펴려고 할 때 극히 흔한 일이다.내 다음 진술은 잘 다루어진다. "그는 가끔 넋을 잃는다. 하지만 또 누가 그렇지 않느냐?"만약 이게 당신의 가장 강력한 방어책이라면, 당신은 어떤 행동도 제대로 된 것은 말할 것도 없고, 이것이 사건이 되어서는 안 된다는 내 요점을 확인하고 있는 겁니다.나는 항상 나 자신의 실수나 다른 사람들의 이런 것들에 열려있기 때문에 "만약"이라고 말한다.나는 더 강한 논쟁을 조사할 수 있어서 기쁘다.인시던트는 콘텐츠 개발과 개선에서 귀중한 자원을 빼앗아 최후의 수단으로 개방할 필요가 있다.나는 17년 동안 위키피디아를 개설한 적이 거의 없다.날 믿어, 사람들이 토론에서 나를 짜증나게 했어.드물게 12점대 응답에 아이작(IZAK)이 포함됐다.ANI는 사소한 문제에는 적합하지 않다.gidonb (대화) 03:45, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 아니, 그는 종종 일차적인 후원자야. 그리고 그것은 전통에 있는 텍스트로 가는 하나의 광범위한 범위를 허용하고 정통적인 사람으로서의 개인적인 관점을 뒷받침하기 위해 그것을 인용하는 것을 의미해.유대교의 많은 부분이 무엇이 이단인지에 대해 복잡한 내적 논쟁의 역사를 가지고 있는데 도대체 어떻게 정통 유대교에서 이단 이야기를 할 수 있겠는가.모세 하기즈를 비교해서 많은 것 중 하나, 또는 시오니즘이 이단적 요소를 가졌다는 1948년 이전의 표준적 정통관(현재 대부분의 정통관점에서 바뀌었다)의 이름을 대라.1차적 출처를 인용하거나 독립적인 판단을 선점하는 범주를 만들어 이와 같은 이슈를 정리할 수는 없다.니시다니 (토크) 12:41, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 더 강력한 주장이지만 그것이 우리를 콘텐츠 논쟁의 범주에서 꺼내지는 않는다.너는 어떤 출처의 전문가다.IZAK는 다른 사람들에게 있다.모두 관련이 있다.이 영역을 발전시키려면 너희들이 대화하고 협력해야 한다.아래에서는 출발을 하고 있다.좋은 발전이다. gidonb (토크) 11:50, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 내 생각은 달라.그것은 내용상의 논쟁이 아니다.위키백과 정책이 출처의 실제적 이용에서 어떻게 작용하는가에 대한 논쟁이다.내 경험상, 고대의 어떤 내용도 인용될 수 없다. 전문 2차 장학금이 그것에 대해 어떤 연구를 하는지, 누가 그것을 쓰든, 그들이 동료의 평가를 받는 것으로 충분하다는 맥락에서 말이다.내가 이것을 설명할 수 있는 유일한 방법은 이 분야에서 민감한 주제를 가지고 어떻게 일차적인 소스를 독립적으로 사용하지 않고 그것들을 검사하는 적격의 이차적인 소스만을 사용하여 철저하게 할 수 있는지를 보여주는 것이라고 추측한다.내가 보기에 사람은 일차적 원천을 숙달하여 심각한 오류를 범할 수 있다.학자들은 드물게 그렇게 하지 않으며, 또래들에 의해 정정된다.우리는 사람들이 쿠란이나 토마스 아퀴나스, 또는 마이모니데스를 읽고 나서 마치 백과사전처럼 직접 인용하는 것을 허락할 수 없다. 그러한 텍스트들이 주 텍스트의 읽기가 여러분에게 말해주지 않을 모호함이나 모순을 수정, 재구성 또는 주석으로 하는 단순한 이유 때문에 말이다.원리주의자가 창세기 1:1을 읽고 그것이 자동적으로 그것이 세상의 시작이었다는 것을 의미한다고 가정한다면, 그들은 자신도 모르게 추정을 부추기고 있는 것인데, 라시가 본문을 시공으로 분석한 것을 무지한 이는 절대적인 창조가 일찍이 시작되었음을 의미한다.그와 그를 따라온 중세 망명자들 둘 다 이 텍스트가 야기하는 어려움을 명확히 하기 위해 여전히 현대적인 비판적 장학금을 필요로 한다.만약 우리가 이 규칙을 지키지 않는다면, IZAK는 탈무딕 본문과 후기 논평의 의미에 대한 우리의 확실한 권위가 될 것이다. 그때 내가 많이 알고 있는 주제들의 Oracle 경으로 불쑥 끼어들 수 있는 것처럼 말이다.아니. 우리 둘 다, 동료가 검토한 장학금이 주장하는 것과 비교해서, 그리고, 종종 서로 다투고, 해석의 차이점을 기술하는 선택사항만 남겨놓는다(그러나 엑소더스에서는 그렇지 않다).니시다니(토크) 12시 18분, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 더 강력한 주장이지만 그것이 우리를 콘텐츠 논쟁의 범주에서 꺼내지는 않는다.너는 어떤 출처의 전문가다.IZAK는 다른 사람들에게 있다.모두 관련이 있다.이 영역을 발전시키려면 너희들이 대화하고 협력해야 한다.아래에서는 출발을 하고 있다.좋은 발전이다. gidonb (토크) 11:50, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 참고: @Starship.paint:@Guy Macon:@니시다니:당신은 1개의 WP 기사가 완전히 니힐로외에서 만들어지지 않고, 대개 증분적으로 작성되고, 먼저 편집자가 출처 없이 뭔가를 쓰고, 그 다음 두 번째 편집자가 WP:RS를 추가하고, 세 번째 편집자가 WP:WIKIY 적절한 기사가 나올 때까지 계속해서 기사 등을 분류한다.2 WP에 대한 나의 편집 기록은 훌륭하다. 단지 내가 작년에 카테고리에서 만든 몇 편의 훌륭한 기사를 볼 때.앙골라의 유대인 역사[41], 말라위의 유대인 역사[42], 에스와티니의 유대인 역사[43], 인간섬의 유대인 역사[44], 아르타흐의 유대인 역사[45] 등 유대인 역사[45], 그리고 여기에 인용하기에는 너무 많은 다른 역사들이 있다.하지만 이것은 나에 대한 어떤 잘못된 주장들을 잠재울 것이다.IZAK (대화) 12:55, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 친애하는 IZAK에게.나는 한 기사에서 기준점 하나를 확인했을 뿐인데, 당신이 사용한 출처는 파울로 디아스 드 노바이스에 관한 것인데, 그 중 역사가들은 그가 "유대인"이라고 말하고, 괄호 안에 WP를 추가했다.OR 광택 '(아마도 "Crypto-Jewish" 또는 어떤 종류의 Converso를 의미한다).일부 역사학자들은 데이비드 버밍엄이라는 한 역사학자로 밝혀졌다.예수회 선교에 동행하고, 앙골라 토착 왕족의 세례에 대부라고 알려진 포르투갈 궁정의 피날고가 암호-쥐라는 제안이 흥미로웠기 때문에, 나는 또한 아크릴토-쥐와 크리스탕-노보 사이에 만들어질 미세한 구분이 있어서 그것을 들여다보았다.포르투갈 위키비오를 확인해 봤는데, 이에 대한 언급은 없다.대서양 무역에 종사하는 많은 사람들은 '크립토-유대인'이거나 유대계 혈통을 실천하는 카톨릭 신자들이었는데, 이것은 중요한 구별이다.적어도 디아스 드 노바이스가 데리고 온 남자들 중 한 명은 '신 크리스천'(Duarte Lopez)이었는데, 증거가 없는 한 암호 쥬로 얼버무릴 수는 없었다.이 새로운 기독교인들은 당시 대서양 무역의 주요 상인들이었다. (Jared Staller , Cannibals에 수렴: 대서양 아프리카에서의 슬라빙의 테러, 1509–1670, 오하이오 대학 출판부 2019 페이지 60).그래서 나는 린다 M의 한 장을 읽었다.헤이우드의 앙골라(HUP) 2017년 은진가, 그곳에서도 그에 대한 언급은 없다.그녀는 그에게 그의 군사적 승리를 '성모 마리아 복음'으로 믿게 했고, 예수회 사제들과 먼저 상의하지 않고는 그가 한 일은 아무것도 없었다고 말한다.그의 모든 선거 운동과 그의 군대들, 그리고 아프리카인들은 일반적인 카톨릭의 강렬함으로 가득 차 있었다.
- 이것은 단지 물건을 얻기 위해 유대인+나라를 구글로 검색하는 것이 비현실적이라는 것을 보여주기 위한 것이다.그 기사들을 써줘서 기쁘지만, 사용된 방법은 각 기준점의 일반적인 복수 소스 제어로 쉽게 피할 수 있었던 많은 문제를 남겨두고 있다.밖에 있는 사람들은 이 괴팍한 다리를 우리가 할 것이라고 믿는다.나는 네가 이것을 사용하여 오류를 시정할 수 있기를 바란다.니시다니 (토크) 14:48, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 니시다니, 평소처럼 철저한 피드백에 감사한다.당신이 필요하다고 느끼는 개선이 필요하다고 생각되는 것을 자유롭게 만드세요.내 요점은 내가 일차적인 출처에만 "결혼"하지 않는다는 것을 보여주는 것이었다.읽을 수 있는 좋은 내용으로 새로운 기사를 쓰는 것은 정말 대단한 일이다. 나는 항상 다른 편집자들의 협조와 입력을 환영한다.IZAK (대화) 15:56, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 고마워. 내가 관련 토크 페이지에 메모를 버려서 다른 사람이 쓸 수 있게 할게.나는 지금 오프라인에서 너무 바빠서 많은 것을 할 수 없다.내 성격을 알고 그 기사를 건드리면 아마 이틀 동안 위에서 아래로 훑어봐야 한다는 의무감을 느끼게 될 것이다.니시다니 (토크) 16:04, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- Cullen 등에 의한 주제 금지를 지지한다.너무 많은 비누복싱과 문제있는 소싱은 신화에 신경쓰지 마라.드레이미스 (대화) 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC) 15:00[
- 주제 금지에 반대하여 유대교에서 헤리시 범주를 대신 삭제하십시오.문제는 해결됐습니다.스메트75 (대화) 16:16, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 지원 주제 금지.나는 지금까지 정말 궁지에 몰렸다. 그러나 WP의 순전한 양은 다음과 같다.BLUZON이 여기서 진행되는 것은 IZAK의 다른 누구의 말도 듣지 않는 것과 그의 WP: EXPERT 견해만이 합리적이라는 주장과 결합되어 나는 상황을 개선하는 것을 금지하는 주제 외에는 아무것도 볼 수 없다는 것을 의미한다.나는 범주의 존재 자체에 대해, 특히 정교 유대교가 그들의 신앙 안에서 이단적이라고 여기는 주제에 관한 페이지에서는 아무런 문제가 없다.그러나 경쟁 종파의 페이지에 '이단' 범주를 붙여도 괜찮다는 생각은 형편없는 생각이다.WP 때문에 괜찮다고 주장하는 것:감식당하지 않은 사람은 당황스럽다.그리고 CFD가 해결책이라고 주장하는 것은 미친 듯이 빗나가고 있다.— 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 16:38, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
두 가지 이유로 "유대주의 이단"을 금지하는 주제를 좁게 정의했다.(문제처럼 보이지만 주제 금지 수준에는 해당되지 않을 수 있음).첫째, 비종교적인 유대인을 이단자로 분류하는 것은 정말로 문제가 있다[46].둘째로, 이것은 위의 댓글 수에 근거한 정말 큰 혼란이다.그것에 대해 뭔가 조치를 취해야 한다.그러나 유대교에서 헤리시라는 범주를 갖는 것은 괜찮다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 17:10, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 강한 반대 IZAK의 노력은 항상 신뢰할 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처에 의해 묘사되는 실체를 유대교의 헤레시 또는 정교 유대교의 헤레시라고 묘사하는 것이었다.물론 아무도 이단자로 낙인찍히는 것을 좋아하지 않지만, 이단자로 간주되는 실체가 있다는 사실은 부인할 수 없다.만약 그 이슈가 그 범주에서 그것을 다루고 있다면.기업이 신뢰할 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처의 지원을 받아 이단으로 분류되지 않은 것이 문제라면, 기사 테이크 페이지에서 논의하십시오.그러나 이 주제 금지는 IZAK를 부적절하게 검열하기 위한 것이다.그 사실들은 단순히 주제 금지를 정당화하지 못한다.앨런슨 (대화) 18:40, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 아니, 그것들은 유대교의 헤레시 또는 정교회의 헤레시라고 믿을 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처에 의해 설명되지 않는다.그게 문제야.당신은 정말로 문화유대주의가 이 확산/편집에서 시사하는 것처럼 이단적이라고 믿는가?그러한 주장을 뒷받침할 만한 RS가 있는가?페이지에는 아무것도 없다.(이 실의 맨 위에 있는) 기여자에 의한 다른 무수히 유사한 편집도 역시 이와 같았다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 01:57, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 나의 가장 큰 축원, 너는 내가 한 요점을 완전히 놓치고 동시에 나를 위해 그것을 만들어 준다.위에서 말한 바와 같이, 「..이단으로 간주되는 실체가 있다는 사실은 부인할 수 없다.만약 그 이슈가 그 범주에서 그것을 다루고 있다면.만약 기업들이 신뢰할 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처의 지원을 받아 이단으로 분류되지 않은 것이 문제라면, 기사 테이크 페이지에서 논의하십시오."유대교 및/또는 정통 유대교에 의해 이단으로 간주되는 *ARE* 실체들이 있다.당신을 만족시킬 수 있는 믿을 수 있고 검증 가능한 소싱 없이 카테고리를 배치한 기사가 있다면, 그것을 토론할 장소는 기사의 토크 페이지에 있다.앨런슨 (대화) 17:42, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 그렇다, 어쩌면 주제 금지는 너무 가혹하다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 17:55, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 개별 사안에 대해 이용할 수 있는 다른 장소도 있지만, 이곳은 특정 주제 영역 내의 파괴적 행동과 WP와 같은 가능한 해결책에 대해 논의할 수 있는 적절한 장소:TBAN. --GoneIn60 (대화) 18:33, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나의 가장 큰 축원, 너는 내가 한 요점을 완전히 놓치고 동시에 나를 위해 그것을 만들어 준다.위에서 말한 바와 같이, 「..이단으로 간주되는 실체가 있다는 사실은 부인할 수 없다.만약 그 이슈가 그 범주에서 그것을 다루고 있다면.만약 기업들이 신뢰할 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처의 지원을 받아 이단으로 분류되지 않은 것이 문제라면, 기사 테이크 페이지에서 논의하십시오."유대교 및/또는 정통 유대교에 의해 이단으로 간주되는 *ARE* 실체들이 있다.당신을 만족시킬 수 있는 믿을 수 있고 검증 가능한 소싱 없이 카테고리를 배치한 기사가 있다면, 그것을 토론할 장소는 기사의 토크 페이지에 있다.앨런슨 (대화) 17:42, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 아니, 그것들은 유대교의 헤레시 또는 정교회의 헤레시라고 믿을 수 있고 검증 가능한 출처에 의해 설명되지 않는다.그게 문제야.당신은 정말로 문화유대주의가 이 확산/편집에서 시사하는 것처럼 이단적이라고 믿는가?그러한 주장을 뒷받침할 만한 RS가 있는가?페이지에는 아무것도 없다.(이 실의 맨 위에 있는) 기여자에 의한 다른 무수히 유사한 편집도 역시 이와 같았다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 01:57, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 강한 반대다.만약 또 다른 유대교 종파가 정교 유대교에 의해 이단으로 간주된다면, 그것은 "정교 유대교에 의한 이단" 또는 일부 그러한 언어에 대한 범주에 놓여야 한다.기독교는 분명히 그런 범주에 들어가서는 안 된다.그것은 별개의 종교다.그러나 유대교와 관련되고 정통 유대교에 의해 이단으로 간주되는 주제에 관한 기사들은 그러한 범주에 넣어야 한다.이것은 전적으로 적절하다.누구도 기분 나빠해서는 안 된다.이것은 정보 제공이다.카테고리 트리를 더 생산적으로 탐색할 수 있다.그리고 위키피디아는 검열되지 않았다.버스정류장 (대화) 22:04, 2020년 6월 16일 (UTC)[
- 다음 내용(사용자 대화:IZAK#정책 제안)은 좀 미친 짓이다.그는 진지하게 WP를 제안하고 있다.기사의 세속적/주요적 출처보다 그의 개인적 종교적 신념에 우선/선호를 주는 정책 변화.헤이로 02:51, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- "내성적인"게 아니라, 하이로니모스 로에.위키피디아는 또한 문화적 주제를 다룰 수 있다.나는 종교를 문화적인 주제로 생각하고 있어.우리는 예술에 관심이 없는 사람이 와서 "그건 자두 한 그릇이 아니라 그냥 페인트일 뿐"이라고 주장하는 것을 원하지 않을 것이다.버스정류장 (대화) 03:13, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
임의 섹션 구분 2
- Cullen, Warshy, Hand ThatFeeds 등의 지원 항목에서 "유대교의 이단" 및 "정교 유대교의 이단"과 관련하여 금지한다.곰곰이 생각해 본 결과, 이것이 올바른 조치라고 믿는다.IZAK에 의한 국내외의 논평은, 특히 최근 시점에서, 끊임없이 투쟁적이고 모욕적이다.여기 샘플이 있다.
- 유대교 거룩한 날의 히브리 이름에 관한 최근의 CFD
- 정중한 편집자의 우려에 대해, 부당한 거들먹거림이 있었다.
- "
초상적인 나의 사랑하는 왓슨..
.
"
- 유목민에 대한 선의의 극한 부족:
- "
그러니 유목민들은 유대인의 명절이라는 히브리인의 이름에 대해 무엇을 가지고 있는가?
!"
— "와!
이제 당신의 제안이 물거품이 되고 있으니, 당신은 WP 정책을 그들의 머리 위에 뒤집어 놓고 당신이 화가 났기 때문에 당신의 뜻대로 하고 싶은 것이다!
가엾어라!"
- 전투적 논평(Laurel Lodged's!bote):
- "
농담하는 거지?!",
"...당신이 그렇게
생각하는것
보다 우월주의적인 건아니잖아."
—"...WP의 영국식 진고이즘은 너무
심하다.
그러니 우리에게 휴식을 줘.
.
"
- 전시된 전투력 향상(Carlossuarez46의 !투표):
- "
그래서 무슨 일인데?"
- WP:정교 유대교의 삭제/이단
- 단순히 방해하고 요구하지 않는 것:
- "
저자는 거대한 주류인 헤레디와 정교회 운동을 소외시킴으로써 자신이
왜이런 일
을 하고있는지를 WP를 근거로 설명할 반헤레디와 심지어
반정서적편견까지 드러낸다.
아이돈트라이크잇
(IDONTLICELICHIT)말고는
- WP 호출 중:기타 및 WP:주장을 반박하는 ALLORNNOTY 원칙:
- "
그의 말에 따르더라도 진정한 차이가 있다면, 확실히 다른 종류의 기사가 있어야
한다.
지명자가 철거
를 희망하고 있다."
- 물론 이들 중 일부는 상당히 온화하고 이단적인 대화 밖에 존재하지만, 전체적으로 볼 때, 발전하는 패턴은 관심을 가지며 빠르게 가식적이고 미개한 영역으로 이어진다.그들은 의심하지 않는 편집자들을 기습적으로 붙잡아 즉시 수세에 몰아넣고 있다.이것들은 단지 최근의 예들에 불과하다는 것을 알아두는 것이 중요하다.멀리 돌아볼수록 마주치는 횟수가 줄어들고 IZAK는 다른 사람들과 잘 소통했다.좁은 금지는 경종을 울리는 역할을 할 것이다. 이 길을 더 나아가는 것이 그들에게는 최선책이 아니라는 것이다.나는 원래 이것을 단순한 내용 논쟁 이상의 것으로 보기 힘들었지만, 이 페이지와 이 예들에서 보이는 행동은 다르게 보여준다.공격적인 무릎 떨림 반응과 텍스트 벽은 협업 환경에 도움이 되지 않는다.무언가 바뀌지 않는 한, 귀중한 공동체 시간과 자원의 유출은 증가할 것 같다.마지막으로, 내가 위에서 연결한 CFD에서 발생한 라이트 탐방은 용납될 수 없으며, "고려한 편집자"라는 핑계로 비껴갈 수 없다.중립적인 장소에서 중립적인 통지가 앞으로 나아갈 길이 되어야 하며, 그러한 투표집적 행태가 계속된다면 그에 따라 대처해야 한다.그리고 얼버무리기를 좋아하지만 종종 더 작은 장소에서 레이더 아래를 날아다닌 편집자들에게 지금이 참기에 좋은 시간이 될 것이다.충분히 봤다. --GoneIn60 (대화) 08:22, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 많은 사람들이 불안해 하는 것 같다.어쩔 수 없어요.내게 지뢰밭을 주면 내가 그쪽으로 걸어갈게, 결과가 어떻든.IZAK는 종교적 근본주의자다.둘째로, 그는 이러한 문제들에 대한 적절한 장학금, 즉 좀 더 진실한 것이 (ethno)라고 확신하는 것 같다.성서와 탈무드의 주요 출처에 대한 유대인의 분석.
- (a) 그는 자신과 의견이 다른 다수의 편집자들이 '성서적, 심지어 유대적인 어떤 것에도 반대할 도끼가 있을 뿐'이라고 암시했다.
- (b)그는 자신이 소수자 위치에 있다는 것을 발견했을 때 유대인 편집자들을 설득하여 균형을 맞추기 위해 노력했다.Atsme은 단지 틀렸다 (여기서, 이슈에 '이스라엘'을 추가하는 것에 대한 esp)
- (c) 그가 '세속적인 성서 비평 편집자들에게 머리를 날리는 것을 꺼리는 것은 두려움이요, 나는 그들을 그들의 표지에서 끌어내리고 그들이 마치 "Wi"인 것처럼 WP에서 공포 속에 살 필요가 없다는 그의 견해에 따라, 그가 유세한 이후 유대인에 대한 편견의 하위 텍스트가 존재한다고 믿는다는 것을 확인한다.키페디아 마라노스."
- 즉, 이것을 파악하지 못하는 사람들을 위한 것이다.국내 세속주의자들의 유행이 엄청난 유대인 학문을 가진 사람들을 놀라게 했다.그들은 기독교가 패권적이었던 과거 유대인들이 그랬던 것처럼 위협적인 다수의 세속적 문화인 위키백과 내의 일종의 암호-유( crypt)로서 두려움에 몸을 숨길 수밖에 없다.그것은 몇 명의 편집자에게 적용되는 훨씬 더 강력한 반유대적 암시다.
- (d) 분위기를 '냉전'에 지배적인 분위기에 비유한다.
- (e) 그는 세속적 학문의 모든 방법론이 예시바에서 표준이라고 믿는다.즉, 그가 불편해 하는 바로 그 세속적인 장학금과 그의 개인적 신념을 밑받침하는 탈무드적 예시바 연구 사이에는 차이가 없다.(마드라사 장학금과 CHTRY의 이슬람학 교수진에서 하는 일에는 차이가 없다) 그의 성당에서 르우벤 파이어스톤이 조사한 예시바스의 우두머리들에게 그렇게 말해준다.유대교에서 r: 논쟁적인 아이디어의 몰락과 부상, 옥스포드 대학 출판부 2012 ISBN978-0-199-97715-4 또는 '윤리학자들'에 대한 우리 벤-엘리에저의 논문과 그의 평화와의 전쟁에서 모더니즘 학문의 핵심 원칙에 대한 그들의 단호한 거절: 이스라엘의 군국주의적 민족주의 백년, University of California Press 2019 ISBN978-0-520-97305-3).그것은 어리둥절할 정도로 모순된 것으로, 암묵적인 민족적 전제를 가지고 있어야만 이해할 수 있다: 방법은 같지만, 더 나은 형태의 지식의 실천자들은 더 신뢰할 수 있는 퀘아 유대인과 신봉자들이다.
- (f) 세속적인 장학금이 종교적인 유대인 장학금의 진정한 결과에 위협이 된다는 그의 주장에도 불구하고, 그는 두 사람이 화해할 수 있다고 제안함으로써 자신과 모순된다.즉, 위키피디아가 세속적인 장학금보다 탈무드적 관점을 우선시해야 하는 절충안을 마련하기 위해 기사는 전자를 보여주고, 그 다음에 세속적인 장학금이 뭐라고 말하든 추가해야 한다.이렇게 해서 우리는 토라 장학금과 세속적인 장학금이라는 두 가지를 화해하게 된다.즉, 천주교나 이슬람교를 다룬 어떤 기사에 대해서도 신학파나 마드라사의 졸업자들은 각자의 신앙에 대한 공식적인 견해를 개략적으로 설명해야 하며, 그 다음에 세속적인 나신과 청년들은 불쑥 들어와 각주를 덧붙일 수 있다.POV 연습의 하위 텍스트: WP:TLDR은 이러한 디지털 시간대에 작동하여 대부분의 사람들이 리드 페라스와 오프닝 페라스를 읽는다.
- (g) 17년이 지난 후에도 IZAK는 WP:RS는 소싱의 품질과 선호되는 최적의 참조 유형에 대해 설명한다.이런 뉘앙스에도 불구하고 우리는 학문적 전문가들로부터 고품질의 이차적 원천을 이용하기 위해 노력해야 하며, 일차적 원천을 인용할 때 극도로 주의를 기울여야 한다.
- 문제는 명백하며, 만약 IZAK가 그의 토크 페이지에서 제안하는 대로 이것이 해결된다면, 그리고 만약 IZAK 자신이 고대 또는 종교적인 문헌에서 나온 주요 출처들이 (매우 풍부하고 이익이 아니라) 신뢰할 수 있는 학문적 출처를 통해서만 인용되어서는 안 된다는 것을 계속해서 이해하지 못한다면, 더 큰 파장을 초래하게 된다.니시다니 (토크) 10:54, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 많은 사람들이 불안해 하는 것 같다.어쩔 수 없어요.내게 지뢰밭을 주면 내가 그쪽으로 걸어갈게, 결과가 어떻든.IZAK는 종교적 근본주의자다.둘째로, 그는 이러한 문제들에 대한 적절한 장학금, 즉 좀 더 진실한 것이 (ethno)라고 확신하는 것 같다.성서와 탈무드의 주요 출처에 대한 유대인의 분석.
- 지지 이 토론이 있는 만큼 '우왕좌왕'했고, 그렇게 많은 불손한 사람들이 토론에 슬그머니 끼어든 것은 유감스러운 일이다.내가 이해한 바와 같이, 편집자는 종교의 한 '진정한' 지부에 따르면, 대다수의 출처가 '이단'을 이렇게 라벨을 붙인 종파의 결정적인 특징으로 간주하는지 여부에 관계없이 무엇이 이단적인지 정의하기 위해 일차 출처를 사용할 권리를 주장하고 있다.이단적인 지위는 진정한 신봉자에게 명백하기 때문에 소싱은 겉보기에는 필요조차 없어 보인다.아무도 그것이 특징적인지, 종교의 한 지부가 다른 지부와 왜 동의하지 않는지 또는 관계의 역사인지에 상관없이 개별 기사에 텍스트가 있는 것에 대해 이의를 제기하는 사람은 없지만, 이것은 하나의 해석에 대한 프라이머리를 주장하고 다른 지문이 다른 지문을 삽입할 권리를 주장하는 것이다.어떤 경우에도 거짓이 있는편집자가 문제를 보지 않고, 단지 강조할 뿐이다.이것은 검열이 아니라, 우리는 아이디어를 '의사 과학'이라고 너무 쉽게 IMO에 라벨을 붙이거나 분류하지만, 실제로 모든 유능한 권위자들이 이것을 분명히 말할 때에만 그렇게 한다 - 우리는 "거물들이 사이비 과학으로 여기는 것들"을 가지고 있지 않고, 심지어 개인적인 확신에 근거한다.거의 모든 논평자들이 "유대주의에 의한 이단"이라고 특징지을 소수의 신념/그룹들이 있을 수 있지만, 종교에 대한 주요한, 다른 해석을 이단으로, 주로 개인적 평가에 의존하는 것은 상당히 엄청난 오만 IMO의 행동이며 WP의 본질적 중립성에 대한 경시심을 보여준다.핀크리트 (토크) 17:20, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC) ps 나는 지금 누가 스피노자를 이단자로 간주할지 매우 의심스럽다 - 종교의 교리를 비판/포기하는 것은 그 종교에 대한 새로운 해석을 만드는 것과 매우 다르다. 리처드 도킨스는 이단자가 아니야!
- 편집자는 종교의 한 '진정한' 지부에 따르면 무엇이 이단적이고 무엇이 이단적이지 않은지를 규정하기 위해 주요 소스를 사용할 권리를 주장하는 것을 더 많이 하고 있다.그는 또한 자신의 종교의 한 '진정한' 지부가 역사학자 및 고고학자와 의견이 다를 때 실제로 어떤 일이 일어났는지를 규정하기 위해 일차적 출처를 사용할 권리를 주장하고 있다.'스트레이징'이라고 생각할 수도 있겠지만, 만약 최종 행정관이 다른 종교 이단만을 부르는 것을 다룬다면, 우리는 다음 달에 바로 이곳으로 돌아와 이집트의 맏아들을 죽이는 홍해의 이별이나 죽음의 천사가 잘 문서화된 역사적 사실이라고 위키피디아가 말해야 하는지에 대해 논의할 것이라고 장담한다. --구이 마con (talk) 20:59, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 내가 여기서 기본적인 이슈 중 하나로 보는 것을 특징짓지 못하고 있다, 가이 마콘: 다른 종파들은 "이단"이라는 개념을 사용하지 않는다.오직 정교 유대교만이 "이단"의 개념을 유지한다.예를 들어, 재건주의 유대교, 보수주의 유대교, 개혁 유대교-는 "이단"이라는 개념을 사용하지 않는다.이곳의 많은 사람들은 정통 유대교가 이 혐의를 휘두른 것에 대해 불쾌해 할지도 모른다.그러나 그 혐의를 휘두르는 것은 양날의 칼일 수 있다. 그들은 구식 개념을 사용했다는 비난을 받을 가능성이 있다.여기서 기본적인 쟁점들 중 하나는 정교 유대교가 유대교의 한 종파를 "이단"으로 간주하는지 여부에 따라 우리가 분류해야 하는지에 관한 것이다.나는 그 문제에 대해 내 주장을 밝혔다.이 곳에서는 수많은 다른 문제들이 제기되어 왔다.하지만 나는 이것이 기본이라고 생각한다.그리고 그나저나 컬렌328은 여기서 영향력을 행사해 왔으며, 그들은 "
보수주의, 개혁주의
,재건주의
유대교가위키피디아의 암묵적인 승인 도장을 가지고 공식적으로 이단으로 분류
될 때,그것은 매우 문제적이다"
라고 썼다.그 진술을 인용하는 나의 요점은 이 논의에서 핵심 쟁점이 무엇인지 보여주는 것이다.버스정류장 (토크) 02:07, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[- 내가 이단에 대해 충분히 얘기하지 않았다면 용서해줘.나는 그것이 완전히 받아들일 수 없고 거칠게 다루어져야 한다는 것에 동의한다.마무리 관리자는 다시는 이런 일이 일어나지 않도록 무슨 일이든 해야 한다.나는 심지어 그것이 가장 중요한 문제라는 것에 동의할 것이다.그러나 "이 한 가지를 고치면 문제가 사라질 것"에서와 같이 "핵심 문제"인가?난 그걸 안살래요.출애굽기 공연에서 그를 차단한 그의 행동과 그 관점을 어떻게 조화시킬 것인가?그것은 다른 종교단체를 이단자라고 부르는 것과는 아무 상관이 없었다.
- 내가 다시 말하지만 만약 최종 행정관이 다른 종교 이단에게 전화하는 것만 다룬다면, 우리는 바로 다음 달에 이집트의 맏아들을 죽이는 홍해의 이별이나 죽음의 천사가 잘 문서화된 역사적 사실이라고 위키피디아가 말해야 하는지에 대해 토론할 것이다.왜냐하면 IZAK는 누가 반대하더라도 여러 개의 위키백과 기사를 싣겠다고 상당히 공언해 왔기 때문이다.---Guy Macon (토크) 02:29, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 내가 여기서 기본적인 이슈 중 하나로 보는 것을 특징짓지 못하고 있다, 가이 마콘: 다른 종파들은 "이단"이라는 개념을 사용하지 않는다.오직 정교 유대교만이 "이단"의 개념을 유지한다.예를 들어, 재건주의 유대교, 보수주의 유대교, 개혁 유대교-는 "이단"이라는 개념을 사용하지 않는다.이곳의 많은 사람들은 정통 유대교가 이 혐의를 휘두른 것에 대해 불쾌해 할지도 모른다.그러나 그 혐의를 휘두르는 것은 양날의 칼일 수 있다. 그들은 구식 개념을 사용했다는 비난을 받을 가능성이 있다.여기서 기본적인 쟁점들 중 하나는 정교 유대교가 유대교의 한 종파를 "이단"으로 간주하는지 여부에 따라 우리가 분류해야 하는지에 관한 것이다.나는 그 문제에 대해 내 주장을 밝혔다.이 곳에서는 수많은 다른 문제들이 제기되어 왔다.하지만 나는 이것이 기본이라고 생각한다.그리고 그나저나 컬렌328은 여기서 영향력을 행사해 왔으며, 그들은 "
- Cullen과 다른 사람들은 모두 좋은 지적을 한다.이번 ANI에서 IZAK의 행동은 나에게 자신감을 심어주지 않는다.PlatypusofDoom (대화) 21:53, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 뭔가 조치를 취해야 한다, 최소한 주제 금지는 이 긴 토론 중에 일어난 일이다. 1.아이작(IZAK)은 a)신학과 가학#종교적 유사학 및 b) 역사학, 고고학, 언어학과의 차이를 실제로 얻지 못한다는 것을 보여주었는데, 이는 그가 중립적으로 편집할 수 없다는 것을 의미하며, 3. 오랫동안 활동하지 않았던 세 명의 편집자가 갑자기 나타나 아이작의 주제 금지에 반대 목소리를 냈다.Robby.is.on (대화) 14:52, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 모든 좋은 점.비활동인구가 갑자기 활동하게 된 것에 대한 가능한 설명은 IZAK의 토크 페이지가 감시 목록에 있다는 것인데, 이들은 최근 들어 많은 활동을 보아왔고, 그들을 이곳으로 이끌 수도 있었을 것이다.그러나, 그것은 반대파의 상당 부분이 과거 관계를 가진 편집자들로부터 온 것이라는 사실에 주의를 환기시킨다. --GoneIn60 (대화) 18:00, 2020년 6월 18 (UTC)[
- 지원 주제 금지 – 이번 ANI 토론에서만, IZAK는 유대교 신학을 유대교 신학과 크게 혼동했고, 다른 편집자들이 제기한 POV에 대한 타당한 우려를 불식시키기 위한 클럽으로서 정교 유다주의에 대한 그의 개인적인 전문지식을 휘두르려고 반복적으로 시도했으며, 반유대적 박해의 망령을 발동시켜 다른 사람들의 c를 묘사했다.악습으로 인한 공격헤레시 카테고리 사용에 대한 분쟁의 동기는 콘텐츠 논쟁이었지만, IZAK의 ANI와 다른 토크 페이지들 모두 언급은 우려되는 것이며 그렇게 사소한 것으로 일축될 수는 없다.signed, 로스길 02:36, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
설명
나는 IZAK가 유죄라고 생각하지 않는다.문제는 일부 유대교 신자들이 자신들의 POV에서 기사를 개발했다는 점이다.이것들은 틈새기사의 일종이고, 나머지 지역사회는 그들의 행동을 문제시하기 위해 그러한 기사들에 대해 별로 신경쓰지 않았다.문제는 우리가 이러한 관행을 세계의 다른 종교에 적용하면 명백해진다: 우리는 여기 위키피디아에서 근본주의자들이 세속적인 장학금을 넘겨받는 것을 원치 않으며, 종종 다양한 종류의 근본주의자들은 서로의 배짱을 싫어한다.그래서 만일 다른 모든 종교들이 수년 동안 정통 유대인 편집자들이 이미 누려온 특권을 주장한다면 혼란이 뒤따를 것이다.도덕은 이 문제가 한 명의 편집자보다 더 크고, 그를 특정 기사에서 제외시키는 것은 우리의 문제를 해결하지 못할 것이라는 것이다.문제는 예시바 학습을 WP로 렌더링하는 것이다.인 유니버스. 유감스럽게도 누군가가 그에게 그렇게 해서는 안 된다고 말하는 것은 이번이 처음이다.지금까지 그가 알고 있는 한, 그는 그것이 허용된다고 생각했다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 03:31, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 세심하게 조작된 주제 금지로 IZAK가 문제의 일부가 되는 것을 막을 수는 있지만, 당신은 훌륭한 주장을 한다.그렇다면 해결책은 무엇일까?그 사람 문제에 대해 얘기하려면 어디로 가야 하지?NPOV 게시판, 아마도? --Guy Macon (대화) 03:42, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나도 몰라.IMHO는 왜 그들의 주장이 많은지 이해하기 위해 예시바에서 배워야 한다.그래서 나머지 지역사회가 신경을 쓰지 않는 것이다.지하드에 대해 글을 쓴다면 많은 사람들이 관심을 갖는다.그러나 정통 유대교 신학의 불가사의한 문제에 글을 쓴다면, 그것을 문제 삼을 사람은 거의 없다.AFAIK, IZAK와 그의 동료들은 자유주의 유대인들을 상대로 캠페인을 벌인다.그들은 자유주의 유대인들을 그들의 적으로 본다.그들은 이슬람교도나 힌두교도들을 신경 쓰지 않고, 유태인들을 다르게 생각하는 것에 신경을 쓴다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 04:05, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 그냥 두고 갈 것 같아:[48][49] --Guy Macon (대화) 04:18, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 결국, 우리는 정통파 대 진보파 셰나니건들이 역사적 사실을 가지고 빠르고 느슨하게 놀려는 의도가 아니었다면 신경쓰지 않을 것이다.내 말은, 그건 은폐된 것도 아닌데 IZAK가 자랑스러워 하는 것 같아.그는 정확히 우리가 사실을 가지고 빠르고 느슨하게 노는 것을 좋아하지 않는다는 것을 알기 때문에 Marrano처럼 느낀다.주류 역사학자들은 그의 POV를 거부했고, 위키피디아는 당연히 주류 역사학자 편을 들었다.IZAK는 주류 역사를 악마적 망상과 아마도 반유대주의(성경과 유대교에 관한 한)와 동일시한다.그가 그의 POV를 밀고 나가는 것을 허용하면 Phyoghistory#종교적 유사성 이론의 수문을 열게 될 것이다.우리는 신학자로서 유대 현인들의 오랜 역사를 존중하지만, 현대 주류 역사학자들에게는 결코 그들을 넘겨주려 하지 않는다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 13:00, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- "그 논평과 츠조르쥬쿠의 관찰에 따르면 주제 금지만으로 해결될 수 없는 훨씬 더 깊은 문제가 분명히 있다.그렇다, 주제 금지가 필요하지만, 그것은 해결책의 아주 작은 부분에 불과하다.우리는 Arbcom에서 이 주제에 관련된 모든 편집자들의 행동을 자세히 살펴볼 수 있다.일반 제재도 통과시킬 수 있을 겁니다.잠복 그림자 (대화) 13:23, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 특히 IZAK가 User talk를 진행한다면 뭔가 더 많은 조치를 취해야 할 것이 꽤 확실해 보인다.IZAK#정책 제안.인용하자면:
무신론 기반 또는 회의론 기반 POV와 종교 기반 POV의 균형을 맞추는 것은 때때로 WP 기사에서 피할 수 없다.
유대인과 유대교는 주요 아브라함 종교의 창시자임에도 수적으로 불리하다.
정통 유대교는 오늘날 소수의 유대인에 의해 행해지고 있는데, 랍비닉 유대교의 계승자로서 그들은 토라의 고전적인 가르침을 지지한다.
랍비스는 지난 2500년 동안 유대교와 유대인의 스승, 지도자, 권위자, 법률학자, 저술가였다(이전에는 이스라엘과 유다의 예언자와 왕이었다). 고대로부터 현재에 이르기까지 그들의 관점이 중요하다.
대부분의 카테고리:
문서 가설 및 범주:
성서 비평은 카테고리(Category)와 화해할 수 없다.
히브리어 성경 및 범주:
유대교, 특히 범주:
정통 유대교의 견해, 신념
,관행은 WP 기사에서 별개의 관점으로 명확히 구분되어야 한다
.
- 그는 기본적으로 정통 유대인들이 가장 정통한 유대인들이며 그 이유만으로 그들은 특별한 대우를 받아야 한다고 말하고 있다.그러나 그는 신학과 역사학, 고고학, 언어학이 같지 않다는 것을 이해하지 못하는 것 같다.랍비들은 신학자들로, 고대 근동 지역에서 어떤 일이 일어났는지, 일어나지 않았는지에 대한 전문지식이 없다.그러나 그가 토론에서 말한 것처럼 다음과 같다.
나는 이것이 모든 현대 대학에서 가르치는 것이 아니라는 것을 알고 있다. 그러나 성경은 수천 년 동안 대학보다 앞서 있었다.
그에게 이것은 완전히 논리적인 진술이다.--에르멘리히 (대화) 14:13, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[ 하라 - 그냥 기술 쪽지야.'라브비스는 지난 2500년 동안 유대교와 유대인의 스승, 지도자, 권위, 법률학자, 저술가였다'고 주장하면서 IZAK는 그가 현대 장학금에 전혀 익숙하지 않다는 것을 보여준다.Rabbinic 권위는 상당히 늦게 왔는데, 확실히 처음 주어진 날짜로부터 수 세기 후에 왔다.유대학을 가르치는 사람은 누구나 그것을 알고 있다.니시다니 (토크) 15:35, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 단지 당신의 "기술 노트"에 대항하기 위해서 랍비의 개념은 사실 유대교에서 가장 위대한 예언자일 뿐만 아니라 가장 위대한 스승이기도 하기 때문에 랍비의 개념은 모셰 랍비누(좋은 이유로 모세에게 재연결)로부터 시작된다고 말하는 것이 가능한데, 그것은 랍비라는 말이 의미하는 "선생님"이기 때문에 모든 성서 지도자들은 사실 프로토였다.교사와 랍비들을 대중에게 타이핑하다그러나 진정한 랍비니치 통치의 시대는 제1사원의 파괴와 구법의 초기 뿌리와 발흥으로부터 시작된다.IZAK (토크) 02:50, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 늦어서 미안해.나는 이것을 놓쳤다.파세 비트겐슈타인(Wovon man nicht sprerchen kann, darüber mu man man schweigen)은 모든 것을 말할 수 있는데, 심지어 메리의 아들이 히로히토 천황처럼 신이었다고도 할 수 있다.그래서 모세는 자신의 존재에 기인하는 날짜 1,400년 전에 '랍비'라고 부를 수 있다.그러나 랍비라는 말은 그 인물에 관해서는 말할 것도 없고 타나크 지방에서는 아무 일도 일어나지 않으며, 제2신전 몰락 전 수십 년 동안 당신이 가리키는 뜻에서 유행을 증명하기 시작할 뿐이다(사실 그 변화의 가장 초기 목격자 중 하나는 마태복음이다).자세한 내용은 놀라운 백과사전 Judaica 2차 제17권 2007 페이지 11-19를 참조하십시오.편집 시 항상 팔꿈치에 대고 있어야 한다.그 지칠 줄 모르는 심오한 학문의 창고를 읽으면 최근 당신이 겪었던 많은 문제들이 피할 수 있을 것이다.니시다니 (토크) 17:12, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 단지 당신의 "기술 노트"에 대항하기 위해서 랍비의 개념은 사실 유대교에서 가장 위대한 예언자일 뿐만 아니라 가장 위대한 스승이기도 하기 때문에 랍비의 개념은 모셰 랍비누(좋은 이유로 모세에게 재연결)로부터 시작된다고 말하는 것이 가능한데, 그것은 랍비라는 말이 의미하는 "선생님"이기 때문에 모든 성서 지도자들은 사실 프로토였다.교사와 랍비들을 대중에게 타이핑하다그러나 진정한 랍비니치 통치의 시대는 제1사원의 파괴와 구법의 초기 뿌리와 발흥으로부터 시작된다.IZAK (토크) 02:50, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 특히 IZAK가 User talk를 진행한다면 뭔가 더 많은 조치를 취해야 할 것이 꽤 확실해 보인다.IZAK#정책 제안.인용하자면:
- IZAK의 대응
위의 관찰 중 일부는 부분적으로만 정확할 뿐, 특히 WP에 중요한 내용이 달라붙는 경우, 동기, 생각, 아이디어, 개념, 개념이 유래한 휴정을 측정할 방법이 없기 때문에 궁극적으로 "예시바" 교육에 대한 불만사항은 실패할 수밖에 없다.RS 및 올바른 소스가 제공됨.예를 들어 유대법칙인 슐칸 아루크에 유대법칙의 어떤 사안을 어떻게 다스리는가에 관한 내용이 적혀 있다면 먼저 인용할 필요가 있고, 그 다음에 다른 POV를 삽입할 수 있다.이것은 본질적으로 모든 히브리 성경 기사로 해야 할 일, 첫째는 1차적 출처에서의 본래의 인용과 서술, 그리고 나중엔 2차적 논평이 나온다.이러한 경우가 ArbCom으로 넘어가면 ArbCom이 WP를 결정하지 않기 때문에 ArbCom은 그 얼굴에 납작 엎어질 경우, ArbCom은 WP:콘텐츠 분쟁.IZAK (대화) 19:36, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 내가 자주 설명했듯이.성경은 유대교와 기독교를 위한 기초 문서다.후자는 알렉산드리아에서 생산된 그리스판 유대인을 사용했다.그래서 우리가 성경을 인용하는 곳에서는 그것을 히브리 성서로 인용하지 않는데, 여기서 정의 형용사는 소유욕이 있다.우리는 두 전통을 모두 포함하는 성경을 인용한다.그것은 여러 버전의 차이점이 있기 때문에 문제의 시작에 불과하며, 히브리 성경은 9화에서 일어나지 않는 타나크(Tanak)의 한 구절을 인용하고 있을 때에만 환기되어야 하는 용어다.기독교 성직자들이 수천 년 동안 광견병 전통만큼이나 고대 문헌에 집착했다는 것은 이곳 사람들의 마음에 들어가기가 매우 어렵다.너의 나머지 발언들은 날리지 않을 것이다.성경에 따르면 데이빗이 한 '견적' 에고, 즉 저것은 무용지물이다.왜냐하면 창조에 대한 창조를 인용하는 것은 무의미하듯이, 하나의 텍스트에 두 개의 모순되고 모순된 버전이 있기 때문에 적어도 세 개의 서로 다르고 종종 모순되는 계정이 존재한다는 것을 우리는 알고 있기 때문이다.그러므로 WP로서 다음과 같다.RS에 따르면, 일차적인 텍스트의 사용은 '극히 주의'해야 하며, 현대적인 성서적 학문의 지원이 없이는 절대 안 된다.니시다니 (토크) 20:07, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- WP의 다른 종교영역에 대해서는 확실하지 않지만, 카테고리에 관한 어떤 기사에서도 다음과 같은 이유로 "우리가 성경을 인용하는 곳에서는 히브리 성서로 인용하지 않는다"는 당신의 주장은 틀렸다.유대교와 유대교 또는 히브리어 성경 등에서는 '신약성서'라는 용어가 인식되지 않거나 '새로운' 성서를 가지고 있는 것처럼 공격적이라고 생각하기 때문에 우리는 '구약성서'나 '셉투아긴트'라는 용어를 독점적으로 사용하고 있지 않다.이것은 거의 처음부터 WP의 오랜 협약이었고, 이것에 대한 오래된 논의가 있었고 WP는 다음과 같은 것이 있었다.컨센서스는 그것에 대해 도달했다.히브리 성경을 일차적 자료로 사용하는 것에 대해서는, '미스'나 '그것이 존재했거나 존재하지 않았다'고 하면서 무언가를 찢어 망각으로 찢어버리기 전에 우선 주제가 무엇인지를 충분히 설명하고 서술해야 한다고 제안하고 싶다.이것이 논리적인 방법이다.어떤 경우든 이것은 대부분 이미 대부분의 WP 성서 기사에서 행해졌다.IZAK (대화) 20:44, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 더 명확하게 하기 위해서 나는 '우리는 사용해야 한다'라고 썼어야 했다.너의 나머지 말은 무식하다.셉투아긴트는 신약성서를 포함하지 않으며 유대인에게 불쾌감을 주지 않는다.아마도 다음 세기 동안 유대인의 절반은 히브리어나 아라마어로는 몰랐을 것이고, 다만 그리스어 버전의 그들의 경전만을 알고 있었을 것이다.알렉산드리아의 필로는 그리스어로 글을 썼다. 그는 그 작품들을 읽을 수 없었고, 다른 언어로 된 인프라인 토론도 읽을 수 없었다.그는 그 시대의 많은 주요 유대인 학자들과 마찬가지로 그리스어로 쓰고 읽었다.이것은 다른 것보다도 먼저, 복음서의 상당 부분 뒤에 있는 아라마어 텍스트들은, 그리고 성경처럼, 쓰여지고, 다시 쓰고, 수정하고, 만지작거리다가, 어떤 최종적인 형태가 합의되기 전까지는 말이다.니시다니 (토크) 06:44, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- WP의 다른 종교영역에 대해서는 확실하지 않지만, 카테고리에 관한 어떤 기사에서도 다음과 같은 이유로 "우리가 성경을 인용하는 곳에서는 히브리 성서로 인용하지 않는다"는 당신의 주장은 틀렸다.유대교와 유대교 또는 히브리어 성경 등에서는 '신약성서'라는 용어가 인식되지 않거나 '새로운' 성서를 가지고 있는 것처럼 공격적이라고 생각하기 때문에 우리는 '구약성서'나 '셉투아긴트'라는 용어를 독점적으로 사용하고 있지 않다.이것은 거의 처음부터 WP의 오랜 협약이었고, 이것에 대한 오래된 논의가 있었고 WP는 다음과 같은 것이 있었다.컨센서스는 그것에 대해 도달했다.히브리 성경을 일차적 자료로 사용하는 것에 대해서는, '미스'나 '그것이 존재했거나 존재하지 않았다'고 하면서 무언가를 찢어 망각으로 찢어버리기 전에 우선 주제가 무엇인지를 충분히 설명하고 서술해야 한다고 제안하고 싶다.이것이 논리적인 방법이다.어떤 경우든 이것은 대부분 이미 대부분의 WP 성서 기사에서 행해졌다.IZAK (대화) 20:44, 2020년 6월 18일 (UTC)[
- 에르멘리히—당신은
"당신
이 그에게반대하는 어떤 논쟁도 그가 어떤 식으로든 반박
할 것"이라고 말한다.
믿는 게 좋을 거야.그리고 그것이 위키피디아가 스스로 실행해야 하는 방법이다. AN/I로 달려가 누군가를 차단하거나 주제를 금지시키려 하는 것이 아니라, 시민적이고 정직한 토론과 궁극적으로 출처에 대한 존중에 의해.버스정류장(토크) 13:52, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[- 너는 분명히 내가 말하는 요점을 놓친다.그의 세계관은 그가 틀리는 것을 용납하지 않기 때문에, 자기 편에는 사실이나 논리가 없어도 논쟁할 것이다.그것은 WP의 사례다.IDNTOHEARTHEART, ANI의 경우는 매우 많다.--Ermenrich (토크) 14:01, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 에르멘리히—당신은
- 응, 고마워.실제로 일부 편집자들이 유대교의 개념 자체가 유대교 내에서 발생하기 전에 이단이라는 개념을 가지고 있었다고 생각하는 것을 발견하는 것은 매우 우스운 일이다.실제로 이단이라는 랍비닉적 개념은 헬레니즘 그리스어로 그 개념이 발달하면서 생겨났다.내가 자주 편집하는 곳에서는 이것은 변칙이 아니다.그것은 표준이다.정책에서는 모든 것이 인터커뮤니케이션 담당자들이 귀기울일 것이라는 것을 나타내더라도 추론을 계속해야 한다고 말한다.위키피디아는 WP를 크게 강조했다.AGF, 당신은 약간의 조급함 때문에 유죄판결을 받을 수 있다.그러나 그 원인을 언급해 보십시오 - WP:그 특성 - 그리고 하나는 무시될 것이다.관리자들은 그것을 너무 주관적인 요청으로 간주한다.이스라엘과 디아스포라에는 이런 주제에 대해 수천 명의 학생들이 날카롭게 알고 있을 것이다. 그리고 나는 종종 그들이 이 지역들을 편집하는 시간을 할애하고, 나 같은 사람들이 진정한 신자들이 저지른 더 명백하고 피상적인 실수를 바로잡아야 하는 것을 막았으면 한다.니시다니 (토크) 13:55, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 니시다니—나는 개인적으로 당신이
"고이"
라는 것을 아는 것에 전혀 관심이 없다.도그휘슬 소리 좀 줄여줘.이는"나는 종종
그들이 이러한영역을 편집
하는 데시간을 할애하고, 나와 같은 키비칭
이 더분명한
부분을수정해야 하는 것을 막을
수있기를 바란다"
는 답변이다.버스정류장(토크) 14:04, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[- 아이러니하고 유머감각을 가져라.당신이 에르멘리히에게 한 앞서 한 말에 대해, 나는 편집자들이 코멘트에 답하기 전에 문장을 정확하게 수축시키는 법을 배우는 것이 중요하다고 생각한다.그 단어들은 신중히 선택된다.당신이 즐기는 관점에 대해 누군가 당신에게 말할 수 있는 어떤 것에 대항하는 것은, 그리고 그렇게 함으로써, 그 제안을 거절할 수 있는 '어떤 방법'이나 다른 방법을 찾는 것은, 어떤 형태의 합리적인 대화가 어떻게 기능하는지가 아니다.상호이해라는 변증법에 의해 논점이 명확해지는 것이 아니라 단순히 논점을 점수로 하는 것으로 가정하는 이념적으로 폐쇄적인 사고방식의 특징이다.니시다니 (토크) 14:10, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 니시다니—나는 개인적으로 당신이
- 니시다니—당신이 자신에 대해 "고이"라는 단어를 사용하는 것은 아이러니하거나 유머러스하다고 생각하지 않는다."나는 유대인이 아니다" 또는 "나는 기독교인이 아니다" 또는 "나는 종교가 없다"라고 말할 수 있지만, 이 대화에서 goy라는 용어와 관련된 짐을 강요하지 마십시오.버스정류장 (대화) 14:22, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 냐아나야아니야바로 그거야, 기분 상하게 해서, 모든 사람들의 시선이 문제의 고기에서 사람들의 예민한 편향으로 바뀌게 하고, 문제는 '감정'이다.여기 내 게시물에는 감정적인 것이 없다.만약 네가 기분이 상했다면, 나는 아이러니하게도, 이런 맥락에서 나를 괴짜라고 부른다. 그것은 너의 문제다.여기서 키우지 마.니시다니 (토크) 15:25, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 위와 같이 개똥구리에 대한 언급이 매우 불쾌하다고 생각한다.당신이 "개 휘파람 소리"라고 말할 때 당신은 그 사람이 대다수의 사람들에게 정상적인 영어의 의미를 지닌 용어를 의도적으로 사용했다고 말하고 있다. 하지만 아마도 인종차별주의자인 특정 수신자들을 위한 비밀 암호 단어일 것이다.그것은 본질적으로, 그들이 실제로 쓴 어떤 것도 인종차별주의적이지 않을 때 그들이 진정으로 의미하는 것은 인종차별주의라고 상대방에게 말하는 것이다.다른 인종주의자들에게 비밀 암호문을 보내는 비밀 인종차별주의자가 아니라는 것을 피고인이 어떻게 증명할 수 있을까? --Guy Macon (대화) 16:19, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 냐아나야아니야바로 그거야, 기분 상하게 해서, 모든 사람들의 시선이 문제의 고기에서 사람들의 예민한 편향으로 바뀌게 하고, 문제는 '감정'이다.여기 내 게시물에는 감정적인 것이 없다.만약 네가 기분이 상했다면, 나는 아이러니하게도, 이런 맥락에서 나를 괴짜라고 부른다. 그것은 너의 문제다.여기서 키우지 마.니시다니 (토크) 15:25, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 니시다니—당신이 자신에 대해 "고이"라는 단어를 사용하는 것은 아이러니하거나 유머러스하다고 생각하지 않는다."나는 유대인이 아니다" 또는 "나는 기독교인이 아니다" 또는 "나는 종교가 없다"라고 말할 수 있지만, 이 대화에서 goy라는 용어와 관련된 짐을 강요하지 마십시오.버스정류장 (대화) 14:22, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 네 말은 맞지만 걱정할 필요는 없어.내 아내는 거의 60년 전에 그녀가 글쓰기를 가르치고 있던 늙은 농민 비데에게 들었다. 그는 고통에 대한 그녀의 극도의 감수성을 지적했다.'Teacha, 나르티코크 같은 야브타베쿰: 내부는 부드럽고 달콤하지만 바깥은 거친 숨결을 가지고 있다.'(순수 사투리 에르고 필사) 위키에서 가장 좋은 방법은 핵심 문제에 집중하는 것이며, 이런 종류의 맥락에서 풍토인 빈뇨를 다루는 것이다- 실제로 wr가 해석되는 대신에 인식된 하위 텍스트로 모든 것을 읽는 것이다.열 개 - 아주 쉽게.니시다니 (토크) 16:33, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
여기 다른 종교 이단이라고 부르는 것 외에 다른 문제들이 있는데, 그것은 심각하지만, 내가 지금 이 시점에서 덧붙일 것이 없을 정도로 충분히 문서화 되어 있다.
원리주의
이 편집에 관심을 끌고자 하는 경우:[51]
쉽게 입증된 주장에 대해 다음과 같이 답변:
- "헤레시에 대한 정의는 어떤 정통 유대계에서는 때때로 다르다.일부 초정통 유대인들은 그의 토라에 대한 보다 자유로운 해석 때문에 마이모니데스의 많은 작품들을 이단적인 것으로 여긴다.그렇기는 하지만, 많은 정교회 유대인들도 마이모니데스의 미셰네 토라를 매우 높이 평가한다.소수의 하레디 유대인들은 보수적이고 개혁적인 유대인 운동을 이단적인 것으로 간주하고, 사트마르와 같은 하시디파 단체들은 이스라엘 주를 이단적인 기관으로 간주하고 있다."
IZAK의 주장
- "정교 유대교의 헤레시 기사에서 지적한 바와 같이, 토라, 마이모니데스, 유대 율법의 다른 강령들이 모두 100% WP라고 되어 있기 때문에, 이는 틀렸다.NPOV 및 WP 준수:NOR."
이것은 모든 종류의 원리주의자들에게 공통적인 기본적인 오류를 보여준다.그들은 자신들의 성서에 대한 종파의 해석만이 본문을 읽을 수 있는 유일한 방법이라고 100% 확신하고 있다.만약 그들의 종교의 또 다른 분파, 심지어 밀접한 관련이 있는 분파라도 그것을 다르게 읽는다면 그들은 속거나 이단자가 되어야 한다.스스로를 정통 유대교라고 부르는 모든 집단이 이단이라는 정확히 같은 정의를 가지고 있다는 것은 명백하게 사실이 아니며, 모두가 토라의 정확한 의미에 동의한다는 것은 사실이 아니다.우리는 근본주의 기독교와 근본주의 이슬람에서도 같은 것을 본다. 모든 사람들은 그들의 가르침이 100% 성경이나 코란에서 온 것이라고 말한다. 서로 다른 집단은 똑같은 원천 자료에서 시작했음에도 불구하고 서로 다른 가르침을 가지고 있으며, 다른 사람들은 모두 속거나 이단자라고 치부한다.그들이 동의하는 것은 많지만, 그들은 확실히 모든 것에 동의하지는 않는다.
동일한 편집은 IZAKs 편집에서 반복적으로 발견되는 태도를 보여준다.클레임에 대한 응답
- "소수의 하레디 유대인들은 보수와 개혁 유대인 운동을 이단적인 것으로 간주하고, 사트마르와 같은 하시디 단체들은 이스라엘 주를 이단적인 기관으로 간주하고 있다."
IZAK 응답
- "저자는 거대한 주류인 헤레디와 정교회 운동을 소외시킴으로써 자신이 왜 이런 일을 하고 있는지를 WP를 근거로 설명할 반헤레디와 심지어 반정서적 편견까지 드러낸다.아이돈트라이크잇(IDONTLICELICHIT) 말고는
IZAK의 메시지는 단지 주장이 잘못되었거나 그것을 만든 사람이 잘못되었다는 것이 아니라, 그 주장을 한 사람이 편견을 가지고 있다는 것이다.
이것은 고립된 사건이 아니다.Talk를 검사:유대교에서는 사두교 신자들이 이단자들이지만 바리새파 신자들은 이단자들이 아니라고 주장하는 IZAK를 보게 될 것이다.근본주의 종파에 속하지 않는 사실상 모든 사람들은 이 두 종파가 모두 IZAK의 종파의 전조였던 고대 종파였고, 당시 IZAK의 종파가 존재하지 않았다는 것에 동의한다.이것은 또한 모든 줄무늬의 근본주의자들 사이에서 흔한 오류다.19세기 후반에 생겨난 기독교의 한 분파인 기독교의 오순절주의를 비교해보라.[52][53][54] 그러나 그들은 사도시대 초기 교회와 정확히 동일하다고 믿는다.(그들과 수백 개의 다른 기독교 종파들, 모두 완전히 다른 믿음을 가진...)
유사이론적 수정주의 수정론
다음 편집을 고려하십시오.[55][56][57][58][59]
여기서 IZAK는 페이지의 잘 짜여진 현대 장학금 부분을 삭제하고, 편집 요약본 "신화가 아니다"와 함께 "출애굽은 이스라엘 자손의 헌장 신화"를 "출애굽은 고대 이집트를 떠나는 이스라엘 자손의 이야기"로 바꾸려고 했다. 수십억의 사람들은 그것이 사실이라고 믿는다. WP를 피하십시오.OR please"와 "히브리 성경 및 랍비니컬 유대교 해설자들은 WP:RS와 일차적 출처, 그의 허구적 마음속에서 어떤 프로파일이 주장하는 것이 아니다."
그리고 나서 그는 WP에 종사했다.그의 POV를 지지할 것으로 믿었던 편집자 의견 수렴:[60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67]
그는 위키피디아에서 자신을 지지하기 위해 많은 편집자들을 조사했다.정교회 유대교의 삭제/이단 조항.이것들은 이미 이 실에 기재되어 있다.
IZAK는 여기서 소싱에 대한 자신의 정책을 설명한다.
- "당신이 WP 논쟁에서 성경을 '귀납할 수 없다'는 당신의 주장은 우스꽝스러운데, 왜냐하면 그것이 바로 당신이 하고 있는 일이기 때문이다, 당신은 성경을 인용하여 소위 세속적인 반종교적 교수들을 인용하여 폄하하는 한편, 나는 고대부터 현대에 이르기까지 유대 현대에 이르기까지 계속되는 토라의 장학금에 의존하고 있다.그 중 d 다음은 히브리 성경의 진실성과 유대교의 구전 도라의 100% 진실과 100% 신뢰성에 대해 내가 말해야 할 것을 주장하고 긍정할 것이다:All in Judais의 구전 토라: All in Category:Rabbis in Category - 2천년에 걸쳐 수천 명의 유대 학자들이 내가 D를 위해 노력하고 있는 것에 동의할 것이다.에스크라이브하고 설명하시오.내가 너의 세속적인 POV를 위해 길을 내주듯이 너는 좀 더 종교적인 POV를 위해 길을 내주어야 한다. 그것은 그만큼 간단하다."[68]
WP:에르멘리히와 트조르게스쿠에 대한 배틀필드 사고방식
- "User와 같은 다수의 편집자가 다음과 같은 사실을 알게 되었다.에르멘리히는 WP에서 연기를 해왔다.유대교와 관련된 기사에서는 자신의 태도를 버리고, 고전적인 유대인 해설자와 장학금의 말을 부정하기 위해 전력을 다한다.네가 세속적인 반종교적 교수들을 인용할 수 있다는 것은 매우 좋은 일이지만, 그들은 유대 신학에 대해 잘 알고 있고, 성서적으로나 심지어 유대인들에 대해서라면 무엇이든 반대할 수 있는 도끼를 가지고 있을 뿐이다."[69]
- "당신은 유대교, 확실히 정교 유대교가 그것들의 가장 신성한 본문을 보는 방식에 대한 감상이 부족한 것 같군...다른 유대인 편집자들을 화나게 하고 있다[70]
- "당신의 급진적인 세속주의..."[71]
- "사용자:에르멘리히는 WP의 태도를 보여준다.출애굽기 기사에서 제 요점은 그가 알레르기가 있는 것처럼 보이는 몇몇 유대인 연구 내용을 기사의 선두에 소개하는 것이었습니다."[72]
- "ping Ermenrich The 유태인 종교적인 접근은 출애굽기 같은 글에서 정당화된다, 당신은 WP가 아니다.주제나 기사를 소유하라...그게 네가 하는 짓이야, 유대교와 기독교의 관점을 그들의 본문에 투영하는거지, 후일 논평들을 삽입해서...현대 장학금은 비례하고 연대순으로 정렬되어야 한다."[73]
- "얼굴을 봐, WP:IDONTLY는 "이단"이라는 단어와 전혀 유사하다.[74]
- ping Tgeorgescu All I can everything out this last comments: "ping Tgeorgescu All I cannot아이돈트라이크 종교, 그것 자체가 POV 편향이다."[75]
- "당신 말에 의하면, 어떤 일에도 '이단'은 없다...현실 세계에 존재하는 것을 말하는 사람들을 공격하며 뛰어다닐 수는 없다."[76]
- "여러분은 종교가 어떻게 작용하는지 이해하지 못하고 유대교의 서로 다른 흐름과 그들이 서로를 어떻게 판단하는지에 대한 내면의 작용에 대해 전혀 알지 못한다."[77]
- "당신이 loco의 개념과 용어를 이해하지 못하는 것은 내 잘못이 아니다."[78]
- "당신이 함께 오기 전까지는 아무도 그것에 문제가 없었다."[79]
- "에르멘리히, 네 숙제나 독서는 해줄 수 없어...[80]
(나는 이 시점에서 그의 편집 이력을 읽는 것을 중단했다.위의 내용은 그 행동을 보여준다.엄청난 추가 게시물을 통해 계속된다.) --Guy Macon (대화) 04:41, 2020년 6월 20일 (UTC)[
클로즈업 요청
이는 지난 11일부터 공개되었으며, IZAK의 토크 페이지에 대한 작지만 여전히 큰 토론과 함께 거대해지고 있다.나는 자발적이지 않은 행정관이 토론을 평가하고 합의된 행정 조치가 있는지 여부를 결정할 수 있을 만큼 충분히 이야기 되었다고 생각한다. --Guy Macon (대화) 17:13, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
- 둘째. 지금 따라오는 것은 기본적으로 불가능하며, 위에서 말한 바와 같이 많은 분야에서 원래 지점으로부터 꽤 많이 헤매고 있다.--에르멘리히 (토크) 17:35, 2020년 6월 17일 (UTC)[
전 이 논쟁에, 만약 제가, 오직 몇가지 의견:비록 그것이 새로운 어떤 것을 말하는 것은 의미가 없을지도 모르이 스레드 여전히 활동적입니다(1)이 두툼한 스레드,& 쉽게 단일 판독으로 하는 것이 아니라,(2), 첫번째 사항을 참조하십시오. &,(3)이 실 많은 사람들은 fin 수 있는 단어를 포함하는 것을 형성하는 이 문 닫는 궁금해 하고 있어 왔다.d(우리에게e 하늘이 무너져도 우리에게 예의를 지키려는 재단의 십자군원정의 관심사가 된 말, '이단' 독성,A그룹이 B그룹을 '이단적'으로 간주한다고 진술하는 것과 하나 이상의 그룹이 '이단적'이라는 문제를 사실로 받아들이는 것은 별개다.--llywratch (대화) 06:52, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- Llywrch, 내 생각에, 어떤 가까운 곳이라도 다음과 같은 우려를 다루어야 한다.
- 일부 편집자는 위의 일부 측면이 "실제 문제"이며 다른 측면은 더 가까이서 다루어서는 안 된다는 의견인 반면, 다른 편집자는 위의 모든 부분이 다루어져야 할 측면이라는 의견인 반면 --Guy Macon (talk) 16:00, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 가이 마콘: 단지 몇 가지 관찰, 1 당신은 "다른 종파를 이단자로 표기한 편집자들, 특히 범주에 있어서도 그렇지만 일반에 있어서도" 이 "편집자들"은 어디에 있는가?분류에 집중했기 때문에, 나는 유대교에서 헤리의 내용을 적용하고 있었다(나는 그것을 쓰지 않았다.일부 기사에는 유대교의 이단, 정교회의 이단(I didn't write it)은 범주별로 다음과 같다.정교회 유대교의 이단자 몇몇에게.이것은 "다른 종파를 이단자로 분류하는 것"이 아니라 단순한 WP 분류다.이제 다른 편집자들이 동의하지 않는다면, 내 편집 내용을 되돌리고 토론하십시오. 이것은 이것이 단지 WP일 뿐이라는 것을 증명한다.모든 비율에서 벗어난 내용 분쟁. 2 범주 섹션만 편집했으므로 "일반적으로"에 대한 당신의 추가 내용은 사실이 아니다! 3 그러면 당신은 "WP에 인용된 주장을 삭제하는 보고서:CHRECH 출처와 그것들을 고대 종교문서로 소싱된 가증적 주장으로 대체하는 것" 어디서 이런 일이 일어났는가???????????? 그게 다야. 출애굽기사의 몇마디?어디서 내가 이런 일을 저질렀다는 것을 지적할 수 있겠니???아무데나?!!!!!!!!! 왜냐하면 이건 단지 과장하는 것이기 때문이다.출애굽기처럼 히브리 성서에서 바로 나온 주제에 히브리 성경을 인용하는 것은 "의사-아무것도"가 아니다. 그것은 명백한 사실이다.4 "무능"에 대해서는 이미 48시간 동안 내 코멘트를 차단당했는데, 그것은 다시 내가 다른 어떤 것보다도 화려한 산문을 사용한 데 기인하므로, 다시 한 번 과장하지 말고 몰골로 산을 만들어라.감사합니다, IZAK (토크) 17:27, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- IZAK는 10년 반 동안 위키피디아에 헌신해왔으며, 그것만으로도 고려할 가치가 있다는 것을 명심하라.아무도 그의 신념에 대한 권리에 의문을 제기하지 않지만, 그는 미래에 그의 종교적 의제를 밀어붙일 곳이 없는 세속적인 백과사전이라는 정확한 인식에 동참해야 한다.그들은 단지 현대의 동료들이 검토한 장학금을 통해서만 인용되어야 한다.만약 그가 그것을 받아들인다면, 어떠한 제재나 제한도 전혀 필요하지 않을 것이다.그것은 용납할 수 없는 요구는 아니다: 그가 보도하고 있는 많은 것이 개인적으로 불편하다고 느낄 수 있는 세부 사항들을 덧붙이는 수많은 책들에서 아름답게 논의되고 있다.인생은 우리 모두의 삶이다.니시다니 (토크) 17:26, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 니시다니의 지혜는 높이 평가하지만, 그가 말하는 것은 여기 ANI에서 당면한 주제와는 아무 상관이 없다.내가 WP를 준수하지 않는 WP의 모든 곳을 지적할 수 있는 사람이 있는가?RS 및 WP:내가 의존하는 NPOV는 "일차적인 소스" ??? 그리고 나는 기꺼이 철회할 것이다. 그때까지만 해도 니시다니는 고전적인 청어 접점을 만들고 있었고 그는 나의 WP 전문성과 지성을 모욕하면서 나에게 사과해야 할 것이다.IZAK (대화) 17:35, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 문제의 차이점은 이미 나의 초기 불만사항과 그 다음에 TBAN을 요청했지만, 당신이 [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91] 등 이단 주제에 대해 질문한 이후, 종교적인 주요 출처에 유리한 소스 정보의 제거: [92], [93], [94].이단 편집에 찬성하는 2차적 출처는 없고, 이단 편집에 가장 좋은 것은 유대인 백과사전이다. 그러나 이단 편집에는 당신이 가지고 있는 어떤 집단도 이단자로 낙인찍지 않고, 단지 당신이 그 때 적용한 마이모니데스에 의해 발명된 몇 가지 기준만을 제시한다.-에르멘리히 (토) 17:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[ 하라
- 에르멘리히: 물론 그러한 것들은 문제의 범주들이었습니다, 만약 당신이 되돌리거나, 삭제하거나, 해결될 때까지 토론하는 것에 동의하지 않는다면.그러나 그것은 여전히 WP로 남아있다.콘텐트는 그 이상도 이하도 아니다.어떤 경우에도 편집자의 알 수 없는 개인적 신념을 계속 고수할 수는 없다.2 유대교와 특히 정교 유대교는 필연적으로 헤레시의 사상을 관찰하는데, 그것은 "나의" 관점이 아니다.3 나는 단지 Maimonides를 인용한 것이 아니라 40개 이상의 WP를 가진 유대교 신앙원칙의 WP 기사를 보라고 말했다.RS는 유대교 신앙 원칙에서 언급된 바 있다.#신앙의 유대교 원리#신앙의 유대교 원리#이레시의 개념이 유대교에서 어떻게 작용하고 어떻게 적용되는지를 분명히 해줄 것이다.고전적인 유대교에 관한 한 유대교의 신앙원칙에 대한 비준수 =유대교의 이단.생각해보면 사실 꽤 간단하다.현대인은 이런 사고방식에 익숙하지 않아서 많은 WP에 도달한다.아돈트라이크잇 반응.4 마이모니데스는 유대 율법의 가장 위대한 코디네이터인 만큼 유대교의 궁극적인 권위자다. 그래서 나는 또한 당신에게 유대교의 신앙 원리#마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원리를 살펴보라고 말했는데, 다시 '내' 개인 POV가 아니라, 단지 검증 가능한 사실의 진술이다.5 그런데 유대교에서 이단성을 정의해야 하고, 그 때문에 에피코로스 기사를 그 개념에 대한 소개로 보아라.6 엑소더스 기사의 경우, 당신은 모든 것을 지나치게 부풀리고 사용자로서:Atsme은 당신에게 다음과 같이 말했다: "Ermenrich, 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지, 행동적인 문제가 아니다.탐문 수사라는 주장은 잘못된 것이다. 적어도 내 관점에서는.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.그 편집자의 관점에서 볼 때, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.실제로 역사적으로 어떤 일이 일어났는지에 대한 학자적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.당신이 편집 전쟁의 증거로 제공한 3개의 편집은 그 특정 글에 제한이 없는 한 편집의 선을 넘지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 그러나 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다."감사합니다, IZAK (토크) 18:13, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 한 편집자의 의견은 wp에 대해 소싱된 자료를 제거했다는 사실을 바꾸지 않는다.당신의 종교적 신념 때문에 NPOV.당신은 개혁 유대주의, 헬레니즘 유대주의, 사마리아주의 등이 자신이 그렇다고 말하는 범주를 추가하는 것을 정당화하기 위한 이단이라고 말하지 않는 위키피디아 페이지를 계속 가리키고 있다.유대인의 신앙 원리#마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원리는 어디에서도 이단어를 언급하지 않는다.wp 사용:아니면 유대교에서 이단인지 아닌지를 그 원칙에 기초하여 결정할 수도 있다.
- NPOV를 위반하거나, 소싱된 정보를 제거하거나, 기본 소스를 기반으로 항목을 추가한 시기를 물으셨다고 말씀드렸었습니다.얼굴이 파랗게 질 때까지 ANI의 정당성 여부를 따질 수는 있지만 그렇다고 해서 그 일을 했다는 사실이 달라지지는 않는다.왜 그렇게 인정하기가 어려운지 모르겠어.
- 그런데, 당신이 나와 다른 사람들을 공포에 떨며 유대인 '마라노스'를 감추게 하는 조사관이라고 특징지을 때 우리가 "종교적 신념을 의심하고 있다"는 이 새로운 주장은 나를 가스불빛의 한 형태로 강타한다.--에르멘리히 (토크) 18:26, 2020년 6월 19 (UTC) 하라
- 에르멘리히: 물론 그러한 것들은 문제의 범주들이었습니다, 만약 당신이 되돌리거나, 삭제하거나, 해결될 때까지 토론하는 것에 동의하지 않는다면.그러나 그것은 여전히 WP로 남아있다.콘텐트는 그 이상도 이하도 아니다.어떤 경우에도 편집자의 알 수 없는 개인적 신념을 계속 고수할 수는 없다.2 유대교와 특히 정교 유대교는 필연적으로 헤레시의 사상을 관찰하는데, 그것은 "나의" 관점이 아니다.3 나는 단지 Maimonides를 인용한 것이 아니라 40개 이상의 WP를 가진 유대교 신앙원칙의 WP 기사를 보라고 말했다.RS는 유대교 신앙 원칙에서 언급된 바 있다.#신앙의 유대교 원리#신앙의 유대교 원리#이레시의 개념이 유대교에서 어떻게 작용하고 어떻게 적용되는지를 분명히 해줄 것이다.고전적인 유대교에 관한 한 유대교의 신앙원칙에 대한 비준수 =유대교의 이단.생각해보면 사실 꽤 간단하다.현대인은 이런 사고방식에 익숙하지 않아서 많은 WP에 도달한다.아돈트라이크잇 반응.4 마이모니데스는 유대 율법의 가장 위대한 코디네이터인 만큼 유대교의 궁극적인 권위자다. 그래서 나는 또한 당신에게 유대교의 신앙 원리#마이모니데스의 13가지 신앙 원리를 살펴보라고 말했는데, 다시 '내' 개인 POV가 아니라, 단지 검증 가능한 사실의 진술이다.5 그런데 유대교에서 이단성을 정의해야 하고, 그 때문에 에피코로스 기사를 그 개념에 대한 소개로 보아라.6 엑소더스 기사의 경우, 당신은 모든 것을 지나치게 부풀리고 사용자로서:Atsme은 당신에게 다음과 같이 말했다: "Ermenrich, 당신이 묻고 있는 것은 내용적인 문제지, 행동적인 문제가 아니다.탐문 수사라는 주장은 잘못된 것이다. 적어도 내 관점에서는.편집자가 기사 편집을 위한 협업을 요청하고 있었는데, 그건 탐문수사가 아니다.그것을 스팸이라고 부를 만큼 충분한 요청이 없었다.그 편집자의 관점에서 볼 때, 당신은 WP를 따르지 않았다.자기 자신. 그들은 의견을 표현할 자격이 있고, 당신이 여기서 한 것처럼 자유롭게 말할 수 있다.실제로 역사적으로 어떤 일이 일어났는지에 대한 학자적 인식을 놓고 갈등이 있는 것 같다.당신이 편집 전쟁의 증거로 제공한 3개의 편집은 그 특정 글에 제한이 없는 한 편집의 선을 넘지 않는다.우리는 WP에 의한 주요 출처를 인용하는 것이 실제로 허용된다.PSTS 그러나 다시 말하지만, 나는 내용을 논의하러 온 것이 아니다."감사합니다, IZAK (토크) 18:13, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- 문제의 차이점은 이미 나의 초기 불만사항과 그 다음에 TBAN을 요청했지만, 당신이 [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91] 등 이단 주제에 대해 질문한 이후, 종교적인 주요 출처에 유리한 소스 정보의 제거: [92], [93], [94].이단 편집에 찬성하는 2차적 출처는 없고, 이단 편집에 가장 좋은 것은 유대인 백과사전이다. 그러나 이단 편집에는 당신이 가지고 있는 어떤 집단도 이단자로 낙인찍지 않고, 단지 당신이 그 때 적용한 마이모니데스에 의해 발명된 몇 가지 기준만을 제시한다.-에르멘리히 (토) 17:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[ 하라
- 니시다니의 지혜는 높이 평가하지만, 그가 말하는 것은 여기 ANI에서 당면한 주제와는 아무 상관이 없다.내가 WP를 준수하지 않는 WP의 모든 곳을 지적할 수 있는 사람이 있는가?RS 및 WP:내가 의존하는 NPOV는 "일차적인 소스" ??? 그리고 나는 기꺼이 철회할 것이다. 그때까지만 해도 니시다니는 고전적인 청어 접점을 만들고 있었고 그는 나의 WP 전문성과 지성을 모욕하면서 나에게 사과해야 할 것이다.IZAK (대화) 17:35, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
- IZAK는 10년 반 동안 위키피디아에 헌신해왔으며, 그것만으로도 고려할 가치가 있다는 것을 명심하라.아무도 그의 신념에 대한 권리에 의문을 제기하지 않지만, 그는 미래에 그의 종교적 의제를 밀어붙일 곳이 없는 세속적인 백과사전이라는 정확한 인식에 동참해야 한다.그들은 단지 현대의 동료들이 검토한 장학금을 통해서만 인용되어야 한다.만약 그가 그것을 받아들인다면, 어떠한 제재나 제한도 전혀 필요하지 않을 것이다.그것은 용납할 수 없는 요구는 아니다: 그가 보도하고 있는 많은 것이 개인적으로 불편하다고 느낄 수 있는 세부 사항들을 덧붙이는 수많은 책들에서 아름답게 논의되고 있다.인생은 우리 모두의 삶이다.니시다니 (토크) 17:26, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
내가 위에서 말했듯이, 이 실밥은 아직 살아있다. 사람들은 여전히 서로 경쟁하고 있다.어쩌면 가까이서 결론이 제대로 나오든 말든 그것을 막기 위해서만 문을 닫아야 할지도 모른다. -- 20:35, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC ]
- 동의해. 이 시점에서 며칠 동안 빛보다 더 뜨겁고 그것은 변하지 않을 것 같아.헤이로 22:53, 2020년 6월 19일 (UTC)[
내 켄 너머의 사용자
콘텐츠 분쟁의 정의.기사 토크 페이지에서 토론하십시오!(비관리자 마감)———연속 # 17:44, 2020년 6월 21일(UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자 비욘드 마이 켄은 사도 요한 기사([95], [96], [97])를 두 번 반환했다.그는 세인트 존의 무덤 이미지를 제거한 이유에 대해 설명하지 않았고, 아트 섹션에서 이미지를 삭제했으며 누가 복원했는지 명확하지 않은 마지막 만찬에서 이미지를 추가했다.알렉세이 m (대화) 17:40, 2020년 6월 21일 (UTC)[
플로리다아미와 AfC의 고민
지역사회는 플로리다에 대해 언제든지 20개 이상의 미결 조항이 제출될 수 있도록 제한하고 있다.그들의 기존 메인 스페이스 기사 제작 제한은 여전히 유효하다.— Wug·a·po·des 03:09, 2020년 6월 23일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
여기서 가장 먼저 말해야 할 것은 플로리다아미가 위키에 대해 순긍정적이라는 것에 의심의 여지가 없다는 것이다.아무도 그것에 의문을 제기하지 않는다.그러나 AfC 과정에서의 그의 초안은 (이미 모든 기사를 운용하도록 제재를 받은) 과도한 부담이 되었다.AfC 프로젝트 페이지에서 논의한 결과(여기서 발견) 어떤 조치가 필요하다는 공감대가 형성되어 있다.Kylietastic은 OP에서 가장 잘 요약했다.
플로리다아미가 AfC를 스팸 발송하는 이유를 모르는 사람들은 AfD와 다른 영역에 대한 부담을 AfC로 떠넘기는 ANI 문제 때문이다.그러나 그들의 지속적인 행동은 다른 제출자나 검토자에게 공평하지 않아 보인다.템플릿에 따라:AFC 통계/현재 68건의 공개 제출(전체 제출의 4.6%)을 보유하고 있으며, 변경사항이 거의 없거나 전혀 없는 상태로 재제출하여 훨씬 더 많은 부하를 유발한다.최근에 그들이 초안과 같은 출처가 단 1개뿐인 여러 기사를 제출했다는 것을 알았다.제임스 마틴(사우스캐롤라이나 주), 초안:솔로몬 딜, 드래프트:조셉 크루스와 드래프트:그들이 분명히 알고 있는 루키우스 윔부쉬는 충분하지 않다.어제 나는 초안: Koninklijke Militaire School을 거절했다. 독립된 출처는 없고, 단지 단일 학교들만의 연결고리가 있을 뿐이다.과거에 그들은 동일한 영화에 대한 참고자료로서 단지 영화 이름이나 그들이 분명히 유효하지 않다는 것을 알고 있는 다른 것들과 같은 비참고문들을 추가했다.그들은 일이 어떻게 돌아가는지, 가이드라인을 분명히 이해하지만, 정크푸드를 좋은 것으로 계속 제출하고 편집에 협력하는 태도보다 더 전투적인 태도를 가지고 있다.바이러스 차단 때문인지 (내가 본 바로는) 점점 심해지는 것 같다....지금은 조치를 취할 때가 아닌가?그들은 다른 사람들이 자신들을 위해 일을 하기를 계속 기대하며, 결코 제대로 제출하지 않는다 ({{제출}만 있으면 AFCH가 고쳐질 때까지 작동하지 않는다), 거의 형식적인 참고문헌을 작성하지 않고, 다른 사람이 먼저 개선하지 않고는 수락할 기회가 없는 것을 먼저 제출한다.그들의 행동은 AfD에게 충분히 좋지 않은 것으로 여겨졌는데, 왜 AfC에서 계속하는 것이 괜찮아야 하는가?ANI로 돌아갈까?현재 공개 제출 횟수만 제한하고, 다시 제출만 허용해서는 안 되는가?그들이 한 번에 더 적은 기사에 초점을 맞추고, 더 협력적으로 일한다면 프로젝트에 큰 긍정적인 영향을 미칠 것이라고 확신하지만, 그들이 일하는 방식을 선택하는 것은 다른 사람들(제출자 및/또는 검토자)에게 공평하지 않다.
TL:DR 버전, 편집자는 문제가 있는 초안을 무수히 제출하고 있으며, 이를 개선시키기 위한 검토자들의 무수한 시도에 대응하거나 적응하지 못하고 있다.그들은 다른 사람들이 자신의 일을 하기를 기대하는데, 이것은 특히 편집자가 스스로 할 줄 안다면, 평론자들에게 부과하는 불공평한 부담이다.WP:빌더.
대략적인 합의는 플로르디아를 제한하는 것으로 보인다.육군의 미결 AfC 제출 총계를 한 번에 제출하거나 제출 가능한 비율을 제한하기 위한 것이다.AfC 공동체는 이 상황으로부터의 구제가 절실히 필요하다.위에 언급된 토론에서 플로르디아에 대한 우려를 나타낸 AfC 검토자들을 ping하고 있다.육군의 초안들, 그들 대부분은 또한 어떤 종류의 조치가 취해져 왔다.KylieTastic, Chris 송어맨, Robert McClenon, Nosebagbear, Captain이크랑 나.로이스미스와 스코프 크리프도 우려를 표명했지만 아직 조치가 취해져야 한다고 믿는지는 명시적으로 밝히지 않았다.황보이 (토크) 04:52, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- AfC에서 나는 WP를 방지하기 위해 개별 제출에 제한을 가할 것을 제안했다.게이밍. 나는 플로리다의 각 드래프트가 두 번의 감소를 받고 세 번째 자동적으로 거부되는 3 스트라이크 제도를 제안했다.제출 사이에 개선되지 않는 초안도 자동 거부해야 한다.플로리다는 몇 년 동안 이 일을 해왔기 때문에 더 잘 알아야 한다.비록 내가 말하지만, 나는 플로리다가 계속 남아있기를 매우 원하지만, 그들은 가치 있는 기여자들이고, 나는 결코 우리가 그들을 막아야 한다고 생각하지 않는다.그냥...그들을 안내할 제재를 가하다선장Eek ⚓ 05:07, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 내가 한 말을 분명히 하고, 이것이 사용자:캡틴과 일치한다고 생각한다.이크가 말했다.나는 공동체가 AFC를 통해 그들의 제출을 이미 행한 조치를 넘어 더 이상의 조치를 취할 필요가 없다고 생각한다.나는 심의위원들이 하위커뮤니티로서 언급되고 있는 것과 같은 상식적인 규칙을 시행할 수 있다고 생각한다.만약 이 실의 목적이 그러한 규칙에 대한 지역사회의 토론을 요청하는 것이었다면, 우리는 그 의견을 환영한다. (만약 그 목적이 더 이상의 지역사회의 제한을 가하는 것이라면, 나는 그것이 필요하다고 생각하지 않는다.)로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 05:56, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그들이 각 제출에 선의의 노력을 기울이는 한 50 스트라이크를 연장하는 것을 개의치 않는다.이 때문에 각 제출을 개선할 수 있는 시간을 편집자에게 적극 권장할 수 있기 때문에 미제출 양에 대한 제한이 더 나을 수 있다고 생각한다.그리고 네, 저는 ANI에 이것을 가져오는 것이 어쨌든 사용자를 금지시키기 위한 노력으로 해석되어서는 안된다는 느낌을 반영한다.
- 그 대신, 나는 어떤 공식적인 규제가 필요하다고 생각해.나는 (검토자로서) ANI의 지원 없이 상식적인 규칙을 집행할 수 있다는 로버트의 낙관론에 동의하지 않는다. 왜냐하면 우리는 그것을 시도해 보았으나 지금까지 효과가 없었기 때문이다.유황소년 (토크) 06:15, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 플로리다의 몇몇을 받아들이고 거절했다.AfC의 육군 초안.몇몇은 괜찮은 기사였고, 즉시 받아들여졌고, 몇몇은 약간 눈에 띄었지만, 몇몇은 내가 쉽게 접근할 수 없는 다른 출처를 발견한 후 선을 넘었고, 나는 어떤 "명예하지 않은" 자료도 기억하지 못하지만, 몇몇은 드래프트 공간을 준비하지 못한 것으로 기억한다.AfC는 이런 종류의 것에 완벽하다.우리의 목표는 백과사전을 개선하는 것이며, 플로리다아미가 만든 기사들은 대체로 주목할 만하다.나는 우려를 반영하지만, 조치를 취할 필요는 없다고 본다. 만약 어떤 것이라도 AfC를 최소한 두 가지 출처를 가지고 제출하도록 요구하는 제한이 백과사전에게 가장 유익할 것이다.나도 주제가 정말 눈에 띄면 삼진법이 문제가 될 수 있다고 생각한다.SportingFlyer T/C 06:18, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 질문 잠시 악마의 옹호자 역할을 하기 위해서, 내가 여기서 실제 문제가 무엇인지 정중하게 탐구할 수 있을까?AfC 검토는 자발적이며, 당신은 어떤 초안을 검토할 것인지, 그리고 어떤 초안을 통과시킬 것인지 선택할 수 있다.만약 검토자가 플로리다를 검토하는 것을 좋아하지 않는다면육군의 초안은 일이 너무 많이 필요하기 때문에 다른 사람의 제출로 넘어가면 얼마든지 넘겨줄 수 있다.AfC 시스템에서 오랫동안 서성거리는 한 편집자의 오래된 초안 수가 많으면서도 터무니없지는 않은 큰 문제가 있는가?아마도 긴 대기 시간이 FA가 좀 더 빨리 심사받기를 바라면서 그들의 드래프트에 조금 더 많은 작업을 투입하도록 부추길지도 모른다.나는 SportingFlyer고 그three-strike-reject 옵션 이상적인- 어쩌면 더 나은 시도-시간 의존적(예를 들어 일주일에 더 하나 이상의 복종)또는backlog-dependent AfC 독자 투고 FA 줄 수 있다는 수를 제한하는 것 만약 그들이 > 있는 예를 들어 10분 현재 queu에 어떤 새로운 초안 제출할 수 있을 것처럼 보이지 않아 추가하겠습니다.e). GirthSummit (blether) 07:56, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 문제는 그렇게 많지 않아서 초안이 많이 나와 있다.문제는 개선사항이 거의 없는 상태에서 계속 재제출하는 것이다.출처의 형식이 정기적으로 부적절하다.신뢰할 수 없는 출처의 지속적인 사용.지속적인 철자/문법 오류.관련 없는 문장의 지속적인 추가.나는 일반적으로 사용자가 경험이 부족하거나 새로운 사용자가 기사를 수정하는 것을 돕는 것을 좋아한다면 이것에 대해 아무런 문제가 없다.그러나 이 편집자는 새로운 것이 아니다.그들은 더 잘 알고 있다.그들은 검토자들로부터 기본적인 청소만 해달라는 요청을 수없이 받아왔다.그들은 또한 기사 출처를 제대로 알려달라는 요청을 받았다.그들은 이것에 대해 완전히 무응답이고, 그것은 점점 더 악화되고 있는 것 같다.
- 예 AfC는 자발적인 것이고, 위키피디아도 모두 그렇다.AFD는 자발적이고 FA의 부담으로 처리되었는데, 왜 같은 일이 여기서 이루어질 수 없는지는 잘 모르겠다.결국 누군가가 이 초안을 검토해야 한다.나는 내가 리뷰하는 것을 필터링하는 것을 좋아하지 않고 그냥 목록으로 내려간다.평론가들에게 문제를 그냥 해결하는 대신에 그들이 검토하는 것을 선택하라고 요구하는 것은 비효율적으로 보인다.유황소년 (토크) 14:19, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 우리가 강박관념에 사로잡혀 있는 곳이라면 어디서든 명백히 백로그를 촉발시키는 효과에 발맞춰, 나는 매일 두세 개의 형편없이 부족한 초안을 만들고, 그 중 몇 개는 고정되고 촉진되는 동안 그 대부분이 무기한으로 나른하게 하는 것이 아마도 형편없이 저급한 기사를 만들어 내고, 그리고 나서 그것이 일어난 AfD보다 더 나은 결과일 것이라고 생각한다.전번에내가 보기에 이것은 드래프트 스페이스의 목적인 것 같다.그가 관리인의 시야를 비춘 이후로, AfD의 문제는 헥터였다.그것은 어디서든 문제가 된다 - AfC의 논의는 이것을 암시하지만 증거가 있는가?또한 G13의 초안이 환불되어 불충분한 개선사항으로 재제출되는 횟수도 약간 문제가 있다. 예: 초안: 음방가 수프(토크 히스토리 링크 감시 로그 편집)가이(도움말!) 12시 13분, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- (WTAFC의 개입으로 인해 핑에서 나오는 것) - 나는 이 세 번의 스트라이크 비트를 믿지 않는다.그것은 다양한 이슈들을 위험에 빠뜨리고, 또한 옵션으로 "거부"가 매입된 기준에 어긋난다.그러나 나는 요율 제한을 제안할 것이다.주당(1주 또는 2주)이든 총액(5-10주)이든 크게 개의치 않지만 뭔가 조치가 필요하다.@Girth Summit: 다른 평론가의 입장에 대해서는 100% 확신할 수 없지만, 왜 그것이 우리와 대기열에 영향을 미치는지에 대한 나의 추리는 (그냥 무시당하는 것이 아니라) 우리가 강인한 전화를 그냥 무시할 수 없다는 것이다.기사 댓글이나 거절에 언급되지 않는 한 FA 비지명 초안은 여느 편집장과 똑같아 보여 그의 말을 그냥 무시할 수 없다.우리는 일반적으로 우리가 하지 않는 것이 더 낫다고 생각하는 명확하지 않은 초안을 그냥 무시할 수 없다. 왜냐하면 그것은 그들을 몰아낼 위험을 감수하면서 그들과 씨름하려는 소수의 사람들에게 점점 더 많은 노력을 기울이기 때문이다.FA의 큰 스파이크는 합리적인 것 이상으로 혼란스러운 반면, 몇몇은 괜찮다.코백베어 (토크) 12시 35분, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 코백베어, 안녕 - 그냥 좀 풀어달라고 부탁해도 될까? - '명확하지 않은 초안'이라는 게 무슨 뜻인지, 아니면 왜 선택적으로 무시하는 게 불가능한지 잘 모르겠어. (다른 사람들이 AfC 대기열에 어떻게 접근하는지 잘 모르겠어, 아마 그게 차이를 만들지도 몰라 - 나는 초안을 만든 사람과 당신에게 보여주는 New Page Feed를 사용한다.제목 아래)GirthSummit (blether) 12:53, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- @Girth Summit: "불확실" 초안은 "수락"인지 "수락/거부"인지 분명하지 않은 초안에 대한 나의 표현으로, 점점 더 깊은 고려가 필요하다.나는 NPF가 나에게 조금 불안하다고 생각한다(내 대본 중 일부와 잘 어울리지 않는다고 생각한다) 하지만, 특정 제출자의 초안을 피할 수 있게 해주는 것이 옳다 - 나는 보통 이 리스트를 (다양한 필터로) 노즈백베어 (토크) 13:01, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[ ]를 사용해 왔다
- 코백베어, 안녕 - 그냥 좀 풀어달라고 부탁해도 될까? - '명확하지 않은 초안'이라는 게 무슨 뜻인지, 아니면 왜 선택적으로 무시하는 게 불가능한지 잘 모르겠어. (다른 사람들이 AfC 대기열에 어떻게 접근하는지 잘 모르겠어, 아마 그게 차이를 만들지도 몰라 - 나는 초안을 만든 사람과 당신에게 보여주는 New Page Feed를 사용한다.제목 아래)GirthSummit (blether) 12:53, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 논평만: 이것은 조지 플로이드의 죽음 이후 AFC 과정에서 인종차별에 의문을 제기하며 제기된 짐보의 페이지에 있는 이 실(permalink)과 연결될 수 있다. --마샘 (t) 12:47, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 여기서 무엇을 암시하고 있는지 잘 모르겠다.AfCs는 FA에 대해 이 실마리를 찾기 훨씬 전에 우려를 표하고 있다.또한, 나는 다른 많은 평론가와 함께 아프리카계 미국인에 대한 커버리지가 부족하고 그 문제에 공감하고 있다는 데 동의한다.믿을 수 없을 정도로 질이 떨어지는 기사와 개선 없이 상습적으로 재입고하는 것만큼 피험자들의 문제점은 크지 않다.레이스 카드는 기본적인 청소만 하는 대신 정기적으로 당겨진다.AfC의 페이지 크리에이터들로부터 편견에 대한 비난은 많이 일어난다.나는 개인적으로 기본적으로 모든 것(흑인, 백인, 아시아인, 남성, 여성, 백파이프 밴드, 최근 뉴질랜드 포함)에 대한 편견을 가지고 있다는 비난을 받아왔다.그러나 이는 거의 전적으로 최소한의 수정도 하지 않고 파울로 울기를 원하는 신규 사용자로부터 나온다.— Urhuanboy가 추가한 사전 서명되지 않은 의견(토크 • 기여)
- 내가 WT에서 이미 쓴 글을 요약해 볼게.AFC: 플로리다아미는 흥미롭고 백과사전적인 주제에 대한 질 낮은 초안을 대량으로 작성하며, 그가 향상될 수 있도록 돕기 위한 모든 노력을 완강히 거부한다.아쉽지만, AfC에서 볼 수 있는 대부분의 쓰레기들, 즉 자신의 (또는 그들의 유급 고객들의) 회사, 밴드, 프로젝트, 혹은 자신을 홍보하는 사람들보다 낫다.그것이 우리가 규칙을 강화할 필요가 있는 부분이다. 명확하고 명백하게 WP인 편집자들을 맹비난하는 것이 아니다.여기서, 비록 그것들이 경계선 WP일지라도:CIR 케이스.— RoySmith(대화 • 기여) 09:44, 2020년 6월 2일(UTC)[
- (분쟁 편집) GirthSummit은 AfC의 자원봉사의 성격에 대해 타당성을 지적하지만, 같은 자원봉사자들은 플로리다를 필터링하지 않고 밀린 일을 하고 있을 뿐이다.육군의 출품작들이 시야에서 볼 수 있다.나는 선장의 의견에 동의한다.Eek의 3파업에 대한 제안은 그러나 나는 AfC가 더 넓은 지역사회의 합의 없이도 그것을 강요할 수 있다고 믿는다.나는 플로리다 때문에 이 문제가 ANI에 제기되어야 한다고 앞서 말한 바 있다.육군이 양면 초안을 작성하기 위해 주의를 기울이는 것은 WP를 위반하는 것이다.GAME, 내 생각에.나는 플로리다아미가 완전히 새로운 초안을 만드는 것을 허용하지 말아야 한다고 제안한다.우리는 의미 있는 기사를 만들 수 있는 훌륭한 편집자들이 있지만 플로리다아미는 이런 식으로 고집함으로써 다른 편집자들에게서 4개의 상을 강탈함으로써 인센티브를 약화시킨다.크리스 트라우트먼 (대화) 13:49, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 FA를 그 프로젝트에 대한 순 긍정적이라고 본다.그들이 만든 기사들 중 많은 것들은 별로 유명하지 않을 수도 있지만 전체적인 효과는 확실히 더 완전한 백과사전 중 하나이다.반면에, 그들이 사용하는 과정은 단점이 있다.하나의 선과 하나의 선원을 포함하는 초안을 작성하는 것은 AfC 검토자에 대한 공신력을 알아내는 책임을 전달하며, 이것은 그들의 삶을 더 힘들게 한다.아마도 FA가 거부된 기사를 재제출하는 것을 금지하는 것과 같은 것이 효과가 있을지 모른다.FA가 이 기사가 충분히 주목할 만하다고 판단한다면, 그 과정에서 작업할 수 있는 다른 사람을 참여시켜 재제출해야 할 것이다. --regentspark(댓글) 15:09, 2020년 6월 2일(UTC)[
- 리젠츠 파크, DYK에 도달하는 데 필요한 기준에 따라 제한을 두는 건 어떨까? 1500자는 전쟁과 평화일 뿐이지.가이(도움말!) 15:29, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나의 유일한 관심사는 그것이 FA가 전적으로 기여하는 것을 막을 수 있다는 것이다.나는 그들이 기사에 몇 줄 이상을 쓰는 것으로 보지 않는다.그러나 AfC는 한 두 라이너가 아닌 합리적으로 일관성 있는 기사를 평가하기 위해 고안된 것이기 때문에 그 부분에 대해서는 기꺼이 지지할 용의가 있다. --regentspark (토론) 16:36, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 리젠츠 파크, DYK에 도달하는 데 필요한 기준에 따라 제한을 두는 건 어떨까? 1500자는 전쟁과 평화일 뿐이지.가이(도움말!) 15:29, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 이 주제를 황보이에 올려줘서 고마워.이것은 내가 AfC에서 자원봉사를 하는 동안 내내 느꼈던 좌절이다.위키피디아는 WP가 아니기 때문에:SRSBSNS, 나는 크리스 트라우트맨이 언급했듯이 FA의 저급한 드래프트를 피함으로써 나 자신의 좌절감을 해소하려고 노력했다.불행하게도, 이것은 AfC의 기사의 밀린 작업만 계속된다.나는 RoySmith가 중요한 점을 지적한다고 생각한다.나의 불안에도 불구하고 FA는 주목할 만한 주제(특히 주급 정치인들을 중심으로)에 대한 항목을 추가하고 있지만, 두 문장은 기사가 만들지 않으며, 소싱이 매우 부족할 수 있다(그것은 FA만의 문제가 아니다).게다가, RoySmith가 언급했듯이, 이러한 프로토 스텁들이 메인 스페이스에 도착한 후에, 그들은 추가적인 일이나 변화 없이 그곳에서 나른해진다.메인 스페이스가 준비될 때까지, AfD가 이러한 초안을 "개발 지옥"에 보관해야 하는가, AfD가 이러한 기사에 대해 좀 더 구체적으로 다루어야 하는가, 아니면 원 편집자가 이미 받아들여진 기사를 더 발전시켜야 하는가?비신 (대화) 15:26, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 인종차별에 대한 로빙(근거 없는) 고발은 열심히 일하는 많은 편집자들에 대한 인신공격이지만, FA가 소싱 요구사항을 이해하지 못하거나, 그러한 인신공격에 대한 이해를 꺼리고, 그러한 인신공격에 대해 두 배로 강화하는 것은 내가 여기서 그들의 능력에 의문을 갖게 한다.특정 주제, 특히 유색인종에 대해 우리가 요구하는 커버리지가 부족하다는 주장이 있지만, 그것은 검토자들이 고칠 책임이 아니다.프락시디카에 (대화) 16:45, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 우리가 FA의 문제적이고 선동적인 행동에 대해 좀 더 폭넓은 논의를 할 필요가 있다고 생각한다.
유
아레이시스트
와 같은 논평은 절대적으로 부적절하고 노골적인 인신공격이다.
아마도 그의 AFC 편집에만 집중하는 것이 해결책은 아닐 것이다. 다른 편집자들에 대한 논평에 대한 분명한 제한은 일이 뜻대로 되지 않을 때 FA의 채무 불이행인 것처럼 보이기 때문에 멀리 갈 것이다.프락시디카에 (대화) 17:18, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[- 동의해. 그런 행동은 협력 프로젝트에서는 용납될 수 없어.그러한 성질의 포괄적 질식 주물은 블록과 일치해야 한다.LEPRICABAK (대화) 18:52, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 프락시디카에, 이 많은 것들이 혼돈의 벽으로 변한 것에서 사라지고 있다.헤더가 따로 필요하거나 ANI가 따로 필요할 수 있다.황보이 (토크) 07:13, 2020년 6월 3일 (UTC)[
- 완전히 분리하는 것은 어려울 수 있지만, 여기에는 두 가지 분명한 문제가 있다.하나는 플로리다의 질이다.육군의 초안.나는 이런 가식적인 재제출과 같은 파괴적인 행동과 그들이 어떤 건설적인 피드백을 받아들이기를 꺼리는 것을 포함한다.나는 그것에 대한 내 입장을 이미 충분히 커버했다.
- 인종차별에 대한 비난은 완전히 다른 것이다.(짐보의 토크페이지에서) 흑인 대상과 역사를 차별하는 등의 발언을 해도 괜찮다.나는 아무도 그것에 대해 논쟁하지 않을 것이라고 생각한다.좀 더 깊이 파고들면, 위키피디아가 실제로 그런 차별을 실천하고 있다는 암시가 있다.나도 그것에는 아무런 문제가 없다.나는 그것이 사실인지 확실치 않지만 프로젝트 전반에 걸친 편향에 대한 일반적인 진술로써의 비난에는 확실히 문제가 없다.
- 다음과 같은 문항목이 있다.너는 인종차별주의자야"라고 선을 넘어 부적절하게 된다.만약 그것이 왜 그렇게 많은 초안이 거절되는지에 대한 구실로 이용되고 있다면 그것은 특히 사실이다.확실히 당신이 특정한 사람들을 거짓말쟁이나 인종주의자라고 부를 때쯤에는 WP에 푹 빠진다.NPA 영역.ANI가 그러한 인신공격에 대해 어떤 식으로든 플로리다아미를 비난한다면, 나는 그것에 아무런 문제가 없을 것이다.--로이스미스 (토크) 13:28, 2020년 6월 3일 (UTC)[
- 이 일을 AfC에서 시작한 OP로서 나는 내가 더 많은 실례를 이전에 했더라면 좋았을 텐데.어제 나는 윌리엄 베벌리 내쉬의 FA 제출과 플로리다의 승인에 대해 작업했다.육군의 대답은 친절하고 감사하며 고무적인 것이었는데, 전에는 내가 눈치채지 못했으며, 마찰을 일으킨 제출물에 가려져 있었다.오늘 나는 정성적인 검사를 했다. (모든 검토자가 공지사항을 게시하거나 AFCH를 사용하지 않기 때문에 100% 정확하지는 않다) 그러나 이것은 AfC의 관점에서 우리 모두가 FA를 알고 있는 이유를 보여준다.그들은 대부분의 사람들보다 한두 배 정도 더 많은 평가를 받았지만 여전히 긍정적인 합격률을 보이고 있다.내가 생각하기에 플로리다아미는 그 프로젝트에 확실한 긍정적이다.모든 것을 보고 문제가 다른 POV에 의해 발생한다는 느낌을 받는다고 말했다.플로리다아미는 주목할 만한 단점을 만드는 것을 목표로 하고 있는 듯 한데, 이는 AfD에서 원래 이슈를 일으켰던 것과 동일한 행동이라고 생각한다.AfC측으로부터 우리는 IMHO가 아직도 너무 길고 새로운 편집자들에게 혐오감을 준다는 매일의 유입과 밀린 일들에 대해 고심하고 있다.같은 달에 걸쳐 166명의 검토자가 6,313건의 검토에 참여했지만 일부 검토자에 대한 가중치가 상당히 높았다.68건의 공개제출(현재 54건)을 받은 것과 별다른 변화나 논의 없이 재제출하는 것은 여전히 문제가 있고 플로리다아미나 평론가에 좋지 않다고 생각한다고 말했다.나는 사실 그 이슈들이 단지 FA에 대항하는 것이 아니라 세계적으로 다뤄질 필요가 있다고 믿는다.나는 현재 활동 중인 AfC 검토자의 수로는 그렇게 많은 공개 제출을 받아들일 수 없다고 생각한다; 나는 변경이나 토론을 거의 하지 않고 재제출하는 것은 받아들일 수 없다고 생각한다. 그리고 확실히 둘 이상의 검토자가 거절했을 때, 나는 개인적으로 단일 출처로는 충분하다고 생각하지 않는다.건배 KylieTastic (대화) 18:53, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 나는 우리가 여기에 있다고 생각한다. 왜냐하면 일반 AFC 검토자들은 그들이 무엇을 해야 하는지에 대한 개념이 지역사회가 그들에게 요청한 것과는 다르기 때문이다.나는 이것에 대해 AfC 검토자들을 비난하지 않는다.하지만 나는 특히 FA가 AfC로 제한되었던 이유와 함께 이러한 다른 개념들이 문제가 발생하는 곳이라고 생각한다.이 커뮤니티는 AfC에 AfD에서 살아남을 수 있는 기사들을 선별하고 UPE와 다른 형태의 COI 편집에 반대하는 기사들을 선별해 줄 것을 요청했다.AfC는 자신을 특정 기본 품질 기준에 부합하는 기사와 UPE 및 기타 형태의 COI 편집(COI/UPE는 분명히 FA의 경우가 아니므로 나머지 코멘트는 무시한다)에 대한 스크리닝으로 간주한다.그러나 AfD 참가자들은 전반적으로 잘못된 인용문, 나쁜 범주, 한 문장의 짧은 글 등 일부 AfC 검토자들을 괴롭히는 것에 대해서는 개의치 않는다.그리고 AFD 참가자들처럼 FA도 그런 것에 신경 쓰지 않는다는 것은 분명하다. 내 경험상 FA는 전체적으로 백과사전적 가치를 창출한다.내가 다른 방식으로 다시 말하겠다. 왜냐하면 중요한 포인트라고 생각하기 때문이다. 영어 위키피디아는 이전에 쓰여지지 않았던 주제들을 다루려는 FA의 시도에 의해 더 잘 만들어졌고, 그것은 꽤 많은 경우에 체계적이지 못한 표현의 예다.나는 FA가 그들의 언급에 더 신경을 쓴다면 정말 좋을 것이다.그리고 그들의 범주.그리고 그들이 하는 다른 일들은 많은 지놈들과 평론가들을 화나게 한다.나는 이 제한조치가 이렇게 오랫동안 시행되고 난 후에 FA가 더하거나 더 과감한 제재를 논의하기 보다는 우리가 제거하거나 완화시킬 수 있는 능력을 보여줄 수 있는 곳에 있기를 바랐을 것이다.그러나 FA가 AfC에서 문제를 덜 일으키는 한 가지 방법은 AfC 검토자들이 심사 대상을 확대하지 않고 AfD에서 살아남지 못할 가능성이 높은 기사가 있는지 커뮤니티가 판단한 것을 하는 것이다.만약 예스라면 그 기사를 승인하라.만약 정답이 없다면 거절해라.만약 예스라고 대답한다면 그것을 받아라.FA가 그들의 경기를 강화해야 하기 때문에 나는 아마도 아래 가이 제안을 지지할 것이다. 하지만 나도 또한 로이와 같이 FA의 수비를 위해 연설할 필요성을 느꼈다.Best, Barkeep49 (대화) 20:08, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- Barkeep49, 만약 당신이 AfC 검토자들이 노골적인 COI/UPE가 아닌 초안의 고무줄 역할을 하고 AfD와 메인스페이스가 나머지를 처리하도록 한다면, 나는 기꺼이 WP가 될 것이다.대담하게 진행 중인 백로그를 줄이려면 이 작업을 계속하십시오.문제가 생겼을 때 나를 본보기로 삼지 마.Bkissin (대화) 12:34, 2020년 6월 3일 (UTC)[
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그냥 궁금해서...산문 크기로 (숫자를 고르는) 제출을 자동으로 거부하거나 인용문이 없는 AfC용 프로그램을 만들면 어떨까?그렇게 되면 그 작품은 자신이 속해 있는 기사 작성자에게 다시 보내지고 밀린 업무는 상당 부분 제거될 것이다.AtsmeTalk📧 21:56, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 아츠미, 이걸 얼마든지 제안해봐.그 문제는 규모에 대한 공감대가 부족할 것이라고 생각한다.그럼에도 불구하고, FA의 초안은 인용구를 가지고 있다.그냥 일반적으로 충분히 좋은 것은 아니다.가이(도움말!) 23:34, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 아츠메, 나는 합법적으로 짧고 참조되지 않은 초안을 많이 보아왔다.사용자가 WP를 만든다.DAB 페이지를 초안으로 작성하십시오.나는 최근에 인도에서 1710호를 받아들였는데, 그것은 항해 도구로서 아무런 참고자료도 없이 그저 괜찮았을 것이다.초안으로 작성된 리디렉션도 보았는데(현재 예: 초안:모노수이트, WP만 있으면 돼IAR는 템플릿으로 그것을 되받아치는 것을 귀찮게 하지 않고 받아들였다.)--로이스미스(토크) 15:18, 2020년 6월 3일 (UTC)[
- 로이스미스는 계속 열심히 일해!내가 제안하는 것은 dabs, 목록, 범주, 템플릿, TP, 리디렉션 등과 같은 비기사 페이지에는 어떠한 영향도 미치지 않을 것이다. 2005년에 만들어진 오오이즈미 천문대 같은 기사만 있을 뿐 69단어 이상으로 확대되지 않았다.위키백과에서 제안했던 내용을 확인하십시오.새로운 페이지 순찰/검토자#AfC에 대한 잠재적 제안서. AfC는 제출 시점(저장)에 편집자에게 더 필요한 것을 저장하기 전에 알려주는 코딩이 약간 포함되어 있다.물론, 그것이 우리가 지금 연구하고 있는 것이고, 그것에 어떻게 접근하는 것이 최선일지 모르지만, 목표는 스터비 크리에이터가 실제로 더 좋은 스텁을 제출하도록 영감을 주는 교육 코딩을 디자인하는 것이다.우리가 AfC와 NPP에 엄청난 밀수를 가지고 있을 때, 우리는 우리에게 50단어의 비소싱 스텁의 형태로 들어오는 수천 개의 아이디어들을 필요로 하지 않는다.제출 수정은 양식을 작성할 때 받는 오류 메시지처럼 간단한 것일 수 있으며, 주소나 전화 번호를 포함하지 않거나, 잘못된 이메일 주소를 입력한 경우 등이 해당된다.나는 여기서 단순화하고 있지만 그것은 그 선에 따라 있다 - 아마도 JS나 루아 각본이 그것을 처리할 수 있을 것이다.나는 프로그래머는 아니지만, 내 제안을 검토하기 위해 몇 명을 소환했다.우리는 WMF로부터 큐레이션 도구를 가까스로 얻었으므로 희망컨대, 우리는 그들이 우리와 다시 함께 일하도록 고무시켜 밀린 업무량을 줄이도록 도울 수 있어서 실제로 CE와 업데이트를 위해 우리에게 요청하고 있는 수천 개의 기사를 확대하고 개선하는 데 집중할 수 있다.행복한 편집!Atsme Talk 〇 19:16, 2020년 6월 3일 (UTC)[
- 아래의 모든 제안에 답하지 않는다면 용서하십시오. 이 논평을 위한 가장 좋은 장소를 아는 것은 이 실정에 너무 많은 것이 있기 때문이다.그것은 AfC 검토자들이 그들의 권한을 초과하고 AfD에 거의 확실히 보관될 기사의 쇠퇴로 귀결된다.이것은 모두 위키피디아의 생명선인 콘텐츠를 실제로 만드는 사람들보다 다른 사람의 작품을 표시하는데 모든 시간을 할애하는 사람들이 우리의 드라마 페이지에서 더 많이 듣는 것처럼 보이는 더 큰 문제의 일부분이다.필 브리저 (대화) 19:23, 2020년 6월 4일 (UTC)[
- Phil Bridger, 만약 당신이 이것이 "AfC 검토자들이 그들의 권한을 초과했기 때문"이라고 믿는다면, 당신은 이 모든 문제를 해결하고 모든 사람들을 행복하게 만들 수 있는 위치에 있는 것이다!WT에 등록하십시오.AFP를 누른 후 템플릿으로 이동하십시오.AFC 통계/사용자의 보류 명령 및 모든 FA 조항을 수용한다. 이는 명백히 그렇지 않은 것이 "권한 초과"인 것처럼 보인다.당신은 FA를 매우 행복하게 할 것이고, AFC 평론가들은 매우 행복하게 할 것이다.그리고 BTW 우리는 "다른 사람의 작품을 표시하는 데 시간을 다 소비하지 않는다"고 말했다. 우리들 대부분은 초안을 받아들이고, 또한 AfC 밖에서 일할 수 있도록 초안을 연구하고 개선하는 데 많은 시간을 소비한다.우리들 중 다수는 FA 기사를 받아들이기 전에 FA 기사를 개선하는데 많은 시간을 보냈다.새로운 사용자들은 AfC를 사용할 수 밖에 없기 때문에 우리는 "실제로 생명선인 콘텐츠를 창조한다"는 이러한 기사들을 리뷰어들이 받아들일 필요가 있다.비록 나는 새로운 콘텐츠를 창조하는 것만이 "위키피아의 생명선"이라는 것에 동의하지 않지만, 지금 우리는 스팸, 홍보, 쓰레기, 비위생적인 콘텐츠들을 중단시키는 6백만 이상의 기사를 가지고 있다. 반달리즘은 새로운 콘텐츠만큼이나 중요하다.하지만 당신과 비슷한 생각을 가진 편집자라면 부디 AFC에 가입하여 가능한 한 많이 받아주십시오.우리는 가능한 한 많은 훌륭한 편집자들이 필요한데 가능한 한 많이 받아 들여야 하고, 밀린 업무량이 적을수록 제출 작업에 더 많은 시간을 할애해야 한다.카일리타스틱 (대화) 21:56, 2020년 6월 4일 (UTC)[
- KylieTastic - 더 나아가, 나는 FA의 승인된 초안들 중 일부는 다른 이들이 초안에 대해 많은 작업을 한 후에야 통과하여 표준으로 끌어올렸다는 것을 알게 되었다.나는 또한 우리가 받아들여진 초안과 거부된 초안을 분석하고 그 중 실제로 아프리카계 미국인의 전기적 비율이 어느 정도인지 확인해야 하는지도 궁금하다.나는 이것을 어디서부터 시작해야 할지 잘 모르겠다.데브 (대화) 15:59, 2020년 6월 9일 (UTC)[
프로포즈
반대 의견이다.— Wug·a·po·des 02:09, 2020년 6월 23일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
FloridaArmy는 AfC를 통해 제출된 새로운 기사는 WP에서 최소 길이 기준을 충족시키는 것을 목표로 삼아야 한다고 조언한다.DYK, 즉 1500자(인포박스, 범주, 참조, 목록 및 표 등)의 산문이며, 일반 공신력 지침에 따라 공신력을 확립할 수 있도록 신뢰할 수 있는 독립 출처를 충분히 포함해야 한다.플로리다아미는 제출 준비가 될 때까지 샌드박스에서 초안을 작성하도록 권장된다.
- 제안자로서의 지원.요컨대, 그들은 우리가 왜 관심을 가져야 하는가라는 간단한 질문에 대한 답을 확립해야 한다.가이 (도움말!) 15:39, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 훌륭한 아이디어를 지지하다.나는 포함시키는 것에 전적으로 찬성하지만 우선은 신속주의자다.크리스 트라우트먼 (대화) 16:20, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 이 시점에서 모든 제재에 반대하라. 눈에 보이는 것 이상의 것이 분명히 있기 때문이다. 플로리다 주초안에 대한 육군의 주장은 다음과 같다.Lee Myxter가 잘못 거절당한 것이 눈에 띄었고, 실제로 그것은 사용자에게는 완전히 부적절했다.Ahecht는 WP를 충족하지 못하는 것으로 제출을 거절했다.NPOL(도면:Lee Myxter), 그 가이드라인이
정치인들이...
라고 명시되어 있을 때......주/주
/주/주/전국적
인 공직에있거나 해당 직급에서 입법 기관의 구성원이었던 사람은 주목
할 만한 사람으로 간주된다. 이제, AfC의 검토는 힘들고, 때로는 감사하지 않을 수도 있지만, 그것은 말 그대로 중요한 주제들을 거부함으로써 스스로를 돕지 못하고 있다: 그것은 나쁜 감정을 조장할 뿐만 아니라, 다음 검토자의 작업에 추가된다. 요컨대, 비록 분명히 FA의 기사들이 항상 100% 완벽하지는 않지만, 누가 맨 처음에 있는가?—그들은 제안되고 있는 것만큼 가난하지는 않을 것 같다. 그리고 우리가 꽤 흑백의 자료를 보기 전까지는, 제재가 부적절하다고 생각한다. ——연속 # 16:30, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[ 실제로 데이터 마이닝의 정신에서 FA 토크 페이지는 올해 2월 10일(페이지의 마지막 1000개 편집) 이후 AfC를 통해 223건의 기사가 접수되고 231건이 거절되는 등 역사가 드러나고 있다. ———시리얼 # 16:48, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[- 시리얼 넘버 54129:세부사항을 살펴보셨지만,
- 상단
- NPOL은
대상과 독립된 신뢰
할 수 있는2차 출처에서 상당한 커버리지를 받은 사람이 주목
할 만한것으로 추정
된다는 것을 분명히 나타낸다.
- 당신이 메인 스페이스로 홍보할 때 이 스텁이 만나지 못했던 것.
- 나는 이 초안에 대한 당신의 판단에 의문을 제기하며, 당신이 그것을 초안 공간으로 되돌려 추가 작업을 할 것을 제안한다.
- 그리고, Serial은 자동으로 작동된다. 동의하지 않는 사람은 재조정을 요구하는 대신 AFD를 시도해야 한다.
- usedtobecool ▷인터뷰
17:- 26,
2020년 - 6월
2일 (UTC- )[
- 응답
- 그래서
완전히 비POINy적인 - 방법으로, 기사는 이제
- 삭제 될
- 위기
에 처했다 - —————
- 시리얼 #
17:- 44, 2020년 6월
2일 (- UTC)[
- 응답
- 어쩌면
- WP:
- BASIC, 그리고 NPOL을 포함하는 섹션의 상단에 따라:
1개 이상을 만난다고
해서 주제가 포함되어야 한다는 것을 보장하지
는 않는다. --Ahecht (TOKPAGE
) 17:56, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 반대한다. 만약 우리가 이 매개변수를 충족하지 못하는 기사에 대한 일반적인 사이트 전체의 제한을 원한다면, 하나를 갖자. 그러나 우리는 초안을 메인 스페이스로 옮기는데 필요한 것보다 더 많은 것을 다른 편집자에게 제공하도록 요구해서는 안 된다.BD2412 T 17:05, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
지원 완전히 합리적인 요구는 모든 우려의 표시를 때린다.중립, 두 번째 제안서 참조.황보이 (토크) 17:07, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[- 중립적으로 이것은 우리가 다른 AFC 제출을 위해 설정한 것보다 더 높은 바이다.루버릭은 항상 (적어도 내가 아는 한) "왜 초안이 AFD 논의에서 살아남을 확률은 적어도 50%가 되어야 한다"고 말했다.FA를 해당 표준으로 유지한다. WP:AFC는 "만약 같은 초안이 결함을 수정하지 않고 3번 제출된다면, 왜 메인 스페이스에 이 페이지가 존속하지 못하는지에 대한 기여 이유를 지적하면서 초안 스페이스/AFC의 목적을 지지하지 못해 MFD로 가져갈 수도 있다"는 비공식적인 관행이 있다.우리의 기준과 관행은 효과가 있다. 우리는 그것을 시행하기만 하면 된다.급서 (대화) 17시 15분, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 급서, 50%는 어디서 오는 거야?난 그런 말을 들어본 적이 없다.나는 AfD에서 방탄이 아닌 기사를 홍보해 본 적이 없고, 그런 적도 없고, 앞으로도 없을 것이다.AfD는 FA의 교정 도구로 이용되고 있는데, 기사 작성법을 가르치는 도구가 바로 그것이기 때문이다.그것의 표준이 AfD보다 높거나 높지 않다면 왜 그것을 가지고 있는가?여러분 중 많은 사람들이 놓치고 있는 것 같은 또 다른 것.AfC는 AfD가 아니다.글은 그 나름의 공적에 따라 승급한다.그 주제의 공신력은 무관하다.그 기사가 확실히 AFD를 통과하지 못한다면, 왜 그것을 홍보하는가? 토크)아이데곤 출신의 존(John)은 10:04, 2020년 6월 12일 ( )[응답
- 반대 AFC에게 주어진 유일한 목적은 왜 그것이 포함되기 전에 그것이 주목할 만하고 메인 스페이스에 있을 자격이 있는지를 확실히 증명하는 것이다.이것은 주목할 만한 주제에 대해 글을 쓰고 있을 수도 있지만, 왜 주제가 여기서 관례처럼 위키백과가 주목할 만한지 명확하게 설명하지 못하는 경험이 없는 사용자들에게 도움이 된다.SNG와 AFD에 익숙한 편집자의 경우, AFC 최소값은 SNG가 충족되는 문장 스텁(stubing)과 주장을 검증하는 하나의 소스 이상이어야 한다.드래프트 스페이스 기사는 그 네임스페이스에 상주한다는 이유로 자동적으로 제출되는 것이 아니기 때문에 샌드박스에 대한 요점은 말이 되지 않는다.usedtobecool ☎ 17:42, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- 위의 제 코멘트대로 반대하십시오. -- RoySmith (대화) 17:53, 2020년 6월 2일 (UTC)[
- Oppose There are no minimum length criteria requirements for any editor to create any content, so imposing an arbitrary length for one editor is overkill. There are plenty of worse articles being saved into the main article space every single hour. Examples include this and this. The latter being created by an editor who has been here for 15 years! Topic ban from AfC might be an option, but a better one would be for someone to mentor FA. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:58, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral as I think such a requirement is really only fair if applied to all, and clearly many articles are created in main-space that do not meet this reasonable condition. Make this a requirement for all and I 100% support KylieTastic (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - this would be significantly more onerous than required. Nosebagbear (talk) 19:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - Any reviewer who doesn't want to deal with these sub-stubs can decline them or ignore them. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - someone starting articles is a good thing, perhaps we should suggest that they request articles? I'm sure WiR would welcome any list of suggested articles of women. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:41, 4 June 2020 (UTC).
- Support - Since I was involved in the original problems that obliged FA to go through AfC for everything, I sympathise with those who have had to give attention to his sloppy submissions. It may seem like "starting articles is a good thing", but I don't think Rich can have had much to do with this user before if he feels it's good to encourage him to carry on in this vein. I feel like something needs to be done, and if it's not making him submit stubs of a reasonable standard (God knows he's had enough practice by now), then it's limiting the number of times he can submit and the number of AfCs he can open simultaneously. Any of these would help. Deb (talk) 16:15, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support Given the circumstances, these are not onerous conditions to impose on FloridaArmy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a collection of lengthy articles. Nearly all articles in traditional print encyclopedias are shorter than 1500 characters, so why should Wikipedia be any different? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Because we don't use printing on paper bound between cardboard covers, and are therefore not bound by physical limitations, except the amount of data our servers can hold, which is, for all practical purposes, infinite. Why would you want to be held back by a physical limitation which no longer applies to this format? I do note that a number of the articles you created came in over 1500 characters (one is over twice as large, and another more than 3 times 1500 characters), [98] so if you need help in reducing them to the ideal 1500 character limit, let me know. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is a reason why articles can be longer, not why they must be longer. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Arbitrary word-count minima are bad because they encourage padding and prolixity which is contrary to our summary style. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose, in some cases a short stub is better than nothing at all.--Hippeus (talk) 10:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Resolution
Here's a small sampling of articles created by User:Lugnuts today.
- Werner von Foerster
- Horacio Monti
- Lars Lundström
- François Chapot
- Martin Sharp (sailor)
- Frank Murdoch
- Franklin Woodroffe
Contrast these with the articles I'm having rejected:
- Draft:Frank Opperman (동음이의)
- Draft:Fred Hornby
- Draft:Jana Lund
- Draft:Lee Myxter, erroneously rejected today for not meeting Politician inclusion criteria.
There is a problem. Notable artice subjects I start are being blocked by editors not respecting our inclusion criteria in an improper amd abusive fashion.
All of these would survive as Snow Keeps at AfD. The solution is to remove the requirement I use AfC and to restore my ability to participate at AfD. The entries I create are better sourced and more notable than the vast majority of what's being added to Wikipedia. I comply with all of our editing rules. And the abusive obstruction, harassment, and interference with my good editing work needs to stop.
Every single entry discussed in this convo is notable and belongs in mainspace. It's a travesty that several editors want to obstuct the inclusion of additions on underrepresented subjects such as a traditional dish of Cameroonian cuisine or the military school that the long serving president of Suriname went to in the Netherlands, but improperly and unevenly applied rules should no longer be used to create problems for me or the AfC reviewers who should be able to return their focus to the spam and advertising that proliferate in their area of wikispace. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- FloridaArmy, Some people seem to think that Wikipedia is a directory of Olympians and that competing in the Olympics confers automatic notability. They have chosen not to change WP:NOT to support this but that's what they think. Guy(help!) 16:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- "but that's what they think" - Sounds very much like a threat/personal attack. Maybe you'd care to elaborate? Please be WP:CIVIL. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 16:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- How does that sound like a threat? A mild personal attack maybe, but there's no threat there at all. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- "but that's what they think" - Sounds very much like a threat/personal attack. Maybe you'd care to elaborate? Please be WP:CIVIL. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 16:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to reiterate my comment on the AFC page applauding FloridaArmy's good work on pages on our long list of drafts for missing state supreme court justices. Cheers! BD2412 T 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- @FloridaArmy: Please refer to "What about...." and WP:NOTTHEM. Your actions and behavior are at discussion here. Hasteur (talk) 17:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Although, of course, pointing out inconsistency of application is perfectly accepatble. ——Serial # 17:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Purely as an example, I can't see much wrong with the decision to turn down the draft at Frank Opperman (actor). This was a straightforward WP:GNG issue as articles have to be properly sourced.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- As is noted right at the top of that entry he clearly meets criteria 1 and 3 of WP:NACTOR. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- If I looked just at the article, how would I know that? NACTOR #1 - significant roles in multiple notable films. The second part, that's covered but the second part? It's not. If he was a co-star on any of those film, adding a text blurb would EASILY have helped demonstrate that. A list of films and roles doesn't help with that first part, a blurb that mentions those significant roles would make that check easy. NACTOR #3 is unique, prolific or innovative contributions - I'm guessing you're saying the length of his career covers prolific. Probably, but without any context on the roles they played, if they had lots of bit parts / background roles, I'd really question if that meets #3. Ravensfire (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- You would know because the article states per Motography that he "had a 29 year career on stage and a 7 year film career" as of 1916, lists 54 films he was in including his credited roles in most of them, and links to the existing Wikipedia articles for the vast majority of the films. FloridaArmy (talk)`
- You do realize uncredited roles don't count toward notability, right? As an example, more than half of the films you claim make him notable are uncredited. The Unchanging Seauncredited, The Hero of Little Italyuncredited, Fatty's New Roleuncredited, The House of Darknessuncredited and the list goes on. Unless there is some special N criteria for actors pre-1950, I fail to see how this fulfills at least "significant roles" Praxidicae (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I said "including his credited roles". So yes, I understand that credited roles matter. Of coutse we don't yet have article for most early silent films, so having credited roles in at least a couple dozen and uncredited roles in dozens more stil qualifies per our notability guidelines. The article would be a slam dunk keep at AFD. If you disagree try taking it there and prove me wrong. Good luck. You'll need it. FloridaArmy (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Good luck. You'll need it.
incendiary comments like this are unnecessary. Might I suggest you start actually reflecting on criticism instead of just being combative? Praxidicae (talk) 19:19, 2 June 2020 (UTC)- Frank Opperman looks like he would be suitable for an IMDb entry or similar, but the bar is set higher for biographies on Wikipedia. We don't get to know much about him beyond listing the films that he appeared in.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- If anyone wanted a preview of the hostility that AfC reviewers are regularly met with by FlordiaArmy here you go. This is actually pretty tame compared to some instances. Sulfurboy (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- "incendiary", "combative", "hostility"? Sorry, I'm not seeing it in the words that are there on the screen. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Andreas Philopater, according to FloridaArmy, those who do not accept his drafts are "bigots" and those who describe them as less than blindingly obviously notable are "liars". Guy (help!) 14:37, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- "incendiary", "combative", "hostility"? Sorry, I'm not seeing it in the words that are there on the screen. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I said "including his credited roles". So yes, I understand that credited roles matter. Of coutse we don't yet have article for most early silent films, so having credited roles in at least a couple dozen and uncredited roles in dozens more stil qualifies per our notability guidelines. The article would be a slam dunk keep at AFD. If you disagree try taking it there and prove me wrong. Good luck. You'll need it. FloridaArmy (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- You do realize uncredited roles don't count toward notability, right? As an example, more than half of the films you claim make him notable are uncredited. The Unchanging Seauncredited, The Hero of Little Italyuncredited, Fatty's New Roleuncredited, The House of Darknessuncredited and the list goes on. Unless there is some special N criteria for actors pre-1950, I fail to see how this fulfills at least "significant roles" Praxidicae (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- You would know because the article states per Motography that he "had a 29 year career on stage and a 7 year film career" as of 1916, lists 54 films he was in including his credited roles in most of them, and links to the existing Wikipedia articles for the vast majority of the films. FloridaArmy (talk)`
- If I looked just at the article, how would I know that? NACTOR #1 - significant roles in multiple notable films. The second part, that's covered but the second part? It's not. If he was a co-star on any of those film, adding a text blurb would EASILY have helped demonstrate that. A list of films and roles doesn't help with that first part, a blurb that mentions those significant roles would make that check easy. NACTOR #3 is unique, prolific or innovative contributions - I'm guessing you're saying the length of his career covers prolific. Probably, but without any context on the roles they played, if they had lots of bit parts / background roles, I'd really question if that meets #3. Ravensfire (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- As is noted right at the top of that entry he clearly meets criteria 1 and 3 of WP:NACTOR. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Purely as an example, I can't see much wrong with the decision to turn down the draft at Frank Opperman (actor). This was a straightforward WP:GNG issue as articles have to be properly sourced.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Although, of course, pointing out inconsistency of application is perfectly accepatble. ——Serial # 17:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Proposal #2
There is consensus for this proposal. In addition to their existing editing restriction, FloridaArmy is restricted to a maximum of 20 pending AfC requests at any given time. FloridaArmy may be sanctioned for violating their restriction should they have 21 pending submissions at AfC at any time. There is no discussion on how to implement this given the existing backlog. The two most obvious solutions are to either prohibit new submissions until the backlog gets below 20, or speedy decline the existing ones and have FloridaArmy renominate up to 20 that they want reviewed first. There may be other options, and local consensus should determine the best course of action. — Wug·a·po·des 03:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Limit the number of pending drafts by FA in AfC to 20.
Looks like there's some kickback from the suggestion of length requirements which I will be switching my vote to neutral to in light of this alternate proposal I'm going to suggest. To me, the simplest solution is to limit the amount of pending drafts FA can have in the AfC process. Pending defined as actively waiting for review, this would not include declined drafts that haven't been resubmitted.
The purpose is two fold: 1) To help lessen the strain on AfC reviewers. 2) To encourage FA to put additional work into the currently pending drafts. As a note, while the backlog says 5+ weeks, the vast majority of articles are reviewed in a matter of days, so it's not as if those 20 would languish for weeks. The ones that make it to the back are typically ones that would require insight from an SME or native language speaker, neither of which would apply to any FA articles that I've seen.
- Support As proposer. Sulfurboy (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- While this might help them from overwhelming the queue it won't solve any underlying issues with FA's articles that causes them to get declined in the first place. I am sympathetic to the idea of not overwhelming AfC but I would much rather try to nudge FA towards having a higher success rater than just limiting them. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I would absolutely endorse that approach. I would hope that persuading FlordiaArmy to move in the direction of writing longer, more detailed articles with more comprehensive sourcing would genuinely be positive for them and for us all. FloridaArmy would certainly see their article rejection rate decline dramatically and I would suspect they would also find their articles would be reviewed more quickly and with more enthusiasm by the AFC volunteers. We need to look after not only our content creators like FloridaArmy, but equally, we need to look after our AFC reviewers and frequent AfC users like FloridaArmy have an important role to play in that. Nick (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- While this might help them from overwhelming the queue it won't solve any underlying issues with FA's articles that causes them to get declined in the first place. I am sympathetic to the idea of not overwhelming AfC but I would much rather try to nudge FA towards having a higher success rater than just limiting them. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose - The reviewers can deal with a backlog by ignoring it. Too many drafts do not do any harm if ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Robert McClenon I think there is harm - letting the backlog grow and ignoring issues means new editors can have acceptable articles not get reviewed till they hit the end of the queue in weeks or months. Yes we catch most in the first couple of days, but if missed you wait and it's a huge discouragement too those editors. KylieTastic (talk) 08:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think this just moves the queue. Each time a draft is rejected or accepted, FA will simply move the next in. Now there's 20 articles in AFC and another 40 or 50 or whatever waiting to be in AFC. It also seems like it would be difficult to track, so you would need to get buyin from FA. --Izno (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's the point Izno is every time a slot gets freed up and they have 40 waiting a submitter will pick the most likely to be accepted, not just resubmit one that's been declined with not much change. KylieTastic (talk) 08:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- That doesn't follow. I expect the user won't care. If he does, it will simply end up the case that he cycles through his whole queue on his side until all he's got in the AFC queue are the "bad" ones. Then AFC still has 20 "bad" articles to deal with. It you want to make this rule and have it be effective, you limit him to one draft in AFC at any time. I'm still skeptical as to the utility. --Izno (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's the point Izno is every time a slot gets freed up and they have 40 waiting a submitter will pick the most likely to be accepted, not just resubmit one that's been declined with not much change. KylieTastic (talk) 08:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support but only if it applies to all submitters. It stops overwhelming AfC; It encourages submitters to put their best article through first; It encourages submitters to try to improve (better sources; clearer indication of the content that supports notability) before resubmitting a declined article. KylieTastic (talk) 21:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support as general restriction only. Everything more is just disruptive spam.Lurking shadow (talk) 13:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support Clearly, FloridaArmy can write decent articles; let him decide to focus his efforts on the twenty that might get accepted. There's no reason AfC's queue should be burdened. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support, but I'd prefer a lower limit - say 5-10. Deb (talk) 16:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support in conjunction with Proposal #1. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Even with this AfC restriction it appears as though half his drafts are making it through AfC. And the numbers are large. AfC reviewers that don't want to review his work can, well, just not. Yes, a lot of his drafts could be better. And they probably should be, but I don't see what this limit gains anyone. I do see how it hurts Wikipedia. Hobit (talk) 03:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support I was about to suggest 5-10, but 20 is also fine. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support If just because every time FloridaArmy has a draft rejected he posts about it on several WikiProject pages imploring someone fix it for him, and it would cut down on that junk, too. We like to help, and I have, but at this point it's pure spam. Kingsif (talk) 06:35, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose The bottleneck seems to be the reviewers who are imposing standards of their own. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support Whilst this is not necessarily an ideal solution, it would provide some for of respite to AfC reviewers. The main problem is the sheer volume of poorly drafted and referenced articles being submitted by FloridaArmy. After being on the receiving end of some of his harassment when I have refused to accept these AfCs I would support any efforts to focus his attention on the quality of his AfCs rather than the quantity. Dan arndt (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support. If this is burdersome on the creator, then convince us you can just skip AfC and submit normally. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus reply here 12:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support w/caveat - I'm of the mind that if FA is firmly held to creating only acceptable stubs rather than half-assed dictionary entries that are going to be deleted anyway, it will naturally limit his submissions because he will be putting more work into each stub instead of throwing stuff together hoping it will be accepted. If during the course of a month, FA makes than 3 submissions that go to AfD, a t-ban should be imposed for spamming WP. Atsme Talk 📧 13:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Strong support Even though I am not an AFC reviewer, I do think that it lessens the strain of AFC reviewers, reducing the number of articles they have to review. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 15:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Twenty is a reasonable number. I do think there should be a way forward so that FloridaArmy is allowed at some point, if enough of his articles consistently pass AfC, to create articles directly without AfC. But as long as FloridaArmy is restricted to creation via AfC, FloridaArmy should not flood the queue.--Hippeus (talk) 10:15, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Proposal #3
Consensus against. Based on this and the rest of the discussion, editors generally agree that regardless of his positives, there are issues at AfC that need addressed. — Wug·a·po·des 02:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Accept that FloridaArmy is what he is and move on.
- Support as proposer. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- oppose ,m because it's pissing people off. Wikipedia is not therapy, and obsessives doing the right thing in the wrong way cause drama. Guy (help!) 23:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose because blanket accusations of racism are not okay. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose FloridaArmy needs to accept two things here. Firstly, some of the articles for creation were turned down because of good faith WP:GNG decisions. They just weren't sourced properly and did not establish the subject's notability, which is a key requirement of GNG. Secondly, repeated accusations of racism amount to a failure to assume good faith. The users doing the articles for creation reviews are trying their best, and should not be accused of acting in bad faith without very clear evidence.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support I would rather have FloridaArmy contributing stubs than not contributing stubs. They are a net positive even if annoying. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support They did have a draft incorrectly declined immediately before this occurred, so I'm willing to WP:AGF. SportingFlyer T·C 07:42, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose because the current way of running is clearly causing FA as much stress/negativity as it is to the AfC reviewers. KylieTastic (talk) 08:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support as he is a net positive, but needs to avoid casting aspersions, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support Agree he is a net positive. I would also remove his AFC restriction because the problems with his articles aren't usually ones that AFC is well suited to deal with. (Bad formatting etc. should not be an AFC concern, and nuanced notability issues are better suited for AFD rather than a single AFC reviewer.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:35, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose per KylieTastic. I don't think AfC volunteers have to let FloridaArmy be a pain in the ass. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't agree that he's a net positive. Deb (talk) 16:18, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose There's enough of a issue here that closing our eyes and walking away is not useful. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Eh We should all try to improve ourselves and that includes communication on Wikipedia. FA needs to not throw around accusations of bias. That is something that really can't be put up with in the long term. And it would be nice if the shorter articles were better sourced. But it does feel like folks are a lot more upset about the AfC submissions than seems reasonable. Hobit (talk) 03:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support FA is not the problem. It is AfC which is dysfunctional. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose this is a significant ongoing issue and to allow it continue without some sort of action would effectively support his behaviour. The likelihood being that AfC reviewers would give up reviewing articles. If it wasn't an issue for AfC reviewers then it wouldn't have been reported here in the first place.Dan arndt (talk) 02:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - absolutely not - in essence, the stubs that go to AfD are no different from spam and should be treated that way, and so should the editor submitting the spam. Atsme Talk 📧 13:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose 1. He is not a "net positive". 2. When something goes wrong, don't leave it out; it may grow. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 23:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Proposal #4
Consensus against a schedule of escalating sanctions. Civility issues can always be addressed by our normal administrative processes. — Wug·a·po·des 02:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recognize that User:FloridaArmy presents two overlapping issues that should be dealt with separately. The first is the submission of low-quality stubs, a content issue. The second is civility violations and failures to assume good faith by reviewers, a conduct issue. Accept that sanctions will not deal with the content issue and move on. Issue a formal warning that conduct will require escalating blocks, 1 day, 2 days, 4 days, 1 week.
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Request Please provide examples of these supposed low quality stubs. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose This proposal is flawed. Guy has repeatedly lied about my conduct and comments, and I see he recently did so again. I do not create single sentence stubs and I absolutely continue improving LOTS of articles that are in mainspace, mine and others. Lying about my work is a civility violation and he's done so repeatedly. [User:JzG]]'s conduct should result in his being blocked.
- That there is bigotry on Wikipedia is obvious from the resistance to including subjects on African Americans, the African diaspora, and African American history. These are the EXACT article subjects identified as problematic. user:sulfurboy
hates these subjects so muchis so opposed to including these subjects he dragged one of them to AfD after another editor approved it. Oberlin Seminary was also high drama. What do all these subjects have in common? They involve African Americans. I know it's upsetting to have Wikipedia's bigotry and editor bias pointed out, but we must do better. Sanctioning those trying to address the situation is a step in the wrong direction and only proves to illustrate Wikipedia's hateful intolerance that excludes these subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)- @FloridaArmy: This would be a shame, but I'm going to short circuit this discussion by blocking you indefinitely if you say something along the lines of "user:sulfurboy hates these subjects so much he dragged one of them to AfD after another editor approved it. Oberlin Seminary was also high drama. What do all these subjects have in common? They involve Africam Americans" again. If you're making general comments that Wikipedia has a bigotry and institutional racism problem, I'd probably use different words, but would generally agree. If you're repeatedly singling out specific editors as racists with insufficient evidence (hint: no one is agreeing with you that they are racists) then you're going to be removed from the site. That would be a crazy result, but it's in your hands not mine. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right User:Floquenbeam, no one acknowledges racism. They just can't stand including subjects related to African Americans, the African American disapora, and Africa. I am clearly at fault for daring to create articles on these notable subjects and then objecting when they are excluded. I should just go along with excluding anything to do with Black people. My life would be so much easier on Wikipedia. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're putting words in my mouth, and this kind of passive aggressive statement is not going to be helpful. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right User:Floquenbeam, no one acknowledges racism. They just can't stand including subjects related to African Americans, the African American disapora, and Africa. I am clearly at fault for daring to create articles on these notable subjects and then objecting when they are excluded. I should just go along with excluding anything to do with Black people. My life would be so much easier on Wikipedia. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, Again? How many times do we have to be openly accused of racism and bigotry without a single shred of evidence? Everyone seems to be so hesitant about doing something that would discourage FA from editing further that direct personal attacks in an ANI are just getting a stern warning?
- If this was a new user they would have been immediately banned and this comment would have been removed. I shouldn't have my reputation dragged through the mud for zero reason.
- I challenge any person to show any instance that I've ever, in 60k some odd edits, ever, EVER showed even an inkling of prejudice or racism.
- I challenge you to find another editor that even remotely feels this way about me. I completely and 100% open myself up to WP:BOOMERANG, because I'm 100% positive you won't find anyone that agrees with Florida army that I'm a bigot or racist.
- Why does no one seem to be worried about the chilling effect this will have on the AfC process and how much it might turn off people from wanting to participate in it? I shouldn't have to worry about wanton personal attacks at every turn. Sulfurboy (talk) 17:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- While you may think that a final warning is too lenient, I don't understand why you think a final warning shows I'm not worried about this. If they've been given a final warning previously, talk to the admin who gave it and ask them to act. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, You're right, and I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me. My intent wasn't to attack your decision process. Just understand that it's incredibly frustrating to have my reputation sullied without merit. I think I'm just going to take a backseat to this whole thing since it's got me pretty clearly riled up. Cheers Sulfurboy (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- and you are 2% short of 60K edits. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 13:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, You're right, and I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me. My intent wasn't to attack your decision process. Just understand that it's incredibly frustrating to have my reputation sullied without merit. I think I'm just going to take a backseat to this whole thing since it's got me pretty clearly riled up. Cheers Sulfurboy (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- While you may think that a final warning is too lenient, I don't understand why you think a final warning shows I'm not worried about this. If they've been given a final warning previously, talk to the admin who gave it and ask them to act. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Suggestion - I suggest that an uninvolved administrator give User:FloridaArmy a one-week block so that other editors can address serious content and conduct issues without being distracted. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I would oppose such a block. It would play into the narrative of persecution, and I think we can get where we need to go without it. BD2412 T 19:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I would also oppose such a block, along with this proposal. SportingFlyer T·C 07:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support. I don't see why FA should be treated with kid gloves and allowed to get away with making personal attacks on other editors. Deb (talk) 16:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I do not think a cooling off block will be effective in this case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- (non Admin comment) Florida Army needs to stop treating themselves like a martyr for some holy cause. I've created dozens of articles on African subjects and a small handful on African American ones. I've never faced the issues they are experiencing, because I actually bother to source my contributions and can at least manage to spell things correctly. FA, stop chalking this up to people being racist. I'd much rather see you banned for such ill-advised comments than put up with that so we can get a few more African/African diaspora articles out of you. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:39, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose The tension and cross words seem to be arising because FA has been forced to submit to AfC but they don't get on. This sanction should be lifted so that FA submits his work to mainspace and the mercies of the NPP instead. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support w/caveat - if my other suggestions are ignored. Something has to be done. I doubt the editors who work AfD would like it if NPP started sending an overabundance of submissions their way. We already have numerous backlogs throughout WP that it is downright depressing. We certainly don't have an overbundance of reviewers, not to mention admins handling backlogged RfC closure requests. I'm of the mind that our PAGs are far too lenient as they apply to article submissions. It worked well when the pedia was just getting started but bad articles create bad press which eventually equates into a bad reputation for the pedia. We should at least try to avoid some of that or it will only get worse. Atsme Talk 📧 13:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
A Policy Issue
There is a policy issue that needs to be discussed, possibly at the Village Pump, having to do with people who pass a test for ipso facto notability, but about whom there is not enough information for a good stub. Most of the special notability guidelines for people are weasel-worded to say that people meeting the test are presumed notable. Both the political notability guidelines and the lengthy sports notability guidelines are worded in such a fashion. This ambiguity is sometimes hashed out twice for association football players, once at AFD and then again at Deletion Review. The stubs submitted by User:FloridaArmy are about people who are presumed notable. Some editors, including myself, prefer almost always to have the clarity of saying that a person who passes the threshold is notable. Other editors say that the presumption of notability only means that one should try to find the sources.
So there definitely is a policy reason for declining the stubs in question, some of which are corner cases. The fact that there is a policy issue is yet another reason why it is irresponsible to cast aspersions about racism.
Perhaps there should be a discussion at VPP. That would certainly be more useful than just yelling racism. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon, There's another issue. For somebody alive today, especially somebody with a paid PR agent, there's going to be tons of information available about them. Most of it will be crap, but there will usually be enough to get you past some silly SNG. Somebody who was, say, a struggling two-bit silent actor getting uncredited movie roles, isn't going to have the same collection of blog posts, on-line movie reviews, web sites, and all the other gigbytes of google-indexed ephemera they would have today. So, holding the two of them to the same standard is just absurd. -- RoySmith(talk) 00:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, User:RoySmith. I have more thoughts on the policy issue, but this is a conduct forum. (Meaning we can discuss at VPP or a WT page.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- There need to be fresh guidelines in this area, although the existing ones are already clear. The guidelines should make clear that sometimes African Americans or important academics may not have enough sourcing to meet WP:GNG, but that does not means that they are non-notable or that Wikipedia does not care about them. The mainstream media has also repeated this myth. Also, anyone who takes part in the AfC process should be told that if a request is turned down, WP:ASPERSIONS are unacceptable.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Ianmacm, RoySmith, and Robert McClenon: I have started a discussion at VPP related to the comments in this section. Mysterious Whisper (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- There need to be fresh guidelines in this area, although the existing ones are already clear. The guidelines should make clear that sometimes African Americans or important academics may not have enough sourcing to meet WP:GNG, but that does not means that they are non-notable or that Wikipedia does not care about them. The mainstream media has also repeated this myth. Also, anyone who takes part in the AfC process should be told that if a request is turned down, WP:ASPERSIONS are unacceptable.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, User:RoySmith. I have more thoughts on the policy issue, but this is a conduct forum. (Meaning we can discuss at VPP or a WT page.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
There's no admin issue here
Nobody is asking for a block. This is about how the AfC community wants to deal with a burdensome but valued editor. Why is it not being discussed there instead of at AN/I? Dicklyon (talk) 04:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- If there is an admin issue, it's a million characters ↑ thataway. I've lost track but it's more about stubs/article creation. I opened a discussion suggesting a potential workaround at Wikipedia_talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers#Potential proposal for AfC if anyone is interested. Atsme Talk 📧 16:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Another idea
FloridaArmy, you are advised and directed as follows.
Your behavior has been determined to be problematic, and you are directed as follows. An editor who has developed to the point of creating or submitting large amounts of articles should have learned certain things more than newbies on their first article. For newbies, other folks (such as those at AFC, NPP or AFD) don't mind doing some of their work for them such as seeing if the required coverage in sources exists. They also generally don't mind doing this if they see that the creator has invested substantial work in the article. Prior to creating or submitting any more articles, you are directed to read and learn wp:notability, understand that fulfilling wp:notability is a requirement for existence of a separate article, and also read and learn any listed special notability guideline that applies to an article that you are submitting or creating. As an editor who has reached the point of starting or submitting larger amounts of articles, you are directed to, prior to submitting or creating an article, establish for yourself which specific provision of the notability guidelines your article passes and the details of how it does so, and at least briefly describe this rationale in the talk page of the article. In general this will be either establishing that it has the required type and amount of coverage specified in wp:GNG or that it meets specific criteria in an applicable special notability guideline. If your article is rejected, held or challenged on wp:notability grounds and you wish to argue for passing or keeping it, the very first part of your argument is to specify which wp:notability provision you determined passed your article, and provide details which led you to that conclusion. Your argument for the existence of the article should NOT include making accusations against other editors or groups of editors such as being racists, having racial bias etc. Any other provisions remain in place.
North8000 (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- If this were a perfect world...I see the intentions here and they are excellent from a potential results viewpoint. But how does this get executed? Someone above suggested a mentor. Essentially that's also what you are suggesting here, simply because if FA were inclined to be that organized, he'd already be that organized. In order for that organization to occur, someone would have to monitor him. Can't see this very good faith proposal going anywhere. John from Idegon (talk) 10:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- I would suggest this if no other measure passes, in which case add in a "better than doing nothing" argument. But, it puts a finger on the actual problem and what it would take for FA to resolve it. By saying that debates about wp:notability on an article are to be based on wp:notability criteria, that could either influence FA toward debating along the proper lines, or give the other editors recourse there by pointing to FA having violated the direction given here. It says that trying to use accusations of racism as a tactic in debating wp:notability on a particular article is not allowed. It refutes any claim that restrictions on new articles are a double standard by clarifying that this is a standard / expectation for a prolific experienced editor. It points out why this case is an abuse of AFC folks, compared to accepting / handling it on the first 1-2 articles from a newbie. Finally, having been given firm guidance, it gives them a good chance to improve, and if they ignore it / blow it, sets the stage for another trip to ANI and a stronger action at that time. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:07, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think this is on the right path. The issue is that while FA does some pretty good work, we do expect someone who has been around as long as FA to get articles better on the first pass. The newbies are still learning, so teaching them seem like a good use of time. But it seems like a less good use of time to work with someone who seems set on not improving in a few dimensions. I say this as someone who thinks FA is a clear net positive to the project. We'd just like you to get your initial articles in better shape. They don't need to be amazing, but they should have sources that meet either the GNG or the article should otherwise meet the SNG. This isn't always clear cut, but it should be most of the time. Just continue to try to improve and take some people's comments on board that there is room for improvement. Hobit (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- In few words, FloridaArmy needs a mentor. (IMHO, FA is acting in good faith but just needs help writing articles that will get accepted.) Is any experienced editor available & willing to take on this duty? My own personal life prohibits me from reliabily filling this role. -- llywrch (talk) 19:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- The problem is they keep churning out shit like this. Some weird template thing, inappropriate bold print, a bare GBooks URL, and not a shred of a claim to notability. (It's funny/sad that the only claim to fame is they were prosperous...) Someone will slap that with A7, then someone will click on the link, then someone will do the actual work, and then at some point FloridaArmy, now all of a sudden interested in article improvement, will appear on the talk page to start complaining on what all is not in the article and what all is wrong with it (I nominated Joseph Crew for DYK and gave them co-credit for it; I regret doing that now). They've been here almost four years--and I'm avoiding them and their articles like the plague, which is a shame cause that Reconstruction era is wildly underdeveloped on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 20:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that's a fair representation. You posted this comment ten minutes after that article was created. I looked at their last six page creations, and they all start with a diff like the one you linked to, and then get expanded, and then approved at AFC. [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104]. The article you linked to seems to have followed the same pattern [105], albeit still pending at AFC. And there are editors who are autoconfirmed, and admin, who put out less-developed article than that -- one sentence ("So-and-so played for such-and-such a team") linked to a sports statistics database -- by the hundreds, and they don't go through AFC, and they don't get into any trouble for it. I don't get why FA is different. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 01:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- And it'll linger there a bit more unless FA indicates why some property owner would be notable in the first place, which is one of the first things we do when we write articles. How is that not incompetent? Whataboutism doesn't change that fact. I don't give a damn about those semi-automated articles with info pulled from databases, but at least you know they're on notable topics. What's interesting about this man, of course, is that he was a Black man who owned considerable property (and owned fourteen slaves...) at a time when that was worth noting--before the Civil War. And the DYK hook could be that he didn't just complain about being "subject to discrimination", but that he said his daughter might become the victim of police harassment. And if one puts that in the article, one doesn't just stave off A7, but also generates 10k hits on the main page ("DYK that Black American merchant Richard Edward Dereef said that harassment by white police against his daughter was a real threat--in 1860?"). But what we have now is an article on someone who's been mentioned in a newspaper--that's A7 territory, that's incompetence. Drmies (talk) 13:27, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that FA does things differently than I do. But generally the articles they create are notable, even if they start out with few refs. One of the problems here is systemic: Levivich notes correctly that editors are forever creating one-liners about a notable person. Why do they do that? Because other editors aggressively remove notables from lists that clearly meet notability guidelines, but don't have an article. That aside, I occasionally look through FAs drafts for articles of interest and add to them. That's not "mentorship", but I wish more of us would try "help mode" rather than "exterminate" mode. Jacona (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
If ANI would come to a decision something like the beginning of this subsection plus saying that they must have a mentor, (so that there is a framework to work from, not just he beginnings of a new debate) then I would be OK with mentoring them. North8000 (talk) 19:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've been noticing improvement lately. I also like to edit a sentence or two at a time, so I have a certain sympathy. It's leaving them that way for longperiods that has been the problem, but draft does specifically allow for 6 months. DGG ( talk ) 23:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Possible Violation ?
Has the topic-ban on User:FloridaArmy creating new articles been lifted due to a resolution, or is it still in effect? If, as I think, it is still in effect, I think that FloridaArmy just violated the topic-ban, probably by accident. See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Tetragonotheca_helianthoides&oldid=963045390 . It was promptly draftified by User:Nightenbelle with the usual note, "Undersourced, incubate in draft space". Well, it wasn't undersourced, but it was a, probably accidental, topic-ban violation. If my understanding is correct, I will tweak it before letting the plant volunteers do their stuff. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I though it was that they needed to go through AFC; I.E couldn't place articles directly in article space. North8000 (talk) 16:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't edit the reason I draftified it- which is my fault and I appologize. I draftified it because the first line showed it was an obvious WIP and because it had a notice that said it was still waiting AfC acceptance and creating the page was probably an accident. When I saw those, I didn't even go beyond in my new page checklist to see if there were other problems (like a topic banned creator). I'm sorry. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Editing restrictions are listed at WP:RESTRICTIONS. Yes, FloridaArmy's ban is still in effect. If this was their only infraction, and there's reason to believe it was accidental, I'd strongly suggest not freaking out about it. -- RoySmith(talk) 17:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. No apology required. It is as I thought. I have accepted it into article space because I have confidence that the volunteers at WikiProject Plants can do a better job on the Work In Progress than either I or FloridaArmy. It is a species, and I will accept a species with one source as documenting the scope of human knowledge. There are a few million species, and one species that can count other species. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- There's a norm of loosening wp:notability for plant and animal types though it stops short of categorically doing so for all down at the species level....as you noted there are millions of them. Also getting into the few exception type areas with this particular editor could complicate things. North8000 (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. No apology required. It is as I thought. I have accepted it into article space because I have confidence that the volunteers at WikiProject Plants can do a better job on the Work In Progress than either I or FloridaArmy. It is a species, and I will accept a species with one source as documenting the scope of human knowledge. There are a few million species, and one species that can count other species. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Editing restrictions are listed at WP:RESTRICTIONS. Yes, FloridaArmy's ban is still in effect. If this was their only infraction, and there's reason to believe it was accidental, I'd strongly suggest not freaking out about it. -- RoySmith(talk) 17:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't edit the reason I draftified it- which is my fault and I appologize. I draftified it because the first line showed it was an obvious WIP and because it had a notice that said it was still waiting AfC acceptance and creating the page was probably an accident. When I saw those, I didn't even go beyond in my new page checklist to see if there were other problems (like a topic banned creator). I'm sorry. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Here is another one. Unless I am reading the article histories wrong, there are also a fewinstances of creating short articles and then turning them into redirects, so that you end up with a stub hidden behind a redirect. This one was in draft, then FA published it an hour later, removed the content and redirected it. To be fair the intention seems to be creating a redirect, not an article.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- ThatMontrealIP, https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/45926 will give you the full list of his mainspace creations, more or less. The "more or less" qualifier is because I'm depending on the edit comment to filter out redirects, and that's not always reliable.
- I spot checked a few of these. Most of them look like accidents, quickly followed up by moving the page to draft space. Some of them are WP:DAB pages. And, of course, some are redirects. The ban says, "articles". DABs and redirects aren't articles. So, my take on this is he's following the spirit of the ban and we should leave it at that. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- If this ban stands, then FloridaArmy appears to be gaming the system or conducting some kind of breaching experiment (e.g. [106], created in maonspace, then moved to Draft; ditto here and here, where it was Draftified by another user). This is not cool. These creations include biographies, not just plants Guy (help!) 19:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
New IP rangeblock evasion from old troll
Can we get a rangeblock to stop an old vandal from continuing with new disruption? He was rangeblocked as Special:Contributions/81.141.154.0/24 for six months but has shifted to using a bunch of London IPs, a portion of which I've listed below. In some cases his disruptive talk page comments have been revdeled[107][108] This person is an incorrigible troll. Binksternet (talk) 17:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- This is 86.187.128.0/17, and there's a significant amoutn of collateral here. The other issue is that they're BT IPs; they never stay on the same range for massive lengths of time anyway. I have however removed the range from the Thunberg article for a significant time. Black Kite (talk) 22:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tailored rangeblock; it will keep this vandal from his most pressing desire for a while. Binksternet (talk) 02:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- This is 86.187.128.0/17, and there's a significant amoutn of collateral here. The other issue is that they're BT IPs; they never stay on the same range for massive lengths of time anyway. I have however removed the range from the Thunberg article for a significant time. Black Kite (talk) 22:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Range block one ip and they switch to another. It's as easy as going into router firmware on some others. Plus doing anything larger than a /22 on a dynamic IP is a terrible idea Muhammad jahiib punjit (talk) 02:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)(contribs)
User: Matthewmorrison34
Accused blocked per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Weathertrustchannel. --Bison X (talk) 06:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
You can end this notice. The user is an confirmed sockpuppet of another user who has been using hundreds of different accounts/IPs to vandalize Wikipedia, he's permanently banned. You can archive this, no action is further needed. --TechnicianGB (talk) 05:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Matthewmorrison34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User Matthewmorrison34 insists in deleting data backed up by sources, vandalizing pages with anonymous IPs (I have initiated a sockpuppet investigation for this, but it's clear it's the same user = same edits) and modifying another pages without factual sources, even after being warned. He is now engaged in an edit war in the page Alicante and he's also breaking Wikipedia:No personal attacks personally attacking me and making false claims about me in the page User talk:Subtropical-man because another user noticed he is the same sockpuppet and I replied today saying it's clear he is looking at the edits he's making, because of that this user started attacking in that same talk page. Nevertheless this is not the first time he's getting a warning, but today this went further beyond.
Affected edits:
Today: [109] [110] [111] [112]
Previously, obvious vandalism, modifying climate pages with fake data and no sources, he has been warned before:
Other users were reverting his changes but he was putting them again, even if they're fake and invented. This was done during 4 following times:
Same again in another page, twice in the case of this page:
He has been warned previously for these edits in other pages but it seems he doesn't care at all. [128] I have warned himself in the page of Alicante but still didn't care. An anonymous IP that has been editing that page said the same as this user did (that's why I have made the investigation Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Matthewmorrison34) as well as another IPs have been doing the same disruptive edits, mostly modifying Italian cities with fake climate data, either without any source or either using broken sources. --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- All these diffs show is an editor removing a blatantly unreliable source that you're edit-warring to add. (It even says "Not the official airport website" right at the bottom.) You mention warning Matthewmorrison34 but that's only in edit summaries. There's no discussion at Talk:Alicante, which per WP:BRD is where you should have gone after the original revert. You left a single warning at User talk:Matthewmorrison34 and then started this ANI before Matthewmorrison34 had edited again. Of course, Matthewmorrison34 certainly could be a sockpuppet but neither of you look good here. Woodroar (talk) 00:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Woodroar: That text was there from a long time ago, it's just that this user, but using an IP and not his account, deleted it, I have inserted a source to back it up, the source is not official, obviously, but it's neither a very unreliable one since it offers a lot of real data and it even has a contact form. The edit war started to delete this text, as it was here from a long time ago, I just inserted the source to prove it's not something I have invented by myself.
Nevertheless I have made the ANI more because this user is a sockpuppet. For example, the edit [129] proves it: [130] 2 different days, an user and an IP but writing quite almost the same with the same writing style, the same that it's happening with very similar IPs and the same user in other climate pages. --TechnicianGB (talk) 00:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- See WP:LOGOUT. There is no policy against editing while logged out, unless it's done to mislead—for example, by pretending to be two users in a discussion. That doesn't appear to be the case here. Woodroar (talk) 00:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dear all, as I let you investigate the issue, I would like to invite you to notice how I just removed a claim which is INCORRECT and how User:TechnicianGB was the one vandalising the page, as before today he always reverted the edits keeping that claim WITHOUT a source, and how his source today is completely UNOFFICIAL. Contrarily, I not only removed the claim as it does NOT have ANY valid source, but have also backed my arguments with concrete data from the two cities, as you can see in the edit history of Alicante, which completely proves that. Furthermore, I specified on (talk) that the climate chart of Alicante does not match the AEMET source that is cited in the page. Yet, User:TechnicianGB is still accusing ME of being the vandal, thus also breaking Wikipedia:No personal attacks, as he is personally attacking me through claims that are SEEN to be false. Matthewmorrison34 (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC)User:Matthewmorrison34
- @Matthewmorrison34: I agree that TechnicianGB should never have made the claim of vandalism since this is clearly a content dispute with both sites mostly acting in good faith, so the false accusation of vandalism is a personal attack. Which begs the question, since you knew all that, why did you come to ANI and make a personal attack of your own by also false accusing TechnicianGB of vandalism? Two wrongs don't make a right. Nil Einne (talk) 01:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) If there is a dispute over the reliability of the source, this should be solved via discussion not edit warring nor ANI. Some WP:content dispute mechanism could be used such as WP:RSN. However I suggest you re-read WP:RS and seek general feedback first since "serious source" and "has a contact form" are definitely not going to cut it and "offers a lot of real data" isn't much help either. Instead issues like who has editorial oversight for that source matter. As for the IP stuff, while editing the same article both logged out and logged in does create a risk of confusion, IMO a better solution rather than opening that CU case which seems pointless would have been to ask the editor to only edit from their account when editing those same articles (or on the same issues) to reduce such confusion. Nil Einne (talk) 01:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: I used the word vandalism as this is what he led me to believe he was doing through his actions of continuously putting back a false claim. However, I thank you for your indications regarding how this conflict should be solved via discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewmorrison34 (talk • contribs) 01:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Matthewmorrison34: According to TechnicianGB, you are the one who keeps adding false information. Clearly you both disagree on which information is correct, and which sources support what information. That's why WP:Vandalism is clear that the editor needs to be intentionally inserting information they know to be false (or some other situations), rather than just one side says they are. Frankly, if I were an admin, I would be tempted to block the the next one to accuse the other side of vandalism As it is, from my PoV, you've destroyed any sympathy I had for you by coming to ANI and demonstrating you are no better than TechnicianGB. Falsely accusing the other side helps no one, it doesn't make people more sympathetic to your PoV. It's just lame. Nil Einne (talk) 01:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: I do regret what has happened, but from my point of view TechnicianGB was intentionally putting that claim back over and over again even if he KNEW that it's untrue (again, until today he did not have a source and did not seem to respond to anyone's argument), so that is why I reacted by accusing him of vandalism as well. Also, him accusing me in ANI definitely did not help my sympathy towards him and on the contrary alarmed me on his intentions. That being said, I apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your indications on how to proceed from now on.
- @Matthewmorrison34: According to TechnicianGB, you are the one who keeps adding false information. Clearly you both disagree on which information is correct, and which sources support what information. That's why WP:Vandalism is clear that the editor needs to be intentionally inserting information they know to be false (or some other situations), rather than just one side says they are. Frankly, if I were an admin, I would be tempted to block the the next one to accuse the other side of vandalism As it is, from my PoV, you've destroyed any sympathy I had for you by coming to ANI and demonstrating you are no better than TechnicianGB. Falsely accusing the other side helps no one, it doesn't make people more sympathetic to your PoV. It's just lame. Nil Einne (talk) 01:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: I used the word vandalism as this is what he led me to believe he was doing through his actions of continuously putting back a false claim. However, I thank you for your indications regarding how this conflict should be solved via discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewmorrison34 (talk • contribs) 01:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Matthewmorrison34: you deleted something that's been there since November 2016 without even trying to do nothing at Talk:Alicante but further beyond than that, you're even ignoring the official sources. Check the first source of Alicante and see the weather box, the temps are the same, you are mistaking again (on purpose) with the data of Elche-Alicante airport. You ignored this again and again and again. Like it or not, the official AEMET average shows Alicante (1981-2010) having an average of 17.0ºC in January.[1]
You started your personal attacks against me, even before I didn't say anything to you: [131] and this is what you wrote after: [132] [133] I have proven as well your disruptive edits in your sockpuppet investigation. You're using way too unreliable sources to make climate boxes for Italian cities, and if anyone deletes them, you put them again with your account or with any static IP just as proven on another pages (it's all in your investigation) quite the irony that you delete a single phrase you don't like but you put fake climate data using laugheable sources. You accused me to vandalize climate pages but you weren't able to show the proof, but I shown the proof that you vandalize Italian climate pages to make them look much warmer than they are, in fact. Either by using non-reliable sources or either by using 0 sources.
What is clear is that, you started an edit war, deleting something that was there for years, even after putting a source you ignored it, you started personal attacks and I told you to prove what you say and you didn't because you can't, you made it something personal, I investigated your contributions and I saw you are suspicious for sockpuppetry as well, so I reported you with a strong reason. And now you play the victim and you say I am attacking you while you are the only one doing it, as well as using sockpuppets and making edit wars. --TechnicianGB (talk) 01:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
References
@TechnicianGB: Your arguments are always less solid, as again, I removed a claim that was there since 2016 for the simple reason that it is a FALSE claim that was not backed-up by ANY source. As seen in the edit history, you reverted such edits even when you still DID NOT HAVE a source. Now you put a source that is from an UNOFFICIAL AIRPORT WEBSITE, and ignore the actual DATA that dismantles the claim. That source does not at all stand to actual official data. These are hence disruptive edits combined with personal attacks. Matthewmorrison34 (talk) 01:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)User:Matthewmorrison34 @Matthewmorrison34: I shown where you started with personal attacks against me, you shown 0 as I didn't attack you in any moment. I only said you vandalized some pages (not this one of Alicante, the ones where you used invented data, as other people already told you in your profile) You lied saying the Alicante climate box i'm using is false but it's using the official AEMET source of Alicante, I shown it here and I invite everyone to check it up, that dismantles your only argument. The "unofficial airport website" just says these things you have deleted, as for the climate box or temperatures there is already an official source. Your sockpuppet asked for a source and I inserted it but you deleted it as well. Which are your arguments exactly?
- @TechnicianGB: Please stop falsely accusing Matthewmorrison34 of vandalism as that is a personal attack. As I said above, there is no apparent vandalism here from either side, instead we have good faith editing i.e. a content dispute. I don't really give a damn who started the "personal attacks". Both of you need to stop the personal attacks rather than defending it based on the fact the other party also made a personal attack. I don't know your age but we expected maturity from editors whatever their age not lame "he started it" type reasons for continuing poor behaviour. BTW, can both of you learn to indent better as this discussion is getting very confusing given the poor indentation. Nil Einne (talk)
@Nil Einne: Sorry, I didn't know that was considered as a personal attack. I was referring to what this user wrote about me in that talk page mentioned above. You are right, I didn't have to reply again to let administrators investigate it, it's what you say, this could have been discussed instead of keep deleting it and making an edit war as this user has done. I am here to report this behavior, instead of trying to discuss things he preferred to start a war and to personally attack me in another user's talkpage. I didn't even count the "vandalism accusations" as a personal attack, why I called him a vandal is not for what he wrote today.
Here you can see what I am talking about. I did this report not only for what he did today (that was the edit war I also reported where it belongs) but for his actions, this user is a vandal. Let me show you:
He is modifying climate pages with fake data and no sources. Just to make them look colder/warmer or whatever his reasons are, as well as making fake climate boxes and using sockpuppets in Italian cities. That's why I opened a sockpuppet investigation. --TechnicianGB (talk) 01:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @TechnicianGB: I looked at the first edit. What i see is an editor who tried to add a source, and change the information so it reflected that source. Now the source may not be a good source, so potentially the info shouldn't have been changed. But it still appears to a be a change made in good faith. So please explain to me why you are claiming it WP:Vandalism. If you are unable to explain why an edit apparently made in good faith is vandalism, please withdraw your false accusation. I did not look at the other 2 edits since your first example was already a complete failure. Nil Einne (talk) 01:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: and changing an official source with a non-reliable one is not vandalism? Anyways, you can check the other examples. Completely made-up data with no source. Not even as in the first case. In the case of Brusells he even insisted in putting the same data even after it was deleted several times by various users. --TechnicianGB (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: here you have this user inserting fake data without sources. [137] [138] [139] [140] [141] until here.
Then you have another users reverting his changes and he's putting them again, even if they're fake and invented. This was done during 4 following times:
Same again in another page:
Are these enough evidences now? Just in Madrid he inserted a non-reliable source but that was deleted, ok, nevermind. But what about Brussels and Athens were 0 sources were inserted and he reverted 6 times the fake data after others reverted it because of that, as it's made-up data? As you can see i'm not very far saying he's vandalizing the Wikipedia. At least he did in these 2 articles, and these were recent changes, prior to the edit war from today. --TechnicianGB (talk) 02:12, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- In ones such as Madrid's I DID source the data with for example climate-data.org, until someone notified me that the existing sources were more accurate. I firstly didn't know that as I was new to wikipedia and saw climate-data.org as a source on some other pages. Same goes for Brussels etc, I was new to wikipedia and did not master it. Once I knew that, as you can see on my talk page, I thanked who told me that and stopped doing that, which to your surprise means problem solved. Now, I invite you to follow Nill Ennie's indications demanding to stop discussing this here and do so via discussion. This is because as in the beginning, you are not following the right procedure: you did not initiate any discussion at Talk:Alicante, which per WP:BRD is where you should have gone after the original revert, and you left a single warning at my User talk:Matthewmorrison34 and then started this ANI before I had edited again. I hence kindly ask you to stop this behaviour of personal attacks and instead follow the right indications. Matthewmorrison34 (talk) 02:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)User:Matthewmorrison34
- No it's not. It's a WP:content dispute. Official sources, whatever you mean by that, do not always have priority on wikipedia and even if they did, it would still be a content dispute. An editor being wrong about the acceptability of a source doesn't turn a good faith edit into vandalism. The editor needs to be intentionally trying to harm wikipedia (or some other limited situations) which doesn't apply when they think they are improving the article, even if they are mistaken. Let's also remember this thread started off with you defending a source because it had an "email contact" etc, so frankly I'm not sure if we should trust your assessment of sources. (I do think the the Spanish meteorological agency is likely to be a far better source for Spanish historical weather information than climate-date.org, but ultimately we don't deal with content disputes here anyway.) I'm not going to bother to looking into your other claims, since I've tried to explain so many times to you that a good faith edit or content dispute is not vandalism, and likewise wikilinked the WP:Vandalism page many times, but you're still not getting it. I will repeat what I said one more time. If you don't want to get blocked, please stop making false accusations of vandalism. If you don't understand what vandalism is, then just don't use the word. Even for genuine vandalism it's often unnecessary to call it that. Frankly this whole dispute is an utter mess. There are claims of a link between 2 accounts but the SPI only dealt with 2 IPs and one account. There is apparent outing. And now after ~3 times we're still discussing the definition of vandalism. Nil Einne (talk) 02:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: I understand your point, that word shouldn't be used unless if it's very obvious. Got it. I have checked what you sent me and I agree with the definition. But did you check what I shown you in my last edition? Not the changes in Madrid (that was a content dispute which was deleted) but the ones in Brussels and Athens where fake data was willfully inserted without any kind of source. Aren't those disruptive edits? You could check them as these have 0 sources, they aren't good faith ones.
About the outing I don't know nothing about. I have heard as well that another users suspect of 2 additional accounts, but I don't think they're the same. The Madrid edition was an example, that's not a bad edit at all (understood, that wasn't anything bad at all) but the other ones that really included fake data and this user arrived to revert 4 times other users that were deleting that made up data. I left the links above, you can see about what i'm talking about. --TechnicianGB (talk) 02:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Composemi and redirects
Check out User talk:Composemi and you will see a wall of RfD notifications for questionable redirects created by User:Composemi. They are still creating useless or near-useless redirects (such as Harvard BS, Saint Floyd, Sachin 10dulkar, etc.), and has thus made it clear that they do not intend to change this behavior. I propose a 4-month topic ban on creating redirects. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 06:01, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Good idea
Thanks, (talk) 07:39, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely - with clear conditions for unblock, ie a topic ban from redirects and showing that they can and will edit constructively and communicate with others. Their failure to respond to talk page notices and to communicate is really not acceptable. Doug Wellertalk 11:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I was about to oppose the block and propose a looser, 1-month topic ban instead, but seeing their attack page (now deleted) and communication issues, I now fully agree with the block and indefinite topic ban when unblocked. Pandakekok9 (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I recommend changing the block from indefinite to up to 3 months, then see from there if he learned his lesson. And of course the topic ban until he has proven himself. OcelotCreeper (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, agree with the block and unblock conditions. Some of those titles are seriously inappropriate, this user needs a good hard think about whether they are in the right place. Guy (help!) 08:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
User:MetallicBox, which appears to be a troll/vandalism-only account
Blocked., N.J.A. talk 11:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The title pretty much speaks for itself. Rather than posting specific diffs, I advise editors and reviewing administrators to look at a few of the edits (any that you choose) on their recent contributions page. The editor appears to be a pro-Trump POV troll, adding nonsensical claims that are never sourced, including to the point of claiming “this is why Trump (did/will) win in a landslide in the 2020 election”. I’m fairly sure this is just someone seeking to a provocateur and a troll, as most of what they say doesn’t even make sense, and is posted across multiple articles with little variation. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 07:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Nevermind, this post is moot as when I went to post the ANI notification, I noticed that they had been blocked indefinitely while I filed the report. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 07:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Abuse by users Melody Concerto and Jimfbleak (WP:ADMINSHOP and several other violations)
IP editor has made their feelings clear & chosen to leave the site. No consensus for any further action against the involved parties. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I had reported User:Melody Concerto to WP:ANEW for breaking 3RR in Sands Atlantic City in addition to start an edit war on my talk page. [154][155]. Melody had performed four reverts in the span of 10 minutes for a reason that wasn’t a WP:3RRNO exception.[156] As a retaliation for opening a ANEW case, Melody reported me to WP:AIV even though our issue had nothing to do with vandalism.[157] In her phony AIV report, Melody also claimed to have given me a final warning when in fact it was a Level 2. After I replied to her AIV report,[158] she went to User:Materialscientist.[159] I replied there as well that Melody was trying to get me blocked because of my ANEW report. [160] Melody then went to User:Jimfbleak who rapidly blocked me before I could defend myself with one of the most dubious responses I have ever seen from an administrator. [161] Jimfbleak also indefinitely protected Sands Atlantic City despite that I wasn’t even editing the article anymore with the page having no previous protection history. [162] In a desperate part on Melody’s part, she also unsuccessfully attempted to get Jimbreak interfering with my ANEW report. [163]
This incident is just another one example on this site on how registered users develop cliques among each other and how unregistered are treated as second class editors . Melody and Jimbreak obviously have interacted in the past and developed some sort of relation between each other on this site which led to this kind of abuse. There’s no reason why Melody wasn’t blocked as her actions was a classic case of 3RR violation. And Jimbreak’s actions are even more concerning because as an administrator he is supposed to be impartial and don’t hand over preferential treatment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please provide diffs to support the contention "Melody and Jimbreak obviously have interacted in the past and developed some sort of relation between each other on this site which led to this kind of abuse". I don't believe there is any IP user animus here, but if there is, why not create an account to prevent it? 331dot (talk) 14:33, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Melody wouldn't have randomly went to Jimbreak's talk page if there was no prior interaction. But even if there wasn't, that's not really the focus of this thread. This suspicious conversation speaks for itself regardless whether there any prior interaction in the past or not.
- I choose not create an account because there is no requirement to do so. I often see registered users interact with each other here as if this was a social media site like Facebook, Instagram or Linkedin. I respect people's choice to create an account but that's just not for me. If Wikipedia wants all users to register then they should make it mandatory to create an account like most Wiki websites. Until such time happens, unregistered should be given the same respect as those with an account.66.130.253.101 (talk) 14:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Something doesn't have to be required for you to do in order for you to do it- especially if it would negate the problems that you say you have or observe- but it is your choice. I treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless of how they edit(just saying). 331dot (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- To create or to not create an account is not the topic of this thread. And even if I did create an account, it wouldn't justify or explain Melody and Jimbreak's previous misconduct.66.130.253.101 (talk) 15:30, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Something doesn't have to be required for you to do in order for you to do it- especially if it would negate the problems that you say you have or observe- but it is your choice. I treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless of how they edit(just saying). 331dot (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- The first paragraph of this report was pretty exemplary in that it provided evidence (which I haven't looked at yet to determine the correctness) in support of each claim. Why do you then spoil things by sidetracking matters into evidence-free conspiracy theories in the second paragraph? Phil Bridger (talk) 14:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think Melody and Jimbreak would have conducted the way they did if I was a registered user. But you're right, that this isn't the focus of this thread and we should rather concentrate on more important concerns like Melody's edit wars and bogus AIV claims or Jimbreak's unconventional response as an administrator.66.130.253.101 (talk) 15:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- There's certainly no reason for the aspersions, but I think User:Melody Concerto might like to explain how posting at AIV/Admin1/Admin2's pages in quick succession wasn'tWP:FORUMSHOPing, as well as justifying reverting an editor on their on talk page in violation of WP:BLANKING / WP:OWNTALK. ——Serial # 14:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- And perform four reverts in 10 minutes (including two with no edit summary), for a reason not in WP:3RRNO, not a violation of WP:3RR. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 15:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ip edit warred to insert info sourced to a Yelp review (as explained to them not a WP:RS), and the Yelp review wasn't even used as an actual citation but included in an edit summary, never once availed themselves of a talk page in the matter except to blank messages from the other editor, and then reported Melody Concerto for editwarring for continuously removing it. And they're upset they got blocked? Heiro 15:56, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Quite. Since that talk page has been edited a grand total of four times since it was started and not once in the last decade, neither party comes out very well in the "never once availed themselves of a talk page" stakes. ——Serial # 16:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1) In case you haven't noticed, Yelp wasn't the only website in the edit summary.There were two others [164]
- 2) Civic addresses on infoboxes are almost never sourced. Some establish users even remove sources they see attached on infoboxes.
- 3) Melody reverted without providing an edit summary and then slapped a generic template on my talk page. That is not the way to start a discussion to resolve an issue. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- "not the way to start a discussion", while you made no effort to discuss at all. When the insertion was contested the first time you next step should have been the article talk. Heiro 16:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I left edit summaries in all my edits so you may want to check again that part about "no effort to discuss at all". The other party simply reverted without any explanation in half of her reverts. I also don't see any discussion from her on the article's talk page either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 16:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- When you didn't go to the talk page per WP:BRD, they should have. They only look marginally better than you in that regard. Neither one of you come off smelling like roses, but you're the one bringing it to ANI and inviting examination of the issues by other editors as if you're blameless. Heiro 16:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- The thread is primarily about the other users, not me, so I don't know why you're trying to transform this thread into a thread about me. And if I do have a blame in this, it doesn't even come close to what Melody and Jimbreak did of which I can easily count at least 5 violations altogether (failure to use edit summaries, violation of WP:BLANKING, WP:3RR, WP:ADMINSHOP, frivolous AIV report, protecting indefinitely an article with no past protection, WP:INVOLVED violation by trying to get the blocking administrator to intefere with ANEW, etc) 66.130.253.101 (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- You may want to go read WP:BOOMERANG. Heiro 16:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP`BOOMERANG doesn't address violations such as WP:FORUMSHOP or frivolous AIV reports. Nor does it explain how an edit warrior can get away with four reverts in 10 minutes. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 17:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Heironymous Rowe: Fuck off, not every IP-started thread is a boomerang. This is appears to have merit. The IP's edits were not vandalism by our definition in any way shape or form and so Melody's report is at issue here.--v/r - TP 17:33, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I only meant to point them to this language : "A common statement on noticeboards is "this isn't about me; this is about them"........However, that just isn't the case., I wasn't calling for boomerang sanctions. But anyway, fuck off yourself. Heiro 17:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Bullshit, linking WP:BOOMERANG when it's unwarranted is a veiled threat to every IP editor and new editor on WP:ANI and you fucking know it. It has a chilling effect and it's used to shield established editors.--v/r - TP 18:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why don't you dial down the invective a little? I didn't mean it as a veiled threat, I just linked to the only place I knew that specific language resided. It never occurred to me as a threat or otherwise. Period. If you can point me to similar language to what I quoted above somewhere else on WP that doesn't point to boomerang I'll use it in the future. @Phil Bridger: No I did not notice, but until you checked neither did anyone else, including the IP or presumably they would have mentioned it. And with that I think I'll bow out of this conversation now, no need to ping me further. Heiro 19:07, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Bullshit, linking WP:BOOMERANG when it's unwarranted is a veiled threat to every IP editor and new editor on WP:ANI and you fucking know it. It has a chilling effect and it's used to shield established editors.--v/r - TP 18:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I only meant to point them to this language : "A common statement on noticeboards is "this isn't about me; this is about them"........However, that just isn't the case., I wasn't calling for boomerang sanctions. But anyway, fuck off yourself. Heiro 17:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- You may want to go read WP:BOOMERANG. Heiro 16:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- The thread is primarily about the other users, not me, so I don't know why you're trying to transform this thread into a thread about me. And if I do have a blame in this, it doesn't even come close to what Melody and Jimbreak did of which I can easily count at least 5 violations altogether (failure to use edit summaries, violation of WP:BLANKING, WP:3RR, WP:ADMINSHOP, frivolous AIV report, protecting indefinitely an article with no past protection, WP:INVOLVED violation by trying to get the blocking administrator to intefere with ANEW, etc) 66.130.253.101 (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- When you didn't go to the talk page per WP:BRD, they should have. They only look marginally better than you in that regard. Neither one of you come off smelling like roses, but you're the one bringing it to ANI and inviting examination of the issues by other editors as if you're blameless. Heiro 16:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I left edit summaries in all my edits so you may want to check again that part about "no effort to discuss at all". The other party simply reverted without any explanation in half of her reverts. I also don't see any discussion from her on the article's talk page either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 16:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Heironymous Rowe, didn't you notice that the address that Melody Concerto reverted to, and edit-warred over, wasn't sourced at all? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- "not the way to start a discussion", while you made no effort to discuss at all. When the insertion was contested the first time you next step should have been the article talk. Heiro 16:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ip edit warred to insert info sourced to a Yelp review (as explained to them not a WP:RS), and the Yelp review wasn't even used as an actual citation but included in an edit summary, never once availed themselves of a talk page in the matter except to blank messages from the other editor, and then reported Melody Concerto for editwarring for continuously removing it. And they're upset they got blocked? Heiro 15:56, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- And perform four reverts in 10 minutes (including two with no edit summary), for a reason not in WP:3RRNO, not a violation of WP:3RR. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 15:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I see that at the root of this dispute is the issue of whether the address of this casino was "S Indiana Avenue & Brighton Park" or "119 S Indiana Avenue". Both are probably correct, but neither was reliably sourced in the article, so I have done the obvious thing and removed the address. Is that really an issue over which to edit-war and forum-shop and block and protect? Surely there are more important things in Melody Concerto's and Jimfbleak's and 66.130.253.101's lives that they could be doing? If it is really important to have an address in the article then talk about in on its talk page. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:15, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- While I praise Phil Bridger's logical edit on Sands Atlantic City, this thread just shows how users are treated differently and how some can get away with violating policies on Wikipedia. Melody and Jimbreak have violated have least 5 policies together and nobody wants to address those. My only potential violation was edit warring (not even 3RR) and people are turning this whole thread about me. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong here. I agree that your edit that sparked this off was not vandalism, and shouldn't have been treated as such by Melody Concerto and Jimfbleak. The only thing you did that maybe you could have done better was to reinstate your edit after it was reverted rather than go to the talk page, but their actions were clearly against policy. It's just that it rather makes my heart sink to see such a trivial dispute escalate in such an avoidable way. And, once again, it was far more avoidable by them than by you. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- While I praise Phil Bridger's logical edit on Sands Atlantic City, this thread just shows how users are treated differently and how some can get away with violating policies on Wikipedia. Melody and Jimbreak have violated have least 5 policies together and nobody wants to address those. My only potential violation was edit warring (not even 3RR) and people are turning this whole thread about me. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Melody Concerto: Can you please explain your understanding of what vandalism is and what warrants a report an WP:AIV? @Jimfbleak: Can you please explain your apparent anti-IP bias here?--v/r - TP 17:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for ping
- As far as I recall I have had no previous interaction with Melody Concerto, to claim otherwise seems a paranoid accusation based on zero evidence
- Can you please explain your apparent anti-IP bias here? is a nice twist on when did you stop beating your wife? Again, although it's hard to know with an ip account, I have no conscious recall of any dealings with the ip user before. T, you appear to be suggesting a wider antipathy against unregistered users, if that's the case, please provide evidence rather than insinuations. And unlike others, I've never suggested that ip editors should have to create an account, not even through welcome templates
- I've been here for many years, and sometimes I get it wrong. If this is one of those times, all I can say is that at the time I acted in good faith in response to a request for help; no conspiracy, no victimisation.
- Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- You did not acted at all in "good faith" with this answer You automatically sided with a user because she was registered without making any serious verification about what the issue was, laughed at my WP:ANEW report, indefinitely semi-protected an article that had never been protected before and basically made a mockery of the administrator position on Wikipedia. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 05:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I find the accusations listed to be ridiculous and spurious. Admin shopping? I hardly even know any of the admins well; why would I think anyone would favor me? I simply wished and called for an Admin to assist me QUICKLY; since interactions with the unregistered user were breaking down beyond my capability to handle; and the time was late in my timezone. When I found that the admin I'd called was simply not around; I asked in IRC for a more recently active admin and some editors there helped me find one.
- I felt that Jim's actions were pretty fair. A short block was enough to de-escalate things; and boy did they need to be.
- For the AIV reporting; I noticed simply that the user had an established history of ignoring repeated warnings about edits. So yes I used AIV. But it's not like I acted without any aid; I actually spoke with a few other editors in IRC as well; who recommended it. I saw that more than a few reverted warnings were 3s; 4s and 4im-s. So I presumed they were WP:NOTHERE to be helpful.
- Regarding this IP user; I've never met them before. Never reverted them before. In general if someone wants to stand up and defend their edits I generally let be; so long as they reach out to me on my talk page and explain what their edits were and why they were valid. I can and do make errors but in general I am pretty approachable! I won't reject any potentially valid reason; why even an assertion of adding a source later would have been enough to satisfy my concern about the edits!
- I don't have bias against IP editors per-se; but they do appear in my feeds a lot. I think that's a mediawiki design decision. Anonymous unregistered edits are flagged for review! Why on earth would that be a bias on my part?
- Why would an established editor with experience and good faith then *refuse* to create a Wikipedia account? It...simply doesn't compute to me.
♥ Melody ♥ 05:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Do you even know what the issues were regarding those "3s; 4s and 4im-s" warnings? Do you even know if they were valid?
- What you did was shopping for an administrator to cover yourself from the ANEW report and avoid being blocked for violating 3RR. And your strategy worked perfectly well. The administrators at ANEW overlooked my report because they saw that the page was protected and that saved you from what would have otherwise been a block for 3RR. And to make matters worse, you've violated WP:INVOLVED by trying to make Jimfbleak close the ANEW report.
- And with your last sentence Why would an established editor with experience and good faith then *refuse* to create a Wikipedia account? It...simply doesn't compute to me., you've pretty much admitted that you have prejudices against unregistered editors. Are you insinuating that unregistered users can't make good faith edits? 66.130.253.101 (talk) 06:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Melody_Concerto, you are avoiding the issue here. Just answer the simple questions of why you regarded this as vandalism and why you reverted to a completely unsourced address. And don't say "people on IRC agreed with me". This is WQikipedia, not IRC, and what is said there has no bearing on what is right. And why do you think Jimfbleak's block was right, when you were the one reverting to an unsourced version, so surely it was you if anyone who should have been blocked to de-escalate things? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- This whole ordeal is ridiculous. All of this over changing an address from cross-streets to a numerical address? First, the IP can't list sources only in the edit summary. 2nd, the sources may or may not be acceptable -- I'm not digging into that as it seems moot. 3rd, I don't think Melody really handled the situation very carefully only adding to the IP's frustration. 4th, the IP was blocked AND the page was semi'd, yet Melody skated w/o even a warning. Last, TParis made their point but almost escalated this further. Please, everyone read what has been said above, take it to heart, don't do it again, and move on. Talk about trouts. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 07:12, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Moving on is far easier said than done when a user is blocked but the other who did worse isn't, and when an article is indefinitely semi-protected not because of an history of disruption throughout the years but rather because of the poor judgment of an administrator. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 07:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- The page should be un-protected and you should take it to the talk page, IMO. You got the short end of the stick but that can't be undone nor will it be corrected. Jimfbleak stated above they sometimes get things wrong; around here that's about as good as you can expect. Melody should be admonished and really should know better. TParis is right about IPs but almost blew it. If you go right back to edit-warring, then peace be with you. All this over an address, really? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 07:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I personally don't have any desire to edit the page but it should be unprotected for other unregistered users that had nothing to do with this issue. Melody should be blocked 24 hours for breaking 3RR which, when you think of it, is really a mild block considering all her other violations. As for Jimfbleak, I don't think he qualifies an an administrator but I'm realistic enough to know that it takes more than one incident to sanction an administrator. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 08:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- The page should be un-protected and you should take it to the talk page, IMO. You got the short end of the stick but that can't be undone nor will it be corrected. Jimfbleak stated above they sometimes get things wrong; around here that's about as good as you can expect. Melody should be admonished and really should know better. TParis is right about IPs but almost blew it. If you go right back to edit-warring, then peace be with you. All this over an address, really? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 07:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Moving on is far easier said than done when a user is blocked but the other who did worse isn't, and when an article is indefinitely semi-protected not because of an history of disruption throughout the years but rather because of the poor judgment of an administrator. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 07:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Just wanted to add my support for Bison X's treatment of events, after reading this whole discussion. I think all involved will be more careful in the future to use talk pages, which is really what this all comes down to.I would add that TParis and Heironymous Rowe cussing at each other was not really needed and an unwelcome distraction. WP:PROFANEDISCUSSIONS...I see no way to square the words fuck off with WP:IUC's admonition against indecent suggestions, and I think that TParis should apologize in private on Heironymous Rowe's talk page. I do think that their mention of WP:BOOMERANG was in good faith, the only thing they could have done better is clarify what part they were referring to, perhaps with a quote. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 08:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I thought that wasn't great in a criticism of other editors' behaviour. Anyway, in the circumstances, I've unprotected the article in question too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Psiĥedelisto: It was absolutely warranted. We start with Melody that gets into an edit war with an IP and assumes bad faith on the IP's part (accusing the IP of vandalism). Then Jimfbleak assuming that the IP is indeed the vandal without reviewing the edits before using the mod button. Then 331dot suggesting it's the IP's fault for not registering an account. And finally Heironymous Rowe throwing a veiled threat at this IP for filing this report by bolding suggesting it'd boomerang on the IP. 4 editors have mistreated this IP and owe it an apology and I absolutely believe that the proper use of a "fuck off" was warranted in this case to raise the issue of how profoundly fucked up we've treated the IP as a community. So, I will not be issuing an apology. But those 4 editors could apologize to the IP and maybe then I'll consider it.--v/r - TP 14:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- But what is the point? People who choose not to make an account just get treated that way, often. I am actually pleasantly surprised no one has thrown around sock accusations yet, that quite regularly happens in content disputes. Or when one has a variable IP, constant SPA nonsense, marking of comments as SPA etc. because some people do not understand how it works on a technical side, that it is not by choice and so on. And many other things like being called anonymous to disparage when an IP editor is way less so than someone with a phantasy name or what have you. Or hardly ever being apologized to. Getting mad at one or two people does not do anything. It just is how it is and as long as one does not want to make an account one has to live with getting treated like shit regularly. Obviously there are many friendly people as well though. But whatever, just my two cents. 2003:D6:2714:372E:7CDD:67EE:C5B6:C3EE (talk) 15:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're right, but we shouldn't tolerate it just because that's the way it is and has always been. I can't jump into every case of an IP editor, but this one is pretty blatant and obvious.--v/r - TP 15:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I edited as a dynamic IP for about 8 years and in that time directly ran into maybe 3 editors (2 were admins) who belittle IPs reflexively. On the other hand, I can probably name 10-12 admins who in that time understood WP:IPHUMAN. How you act & how you edit as an IP is on you and you entirely. Yes, IPs are people too, but a lot of people are morons. If you act like a grown up as an IP, you get treated like one by admins. If you act like an immature newbie, it makes little difference if you are an IP; but if you blame it on that no one will or should bother to listen. Being an IP means you can't rest on your laurels and every new edit is a chance to fail or succeed. OTOH, editing as an IP has a couple of advantages I still miss and anyone who tells an IP to create an account can suck it. BTW, Wikipedia:Why not create an account? is a condescending pile of crap and is part of the problem. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 17:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- (ec)For the most part i agree, if you act like an adult you have a decent chance to be treated fair. As an IP editor one has much less space for misbehaving though. Small things can lead to annoying things, like this i guess. But as you said, chances are that if one explains oneself well, reasoned and calmly, many admins will listen. And of course there are many people editing as IP's that are absolute idiots, no question lol. But then again, really no different with people with accounts. It just is very disheartening when things like that do happen. I only had like 3 or 4 really bad experiences over 6 or so years myself and many more actual positive ones where people were sticking up for me. But the bad stuff stays with you more. Also, infoboxes on userpages stating they are against IP editing are also an issue i feel. On the face of it, it is only a small, perhaps technical, thing. But it also tells me i am not wanted. And with those people there just is no talking. But, at least one can just vanish from them with a variable IP. Stay away from articles those people edit, no contribs for them to follow and just go on doing something positive. Anyway, enough general ramblings about being an IP editor lol. Not all bad and most certainly is very much about how one conducts oneself. Be decent and chances are that is how you are treated, be less than optimal and you get rightfully shown the door. Just some people blur those lines a bit too much. 2003:D6:2714:372E:7CDD:67EE:C5B6:C3EE (talk) 18:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- And one last thing, just say you are sorry if you do mess up. It happens. We all understand that many editors, admins in particular, deal with a lot of shit. But hearing someone say sorry that they messed up means a lot. Just to come back to how this should ultimately end. Anyway, happy fathers day to all you dads out there. 2003:D6:2714:372E:7CDD:67EE:C5B6:C3EE (talk) 18:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I might have guessed that IRC was involved in this. That is the home of techies rather than encyclopedists, and I have lost count of the number of times that I have seen editors egged on by others on IRC to make edits against policy, and in the process gang up on editors (who may or may not identify by their IP address) who don't belong to that particular clique. Why do we put up with such off-wiki canvassing? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger I guess this is another conspiracy insinuation. I don't have am IRC account, although I have no idea how it's possible for me to prove that. I'd be much happier to be judged on what I've actually done/not done than what you think I've been plotting on a website I've never used, let alone be "egged on by". Cheers, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 20:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- And I neither said that you were involved nor have made any conspiracy insinuations. I specifically said that the original poster here should not have done so. My statement was based on the fact that Melody Concerto said above, "I actually spoke with a few other editors in IRC as well; who recommended it". Phil Bridger (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Moving forward, I would propose a block on Melody's account with a duration of 24 hours to make matters fair. I was blocked 31 hours for less than what she did. Melody performed four reverts within 10 minutes for something that wasn't on WP:3RRNO. Period. Any other user would have been blocked for this. Administrators have been blocked and sometimes even been desysoped for this. But somehow, Melody gets exempted because she went to Jimfbleak?!?!?! And we're just talking about 3RR here. I didn't even mentioned the other stuff from the faux WP:AIV to the admin hunting, or the failed attempt to get Jimfleak to end a report on AN3; all of which are transgressions of policies, not guidelines. Doing nothing about it sends a precedent that users can violate policies at free will and find themselves an administrator to shield them from sanctions.66.130.253.101 (talk) 03:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- @66.130.253.101: Two wrongs don't make a right. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK. This discussion will be archived, and if similar happens, you can reopen a discussion. Remember, Wikipedia:Sanctions against editors should not be punitive. There's no reason to block Melody Concerto, certainly not to create some kind of false sense of "fairness" wherein everybody loses. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 03:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Two wrongs don't make a right. How is being blocked for breaking 3RR a wrong and how is not being blocked for breaking 3RR a right? Blocks are there to be preventive and a short block recorded on her log would serve her as a remainder to not repeat the things that have lead to all this. As it is, there's no reason to believe that she wouldn't do it again because she has seldom participated in this discussion and for the only time she did, she denied any wrong doing and did not address the concerns people had about her behaviour. WP:DROPTHESTICK doesn't apply because the debate has not come to a natural end. Maybe that's your own interpretation of the thread but that's certainly not the fact considering that Phil Bridger asked Melody a question 12 hours ago and the concerns raised by T Paris yesterday. What's the point on opening a thread here if it's for it to be closed unresolved just because someone in their own mind personally feels that it has become obsolete when the conversation indicates otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 07:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocks are not meant to be punitive but to stop disruption - would blocking Melody Concerto stop future disruption?Nigel Ish (talk) 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes because she can't/won't understand that she was edit warring. Meaning that she could be redoing it at anytime. Based on my experience on this site, blocks have often been the remedy for people who did not understand that they were disruptive. In many cases, it put them back on the right track and were never reblocked for the same thing. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocks are meant to stop current active disruption. If she is not currently engaged in an edit war this moment that a block would put an end to, then it's inappropriate. The outcome of this conversation is an expression that the desired behavior out of Melody and Jimfbleak is that IPs are given a fair shake and Melody quits calling IP edits vandalism when she doesn't like them.--v/r - TP 14:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes because she can't/won't understand that she was edit warring. Meaning that she could be redoing it at anytime. Based on my experience on this site, blocks have often been the remedy for people who did not understand that they were disruptive. In many cases, it put them back on the right track and were never reblocked for the same thing. 66.130.253.101 (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocks are not meant to be punitive but to stop disruption - would blocking Melody Concerto stop future disruption?Nigel Ish (talk) 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Two wrongs don't make a right. How is being blocked for breaking 3RR a wrong and how is not being blocked for breaking 3RR a right? Blocks are there to be preventive and a short block recorded on her log would serve her as a remainder to not repeat the things that have lead to all this. As it is, there's no reason to believe that she wouldn't do it again because she has seldom participated in this discussion and for the only time she did, she denied any wrong doing and did not address the concerns people had about her behaviour. WP:DROPTHESTICK doesn't apply because the debate has not come to a natural end. Maybe that's your own interpretation of the thread but that's certainly not the fact considering that Phil Bridger asked Melody a question 12 hours ago and the concerns raised by T Paris yesterday. What's the point on opening a thread here if it's for it to be closed unresolved just because someone in their own mind personally feels that it has become obsolete when the conversation indicates otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 07:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Close @Jimfbleak: has deflected and refused to explain their actions in accordance to WP:ADMINACCT and @Melody Concerto: has remained defensive and unapologetic, but the discussion has run its course. Let it close and the IP can bring it up again if it happens again.--v/r - TP 14:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- I won't be editing anymore on this site and will stick to the French Wikipedia where unregistered users are treated far more differently and can still create articles (albeit with some guidelines of course). But in the unlikeliness that this thread was able to raise awareness regarding the double standard towards unregistered users, I'm happy that it was able to make some difference. If T Paris feels that it should be closed then I guess it can be closed and we can all move on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.253.101 (talk) 14:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
User: Mr.User200 reverting all edits
A sockpuppet accusation should be made at WP:SPI. Maistara's edits are fishy enough to warrant further investigation anyway. Mr.User200 is advised to not pay attention to Maistara's complaints, and to read, and try to apply, Wikipedia:Colons and asterisks. Drmies (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Mr.User200 – Editor has removed all my sourced edits/content within the past 24 hours without having used the talk page and just followed all my edits and removed most content without any explanation nor sources. He just reverts back any edit I made/make, see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, He removes all my content and then accuses me Of things that I am clearly not doing. Like can the User: Mr.User200 explain why he removed this?: 6. Adding content with a clear source and then he removes it by simpely acussing it as not reliable? I clearly stated that it was an Turkish claim as does the source so why remove it? How is that even allowed? He also doesn’t listen in the Talk page either nor barely uses it. On the page of Operation Spring Shield he uses the excuse of grammar to remove literally 80% of the page while I am still working on it as I said earier in the talk page! [165] Thats not how Wikipedia works, is it? Isn’t he supposed to help and improve the page as well? Its also not copyrighted as the copyrighted parts were already removed by an other user.[166] And here [167] he even acusses me of edit warring on something that 1. was clearly not an edit war, not even close. 2. It was already resolved/fixed. If this user doesn’t get a warning or a block for this unacceptable behavior then I’m kind of done with Wikipedia. Spending hours to improve pages only to get everything removed by an user who doesn’t even give any logical reason at all and who is clearly trying to annoy me and disrupt my work, is that what Wikipedia is? Maistara (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Edit: Its unbelievable, the user continues vandalizing all my edits:9, 10, 11. Also he ignores my warnings: [168]Maistara (talk) 13:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Maistara with a account of 48 hours of created, edits the same Turkish related articles that were vandalised in February- March & May by various Socks. In the Operation Spring Shield article he make Copyright infridgement and was Warned, he reverts content without explanation. FirstSecondMore.
This new account have a Heavy Pro Turkish POV. Inflating Syrian losses from previous edits, Calling claims everything regarding Turkish military conflicts.
I was warned by another user he could be a Sockpuppet of User:Gala19000 Here.
While checking all his/her edits, there is a huge coincidence of the articles bein edited to his POV.
A CheckUser invstigation could be made, I have a list o possible Sockpuppets. Mr.User200 (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding my revert on his contribution, the article of the Operation Spring Shield had Copyright issues and a terrible Grammar. "Two Russian-made Su-24 jets of the Syrian airforce that allegedly attacked attack Turkish planes were shot down. Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said that Turkish forces had destroyed so far two Syrian Su-24 fighter jets, two drones, 135 tanks, and five air defence systems." Literal. Another example: Turkish F-16 intruded Syrian airspace twice. The jets attacked and downed two planes of the Syrian Air Forces over Idlib. The pilots managed to eject safely," the Syrian defense ministry official said. For that reason and the heavy POV on his edits I preferred to kept all the articles on their last version.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Wait now I am the one who vandalized? You were literally ignoring the warnings. All copyrighted parts of Operation Spring Shield was already deleted and I was working on the article to improve it. You on the other hand didn’t even try to improve it but just remove everything that was added. And it wasn’t just that one, here we see what you all removed:
You were just removing everything you didn’t like and now accuse me of being heavy pro Turkish? Are you a joke? And besides that I am now also a SP? I would use the same arguments as well if I couldn’t win a discussion with another user. Pathetic try from you here. You ignore the talk pages, you ignore the warnings and now warn me? Stop being so lame. If there are problems with the grammar then you are welcome to help me with that. I was still working on it to improve the page as I was one of the few who worked on it. And you just removed everything because that will improve the page? What?Maistara (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- The behaviour and languague used by this user have a lot in common with those banned SP. Also the same editing habits is similar with those Sockpuppets. The way he use and known how Wikipediaworks , he is not a new user at all. He also give warning insults like here.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mr.User200, and Maistara, y'all should try to indent properly, and I think both of you should stop talking here. Mr.User200, I removed that list for formatting reasons--please file an SPI. Ponyo, you did the leg work last time; if you have a moment?
- Mr.User200, you're not a new user too, and you should know how to indent properly in a discussion. Drmies (talk) 13:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Wait now I am the one who vandalized? You were literally ignoring the warnings. All copyrighted parts of Operation Spring Shield was already deleted and I was working on the article to improve it. You on the other hand didn’t even try to improve it but just remove everything that was added. And it wasn’t just that one, here we see what you all removed:
- Regarding my revert on his contribution, the article of the Operation Spring Shield had Copyright issues and a terrible Grammar. "Two Russian-made Su-24 jets of the Syrian airforce that allegedly attacked attack Turkish planes were shot down. Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said that Turkish forces had destroyed so far two Syrian Su-24 fighter jets, two drones, 135 tanks, and five air defence systems." Literal. Another example: Turkish F-16 intruded Syrian airspace twice. The jets attacked and downed two planes of the Syrian Air Forces over Idlib. The pilots managed to eject safely," the Syrian defense ministry official said. For that reason and the heavy POV on his edits I preferred to kept all the articles on their last version.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I´am not new, but I am not using a new acount. A CheckUser Investigation should be made. I have a list of those Sockpuppets in my Talk page. I want a CheckUser investigation how I can contact a SPI clerk.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mr.User200, so your proposal is a boomerang block? {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 13:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- That user have all the behaviour and the same editing habits like those banned Sockpuppets, also he have the same languague, I think is obvious.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Example of canvassing by that User.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Maistara with a account of 48 hours of created, edits the same Turkish related articles that were vandalised in February- March & May by various Socks. In the Operation Spring Shield article he make Copyright infridgement and was Warned, he reverts content without explanation. FirstSecondMore.
Alright, so is there going to be taken any action against Mr.User200? Or is reporting him here not enough? Have shown all the evidences I have and he still continues doing the same thing. Would like to get some help on this. Maistara (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by B.Perrine
- B.Perrine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
B.Perrine insists on changing links to redirects in spite of being told numerous times on their talk page about WP:NOTBROKEN. This makes verifying their edits very tedious. I think many of the changes are not improvements - a lot are of the type such as changing "Governor of someplace", which redirects to "List of Governors of someplace", to a piped direct link. If the redirect is ever made into an article "Governor of someplace", then the link will go to the wrong place. See their talk page for the number times they have been asked to stop these kinds of changes. Magnolia677 gave a final warning months ago; there was no reply and the behavior continues. MB 16:27, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Most of their edits do this. This is their most recent edit that replaces (superior) links to redirects with (inferior) links to the present target of the redirect. The edit history is filled with these kinds of edits and their talk page is filled with messages to stop. MB 18:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- The William_Shirley history seems to be: B.Perrine changed the links, MB reverted it, then there has been nothing since. I think this is an issue for the article's Talk page rather than ANI. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 22:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- That was just one example. They make these kinds of changes continually on many articles and have been advised many times on their talk page, with no response or change in behavior. This is not an issue for the talk page of that article. Just see their talk page where they have been warned to stop disruptive editing. MB 02:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1292simon, you are incorrect: this is not an issue for the talk page of that article. Drmies (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Many edits this month have been to fix working redirects: [169],[170], [171]. This editor responded once last November: "i acknowledge the overlinking issue & thought i have stopped doing same". Magnolia677 (talk) 09:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- The have continued today, in spite of this discussion here, without engaging. In addition to "fixing" working redirects, they continue to link things not normally linked like countries and common words like salt and lumber. MB 19:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Many edits this month have been to fix working redirects: [169],[170], [171]. This editor responded once last November: "i acknowledge the overlinking issue & thought i have stopped doing same". Magnolia677 (talk) 09:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Ohnoitsjamie warned them in May already, User:EdJohnston just did so again. That should be enough--one more such edit and we should block. Drmies (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Navonedu has been warned a lot of times over his disrupting editing[172][173] but he continues to edit war by making edits such as [174][175][176][177] in violation of WP:LINKVIO, WP:FANPAGE and WP:PROMO and doubles down by leaving messages like "Please be careful of your actions! Or you will be banned", instead of understanding WP:OR and WP:RS. To me he is a case of WP:CIR and WP:NOTHERE. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 12:36, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
शिव साहिल deletes and removes large content, without any discussion, that is the main concern for me. Editors spend a lot of time gathering correct information and references, you cannot just delete a complete section for one single unavailable reference,or delete information with proper references based on the previous line.If you are having concerns regarding citations, why don't you discuss rather than washing huge content altogether? That disrupts constructive writing and is under vandalism.Please refrain from deleting important sections altogether on your personal assumption or will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Navonedu (talk • contribs) 16:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - not an ANI issue, based on the diffs presented. 1292simon (talk) 11:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- How it isn't? This user is violating copyrights and considers any reversion of his edits as "vandalism". He is also marking all his major edits as "minor". This is a complete CIR issue which needs to be handled with a block. Cyphoidbomb can you take a look? शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 15:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- @1292simon: Did you even look at the diffs? This one has the user drooling over Atif Aslam including content copied almost verbatim from here. Clear promotion and copyright violations would definitely be an ANI concern. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm also noticing these edits at Sonu Nigam, which when compared to the stuff he was doing at Atif Aslam looks like he's just here to back up the drool truck to Pakistani pop articles. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Navonedu, these edits are right; the content does not satisfy Wikipedia policies. Have a look at WP:OR and look at his summary: (remove WP:OR based on rumors and unreliable sources). He has a reason for deleting this stuff. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 23:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
शिव साहिल deleted the whole section!If he has a problem with one reference and citation, he can do it for that line and piece of information. How come the whole section at once? Isn't that intentional vandalism? I am myself checking the references, and not a single one of them to me seems misinformation or rumor. Please tell me exactly which line is a rumor? About the copyright violation, I will try to rewrite the sentence carefully next time, it was an honest mistake.I am against washing important section of pages for a couple of lines.I am against intentional vandalism, which clearly tries to remove whole section for few missing references. I already removed and updated a lot of references.Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Navonedu (talk • contribs)
- @Navonedu: 1) Sign your posts with four tildes like ~~~~, to properly append your signature and time stamp. 2) You are shifting the burden to शिव साहिल to sift through your edits, when the bulk of the content you have submitted is atrociously inappropriate. Praise, praise, praise, this acclaimed person likes Aslam, this reknowned person likes Aslam, praise, drool, drool. It's like you have no awareness that this is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia, not a fan website. I brought these problems to your attention on 11 June, so you shouldn't act surprised that they've been deleted. It also troubles me that some of the content you copied almost verbatim from other sources, which suggests you have no comprehension of what plagiarism or a copyright violation is. Care to address these concerns? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cyphoidbomb, is it a good idea to ban him from these specific pages? But then, there are 5 million more articles that he can do disruptive editing over. I don't know. A topic ban from articles related to Pakistani people is also good. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 18:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Administrator note At present, I don't have lots of time to deal with this, and it's nagging me from the back of my head. There is a part of me that thinks the user should be removed of their editing privileges for the insane amount of promotional content they've added, and I would support that. There is another part of me that thinks someone should drop a major wall of knowledge to explain why all of these issues are problematic, to give them one final chance. I would appreciate any support any other admins might offer. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I support indef block and the "walls of texts" providing lengthy explanation about his problematic editing can be added once he requests unblock or shows any willingness to learn how to edit. @3125A: This user is not able to edit anything in a constructive manner so far thus we don't have to reward him with a topic ban expecting he would edit something else in a constructive manner. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 04:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I suppose so; per nom. Also another issue is his edit summaries. I'm half WikiGnome so that's why I don't provide edit summaries for about 90% of my edits. But his edits mostly are with no edit summaries. And the ones which do so follow a sort of "reference" and/or "content" propaganda. So I say support indef block. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 13:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Brian K Horton
Blocked by Deb. (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Brian K Horton (talk · contribs · count) is a single-purpose account that has, so far, mainly posted dubious comments on two noticeboards arguing for the overturn of the well-attended RfCs on the Daily Mail:
- WP:RSN § Is it a problem that Wikipedia's own article on the Mail doesn't seem to justify depreciation as a source?
- WP:BLPN § Does DAILYMAIL need a disclaimer, or even guidance on how it can be invoked?
Brian K Horton started the BLPN discussion after the RSN discussion failed to gain traction with other editors. After both discussions were closed as unconstructive by different editors, Brian K Horton posted a comment on my talk page (User talk:Newslinger § Stop gaslighting me) accusing me of "gaslighting" them.
As Brian K Horton appears to be solely interested in advancing frivolous arguments against the community's decision on the Daily Mail, and has shown no interest in any other topic area, I propose that Brian K Horton be indefinitely blocked for clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia. — Newslinger talk 16:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
support per nom. {{31}}{{25A (talk)}} 17:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I have made no frivolous arguments, and dubious is in the eye of the beholder, as can be seen if anyone cares to look, although I doubt anyone is going to. It's a simple fact Newslinger has been gaslighting me - by not just ignoring what I say, but making me think I'm crazy by denying my right to stand behind some basic facts that nobody but a seriously malicious person would ever deny were basic facts. Such as, it's a basic fact that it is Wikipedia policy that a consensus is not valid if it didn't address reasonable concerns. Unhappy that it hasn't succeeded and I haven't run away screaming, this is just another ramping up of that effort, to see if he can properly break me. It's contemptible. If I am such a threat to Wikipedia that you have to resort to arguing a person who makes every effort to frame their posts by showing their relevance to Wikipedia, is not here to help Wikipedia, so be it. But I'm not going voluntarily. Brian K Horton (talk) 17:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Brian K Horton - Whatever the rights and wrongs of your argument, it is just not acceptable to accuse someone of gaslighting you. I suggest you withdraw that accusation immediately. Deb (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why is it not acceptable? Would you like it to be presented in long form instead? Do you need me to say Newslinger is deliberately making me feel like I'm crazy as an attempt to break me down, as an alternative to treating me with basic human dignity? Or is that still unacceptable? Or are you asking me to list all the times he has deliberately ignored basic facts, and simply repeated what both he and I know is a lie, back to me, apparently just because he can? You already have one, namely whether or not my argument at RSN cites a Wikipedia policy. A second is his claim my post at BLPN is a legal question to the Foundation. I can go on, if needs be. This behaviour is deliberate, its malicious, and it should be deemed unacceptable. As is blaming the victim. Brian K Horton (talk) 17:40, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support The user's entire contribution history consists of disruptive WP:NOTFORUM violations on noticeboards, with no constructive contributions whatsoever. He refuses to change his behavior after his posts were appropriately collapsed. buidhe 17:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another straight up lie, no debate about it. Why are you even pretending that other people can't see that I did at least make what are hopefully unambiguously helpful posts at RSN? Such as the point about AdFontes. If not to make me feel like I'm the crazy person, of course. This is straight up gaslighting. Anyone going to call it out? No? Brian K Horton (talk) 17:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Action: I've given this very new user a week's block which he can use to read up on Wikipedia policies and understand that personal attacks are not acceptable. If he chooses to return at the end of that, it will need to be with a constructive attitude. Deb (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Iamdmonah and gross incompetence
Iamdmonah, you are formally warned to tone it down and to address other contributors in good faith. Further violations will be met by sanctions. You are failing to focus on content, which is on you. You need to correct that. Thanks and good luck. El_C 18:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Iamdmonah is a rather recent user with severe problems in the field of sourcing. Often giving no sourcing at all or just giving links to websites where you have to find the info on your own. Recently, Iamdmonah started started giving quotes for sources, but unless specifically pointed to the right quote, he failed to add them properly. This looks like gross incompetence (WP:CIR). No matter what, Iamdmonah thinks that we (user:Mabuska and me) should help him and not be so critical. But advice is not or hardly heeded too or plain rejected ([178]).
History of source requests and warnings about sourcing: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16
Not assuming good faith: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Discussions are going nowhere and improvements are zero as Iamdmonah fails to adhere to WP:RS and WP:V. To my personal opinion, it is enough now and I request a block for gross incompetence. The Banner talk 13:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Other than a thank you they gave me for an edit, to which I didn't understand why they did, the first direct interaction I had with this editor was this bad faith and threat. I did however outline where they were wrong to which they kept trying to say that it wasn't them ([179] . Firstly they had firstly been hacked, then something about how easy it is for Google to be hacked ([180] how does that apply to Wikipedia) and then it was because someone got access to their unprotected devices, to which supposedly their Wikipedia account doesn't even have a password [181]. The message they left me on my talk page was 20 minutes prior to a string of edits they made on several articles, so they were active around the time of leaving it.
- Despite their denials subsequent comments however make it clear they were full of bull and driven by political bias: And killed by those few Irishmen who fight against freedom- pretty much the story of Irish history if you ask me., I'm not even going to try and argue about Irish neutrality in WW2 with a British loyalist, I 100% accept the blame for bringing up the subject, should never have done so., My image of the "Irish freedom fighter" is countered by your views that British people are the best in the world. All of this is based simply on the fact on my Wikiedpia user page I have an infobox which states I am a proud citizen of Northern Ireland - nothing more and nothing less. In fact they would be very hard pressed to find an article or talk page edit of mine that would show me as being a "loyalist", which they can't as I am not one nor ever would be.
- Away from that the editor especially at Brian O'Neill (High-King of Ireland) kept adding in information cited to poor unreliable webpages. These "sources" we also full of WP:WEASEL and WP:PEACOCK, to which this user added yet more weasel and peacockery and OR/synthesis. I have pointed them to quite a few policy articles, but they are obviously not reading them.
- They also as The Banner has pointed out expect us to tidy up after them. I have made this editor aware of the policies of foreign-language names on Wikipedia and yet he continues to add them in even adding pipe-links, and expecting me to correct it for them. In regards to sources they asked me to provide online versions for them because they can't get access to them, even asking me to provide Google book links for them. I told them to be WP:BOLD and do it themselves. Yes it would be helpful but not all academic sources can be found with free previews and I made this clear to them. These edits show a laziness to do the basics of research and effort to conform to policy.
- Their edits are full of issues and their views on historical events based by their use of article talk pages as a forum for soapboxing views that are entirely at odds with historical reality and academic sources. Anything that goes against their view is not true in their opinion.
- My biggest concern with this editor however is that he could be a sockpuppet of the indef banned editor Lapsed Pacifist and his sock Gob Lofa, another highly politicised and biased Irish republican editor. All three accounts have nine shared articles so far, 19 articles between him and the Gob Lofa account alone, and about 12 between him and Lapsed Pacifist including quite recently the Patrick Sarsfield, 1st Earl of Lucan article. Quite an overlap in interest and political mindset for an editor of only 249 article edits on 53 articles, with 41.5% of them unique articles shared with Gob Lofa/LP combined.
- I have tried to be accommodating to this editor where possible, even going as far as helping explain a revert another editor did on one of their edits. However their extremely distorted political bias and complete inability to accept historical reality and facts and penchant for outright lying seriously brings their competence into question. Mabuska (talk) 15:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
These claims are nonsense in my view. I would appreciate if you would read my side of the story and keep in mind that I'm a new editor who has made mistakes, but I am trying to learn as I go along. This is my account based upon the claims of both of these editors. I apologise for any offence caused in the following:
My problems with user:The Banner: We first met on the page Brian Boru. I made edits on the page– some of my first ever edits– which I 100% accept were unsourced. They reverted them, and he was perfectly right to do so. They explained to me how my edits were unsourced, and how I could improve, which I thanked them for. I fixed my mistakes and that was that. I continued editing Brian Boru but my edits were repeatedly reverted by the Banner– despite,in my view, my sourcing being equal or superior to other sources on the page and on other wikipedia pages. I kept trying to improve and I felt I was doing well. But things started to get frustrating when they continued reverting my edits without any explanation. These often escalated into edit conflicts which could last days. I would repeatedly ask them what was wrong with my edits- to which I received no response. Therefore, I continued to edit as I hadn't received any explanation as to what was wrong with my edits. At this point I was informed that my edits on all pages were going to be checked by them. His allegations of my edits being unsourced quickly escalated from being "unsourced" to being "vandalism" (to which they did not back up or give any evidence). We had several arguments on multiple different talk pages, which eventually ended when he seemed to finally give up harassing me– or so I thought.
My problems with user:Mabuska: We met on the page Owen Roe O'Neill. I was editing the page when they moved the page from the Irish language title to the English language title– which I had no problem with. At this point I accidentally thanked them. That was that for a while. However things escalated when someone accessed my account— I still do not know by who or how– and accessed their talk page and accused them of a "campaign" of changing Irish-language titles to English-language titles. I came on to my account 20 mins later to edit my talk page. I was unaware of the edits on Mabuska's talk page until I received a response from them, in which they rightfully defended themselves– but also began accusing me of being a sock puppet account of "Irish Republican" editors which have been banned. I repeatedly attempted to explain to them that it was not me, and I apologised and accepted responsibility for allowing my account to be accessed so easily– but they continued accusing me of the previous accusation made through my account. We both eventually agreed to end the conversation– as they would not accept my explanations or apologies. But not before they said they would also be monitoring my account as they believed I was linked to these "Irish Republican" editors. We had a run in again on the page Brian O'Neill, High King of Ireland, which I was editing. They accused me of using an "unreliable source". I did not intervene when they attempted to change my edits– despite my firm beliefs that my edits were properly sourced. I reverted some of their edits I felt were unnecessary– to which they reverted again. I did not intervene again to avoid another confrontation– apart from me cleaning up some punctual mistakes they had made, which they thanked me for. However, it was at this point that we had an argument in the talk page. It was obvious we had very different opinions. And yes, I do have some Irish nationalist/republican views (which I never denied)– but NONE of my views reflected on my edits, contrary to their allegations– to which they provided no evidence whatsoever. I made the edits they provided above on TALK PAGES, not on the actual wikipedia pages. A talk page is somewhere editors can express their opinions and ways to improve the article, so I did not believe I was in the wrong making those statements. Therefore, their allegations that my edits on the actual wikipedia pages are invalid. Obviously, their accusations are based on their Ulster loyalist/Unionist views which they have repeatedly demonstrated, and I dont believe I need to provide any evidence for this– you can simply check the SAME TALK PAGES on which my edits were on. Therefore, their accusations are completely hypocritical. UPDATE: Due to concerns from the editor in question, user:Mabuska, that I am not providing evidence to prove they have Ulster loyalist/Unionist views, I have decided to provide some: FIRSTLY, on his user page, it is stated that he is a "proud citizen of Northern Ireland"– notably with a Union Jack beside it– this shows they are proud of their British identity and this is something I believe no nationalist/republican would do. SECONDLY, he has said himself he has had a number of clashes with other Irish Republican editors. THIRLDY, on our arguments on the talk page of Brian O'Neill, he repeatedly attempted to demonstrate, in my view, the superiority of Norman/English settlers over the native Irish Gaels. FOURTHLY, several of his edits on other wikipedia pages, including pages he himself created, are strongly associated with Unionist topics. I hope that addresses you concerns.
And I never asked them to provide URL links for my own sources— I asked them to provide them for their own edits, which were made manually. This is something I was punished for by The Banner– so obviously, one of these editors are lying about the "wikipedia guidelines"– I cant be wrong in both instances. And his claims that I am a sock puppet account of these Irish Republican editors are completely false– I have never heard of or had any contact with these editors. Any mutual pages on which we have edited are completely coincidental. I believe this editor is being unfair towards me because of our conflicting political views.
And in terms of me asking for help off them, I only asked for them to explain what I was doing wrong. These events with both editors escalated into a quite intense argument on my talk page which ended with them seemingly giving up on their allegations. Afterwards I continued editing, mainly small edits. Obviously I was being monitored by both editors as I went- because the second I made a mistake on Patrick Sarsfield, 1st Earl of Lucan– it was soon reverted by the Banner (again with no explanation). Keep in mind this was an extremely small edit. Thankfully, Mabuska seemed to listen to my concerns and explained what I had done wrong, which I accepted as my mistake and thanked him for explaining. But at this point, to my surprise, the Banner made this complaint to you– seemingly because of my very small edit on Patrick Sarsfield. They accused me of making unsourced edits on purpose, which is frankly insane in my view– what reason do I have to do this? Considering this was my first "mistake" in quite some time.
In my view, all of these claims are completely false, biased, unreasonable, unfair and lacking any evidence. For the record, I did not have any previous knowledge of wikipedia and how it works or use any tools such as Wikipedia:Adventure or Teahouses– something I regret. I have only learned about these tools very recently, that is why I had not already used them. In my view, these editors are clearly taking advantage of me not knowing or understanding the Wikipedia guidelines as well as them– I'm sure if I knew them, I could find some they have violated.But I will not because I hope that you, as the administrator, has the knowledge, empathy and unbiased views that will prove me innocent. Frankly these two editors are driving me insane and I am becoming extremely frustrated– at one point I even considered leaving wikipedia because I felt I could not do anything wrong. I am really trying to my very best and am trying to learn. But these editors are not helping me at all and are in my view damaging wikipedia by attempting to drive new editors off the site. I have made repeated attempts to solve our issues– all of which they have blatantly ignored. Blocking me would make things worse– it would encourage these editors to continue harassing new editors and undermining the principles of Wikipedia. I do not want to continue arguing with these people– I am only defending my innocence and what I know is right.
Again, apologies for any offence caused. Thank you for reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamdmonah (talk • contribs) 17:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
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I believe this editor is being unfair towards me because of our conflicting political views.
- I have no issues with you because of your personal beliefs as every one is entitled to believe what they want. I can and have in the past easily worked with editors who I personally disagree with because they also follow Wikipedia guidelines. My issues with you are borne out of your editing behaviour both on articles and their talk pages along with all the nonsense and lies you come out with. You claim no evidence of my thoughts on your outright bias and problems? I have shown you the evidence and you simply ignore and carry on regardless. Mabuska(talk) 17:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)- As a side note I was surprised to see The Banner post this AN/I as soon as they did. I would have given it a little longer before filing it personally, but I was tagged in this discussion and felt I had to share my thoughts on the incivility, incompetence, lies and possibility of sockpuppetry. And to show how serious it is and for Iamdmonah's enlightenment: The Banner and me as far as I am aware don't exactly get on with each other and disagree quite a lot on various Irish related matters. This must be the first time we agree on something, but most likely as its based soundly on Wikipedia policy and editorial behaviour and nothing else. Mabuska (talk) 18:00, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
A talk page is somewhere editors can express their opinions and ways to improve the article, so I did not believe I was in the wrong making those statements.
- I have already pointed out to you WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:SOAPBOX and much of the content of your comments fell foul of it and unfortunately I indulged by responding to the absurdities you came out with.Obviously, their accusations are based on their Ulster loyalist/Unionist views which they have repeatedly demonstrated, and I dont believe I need to provide any evidence for this– you can simply check the SAME TALK PAGES on which my edits were on.
- Also here we go again with the lies. Show any proof to back up this statement. Please I implore you to stop lying and provide evidence. And you won't as you can't as there is none. But please go on provide it if you can. Mabuska (talk) 18:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I do not wish to argue. I agree with you that everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Again, all of my edits you have detailed or on talk pages, not the actual wikipedia page- therefore your allegation my edits in pages are influenced by my political views are invalid– and you have yet to provide evidence to the contrary. I respectfully disagree with your other allegations. I do not wish to continue this conversation– but I thank you for explaining your POV.
IP hopper and ad-hominem attacks / ignoring consensus
104.15.130.191 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) appears to be the same problematic editor as 67.48.200.162 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) who made ad-hominem attacks related to Hyman_G._Rickover in this edit and received a final warning. Both IPs from Austin Texas arguing for and adding a "resources" section in Hyman G. Rickover.
105.15.130.19 is continuing ad-hominem attacks in this edit. Then ignoring consensus on the talk page, restoring the material that nobody else supported.
Looking at the dialogue on User_talk:67.48.200.162, that editor's false accusation of Andrew Englehart wikihounding, and the continuing ad-hominem comments regarding folks s/he disagrees with, it seems this editor is no here to collaborate. Toddst1 (talk) 19:11, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:OWNBEHAVIOR by User:Fowler&fowler
Hello, I recently responded to an edit request made at Talk:India and encountered some problematic ownership-mentality behavior by another editor who appears to be a frequent contributor to the page. I initially declined to fulfill the request, but implemented it after a response from the editor that proposed it. Fowler&fowler reverted my change as being against consensus and responded with hostility. No consensus was linked to, but I think it's likely there is one. My concern is that the editor seems to think all changes to the article need to go through them. I was met with this response to my implementing the edit request. There was no inline comment in the article warning against adding the hatnote, or anything on the talk page that communicated that there was a consensus that Names of India was an unacceptable article to link to. I calmly responded that I objected to the editor's characterization of my edit as "random nonsense," and that I expected an apology. In their response, the editor displayed clear WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. I decided to bring it here because I noticed a pattern of such responses by this editor, and I'm concerned they could have a chilling affect on discussion. The editor seems to frequently dismiss suggestions with rude and condescending responses, including implying that nobody should edit the article while they're "on vacation." Here are some sections on the talk page that point to a pattern of problematic behavior:
It seems to go back pretty far. I think the following comment from #5 above epitomizes this behavior:
It sounds ridiculous. Silly. Awful. I'm returning to my vacation. Consensus does not mean that two people can write claptrap and agree with each other. I'm returning to my vacation, like I just said. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:24, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
This editor probably just needs some reminders from an admin on Wikipedia policies, namely WP:AGF, WP:OWN, and WP:CIVIL. Thanks. — Tartan357 (Talk) 03:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please don't answer edit requests and then parry grumpy editors with pointless arguments. Yes, Fowler's objection ("This is an FA. We can't just randomly add nonsense") was over the top and Fowler should have noted that the reason the edit was objectionable would not be apparent to those unfamiliar with the topic. However, Fowler did not get personal: the assertion was that the link was nonsense. Articles like this (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan) attract a lot of inappropriate edits. People answering edit requests should take the hint that there is no consensus for the addition since it was reverted, and move on. It certainly does not warrant ANI. Johnuniq (talk) 03:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: I don't doubt that there was no consensus since it was reverted. I only made the one edit. I don't see how I failed to "take the hint." I'm concerned about the pattern of ownership behavior by this user. And Fowler did absolutely get personal in their most recent response. I noticed a longstanding pattern of uncivil behavior that appeared disruptive, so I took it to ANI. — Tartan357 (Talk) 03:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Shahnwaz aalam
BLOCKED | |
per WP:CIR, WP:COMMUNICATE by User:El C. (non-admin closure) --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 17:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Shahnwaz aalam (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)
This user has persistently engaged in edits of a promotional nature, either about themself or about various internet peronalities. Besides the deleted articles, they have also kept adding obvious copyvios to Commons. In any case, they have not engaged on talk page or any other type of constructive editing and they appear clearly WP:NOTHERE. Could an admin take a look at this and quite probably indef them (the pictures on commons need to be deleted too). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I just reverted an edit of their's to Wikipedia talk:Contributing to Wikipedia. This calls for a CIR block. Chris Troutman (talk) 23:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Their latest edit to their sandbox, which appear to be starting to write an instruction guide on android app development, are not good signs either in this regard. I have of course also filed a thread at Commons regarding their problematic copyvios, if there's any admin here who's also an admin on Commons and can deal with it. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- This user's most recent edit was to vandalise my sandbox. --David Biddulph (talk) 15:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Blocked indefinitely — a WP:CIR, WP:COMMUNICATE block. El_C 15:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Centre of Muslims
(non-admin closure) No need for admin attention here. This is currently being discussed productively on the MfD page. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As-Salam O Alaikum!
I recently created Wikiproject Centre of Muslims. It is created to improve the articles about places with more than 80% of Muslim Population. After sometime the percentage could be reduced to 50% (places with majority Muslim Population). Similar wikiprojects are working like in the case of [Australia], The only difference is that their scope is countrywide and scope of this Wikiproject is larger, i.e Muslim World.
It was put on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Centre of Muslims because of solo participant. Someone also asked that "Would Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam be interested in this project as a Geography task force?" and I think that Centre of Muslims project should be merged with Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam's Geography task force. --Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry at Who Are You
(The only reason I did not put this at WP:SPI is the sheer amount of IPs involved.) Who Are You is experiencing massive vandalism by multiple IPs all in a short time frame. This can not be a coincidence, as the IPs have all started vandalizing spontaneity. I suspect the sockpuppet master to be SoggyEggs3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as it's first edit was at Who Are You. Can an administrator investigate these IPs? Thanks. SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 20:24, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think there's something else going on at this point, looks like some type of meme. I've semi-protected the page for 3 days to see if this will calm things down. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yep, I am thinking that it is stemming from a TikTok campaign to vandalize Wikipedia, several pages have been requested for semi-protection at WP:RFPP relating to this, including:
There may be more targeted pages that I am not aware of or are not yet at WP:RFPP. 73.96.106.231 (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- All of the pages have been protected for 3 days at this time. Apparently some TikTok user called Chunkysdead is stirring this up. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I found Chunkysdead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), but I'm not sure if this is Chunky, a fan, or just a random person that happened to have the same username as Chunky. SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 20:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- If it was that user, the only relevant TikTok post would be this one, which directly addresses the Wikipedia for motivational speaker, which was in response to this. That would be the reason for the vandalism on motivational speaker. Certainly appears to be a connection between the other pages and motivational speaker. The vandalism on them all began at near the same time, but the TikTok post doesn't mention the others. She includes Wikipedia links on many of her posts, so it might just be people going back to some posts in response to video A, and spamming those ones. Given the fast-paced nature of TikTok, I wouldn't expect the issue to persist, though there are probably other already-vandalised pages. And honestly, the connection is weird. Vandalism-like edit summaries are used, which is unusual if it were a legitimate horde of people responding to a TikTok. Not to mention the fact that many of these IPs only edit one of each of the pages and not any other presumed related pages. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Also Modern Day Romance, which I found from recent changes. Not sure what the pattern is here, although I'm not sure if we're going to get that many more edits from this. Enterprisey (talk!) 22:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- There's a few still whittering away in a dusty corner at Thank God (film), and a few at RFPP (which I think should be left unprotected if possible). It seems to be following the familiar board-invasion style of starting strong, coming across the admins, then branching off and fading out. -- zzuuzz(talk) 22:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- The Chunkysdeaders are now targeting Campfire Songs (album) because she apparently mentioned it. This might give us a clue of the vandals' editing pattern. SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 23:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- There's a few still whittering away in a dusty corner at Thank God (film), and a few at RFPP (which I think should be left unprotected if possible). It seems to be following the familiar board-invasion style of starting strong, coming across the admins, then branching off and fading out. -- zzuuzz(talk) 22:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Repeated racist screed posted to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters
Blocked 93.106.33.80 for one week as per WP:DISRUPT by User:El C (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 19:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can an administrator please block User:93.106.33.80? He or she is repeatedly posting a racist screed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 14:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Warned. El_C 14:59, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- @El C: The behavior is continuing. ElKevbo (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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Blocked – for a period of one week. El_C 15:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I took the liberty of revdelling that. --Deep fried okra (schalte ein) 17:08, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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- @El C: The behavior is continuing. ElKevbo (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Deletion of a userpage
Hello. Could an admin please delete Aaslamchaudhry as a copyvio from there? Due to the edit filter I am unable to tag it for speedy deletion. Thanks, 217.68.167.73 (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
We are going to have to protect Slate Star Codex from anonymous IPs
Slate Star Codex is now protected from anonymous IPs; problem solved. (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/135.180.70.84
We are going to have to protect Slate Star Codex from anonymous IPs, because they are posting the full name of someone who wishes to keep it private. I have already asked the Oversight community to remove the edits from the page history, which they do, but the IP keeps adding more edits violating Scott Alexander’s privacy. Also, clean up the history again. SkylabField (talk) 07:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- SkylabField, if it's in the NYT then there's not a lot we can do to put the genie back in the bottle, even if it is Cade Metz (who has a long history of being used by griefers for fact-washing). I note that the article doesn't mention his affinity for racist hereditarianism, is there a reason for that? A laudatory article with supportive comments from National Review and Washington Examiner is usually a red flag for missing critical commentary. Guy(help!) 08:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, the issue is that the IP kept trying to put Scott Alexander’s full name in the Slate Star Codex page. No, it hasn’t been published in the NYT (as I type this). The other stuff you bring up can be discussed over at Talk:Slate Star Codex; I do not have a dog in that fight (except to point out that the reason why you’re seeing national Review/Washington Examiner stuff is because those are the reliable sources devoting entire articles to Slate Start Codex right now). SkylabField (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive Edits Restored After Block Again
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User talk:84.203.69.48 was blocked on June 13, 2020 for 60 hours due to disruptive editing. They were blocked yet again on June 16, 2020 for a week due to restoring the same disruptive edits after the first block was lifted. Now, the IP has restored the same disruptive edits yet again after the second block's lift. The user has not learned their lesson. They've been blocked twice in the same month for the same issues. A longer block needs to be enforced. Armegon (talk) 05:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for a month this time. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Qetuop1's legal threats
BLOCKED | |
for making legal threats by User:Orangemike (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 19:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
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Qetuop1 is making legal threats on me, see this diff. They have also received a level 4 warning from SuperGoose007. ◊PRAHLADbalaji (M•T•A•C) This message was left at 19:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked by Orangemike. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
2600:8800:9D80:15E5:E9BE:644A:13B0:88D
Moved to WP:SPI. (non-admin closure) {{3125A talk}} 13:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
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2600:8800:9D80:15E5:E9BE:644A:13B0:88D (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted a riddle [182] which is about their username containing "Takoda". The answer might be Takodathagod (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) a user who was blocked 3 years ago for vandalism. Can an admin make sure Takoda isn't trying to ban evade? SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 04:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Moved to WP:SPI, can close now SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 04:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Brysonjett
(non-admin closure)No need for further action, user blocked, unblock declined, TPA revoked, pointed to UTRS. Nothing more to see here. Heiro 18:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC) |
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A user with some serious WP:CIR issues.
- Edit warring on an BLP to insert uncited material about their friend who apparently knows the famous person. 4 insertion, I reverted them but stopped at 3 reverts, someone needs to address the last re-insertion into the BLP.
- After coming off a recent block they re-inserted a pretty egregious 4 year old vandal edit on the blocking admins userpage
- then proceeded to play dumb that it was even them, see exchange here User talk:Brysonjett#June 2020
- Admin gave them a benefit of a doubt (block rational = (Disruptive editing I was tempted just to block indefinitely as WP:NOTHERE given the warnings and recent edit warring, but I'll give one last chance.[183]))
- Looking at their contribs, I was unable to find one constructrive or productive edit going all the way back to Sept 2019 when the account was created.
- Clearly WP:NOTHERE and WP:CIR come into play. Heiro 16:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- They are also harassing this editor [184] and have continued with this after notified of this ANI. Heiro 16:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. @Drmies:, can you also revoke talkpage access? Per "Wtf did i do to get blocked? [185]" Heiro 16:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Nicoljaus Sockpuppet
BLOCKED | |
Nicoljaus blocked as per WP:SOCK for 3 months by User:Callanecc. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nicoljaus (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 05:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC) |
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On the Taras Bulba-Borovets there is a user 93.157.203.231 who is almost certainly a sockpuppet of Nicoljaus who is reverting edits that cite RS. One such example can be found here. Nicoljaus has been blocked four times from the English Wiki for edit warring and various other infractions such as making personal attacks, and has been banned indefinitely from the Russian Wiki for the same reasons. I do not want to start an edit war on the page so if an administrator could intervene and try to mediate the situation I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much.2601:143:4200:E070:2110:34E3:9829:3A4 (talk) 18:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Done, semiprotected for 3 months. Any reason the lede does not say the guy was a Holocaust perpetrator, only that he was a resistance fighter?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- The similar problem in the article Dmitry Medvedev (partisan). Semi-protection would be nice.--128.68.221.32 (talk) 05:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
It should be noted that 118.68.221.32 is most likely a Nicoljaus sock puppet as well and should be blocked. Ctvaughn555 (talk) 06:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you’re saying. I never said that Nicoljaus was currently blocked. (On the English Wiki that is.)Ctvaughn555 (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Now as Nicoljaus has indeed been blocked the topic can probably be closed.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
2601:188:C300:14B9:51C:5874:485F:4B04
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- 2601:188:C300:14B9:51C:5874:485F:4B04 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This IP keeps removing content at Gary Wheaton (edit talk history links watch logs), and claims to be the subject of the article in question in their edit summaries. Can an administrator investigate this IP and verify that the IP is actually the person they are claiming to be? Thanks. SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 22:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Please restore Sheila Ford Hamp
(non-admin closure) The article has been restored at mainspace via passing through WP:AFC ~ Amkgp 💬 17:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
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Newest female owner of Detroit Lions keeps getting deleted. Please restore so it can be built by community.16:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ConstantPlancks (talk • contribs)
- Sheila Ford Hamp did not had enough sources and citations as written to remain published. Thus, it was moved to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where it can incubate the article with minimal disruption. For information, Draft:Sheila Ford Hamp has been declined once as it failed to meet WP:GNG. Thus , it needs more eyes to review before moving to mainspace. The editor also engaged in removing speedy delete WP:R2 notice by himself/herself. Thank you. ~ Amkgp💬 16:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Plenty of sources. One of a handful of female NFL owners and chairpersons. Not sure what planet this doesn't meet GNG guidelines. Every male NFL owner is notable. ConstantPlancks (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- ConstantPlancks, Just for future creations always keep in mind the Wikipedia General Notability Guidelines (GNG). Its important here. Wikipedia needs reliable sources to establish notability of any article inclusion. Again, thanks to Theroadislong for helping out to make article Sheila Ford Hamp ready for mainspace. ~ Amkgp 💬 17:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Plenty of sources. One of a handful of female NFL owners and chairpersons. Not sure what planet this doesn't meet GNG guidelines. Every male NFL owner is notable. ConstantPlancks (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Joel B. Lewis and I's incivillity
I'm with EgRoll97. Let's just move on from this spat in good faith, without admonishments, as the path of least resistance. These things happen. Deescalation is good. The basis for the dispute can now be resolved through the RfC. Hopefully, by tomorrow, this bit of tension will be but a memory. El_C 22:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC) |
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Notified [186]
For context: A post on was made on the BLP noticeboard regarding Bangladeshi diplomat Saida Muna Tasneem from an associate asking to remove information about an embarassing incident in 2004 where Tasneem was recalled from the United Nations after her husband spent a large amount of money at a strip club which he said was fraudulent. Nomoskedasticity suggested that the passage should be removed, as it did not directly relate to Tasneem, I said that it probably should be included in some capacity, diff. Nomoskedasticity made the edits diff which reduced the paragraph down to "The Bangladeshi Ministry of Foreign Affairs recalled Tasneem from her posting to Bangladesh's United Nations mission in June 2004" the wording of the BBC report[1] made it clear that the recall was directly to do with the strip club row, rather than anything to do with Tasneem's conduct, so I made an addition of "for issues unrelated to her conduct" to clarify the wording, which could be considered misleading otherwise. diff. Joel B. Lewis undid the edit, saying in his edit summary that "this is a terrible addition" diff
Joel B. Lewis then pinged me on the talk page and gave me an extended edit summary diff which I found to be condescending stating that it was "personal interpretation" despite that BBC news title said it was "over" the row. I accept that in retrospect that the link was not definitively proved in the article body, but the edit was made in good faith to avoid misleading negative statements in a BLP. As it was three in the morning and I was in a foul mood I snapped back. diff calling the comment "rude" and "asinine", which in retrospect was uncivil and I apologise for. I then subsequently moved the thread to the BLP noticeboard as I thought that the discussion was better served by being linked to the main BLP thread, where there were more eyes and potential contributors to solve the issue. diff diff Joel B. Lewis took umbrage about the fact that I moved his comment and crossed out the discussion on the BLP noticeboard diff and undid my removal from the talk page diff
Joel B. Lewis then opened up a section on my talk page, again in a condescending tone stating that I did not comprehend the first sentence of his discussion on the talk page diff. I did, I interpreted that the "this is a terrible addition" was merely the opening statement of his full edit summary rather than that comment retracting it. I then gave a reply again trying to clarify why I didn't like the tone of the edit summary and asking for kindness diff. Joel B. Lewis replied that I had a "lack of grace" for not accepting his non-apology and accusing me of engaging in "aggressive whining". diff
I ask that both Joel and I be admonished for incivility and for not assuming good faith. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Diplomat recalled over strip club row". BBC News - South Asia. 8 June 2004. Retrieved 22 December 2019.
- What is there to say? I mistakenly submitted an edit with a poor edit summary and immediately took to the talk page to apologize for it; everything else is a massive failure to AGF by Hemiauchenia. I stand 100% behind "aggressive whining" and I support their request to be admonished for their behavior. --JBL (talk) 16:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- All I am asking for is that you treat other editors with kindness, and don't condescend them when they make edits you disagree with, and try to understand their perspective. I agree that I failed in this too, but you don't seem to understand why I was not appreciative of your sharp tone. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm rather puzzled about the "consensus" to remove this in the first place, since the embarrassment that the incident caused is directly tied to the ambassador's recall. Is the only reason for this removal because the ambassador's PR person asked for its removal? If so, that's a pretty terrible thing for us to accede to, especially since the explanation for the recall is reported by the BBC and, while it might be embarrassing, isn't particularly controversial or contentious from a BLP perspective. To see it as unrelated to Tasneem's career if it has impacted it so directly also seems a disingenuous claim. Grandpallama (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be included in some capacity, as being recalled seems like a big deal. BLP noticeboard discussions tend to favour the complaints of article subjects in my experience. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Subject complaints about undue weight given to largely irrelevant issues should be taken into consideration, as should complaints about material that might endanger the safety and/or privacy of the subject. Complaints about the properly sourced inclusion of a scandal that affected a career ambassador's posting (sixteen years ago!) that make laughably false claims about how it has no bearing on her career should not be entertained. Grandpallama (talk) 18:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- The primary BLP issue here is actually not the subject but her husband. The article is about the subject. Details of what her husband did that are not important to understanding the subject therefore should be removed. I think most of us at BLP don't really care much about what the subject thinks, we just want to be fair to living persons, especially non notable ones and don't try to punish people just because their complaint was imperfect by ignoring legitimate issues in the article. These sort of issues are often tricky to deal with. For example, one case I recall is about a convicted murderer on death row who has became a bit of a cause célèbre. One of the issues that arose there is that one of the subject's claims is that the boyfriend of his alleged victim who was a police officer in the department that investigated him may be the perpetrator. There doesn't seem to have been any good evidence for this, but since it's part of his defence and covered in several RS, it sort of seems we should present it in some fashion yet it has strong BLP implications. There are a bunch of other claims in his defence IIRC some of which also raise BLP issues. Meanwhile this subject has sort and received significant attention in relation to his appeal for that particular conviction and appears notable. However there are other allegations about him of slightly related conduct that he was investigated for but never convicted of possibly in part because it was felt not worth the effort after the death penalty conviction, yet it seems these allegations were considered in his appeals. These allegations are potentially covered in RS. (I've never been sure since people have kept trying to add court records.) How much detail to cover is again a tricky BLP question. Given the cause célèbre nature of the case, we get a lot of people advocating on either side but I'm fairly sure none of them are any of the actual subjects. Most of us at BLPN do our best to put aside the advocacy and try to work out what is supported by BLP and or other policies and guidelines to be fair to all involved. Nil Einne (talk) 19:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Subject complaints about undue weight given to largely irrelevant issues should be taken into consideration, as should complaints about material that might endanger the safety and/or privacy of the subject. Complaints about the properly sourced inclusion of a scandal that affected a career ambassador's posting (sixteen years ago!) that make laughably false claims about how it has no bearing on her career should not be entertained. Grandpallama (talk) 18:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be included in some capacity, as being recalled seems like a big deal. BLP noticeboard discussions tend to favour the complaints of article subjects in my experience. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- As an aside, I have now opened a RfC on Tasneem Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm making a very bold assumption in asking this, but, is it not possible for both of you to move on from this, and just avoid each other? It would certainly be better than a prolonged dispute here, leading to everyone complaining no matter what happens. Both of you seem to have issued some form of apology to the other, so this discussion on ANI seems somewhat unnecessary. EggRoll97 (talk) 18:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
User pushing alt-right talking points
BLOCKED | |
Blocked indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE by Drmies. Guy (help!) 09:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
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RandomUser3510 (talk · contribs)
Literally all but three of RandomUser3510's edits in this and the past two years has been WP:CIVILPOV-pushing alt-right talking points at different articles. This includes equating the ADL to white supremacists, acting like "white pride" isn't just a white supremacist idea, even saying that it's fringe and that "the article is racist against white people"; and even citing a Youtube channel that promotes Holocaust denial conspiracy theories to push an out-of-context quote about Jewish people promoting multiculturalism. There's also acting like the South African farm attacks are lead by politicians and the (ever-recurring) red flag of saying that noted neo-Nazi Lana Lokteff is somehow not a white supremacist while insisting Sarah Jeong should be labelled racist. After a short break, he continued promoting the white genocide conspiracy theory, referred to awareness that "white pride" is a neo-Nazi slogan as "anti-white propaganda", and said that trying to guide someone away from racism was a personal attack. Past versions of his user page expressed contempt for CNN and the SPLC, our acceptance of which apparently makes us a cancer
Again, literally all but three of their edits in 2018 to 2020 are this sort of behavior (two of [187] suggest belief in conspiracy theories) try to make mainstream ideas from the alt-right. (Going into prior years, posts with WP:GEVAL for conspiracy theories is nothing new). If he is not an alt-right troll, the continued opposition to this should have been a wake up call at some point -- but let's face it, the alt-right's tactics are to pretend to be civilized academics and professionals who just have alternative views so they can cry 'so much for the tolerant left' whenever anyone points out what the alt-right really is. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Go ahead and ban me do your worst. RandomUser3510 (talk) 22:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- (non-admin comment) Is that an offer which can't be refused? Narky Blert (talk) 22:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
@Ian.thomson: You made your case; what action do you propose? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 22:24, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, RandomUser3510 has suggested one course of action, though they may have gotten block and ban confused. At a minimum, a topic ban from pages relating to race, racism, and nationalism is clearly needed. Given their conspiracy theory related edits and the overlap between CTs, nationalism, and politics, a ban from politics in general might also be a good idea. However, I'd understand if the community feels that the few articles he's edited in those areas outside of race have not yet merited a topic ban. I would see that as room for us to test the user. I would also be comfortable if we just indefinitely blocked him, as the sheer number of missed wake up calls make it rather hard to assume his behavior is simple naivety and the alt-right doesn't need any voice at any table. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm convinced this user shouldn't be here and think a site ban is more appropriate. They haven't demonstrated that they'd be productive anywhere else. However, it undermines your point when you say that calling someone racist is "guiding someone away from racism." True or not, it's a personal attack.--v/r - TP 22:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Off topic, but I didn't call the IP racist, I pointed out that the idea they were defending is inherently racist and said that they need to rethink their lives if that wasn't their intention. That post was made with the assumption that they do not see themselves that way. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ian.thomson, I agree with your analysis. I support a topic ban from race politics broadly construed, and a wait-and-see approach outside that field. Guy(help!) 22:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Ian.thomson:Your accusation about holocaust denial is totally false btw even a few years ago. All I did back then was link to a video of someone speaking: it doesn't mean I endorse the channel it is on or its views (I do believe the holocaust happened). But again if your reaction to dissent is to simply delete me from existence go ahead make my day. RandomUser3510 (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- And once again, you're lying about what I've written. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Ian.thomson:Your accusation about holocaust denial is totally false btw even a few years ago. All I did back then was link to a video of someone speaking: it doesn't mean I endorse the channel it is on or its views (I do believe the holocaust happened). But again if your reaction to dissent is to simply delete me from existence go ahead make my day. RandomUser3510 (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm convinced this user shouldn't be here and think a site ban is more appropriate. They haven't demonstrated that they'd be productive anywhere else. However, it undermines your point when you say that calling someone racist is "guiding someone away from racism." True or not, it's a personal attack.--v/r - TP 22:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- And right after I pointed out the alt-right's tactic of pretending to be civilized so they can cry 'so much for the tolerant left,' RandomUser3510's user page is pretty much a variation on 'so much for the tolerant left.' That's about as much confirmation from RandomUser3510 as to why he's here as we're going to get. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Given the user doesn't really edit outside this topic area, and per WP:NONAZIS, a sitewide block/ban seems appropriate. GorillaWarfare(talk) 22:58, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Good RandomUser3510 (talk) 23:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I found this, but that's about it. I applied a NOTHERE block--yes, their edits are a pretty comprehensive run-down of alt-right talking points (well, forum posts), from the Seth Rich conspiracy and the Sarah Jeong harassment to White genocide. Drmies (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I noticed the other day that it had been over two years since RandomUser3510 made an edit to an article: 20 June 2018 was their last one before yesterday and today. [188] Since then, they've simply been using Wikipedia to post comments on talk pages. I think a "NOTHERE" indef block is exactly what was needed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:20, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- User requested unblock on UTRS. Among other things, I told them to appeal on their talk page Special:permalink/964185256#UTRS 31439 is where I replied on their talk page. --Deep fried okra(schalte ein) 01:59, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- He claimed at UTRS that he could follow a suggestion to edit about video games. I see no such suggestion. I saw no video game edits. Have I missed something? If this is not the case, I'm in favor of an indefinite site ban. --Deep fried okra(schalte ein) 02:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Video games are a socially contentious topic too though.
And didn't he ask to be banned?He admitted overreacting, but still... The Moose 02:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC) - My guess would be Drmies comment and link above. He said they found this edit to be about the only thing constructive. But that is just a guess. PackMecEng (talk) 02:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- PackMecEng, "about" is correct--there may be one or two more, but yeah. Drmies (talk) 04:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Video games are a socially contentious topic too though.
- He claimed at UTRS that he could follow a suggestion to edit about video games. I see no such suggestion. I saw no video game edits. Have I missed something? If this is not the case, I'm in favor of an indefinite site ban. --Deep fried okra(schalte ein) 02:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think a NOTHERE block is entirely appropriate, based on my review of their contribution history. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
General dickishness
No. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
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General dickishness from Bloom6132 (talk · contribs) at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Major League Baseball players with a home run in their first major league at bat/archive1 [189] [190] [191]. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oh come on. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:42, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Theochino
Please see the comment here, hopefully why I find this inappropriate does not require explanation. --JBL (talk) 20:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Jeez, JBL, you sure picked a high-traffic page for your complaint! For your own privacy, might I suggest that next time, you contact an admin personally? (I, for one, am at your disposal, so please don't hesitate.) Anyway, I have revdeleted and will have a word with Theochino about WP:OUTING. El_C 21:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive edits by 1292simon
1292simon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is constantly removing properly sourced edits claiming that they are not sourced on the BMW 5 Series (F10) page. Furthermore, this user is also removing other content (such as transmission type, layout and reliable sources) without an explanation. He was previously warned to stop this disruption but instead of avoiding this, this user continues disrupting the page without seeking proper consensus on the article talkpage.U1 quattro TALK 04:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Now this user is doing the same at the BMW 5 Series (G30) page. I request the administration to take appropriate action.U1 quattro TALK 04:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- No action has been taken yet as this user continues to remove content without any explanation.U1 quattro TALK 03:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive edits by Cristiano 700 abr
I noticed that the user Cristiano 700 abr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is continuously vandalizing the article Mashrafe Mortaza (edit talk history links watch logs), removing references without giving clear reason. I warned the editor once but the editor had ignored the warning. Abishe (talk) 05:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I just warned them again, on something like this just escalate the warnings and then use WP:AIV if they don't stop. The Moose 06:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Wikipal11119
- Wikipal11119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I think Wikipal11119 could do with some guidance. I'm not convinced this editor properly understands WP:BLP. Guy (help!) 20:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- I mention this only in passing and haven't had time to do a thorough search, but that username is oddly similar to the recently blocked Ishita1119. CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 06:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- CaptainEek, looks like a coincidence, article focus is very different I think. Guy (help!) 10:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Miya people and WP:MOSIS, WP:NPOV, WP:OR issues relating to user:UserNumber
This is in response to the ANI notice by UserNumber (talk · contribs) (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1039#Disruptive_user_Chaipau) which I failed to notice in time since no notice was left on my talk page. In that ANI report they make voluminous accusations of "disruptive" editing by me. This is, of course, incorrect since I am trying to bring the article in line with standard Wikipedia policies and styles. The policies and styles with which Miya people is not aligned, IMHO, are given here.
- In the revert [192] UserNumber has violated a number of different policies and styles that guide Wikipedia.
- WP:MOSIS - UserNumbers have inserted more Indic scripts into the Info-box and have cluttered the lead with meanings. This makes the article less readable.
- WP:NPOV and WP:OR - UserNumbers has re-inserted a link to a dictionary that gives the meaning of Miya in Bengali. This is WP:OR because it does not say anything about the etymology of the word Miya in this particular case in Assam, given also that Miya is a widely used honorific in South Asia, which derives from Persian.
- In the revert [193], UserNumber
- is trying to push for a POV by re-inserting a Bengali article, even as a citation in English already exists supporting the text. Bengali op-eds should be avoided for the following reasons (1) WP:NOENG and (2) the express opinion of a prominent Miya poet himself who says: "It is essentially an initiative to upset the amplified efforts made by some Bengali ultra-nationalists – with roots in West Bengal – on the Char Chapori Muslims of Assam to discard the Assamese language for Bengali. The campaign by these groups has been going on in our areas since 1991." ([194]). As a result, in this article, we should be using op-ed type sources only to demonstrate an opinion that exists and not to assert any facts, if we have to use them at all.
- is inserting predatory journal articles (from [195])
I have tried to discuss some these issues in Talk:Miya_people#Bengali, but it seems UserNumbers is either adamant on pushing a particular point of view or displaying WP:OWN.
I request comments here to resolve which policies and styles are relevant here and how we could best implement them.
Chaipau (talk) 18:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I will address this again. I added ONE Indic script (Assamese script) in the infobox of the Miya article. For most people groups-related articles such as Tamils, Punjabis and Bengalis, they have Indic script in the infobox at least. WP:MOSIS only applies if there are MANY Indic scripts which makes the article MESSY.
- Secondly, the reason why I insert the dictionary definition is because the term "Miya" is used pejoratively towards the people to make it known that their origin is in Bengal. The Persian word is Mian, and it became Miya in Bengali. I am well aware that their language is Assamese, but in this specific case, Miya is a Bengali term which Assam's people use to discriminate Bengal-origin Muslims.
- These are the only two problems I see here. I do not see any mistake I have made. Only one of these "problems" include me adding the words "Bengali" to the article and suddenly you accuse me of pushing POV. I wasn't PURPOSELY adding predatory journal articles, they were added by another user and perhaps came back whilst I was undoing your mischievous edits (which involves claiming Miya is Urdu etc.). UserNumber (talk) 19:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- Also, Admins please check this edit of Chaipau: here!, you will see he added Latin to the native name section, and also called Miya people as the descendant of "peasants". UserNumber (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @UserNumber:
- You are imagining WP:MOSIS; please read carefully: "Avoid the use of Indic scripts in the lead sections or infoboxes. Instead, use International Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation guides, which are more international. Exceptions are articles on the script itself, articles on a language that uses the script, and articles on texts originally written in a particular script." The result of this RfC is a clear "No" on the question "Should we allow for Indicscript/s in infoboxes?"
- The use of pejorative use of Miya is cited from Baruah 2019. You don't need a Bangla dictionary, which is WP:OR (are you trying to say something more than what the sources say?)
- I had to correct you on a number of occasions. Here you have inserted a link to indilens.com, a news portal to claim that the immigration started during the Bengal Presidency period ([196]) Assam left Bengal presidency
endedin 1873/1874 and the immigration started around 1911. Here you have inserted "Bengali Muslim" whereas Miya people themselves make a distinction between that term and "Bengal-origin Muslims" ([197]) Either you are trying to push a current political agenda in Wikipedia or you are unaware of the nuances of the issues regarding the article. In any case you are clearly standing in the way of an WP:NPOV article.
- Chaipau (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- @UserNumber:
- @UserNumber: I do think that WP:OR is a recurring issue when it comes to your overall editing.[198][199][200] These are some of the diffs I personally watched months ago and your messages show that these problems are not going to resolve anytime soon. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 18:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Chaipau is also adding promotional images (unreliable) to history of Assam. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Assam&diff=960745019&oldid=960732362 . 2409:4065:93:6D9C:15A6:1400:78FE:B4FA (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Chaipau, you are now lying against me. These links were insterted in my edits during the merge and move of information from the Na Asamiya article. These weren't even my original edits, I was just doing some merges. I have already discussed the "Bengali Muslim" issue and this discussion has been RESOLVED as I agree that Bengal-origin Muslims is better. Stop bringing old edits which I myself no longer agree with. You are doing the same as Aman Kumar Goel is doing, by bringing up past edits which have already been RESOLVED. UserNumber (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Chaipau, the only CURRENT ISSUE (we're not in the past) is Miya being a Bengali word of Persian origin. The only reason I am adding Bengali dictionary references is because YOU keep removing the fact that it is a Bengali VARIANT. In Persian it is MIAN. The reason why it is pronounced MIYA is because people discriminate these Muslims because they are of "Bengal-origin". UserNumber (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- @UserNumber: Before you call others liars, do take care and click on the diffs I have provided. The evidence of what you have inserted are right here. All your claims are WP:OR unless you provide WP:RS (not someone's op-ed) that directly supports your claim. Furthermore, the Bengali romanization of the word is Miah; the Urdu romanization is Mian; but the romanization used here is Miya which is different from the Bengali romanization. In your edit here ([201]), you tacitly admit that Miya is not the Bengali romanization. Chaipau (talk) 21:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Chaipau, the only CURRENT ISSUE (we're not in the past) is Miya being a Bengali word of Persian origin. The only reason I am adding Bengali dictionary references is because YOU keep removing the fact that it is a Bengali VARIANT. In Persian it is MIAN. The reason why it is pronounced MIYA is because people discriminate these Muslims because they are of "Bengal-origin". UserNumber (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm not gonna try and guess who's in the right, but reading through these messages, I don't see any particular evidence of the "chronic, intractable behavioral problems" which would warrant opening a discussion here. A content dispute such as this would be far better suited for the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Opening tit-for-tat ANI discussions are not gonna lead to any sort of meaningful resolution.
Alivardi(talk) 00:39, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Alivardi: Thank you for your comment. I have not received any reply from UserNumber on policies and styles, even after I have pointed them out. Here they are reiterating the same argument they made earlier ([202]). If we have WP:IDHT then it means we will land up here again. Also, this was a response to an archived notice, not a new one. Thanks. Chaipau (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think WP:DRN will resolve the conduct issues with UserNumber since he is not understanding WP:OR and is now accusing others of "lying" (see WP:NPA). Aman Kumar Goel(Talk) 03:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- It seems user:UserNumber is asking for help as he did here ([203]), and user:Alivardi responded in this section ([204]) I am not sure whether soliciting or offering help for a particular side in this situation is appropriate (WP:CANVAS?). It seems user:UserNumber and user:Alivardi have collaborated on a number different projects. Nevertheless, this is not an attack on any user, but a discussion of issues around WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:MOSIS etc., so we do not have an (WP:IDHT) situation as we did in Miya people and we can move forward. Chaipau (talk) 14:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
MixedButHumann
This user consistently edits to push a pro-Aramean POV, and has frequently made personal attacks against myself. I have provided the evidence to demonstrate that in a modern context there is academic consensus that Arameans are considered coterminous with Assyrians, e.g. Ethno-cultural and Religious Identity of Syrian Orthodox Christians, Sargon Donabed & Shamiran Mako (2009), p. 72, UNPO: Assyria, Who Are The Assyrians?, Nicholas Aljeloo (2000), Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia, John A. Shoup (2011), p. 30, Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East, ed. Paul S Rowe (2018), p. 357. I have attempted to engage the user in discussion, but he has continued to push his POV.
- At Sharbel Touma, the user demonstrates he is advocating his POV contrary to the academic consensus with no evidence [205]. Note in my edit on this article, I did not change the assertion that the person is Aramean, but pointed to the consensus that they are considered part of the Assyrian people. This is also evident at Jasar Takak, [206].
- At Jimmy Durmaz, the user has replaced reliable sourced content (BBC) with a link to a YouTube video to assert the person has Aramean ethnicity [207]. At Bishara (singer), this user has asserted a living person has Aramean ethnicity without providing a source [208].
- At Stateless nation, the user has restored content by a confirmed sockpuppet, which is unsupported by the source provided [209].
- At Chaldean Catholics, the user has removed sourced content that is contrary to his POV [210].
- At Assyrians in Israel, the user blanked the article without discussion and manipulated the sources to assert his POV, despite the sources supporting the existence of an Assyrian community in Israel [211].
- At Arameans, the user restored content added by a confirmed sockpuppet. The user's "sourced content" is from the Aramean Democratic Organization, not an academic source, and a book named "The Arameans; and their diaspora" with no other details, and cannot be found anywhere. The user points to the variations in languages to support his argument that the Arameans are a separate ethnic group to Assyrians, but this is not accepted in academia, as demonstrated by the sources provided.
This user has been warned to not perform disruptive edits twice [212] [213]. Mugsalot (talk) 20:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi user:Mugsalot
- As I already did let you know I did not POV anything on the edits I made. If you look at the sources I provided you can clearly see that the things I edited are stated by several historians, academici, and other objective websites etc and I did provide tens of sources.
- I find it very sad that you are kinda trying to change the situation. Because in fact I see you together with other Assyrians editing several Aramean-related pages and remove the Aramean name of several of articles (See talkpage of Assyrian people
- And again how can you state that I use a POV on Chaldean Catholics when I provide sources of objective Iraqi newswebsites? How can that be a POV?
- As last I want to warn all Wikipedia moderators for Assyrian nationalists on Wikipedia. There is an ongoing Wikipedia war about Assyrian articles with their goal to strengthen the Assyrian nationalism. There is a reddit page called ‘Assyrian that has 2.5000 members and they called up everyone to make a Wikipedia account to strengthen the Assyrian cause. Please see the next link:
- It’s clear that you are a pro-Assyrian if you look at the edits you made the past view months, this is not a personal attack, but facts that can be seen when someone watches your edits of the few past months.
- (Redacted)
- Note 3 of the 5 sources you provided in your text here above come from Assyrian nationalist who work for the Assyrian cause, that’s a POV. Sources like that cannot be used on Wikipedia. It’s a neutral place for sources with that are objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MixedButHumann (talk • contribs) 21:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note: om pages like Jimmy Durmaz and Sharbel Touma the sources were already speaking about them identifying as Arameans. Yet Assyrian nationalist with a POV changed this into ‘Assyrian’. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MixedButHumann (talk • contribs) 21:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann (talk) 21:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, please don't post links to offwiki coordination and definitely please don't cast aspersions about that. Anyway, I find your reply generally unresponsive to the evidence provided. Right now, you are likely to suffer sanctions for editing disruptively and tendentiously. El_C 21:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi user: El_C
- as I stated above the pages he mentioned, mentioned Arameans already and if you look on the pages you can see that the sources that are being used also use Aramean instead of Assyrian. It’s being changed by Assyrian nationalists.. please take a look at the sources mentioned in the articles, they all refer to Aramean people and not to Assyrians. Also isn’t a source of a person literally saying he’s Aramean in a interview more relevant than a source of a news website?
- MixedButHumann (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, you are still light on evidence. And I like my evidence in the form of diffs. No, BBC is preferred to Youtube in almost 100 percent of the times. El_C 23:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- -Ok, so the topicstarter agrees Sharbel Touma and Jasar Takak being og Aramean descent.
- -About Jimmy Durmaz I provided the YT-interview, because he literally stated in that video that he is from Aramean descent with his parents being from Turkey and Lebanon. I personally saw this as a source as you can literally see the person stating he’s Aramean, while news websites mostly pick it up from sources as Wikipedia. About Bishara Morad he’s a widely known young artist of Aramean descent if you look up on Google you’ll see him several times showing the Aramean flag with him.
- -stateless nation I reverted this back because Arameans are being seen as the indigenous people of Syria and Turkey without an own state. The sources that were provided by another editor were valid.
- -Chaldean Catholics I added the Aramean identity to the article, because there are Chaldean Catholics who besides Assyrian and Chaldean, identify as Aramean. I used a source of a telephone call with Ankawa.com one of Iraq’s biggest Christian news websites. The patriarch of the Chaldean church stated that the Chaldean Catholics are one people known under the Aramean name. [214]
- -Assyrians in Israel I redirected the page with Arameans in Israel, because the sources in the article were all speaking about the Syriac-Aramean nations and the article consulted the same information as Arameans in Israel[215], even the file used on the page of Assyrians in Israel had an Aramean flag left above the church doors. [216]
- Please, note that also the page Arameans in Israel was targeted by Assyrian POV that’s why it’s a protected page now.
- -There is a wikiproject:Aramea that wanted to improve Aramean related articles, till now there was no page referring to the modern Arameans and there was the need to create one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MixedButHumann (talk • contribs) 23:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, I don't know enough about the subject, but Assyrian has been the status quo ante. You are the one introducing new material, which per WP:ONUS:
the onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.
So, you discuss on the article talk page and avoid edit warring. If you reach an impasse on the article talk page, there are dispute resolution requests you can avail yourself of, like WP:3O, WP:RFC and WP:RSN. El_C 00:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)- To be honest, I don’t really get it. Even tho if it is the Status quo ante (who and When is this decided according to what?) how is it possible to identify someone with a name, that that person isn’t identifying him/herself with. That’s like erasing someone’s culture and identity? Or?MixedButHumann (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about mis/identifying names. It's very confusing. Anyway, it is my understanding that until you began objecting, Assyrian enjoyed consensus by virtue of WP:SILENCE. Now you wish to challenge that consensus, which is fine, but the ONUS is on you to do so correctly. That means not edit warring and discussing changes on the article talk page often while focusing on content. El_C 00:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don’t really get it. Even tho if it is the Status quo ante (who and When is this decided according to what?) how is it possible to identify someone with a name, that that person isn’t identifying him/herself with. That’s like erasing someone’s culture and identity? Or?MixedButHumann (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, I don't know enough about the subject, but Assyrian has been the status quo ante. You are the one introducing new material, which per WP:ONUS:
- The user continues to demonstrate a lack of willingness to accept the academic consensus that Assyrians and Arameans are the same ethnic group.
- At Stateless nation, that edit originally by a blocked user has one source. That one source does not support the content in that edit, e.g. there's no mention of the "Between 2,000,000 and 5,000,000" Arameans in that source [217].
- At Chaldean Catholics, this edit illustrates how the user is acting on the basis of his POV that Assyrians and Arameans are separate ethnic groups, contrary to the academic consensus [218].
- At Assyrians in Israel, the sources I explained to the user on his talk page, that were already on the article, demonstrate that they have no mention of Arameans ([219] [220] [221]).
- The user is under the false impression that I am actively editing with an anti-Aramean bias, and it's clear I have provided references to support persons' Aramean identity where appropriate, or simply left their identity as Aramean if the sources support that, as shown at Sanharib Malki, Gaby Jello, Abgar Barsoum, David Teymur, and Daniel Teymur. Mugsalot (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, I think I understand the name mis/identification — it's about Aramean being called Assyrian. Anyway, MixedButHumann, if you don't restrict yourself to high-quality sources which represent scholarly and mainstream consensus, you are likely to be sanctioned. I gave you some advise on how to go about doing that. But if other editors consider the view you're advancing to be WP:FRINGE than it cannot be included in articles, per due weight. You are invited to get the attention of other contributors to the dispute at hand through the means described above. El_C 00:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- user:Mugsalot what is again the reason you just reverted all articles I edited? The edit on Arameans is because of the wikiproject: Aramea, there is a need about a page about the modern group that identifies as Arameans. Here above you stated that you agree Sharbel Touma and David Durmaz Being of Aramean descent, yet you reverted this edit again.
- You also reverted the edit on Chaldean Catholics while I mentioned that their patriarch tried to unite the Chaldean Catholics under the Aramean name.
- I agree with you about the reverting of Bishara Morad and stateless nations as the sources weren’t relevant enough, but you can’t just revert all edits. user:El_C please your opinion on this, because here is more going on from Mugsalot his POV than we think.
- Note that all Wikipedia pages in other languages have seperate articles about Arameans and Assyrians. The group separated from eachother what makes that they have another history and culture. Arameans trace their origins back to the ancient Arameans while Assyrians trace their roots back to the ancient Assyrians. Organizations and other cultural aspects are different from eachother so a page about the modern Arameans is needed, as they both have another history, culture and even traditions.
- MixedButHumann (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- El_C I support the choice of the user redeeming himself but the above edit suggests his POV is the sole driver in his edits. The best summary of this debate is provided at Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East, ed. Paul S Rowe (2018), p. 357 that details that the Aramean identity emerged within the Assyrian community in the early 1980s, and reflects a disagreement over the choice of name to refer to the community across the whole, and does not suggest they are distinct, separate ethnic groups as argued by the user. Without some sanctions, I don't think the user is willing to accept this. Mugsalot (talk) 14:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- MixedButHumann, this is the last time I'm going to allow for you to cast aspersions on Mugsalot — who has been an editor in good standing for over half a decade. That is not acceptable. I have instructed you on how to address your content dispute. I have detailed the nature of WP:ONUS and how key focusing on content is (to both of you: this is not the place to do so — those venues are respective article talk pages). I have also explained to you about the nature of dispute resolution requests that are at your disposal for content disputes that otherwise reach an impasse (to bring more outside contributors to the dispute). There is no magic bullet — I am not going to decide on the content dispute myself. Either you do it right, or it's probably not going work out. Again, bring high quality sources that fairly represent the scholarly and mainstream consensus to the table, or there's simply not much left to talk about. Thanks and good luck. El_C 17:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- user:El_C Ok Thankyou, I’m going to try to provide high quality sources to Arameans and will try to enlarge the participating members on the wikiproject:Aramea to improve Aramean-related pages with ofcourse relevant sources.
- MixedButHumann (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
User:NVTHello again
BLOCKED | |
For unsourced genre changes. (non-admin closure) {{3125A talk}} 13:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
NVTHello (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Once again, NVTHello is continuing their unsourced genre changes, despite a release from their block only last week. As of this post, a closed ANI thread still on this page contains context of the issue before their last 24 hour block. Jalen Folf (talk) 00:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- JalenFolf, blocked for 3 days, next block probably needs to be an indef. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Same old stuff from User:Vkraja
BLOCKED | |
as per WP:NOTHERE and WP:CIR by User:QEDK (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 19:32, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Vkraja has been blocked temporarily because of and, multiple times since the block, has been warned about (a) the use of Wikipedia as a place to display photos, (b) contributing in a language other than English, and (c) removing maintenance tags. The latest warnings were dire, the latest coming in April.
The user hadn't edited since then until today, at Moolakkarai, the locale of some of the user's previous problematic edits. Today's edits involved (a) using Wikipedia as a place to display photos, (b) contributing in a language other than English, and (c) well, not removing maintenance tags, but removing the {{short description}} tag.
Permanent block? Largoplazo (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- It appears as though it's the old lay low for awhile move. GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- We could indef block them from the Moolakkarai article, see if they move to something else or if that's it for them. I don't think they've made a single constructive edit to that article. Canterbury Tail talk 16:08, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Partial block sounds reasonable. --Deep fried okra (schalte ein) 16:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- The user's engaged in the same sort of activities at Varandiavel, as well as placing the exclamation "KARMEGAM SAMY VERY POWERFULL" under the reflist. Largoplazo (talk) 16:15, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Where have they made positive contributions? Not here. Or here. Or here. Or here. I guess this is sort of alright. This was reverted because such an image was already there, and it was in the wrong place. No, I think this is a case of CIR. Drmies (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked by qedk --Deep fried okra (schalte ein) 17:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Domo Death Hoax
TROLL BLOCKED | |
This is obvious trolling vandalism, and has been (and should continue to be) treated as such. Guy (help!) 13:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have been editing Wikipedia now for a few days and have learned that multiple people documented on Wikipedia pages have been targets of Death Hoaxes, I have been giving reliable sources such as https://www.nhk.or.jp/ which contain information on death hoaxes, please stop reverting my edits, else I will have to sue the Administrative departments for lack of administrationon their part. Domo news, the most reliable source has confirmed death hoaxes and thus I shall make those edits on Wikipedia.
I wish to speak to a Bureaucrat or someone else who his competent enough to help me with this. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.149.9.31 (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for the legal threat. 331dot (talk) 01:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- The IP has apologized for the legal threats, but I'm still unsure where on NHK's website is the idea that several unrelated people haven't died, let alone why that information outweighs sources that say they have. (Any Japanese readers around?) The Moose 01:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Even if the info they claim is at the website, this edit where they seem to claim Ian Holm is in fact not dead and that his death is a hoax, is not factual. Even without the legal threat, clearly WP:NOTHERE. Heiro 01:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Same with this one, as multiple WP:RS confirm they are deceased. Heiro 01:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Even if the info they claim is at the website, this edit where they seem to claim Ian Holm is in fact not dead and that his death is a hoax, is not factual. Even without the legal threat, clearly WP:NOTHERE. Heiro 01:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- The IP has apologized for the legal threats, but I'm still unsure where on NHK's website is the idea that several unrelated people haven't died, let alone why that information outweighs sources that say they have. (Any Japanese readers around?) The Moose 01:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- The vandal has returned as Praisethelord03 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which has already been blocked by Ymblanter; like the IP, they're just going through the list of recent deaths on the main page and claiming they're all hoaxes - saying "Domo himself confirmed the death hoax". They're citing Domo (NHK) as the source, the channel's "brown, furry and oviparous monster" mascot. Domo is not a reliable source, no matter how oviparous he is, and this is just a dull, performative vandal. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 11:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:OWNBEHAVIOR by User:Fowler&fowler
No need for intervention. signed, Rosguill talk 06:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I recently responded to an edit request made at Talk:India and encountered some problematic ownership-mentality behavior by another editor who appears to be a frequent contributor to the page. I initially declined to fulfill the request, but implemented it after a response from the editor that proposed it. Fowler&fowler reverted my change as being against consensus and responded with hostility. No consensus was linked to, but I think it's likely there is one. My concern is that the editor seems to think all changes to the article need to go through them. I was met with this response to my implementing the edit request. There was no inline comment in the article warning against adding the hatnote, or anything on the talk page that communicated that there was a consensus that Names of India was an unacceptable article to link to. I calmly responded that I objected to the editor's characterization of my edit as "random nonsense," and that I expected an apology. In their response, the editor displayed clear WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. I decided to bring it here because I noticed a pattern of such responses by this editor, and I'm concerned they could have a chilling effect on discussion. The editor seems to frequently dismiss suggestions with rude and condescending responses, including implying that nobody should edit the article while they're "on vacation." Here are some sections on the talk page that point to a pattern of problematic behavior:
It seems to go back pretty far. I think the following comment from #5 above epitomizes this behavior:
It sounds ridiculous. Silly. Awful. I'm returning to my vacation. Consensus does not mean that two people can write claptrap and agree with each other. I'm returning to my vacation, like I just said. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:24, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
This editor probably just needs some reminders from an admin on Wikipedia policies, namely WP:AGF, WP:OWN, and WP:CIVIL. Thanks. — Tartan357 (Talk) 03:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please don't answer edit requests and then parry grumpy editors with pointless arguments. Yes, Fowler's objection ("This is an FA. We can't just randomly add nonsense") was over the top and Fowler should have noted that the reason the edit was objectionable would not be apparent to those unfamiliar with the topic. However, Fowler did not get personal: the assertion was that the link was nonsense. Articles like this (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan) attract a lot of inappropriate edits. People answering edit requests should take the hint that there is no consensus for the addition since it was reverted, and move on. It certainly does not warrant ANI. Johnuniq (talk) 03:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: I don't doubt that there was no consensus since it was reverted. I only made the one edit. I don't see how I failed to "take the hint." I'm concerned about the pattern of ownership behavior by this user. And Fowler did absolutely get personal in their most recent response. I noticed a longstanding pattern of uncivil behavior that appeared disruptive, so I took it to ANI. — Tartan357(Talk) 03:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler is on a break. - Sitush (talk) 03:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Sitush: Yes, but they made it clear that my edit was so damaging to the encyclopedia that they had to come back just for this:
— Tartan357(Talk) 03:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)I have just started a vacation. I would not have come back if I did not think great disservice was being done to encyclopedicity by the addition of that link.
- It's possible Fowler may have been editing in the India space on Wikipedia for so long they may forget the perspective of those less familiar with it. While they can come off as brusque and overbearing, I don't think there is cause for admin intervention. Fowler was recently pulled up for similar issues at User talk:Fowler&fowler#FAC..., and responded that they would work on them. CMD (talk) 04:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Chipmunkdavis: If they acknowledge that they’re working on it, then that would be good enough for me. I thought that wasn’t the case since they basically stated to me that they didn’t think WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL should apply to them. — Tartan357(Talk) 04:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your work handling edit requests. However, it would be better if you did not take it personally when someone refers to a link as nonsense. You are using beautiful formatting with quoted passages and redundant reply templates, but it's not clear you are engaging with the issue. ANI is for stuff like telling you some bad thing. The quoted text ("great disservice ... that link") is a comment on the link, not you. Johnuniq (talk) 04:52, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Chipmunkdavis: If they acknowledge that they’re working on it, then that would be good enough for me. I thought that wasn’t the case since they basically stated to me that they didn’t think WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL should apply to them. — Tartan357(Talk) 04:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's possible Fowler may have been editing in the India space on Wikipedia for so long they may forget the perspective of those less familiar with it. While they can come off as brusque and overbearing, I don't think there is cause for admin intervention. Fowler was recently pulled up for similar issues at User talk:Fowler&fowler#FAC..., and responded that they would work on them. CMD (talk) 04:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler is on a break. - Sitush (talk) 03:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- The way I see it is (1) you got your head handed to you on a plate, (2) you wanted an apology, (3) YOU ACTUALLY GOT ONE!, (4) you took it the wrong way. F&F made a good case as to why they were upset, but they never addressed why that particular link was unacceptable. This confused me and I could not figure why that link was unacceptable. However, another editor on the talk page asks the same question. I think, if you are interested in the article, continue discussing on the talk page. If you were just helping an edit request and do not want to address it further, take F&F's apology for what it is (that is about all you can ask for around here) and move on. I do wish F&F had actually stated what was wrong with that specific link. I hope others experienced in that area can chime in on the talk page. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 04:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Need a help regarding harrasment by Sock puppets

I don't know how to deal with this, so directly bringing the issue to you. The ip 78.1.13.211 was blocked because of personal attack towards me that too just 2 weeks, then its sock puppet 78.0.161.90 been range blocked due to similar personal attack and unacceptable rude emojis here and just now 93.143.70.88 another sockpuppet made exactly same commentary here and again another of it's sock is also there 93.143.76.66. Now you will ask me why I didn't opened a SPI, as I kind lost faith in SPI and felt total waste of time after that last obvious SPI failure here Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/78.1.13.211/Archive, the closing admin just concluded it as not sock puppet when the first case was clear evidence of sock puppet. I am staying out of those article for sometimes but it seems like the user behind the ip is hounding me again and again. I hope you can help me out in this, blocking all these ip ranges. Drat8sub (talk) 03:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Drat8sub, I have semi-protected the deletion discussion and will move this discussion to WP:ANI. To ensure transparency, please use WP:ANI instead of my talk page for further requests about similar issues. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the SPI, Cabayi, the edit summaries of the following diffs do seem to justify a block for block evasion, as the second diff happened after the first: Special:Diff/961725604, Special:Diff/963311929. However, perhaps SPI is the wrong venue for reporting pure block evasion that does not involve active sockpuppetry using multiple accounts. I'm not entirely sure about that; I would have reported IP block evasion at WP:SPI myself if I couldn't deal with it myself. Especially as WP:AIV is only for obvious cases, and as AIV often receives complex lists of diffs that seem to be way more fitting for a SPI page. If SPI is the wrong venue for such a report, I can understand this decision; I just need to know. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- ToBeFree, thank you anyway for bringing it here, I think you know what is best for the case.Drat8sub (talk) 15:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know much of the ip thing, how it works, but one thing that I have noticed, since 78.0.161.90 was range blocked, the user couldn't use those similar ip starting with 78.....it seems like the user have 2 different connection one with ips starting with 78 and another with 93. Nether of the ips starting with 93 had a block so, its using ips starting with 93..... still it's just an assumption out of no knowledge. So, I think admins are better to decide how to end this repitition of incivility. Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 15:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- ToBeFree, the first IP used had stopped editing, the second had been blocked, and the third - well, at that point it looked like it would be the beginning of a game of Whac-A-Mole with IP addresses. In User talk:Drat8sub/Archive 4#Away from SPI... I advised Drat8sub that page protection on the relevant pages might be a more effective solution, but with the caution that it might be seen as an attempt to skew the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ATK–Mohun Bagan. My reading of the situation was that Drat8sub was stoking the flames rather than making good faith attempts to discuss the one-club two-club issue and achieve consensus.
- WP:AN3 has two recent cases involving Drat8sub, one, two. As soon as the second of those was resolved Drat8sub was reviving this issue on ToBeFree's talk page - Special:Contributions/Drat8sub. The AN3 complaints also raise the matter of how other editors address Drat8sub. I see a common thread between these issues. Cabayi (talk) 16:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cabayi, I want to correct you, the third ip was not blocked before you closed the SPI, and thats why I opened the SPI, otherwise there was no need of the SPI. I did not stoke any flames regarding anything, my attempt was clear, until and unless anything official comes from the clubs nothing will be added in any articles. Because lot of rumours going on regarding the issues. Secondly, kindly and please care to read the AN3, and find out one thing where I has done anything remontely like stoking flames. That user was abusing editing privileges and still doing even after multiple times the matter is addressed regarding another article for which the AN3 was opened. That AN3 is totally different case, where the user is adding totally unsourced materials, and the second AN3 was just a revenge AN3 which does not have any substantial base becaus emy edits were per 3RRNO. Drat8sub (talk) 17:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Re your corrections
- "the third ip was not blocked...", and I didn't say it was. As I said on your talk page, page protection was likely to be more effective in dealing with the issue.
- "one thing where I has done anything remontely like stoking flames", that would be "repeat after me 3 times" which I'd find aggressively condescending if said to me.
- "the second AN3 was just a revenge AN3", which resulted in both of you being warned. Cabayi (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cabayi, I want to correct you, the third ip was not blocked before you closed the SPI, and thats why I opened the SPI, otherwise there was no need of the SPI. I did not stoke any flames regarding anything, my attempt was clear, until and unless anything official comes from the clubs nothing will be added in any articles. Because lot of rumours going on regarding the issues. Secondly, kindly and please care to read the AN3, and find out one thing where I has done anything remontely like stoking flames. That user was abusing editing privileges and still doing even after multiple times the matter is addressed regarding another article for which the AN3 was opened. That AN3 is totally different case, where the user is adding totally unsourced materials, and the second AN3 was just a revenge AN3 which does not have any substantial base becaus emy edits were per 3RRNO. Drat8sub (talk) 17:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Drat8sub, your statement "until and unless anything official comes from the clubs nothing will be added in any articles" demonstrates the problem with your editing. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources, not primary sources like self-serving club announcements. You do not own the articles about Indian football. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger, by saing "until and unless official annoucement comes from club" does not mean I am saying I own any article, I am asking for absolute fact not rumours. Before someone wins an election we don't annouce someone victorious based on opinion polls, do we??? Same here, more than that the clubs themselves told the name and all other thing will be annouced soon and the artcle was too soon. And we could have wait for that annoucement for any move. A article should not have been created in the first place based on rumours. Fake news a big issue in India, Press freedom index goes down to 142 and we live here and deal with this every second. Rumours are spread like wild fire, and the same happened here. And FYI any one can write in goal.com, khel now through freelancing, where that ministry thing was written, a half truth. My suggestion was to wait for an announcement, I don't think I have asked any illegitimate thing. Now the ip concerned here itself now saying that "still fake article, insult for common sense" here, however, along with disruptive editing, removing the discussion template persistently. I will not say much and let this disruptive editing or edit war continues in these two articles, if thats how the norms are. Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 01:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
I just got dinamic ip nothing of "sockpuppets". This drat is in deed dangerous man deleting article based edits so has to be fought all allowed ways...dont put (personal information removed ~ToBeFree) in this. told you afc is my life and will beat you in such online vandalism acting! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.113.214 (talk • contribs)
- (non-admin comment) Cool story, bro, whatevah it was you just said. Narky Blert (talk) 22:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- At the technical level, all of the IPs involved here belong to the same ISP and are in the ranges Special:Contributions/78.1.0.0/19 and Special:Contributions/93.143.0.0/17, both of which are sufficiently large that rangeblocks would probably cause a fair amount of collateral damage. I don't think either editor has particularly clean hands here, but I'm more concerned with the IP editor's attitude and harassment. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm pretty concerned about that as well, GeneralNotability. And while their latest comment contained no information that isn't publicly available on Wikimedia projects, I find it as close to outing as something non-oversightable can be. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Overcategorization by Armando619
- Armando619 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) – Disruptive editing; overcategorization; deliberately ignoring warnings. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- To cite diffs, here are diffs made by User:Armando619 here: [222] and here: [223]. Both add unneeded content to the page. However, the edit summaries also mock people so they could be having a secret list of enemies? {{3125A talk}} 11:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Heyday to you's WP:CIR issues
BLOCKED | |
as per WP:CIR, WP:DISRUPT by User:El C. (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 06:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Heyday to you (talk · contribs) is back following a week-long block but the issues remain:
- They place inappropriate warnings on Talk pages: contributor had received a warning on 9 June, hasn't edited since, I cannot make sense of this one,
- they add unsourced content: [224],
- they use Wikipedia as a reference: [225].
At the contributor’s last unblock request, Yamla wrote „This does not address your blatantly disruptive edits. Also, frankly, it does not convince me you understand WP:RS and WP:CITE.“ WP:CIR still seems to be critically lacking. Robby.is.on (talk) 08:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- The allegations of Robby.is.on are baseless. You may check user's contributions to whom I sent those warnings.
- P.S. I failed to find reliable sources for those edits as my sources were being listed as external links. Since I am a novice in Wikipedia, so I ended up writing my defence statement in this page.
- Heyday to you (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)Heyday to you
- @Robby.is.on: is not reporting a single stand-alone incident here. Heyday to you (talk · contribs) also placed a warning today on User talk:95.15.163.182 [226] (twice - having misformed the first one [227]) - with a header for a page the IP has never edited. The IP in question was blocked for 31 hours on 24 May and has not edited since. Gricehead (talk) 14:18, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
This IP guy looked insane through his edits. So I placed the warning. I don't think placing a late warning is unlawful in Wikipedia. Heyday to you (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)Heyday to you
- That IP user was blocked as a result of their last edits. Placing a warning after that may not be "unlawful," but it's pointless and arguably disruptive, as it could potentially mislead someone reviewing an AIV report that there is more recent vandalism. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Heyday to you, would you at least calm down, ask for guidance when in doubt, use a sandbox to test your editing skills, and most imperatively; study a few of our policies and guidelines before attempting to directly edit in areas you aren’t sure about? Celestina007 (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
this guy,@Heyday to you is familiar to me. He is my neighbour;this dude doesn't know much about policies of Wikipedia. So I think he must have unintentionally did this. I am a IP address user.122.177.155.197 (talk) 06:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
You guys may check mine or Robby's talk page to check our conversation. There you may find our conversation.Heyday to you (talk) 11:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
I'd be quite surprised if the above IP isn't Heyday to you while logged out. They left a warning template here, without having ever made a contribution to an article, and presented Heyday to you with a barnstar. Robby.is.on (talk) 08:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Earlier today, I warned Heyday to you about socking. Later today, an account which zero previous edits places another barnstar. Can admins please address these issues? Robby.is.on (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Heyday to you's edits to Black Lives Matter were minor and a few were wrong (changing American English spelling to UK English, etc.). Definitely not worthy of the BLM Barnstar mysteriously awarded to Heyday. A recent error by Heyday was creating a vandalism final warning on talk page of an IP editor who had not received any prior warnings, and was in fact editing in good faith (but neglecting to provide references for edits). Several recent article edits by Heyday have been reverted. David notMD (talk) 08:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have started a SPI investigation agenst Heyday The creeper2007Talk! 20:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I've encountered this user before - at best incompetent, at worst a vandal/sock. Either way NOTHERE. GiantSnowman 20:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
On Heyday's User page, claims to be 13 years old. Also claims via Userbox to have a Triple Crown for FA, GA and DYK. Not true. David notMD (talk) 00:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Heyday’s sock investigation have been closed. Although Hayday do check to Silver Play Button and one other account, the investigation was closed because the CU suspected to be multiple people sharing a IP and the CU have also not found anything abusive. The creeper2007Talk! 17:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Heyday to you continues to place inappropriate warnings: [228] and edit non-constructively: [229] Robby.is.on (talk) 13:25, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Eostrix
BLOCKED | |
Neith-Nabu blocked for 72 hours for continuing behavior after warning by TParis (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 17:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article in question: Eastern Rail Services
User:Eostrix recently nominated an article I created for deletion, which was fine as I stated it was borderline notable at the time, but I did ask to check that he was not from a rival rolling stock company due to the speed of the proposal, and lack of any talk page comments etc first. When he said he had no such connection, and didn't even really know about the rail industry (something that now seems to possibly be untrue considering his later comments), I moved on.
Following other editors supporting the retention of the page, rather than accepting that his nomination may not have been correct in this case, this user has started what appears to be a campaign against anyone making an opposing case - having made a formal COI claim against me, despite my having replied on the article to have no interest in the company other than through being a rail enthusiast in the local area, and then accusing me of "infesting".
This persons aggressive style seems very unsuitable for Wikipedia, especially considering that despite being a new editor he has been given the role of a new page reviewer. Neith-Nabu (talk) 09:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Eastern Rail Services was filed after two low edit accounts showed up, one of them uploading media from within the company's stockyard and labelled as "Own work" ([230], [231]). I warned Neith-Nabu of making personal attacks, including describing other editors as "infesting", namely:
- [232]: Neith-Nabu saying "Wikipedia is infested" by certain editors. Appears to be directed at User:Spartaz who closed the AfD delete as well as my self.
- [233]: accusing me of being "on a personal vendetta against the company, myself, or both".
- [234]: accusations of "lobbying for negative votes can be accomplished?" on relist of AfD by User:Spartaz.
- [235] calling User:Spartaz a "supervoter".
- --Eostrix (talk) 10:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Neith-Nabu: End the accusations, veil insinuations, and implications against all editors. Without evidence, they are personal attacks and you can get blocked. Reasonable fair-minded unaffiliated editors do disagree. The assumption that those that don't see it your way must be paid or part of a conspiracy against you or the railway is nonsense. Step away if you have to, but further accusations against anyone - including IPs and low-edit accounts - will earn a block.--v/r - TP 14:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, the infestation runs deep. A shame. We to see the encyclopedia we built back in the day turned into a little boy's club for the validation of the ego's of life's failures. Block away. I'll still be here long after you and your buddies have found something else to infest. Neith-Nabu (talk) 17:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Neith-Nabu: End the accusations, veil insinuations, and implications against all editors. Without evidence, they are personal attacks and you can get blocked. Reasonable fair-minded unaffiliated editors do disagree. The assumption that those that don't see it your way must be paid or part of a conspiracy against you or the railway is nonsense. Step away if you have to, but further accusations against anyone - including IPs and low-edit accounts - will earn a block.--v/r - TP 14:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- User blocked for 72 hours for continuing behavior after warning.--v/r - TP 12:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Repeated insertion of unsourced content by Agirlwithnoname02
Agirlwithnoname02 blocked from editing the page Appoorva Muralinath with an expiration time of 72 hours by Ponyo (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 17:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Agirlwithnoname02 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Appoorva Muralinath (edit talk history links watch logs)
New single purpose editor Agirlwithnoname02 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reinserting unsourced content into Appoorva Muralinath.
diffs: [236] [237] [238] [239] [240]
I've warned the editor on their talk page and mentioned the article talk page discussion. They have not responded. This editor did stop restoring their MOS problems which is encouraging. Gab4gab (talk) 14:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- They're back at it with the reverts. I've partial blocked Agirlwithnoname02 from editing the article directly for 72 hours. That should give them time to gather the sources needed to support the content they continue to restore.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 20:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:R. Martiello ranting on a talk page
BLOCKED | |
R. Martiello blocked 60 hours for harassment by Bishonen (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 04:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:R. Martiello, multiples instances of leaving disruptive semi-intelligible rants on a talkpage.
And when removed, followed with "I'm really getting your goat this evening, expatriate living in Britain, aren't I? ". Heiro 20:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Heironymous Rowe: I'm confused. Is the first link of "disruptive semi-intelligible rants" to a livescience.com website what you meant to do? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Oops, nope, sorry. That was me grabbing a link for something else unrelated earlier that somehow got c&p in. It's the three links below that concerns this reportHeiro 20:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, OK, that explains it. I've done that myself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, if they post there again, I'll just block them; they've been warned, and some of that was pretty creepy stalker-ish stuff, so I'm not too worried about BITE. My spidey sense says this is a returning banned user, but I won't rely on that, so I won't block if they don't post on Doug's talk page again. I will lose zero seconds of sleep over it if another admin thinks differently. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Right on, and you are probably right on all counts. I was just gonna leave it with the warning I left at their talk, but by the time I had left it, looked again, and they had made edit 3 while I was doing it. I'll be fine with whatever the ones with the admin bits see fit in the situation. Heiro 21:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, same. They have gotten their final warning, so it is up to them to comply or face sanctions. El_C 21:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, that was a uw-unsourced4 warning from Doug Weller. I just issued R. Martiello with my own final warning, though, to cease from the creepy behaviour. El_C 21:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked 60 hours for harassment. I don't agree with merely warning people who behave like that. Bishonen tålk 21:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC).
- Works for me. El_C 21:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
70.27.152.209
IP blocked for a month by Widr and Mz7. (non-admin closure). --Jack Frost (talk) 09:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 70.27.152.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This IP, which I am pretty sure is being used by Nate Speed, keeps blanking their own talk page and has threatened to report me if I restore the talk page. Can admin semi-protect the talk page before Nate goes onto his signature rants? SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 15:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked by Mz7. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:OneSixtyNine
Indeffed by TParis. (non-admin closure) --Jack Frost (talk) 09:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- OneSixtyNine (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)
Single-purpose, vandalism only account used to blank details about being "Jewish" from biographies, leaving deceptive edit summaries to mask the removal: [243][244][245][246] and many more over the past three months. Reported to WP:AIV here; declined here because no warning had been given. Deliberately targeting one religious group by stripping its identity again and again for several months deserves no warning; it deserves banishment. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- blocked.--v/r - TP 21:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @TParis: Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:26, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Neeraj Puru
User Neeraj Puru is WP:NOTHERE and has seemingly WP:CIR issues. All they have done on this project is to add unsourced/made-up details about the Saini caste, which is apparently their caste: [247]. They have been warned repeatedly as well as made aware about the WP:GS/Caste, but to no avail. They were blocked this month by RegentsPark, but they have started in the same vein after expiration of the block.
Previously, they tried to add Sainian in a village's name, but it was succesfully moved to its actual title: see Talk:Bir Mangaoli#Requested move 22 May 2020. Yesterday they again created the article with that unsourced title: [248]. Similarly, they previously created an unsourced article about a supposed clan of Saini caste – see here – which was rightly moved to draft space: [249]. But yesterday they again created that unsourced article: [250].
In short, the are not here to build an encyclopedia. And something needs to be done to stop their damage to this project. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- There only interest seems to be to add Saini everywhere. I've blocked them as WP:NOTHERE.--regentspark(comment) 21:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Harassment, edit warring, controlling behaviour with an admin friend
Hello. I'm a humble IP editor who shows up on and off over the years. Usually I correct issues of bias that stand out to me, such as the summary of a research paper I saw on the Goldendoodle page. Admittedly, my edit is poor from an English/grammar point of view but at the least it summarizes both the positives and negatives rather than cherry picked negative details.
I then went over to the page on Dog crossbreeds and was immediately mortified. I made one minor change to a sentence that was irrecoverable and proposed a rewrite in the talk page while mulling over a proposal by Cavalryman. Ultimately I disagreed with his proposal, but woke up to find the discussion closed and already implemented, which was odd since his proposal was only a week old and on a fairly minor page. Since my vote made the second vote and the proposal had only been up for a week on a fairly minor article, I reverted it and reminded Cavalryman that I had just voted and that we should keep discussing first. I made the good faith assumption that he simply missed my vote and forgot to take it into consideration or didn't notice that I had only started editing those pages.
I then made a different proposal that we push the Poodle crossbreeds to the List of dog crossbreeds as a clean redirect since a large portion of the listed crossbreeds are "poodle crossbreeds" in any case. Cavalryman followed me to this page and instantly closed my discussion and proposal, despite that it was a different proposal from the other one, and refuses to allow any discussion at all in these pages as if he owns them. If I disagree, he just says he will call up his admin friend. I don't see how this could possibly be conducive to good faith editing and discussion in the long term. Following me to other pages and "closing" my discussion with edits is also incredibly inappropriate, as is basically using an admin for token support in these settings.
Good faith requires that we take each other into consideration. These aren't huge pages with massive views, there's no reason for an admin to come in and prevent discussion and force changes while I, someone new, is just getting started in contributing. This isn't the first time this has happened, I can go through Cavalryman's history and point out other example of this sort of chronic behaviour and bullying towards new editors and stifling of discussion. Pre-empting an "edit war" argument to stop/prevent discussion on the talk pages is particularly inappropriate. So he can delete or push aside my comments even in the talk pages, how can I share my views or thoughts?
Hoping I can get some consideration here. No idea what to do when I come in as a fresh editor, get ignored, and the big response I get is: "You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- You must notify any user you bring up in your grievance. 331dot (talk) 02:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have notified both Cavalryman and William Harris in their respective talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 02:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Possibly related: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#User:LeoRussoLeo. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 02:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: At the base of this, Cavalryman shouldn’t be closing their own proposals (1, 2) per closure procedure. The other close also seems to be a different proposal (same source, different target) and so could be left open.Just don’t close discussions as an involved editor and talk the content dispute out; there probably isn’t much else to this. — MarkH21talk 02:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- MarkH21, I would prefer not to have to close my own proposals but when it comes to dog articles, if you don't close them they sit idly open for years, my interpretation of WP:MERGECLOSE is I as the nominator are permitted to close a discussion. A notice of this proposal was posted on the article creator's TP as well as WT:DOGS, then I closed this discussion after a week had passed. It is hard to discern what the IP is seeking, and they seem more interested in slugging it out than engaging in discussion. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 03:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC).
- Further, the IP's recollection of events is distorted, this proposal was closed ([251]) a full 17 hours prior to their !vote ([252]). Cavalryman (talk) 03:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC).
- I distorted nothing. I made specific note that you had closed the vote shortly after I started editing the talk page (less than one day) but before I entered my vote. I also made specific note that even after I reopened the vote, instead of taking my vote into consideration you moved it to an unbolded less visible location and accused me of edit warring when I would not allow that to continue, while implementing your own changes. The only measure that slowed you down was opening this incident report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 06:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm, you’re right that the MERGECLOSE wording does suggest that anyone can close merge proposals. In this case, opposition came soon after the proposal was self-closed, so one should probably just let it reopen at that point. The opposition demonstrated that the proposal was controversial (and therefore really only close-able by an uninvolved editor) and came soon enough after the close that it was reasonable to not enforce the discussion’s close (if it came a month later, that would be a different story). — MarkH21talk 03:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Further, the IP's recollection of events is distorted, this proposal was closed ([251]) a full 17 hours prior to their !vote ([252]). Cavalryman (talk) 03:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC).
- MarkH21, I would prefer not to have to close my own proposals but when it comes to dog articles, if you don't close them they sit idly open for years, my interpretation of WP:MERGECLOSE is I as the nominator are permitted to close a discussion. A notice of this proposal was posted on the article creator's TP as well as WT:DOGS, then I closed this discussion after a week had passed. It is hard to discern what the IP is seeking, and they seem more interested in slugging it out than engaging in discussion. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 03:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC).
Puzzlement
"You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here." Huh?
- Fact 1: On 16JUN20 I voted to support the merging of poodle crossbreeds into dog crossbreeds
- Fact 2: On 25JUN20 I received a "Notification of involvement in an incident" leading to here
- Someone needs to explain the logical connection between Fact 1 and Fact 2, in addition to the quote taken from above in this section.
William Harristalk
04:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @William Harris: I think that the IP inferred (incorrectly) an attempt to bring an admin onto his side from:
Pinging William Harris as the other contributor to the discussion.
in this edit. I don't see any other explanation for that. — MarkH21talk 05:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)- I was simultaneously accused of edit warring while Cavalryman told me his was bringing in the admin, in response to me disagreeing with a redirect proposal. Completely inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 06:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I still do not know what this has to do with me. I am not an admin, never have been, and never will be. You will need to explain to me why you called me to this page, and why you made the very strange comment that you did. William Harris
talk
06:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cavalryman brought you up while attempting to remove my vote from a talk page. As you are involved in this incident, I was required to notify you. If you aren't an admin, I'm unsure of who Cavalryman was referring to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 06:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I still do not know what this has to do with me. I am not an admin, never have been, and never will be. You will need to explain to me why you called me to this page, and why you made the very strange comment that you did. William Harris
- I was simultaneously accused of edit warring while Cavalryman told me his was bringing in the admin, in response to me disagreeing with a redirect proposal. Completely inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 06:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @William Harris: I think that the IP inferred (incorrectly) an attempt to bring an admin onto his side from:
- To be clear, I made contributions to the talk pages in all of the mentioned articles and Cavalryman did not respond to any of them. Zero discussion or reply to anything I have stated in the talk threads, only deletions or accusations of "edit warring" with him because I reinstated my comments in the talk pages! Even after undoing his deletions and marking my changes with a request to him to discuss things in the talk pages, he does not. In this thread/incident report here, note he simply accuses me of engaging in a "slug fest" and says I'm not interesting in discussing things! I'm the one actually making detailed talk page edits and trying to discuss things. The edits speak for themselves. His edits involve blanking out other peoples replies in talk pages or pushing them aside and adding flags around them to tell them that their votes don't count. I see no contributions to the talk pages or discussions that do not involve baseless accusations rather than specific content in the articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 06:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Your issues with another editor are not my concern. I await your explanation for the very strange comment that you have made, and which you appear to be avoiding, i.e. "You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here." William Harris
talk
08:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Your issues with another editor are not my concern. I await your explanation for the very strange comment that you have made, and which you appear to be avoiding, i.e. "You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here." William Harris
- For the last time, you were notified as it was required. To answer your other question, it was Cavalaryman's explicit comments in the talk section of the dog crossbreed wiki accusing me of edit warring while saying he'd welcome input from an admin and was pinging you, who given the context I assumed was an admin. The evidence of these claims is literally pasted on the talk pages and in Cavalryman's edit history while he attempted to blank out and remove my votes on a merger proposal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I offer my view on this matter, which I draw from the written record:
- On 16JUN20 at Talk:Dog crossbreed#Merger proposal:Poodle crossbreed, editor Cavalryman proposed a merge of the article Poodle crossbreeds into the article Dog crossbreeds
- On the same day I supported that merge after being attracted by a note placed on WP:DOGS here, which ends my involvement in this matter - I have no watch on this page nor further interest as to whether the article is merged or not
- On 24JUN20 you oppose the merge, and then you and Cavalryman enter into whatever issues you have with each other
- At 1:20 25JUN20, Cavalryman states: "Further, per your edit summary at Poodle crossbreed I would welcome the input of an Admin, your edit warring is not appropriate, the above discussion should be re-closed as that action was done per policy, your subsequent objections are being discussed here now. Pinging William Harris as the other contributor to the discussion." (My bolding, it appears that I am the only other contributor to the proposal)
- From this statement, it is my opinion that you then inferred (a) that William Harris is an administrator, and (b) that William Harris can be called upon on Cavalryman's behalf
- At 2:24 you opened a section at WP:ANI titled "Harassment, edit warring, controlling behaviour with an admin friend", where you write the very strange statement: "You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here." This provides evidence that you believe that I am the "admin friend", the one that you believe Cavalryman might attempt to establish "controlling behaviour" through
- At 2:36 you are advised that "You must notify any user you bring up in your grievance"
- At 2:45 you reply "I have notified both Cavalryman and William Harris in their respective talk pages", which provides evidence that you believe that you have a grievance with me
- At 4:14 I ask why I have been called to ANI and the meaning of your strange comment
- At 6:04 I state that I am not an administrator, and am not clear why I was brought to ANI
- At 6:14 based on my statement immediately above, you have a rethink and respond "Cavalryman brought you up while attempting to remove my vote from a talk page. As you are involved in this incident, I was required to notify you." Only I am not involved in this incident, and have no interest in it, even if I was pinged by Cavalryman. I believe that the reason that you brought me here was because you thought that I was involved in the "controlling behaviour with an admin friend"
- Additionally you state: "If you aren't an admin, I'm unsure of who Cavalryman was referring to." Which provides further evidence that you thought that I was an administrator, else you would have been unsure of who Cavalryman was referring to and would not have been in a position to have made the following statement: "You can't do anything, I'll just call my admin friend William Harris who calls all the shots around here."
- You then attempt to redirect the conversation through a tirade against Cavalryman for the next paragraph, which is irrelevant to the matters that I have raised. Your issues with another editor are your issues and not mine.
On this evidence, I believe that I am owed an apology by the IP for his incorrect inference that I am an administrator who can be called upon by Cavalryman, and excused from further attendance at ANI concerning the matter of "Harassment, edit warring, controlling behaviour with an admin friend". William Harristalk
11:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- You seem confused. I was literally required to notify you as a matter of policy because your name was mentioned in the original report. This is a matter of Wikipedia policy. All mentioned parties must be notified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.144.120 (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Surtsicna again
Surtsicna is formally warned against making comments that can be construed as personal attacks or aspersions. El_C 14:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I do not feel incline1d to kowtow again to continued personal attacks like which which have been going on for years now. Either reprimand me for subverting consensus or reprimand the limitless user. Tired of it & tired of no action on it. Absolutely fed up this time. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Surtsicna (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).
@Surtsicna: Underhanded? So much for WP:AGF? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- SergeWoodzing took part in a move discussion and explicitly abstained from it. Two days after a decision was reached and the moves performed, he went to the talk page of the user who performed the moves to request a reversion and a new move discussion. This subverted the outcome of a 7-day-long discussion. I did find that underhanded, as posting on a user talk page after a discussion was neither transparent nor inclusive of the community. Surtsicna (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not factual in any way. I asked the move closer to take another look to see if the one article had been included in error on a list if articles nominated for mass moves that this user wanted done. It had been included in error. If I "find" something to create an opinion about a user, I am still not at liberty to attack him or her in this manner. These personal attacks - underhanded - subversive- are not in any way warranted (are they ever?!), particularly, I might assert, in answer to my request to respect guideline & stick to topic. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I included the article into the list deliberately, not in any error. You took part in the discussion and had ample time to voice any concerns about any of the proposed moves. Instead, you abstained and then went behind everyone's back. Instead of apologizing, you are complaining about me criticizing your actions. Surtsicna (talk) 22:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not factual in any way. I asked the move closer to take another look to see if the one article had been included in error on a list if articles nominated for mass moves that this user wanted done. It had been included in error. If I "find" something to create an opinion about a user, I am still not at liberty to attack him or her in this manner. These personal attacks - underhanded - subversive- are not in any way warranted (are they ever?!), particularly, I might assert, in answer to my request to respect guideline & stick to topic. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
So, IMO, no one here looks great in this (including myself). For some background: I was the closer of the first RM here. I found that there was a consensus to move a group of 8 pages, one of which was Charles XV of Sweden. User:SergeWoodzing posted an "abstain" comment on that RM. After my closure, SergeWoodzing requested on my talk that I reverse my move of Charles XV of Sweden to Charles XV because Norway numbers him differently. Although SergeWoodzing could (and probably should) have brought that up in the first discussion, I thought it could have some merit, and I obliged (and started a second RM). I don't really have much to say about the second requested move, where I was not involved after my procedural nomination. Suffice it to say that, considering that discussion, I think that I should not have reversed that move. Also, if you're going to mention me on ANI (even if unnamed), please notify me. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
This is about whether or not a personal attack is OK, not about anything done any 3rd party in connection with any move. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- People are allowed to criticize your actions, both on this collaborative project and outside of it. Surtsicna (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- If the question needing an answer for this report is about a PA, then
The topic is your underhanded subversion of the community's decision....
does appear to me to be a comment on an action and not an editor; therefore, not a PA. Very toxic, yes, but technically I'm not comfortable with calling that a PA, as defined. If you want to address the specific move discussion, or a pattern of toxicity, then you need to re-frame your report, with diffs. Others may disagree, so just consider this a one-off opinion. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 03:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)- The item here is the words "underhanded subversion". Some editors can get away with personal attacks like that, time and time again. Others cannot. I've been active as logged in since 2008 and try very hard never to insult people here. I will never understand how some of us are untouchable when being "very toxic" even in choosing to use words like that. How many years does it take to become a VIP like that? Not that I'm interested for me, but there may be many others reading this who'd like to know when they can attack people with no recourse of any kind. Coming here, and trying to get someone to react, just adds injury to insult. I'm embarrassed that I was foolish enough to try it again. Moral (?) of the story: if someone else does something you do not like, because it interferes with your own plans and desires, it's perfectly OK to accuse h of underhanded subversion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- If the question needing an answer for this report is about a PA, then
User:48Pills
Blocked 72 hours by TParis. (non-admin closure) --Jack Frost (talk) 09:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 48Pills (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Can an uninvolved admin please handle the above? There's some blatant civility (as well as attendant reinstating challenged content) problems here and this ought to be speedily nipped in the bud (example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4, and example 5). I think this can be rather summarily dealt with. Neutralitytalk 23:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for 72 hours I gave us a 3 day reprieve from their attacks and disruption. If they continue after 3 days, we can look at a more permanent solution.--v/r - TP 00:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Oliszydlowski forcing tourism advertisments into article leads while ignoring WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN, deleted other user's talk page edit in relevant discussion
Warning issued to both Oliszydlowski and Notrium to correct their behaviour. Please update this close with any SPI/CU results, if applicable. El_C 09:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is a discussion over at History of Poland (Talk:History_of_Poland#Human_activity_in_Poland_in_antiquity). Basically, the user is trying to put in this article's lead something as from a tourism pamphlet, even though I and other editors thoroughly explained to him why that can't pass (puffery, POV, too vague, not specific enough, not refutable/verifiable, ...). Oliszydlowski also does the same "tourism" thing in a wildly inappropriate style for some other articles: diff, diff.
Here he removed a talk page comment by a user that disagreed with him, and insulted the user to boot. He keeps talking to other users in a threatening tone in edit summaries and on the talk page on History of Poland, and casts aspersions without basis. Notrium (talk) 04:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
EDIT: also WP:AGF. Notrium (talk) 05:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Notrium: has removed content per personal beliefs without achieving a discussion or consensus. He refused the Template:Rfc per administrator advice and continued editing the page without stating viable arguments to change it. Users Piotrus and GizzyCatBella noticed his actions and did not support his edits. He now falsely accuses me of insults and threats which there is absolutely no record of and is simply not true, but he has been simply warned by me that if he continues to edit the article without a vote he will be reported. We also suspected Wikipedia:Sock puppetry between Notrium and François Robere. It is those users or user who began to delete the information in the lead. He violated the guidelines in Wikipedia:Edit warring, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Template:Rfc. He claims to have used the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, however, it has not been used properly as it was him who began reverting and "improving" per his own specifications. On my part, there is absolutely no proof of any tourist advertisement which is horrendous as I was attempting to keep the content which has been embedded on the page and was suddenly removed without discussion. No WP:BURDEN has been violated by me as I was only reverting what I considered pure vandalism, and the lead content comprising of 2 sentences I considered obvious and unnecessary to cite, although one citation was included but was ironically deleted by User Notrium. Oliszydlowski (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- You are lying a bit too much. For example, when did I ever refuse an RfC, "[continue] editing the page without stating viable arguments to change it" or claim to use BRD? Notrium (talk) 04:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the insults and threats, I will provide more diffs if I must, but since everything I was talking about happened so recently and is on one article, I hope it is not necessary. Notrium (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- There were absolutely no insults whatsoever, only warnings in regards to your conduct per Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings. Oliszydlowski (talk) 05:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- How can you possibly say that I am edit warring after your latest reverts on History of Poland? Notrium (talk) 05:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Notrium: has removed content per personal beliefs without achieving a discussion or consensus. He refused the Template:Rfc per administrator advice and continued editing the page without stating viable arguments to change it. Users Piotrus and GizzyCatBella noticed his actions and did not support his edits. He now falsely accuses me of insults and threats which there is absolutely no record of and is simply not true, but he has been simply warned by me that if he continues to edit the article without a vote he will be reported. We also suspected Wikipedia:Sock puppetry between Notrium and François Robere. It is those users or user who began to delete the information in the lead. He violated the guidelines in Wikipedia:Edit warring, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Template:Rfc. He claims to have used the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, however, it has not been used properly as it was him who began reverting and "improving" per his own specifications. On my part, there is absolutely no proof of any tourist advertisement which is horrendous as I was attempting to keep the content which has been embedded on the page and was suddenly removed without discussion. No WP:BURDEN has been violated by me as I was only reverting what I considered pure vandalism, and the lead content comprising of 2 sentences I considered obvious and unnecessary to cite, although one citation was included but was ironically deleted by User Notrium. Oliszydlowski (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I recently looked at this article (which has been on my watchlist for 10+ years) and my edits where quickly reverted by both; this might need a protection for few days, and both parties should be warned to step back. And RfC has been proposed on talk and may be a good idea, although I am not sure if either party could write something that is neutral. Frankly, having reviewed the discussion and article history, all of this seems to be about some really minor and generally uncontroversial wording. Storm in a teacup, really. Short term protection and a mild warning to behave is likely the best solution. Ping User:El C who recently left a commend along those lines to the parties on the talk (and added 500/30 protection due to a DUCKsock appearance). PS. Edit conflict: separately, NPA is an issue, when an editor accuses another one of lying, this is a separate conduct issue that may warrant a separate review from the short term protection, sigh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus reply here 04:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: Your edit has been mistakenly reverted by me, but has been restored. Oliszydlowski (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I do appreciate you addressing this quickly; at least we have consensus on this minor hyperlink now, it appears. One down. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus reply here 04:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: Your edit has been mistakenly reverted by me, but has been restored. Oliszydlowski (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
@Notrium unbelievable battleground behaviour you hold dear co-editor apart from the edit warring [253], [254], [255] something that could be easily solved by following this advice [256] @Oliszydlowski this account Iron Thain who joined the dispute by reverting [257] is possible banned user Icewhiz [258] (Iron Thain please clarify if you are not) so don't bother with the investigation, please.GizzyCatBella🍁 05:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Just to illustrate Notrium behaviour I would like to point out that within 25 minutes of me leaving the comment above [259] Notrium proceeds to the article of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn he never edited before to support a position [260] that is opposite to my recent edit [261]. GizzyCatBella🍁 06:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
If I can, I would nevertheless suggest advising parties to cool off, disengage and proceed to RfC following this advice [262].GizzyCatBella🍁 06:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note: A short discussion on this topic also occurred at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#WP:PEACOCK at the History of Poland lead. CMD (talk) 06:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Oliszydlowski, François Robere is an editor in good standing. Accusing them of socking outside of SPI and without evidence is not acceptable. Also, warning Notrium of vandalism (without evidence, either) is a personal attack — please see what vandalism is not. Anyway, if the matter is being discussed at NPOVN already, why split the discussion with a new ANI report? Again, SPI remains at editors' disposal at all times. Oh, and as always, I am staying away from the Solzhenitsyn page (which I do not have watchlisted) like I would the plague. Not that I was asked about it. El_C 07:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- "if the matter is being discussed at NPOVN already, why split the discussion with a new ANI report" - AFAIK the noticeboard is about just content, while this ANI report is about user conduct (with Oliszydlowski's latest reverts with no regard towards policy or the ongoing discussion being the straw that broke the camel's back). AFAIK NPOVN is no replacement for ANI? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notrium (talk • contribs)
- Sure, fair enough. Although I see you make conduct complaints there, too, is my point. But regardless, I'm not sure we have much that's immediately actionable in this report, aside from a warning to Oliszydlowski to use Wikipedia resources correctly and avoid personal attacks and aspersions. But maybe also not to engage in WP:HOUNDING, Notrium. Please take note. El_C 08:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I added the diffs in question. I notice now that in the initial report I failed to mention that the main reason I think Oliszydlowski needs to be sanctioned right now is the repeated reversion of others' edits while ignoring discussion and policy, because that causes real disruption for all involved editors: some uninvolved editor already came and edited over Oliszydlowski's edit-warred version and now it will be extra effort for somebody to revert back to the version it should be until Oliszydlowski or GizzyCatBella make a real attempt at dispute resolution. Notrium (talk) 09:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, fair enough. Although I see you make conduct complaints there, too, is my point. But regardless, I'm not sure we have much that's immediately actionable in this report, aside from a warning to Oliszydlowski to use Wikipedia resources correctly and avoid personal attacks and aspersions. But maybe also not to engage in WP:HOUNDING, Notrium. Please take note. El_C 08:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
More diffs
Original April edits that introduced the "tourism ad" wording, for context: [263]
Edit warring on History of Poland while ignoring discussion and policy: [264] [265] [266] [267] [268] [269] [270] [271] [272] (especially these last few)
Threatening edit summaries and edit summaries that cast aspersions willy-nilly: [273] [274] [275]
Same for talk page edits: [276] [277] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notrium (talk • contribs)
- What is it that you want to happen, Notrium? El_C 09:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I guess the above (section) answers that. I'm not prepared to sanction Oliszydlowski at this time, Notrium. El_C 09:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- How about just reversing his latest edits? Any of the already involved editors would risk edit warring in doing so, but they should obviously be reversed (I guess you agree?)? Notrium (talk) 09:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I take no position on the content front. I recommend you follow my advise, work together on launching an RfC and take it from there. I'm closing this report now. El_C 09:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- How about just reversing his latest edits? Any of the already involved editors would risk edit warring in doing so, but they should obviously be reversed (I guess you agree?)? Notrium (talk) 09:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I guess the above (section) answers that. I'm not prepared to sanction Oliszydlowski at this time, Notrium. El_C 09:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
User:IamBasavaprabhu
USER PAGE DELETED IN META | |
Page deleted in meta (and as a link to it, deleted in en.wiki)) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Never mind. I reported this in Meta.wiki and and admin deleted the page as "out of scope for Meta". -- Alexf(talk) 15:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Requesting a block on Valereee
The optics are not great, but a block (or any sanction) is not feasible. Valereee has committed to making the necessary correction. I have high confidence that she will succeed in this. El_C 00:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi. The user Valereee has been exhibiting disruptive editing, that is now chronic. I'm asking for a block since I've tried everything else, and the result is the users behavior is more entrenched.
•User disrupts editing through CFork of a topic on Talk:Killing of George Floyd/ [change video image], which user admits to have forked (see below)
"Pasdecomplot, I inserted the subsection head because an IP didn't know whether it needed its own section, and I decided it did. That insertion doesn't stop the consensus process above it. You can still continue that discussion up there. You can find instructions at WP:TALKPAGE, which once again I highly recommend you read as it explains all this stuff. —valereee (talk) 15:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
"Gosh, thanks valereee. I found WP:CFork, POV content forking which can disrupt consensus building, a big no-no. Is this correct? Or, is it sub-pages (sub-topics in this case) which should be defined in the topic's title, if I understood correctly. (But, this conversation should have been added on my talk page, no?) Pasdecomplot (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
•User disrupts editing by going off-topic chronically to attack my lack of editing skills, unnecessarily. The personal attacks stifle the consensus process. Many of these chronic and personal disruptions are archived, but a few of those on a current topic remain.
•User has been asked to stop, but won't. User continues to engage when their messages aren't welcome. Instead of engaging off the article's talk page, user continues to try and engage inappropriately on the article's talk page (see below). "I'm sorry, Pasdecomplot, I'm not following? (And the last time I added an explanation to your talk, you reverted it with an edit summary that said it was unwelcome there, which I took to mean you'd prefer I not post to your talk unnecessarily. I'm happy to continue this there if that's what you'd prefer.) —valereee (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)"
•In effect, the user has now become like a predator that won't stop. I don't think Wikipedia would want to encourage the user's behaviors. I've tried everything, from being nice to ignoring the user, from asking them to stop, from deleting their messages on my talk page to re-engaging. But after the 18:09, 26 June 2020 message above, it's gone too far.
It's possible a block would change the dynamics, and allow the user to realize they've overstepped the line of civility to the point where they are willingly being abusive since they are aware their engagement is not welcome.
If a block isn't accepted, can we please block the users ability to read my work, and their ability to stalk me through discussion topics, even those which do not include them in my talk page? Thank you for all the help, and I wish I didn't feel it necessary to ask for help.Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
(I'll try posting this discussion again now; the previous attempt failed)
- @Pasdecomplot: For one, you have failed to notify Valereee of this discussion. For two, you have not provided diffs or links to the relevant edits. CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have left the customary notice on your behalf. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Pasdecomplot, you have neglected to attach diffs to your report. Like God and the Devil, the truth often is in the details. El_C 20:23, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee you have twice blocked this editor for short periods of time (three hours for failure to read and abide by WP:OR and WP:RS and four hours for refusing to learn to ident properly) but this is in relation to a subject in which you have been heavily involved (Talk:George Floyd and Talk:Killing of George Floyd are your two most edited Talk pages) so I do wonder if you should be taking administrative actions here per WP:INVOLVED. I understand Pasdecomplot is a frustrating editor to deal with but you could have asked another admin to intervene.-- P-K3 (talk) 21:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, P-K3 is right. Either you do the content or you do the admining. You can't do both. El_C 21:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's fair. It felt to me like a behavior issue rather than a content issue, as literally all of the issues were about how we work, but I can understand that it didn't feel that way. —valereee (talk) 23:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, next time, please feel free to just drop me a line. It's a troubled topic area, so I can see future problems like that being likely to arise. Anyway, please do not hesitate. El_C 23:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's fair. It felt to me like a behavior issue rather than a content issue, as literally all of the issues were about how we work, but I can understand that it didn't feel that way. —valereee (talk) 23:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Concur. Also, not sure a block for "refusing to indent" is proper. See discussion here: User_talk:Pasdecomplot#"aligning_left_for_easier_reading_again". Levivich's approach to the issue was far more appropriate, by attempting to explain and offer advice with scripts, before a block (if one is even appropriate). I've seen editors blatantly messing up page structure (on transcluded templates!) because they can't format properly (especially bad at AfD), and even they don't get blocked. (Sidecomment, and I'm absolutely not saying this has anything to do with Valereee, but George Floyd related articles are becoming very toxic to edit, and I feel bad for any new user who begins on Wikipedia by contributing to those) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- ProcrastinatingReader, to be fair, I left an extremely similar explanation (my third, I believe) at the editor's talk. They deleted it with an edit summary saying it was an unwelcome message. I and other have asked this editor to learn to indent multiple times, explained how to indent multiple times, explained why it's important multiple times, linked to WP:TALK multiple times. I've also recommended that a new editor at a contentious article is a bad combination. —valereee (talk) 23:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
request for "review with a possibility of a range block"
Closing as premature and w/o prejudice to re-opening if the disruptive behavior resumes. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
|
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
23.53 hours ago, I requested semi-protection of the article Eagle Eye, saying IP editors are making edits in contravention of WP:ES, WP:FILMPLOT, MOS:PUNCTSPACE, WP:NOR, WP:CAT, and WP:BRD. I have repeatedly attempted to engage them on the talk page, receiving only a single comment for my efforts. It is my hope that an inability undo will either compel discussion and/or dissuade the edit war.
407 minutes later, Ad Orientem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection&diff=964550029&oldid=964549511 declined my request saying, This looks like a single editor operating within a /64 range. If attempts at communication fail, and after suitable warnings for disruptive editing, you should go to WP:ANI and request a review with a possibility of a range block.
I see five different IPs making edits; I'm reluctant to warn each individual IP because either it's five separate editors who haven't returned, or it's a single editor who won't see a warning when they return with a new IP address. IAW Ad Orientem's suggestion, I'm requesting input here. — Fourthords =Λ= 22:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any editing since yesterday morning, and near twenty hours before I declined your request at RfPP. What has happened since then? -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- To clarify my concern, unless there is something I am missing here (always possible), there has been no editing by the parties concerned in the last 36 hrs give or take, which makes this rather stale. We don't block either punitively or proactively, but only as a last resort to protect the project from disruption. As far as I can tell, the disruption has ceased. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I just reverted the IP, so we will wait and see. El_C 22:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds like a plan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I just reverted the IP, so we will wait and see. El_C 22:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- To clarify my concern, unless there is something I am missing here (always possible), there has been no editing by the parties concerned in the last 36 hrs give or take, which makes this rather stale. We don't block either punitively or proactively, but only as a last resort to protect the project from disruption. As far as I can tell, the disruption has ceased. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Breach of Wikipedia:Etiquette
I would like to file a complain for the way user User:J Milburn spoke to me in the Talk:Aleister_Crowley#RfC:_How_should_we_present_the_claims_that_Crowley_worked_for_British_Intelligence_in_this_article? which I think certainly breakes all the rules of Wikipedia:Etiquette as can be seen here. Things like "Are you lying, or are you just confused?" or "We follow what the reliable sources say, not what angry people on talk pages say." by far break the guidelines of etiquette. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's blunt, it's forward, and it's terse - but it's not a personal attack or "by far" a break of civility policy.--v/r - TP 22:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I Agree that J Milburn can do better. WP:UNCIVIL. Editors should focus on content. Lightburst (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Lightburst: I am doing my best to focus on content; I am simply pointing out that Dereck is behaving unreasonably. In fact, Dereck is posting here, I assume, as yet another tactic to avoid focussing on content. Have you taken a look at the conversation on the talk page? Dereck does not answer questions. He shifts the goalposts. He forum shops. He claims that he does not need consensus for his actions, and does not need reliable sources. He makes outlandish claims about what policies and guidelines say. He edit wars. He makes derogatory claims about academics (in clear violation of the biographies of living people policy). But you want to say that I can do better because I am asking him whether the untruths he repeats are lies or the result of confusion, or for referring to him as "angry". I think I have displayed quite considerable patience; YMMV. Josh Milburn (talk) 07:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Speaking of lying, well Josh Milburn is doing it right now. I have answer all his questions, is just that or he doesn't read them or he doesn't like the answer. He claims I edit wars, how? I make like two reversions one from a tag that was eliminated without my consent despite been the tagger and another when I considered that the re-adding of bogus claims was incorrect and in both cases I stop immediatly after another user reversed me again and took the things into the talk page, how is that "edit waring"? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 08:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dereck, you accuse me of lying here, yet you posted minutes ago on the talk page apparently agreeing with me. In that post, you seem to accept that your claims about others calling this pseudoscience were false. These were the claims my "Are you lying, or are you just confused?" question referred to. And you seem to accept that the policy doesn't say what you claimed it said. The question of which policy said this was the key question I said you were avoiding; you said above that "I have answer all his questions, is just that or he doesn't read them or he doesn't like the answer." So which is it? I'm getting seriously mixed messages from you. This is why I have said I am disengaging; there really is very little point talking to you. (As for edit-warring: here and here. Your claim that "I stop immediatly after another user reversed me again" is false. Your tags were removed by one user, and you reverted. Your tags were removed by another, and you reverted again. And your explanations in the edit summaries are hardly clear.) Josh Milburn (talk) 09:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Josh Milburn what you consider I agreed with you is that I mentioned that no, no policy says that the disputed information has to be in one special section, I myself admitted that, what I was doing was making my own suggestion on how to solve the issue. I mention several times on the talk page that this was just my suggestion not extracted from any specific guideline, that's all. I don't know if that answers your question once and for all. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- You now say that "no policy says that the disputed information has to be in one special section". This is what I was asking about. I was asking what policy said this. Yet you accuse me of lying when I say you didn't answer. You very explicitly did claim that a policy says that the content needs to go in its own section: "...locating the fringe unproven statement on a special section as proposed and as the guideline and policies demand" and "The policy is to locate fringe theories on the bottom and not giving them the same space than non-fringe theories". I think it's pretty clear, then, that I was not lying about your failure to answer the question of which policy or guideline supported this, as you now accept that no policy does support this. Given that you now accept you were wrong about that policy andthe BLP policy, perhaps you could have a little more care and modesty when it comes to making claims about what Wikipedia policies and guidelines demand. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Josh Milburn I remember you that I said, and quote: "Josh Milburn locating this disputed and unproven claims (and in some cases slanderous) in a special section is my suggestion in order to reach a compromise, as what should be done is remove them, however I was trying to suggest something less radical just to be polite. Unfortunetly nor even that reasonable suggestion was accepted and this is why we're having this discussion." You accuse me of no answering but I did answer you that that was my suggestion not something from a specific guideline. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ok. I am not sure we are going to get anywhere here; I have said what I am going to say. I can show you why I am finding you difficult to talk to, but I cannot make you see. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Josh Milburn I remember you that I said, and quote: "Josh Milburn locating this disputed and unproven claims (and in some cases slanderous) in a special section is my suggestion in order to reach a compromise, as what should be done is remove them, however I was trying to suggest something less radical just to be polite. Unfortunetly nor even that reasonable suggestion was accepted and this is why we're having this discussion." You accuse me of no answering but I did answer you that that was my suggestion not something from a specific guideline. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- You now say that "no policy says that the disputed information has to be in one special section". This is what I was asking about. I was asking what policy said this. Yet you accuse me of lying when I say you didn't answer. You very explicitly did claim that a policy says that the content needs to go in its own section: "...locating the fringe unproven statement on a special section as proposed and as the guideline and policies demand" and "The policy is to locate fringe theories on the bottom and not giving them the same space than non-fringe theories". I think it's pretty clear, then, that I was not lying about your failure to answer the question of which policy or guideline supported this, as you now accept that no policy does support this. Given that you now accept you were wrong about that policy andthe BLP policy, perhaps you could have a little more care and modesty when it comes to making claims about what Wikipedia policies and guidelines demand. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Josh Milburn what you consider I agreed with you is that I mentioned that no, no policy says that the disputed information has to be in one special section, I myself admitted that, what I was doing was making my own suggestion on how to solve the issue. I mention several times on the talk page that this was just my suggestion not extracted from any specific guideline, that's all. I don't know if that answers your question once and for all. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dereck, you accuse me of lying here, yet you posted minutes ago on the talk page apparently agreeing with me. In that post, you seem to accept that your claims about others calling this pseudoscience were false. These were the claims my "Are you lying, or are you just confused?" question referred to. And you seem to accept that the policy doesn't say what you claimed it said. The question of which policy said this was the key question I said you were avoiding; you said above that "I have answer all his questions, is just that or he doesn't read them or he doesn't like the answer." So which is it? I'm getting seriously mixed messages from you. This is why I have said I am disengaging; there really is very little point talking to you. (As for edit-warring: here and here. Your claim that "I stop immediatly after another user reversed me again" is false. Your tags were removed by one user, and you reverted. Your tags were removed by another, and you reverted again. And your explanations in the edit summaries are hardly clear.) Josh Milburn (talk) 09:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Speaking of lying, well Josh Milburn is doing it right now. I have answer all his questions, is just that or he doesn't read them or he doesn't like the answer. He claims I edit wars, how? I make like two reversions one from a tag that was eliminated without my consent despite been the tagger and another when I considered that the re-adding of bogus claims was incorrect and in both cases I stop immediatly after another user reversed me again and took the things into the talk page, how is that "edit waring"? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 08:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Lightburst: I am doing my best to focus on content; I am simply pointing out that Dereck is behaving unreasonably. In fact, Dereck is posting here, I assume, as yet another tactic to avoid focussing on content. Have you taken a look at the conversation on the talk page? Dereck does not answer questions. He shifts the goalposts. He forum shops. He claims that he does not need consensus for his actions, and does not need reliable sources. He makes outlandish claims about what policies and guidelines say. He edit wars. He makes derogatory claims about academics (in clear violation of the biographies of living people policy). But you want to say that I can do better because I am asking him whether the untruths he repeats are lies or the result of confusion, or for referring to him as "angry". I think I have displayed quite considerable patience; YMMV. Josh Milburn (talk) 07:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dereck Camacho, were you hoping we would not notice that you started the escalation by accusing J. Milburn of lying? What I see in that debate is a civil statement of fact, which escalates due to your obdurate refusal to accept that it is, in fact, fact. J. Milburn made clear that he has no particular dog in the fight, but that the scholarship
should be enough to convince us that this is the subject of a serious debate between the relevant experts, and not "pseudoscience", "pseudohistory", or "ludacris [sic]".
- This appears to be a question on which reasonable people may differ, and you give a strong impression of trying to browbeat everyone into agreeiong with you, 100%, or else.
- Beware the WP:BOOMERANG. WIthdraw this complaint, calm down, and go and work out a consensus wording on Talk. Guy (help!) 13:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Personal attacks or otherwise are often matters of interpretation, but the comments you highlight seem more in the category of increasingly terse requests for evidence to support the claims being made. They're not personal attacks, and they don't require admin intervention. Best way to resolve this specific issue is for (a) the discussion to refocus on the point of the RfC which is where to place the claims, and (b) for participants to accurately quote en-WP policies when referencing them in discussion. Mildly, WP:NPA also suggests raising concerns direct with the other editor before coming to a noticeboard, as this helps de-escalates disputes. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Dereck Camacho - I decided yesterday that I had made a mistake in closing your thread at DRN, but maybe I should have closed it after all. It does appear that you are trying to argue two different but related issues about Aleister Crowley in two different forums, and that is questionable. It would be better if you would decide whether you want to have a content dispute mediated at DRN or a civility dispute resolved here, rather than arguing in both places. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Dereck Camacho - I would suggest that you should read Wikipedia policies carefully rather than quickly, because at DRN it appears that you have seriously misread the BLP policy. Don't get into a hole by arguing a non-existent policy. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon although I don't see the relationship among the two issues because here I'm reporting what I considered was rudeness and breach of the rules of conduct (but apparently is not) and has nothing to do with content dispute and the DRN is about content dispute, this thread is as far as I understand closed already isn't it? I'm just responding because I was mentioned. If the case is already close, can I still answer when I'm accused of something and give my version or should I remain in silence? I'm asking honestly, I don't know if once close I shouldn't edit in it anymore. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Randam
Randam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
This user has been posting defamatory information about critical journalists from Turkey. Despite removal of his earlier edits, he AGAIN edited the page about Abdullah Bozkurt, a critical Turkish journalist and placed defamatory statements attributed to sources from Turkish government which jailed the largest number of journalists in the entire world according to reputable organizations such as CPJ, RSF and others. He edited one about Yavuz Baydar, another Turkish journalist, which triggered discussion and removal of the page. His track record shows he is overtly pro-Turkish government and has been editing entries favorably about Turkish President Recep tayyip Erdogan, his son'in.law Berat Albayrak and other issues that are important for the Turkish government. He was blocked for editing Turkey's neighbor Greece on Covid-19 response with unverified data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Researcher Turkey (talk • contribs) 08:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Researcher Turkey: In the future, please follow the instructions and notify users when starting a thread about them. Please sign your posts. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't really understand how it is defamatory. These are the 'defamatory' edits (1 and 2) in question. I'm not writing "person X is Y". I write "person X is being accused of Y in/by Z", including words like "allegedly", followed by sources. The allegations exists. That doesn't mean the allegations are true or false. It's not our job to decide that.
- The text on the article of Yavuz Baydar was removed because of copyvio tag, reviewed by an admin.
- The other stuff I will not even reply to as it is just ad hominem attacks. Randam (talk) 12:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note, Researcher Turkey claims to be the subject of these edits per [diff]. As a result them editing and removing information about themselves is at least a COI. This doesn't mean their points don't have merit, though the sources seems reliably source to me but I don't know enough about it. Canterbury Tail talk 13:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment (edit conflict) Reviewing admins should be aware of this unsigned comment by Researcher Turkey on User talk:Randam, which is in my view WP:UNCIVIL and perhaps warrants a WP:BOOMERANG. After a quick review of both user's edit histories, it seems obvious to me that Researcher Turkey is the one pushing a POV here, that is, the POV that the Turkish government is evil. Randam's edits do indeed contain the word allegedly as required. And, indeed, their edits are helpful. How else are we supposed to know why someone was exiled? Even if the charges are false, they still matter to the articles in question. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 13:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- One problem we do have here is sourcing contentious claims to Turkish media like the Daily Sabah and TRT World, which are effectively just Turkish government propoganda mouthpieces (the piece used to source the diff mentioned above by Randam was titled "How does FETÖ's mouthpiece in Sweden generate fake news?"). If an editor is removing statements in a BLP that are only sourced to such, without it being made very clear where that claim comes from, they should be removed. Black Kite (talk) 13:26, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: I disagree in this case, but now we're getting into a content dispute which isn't the point of AN/I. These sources are reliable for the Turkish government's official reasons for its persecution of Bozkurt. They would not be generally reliable for facts in other contexts. Knowing the official reason why someone is exiled matters... Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 13:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- but it does mean the sources could be seen as contentious, so if someone objects, they shouldn't be edit warred back in, which is what Randam was doing.(The Daily Sabah ref appears to be an OP ed). Curdle (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I thought reverting a COI editor was an obvious 3RR exemption, but it's not listed. I opened a discussion at WT:WAR. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 13:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- The sources are from the Turkish state-owned AA, TRT and as such they are not reliable. Some sources do not even mention the name of a person whose biography page is about. Researcher Turkey (talk) 14:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Researcher Turkey: Per WP:RSP, [c]onsensus exists that TRT World is reliable for statements regarding the official views of the Turkish government. Andalou Agency also fits the bill in my opinion. Further discussion of the wording of the article Abdullah Bozkurt should take place at the article's talk page, Talk:Abdullah Bozkurt. We aren't using these sources to accuse you of anything. I further watered down the statement Wikipedia is making because of how contentious the sources are.[278] Nevertheless, the official reasons for your exile, no matter how unfair they are, should be in your article. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 14:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is fair and agree that AA and TRT represent the official line, but one needs to give a context, balanced and counterview in the page, especially in a biography page, when you use such sources. Turkey frequently invokes anti-terror charges against journalists. Just yesterday the US State department issued a country terrorism report accusing Turkey of using anti-terror probes to crack down on freedom of press. This page was initially created by Randam with more baseless claims such an official page for Bozkurt, which was a fake. It was removed after a dispute by another editor. Researcher Turkey (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Researcher Turkey: No problem. I added another line with three sources, plus a § "See also" section. In future, probably Talk:Abdullah Bozkurt is the place to go, by the way, since this discussion will be closed eventually, but a talk page is forever. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 19:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is fair and agree that AA and TRT represent the official line, but one needs to give a context, balanced and counterview in the page, especially in a biography page, when you use such sources. Turkey frequently invokes anti-terror charges against journalists. Just yesterday the US State department issued a country terrorism report accusing Turkey of using anti-terror probes to crack down on freedom of press. This page was initially created by Randam with more baseless claims such an official page for Bozkurt, which was a fake. It was removed after a dispute by another editor. Researcher Turkey (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Researcher Turkey: Per WP:RSP, [c]onsensus exists that TRT World is reliable for statements regarding the official views of the Turkish government. Andalou Agency also fits the bill in my opinion. Further discussion of the wording of the article Abdullah Bozkurt should take place at the article's talk page, Talk:Abdullah Bozkurt. We aren't using these sources to accuse you of anything. I further watered down the statement Wikipedia is making because of how contentious the sources are.[278] Nevertheless, the official reasons for your exile, no matter how unfair they are, should be in your article. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 14:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- but it does mean the sources could be seen as contentious, so if someone objects, they shouldn't be edit warred back in, which is what Randam was doing.(The Daily Sabah ref appears to be an OP ed). Curdle (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: I disagree in this case, but now we're getting into a content dispute which isn't the point of AN/I. These sources are reliable for the Turkish government's official reasons for its persecution of Bozkurt. They would not be generally reliable for facts in other contexts. Knowing the official reason why someone is exiled matters... Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 13:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Rangeblock
Last week I blocked Ythlev (talk · contribs) for a 3RR violation (they reached 9RR). Today I caught them socking with a new account Uconf (talk · contribs), which I also blocked. They are now editing from IPs; I blocked 114.137.46.249 (talk · contribs), but they have popped up again with 114.137.134.85 (talk · contribs). Is it possible to block them with a rangeblock? Alternatively, they have quite a narrow focus of edits (Taiwanese elections), so alternatively, all of them could be semi-protected. Cheers, Number 57 12:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's a /16 range so it's possible but I wouldn't recommend it. From what I see, collateral is possible but unlikely and unless newer IPs on that range pop up, I would argue multiple IP blocks being a better mechanism. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- They are now reverting random edits I've made from another IP (114.137.206.26 (talk·contribs)). Beyond short-term blocks to stop them socking at the moment, I wonder whether longer-term sanctions may be required. Number57 14:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Or, you could start acting like an admin and actually fix the problem. 114.137.206.26 (talk) 14:20, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- They are now reverting random edits I've made from another IP (114.137.206.26 (talk·contribs)). Beyond short-term blocks to stop them socking at the moment, I wonder whether longer-term sanctions may be required. Number57 14:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Every recent edit is them - there is no collateral damage. Since they aren't about to stop, looking at the comment above, I have blocked the /16 range for a month to match their block. Black Kite (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- Would WP:3X be a bit too nuclear? Blackmane (talk) 02:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP:3X requires the socking to have been confirmed by a CU; CUs do not publicly link accounts to IPs. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 04:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that requirement (since I was the one that proposed it in the original RFC). In this case, it's clear quacking and enacting a ban based on 3X would not be out of the question. Ythlev has been blocked once a month for edit warring for the last 3 months. Blackmane (talk) 00:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP:3X requires the socking to have been confirmed by a CU; CUs do not publicly link accounts to IPs. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 04:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
ApChrKey
Small issue with ApChrKey making obviously nonsensical edits then undoing them -- for the lols? Examples being [279][280][281] and a good chunk of his undos being against himself Naleksuh (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I gave ApChrKey (talk · contribs) a solid warning. Please notify me if there are any further problems. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Help regarding edits by User:Febb011
User:TheTruthExplorerZZ is disappointed by deletion of RPT Inc. (Bokaro) (a PR piece that failed WP:CORP) and supposed WP:SOCK User:Febb011 has started ranting about it at my talk page. See Special:Contributions/Febb011 has started arguing/harassing at User_talk:Amkgp#Is_RPT_Inc._(Bokaro)_now_improved?. Please help. Thank you. ~ Amkgp 💬 05:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
I am not disappointed by any deletion. I just is naturally asking why did ~ Amkgp considered my article for deletion. He is purposely and forcefully calling my discussions as 'Harassing'. You can see there's nothing such as harassing.
Thank You.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheTruthExplorerZZ (talk • contribs)
Confirmed to each other:
- IndependentInformer (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- IndependentAndTruth (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- TheTruthExplorerZZ (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Febb011 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- One of them temporarily had a COI userbox but removed it. Seems a bit fishy to me. I'll block them all. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:18, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
MyFakeVersion of Drag Race Season 13 is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia
INDEFINITELY BLOCKED | |
By Cullen328. (non-admin closure) {{reply to Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 02:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
MyFakeVersion of Drag Race Season 13 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)
Take a look at their userpage. That's all I have to say. Found 'em from patrolling Special:Log/newusers. {{reply to Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 02:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Disputes over Islamic subject matter
Based on an AIV request, I blocked an editor in regards to Islamic schools and branches. Not exactly a subject matter I know much about, but the edit history did seem like disruptive editing. Perhaps I used the wrong reason, perhaps not. The block is being appealed, and I have no problem with anyone over-riding me and unblocking.
However, that's not my question. This is not the first time I've seen heated edit summaries over articles related to Islam, but I don't see any Arbcom restrictions on the subject matter. Which kind of surprises me. So, if this was any of the rest of you admins, how would you have handled this? Is there a guideline somewhere regarding Islamic subject matter? — Maile (talk) 22:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Maile66, yeah, there are no DS or GS on Islam (though there are obviously times where it would fall into GS/ISIL, DS/India-Pakistan, or DS/Palestine-Israel, and I know the latter both have acronyms but I never remember which is which). To be honest, I think I would have handed a temporary block for edit-warring/POV-pushing here rather than an indef, especially since this wasn't actually vandalism per se and the AIV report looks like it was motivated by a content dispute. GeneralNotability (talk) 03:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Fernando.andutta
- Fernando.andutta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
- Wikiletters (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
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Wikiletters has been created and A7 deleted three times,[282][283][284] and Fernando.andutta has been spamming[285][286][287][288][289][290] links to it after receiving a COI warning.[291] --Guy Macon (talk) 01:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- It appears that Fernando has the ANI flu. Pro tip: if ever you break the rules and they have you dead to rights, just stop editing Wikipedia until the ANI report gets autoarchived. You can then resume spamming or whatever. Works pretty much every time.
- The question is whether this is one of the ones who comes back and spams again months later, or whether this is one of the ones who goes away and never comes back. Creating Wikiletters multiple times argues for the former. Might I suggest an indefinite WP:NOTHERE block? I think we can hold off on salting wikiletters and/or blacklisting *.wikiletters.org until we see further spamming. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Guy Macon, I've partially blocked him from article space so he can discuss the issue here. Agree this is a case of NOTHERE but at least this will give him the opportunity to defend himself and/or discuss his edits on talk pages. Looking at his history and deleted contributions he's shown no interest in working collaboratively and seems to have some serious COI issues. At least this should bring him to the table. Glen 12:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
User causing repeated edit wars and misrepresenting articles
User:VenusFeuerFalle is repeatedly attempting to misrepresent very fringe opinions with regards to the Islamic view of Angels as being one that is or was widely held. This user explicitly states on their page: "I don't like edit-wars. However, if I am certain that something is wrong, I will feel the need to clarify something." I've been primarily trying to resolve this issue with regards to the page Harut and Marut and have failed to come to some sort of compromise. Looking at User talk:VenusFeuerFalle this seems to be a pattern of repeated behaviour and I was in fact notified by another user that he's attempting to make similar claims on the Iblis page, see: Talk:Iblis#Muhammad_Mahmoud_as_source. This user also repeatedly violates WP:GOODFAITH, accusing people of sockpuppeting: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harut_and_Marut&diff=964108752&oldid=964104092 and asserting that others are editing based on 'agenda': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Harut_and_Marut#Edit_war_about_the_story FAISSALOO(talk) 21:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Faissaloo. Even I tried to reason with VenusFeuerFalle, and others whom he got into a dispute or contact with, here and there, but he persisted with nearly edit-warring against me here and there, accusing me and FAISSALOO of being sock-puppets, and he incorrectly said that a particular passage of a primary source (the Qur'an (18:50)) does not say that Iblis is a Jinn to another user, for which I had to refute him using a passage of the primary source that says that Iblis was a Jinn (since Venus was talking about this primary source e Qur'an), but Venus continued to pretend that the Verse didn't say that Iblis was a Jinn, and after I warned him to stop this WP:Bias, Venus then decides to report me for WP:Vandalism (when he himself is guilty of that ([292][293], despite repeated warnings from me ([294][295]) that he can't just go round deleting reliable sources to support his POV, not to mention that he is nearly edit-warring with me), and without a prior notification on my talk-page. Leo1pard (talk) 08:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC); edited 08:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have not accused you of sockpuppin. If I do this, I will report you both here: WP:SPI. The issue here is, that pretent to reason with me on the talkpage but ignore all my responses. I repeatedly told you, that the sources state. nevertheless you ignore the sources in the Harut and Marut and Iblis article. In both cases it is the common denial of fallen angels within Islamic beliefs. Since Islam scholars currently insist that there are no sinning angels and that the devil is a jinn, while simultaneously Iblis as angel (not a jinn) and Harut and Marut as sinning angels was a common motif within Islam, I suspect religious bias among both Users. These facts are all well supported within the corresponding articles. Although the users use reliable sources, their edits do not reflect the content they are citing. Instead, their edits reflect their opinnion on religious texts (here: Quran) about a certain vers.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Users making conspiracy theories about me.
I think this is going out of hand in some certain Islam-related articles. Leo1pard (talk · contribs) makes conlusions about me and accuses me of biased edits, although they are all in accordance with the sources and I am always open for debate, if a source is challanged to determine the accuracity of sources. He concludes due to my interest in gnosticism and sufism, and because I defend vandalism against the Iblis article (the part where he is not seen as a jinn but as an angel is often disputed by Muslims today), he accuses me of siding with the devil. I think this is going to a direction worth to be reported. He also disputes about me with other Users and telling them his conspiracy theories about me.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I recommend you provide diffs so people don't have to spend time going searching. Canterbury Tail talk 21:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- So User:Canterbury Tail's comment was really useful. If you had been more specific, I wouldn't have looked for evidence, coming across this edit. (Hint, if someone says "it's ungrammatical", maybe you should figure out what the problem is.) The edits and edit summaries in that article don't reflect well on you. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- And they just did it again. BTW, VFF, the source you cite doesn't mention the story as "canonical", which discusses how a popular myth got connected to a Qur'anic verse. Drmies (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- The source says, that such stories became "canonized" due to their popularity. It is quiet common in islam that teachings became canon via non-canonical scripture, just like the name Azrael for the angel of death. So what is wrong about it?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Never posted a diff-link before. Does this one help?: [[296]]. What Drmies talks about is something entirely else. Rather unexplained reverts and give out unjustified warnings. But this is not the matter here.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Look up WP:BOOMERANG. You're still edit warring and making POINTy edits. I am going to report you for edit warring, since this is really irritating. Drmies (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Never posted a diff-link before. Does this one help?: [[296]]. What Drmies talks about is something entirely else. Rather unexplained reverts and give out unjustified warnings. But this is not the matter here.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- The source says, that such stories became "canonized" due to their popularity. It is quiet common in islam that teachings became canon via non-canonical scripture, just like the name Azrael for the angel of death. So what is wrong about it?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- And they just did it again. BTW, VFF, the source you cite doesn't mention the story as "canonical", which discusses how a popular myth got connected to a Qur'anic verse. Drmies (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Canterbury Tail I can provide you with differences, but this is a long story:
- Firstly, VenusFeuerFalle had made this edit to List of characters and names mentioned in the Quran, saying "demons are not a sub group of jgenies (at least not more than angels are). Also fixing the header for "Supernatural" it was messed up."
- I then decided to use the word Shayāṭīn, which applies to "evil Jinn" (Islamic POV) like Iblis (who is also regarded as a fallen angel), with the references being listed in Talk:Iblis.
- Before I put in those references, Venus insisted "they (Shayāṭīn and Jinn are stil distinct. and no, Surah 18:50 is not a good source (one of the reasons why we avoid OR on wikipedia)."
- After some other edits by Venus, I then corrected some peculiar glitches with 2 references (Webster's references had an improper part in the location: " location=Woodbury, he will blow the trumpet when the day comes to the end Minn" and I corrected " work=Encyclopaedia publisher=Britannica" in the 2nd reference to " encyclopedia=Encyclopaedia Britannica"), and I put in all these WP:RS to say "Don't you know that the Devil (Iblis) is regarded as both a Jinn and a Shaytan?"
- Venus then removes all these the reliable sources that I put in, besides reversing my corrections to these 2 references (like putting ", he will blow the trumpet when the day comes to the end Minn" back into the section of "location" in the first reference), saying "shayatin is a seperate type of creature (children of Iblis). Iblis is regarded as an angel, a jinn or somethign entirely else, depending on source and Quran-interpretation, but always becomes a shaitan. As long as we assign Iblis to the shayatin everything should be correct. But shayatin are not simply "evil jinn". They are only "jinn" in the sense of invisiblity, twhich also applies to angels." as if his WP:POV is important enough to remove a whole bunch of reliable sources!
- I then undid his revert, protesting against his removal of reliable sources, saying "Not according to the WP:RS that I posted!" besides correcting these 2 references, but then Venus removed the references and messed up these 2 references again, saying "your sources do not cover up your claim at all. Some deal with Iblis affiliation and also tell the same as I told above. So I recommand you to read the sources you use completely. Second they do not categorize the spiritual creatures. For what I would recommand you Amira El Zein (Intelligent world of the jinn), there the several creatures are explained in their attributes and different categories."
- Then I tried to reason with him, and others whom he got into a dispute or contact with, here and there, but he persisted with nearly edit-warring against me here and there, and he incorrectly said that a primary source did not say that Iblis is a Jinn to the IP address, for which I had to refute him using the Verse to say that according to the Qur'an, Iblis was a Jinn (since Venus was talking about the Qur'an), but Venus continued to pretend that the Verse didn't say that Iblis was a Jinn, and after I warned him to stop this WP:Bias, Venus then decided to report me for WP:Vandalism (when he himself is guilty of that ([297] [298], despite repeated warnings from me ([299] [300]) that he can't just go round deleting reliable sources to support his POV, not to mention that he was nearly edit-warring with me). Surprised at his stance, I decided to investigate why he would go against something that is commonly believed by Muslims (that Iblis was a Jinn and Shaytan (Devil) who was an enemy of God), and here are some things that I saw:
- 1) He states that he is a Sufi, among other things.
- 2) From earlier sections in this talk-page about Iblis (On the origin of Iblis and Is Iblis Allah's enemy?), VenusFeuerFalle took a somewhat pro-Iblis view, or a view about Iblis that ran contrary to the views of mainstream Muslims:
- A) In Is Iblis Allah's enemy?, Venus said "One of the synonyms given to Iblis is "enemy of Allah", probably rooted in folklore to avoid pronouncing his name, since, according to some folklore, if someone speaks his name, he is present. The idea of Iblis as enemy of God probably rooted in Zorastrian influences, such as Shanameh, but Islamic theology (including several interpretations) does not depict him as the enemy of God but of Gods way for humanity."
- B) In On the origin of Iblis, Venus got into an argument with another user.
- C) After an IP address made the section Iblis as an Angel to say ""And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord." This is coming straight from the Qur'an (18:50), which is the highest source of authority in Islam." Venus got into an argument with this user also, saying "What is your point? I mean, the verse is explained in great detail, including the exegesis on the verse. Literally, the Quran does not even say "jinn" in Arabic" but "jinni", while the creature created from "smokeless fire", that is actually either "marijin min nar" or "nar as samum", that is more appropriately translated as "mixture of fire" and "poisonous fire" (s-m-m from the Semitic root for "poison" or "venom") is "Jann" not even "jinn". Therefore, there is no reason to use the verse to exclude Iblis from being an angel based on the source. And many Muslims are aware of it, and the disucssion also entered the works of the mufassirs (exegetes). When you argue, the Quran determines that Islam is, when we should use the Quran Arabic language and not a translation done later, especialy not, when the transaltions are restricted to a narrow range of interpretations and traditions. And when we encoutner that scholars have a deviant or even contrary reading of the Quran than we have today, we should wonder, there the change was made. For Wikipedia, there our own research is discouraged, and we only gather the work already done by scholars, going into detail is unnecessary."
- Thus I remarked: "Putting these (the evidences, including this reply of Venus) together, it seems that VenusFeuerFalle is one of those Sufis who take a positive view of Iblis," not that he definitely is, and Venus did something which surprised me. When replying to me and another user here, he said "And no "shayatin" are not "simply evil jinn". Evil jinn as called "Shayatin", but there are also "Shayatin" as a seperate group. If you would actually read Robbert lebling you would know this. He states on page 22: Evil jinn are of three kinds: 1. fallen angels (shayatin) (this are by the way the actual "shayatin") ..." In other words, he is now saying that fallen angels can be regarded as being among the kinds of evil Jinn. This is in contrast to his earlier stance that the views on whether Iblis was a fallen angel or jinn were irreconcilable, when I was trying to say that they were reconcilable all along! Leo1pard (talk) 17:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Revert of LTA needed on Wiki News
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please can someone revert the trolling made from My Royal Young on Wiki News (i.e. revert these contributions). I can't do that myself because I have been blocked by the abuse filter (here) and these images should not really be there. Thank you, Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 11:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Nor can we Iggy the Swan, it's a separate wiki. You'll need one of the admins there to do it. Cabayi (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Pi zero has took into the action to revert all. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:09, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cabayi, we know it's a different project. User:Davey2010, sometimes these things take a long time, even if we report it to a steward. Until you become one of the targets you don't really appreciate the fact that the unified login is a disaster. Drmies (talk) 00:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi User:Drmies, Fair point, I didn't look at the contribs so given the circumstance I would actually agree Iggy was correct in coming here, My apologies Iggy for reading you the riot act here - Like I said had I bothered to check the contribs I would've been more understanding so sorry about that, I've struck that part of the closure, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 01:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- User:Davey2010, no apology necessary. It's just that one doesn't always know where to turn for the quickest solution. What's usually needed is a global block, revoking of talk page and email access, and oversight/suppression, and before all those things have happened usually some time has passed. I have a shortcut for the Steward requests here, and while I'm no spring chicken even that took me a while to find... So that Iggy the Swan would come here seeking someone with more global powers, that's not surprising. Iggy: this is the one. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 01:43, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi User:Drmies, Fair point, I didn't look at the contribs so given the circumstance I would actually agree Iggy was correct in coming here, My apologies Iggy for reading you the riot act here - Like I said had I bothered to check the contribs I would've been more understanding so sorry about that, I've struck that part of the closure, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 01:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl and incivility
Withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Levivich [dubious – discuss] 17:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi all! I checked my watchlist this morning and noticed this section on User:BrownHairedGirl's talk page. Here are some of the sentences she wrote in that section:
please do try to actually read my reply. It's not that complicated.
Do you need help in seeing the naming problem?
…after all your years of editing you you apparently don't understand that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC refers to the topic, not the title.
if you had the basic courtesy to pay some attention to my replies, this dialogue would serve some purpose. However, you are clearly egaged in a hostile process of fault-finding rather than problem-solving.
These are patently uncivil, and Justin's attempt to raise legitimate concerns with her AWB editing resulted in hostility and being driven off her talk page. As I was also requested not to post on her talk page, over half a year ago now in a series of uncivil contributions that resulted in BHG losing her mop, I will instead direct this to administrators rather than leaving a comment of my own. This sort of behavior is not conducive to a constructive environment and not permissible under local civility policies. Thank you for your time, Vermont (talk) 13:44, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Suggest big boomerang. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 13:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's a conversation taking place on an editor's talkpage. There's been no disruptive editing on main space. If others involved there, don't like the responses? they need only walk away. GoodDay (talk) 13:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- As far as I'm able to discern, there is no consensus that incivility is okay in userspace. Vermont (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Even bigger boomerang needed. those comments in green at the top of this petty and unjustified whingeing are the very opposite of uncivil. BHG is clearly restraning herself, though I cannot see why she bothers with you lot. -Roxy the elfin dog .wooF 13:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- As far as I'm able to discern, there is no consensus that incivility is okay in userspace. Vermont (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
It seems that there has been about a 0.5% error rate in a series of about 2,000 edits which I did, adding missing eponymous categories. These errors related to a very few pages whose titles are ambiguous, and where the eponymous category relates to a broader topic.
I would welcome help in identifying such exceptions, but User:Koavf/Justin's approach has been a hostile exercise in fault-finding and conflict-creation. This extended even to Justin reverting[301] my disambiguation of People from Ibiza to People from Ibiza (song) ... leaving me to open an RM discussion on a move which should be uncontroversial.
I had a previous encounter with Vermont last year where they came to may talk page raise a concern, and I responded openly. They then proceeded to manipulatively take my words out of context, and use then agaisnt me ...and claimed that my closing of the discussion was evidence of misconduct. So I am sadly unsurprised to see Vermont trying to stoke a conflict here.
Justin and I have disengaged over this issue, so this attempt to reopen it is pure timewasting. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Only as a comment (as I relatively recently had a debate with BHG on an issue), as I don't think there's anything actionable here, but the "my way or the highway" attitude - while nothing uncivil itself and generally that BHG seems to be usually right on policy matters in these areas - is what can set off these types of incidents because it immediately comes off standoff-ish, and encourages those replying to take the same tone. BHG can probably find other means to stand by their assertions that they are correct w.r.t. policy without coming off in an initially hostile tone, and those that have dealt with BHG before should be aware that this is their style and work within it to avoid the same tone. But in this incident, nothing else really to be done beyond the usual trouts. --Masem (t) 14:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Thank you for your civil reply. I would contest your description of our encounter last year, though arguing that is unlikely to lead to anything constructive, as we both know. With this issue, my concerns are not with the AWB problems Justin and others raised, but with the content of your replies. Though they are not as uncivil as what preceded the Arbitration Committee action, your comments nevertheless were aimed to degrade the motives and competency of Koavf rather than discussing their arguments, the definition of incivility. Incivility is not justifiable on the actions or stances of other editors. My intention in creating this section was by no means to create conflict, but rather to mitigate such incivility. As you and Koavf have disengaged, and other editors have joined in on your talk page and article talk pages to civilly discuss the issue (which I thank you for participating in the manner you did), there are no longer active issues for administrators to respond to. I ask you to remain civil in all your communications, not just most of them (a quick scroll of your talk page showed nearly everything else was unproblematic), and I have no objection to closing this. Best regards, Vermont (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
If I reported every editor to ANI, who (rightly or wrongly) made me feel like dirt? I'd be making a report on a monthly basis. We gotta calm down, folks. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This complaint is unrequited nonsense. Codswallop. Horse hockey. Apparently the only response that wikipedia editors will now accept as civil is "Forgive me! You are so right. I repent, being but dust and ash." There is nothing uncivil in the above, and it is all 100% fine and allowable especially on a user page. I agree with Masem's comment that BHG could be more civil, but only insofar as it applies to EVERY EDITOR at ALL TIMES. Wikipedia, both as a site and a community, still has a lot of growing up to do. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I second that. A bit of mild sarcasm in response to some passive-aggressive provocation is nothing to merit Admin intervention (especially a disagreement you're not personally involved in). I've seen far worse on the incivility scale that gets let off without any sanction. Move on, go and do some content editing. Cnbrb (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- +1 - Couldn't agree more with this. –Davey2010Talk 15:19, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- +1 - if this is incivility we are in deep trouble. Anthill is an exaggeration. Oculi (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- +1 - Vermont, I'd personally consider your post here considerably more uncivil than anything either BHG or Justin has said in that thread. Please, withdraw this. ‑ Iridescent 15:48, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- How do you figure? PackMecEng (talk) 15:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Low-level snappiness of the kind both sides are engaging in in that thread may not be perfect conduct and it wouldn't happen in an ideal world, but it's a part of human nature and if we tried to enforce "nobody can be even slightly disrepectful ever", Wikipedia would have no editors within a week. Intentionally trying to re-ignite a dispute which has ended in the hope of getting someone against whom one has a long=term grudge into trouble, which is what is happening here, is discourteous on multiple levels. It's discourteous to BHG, obviously, to try to spin an incident which an editor of Vermont's experience knows is non-problematic; it's discourteous to Koavf (who is an editor with two million edits and is well aware of how to complain if he feels a complaint is worth making) to claim to speak on his behalf; it's discourteous to the multiple admins whose time is being wasted by reading this thread as opposed to genuine problems. If this were a good-faith report it wouldn't be such an issue, but I think I speak for every single admin on the project when I say that we're all becoming heartily sick of Vermont and BHG wasting our time by using our dispute resolution processes as the venues to act out their personal petty grudges. BHG has stopped doing this since the arb case and has dropped the stick; it appears that Vermont has not. ‑ Iridescent 16:08, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- So then not a civility issue by filing this report. Now from what I can see I agree with you on most of these points, I was just curious how the report itself was a sign of incivility and from what I can see that does not appear to be the case. PackMecEng (talk) 16:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I withdrew this an hour and a half ago. BHG's reply to me was more than sufficient for me to believe no admin action was necessary, as the immediate issue had been resolved. I did not think it appropriate to close this thread myself as other discussion was still ongoing, and I stated I have no objection to it being closed in my reply above. Addressing another point of your comment, I agree that BHG's replies to other editors have significantly improved since the arb case. After a quick scroll of her talk page, I found nothing else remotely problematic, none even to the level of her dispute with Koavf. In terms of an accusation of a long-term grudge, I do not feel that towards her in the slightest. I evidently have a much lower bar for incivility than anyone else here, which applies to anyone I come across and not specifically BHG. As community consensus here is evidently that such minor incivility (or sarcasm, as some people construe it to be) is not something that requires addressing in any manner, I apologize for wasting the time of my fellow editors with this report, and my view of what is considered uncivil on this project has changed. Regards, Vermont (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Low-level snappiness of the kind both sides are engaging in in that thread may not be perfect conduct and it wouldn't happen in an ideal world, but it's a part of human nature and if we tried to enforce "nobody can be even slightly disrepectful ever", Wikipedia would have no editors within a week. Intentionally trying to re-ignite a dispute which has ended in the hope of getting someone against whom one has a long=term grudge into trouble, which is what is happening here, is discourteous on multiple levels. It's discourteous to BHG, obviously, to try to spin an incident which an editor of Vermont's experience knows is non-problematic; it's discourteous to Koavf (who is an editor with two million edits and is well aware of how to complain if he feels a complaint is worth making) to claim to speak on his behalf; it's discourteous to the multiple admins whose time is being wasted by reading this thread as opposed to genuine problems. If this were a good-faith report it wouldn't be such an issue, but I think I speak for every single admin on the project when I say that we're all becoming heartily sick of Vermont and BHG wasting our time by using our dispute resolution processes as the venues to act out their personal petty grudges. BHG has stopped doing this since the arb case and has dropped the stick; it appears that Vermont has not. ‑ Iridescent 16:08, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- How do you figure? PackMecEng (talk) 15:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- +1 - Vermont, I'd personally consider your post here considerably more uncivil than anything either BHG or Justin has said in that thread. Please, withdraw this. ‑ Iridescent 15:48, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- +1 - if this is incivility we are in deep trouble. Anthill is an exaggeration. Oculi (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This does not rise to the level of Admin intervention, but ... I have to say/ask, @BrownHairedGirl: why not simply dispense with the sarcasm? It never makes things better. Paul August ☎ 15:34, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sarcasm always makes things better!! -Roxy the elfin dog .wooF 15:40, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, sure it does. Cnbrb (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Admit it, you feel better now. -Roxy the elfin dog .wooF 16:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, sure it does. Cnbrb (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Paul August, sadly my experience with Justin is that a detailed explanation rarely makes things better. So when I was a bit stressed this morning, I dispensed with the long explanation in response to his fault-finding. After many years, I haven't yet found a way of engaging productively with Justin's style of communication, and am still feeling a bit fed up with his conduct at a recent discussion elsewhere (where he rejected numerous requests to withdraw a possibly-unintended personal attack), so I went straight to dismissal. In hindsight, I should probably have just said something even more minimalist like "go away". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:27, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Note on chronology
Vermont opened this discussion at 13:44.[302]
But the issue had actually been resolved at 12:59, with my response [303] to Justin's post at 12:56.[304].
So Vermont's later claim that they were withdrawing the complaint because the issue had been resolved looks disingenuous. It was resolved 45 minutes before Vermont opened this discussion.
I also note that Vermont's only edits in the last 9 days[305] have been to make this ANI complaint.
I don't want to re-open discussion, and I'm not seeking any action. But given Vermont's previous conduct towards me, I just wanted to add this note about chronology to the record, as evidence of what I described above as Vermont trying to stoke a conflict
. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Afer Ephraimite
Afer Ephraimite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
A new single-purpose account who is misrepresenting the sources he's using, pushing a WP:POV and adding fringe/outdated material to the article against mainstream consensus on the matter. Judging from the fact that their second edit after creating their account (in the same day!) shows high mastery of reference usage, he's clearly not a new user! And he knows how to indent (even experienced editor are struggling with this.) After I reverted his edits he wrote in his edit summary "undid berberist edits". I don't think calling someone a Berberist (a.k.a nationalist) is civil. He's clearly not here to build an encyclopedia and I'm suspecting sockpuppetery. Again he said in a discussion that I'm removing reliable sources to push a "berberist agenda". He also show signs of I just don't like it when confronted with authoritative sources (the Encyclopedia Of Islam). I reported him on 16 June but no discussions have occured. He reverted again today ([306]) and again ([307]). Can someone take a look at this case?-TheseusHeLl (talk) 00:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
User:Walrasiad made a report about this user at AN3 (report). -TheseusHeLl (talk) 04:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Wide-spread issues of vandalism by multiple anonymous editors here
I recently put in a request for page protection of this article. The request details persistent vandalism by several anonymous editors. Each and every one of these editors have been arbitrarily changing the episode air dates on the article in question. Despite numerous invitations for them to do so, none of them are taking the opportunity to cite any sources verifying the informattion they are providing, nor are they taking the matter to the talk page, which they have also been repeatedly invited to do. This is a wide-spread, multi-user effort to disrupt the content of that page, and it's obvious the offending editors have no intention of genuinely contributing to the content and accuracy of the information on that page. Because this is such a wide-spread effort coming from multiple IPs, I am not able to individually warn them against continuing that conduct. I am therefore requesting immediate administrative action against all who have played a part in this issue, which has been a wide-spread problem for weeks and months, with no end in sight. Thank you. --Jgstokes (talk) 22:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like you had to revert these IPs three or four times in the past three weeks, and a few times before that. All you really need to solve the problem is temporary page protection, and you've asked for that fifteen minutes before this post.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Over the last week, it has been less than one per day. You can surely find the time to template one person a day. The IPs are from all over the US, but I'm not convinced it is a concerted effort, for if it is, they aren't very active. I suggest templating the one making mistakes with the right template, which is not the vandalism template, but the "without sources" template. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I am weighing in here again. Firstly, the comments here relating to my report are both technically correct and also technically incorrect. The technical correctness is in the fact that over the last week, there has not been too significant a degree of problems in relation to the issue I described. So if we were talking about the page on the basis of these problematic edits solely within that time, it is correct that I can handle dealing with isolated instances myself. However, the latest string of unverified changes that are not being discussed have been added to the history of the same type of problem that has been occurring on the page off-and-on with varying degrees of misbeahavior for the last half-decade or so at least.
- For the truth of that part of this issue, I present as evidence of the ongoing problems the specific numbered threads as found on the article talk page. The coversations that deal directly with the long-standing issue are found under the topics numbered 8, 9, 23, and 24, just to name the ones most prominently relevant to this long-standing problem that continues to this day. Those conversations demonstrate that these arbitrary date changes have been a problem since 2014 off-and-on, with that being further verified by the number of times in the last 2-4 years that the nature of that vandalism has necessitated a page protection request. Additionally, I recognize that with no one else verifying what I am reporting here, my report may not be taken as accurate. As a second witness, LightandDark2000 has been involved in many prior discussions relating to these unilateral, frequent, wide-spread changes being repeatedly made by anonymous editors who do not cite sources to verify the validity of those edits, and who have thus far refused to discuss the changes, and in fact have repeatedly violated the general consensus that supports reliable sourcing as the basis for such changes.
- If ws were talking about an issue occurring over a limited period of time (such as a week), or a situation where page protection had not been requested repeatedly because of this issue, or a situation that had not continued for more than a half-decade, it would be something I could easily handle myself, and, in fact, requesting intervention here for this issue would then truly be at the height of laziness on my part. But this has been a consistent, wide-spread problem, and the page history of both the main article and its' associated talk page, along with the additional corroboration of the facts by at least one other user hopefully serves as verification that this is something that no one editor or group of editors can handle on our own. I have been an editor here on Wikipedia for almost a full 1.5 decades, and if this was something I could handle on my own, I wouldn't have even broached this subject on this page. I recognize that Wikipedia administrators are busy with issues that would be far more significant than this one if the problem in this case were just a matter of a few isolated instances. But I hope the additional context I have provided by this latest comment proves helpful in enabling all who read it to understand that these are far from isolated instances, and that the matter of the continuing problem needs more attention than I as just a normal editor of the page am able to provide on my own. If nothing that I have additionally laid out here changes the situation, then all I can do is apologize for having wasted your time by mentioning it here. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Jgstokes: when you say "wide-spread", do you actually mean "long term"?ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Jgstokes: The article has now been protected for a week. If problems persist after that, please notify me directly and I'll handle it because I am sympathetic concerning the hassle of dealing with long-term disruption. I haven't checked whether that is the case at the moment, but I would when you contact me, if necessary. Johnuniq (talk) 09:40, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
ToddGrande
BLOCKED | |
ToddGrande blocked per WP:NOTHERE by Doug Weller |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- ToddGrande (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I noticed ToddGrande (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) making changes to a controversial page (the edits were reverted) and going through the user talk page history, it appears ToddGrande might not be listening. I count over 15 warnings that have been blanked on his talk page (including NPA & BLP violations) and it doesn't seem they're doing any good. ("Peasant please...You will learn soon, very soon, Bye" in response to an admin message and "Peasant please, I can get you banned of the internet if I want to do so. #wear a mask #stay safe" in response to Pizzagate edits) I'm not sure why this user is adamant on adding unrelated links (especially ones related to populism and class conflict), but I and probably quite a few other people would appreciate if someone could speak with ToddGrande about how Wikipedia works before this gets further out of hand. APK whisper in my ear 07:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm ready to block for not here and incivility, but I'd like further documentation here first, and confirmation from the community that they agree. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd support a block, his behavior from the start has been problematic and inherently incompatible with editing Wikipedia. Praxidicae (talk) 08:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed. ab initio as it were. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd support a block, his behavior from the start has been problematic and inherently incompatible with editing Wikipedia. Praxidicae (talk) 08:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- There are a lot of bizarre edits, a handful of non-bizarre ones. The editor has also engaged on a handful of Talk pages, but mostly just plain weird. Adding "Doctor" in front of Josef Mengele and then immediately Anthony Fauci is just odd. There were problematic additions of categories See [308] for discussion) too. I don't think this is an evil editor but I think it's one on some kind of mission with some pretty serious communication challenges. Guy (help!) 08:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- JzG Yes, I'd say his reverting every editor that tries to talk to him with
Don't post misinformation here, thanks
12345678 is quite the "communication challenge" if we're being nice about it...Praxidicae (talk) 09:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)- @Praxidicae: Touché! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- JzG Yes, I'd say his reverting every editor that tries to talk to him with
- DS/alert post-1932 politics of the United States and GS/alert for COVID 19 from Doug Weller. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Looks like he hasn't taken the hint Jealousy. --Calton Talk 09:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- The cost of monitoring TG's edits to weed out the violations far outweighs the value of the beneficial contributions. Some kids just don't play nice with the other kids. Time to cut this one loose - NOTHERE. Cabayi (talk) 09:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Done. Doug Weller talk 10:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive edits by 1292simon
I'm starting this discussion again as no action was taken against 1292simon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) in the previous discussion. This user edits BMW articles in a series and adds his preferential changes while deleting content for no reason. Especially at the Espcially at the BMW 5 Series (F10), BMW 5 Series (G30), BMW 3 Series (E36) and BMW 3 Series (E46) articles. As seen on Talk:BMW 5 Series (F10), this user is trying to force his preferred changes to these articles without even attempting to obtain consensus and constantly using WP:BABY in his defense. He was previously warned to stop this edit pattern but instead of avoiding to do that, he continues with the same edit pattern. I request the administration to take appropriate action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by U1Quattro (talk • contribs) 02:06, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hello ANI folks. It is unclear exactly what happened in the 11 hours since the previous thread that warrants another ANI report? Or is U1Quattro trying some double jeopardy thing here? Anyways, here are my article edits during the timeframe in question, I'm happy to discuss if anyone has questions/concerns: Toyota HiAce, Manual transmission, Manual transmission. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 05:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Unexplained content removal, deletion of infobox field and summarising for no reason, same summarising with the infobox, removal of production dates for no reason, removal of infobox fields for no reason, removal of infobox fields and properly sourced content for being unsourced, removal of production dates. These are a few of the diffs of the edit pattern of this user.U1 quattroTALK 02:56, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Man, these mobile diffs are a drag to read or convert to normal diffs. El_C 02:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm on mobile right now, not on a PC. So there's that.U1 quattroTALK 03:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I gathered. Oh well. El_C 03:26, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1292simon it is about your edits pattern which you continue to follow even after being warned in a previous ANI discussion to obtain a consensus about what you're doing. You continue to trim out details from the infobox and remove properly sourced content from BMW articles for no clear reason.U1 quattroTALK 06:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff for the previous ANI discussion? I searched the archives and couldn't find one. Mysticdan (talk) 07:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Here is the warning Mysticdan.U1 quattroTALK 08:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I was kind of forgetful about the notice board. It was actually a report at WP:AN3.U1 quattroTALK 08:09, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- There was also a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1040#Disruptive edits by 1292simon, to which there were no responses. —C.Fred (talk) 14:09, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I was kind of forgetful about the notice board. It was actually a report at WP:AN3.U1 quattroTALK 08:09, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Here is the warning Mysticdan.U1 quattroTALK 08:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff for the previous ANI discussion? I searched the archives and couldn't find one. Mysticdan (talk) 07:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1292simon it is about your edits pattern which you continue to follow even after being warned in a previous ANI discussion to obtain a consensus about what you're doing. You continue to trim out details from the infobox and remove properly sourced content from BMW articles for no clear reason.U1 quattroTALK 06:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I gathered. Oh well. El_C 03:26, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm on mobile right now, not on a PC. So there's that.U1 quattroTALK 03:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- None of those diffs are any newer than 8 days ago. I don't see a pressing need for administrative action as a result. —C.Fred (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Man, these mobile diffs are a drag to read or convert to normal diffs. El_C 02:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Unexplained content removal, deletion of infobox field and summarising for no reason, same summarising with the infobox, removal of production dates for no reason, removal of infobox fields for no reason, removal of infobox fields and properly sourced content for being unsourced, removal of production dates. These are a few of the diffs of the edit pattern of this user.U1 quattroTALK 02:56, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with C.Fred. I would also add, U1Quattro, that looking at the talk page Talk:BMW 5 Series (F10), it seems that 1292simon went right to the talk page after you reverted him, and you immediately went to casting aspersions. I understand you might get frustrated, but all the threats of administration action aren't helpful (or likely true) since admin don't get involved with content, only behavior. Simon is probably getting a bit too bold, but so are you. You both need to take it to a talk page and either have an RFC for the type of changes Simon wants to put in, or hammer it out some how, but this seems to be a good old fashioned content dispute, so there isn't anything for admin to do at this point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes but at BMW 3 Series (E36) and at BMW 5 Series (G30), content was removed without reason. I was just restoring the article to the way it was before. On the other hand, this user is pressing on with the changes and is introducing them in a series in BMW articles without any reason or explanation Dennis Brown. Edit summaries like "Infobox" are not good enough reason for such drastic changes to the infobox. At BMW 5 Series (F10), another user also disagreed with the changes 1292simon was making but he still resorted to edit warring.U1 quattroTALK 14:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Looking specifically at the F10 article, I do not see edits by 1292simon that rise to the level of edit warring. Or, if they do, then U1Quattro is even more guilty of edit warring with their greater number of reverts. —C.Fred (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I note that at the G30 article, U1Quattro added a large chunk of unsourced material, 1292simon reverted it pointing out why, and U1 re-inserted it, claiming that removing it was "disruptive editing" [309]. That doesn't look great, to be honest. Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1292simon here. Regarding the other article where the accusation is "content was removed without reason", I made a dummy edit straight after the one in question, in order to add an Edit Summary (fat finger error... IIRC I accidentally pressed the Enter key instead of Shift key when at the start of typing in an Edit Summary). It's pretty obvious what happened, so U1Quattro probably knows this and is just trying to score a point here. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 21:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Looking specifically at the F10 article, I do not see edits by 1292simon that rise to the level of edit warring. Or, if they do, then U1Quattro is even more guilty of edit warring with their greater number of reverts. —C.Fred (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes but at BMW 3 Series (E36) and at BMW 5 Series (G30), content was removed without reason. I was just restoring the article to the way it was before. On the other hand, this user is pressing on with the changes and is introducing them in a series in BMW articles without any reason or explanation Dennis Brown. Edit summaries like "Infobox" are not good enough reason for such drastic changes to the infobox. At BMW 5 Series (F10), another user also disagreed with the changes 1292simon was making but he still resorted to edit warring.U1 quattroTALK 14:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- Black Kite the material was properly sourced and sources were present in the article, infact at the end of the section. Three sources were present. You're taking assumptions without even reading the sources.U1 quattro TALK 02:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1292simon and you're trying to be innocent by making statements like that I knew that you were making dummy edits. No I don't and don't have the time to see the dummy edits and neither what keys you're pressing. I check the edits in main space and you removed content without reason which is what the main space indicates. You are in the wrong here, accept that. The diff you posted is not even a dummy edit either.U1 quattroTALK 02:59, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Mysdictan it was redirecting me to the diff where I reverted Simon's edits. Later on, he changed the link. I don't know what he's trying to achieve here in the first place. Because he sure is not innocent as he is presenting himself to be.U1 quattro TALK 08:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Right ok, I see that he edited the link. I'd suggest a bit of AGF and get back to discussing this content disagreement on the relevant talk pages. Mysticdan (talk) 09:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- After this ANI thread. Now he is actually discussing issues on the talk page rather than restoring his preferred version and then discussing the issues.U1 quattro TALK 10:43, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Rwbest
- Rwbest (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Rwbest is a sporadically-active editor with a narrow editing focus, notably advancing the views of Mark Z. Jacobson (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views). He has edit-warred there numerous times, see previous warning for example, and WP:OWNs the article Worldwide energy supply (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views) ([310]), which is related. Jacobson is best known to a lay audience for suing people who wrote a paper critical of his ideas, which was gleefully seized on by climate change deniers. That suit was dismissed and Jacobson has just been ordered to pay dmaages and costs related to it. Quick as a flash up pops Rwbest to make sure it's sympathetically on the article on Jacobson, as noted by The Banner on WP:RFPP just now. As a WP:SPA with a history of edit-warring and civil POV-pushing, I think Rwbest should be banned from that article. Guy (help!) 13:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I only try to make a more neutral and accurate description of the lawsuit. Rwbest (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Rwbest, so you said last time, and were warned thast no, this is not the effect of your edits. Guy (help!) 15:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive364#User:Rwbest reported by User:JzG (Result:_Warned) quote: I only try to improve the lead which is not a proper summary at all and unfair towards Jacobson.. The Banner talk 09:36, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I only try to make a more neutral and accurate description of the lawsuit. Rwbest (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
It is really interesting to see that the blocked user:Mark Z. Jacobson is now asking for a block for me. In fact with the same arguments that Rwbest is using: "defamatory comments" and "Motions for an Award of Attorney's Fees and Costs". Note that the "frivolous lawsuit" is a quote from the given source. It looks like Rwbest needed auxiliary troops to shift the blame to me. The Banner talk 17:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- And the source given is not about the actual case, but separate motions about who has to pay the costs and fees of the original case. ([311]), invoking Strategic lawsuit against public participation. The Banner talk 18:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note: Jacobson is now also asking for a block of JzG. The Banner talk 18:26, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've reverted the personal attacks and the rant there and revoked their talk page access. That's a textbook example of what NOT to do when you are blocked. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- RickinBaltimore, thank you - I am normally keen for BLP subjects to be able to edit their talk pages, but Jacobson does a striking impression of Captain Grievance. Guy (help!) 22:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've reverted the personal attacks and the rant there and revoked their talk page access. That's a textbook example of what NOT to do when you are blocked. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The present kerfuffle seems to be about a single sentence that's currently at the end of the lead and another sentence that says the same thing in the body. These sentences have been the focus of a total of 14 edits, 6 of which were made by Rwbest. The scale of this dispute is, by Wikipedia standards, tiny and any disruptive editing hasn't yet risen to the level of a topic ban for anyone, in my opinion. I can't see why this can't be dealt with by normal editing processes. I do think we have some serious BLP sourcing problems here - the sentences in question have cite two sources, one of which is a Forbes Contributor source and therefore completely unsuitable for a BLP, and the other of which appears to be a database of primary sources. I'll follow up with edits to the article and talk page, and I'm optimistic we can come to consensus on the content. Clayoquot (talk contribs) 02:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- If this was the first time, you would have a point. But it is not. Just see Talk:Mark Z. Jacobson. The Banner talk 10:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Rwbest/Archive from 2018, where the same type of editing was at stake. And as I stated there: The most positive options seems to be that Rwbest is working for or working on behalf of Mark Z. Jacobson, having an undeclared COI (...). The Banner talk 18:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Clayoquot, no, it's about Rwbest's stunningly accurate impression of being Jacobson's PR. Guy (help!) 11:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
RickinBaltimore I actually found user:Mark Z. Jacobson's talk page comments useful in flagging BLP issues with the content in his biography. I'd suggest his talk page access be restored with a warning to comment on content not contributors. Clayoquot (talk contribs) 02:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not comfortable doing that myself, however if another admin wishes to do so, they certainly can. As a blocked user however, he should be trying to request an unblock, not continue a dispute with other editors. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mark Z. Jacobson's talk page comments were clearly inappropriate. He's using his talk page to harass and abuse other editors, and if you look through the page history, it's mostly just a place for him to post angry rants and his very skewed views on what should and should not be in his article. Re-enabling his talk page wouldn't do anyone any good, least of all him. No opinion on Rwbest, since I'm unfamiliar with the larger history. All I can say is that neither he nor The Banner come out of their recent exchange looking good. They edit-warred over recently added material on the article for several days. Neither of them posted on the talk page until I brought up the issue [312]. Rwbest has not commented, and The Banner posted only to say that he's not going to talk about article content until this report is resolved [313]. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Correction: I suggested to wait with the content discussion until this case was closed. I have enough experience with Rwbest to know that these two discussion will be mixed up. See also this as example of his whitewashing. The Banner talk 16:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see why a content discussion should wait for an ANI discussion. The content of the article is what's important, and it doesn't need to wait for the result of this discussion. Obviously you don't have to participate, but I think it's strange that you would edit-war on the article and then choose not to say anything in a discussion of the content you were editing. And are you sure that's the link you intended to put there? That's just a dif of Rwbest removing material from his own talk page. With very few exceptions, every editor has the right to remove anything from their talk page at any time. That's not "whitewashing". Red Rock Canyon (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Correction: I suggested to wait with the content discussion until this case was closed. I have enough experience with Rwbest to know that these two discussion will be mixed up. See also this as example of his whitewashing. The Banner talk 16:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
IPV6 editor copying and pasting copyrighted material into mathematics articles
Over on WP:AIV, I reported
- 2601:647:4f00:1de0:4525:150:be3d:a242 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) on Henda Swart and Richard Rado
- 2601:641:481:59c0:8815:5cc6:8360:62ae (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) on Jeanette McLeod and Nash-Williams theorem
- 2601:646:8000:40F0:182C:BA13:8A41:31B0 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) on Four color theorem and Five color theorem
as adding large quantities of material that is relevant but copied from internet and copyrighted sources to these articles; I also revdelled the edits and left an unheeded warning on one of the addresses. Obviously the shifting addresses make single-address blocks ineffective; for the same reason, although I will leave ANI discussion notices on the three talk pages above, I doubt they'll be seen. Anyway I asked on AIV whether it would be possible to search this range of IPs for more similar bad edits, in case there were some I missed (likely), and whether the range of culprit addresses would narrow enough for a rangeblock to be effective. However, instead of getting action or a useful reply, I was referred to this board as a more appropriate place for this sort of urgent-but-not-immediate action, and my report was then immediately archived. So: are there more incidences that I missed? Would a rangeblock work? —David Eppstein (talk) 05:29, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, the range (2601:640::/29) is way too large, you can't even see the contributions [314]. Cabayi (talk) 09:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's too bad. In the meantime I spotted another (some of whose edits I'd already reverted but failed to connect to this pattern):
- 2601:647:4001:5fb0:c4f0:77d6:f5f7:1dd4 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) on Mohammad Hajiaghayi, Shimon Even, and Michael Scott Jacobson
- this led me to
- FahdBougachouch (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) on Mohammad Hajiaghayi and Wilfried Imrich
- with a very similar pattern of edits (basically copying in what looks like the subject's cv directly)
- —David Eppstein (talk) 16:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's too bad. In the meantime I spotted another (some of whose edits I'd already reverted but failed to connect to this pattern):
Disruptive editing, unreliable sources, inaccurate additions
Requesting a block on User:Editor.Eqbal for persistent disruptive editing, edit warring and breaching the three-revert rule (by introducing inadequately sourced, factually inaccurate content), and for ignoring warnings by various users. You may see the revision history of List of largest mosques, User talk:Editor.Eqbal and for my efforts at educating and discussing the issue with the user: User talk:Idell/Archive 1#June 2020. The user also continued to perform reverts while the discussion was on-going, without having reached consensus. Idell (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Idell: What User:Idell describes as "inadequately sourced, factually inaccurate content" is a piece of information for which I have mentioned totally appropriate reference as you can see in my revision. From his/her viewpoint, my reference is not fully reliable, while the reference he has replaced with that of mine, if not more, is at least equally disputable. It is truly disappointing that this user is trying to force his point and prevent others from contributing through threatening them. This aside, this user has removed the opening paragraph of the article without offering any explanation. Just because there was a mention of the largest mosque by area, he has removed that (but I restored it). This evidently shows that he is not pleased to see any mention of the Imam Reza Shrine, even if in a sentence a comparison among the mosques is made based on their area (not capacity). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editor.Eqbal (talk • contribs)
- Editor.Eqba, you have not argued for the reliability of the source you keep using. You have not sought the talk page to discuss these things (that's where you should argue your website is an acceptable source). You keep accusing other editors of "destruction" and bias, and you continue to edit war. (And you don't even sign your posts.) I am going to revert your last edit, and cite it as disruptive. I will warn you on your talk page as well, for improper sourcing and for edit warring. And if you continue, I will block you from editing this article. So it's your choice: either discuss this, with arguments and without personal attacks, on the talk page and try to gain consensus, or don't edit the article anymore. Drmies (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why are EE's contribution history not shown? GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Editor.Eqbal (note the "l" at the end). 87.112.210.62 (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Editor.Eqba, you have not argued for the reliability of the source you keep using. You have not sought the talk page to discuss these things (that's where you should argue your website is an acceptable source). You keep accusing other editors of "destruction" and bias, and you continue to edit war. (And you don't even sign your posts.) I am going to revert your last edit, and cite it as disruptive. I will warn you on your talk page as well, for improper sourcing and for edit warring. And if you continue, I will block you from editing this article. So it's your choice: either discuss this, with arguments and without personal attacks, on the talk page and try to gain consensus, or don't edit the article anymore. Drmies (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: I ask you a very clear question: You have accused me of making "disruptive" edits, but please tell me that why has the user on the other side of the dispute, namely User:Idell, has removed the opening paragraph of the List of largest mosques without mentioning any explanation. What was wrong with that paragraph? Why don't you see it as a destruction and vandalizing? That paragraph has nothing to do with our dispute over the capacity of the Imam Reza Shrine. So why has he removed that and why when I restore that paragraph, instead of thanking me you revert it without asking the initial remover to offer explanations?Editor.Eqbal (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Editor.Eqbal, I had edited the lead section of the article to make it less ambiguous. It also doesn’t need to explain what "mosque" and other terms mean, as any reader can look into their specific articles using the WikiLinks. Please take a look at how other lists’ lead sections are written: eg List of largest libraries. Idell (talk) 17:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Editor.Eqbal, because that edit was explained and look, prima facie, acceptable. You did not, in any of your edit summaries, explain that you had an issue with that edit, so pulling that out of your hat right now is a bit shady. Drmies (talk) 21:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: I ask you a very clear question: You have accused me of making "disruptive" edits, but please tell me that why has the user on the other side of the dispute, namely User:Idell, has removed the opening paragraph of the List of largest mosques without mentioning any explanation. What was wrong with that paragraph? Why don't you see it as a destruction and vandalizing? That paragraph has nothing to do with our dispute over the capacity of the Imam Reza Shrine. So why has he removed that and why when I restore that paragraph, instead of thanking me you revert it without asking the initial remover to offer explanations?Editor.Eqbal (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Any further discussion of the content issue should take place at Talk:List of largest mosques where no human being has commented for over 13 months. As for the reliability of Largest.org, the place to discuss that is the Reliable sources noticeboard. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Page on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Romary
User Travelerone1 and also 75.110.96.60 seem to be the same person / account or related persons in the same area. Neither has a talk page to notify them on.
Peter Romary is currently the Defendant in a lawsuit and the above user(s) have refused to go to Talk Page and discuss - they appear to be a person who is known to law enforcement and is being looked into for obstruction of justice for things being done here and on other social media sites (Facebook). I won't name and I don't wish to make any threats as I am simply a person who has tried to request balance to this page.
A UK lawyer came on and clarified the position of Judge John Romary. Also it seems that a lot of personal attacks, innuendo, inflammatory language and allegations with no supporting documentation is being posted. I do not intend to back and forth with people who seem bent on attacking someone and undoing changes supported by evidence and articles. But would ask to see if the above are engaged in sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry and whether they can be blocked and someone can go on and make this an encyclopedic article rather than some type of attack forum.
While looking I also found, that someone posted on Facebook, this page which seems to be nothing more than a free range violation of Wikipedia policies from start to finish and a full on personal attack using a Wikipedia userpage as a forum with nothing but the unsupported writings of someone who claims they were once hired (and then employment discontinued) by Romary. It also seems that the page owner transferred the top part of the page onto his Talk page when the author tried to take it down, telling said author "do not delete things" (even those that violate Wikipedia policies) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dreddhk
The whole thing seems a mess — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.109.69.209 (talk) 16:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Christ, all that stuff by User:Travelerone1 was pure BLPVIO (which they've bring doing since November 2019): I've removed the unsourced ad blog- etc sourced crap. For a hit job, Al Neri couldn't have done better. Admin, might wanna scrub some of it. ——Serial # 16:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
-
Done.
[T]ied to several devious acts
— really?El_C 16:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
-
- El C you might wanna just block them, they don't appear to be here for anything good. Praxidicae (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Let's see if the warnings and DS alert will make a meaningful difference. But I agree that this is block-worthy territory, for sure. El_C 17:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- A barnstar to whomever can explain the meaning of
the claim that Peter did the Fan Dance at the request of the SAS
. EEng 03:37, 28 June 2020 (UTC)- EEng, I think it means that someone named "Peter" did a dance called the "Fan Dance" when asked by the SAS. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 19:28, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is an EXCELLENT picture of a fan dance and the fans are large, feathery and exceptional... I can see, or should I say "I have a friend who can see" the allure of it, perhaps, you need to give that picture to Dreddhk to add to his collection! I yield to your superiority in this arena and bow out of the competition for the Barnstar. ZeusBeard2018 (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- An interesting thought that perhaps, in the mind of the author of the talk page, s/he was fired from designing web pages because s/he either a) photo-shopped pictures of naked men dancing with fans or b) s/he liked to mock up videos of people dancing with fans while developers from the SAS Institute [[315]] 'coincidentally' based in NC, kept track of how many people watched. Sort of like the SNL sketch where Patrick Stewart was a cake maker who only made cakes of women going to the bathroom? Right or wrong, that has got to be worth a Barnstar?
I know a lot of people hate lawyers, but it seems some of these folks have taken things to the extreme - that talk page has been up for years (someone got hand-bitten for taking down what they put up) and it's Twilight Zone. Seems whenever people took stuff down (Judge) Dreddhk would put it back up, and then claim s/he was victim of bullying. Maybe some BDSM with those fans? Police in the UK may be different from here, but in the experience of "friends" in my condo complex, one of who told me about all this, police don't bring people in for questioning a couple of times, nor can people just "send them around" without evidence and a good reason. But apparently the author is saying s/he was talking to the elderly folks who were sicking the police on him. (Could have been spelling police as his spelling "paraniod" "quiet some time" also, where is the nation of "apathy" where the web site died? And this was the person the UK police were supposed to be asking for a psychological analysis?). This stuff is weird, but can I get a Barnstar for effort? ZeusBeard2018 (talk) 20:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Help regarding edits by User:Febb011
BLOCKED | |
Febb011 blocked due to sock-puppetry along with other socks by NinjaRobotPirate (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 19:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:TheTruthExplorerZZ is disappointed by deletion of RPT Inc. (Bokaro) (a PR piece that failed WP:CORP) and supposed WP:SOCK User:Febb011 has started ranting about it at my talk page. See Special:Contributions/Febb011 has started arguing/harassing at User_talk:Amkgp#Is_RPT_Inc._(Bokaro)_now_improved?. Please help. Thank you. ~ Amkgp 💬 05:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
I am not disappointed by any deletion. I just is naturally asking why did ~ Amkgp considered my article for deletion. He is purposely and forcefully calling my discussions as 'Harassing'. You can see there's nothing such as harassing.
Thank You.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheTruthExplorerZZ (talk • contribs)
Confirmed to each other:
- IndependentInformer (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- IndependentAndTruth (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- TheTruthExplorerZZ (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Febb011 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- One of them temporarily had a COI userbox but removed it. Seems a bit fishy to me. I'll block them all. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:18, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Are administrators using discretion appropriately around the Killing of George Floyd?
I'm going to assume Geo Swan gets the point, and just close this. No need to summarize what should be obvious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am concerned some administrators may be using discretion inappropriately around the Killing of George Floyd, and the constellation of related articles.
In particular there is an individual associated with one of the officers who played a role in Floyd's killing whose lawyer issued a press release stating the individual related to the officer was going to change their name because they had received death threats. There are half a dozen administrators who are revdel'ing, blocking, and issuing block warnings to prevent both wikipedia article space, and our other namespaces, from providing any hint to that individual's name.
I don't want this section of WPANI to be revdel'd, so I won't name the individual, or provide diffs to discussions that give hints to their identity.
Maybe it seemed obvivous to those administrators who claimed authority under WP:BLP to suppress material that mentions this individual, that they qualify for WP:BLPNAME. In doing so they have described the individual as non-notable. But, in fact, this individual does not meet the criteria for BLP1E, having RS coverage of their own, in 2018. Nor do they measure up to the BLPNAME criteria that states it applies to individuals whose names were not already "widely disseminated".
When I did a google search on this individual's name in early June I got 269,000 hits. I suggest anyone with this level of web search results has a "widely disseminated" name.
I fully support applying BLPNAME to this individual's NEW NAME. The individual's NEW NAME would meet the not "widely disseminated" criteria of BLPNAME. The OLD NAME, on the other hand, has been so widely dessiminated that applying BLPNAME protection to it is completely pointless.
I asked administrator David Eppstein to explain an instance where he revdel'd a comment I left on an article's talk page. Instead of answering he characterized my question as an instance of "spamming". The closest he got to an explanation was a comment that said "revdelled, although at least it only gave [the old] name."
Yeah, but does the very widely disseminated old name meet the criteria for BLPNAME protection? I think only the barely disseminated new name merits protection. And I am not sure anyone could justify excising or revdeling an edit that referenced an RS article, merely because the RS mentioned the new name, if the new name was not included in article space.
I started working on a draft of an article on the second most experienced officer who played a role in Floyd's death, User:Geo Swan/Tou Thao. That draft does not mention the individual who is changing their name. But some of the references that draft article would use do contain a single sentence with a passing mention to that individual's old name name. So I have the references saved, elsewhere.
I do not think I should have to exercise this kind of caution over using perfectly respectable references, because the RS mentions a name an administrator thinks is subject to BLPNAME protection.
I do my best to comply with all our project's explicit policies and guidelines. I think I do a pretty good job. I will do my best to comply with a consensus that followed a real discussion, that reaches a conclusion that is an interpretation of a wrinkle not explicitly stated in a policy or guideline.
But I don't like being expected to comply with vague warnings that seem to be based on administrator's gut feelings, when they can't or won't back that gut feeling up with a link to a meaningful discussion.
I'd like the opinions of contributors over:
- When, if ever, should BLPNAME be applied to widely disseminated names?
- Should BLPNAME be applied to very widely disseminated names, merely because the individual in question starts the legal process of changing their name?
- In this particular case, shouldn't BLPNAME protection be reserved for the barely disseminated NEW NAME?
- Can RS be used that contain passing mentions to a name we decided to protect as per BLPNAME, if we do not include that name in article space?
- Should I restore the references to User:Geo Swan/Tou Thao, even if they may contain a passing mention of a name that might be subject to BLPNAME protection?
- Should another adminstrator revert all the revdel's that inappropriately protected a name that wasn't really eligible for BLPNAME protection?
Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
P.S. There have been at least half a dozen other administrators whose use of authority on articles and talk pages related to the killing struck me as based on gut feelings, not policy, which I didn't mention here, to keep this from growing any longer. Geo Swan (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- See earlier closed discussion of the same topic at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1039 § Redirect links to <redacted>, which Geo Swan knows about because Geo Swan participated, and which was in agreement that removal of this information is appropriate. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- David Eppstein, the record does show you and I both weighed in, in a discussion, on June 14th. You may not believe me, but I did not remember this discussion, when I pinged you on June 21st. If I remembered it, I would have taken it into account in my initial comment here.
I did a couple of searches of the WPANI archives, prior to leaving this comment, and that section did not come up, due to the redaction.
Note: the June 14th discussion does not clarify whether you plan to continue to revdel edits where good faith contributors use RS when the RS contains a passing mention of someone you think merits protection. Geo Swan (talk) 23:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- The June 14th discussion also does not clarify whether you intend to continue violating the privacy of private individuals. If you do, it is possible that I will revdel them. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- David Eppstein, the record does show you and I both weighed in, in a discussion, on June 14th. You may not believe me, but I did not remember this discussion, when I pinged you on June 21st. If I remembered it, I would have taken it into account in my initial comment here.
- Generally speaking, if there's a question of whether or not the inclusion of personal information may lead to harm, and no firm consensus to include it anyway, then it is redactable. See WP:DONOHARM for guidance. That someone would argue otherwise (that we should publish everything and wait for it to be a problem) is a good indication that they should not edit BLPs. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- As I recall, this content had been challenged and removed, requiring consensus to add back. As there were concerns about potential exposure to real life problems of someone not the subject of the article, revdeling seemed the best course. If consensus emerges to add it back then I will be happy to unrevdel. Or any other admin, as always, is free to revert my actions if they believe I've erred. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please see the relevant discussion on my talk page at Special:permalink/963962842#Teachable moments. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why are we creating articles on the officers involved which is pretty much against BLPCRIME? I don't care that they are getting additional scrutiny but these are not people that yet have the dozens of analyses of someone like Lee Harvey Oswald or Charles Mason in the annuls of history. This is why when it comes to these events the fewer articles on the actual crime (people involved) the better to avoid issues like if we have to worry about BLPNAME as much like this in the first place. As to that David Eppstein and others have done, I'm in full agreement to avoid naming any names when there have been known death threats made to these people as reported in RSes. Yes, we can't stop any reader from figuring it out themselves, but we should not be that vector for people to learn that bit of information. --Masem (t) 23:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- If you're using a source for an a different matter, and it's a reliable source, and it happens to mention in the article's text the name of the individual, I don't think that's an issue, especially if it can't be avoided. As for including the name of the individual, looking at David Eppstein's link which has more information about this individual, and without further digging, I can hardly imagine an encyclopaedic purpose for inclusion of her name, but I can think of multiple for exclusion of her name. Wikipedia has greater responsibilities to BLPs than just trying to lawyer around specific wordings of policy pages (which, by the way, alone don't even necessarily reflect the intentions and consensus behind said policy). Unless there's an encyclopaedic purpose for inclusion I don't see why it should be included, especially if the individual has been receiving death threats due to their prior relationship with an involved officer. Even if such information is widely available, Wikipedia doesn't need to participate in, or aid in, encouraging that kind of conduct without good reason for content inclusion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:16, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- This complaint has no merit and approaches being disruptive. Part of GeoSwan’s argument relates to content, which does not get debated or decided at this board. As for his complaint against administrators and the actions they are taking, they are not acting arbitrarily or based on their own “gut feelings”; they are enforcing the result of an earlier discussion on this board and the consensus reached at the article's talk page. Which GeoSwan knows perfectly well, because as David Eppstein points out, GeoSwan took part in the ANI discussion, where he argued to include information about her even if we don’t name her. That viewpoint did not carry the day; as per that discussion we merely say that the officer’s wife has filed for divorce. There was also a talk page discussion a few weeks ago, see Talk:Derek Chauvin/Archive 1#Privacy issue, where GeoSwan again argued for inclusion of the name, again failed to win consensus, and was advised to drop it. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another more interesting question would be
Should editors who use Wikipedia to right great wrongs by naming and shaming individual cogs in the wheel be indeffed?
. Put me in the yes camp. Johnuniq (talk) 00:08, 30 June 2020 (UTC) - Just last week in the thread DFO linked above on his talk page [316], EEng pointed out to Geo Swan that the "not widely disseminated" proviso of WP:BLPNAME reads in full "has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed". Despite acknowledging in the OP that the person
change[d] their name because they had received death threats
, i.e. "intentionally concealed", Geo Swan talks about the "widely disseminated" language but does not address at all the "intentionally concealed" language. To me, that's WP:IDHT and thus disruptive. Levivich[dubious – discuss] 00:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC) - Jesus fuck, this again? I said all I need to say at Special:permalink/963962842#Teachable moments (that's a repeat of a link given by Deepfriedokra earlier in this thread). Geo Swan, at long last what's wrong with you? Stop wasting everyone's time with your preoccupation with this or you're going to end up like Neelix. EEng 00:27, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- The person in question is trying to conceal their identity and their lawyers report that they and their family have been subjected to harassment and death threats. In my opinion, Geo Swan should receive an indefinite topic ban on any content relating to living people or recently deceased people if Geo Swan fails to drop the stick and continues to flog this hobby horse of theirs. In the spirit of full disclosure, I gave Geo Swan a somewhat narrower warning about this issue on June 16. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Uninvolved intervention required at white genocide conspiracy theory
(non-admin closure) Indefinitely blocked for WP:NOTHERE behaviour. Darkknight2149 08:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Talk:White genocide conspiracy theory (edit subject history links watch logs)
- Glahera476 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Requesting an outside admin to swiftly block the user above. They hijacked an edit request on this talk page to rant about, well, I'll let you guess. I rolled up their insistence that the white race really is dying out, in response to which they've spent the last 14 hours plastering the page with walls of text about the real meaning of the swastika and how we don't talk about how blue eyes are going extinct (????) and are now resorting to blanking the page, tinkering with the top-of-page FAQ and DS templates, and editing other users' comments. They need to be given something else to do. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
(Redacted) Glahera476 20:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- I read about four sentences of Glahera476's comments before getting a headache. Blocked indef per WP:NOTHERE. I suspect we have a thrilling unblock request to look forward to. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:36, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Not Following Policy with Results Box - War of 1812 article
This is not an intractable incident. Please discuss on the article talk page or the respective policy page. Thank you. El_C 12:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A recent discussion and vote, proposed by Peacemaker67 and supported by myself and Ykraps was held to change the Results box of the War_of_1812. Because of the nature of the War of 1812, the results box had a list of various events and outcomes in it. The policy on the results box is clear, it says that you either have a statement like "American Victory" "British Victory" or "inconclusive". Otherwise, if there is disagreement, you link to the section in the article where the reader can read the detail, as opposed to including a list of items in the results box. That policy is here.
- The wording of the policy is
- "result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note *can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
The results box was changed to reflect the policy and to remove the list of statements and to link to the relevant section. It has now been reverted a number of times by User:Davide King, and once again, the results box includes a number of items, against suggested wikipedia policy. I've stopped reverting it not, in order to avoid an edit war. Could an admin please look at the page, and confirm this is policy? Thank you! Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- It isn't "policy", it is notes on the use of a template, and even within Milhist there are differences of opinion and ongoing discussion about the wording. The real issue here is failing to respect consensus and/or failing to use DR. This could be easily resolved with a neutrally-worded RfC. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- My issue is that this is not consensus and that we should wait for this. Furthermore, I find it weird we are discussing this when the consensus is clear and thus
Inconclusive
should be the Result as that satisfies both the template's parameter policy and the consensus of historians (i.e. draw/stalemate). You want to push the view that there is a dispute among historians or no consensus when there indeed is consensus; and you want to give undue and unwarranted weight to the minority view that the result was anything other than a draw/stalemate.--Davide King (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)- Firstly, if you read the article, there are two viewpoints there. Not one. There is the majority viewpoint (mostly US Historians) that the war was a draw. There is the minority viewpoint (mostly Canadian and British historians) that the war was a win for Canada. If the article came to the conclusion it was a draw then the results box should reflect that. It doesn't. It says that there are different views on it. The results box can't just take one side, and ignore the other. That's why the parameter policy should be used and linked to the section. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Secondly, why wasn't peacemaker's proposal consensus? We discussed it for a month. Three of us agree, and there was one dissent. No one else commented. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is because there was a discussion about whether there even was a national bias in the first place and a request for comments is all Not support, so what are you even talking about? The whole thing you are basing it on for your proposal does not even have consensus in the first place! You were the only one to support that! Again, just because at the same no one else replied yet, it does not mean a mere 3–1 (which would be 3–2 with me) equals consensus, especially when it was not even "advertised" to get more users' participation.--Davide King (talk) 12:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Wow, it’s a good thing this article has an infobox! —JBL (talk) 11:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Seriously, I can name you 22 US historians that say it was a draw. There's only three US authors that say it was a win for Canada. What is that? Coincidence?. Even look at the Wikipedia editors on here. The US editors argue for the draw theory, and the Canadians and non Americans tend to support the Canadian win theory. Of course there are different views, based on where you come from. Also,how can you justify excluding one viewpoint from the article, just because a lesser amount of people support it? Its still a valid viewpoint, supported by respected Historians. Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:13, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Rude editor
Boro people (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views) --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
One editor has reverted my edit with WP:BE tag. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/964873172 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:3A80:162C:3FF1:137B:5E68:7831:A1E6 (talk • contribs)
- And this rises to the level of ANI because..? Praxidicae (talk) 10:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- Praxidicae, probably because we have at least two LTAs active in this area: Sairg and Qwertywander. Guy (help!) 21:28, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This rises to level of ANI because nobody is allowed to add ( reliable sourced ) anything by that user. If somebody will try to add something then that user revert and involve in edit warring. All the new users have to permission to from him. Sorry, I'm weak in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4065:e87:3825:6c43:b55d:21b4:604b (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- JzG Please ignore these LTAs. Either you're not aware about reality or you trust someone who easily cheat you. God bless you. 2409:4065:18A:9A32:C407:1819:CD38:A08 (talk) 07:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
IP holding a personal grudge
- 219.111.143.51 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This IP seems to have a grudge against another IP known as 76.65.28.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and keeps changing their edits with the reason being that their grammar is poor. I do not know if these IPs know each other in real life, but it seems odd for a IP to target the edits of a specific IP. SuperGoose007 (Honk!) 18:08, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
I definitely don't know him in real life. What an absurd accusation; if anything, I would suspect you seem to have some sort of grudge against me. I have already said the reasoning behind my edits many, many times, and you've ignored me each time. The reason I am editing his edits are because they are disruptive. Among the things he does: changes the birthdays of living people to incorrect birthdays, change the episode counts of television shows to incorrect episode counts, switches the names of male and female characters in plot summaries, etc. I don't have time to sift through any more of his edits though, so hopefully a moderator of Wikipedia or somebody else can help revert all the other edits he made to birthdays of living people. 219.111.143.51 (talk) 18:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Shayantani Twisha big-time spammer
BLOCKED INDEFINITELY | |
For spam only account by Deepfriedokra (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 19:19, 29 June 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Armanhq (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- They hijacked the Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin and replaced it with Shayantani Twisha spam.
- They moved the Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin page to Shayantani Twisha.
- They then replaced the Shahan page with the Shayantani Twisha material.
- They then created a new Shayantani page.
- They also created Shayantanii Twisha.
- They created [Shayantanii Twisha]] (twice, in fact, as it was subsequently draftified and moved back into mainspace).
- They have also created the User:Shayantani Twisha user account previously.
- In fact, their entire contribution history—excluding the first eight—have been to insert spam regarding you-know-who into every project space they could access. The question for your consideration: Here...or not?——Serial # 11:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd have just reported them as a SOA at AIV. Ain't nobody got time for vanity crap. ;) Praxidicae (talk) 11:25, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- I blocked indefinitely as a Spam only account. Any admin feel free to undo if this was undue. G'night.y'all. (This sounds familiar. Would not be surprised in sock puppetry were afoot.) --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Pointless, disruptive editing in math articles
- 176.88.99.156 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Was blocked by user EdJohnston.
Was again reported at AIV for edit warring after block expiration. Declined by user Ad Orientem: [317]
- 176.88.98.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Was reported at AIV again for disruptive editing, edit warring, as another instance of 176.88.99.156. User Ad Orientem declined block but a page was protected: [318]
Now IP continues to impose their view on mathematics formatting and ignores all undo's by various users Deacon Vorbis, D.Lazard, Joel B. Lewis, myself.
Both IP's noticed on their talk pages. - DVdm (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- I partially blocked the IP for a week so they are unable to edit articles. I left a message at their talk asking them to discuss the proposed changes on article talk. Let me know if further problems arise. Johnuniq (talk) 11:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: thanks, though it looks like you only did one of the two IP addresses, and in particular not the one they were using this morning? --JBL (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I should have changed the order—most recent first. User Johnuniq or someone else, can you please verify? Thx. - DVdm (talk) 11:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- They're still at it, from the .248 address. --JBL (talk) 12:09, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Fwiw, also reported now again at AIV: [319]. - DVdm (talk) 13:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- The person behind these IPs seems likely to continue indefinitely.There are at least six different single IPs that show this pattern of edits. I think a 2-month block of Special:Contributions/176.88.96.0/22 will do the job, and there is little collateral, so I'm going ahead with that. Other admins can modify if they think there is a better way. EdJohnston (talk) 14:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Let's hope that does the job. Thanks, EdJohnston. - DVdm (talk) 16:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- The person behind these IPs seems likely to continue indefinitely.There are at least six different single IPs that show this pattern of edits. I think a 2-month block of Special:Contributions/176.88.96.0/22 will do the job, and there is little collateral, so I'm going ahead with that. Other admins can modify if they think there is a better way. EdJohnston (talk) 14:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Fwiw, also reported now again at AIV: [319]. - DVdm (talk) 13:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- They're still at it, from the .248 address. --JBL (talk) 12:09, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, brain failure re the wrong IP. I intended to partially block the IP that edited most recently. Thanks to admins who fixed. If it resurfaces, I would be happy to look. Johnuniq (talk) 00:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I should have changed the order—most recent first. User Johnuniq or someone else, can you please verify? Thx. - DVdm (talk) 11:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: thanks, though it looks like you only did one of the two IP addresses, and in particular not the one they were using this morning? --JBL (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)