위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive911

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기타 링크

사용자:SWASTIK 25 위반 WP:NFCC#9

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자가 WP를 계속 위반하는 경우:NFCC#9 페이지의 사용자:SWASTIK 25/스포츠 통계 & 트라이비아스(Sports Statistics & Trivias) 및 그의 토크 페이지에서 경고를 삭제함. --Stefan2 (토크) 14:22, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

WP를 위반하지 않았다.NFCC#9는 두 번 이상(잘못된 일이기는 하지만)그리고 Stefan2는 내 개인적인 대화 페이지에서 무엇을 유지하거나 제거할지를 결정할 권한이 없다.감사합니다.스와스티크 차크라보르티(사용자 대화) 14:34, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
엄밀히 말하면, 삭제하는 것이 아니라 보관하는 것이 권장되지만, 최소한 경고만 듣고 싶으면 삭제해도 된다. --ArsenalFan700 (대화) 15:19, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그건 옳지 않아.오늘 세 번이나 비자유 콘텐츠를 다시 게시하셨습니다. --Stefan2 (토크) 14:43, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
Stefan2, SWASTIK 25는 여기서 이미지를 제거했다가 다시 코멘트를 한 후 SWASTIK 25는 이미지가 실제로 없는 것으로 변경했다. 여기를 참조하십시오.그 때 잘못 돌려놓으셨군요.그래서 나는 여기서 해야 할 일이 아무것도 없다고 본다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:22, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
흠. 에코는 나의 편집이 번복되었다고 보고했고, 이것은 나를 혼란스럽게 했다.그렇다면 할 일이 없어 보인다. --Stefan2 (대화) 15:29, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
아, 그리고 그렇다, 사용자들은 그들의 토크 페이지에서 경고를 삭제하는 것이 허용된다. 이것은 보통 그들이 그것을 읽었다는 표시로 받아들여진다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:26, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워! 제베디:) — 스와스티크 차크라보르티 (사용자 대화) 20:47, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
안녕 스와스티크 차크라보티.우리는 우리가 편집하거나 만든 기사보다 더 이상 우리의 사용자 페이지를 소유하지 않는다.사용자 페이지는 기술적으로 누구나 편집할 수 있지만 일반적으로 다른 사용자의 페이지를 편집하는 것은 부적절하다고 여겨진다.경험 많은 편집자들은 WP에 열거된 사항과 같이 정책 기반에 근거한 좋은 이유가 없는 한 다른 사람의 사용자 페이지 편집을 자제할 것이다.UPNOT, 그렇게 해서.이 경우 Stefan2WP에 따라 사용자 페이지에서 비자유 이미지를 삭제한 것이다.UP#무료 영상(Non-free images)은 WP당 기사 네임스페이스에서만 사용할 수 있으므로(즉, "display").NFCC#9. 앞으로 NFCC#9를 피하기 위해 실제로 NFCC#9를 하기 전에 사용자 페이지나 사용자 하위 페이지에 추가하고자 하는 모든 이미지의 라이선스를 확인하는 것이 좋다.샌드박스, 드래프트 등에 자유롭게 허가된 영상을 추가할 수 있지만, 자유롭지 않은 영상은 추가할 수 없다.이미지가 자유롭게 라이센스되는지 여부를 잘 모를 경우 WP에서 지원을 요청하십시오.MCQ. -- 3월 (토크) 07:34, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

귀환 트롤

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

나를 괴롭히던 트롤이 새로운 IP 31.55.82.48로 6년 만에 돌아왔고, 그 당시 그들이 사용했던 단순 편집 sumamry "rv v"로 나의 편집 내용을 되돌리기 시작했다.이것은 사용자가 의사소통하는 유일한 방법이며, 그들은 계속해서 새로운 IP 주소로 돌아온다.사용자의 이전 IP는 모두 영국으로, ISP "BT"로 해결했다.이번 새 것도 그렇다.이 문제가 오래 전에 시작되었을 때, 나는 그 당시 ISP에 사용자를 보고하려고 했지만, 막다른 골목에 부딪혔다.ISP는 협조적이었지만, 위키피디아로부터 어떻게 얻어야 할지 잘 모르는 "서버 로그"를 제작하라는 지시를 받았기 때문에, 만약 이 사용자가 정말로 그들의 허튼소리로 돌아간다면, 여기 있는 누군가가 이 과정에서 도움을 줄 수 있다면 고맙겠다.그때 내가 가장 멀리 돌아온 것은 위키백과 관료들 중 한 명과 접촉하려고 했던 것이었다.이 모든 것에 비추어 볼 때, 나는 그들에게 인정을 주지 않기 위해 IP의 토크 페이지에 ANI 공지를 남기지 않을 것이다.

다음은 사용자 편집의 예다."rv v"를 검색하여 찾으십시오.IP에 대한 WHOIS 정보를 다시 살펴보면, 두 개의 이름이 눈에 띈다: "preston.dialip@bt.com" "steve.r.wright@bt.com"; 그들은 트롤이 앞서 언급한 기사의 편집에 사용한 모든 IP에 대해 나타나지만, 새로운 IP는 "mark.a.barrett@bt.com"을 언급한다.나는 IP주소에 대한 경험이 별로 없어서 이것이 최신 정보라고 생각하거나 믿을 만한 정보라고 생각할 수 있지만, 나는 너희들에게 일할 것을 줘야겠다고 생각했다.아이크 코렐 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 01:26 (응답)

나는 그 사용자에 대해 네 가지 편집을 보았는데, 모두 건설적인 것이다.특정 인스턴스에 연결할 수 있는가?142.105.159.60 (대화) 01:34, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
아니잖아.그들은 단지 그 당시 내 역사에서 지난 4번의 편집을 맹목적으로 되돌린 것일 뿐이다.동일한 패턴: 위에서 언급한 기사에서와 같이 요약본 "rv v"(반달리즘 반출)을 편집하십시오.여기 6년 이상 지난 IP들 중 하나가 다른 기사에 똑같이 기여했던 많은 이전 IP들 중 하나의 기여 목록을 보여 준다.그들은 내가 언급한 두 가지 기사를 포함하여 "즐거운" 기사 세트를 가지고 있었지만, 결국 그들 자신이 관여하지 않은 다른 기사들에 대한 나의 기여를 공격하기 시작했다.여기 그것에 대한 구체적인 예가 있다.아이크 코렐 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 01:45 (응답)
에릭, 막 뭔가를 하려는데, 'Future Perfect at Sunlay'가 막혔어.사라SV 07:18, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
예측 가능한 경우, 사용자가 새로운 IP 86.187.217.30으로 돌아왔으므로 위의 기술 항목에서 너희들의 도움이 필요할 것이다. 내가 포함시킨 링크와는 별도로 서버 로그에 있는 한 내가 다른 어떤 것을 얻을 수 있을까?또, 실제로 내가 가야 할 관료들인가?저번에도 해봤는데, 내가 찾을 수 있었던 사람이 나에게 말해줬어. 모든 목적과 목적을 위해, 이력 페이지는 서버 로그야. 어떤 경우에는 기사 내역에 대한 링크만 보내면 되는 거야?잘릴 것 같진 않은데에이크코렐 (대화) 15:51, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

다시 반환됨

여기에 더하여, 이 장기적 과정에 관련된 몇 개의 다른 IP는 일반적으로 WP의 모든 편집을 취소하는 데 초점을 맞추었다.WP를 기반으로 편집 중인 VG 회원:VGSCOPE.현재 활성 IP는 86.187.173.156(토크 · 기여)으로, 현재 @Eik Corell의 동일한 편집본을 되돌리고 있다.

지난 주에 관련된 기타 IP: 31.51.232.222(대화 · 기여), 31.55.82.48(대화 · 기여), 86.187.217.30(대화 · 기여)같은 행동의 나이든 IP를 알고 있지만 12월에 활동했다. -- 페렛 (대화) 19:47, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

86.187.173.156 31시간 차단. --말콤xl5 (대화) 20:18, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

개인 공격/반달리즘만 설명

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

위키피디아 페이지 대머라는 새로운 사용자가 기사를 파괴했을 뿐이고, 기사가 원래 있던 살아있는 사람과 원래 사용자를 되돌린 봇을 겨냥한 매우 부적절한 모욕감을 사용했다.RD2에 따라 이 사용자를 차단하고 편집 내용을 볼 수 없도록 하는 방법이 있는가? ([1] [2])사용자의 사용자 이름이 거의 모든 것을 말해준다.다크나이트2149 07:19, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

내가 사용자 변명을 했어편집 내용 자체는 정원 다양성 파괴 행위와 너무 흡사해, 되돌릴 수 없는 IMO 이상의 조치를 요구하는 수준으로 올라가지 않는다. 다른 관리자들은 편집 내용을 더 이상 숨기기 위해 더 강력한 조치를 취하는 것을 환영한다.DMACks (대화) 07:26, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Sri Manakula Vinayagar Medical College and Hospital(SMVMCH)에 대한 알림 제거

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Uservk(대화 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 차단 사용자 · 블록 로그) Sri Manakula Vinayagar Medical College and Hospital(SMVMCH) (대화 기록 링크 감시 로그 편집)이 사용자는 삭제 요청을 받지 않았음에도 불구하고 삭제 통지를 빨리 삭제하지 않고 있으며 문제가 해결되지 않았음에도 불구하고 삭제 통지를 계속 삭제한다.조조 유메루스 (토크, 기여) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 10:09[응답]

해결됨
나는 그 페이지를 지우고 그의 토크 페이지에 경고를 남겼다.만약 그가 비슷한 행동을 계속한다면 나에게 연락해라.반자제니제 (대화) 10:27, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

국가별 상위 국제 협회 축구 골득점자 리스트 관련 전쟁 편집

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

최근 User:와 편집 전쟁을 여러 차례 벌이고 있다.골스갈로어는 축구 선수들의 공식 모자와 골 세기에 관한 국가별 최고 국제 협회 축구 골득점자 리스트를 편집하고 있다.기사의 개정 이력에서 확인할 수 있다.사용자는 FIFA가 공식적으로 인정하거나 계산한 것이 아니라 축구 협회나 각 선수 국가의 연맹이 정한 모자와 골도 목록에 포함시켜야 한다고 말한다.국제축구연맹(FIFA)이 공식 통계로 집계하지는 않았지만 이 통계는 완전히 공식 통계로 집계해야 하는가?내가 해결책을 찾을 수 있도록 도와줘.감사합니다.스와스티크 차크라보르티 (사용자 대화) 10:49, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

페이지에 있는 모든 것은 내가 제공한 믿을 만한 출처와 일치한다.여기서 유일하게 잘못된 것은 사용자:SWASTIK25가 파괴적이야.골즈갈로어(토크) 13:15, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇다면 이것은 콘텐츠 논쟁이지만, 두 분 모두 TP 토의에서 반신반의한 시도를 한 것이다.그건 이제 지치고, 너희 둘은 서로 템플리트에 의존하고 있어.그래서 내가 36시간을 제안하는 거야당신들 둘 다 분쟁을 해결할 방법을 알고 있다는 걸 분명히 보여줬지만...하지 않기로 결정했기 때문에...Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 13:24, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답하라]

Comment 두 편집자는 서로 못지 않게 나쁘다. 역설적으로 OP가 인식하는 것처럼 보인다.그래서 그가 요청한 해결책은 다음과 같다.국제 축구 점수 목록 등 골치 아픈 주제에서 벗어나기 위해 36시간을 권장한다. 2016년Imperatrix Mundi 1월 18일 (UTC) 13:16, 응답하라.

나는 48시간 동안 골즈갈로어를, 일주일 동안 스와스티크 25를 차단했다(이전에도 이 일로 인해 차단된 적이 있기 때문에).자이언트 스노우맨 13:25, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

나체 아티클의 이전 버전 요청

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Jet Naked Airlines는 진짜 항공사다.사람들은 성과 나체를 싫어하기 때문에 몇 가지 버전이 삭제되었다.

위키피디아는 공동의 노력이다.한 명의 편집자가 완전히 기사를 쓰기를 기대할 수는 없다.그것 말고도 물품 소유권일 것이다.

                    • 이전에 삭제된 버전을 제공하거나 대화 페이지에 추가하면 다른 사용자의 이전 노력을 기반으로 할 수 있다.

왜 위키피디아가 당신의 작품을 삭제하려고 할 때 도움을 주는가?그것은 공공 기물 파손과 괴롭힘이다. Tough sale ouch (talk • 기여) 17:27, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

당신은 제트 나체 항공사에 대한 주장을 펴기 위해 위키피디아를 방해하고 있다 - 받아들일 수 없다.그래, 웃겨, 하하하, 그 안에 알몸이라는 단어가 들어있지만, 어쩌면 파괴적인 부인 없이 그냥 기사를 쓰는 게 좋을지도 몰라.체스노우트 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 17:43 [응답]

나는 5개의 참고자료를 추가했는데, 지구상의 수십억 명이 훨씬 넘는다.거친 뱃사공(토크) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 17:45[응답]

삭제된 버전에는 더 많은 정보가 있을 수 있으며, 따라서 이 버전들을 보는 것이 유용하다.거친 뱃사공(토크) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 17:46[응답]

그것은 요점을 벗어난 것이다.너는 맨 위에 고지서를 썼는데, 우리가 여기서 일하는 방식이 아니야.그냥 정상적으로 기사를 쓰세요.롤백을 한 사람이 원래 버전으로 되돌릴 수 있다면 좋을 것 같아.그게 네가 묻고 있는 거야?체스너트 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC) 17:51 [응답]
이 편집자는 아마도 이전에 이 기사를 만든 편집자의 속편일 것이다.나는 여기에 이유를 WP에 열거하지 않을 것이다.BEAND, 그러나 조금만 더 깊이 파고드는 관리자라면 누구나 알아낼 수 있어야 하며, 나는 분명히 SPI나 CU를 추천할 것이다. --Kinu c/ 18:05, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
편집된 내용은 스테파니 보우먼 양말과 같은 지리 위치에서 나오고 있으며, 이전 양말과 같은 과장된 내용("지금 죽여줘" "살생시키지 말아줘")-제즈벨포뇨bons mots 19:35, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답] 등을 포함하고 있다.
양들을 위한 토피노 병원도 병설로 쓰고 있다. 확인된 양말.두 계정을 모두 차단할 겁니다.--제즈벨포뇨bons mots 19:37, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
전형적인 위키백과는 수동적으로 공격적이다.누군가를 강탈하거나 괴롭히고 싶다면, 그들이 양말이라고 주장한다.이전 버전은 2년 전의 버전이다.거친 뱃사공(토크) 2016년 1월 18일(UTC) 19:30[응답]
나는 둘 다 빠른 삭제 요청을 거절했고 CBC 스토리를 바탕으로 기사를 다시 썼다.나는 이전 버전을 보고 (a) 회수 가능한 내용 또는 (b) 귀인 목적을 위해 복구해야 할 이력이 있는지 알아보려고 한다.
그렇긴 하지만, 아직 기사를 싣지 않은 데는 여러 가지 이유가 있을 것이다(WP:투순이는 일단) 하지만 좀 더 상황을 평가해야 할 것 같다.C.Fred (대화) 18:09, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
주석: 2014년까지 삭제된 버전마지막 버전은 기사가 계속 삭제되는 것에 대한 불만이 대부분이었지만, 나는 뉴스로 연결되는 몇 개의 링크를 본다.나는 그것들을 토크로 긁어내겠지만, 역사는 복원될 필요가 없다고 생각한다.C.Fred (대화) 18:11, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

메인 페이지의 주요 편향과 오류

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

메인 페이지에는 뉴스가 실려 있다.한 여성의 사진이 있고 그녀가 타이완의 대통령이라고 말한다.이것은 주요한 에로다.기고사 봐. 그녀는 중화민국(대만)의 대통령이다.큰 이. 위키피디아는 중립적인데, 어느 한쪽으로 치우치지 않는다.대만만을 이용하는 것은 토론의 한 측면에 유리하다.WP가 중립적이라는 큰 논의가 있었다.

시정 필요=대만도 아니고 중국도 아닌 중화민국(대만) 대통령.Person 905 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 19:56 (UTC)[응답]

나는 이 경우에 대만을 이용하기 위한 논의는 할 수 없다고 본다.아마도 그것은 엉성한 실수였을 것이다.Person 905 (대화) 20:06, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 페이지를 반보호할 때가 되었는가?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

미국 포니 클럽 페이지는 반달패들과 호의적이지만 도움이 되지 않는 새로운 사람들에 의해 끊임없이 편집되고 있으며, 종종 계좌를 만든 지 몇 시간 안에 편집된다.[3] [4] [5] 디프에서 볼 수 있듯이 이러한 편집은 불필요한 도움의 시도에서부터 노골적인 파괴 행위까지 다양하다.페이지 이력을 보면 알 수 있듯이 기사는 그런 편집의 오랜 역사를 가지고 있고, 이틀에 한 번씩 계속 되짚어 보는 것은 많은 편집자들의 시간 낭비다(최근의 내용을 30분도 안 되어 되돌렸을 뿐이다).IP와 새로운 편집자로부터 보호해야 할 때인가?화이트 아라비아 필리 (이웃) 21:40, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

위키백과에서 요청하기:페이지 보호 요청.--말콤xl5 (대화) 21:46, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
그 기사는 이제 반투명되었다.White Arabian Filly (Near) 22:14, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

자해 가능성 있는 위협?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

가정에서 사용 가능한 관리자:

IRC에서 볼 수 없는 경우 여기에 게시하십시오.링크: [6] '경고'라고 부르는 것 같다.

위키백과에 따라 게시됨:응답_to_hreats_of_harm#Contact_administrators.2016년 1월 17일(UTC) 응원단 18장 19절대 18Imperatrix Mundi:19

그것에 대해. WMF Mike V Talk 18:28, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[답장]
방금 WMF에게도 이메일을 보냈는데, 너의 게시물을 못 봤어.베스넛 (대화) 2016년 1월 17일 18:29 (UTC)[응답]
둘 다 고마워.이런 상황에서는 요리사가 너무 적은 것보다 너무 많은 요리사가 더 낫다.건배! 2016년 1월 17일(UTC) 18Imperatrix Mundi:35[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

대화 시 장기 저주파 블랭킹:페리고등학교.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2015년 7월 이후 IP는 해당 Talk 페이지에서 지속적으로 유효한 코멘트를 삭제했다.오늘날의 반복적인 블랭킹으로 인해 오늘날 관련 IP에 31시간 블록(현재 이미 도전된 [7]시간 블록, 반달리즘[8])이 발생했다.

기사토크 페이지 히스토리[9]는 2015년 7월 이후 지금까지 3주 내외로 해당 페이지에 대한 (유일한) 코멘트를 지속적으로 공백으로 표시한다.오늘날, 1월 17일, 관련 IP는 더 끈질기고 여러 번 연속으로 공백이 되었고, 심지어 그의 편집 요약에서 누군가의 사용자 페이지[10]에서 자신의 (nazi) 코멘트를 조작한 것에 대해 다른 사람들을 비난하기도 했다.

제 질문은, 이 목록에 있는 모든 IP가 SP로 간주될 것인가 입니다.그리고, 이 페이지는 보통 짧은 시간 동안만 반보호되어 있는 토크 페이지와 관련이 있기 때문에, 나는 (기사의 편집 히스토리를 볼 때) 별로 도움이 되지 않을 것 같은 예감이 들기 때문에, 어떻게 이 공백으로부터 보호될 수 있을까?건배, 말 없는 우두머리(토크) 2016년 1월 17일(UTC) 18:26.[답답하다]

특이한 경우, 이것은 토크 페이지 파괴 행위일 경우, 나는 토크 페이지의 반보호를 더 오랫동안 요청할 것을 권고하고 싶다.로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC) 18:42 (대화)[응답]
IP는 상당히 안정되는 경향이 있는데, 한 두 번 반복해서 한 번에 많은 IP가 아니다.그리고 그들은 일반적으로 다른 여러 페이지에도 나쁜 편집을 한다.나는 IP가 뜨면 더 긴 블록을 주는 것에 익숙해졌다.DMACKs (대화) 21:12, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 3일 동안 그 토크 페이지를 반비례했다.WP에서 더 긴 보호를 주장할 수 있다.RPP. 그들이 같은 마을에서 유래한 다른 IP들을 보면 정말 알 수 있다.회수한 현재의 IP계정은 6개월의 블록이 주어졌다.리즈Read! Talk! 22:19, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
왜 3일밖에 안 남았어?우리는 대화 페이지에 훨씬 더 긴 반보호를 배치해야 한다.분명한 것은, 이 토크 페이지는 단지 IP의 공공 기물 파손에 이용되고 있다는 것이다.고기잡이 (대화) 2016년 1월 18일 19:18 (UTC)[응답]
나는 반보호가 적어도 6개월에서 1년 정도는 되어야 한다는 것에 동의한다.TP가 반감되면 IP가 기사 자체를 개선하는 것을 막을 수 없다.만약 이 나사산을 읽는 어떤 관리자도 세미 길이를 증가시키지 않는다면, 누군가가 WP에 요청서를 제출해야 한다.RFPP(여기 ANI에 있는 것이 아니라 실제로 파일화되었어야 하는 곳).RFP에서 6개월 동안 25번 발생했으므로 시간이 길어야 한다는 점을 명확히 한다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 07:00, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 보호장치를 6mos로 올렸다.역사는 그것을 보증한다.향후 WP에 이러한 요청을 게시하십시오.앞에서 설명한 바와 같이 RFPP.이유에는 별도의 공지사항 게시판이 있다(이 페이지의 트래픽이 매우 높기 때문에 요청이 실제로 알려지도록 하는 것이 주요 사항이다).····日本語········································································
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

주보는 다른 편집자들을 괴롭히고 인신공격을 하고 있다.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

주보 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 페이지 이동 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)

단일 목적의 계정인 주보는 주로 토크에서 다른 편집자들을 괴롭히고 인신공격하고 있다.이슬람 테러 공격 목록사용자 대화 내용:Bastun사용자 대화:말릭 샤바즈.한 달 넘게 계속되어 왔으니, 나는 그들이 막히는 것을 보고 싶다.

최근 몇 가지 차이점:

수십 가지 더 자세히 알아보려면 Special:기부금/주보.말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 00:21, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

그런데 주보는 그들의 인신공격에 대해 거듭 경고를 받았다.여기 몇 가지 예가 있다.
그리고 그것들 조차도 그들의 토크 페이지에서 나온 것이다.Talk에는 더 많은 것들이 있다.이슬람 테러 공격 목록말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 00:44, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
주보는 분명히 인신공격에 가담하고 있지만 편집자는 단발성 계정은 어떤가.575건의 편집 중 91건은 이슬람 테러 공격 리스트, 28건은 토크에서 편집했다.이슬람 테러 공격 목록그는 독일로의 이민주요 가전제품 제조사 리스트를 광범위하게 편집했다.마블 히어로 (토크) 2016년 1월 19일 01:30 (UTC)[응답]
주보는 SPA이다. 왜냐하면 (a) 202개의 메인 스페이스 편집 중 91개가 이슬람 테러 공격 목록이었기 때문이다.그들은 단지 41개의 독일 이민 (그들의 두 번째로 인기 있는 기사), 단지 34개의 주요 가전 제품 제조사 리스트 (그들의 세 번째로 인기 있는 기사), 그리고 다른 어떤 기사에도 10개 이하의 편집을 했다.주보가 편집한 40페이지 중 34페이지가 Talk에 갔다.이슬람 테러 공격 목록여기 봐.그것이 그들을 단일 목적의 계좌로 만드는 것이다.말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 2016년 1월 19일(UTC) 01:59[응답]
그런데 주보의 575 편집에는 286 대 en이 포함되어 있다.위키와 289번 드위키.여기 봐.나는 그들의 행동에 대해 아무것도 모른다.wiki; 오직 en에 대한 그의 행동.위키는 여기서 관련이 있다.말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 2016년 1월 19일 02:30 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그들의 독일 이민과 이슬람 테러 공격 리스트에 대한 편집이 어떤 공통점을 공유할 수 있기를 기대한다.자원봉사 마렉 (대화) 02:47, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자에 대한 차단 요청:레이와스92

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:Reywas92는 먼저 Supermajority 페이지에서 (MOS:QUOTMARTS에 따르면) "2분의 1"의 인용 부호를 삭제했지만, 설명으로 ""("(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Supermajority&oldid=700554487 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Supermajority&oldid=700554487 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Supermajority&oldid=700554487"만 사용하여 나를 다음과 같이 만들었다.Goodone121, 그가 교란적으로 편집하고 있다고 믿어서, 나는 그의 토크 페이지에 "uw-discontraction2" 템플릿으로 태그를 붙였다.내가 그렇게 한 후, 그는 좋은 편집을 했고, 나는 그에게 감사했다. 그러나 내가 나의 감시목록에 돌아갔을 때, 나는 그가 내 코멘트를 제거했다는 것을 알았다. 왜냐하면 그는 그의 정규적인 지위 때문에, 분명히 그것이 정책에 반한다는 을 알고 있었기 때문이다.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700563659)과 "uw-tpv3" 템플릿(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700563842 )을 추가했다.그 후 그는 나의 토크페이지로 가서 회유적인 어투(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Goodone121&oldid=700564445)를 쳤는데, 내가 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Goodone121&oldid=700564971)라고 답했지만, 내 게시물을 삭제하는 행동을 계속하였다.그래서 나는 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700564784)으로 되돌아갔고 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700565066 ) 마지막 시간에 "uw-tpv4"(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700565135)를 사용하여 그에게 경고했다.그는 내 talkpage에 갔을 때, 아직 다시,(내 발언 삭제할 진행하고 이 시간, 그는"행운을 빌어 나를 막고!", 내 논평(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Goodone121&oldid=700565408)"[다]정당한 적이 없"말, 조롱했다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&oldid=700565399).는 마침내 그가 내 코멘트를 삭제한 것을 되돌렸다.

오 마이 갓 이건 정말 웃겨.수우야...내 편집이 실제로 중단되지 않았다는 것을 알고 나서 첫 번째 uw-filency 템플릿을 직접 제거하지 않으셨습니까?내 편집 요약이 너에게 도움이 되지 않아서 미안해, 하지만 너는 불필요한 문장 부호를 없애는 것만으로는 방해가 되지 않는다는 것을 깨달았어야 했어.아니, 그 태그들은 결코 합법적이지 않았어. 내가 그 기사를 파괴적으로 편집한 적이 없었으니까.특히 왜 거기에 넣었느냐고 스스로 토크를 하러 왔을 때, 거짓 태그를 지우는 것은 그다지 부적절한 일이 아니었다.애초에 왜 날 태그했는가에 대한 논의를 거부했니?나처럼 대화에 참여하기보다는 어떤 이유에서인지 단골들을 템플리트로 만드는 것이 더 나을 거라고 생각하셨죠.내 자신의 토크 페이지에서 허위 고발 템플릿을 삭제하는 것은 방해가 되지 않으며, 확실히 차단할 수 없다.내가 시작한 논의에 응하지 않고 반복적으로 그들을 거기에 두는 것은 파괴적이다.이제 내 시간을 낭비하지 마.레이와스92Talk 08:49, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 참고 사항: WP별:UP#CMT는 사용자가 차단/차단 해제 또는 삭제 태그(MfD, 신속 등)가 아닌 한 사용자 페이지에서 콘텐츠를 제거할 수 있다.다른 모든 것은 공정한 게임이고 템플릿의 제거는 태그 자체에 대한 인식으로 자주 보여진다.그러나 이 경우 해당 태그의 초기 편집이 WP였기 때문에 태그가 보증되거나 적용되지 않았다.GOODFAIST는 다소 짧은 편집 요약으로 인해 도움이 되지 않는 것으로 잘못 해석되었다.레이워스가 자신의 토크 페이지를 편집한 다른 편집은 그가 자신의 페이지에서 내용을 삭제할 수 있는 권리를 충분히 가지고 있었기 때문에 더 이상의 태그 지정을 정당화하지 못했다.그는 당신의 토크 페이지에 약간 날카로웠지만, 이것은 그가 그것을 삭제한 후 당신이 반복적으로 그의 페이지의 내용을 바꾼 후였다 - 그리고 그의 토크 페이지에 실제로 토론을 시작하지 않았다.내가 알기로는 여기서 취해야 할 조치는 없다.초기 편집은 중단되지 않았고, 사용자 페이지에서 내용을 삭제한 것도 아니었다.토쿄걸79 ( (◕‿◕。) 09:26, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
차단 통지는 삭제할 수 있다.차단 해제 요청을 거절하지 않은 것뿐입니다.오직 죽음에서만 의무종료 (대화) 10:07, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 여기서 하는 게 제일 좋을 것 같아. 악수하고 걸어가는 게 좋을 것 같아.이면에 실제 악의가 있는 것은 아닌 듯 한데, 양쪽의 좌절에 힘입어 의도치 않게 정책을 잘못 해석한 데 이은 솔직한 실수일 뿐이다.이런 상황에서 가장 좋은 것은 단지 미래에 더 명확해지고 더 많은 의사소통을 하려고 노력하는 것, 특히 누군가가 정책에 반한다고 생각한다면 더욱 그렇다.템플릿은 간단하고 항상 완벽하게 설명할 수 없기 때문에, 이런 오해를 풀려면 좋은 의사소통이 중요하다.나의 유일한 조언은 사용자들의 토크 페이지에서 먼저 당신의 초기 태그에 대한 이유를 설명하고 만약 그들이 다른 실수를 한다고 생각한다면, 그들이 왜 그렇게 하는지 물어보는 것이다.그것은 그들이 무엇을 하고 있는지 깨닫지 못하거나 혹은 여러분이 실수를 하고 있을지도 모른다는 것일 수도 있다.나는 이 일을 해왔기 때문에 좋은 의사소통이 매우 중요하다.토쿄걸79 (。◕‿◕。) 09:35, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

트롤이든 무능력하든, 나는 위키힐123 사용자들을 위한 변명을 제안한다.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

유저 위키힐123(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 이용자 · 블록 로그)에 대해 무기한 블록을 제안한다.만약 그들이 트롤/밴드가 아니라면, 그들은 위키피디아를 편집하는 것이 무능하다.그들은 제공된 출처에 의해 뒷받침되지 않는 편집을 계속한다.이를 논의하려는 시도는 편집자체에 나타난 숙련도와 일치하지 않는 모호하고 특이하게 무능한 언어, 즉 벙어리 플레이와 같은 언어와 만난다.난 셰나니건들을 부른다.

증거를 위해, 나는 그들의 토크 페이지를 가리키는데, 특히 내가 최근에 거기서 한 기고문을 가리킨다.나의 논평은 제대로 출처가 정해지지 않은 많은 주장들에 초점을 맞추고 있지만, 다른 사람들의 우려는 백과사전을 짓는데 도움이 되지 않거나 혹은 단순히 여기에 있지 않은 편집자의 사진을 둥글게 그렸다.윌런던 (대화) 15:28, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 내가 마빈 게이 경의 매장지에 대한 참조를 확인해 봤는데, 맞아, 사용자가 쓴 문장을 뒷받침하지 않았어.하지만, 구글을 빠르게 검색한 후에 나는 그 정보가 사실 정확하다는 것을 깨달았다. 그 일에 대한 너의 반전을 취소하고 적절한 참조를 추가했다. 어쩌면 무한정 금지시키는 대신에 위키힐123에게 설명하는 것과 결합하여, 그것이 더 나은 행동 방침이 될 수도 있지 않을까?내 생각에, 무분별한 금지는 아마도 공공 기물 파손, 약탈, 그리고/또는 괴롭힘의 매우 극단적인 경우에 대해 유보되어야 할 것이다.홀워드의 고스트 16:58, 2016년(My talkpage) 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
그들은 그렇게 수백 개의 편집을 했고, 다른 편집자들이 그들을 위해 레그워크를 하기를 기대하는 것은 합리적이지 않다.WP:Burden(In-WP 정책의 일부인 WP:Verifyability, 단순한 가이드라인이 아닌 검증가능성)도 기사에 자료를 추가하는 사람이 그것에 대해 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 제공하는 것에 달려 있다고 명시적으로 밝히고 있다.토마스W talk 17:05, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답하라]
나는 솔직히 내가 여기서 잘못 받아들일 수도 있다는 것을 인정한다.그러나, 내가 보기에, 편집(또는 그들 대다수의 편집)이 유용하지만 부적절하게 소싱된다면, 계정을 만드는 것을 무한정 금지하는 것은 잘못된 방법이다.홀워드의 고스트(My talkpage) 17:09, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
이는 "잘 소싱된" 것이 아니며, 정반대인 Findagrave는 사용자가 생성한 웹사이트여서 참조용으로 사용할 수 없다(제언된 읽기: WP:신뢰할 수 있는 출처와 신뢰할 수 있는 출처 안내판 및 여기 WP에서:ANI, 모두 같은 발견으로 끝났고, Findagrave는 믿을 수 없다는 것을...)토마스W talk 17:25, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 그럼 사과드리죠, 그럼.나는 이 편집자(IMO, 결국 훌륭한 편집자가 될 수 있는 사람)가 무기한 금지될 자격이 있는지 여부에 대해 나머지 사람들에게 미루겠다.홀워드의 유령 2016년 1월 19일 17(My talkpage):30 (UTC)[응답]
  • 6개 더 편집한 걸 봤는데 무능하다고 하더군무한정 차단하지는 않겠지만, 이 편집자는 우리가 "백과사전"이라고 말할 때, 진심이라는 것을 이해할 필요가 있다.드레이미스 (토크) 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC) 17:39 (응답)
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:렘나미너와 남극대륙

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 사용자는 남극의 작은 특징에 대해 많은 기사를 만들고 있다.나는 그의 토크 페이지에 AfD 과정을 틀어막고 궁극적으로 WP에 따라 삭제될 기사를 작성하기 보다는 다음과 같은 내용의 공지를 남겼다.GEOLAND는 대신 제안된 새로운 기사에 대한 자신의 아이디어를 기존 기사와 통합함으로써 다른 단조로운 기사들을 개선해야 한다.그는 아무런 반응도 하지 않고 속도를 줄이지도 않았다.제발 도와주세요.Jm (토크 기여) 2016년 1월 19일 19:51 (UTC)[응답]

친애하는 Jsharpminor에게, 당신은 내 기사를 대량으로 지명하고 AfD 과정을 엉망으로 만든 지 10분도 안 되어 나를 여기로 데려왔다.당신이 내 사용자 페이지에 답변하기를 기다리지 않았으므로(그리고 그 페이지에도 당신의 템플릿이 가득 찼기 때문에), 나는 여기서 대답할 것이다.나는 또한 내가 이 대답을 준비하는 동안 당신이 계속해서 페이지를 지명한다는 것에 주목한다. 그것은 나에게 건설적인 인상을 주지 않는다.
나는 WP에서 지역사회의 일치에 따라 남극의 지리적 특징에 관한 많은 누락된 기사를 만들고 있다.위키프로젝트 백과사전 기사 누락/남극 및 해당 대화 페이지위키피디아의 5대 기둥에 따르면, 백과사전은 또한 관보로서 기능하고 있기 때문에, 위키피디아의 GNG(General Notability Guideline)를 충족하는 지리적 특징들이 주목할 만한 것으로 추정되지만, 보장되지는 않는다.특히 남극과 같은 곳에서 우리는 커버리지가 부족하며, 오랫동안의 컨센서스는 USGS 관보를 출발점으로 하여 기사 스텁을 만드는 것이다.대부분의 새로운 페이지 패트롤러들은 이 새로운 스터브들을 검토했지만 아무런 문제도 발견하지 못했다.나는 네가 이것들 중 일부를 다른 기사로 합병을 원한다는 것을 이해한다. - 제발 대화 페이지에 합병을 제안해줘, AfD는 그럴 곳이 아니야.그리고 삭제 요청을 그룹화하여 중앙집중식 토론이 이루어질 수 있도록 부탁드려도 좋겠읍니다. --감사합니다, 렘나미너 (대화)20:25, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
@Lemnaminor:당신이 여기에 응답하고 있으니, 만약 그렇다면 나는 AN/I에서 이 요청을 삭제해도 좋다.
어쨌든, 그래, 네가 제안하는 건 좋은 것 같아.이 토론을 어디로 옮겨야 할까?Jm (토크 기여) 20:33, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
한 가지 더, WP를 검토해보셨습니까?GEOLAND?나는 네가 이 내용을 백과사전에 추가하는 것에 반대하지 않는다; 네 말이 맞아, 남극에 대한 우리의 보도는 다소 부족하다.또한 AfD가 그것에 가장 적합한 장소가 아닐 수도 있다는 네 말이 맞아. 그리고 그것이 비록 하나의 큰 집단적인 요청이 나의 개인적인 요청보다 더 나을 수도 있어.하지만, 당신은 내가 첫 페이지를 19:23에 지명했고, 당신은 19:45까지 스텁들을 4개 더 만들었다는 것을 주목해야 한다.19시 51분에야 ANI 보고서를 만들었어그래서, 아니, 난 내가 여기 온 것이 완전히 근거 없는 것이라는 것에 동의하지 않아.Jm(토크 기여) 2016년 1월 19일(UTC) 20:33[응답]
Jsharpminor, 나는 위키백과 대상인 남극대륙의 USGS 남극 게이터와 누락된 기사/남극성 기사들에 대한 공신력 지침과 기존의 지역사회 일치에 대해 잘 알고 있다.또한 WP에 따라 다음 사항에 유의하십시오.MAPOUTENS: "호수, 강, 산, 산악 패스 등 지도에 등장하는 주요 지리적 특징들은 일반적으로 AfD에서 살아남는다."그것은 또한 내 기사를 삭제 표시하지 않고 검토한 많은 새로운 페이지 등록자들에게 인정된다.사실 지금까지 그렇게 한 것은 너뿐이야.마지막으로, 여러분은 삭제하기 위해 기사를 지명하기 전에 실제로 공신력을 확인하는 것이 좋을 것이다: 예를 들어 맥머도 드라이 밸리의 초신성 호수는 과학 문헌에 광범위하게 설명되어 있다.그러나 우리는 그들에 대한 좋은 취재가 부족하다.아직 스텁을 확장할 시간이 없었지만, 위키백과 기사가 스텁으로 시작되어 점차 확대되는 것은 오래 전부터 받아들여져 왔다.
나는 당신이 병합하고 싶은 기사들의 지명을 철회하고, 당신이 실제로 삭제하기를 원하는 기사들을 AfD에서 집중적인 토론을 할 수 있도록 그룹화하고, 당신이 독자적으로 기사를 쓸 가치가 없다고 생각하는 기사들에 대해 합병을 제안할 것을 제안한다.일반적으로 남극 대륙 스터브 창조를 논하기에 적절한 장소는 위키피디아 대상 남극 또는 누락된 기사/남극이다.감사합니다,--렘나미너 (대화) 21:27, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

RT News 기사에 대한 관리 감독 요청 - 예의를 되찾아야 한다(팝콘을 좀 먹고 토크 페이지에서 한 잔만 마셔도 된다).

WP의 단계를 따르십시오.WP 사용을 포함한 분쟁:서드옵시온 옵션.이것은 정말 콘텐츠 논쟁으로 귀결되는 것이 아니다.그리고 모두들 물러나서 몇 번 심호흡을 하고 마음을 진정시켜야 한다.····日本語 · 日本語 · 日本語 · Nihonjoe · Japan 가입! 23:51, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

RT에 관한 기사는 최근에 잠겨 현재 다소 논쟁의 여지가 있는 이슈로 논의되고 있으며, RT가 선전에 해당하는지 아닌지를 둘러싸고 많은 적대감이 사방으로 흩날리고 있다. 나는 이 결론에 도달하기 위해 자료를 계량화한 학문적 연구나 과학적인 자료는 없다고 말하는 반면, 다른 사람들은 정치와 텀블을 생각한다.lr는 유효한 출처를 구성한다.

심지어 내가 "법적 위협"으로 잘못 보도된 결과도 있어, 긴장감은 너무 높아.

기사 보호가 1월 19일로 만료될 때쯤에는 상황이 나아질 것 같지 않으니, 토크 페이지의 상황을 분산시키기 위해 어떤 행정관이 들르기를 부탁한다.WP의 부족에 대한 많은 논쟁이 있을 뿐이다.GF(나는 이 기사에 대한 동료 편집자들 사이에서도 불성실한 믿음과 질적, 과학적 또는 학문적 출처의 필요성에 대해 인정해야 한다.)는 극론적인 의견 분석이 계속 유효한 출처로 인용되기 때문에, 상호간의 의견 불일치가 높은 긴장을 초래하고 있다.

나 또한 틀릴 수 있다.출처가 유효하지 않고, 무엇이 정확한 출처를 구성하는지 알아야 한다는 것에 대해 내가 틀릴 수 있다.

어느 쪽이든, 나는 공식적으로 그곳의 토크 페이지는 정말 엉망진창이 되었기 때문에 도움을 요청한다.솔렌타90 (대화) 07:55, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 공손함이 문제가 아니다.위키피디아와 관련된 재량적 제재에 대해 경고받으셨더군요:중재/동유럽 요청 (EdJohnston, 2014년 3월 31일)나는 당신이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 받아들이지 않고 그러한 출처가 관련 주제(예를 들어 이 출처)를 논의했다는 것을 부인하는 데 있어서 편집자들이 기대한 기준치 이하로 떨어졌다고 생각한다. 그리고 나는 6개월 동안 이 기사와 그 토론 페이지에서 당신을 금지할 것이다.드레이미스 (토크) 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC) 17:17[응답]
  • 방금 그 토크 페이지의 마지막 부분을 읽었어.나는 Drmies의 의견에 동의하며, 당신이 그 기사에서 금지된 주제를 끝내기 전에 그 기사에서 잠시 휴식을 취하라고 제안한다.남들이 하는 말을 무시하고 고집으로 자기 주장을 관철하려는 것 같다.누군가가 내용 토론보다 앞서려고 한 것은 처음이 아니다. 그것은 결코 좋게 끝나지 않는다.HighInBC 17:46, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

만약 그것이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처라면(연구, 인용문, 또는 자신의 주장을 뒷받침할 출처가 없음에도 불구하고, RT를 '프로파간다 방송국'이라고 지나가는 말로 언급하면서), 위키피디아가 느린 죽음을 맞이하고 있는 것은 당연하다.

지난 4년 동안 많은 페이지를 편집했고, 4년 동안 많은 기여를 했으며, 이것이 바로 WP의 편집자들로부터 영감을 받은 일종의 지나친 열성적인 중재인 만큼, 내 생각에 이것은 아마도 나의 편집일 것이다.Jimbo Wales가 경고철도 도끼.이것은 끔찍한 출처에 대해 완고한 특정 사용자에 의한 편집을 멈추게 하기 위한 시도였다. (아니, 내가 아니라, 나는 단지 과학적인 연구나 대학 연구가 전부였으면 한다--그것이 그렇게 찾기 어려운가?)왜 데일리 비스트가 뉴스 기구를 구성하는 것에 대한 좋은 정보원이 되는가? 비스듬한 장편잡지야. 왜 텀블러 페이지가 출처 인용에 괜찮을까?

무례하게 굴려는 게 아니라, 나를 금지시킨 행정관이 실제로 토크 페이지에서 일어난 대화 전체를 다 읽었을까.나는 예의범절을 지키려고 노력하고 있었다.

하지만 아아, 이제 위키피디아에서는 그 의견이 "사실"로 넘어간다는 것을 알게 되었고, 나는 더 이상 그 의견에 관여하지 않을 것이다.내게서 더 이상의 기여는 없다, (특히 일본 역사에서 필요할 것 같은 곳에서) 솔렌타90(토크) 19:27, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 그 중재가 주어지는 동안 동유럽에 관한 기사를 편집하지 않았다.내가 거의 2년 동안 러시아나 동유럽과 관련된 기사를 대대적으로 편집하지 않은 것을 보면 분명 이것은 실수일 것이다.그런 것이 보이는 상황에서, 나는 이것이 처벌이 좀 가혹하다고 생각한다(특히 내가 항상 내 토크 페이지에 있는 것을 읽지 않는 것을 고려한다면, 나는 유일한 편집자가 아니다), 특히 내가 RT에 관한 적절한 출처를 찾으려고 하는 것에 비추어, 그리고 심지어 다른 관리자들에게 그 과정을 도와달라고 부탁하는 것에 비추어 볼 때 말이다.솔렌타90 (대화) 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC) 19:21[응답]

마지막으로, 내가 법적인 위협을 가했다는 이유로 위키백과에서 나를 완전히 금지시키려는 불쌍한 시도와 지금 이 사이에, 나를 금지한 행정관은 기본적으로 그들이 원하는 것을 그들의 손에 먹였다; RT 뉴스 토크 페이지:

:주제에 대해 잘 모르니 아무 말도 하지 않겠다. 나는 단지 내가 적대적인 수사(여기서 당신이 한 블록을 얻었을 때가 꽤 되었다고 생각한다)와 WP: ROADE: 대학 연구과학 출처에 대한 매우 합리적인 요청을 하는 편집자 대해 충격을 받았다고 말하고 싶다. Examen Intelligentia (대화) 12:42, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

당신은 이것이 WP의 시도라고 생각하지 않을 것이다.철도청, 그래줄래?난 분명 그럴 것이다.솔렌타90 (대화) 2016년 1월 19일 19:35 (UTC)[응답]

  • @Solntsa90.이 게시판에 대한 당신의 모든 주장은 사실적으로 틀렸다.
  1. 2015년 동유럽 관련 기사들을 많이 편집하셨고, 논란이 많은 주제들 ([16], [17], [18] 등)
  2. 다른 사용자가 실제로 해당 주제를 제공할 때 해당 주제에 대한 "학술적" 자료를 제공하지 않았음을 알 수 있다(예: 위의 Drmies와 기사 토크 페이지의 다른 사람에 의한 예).
  3. 다른 사용자에 대해 의견을 개진하고, 거의 "법적 위협"으로 해석될 수 있는 의견을 개진(위 토론 참조)한 후, WP에서 토론을 진행한 사람은 바로 너였다.TE 매너.따라서 위키백과:POV 철도는 실제로 당신에게 적용된다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 22:04, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 만약 Solntsa90이 6개월 동안 기사에서 주제가 금지된다면, 나는 그 특권도 금지될 것을 요청한다.실로 나는 대담하게도 갈라시와 트라플딘번리에게 경종을 울리지 않는 기사(솔렌타90이 만든 기사와는 다른 것)를 편집하여 그들이 그것을 되돌릴 수 있게 했다.볼룬터 마렉도 이 일이 있은 후 나의 편집 이력을 살펴본 후, 내가 새로 제정된 폴란드 법안에 대해 유럽 연합과 수많은 인권 단체들의 우려에 대해 쓴 편집본을 발견했기 때문에, 그것은 또한 볼룬터 마렉을 기쁘게 하지 못했다.그는 나에게 경고하지 않고 내 편집본을 삭제하기 시작했고, 내가 토크 페이지에서 논의하자고 주장했으므로, 그는 내가 제시하는 모든 출처를 신뢰할 수 없는 것으로 치부한다(노르웨이 인권기구 "인권단체"인 "인권단체" 또는 무관한 것( AP가 보도한 레흐 웨일스의 선언).AP, 더 가디언, 인권 주택 등은 다른 기사에 대해 신뢰할 수 없다고 일축하면서 어떤 출처를 한 기사에 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 받아들이는 태도 이면의 논리를 나는 보지 못한다.따라서 내가 자원봉사 마렉과 같은 인플루언서 편집자에 대항하여 솔렌타90과 같은 범죄를 저질렀다고 확신하고, 나도 같은 처벌을 받아야 한다.그래서 그 질서가 위키피디아에서 지배할 수도 있다.괴둘 (대화) 00:46, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:Robsinden

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕, 너희들과 상의하고 싶은 고민이 있어.제목에 언급된 사용자는 Devenassi에서 지속적으로 정보를 편집했다. 다음 수업은 시즌 1 페이지야.나는 그에게 노트 섹션에 멈춰달라고 부탁했고 관리자와 접촉하는 결과를 초래하고 싶지 않았지만 그는 그러지 않았다.넥스트 클래스의 경우 메인 방송사는 넷플릭스(Netflix)이며, 프로그램의 제작자이기도 하다.그들이 없다면, 쇼는 없을 것이다.이것은 이 쇼의 배후에 있는 사람들에 의해 여러 번 언급되어 왔고 그것은 넷플릭스 오리지널 프로그램으로 등록되어 있다.어떤 이유에서인지 그는 그것이 아니라고 믿기 때문에 계속해서 페이지에서 카테고리를 삭제한다.응, 캐나다에서 촬영되고 패밀리에서도 방송되지만, 알려진 대로 넷플릭스가 주요 방송사야.넷플릭스와 패밀리의 크레딧에 이 점을 확실히 적어두었답니다.먼저 방송했지만 '원조 방송인'은 아니다.디벨라시: 넥스트 제너레이션 페이지가 만들어졌는데, 우리는 캐나다 방송사와 미국 방송사 모두를 인용했다. 왜냐하면 둘 다 이 쇼에 대해 지배하고 있었기 때문이다.우리는 또한 계절에 따라 두 항공편을 모두 열거했다.그는 또한 넥스트 클래스의 시즌 1 페이지에서 그것을 삭제했다.나는 그가 왜 계속 그렇게 하는지 모르지만 나는 그것을 멈추기를 원한다.나는 이것에 대해 논의하기 위해 이 페이지로 안내되었고 나는 빠른 결정을 희망한다.감사합니다.조시 (뉴 호라이즌 웨이브 유) 20:34, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

토크에서 논의될 내용 참조:List_of_original_programs_distributed_by_Netflix#Degrassi:_다음_클래스.User_talk에 정책 인용문이 있음:Robsinden#Broadcaster_for_Class 유통 또는 생산 거래 관련.여기에서는 어떤 행동의 염려가 없는 것 같다.--리키81682(토크) 22:03, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

긴급 범위 블록 및 페이지 보호 필요

불행히도 우리의 '옛 친구'인 UAE의 아픈 IP 트롤 작전이 한 달 동안 광범위한 장애를 일으켰고 약 5만 개의 원거리 블록 IP가 돌아왔다.여느 때처럼 그는 기독교 [19], [20], [21], 나 자신 [22], 이슬람 [23], [24], [25]에 관한 기사를 대상으로 한다.11월에 너무 잘 배웠듯이, 이 극도로 끈질긴 트롤에 대해 효과가 있는 유일한 것은 광범위한 범위 블록과 그의 목표물에 대한 일시적인 보호뿐이다.그래서 나는 적절한 IP 범위에 대한 범위 블록과 다음 기사의 페이지 보호를 제안한다.당연히 확장될 것이다; 11월에 같은 트롤이 새로운 페이지로 옮겨갔지만 광범위한 보호와 결합된 광범위한 블록이 결국 그를 제거했지만, 분명히 블록은 만료되었다.

제피즈 (대화) 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC) 12시 48분 [응답]

기록상으로는 전혀 차단된 적이 없다.--31.219.124.159 (대화) 12:51, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
지금 가지고 있다.이전 논의와 연관성이 있는가? -- zzuzz(talk) 12:52, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
내 페이지의 내력과 데카우사의 페이지는 11월에 이 트롤이 어떻게 우리를 계속해서 괴롭혔는지를 보여주는데, 종종 하루에 10개까지 다른 IP를 가지고 있고, 똑같은 모욕감을 사용하기도 한다.11월 제피즈(토크) 12시 55분 (UTC) 2016년 1월 17일 (회신)에서 링크를 확인하겠다.
알제리 모스크에서 카피비오 후보작을 계속 되짚어온 여러 UAE IP들과 같은 것인지 궁금하다. - 하이퍼가루다 (토크) 12:59, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
의심의 여지없이, 두 사람 모두 그렇다.내가 직접 176.204.186.17(토크 · 기여 · 블록 로그)으로 차단한 적이 있다.현재로서는 어느 범위가 적당한지 판단만 하면 될 것 같아. --zzuzz 13:16, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
이슬람 테러 리스트는 24일까지 전면 보호된다.사도 바울에게 반보호(1년)를 더했다.사용자:제피즈는 이미 무한정 반(半)이다.대화 편집:기독교와 대화:예수는 31.219.96.0/19의 범위 블록으로 처리될 것이며, 최소한의 부수적 피해만 있어도 우리가 할 수 있다.이전의 ANI와 위의 정보를 보면, 이번에는 세 가지 범위가 있다.나는 이 세 가지 범위의 부수적 피해에 대해 12월 초로 다시 확인했는데, 나는 한 달 동안 범위를 차단했다.
  • 31.219.96.0/19 (65536 IP와 비교) - 부수적 손상이 거의 없음
  • 176.204.0.0/16 (6536 IP) - 이번에는 그 범위를 사용하는 사람이 더 많을 것으로 보이지만, 거기서 나오는 유용한 작업은 거의 없다.
  • 2.48.0.0/16 (6536 IP) - 몇 가지 유용한 편집 사항이지만 대부분 그렇지 않다.다이애나 (대화) 14:47, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

엔위키의 메시나 삭푸펫츠

메시나는 enwiki[27]에서 단 한 번만 편집했지만, enwiki에서는 확실히 enwiki에 콘센트푸펫을 사용했다.나는 엔위키에 얼마나 많은 양말이 사용되었는지 모른다. 이들 중 대부분은 삭제된 기사나 드워키에 대한 삭제 논의 기사나 드워키에 관한 오래된 버전과 초안들이 드워키에 관한 블록에서 작업된 것을 숨기기 위해 사용됐다.나는 엔위키에서 몇몇 양말을 확인했는데, 오늘날에는 차단되지 않았다. 이것은 이 계정을 포함한다.

  1. 사용자:Messina111
  2. 사용자:30ax.93
  3. 사용자:Abwe
  4. 사용자:Loew17
  5. 사용자:Loew14
  6. 사용자:Loew13
  7. 사용자:Loew26
  8. 사용자:미켈 브래들리

이러한 설명은 확실히 합리적인 의심을 넘어서는 메시나 삭푸펫이다.

메시나 양말의 기사 식별 방법?이는 자주 발생하는 문제다.

  • 초안은 한 번에 두 개 이상의 주제를 포함할 수 있으며, 때로는 함께 보관된 많은 기사의 모음이기도 하다.
  • 그 페이지의 주제는 버전들 사이에 매우 다른 것으로 즉시 바뀔 수 있다.
  • 제목이 페이지 내용과 일치하지 않을 수 있음
  • 많은 복사 붙여넣기 작업
  • 파일이 커먼즈에서 삭제되었기 때문에 많은 사진, 종종 빨간색 링크.
  • 메시나 양말이 커먼스에 올린 사진의 사용
  • 헤일브론, 드레스덴 또는 그 밖의 다른 곳의 중요하지 않은 건물이나 거리 같은 일부 특이한 주제들
  • 독일어 또는 히브리어 언어의 일부 또는 이전 버전.
  • 또 다른 콤플렉스는 중요하지 않은 이스라엘의 정치인이나 예술가의 기사들이다.
  • 이런 종류의 기사들은 보통 히브리어 단어/어휘/어휘를 거의 가지고 있지 않으며, 또한 마지막 버전에서도 그렇다.
  • 번역되지 않았거나 몇 개의 다른 언어로 된 광범위한 인용문.
  • 유대인 기도나 유대교 회당과 같은 유대인 배경을 가진 다른 주제들
  • 매우 빈번한 불필요한 빈 줄
  • 레이아웃은 일반적으로 완전히 엉망진창이고, 언어의 혼합이고, 주제들의 혼합이고, 많은 주제들이 있다.
  • 과도한 참조: 한 문장의 동일한 출처에 연결된 각주 몇 개.여러 개의 각주, 각 유의 단어 뒤에 자주 각주.한 문장은 6개 이상의 각주를 가질 수 있다.
  • 단문 내에서 많은 소규모 또는 최소의 변경은 단계적으로 이루어지지만 내용상의 부분적인 변경은 없다.Unser migt는 세 문장을 설정하기 위해 30개 이상의 편집을 사용한다.
  • 굵은 글꼴, 기울임꼴, 큰 태그, 작은 태그의 조합도 글 전체에 흩어져 있다.
  • 링크의 남용, 동일한 것들이 각각의 문장에서 반복적으로 연결된다.
  • 같은 단어의 서로 다른 철자법의 혼합.
  • 만족은 적지만 문학은 많다대부분은 주제와 거의 관련이 없는 미공개되지 않았다.
  • 많은 정리해고.

이제 이 정보로 네가 원하는 대로 해.이 양말과 편집은 약 2년 정도 되었으므로 CU에게 너무 늦었다 — 기프트즈워그 88(토크 기여) 22:27, 2016년 1월 16일(UTC)[응답]에 의해 서명되지 않은 코멘트가 추가되었다.

User Messina는 현재 세계적으로 금지되어 있다 [28] --Giftzwerg 88 (토크) 15:30, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

전역 이름 변경

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

내가 사용자 이름 vio를 위해 차단한 선의의 사용자 Duffhouseroyalwiki(토크 · 기여)는 사용자 이름을 바꾸고 싶어 한다.분명히 나는 그것을 할 수 없다. 왜냐하면 나는 국제적인 권한이 없기 때문이다.그들은 지금 애처롭게 이번 주에 그것이 검토될 것인지 묻고 있다.사용자에게 "아, 그냥 새 계정을 만드세요"라는 메시지를 썼지만, 그 다음엔 그게 더 복잡해질지도 모른다는 생각이 들었다.적절한 권한을 가진 사람이 좀 도와주시겠습니까?(두 배로 늘어난 언블록 요청 죄송…) 비쇼넨톡 13:14, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[답답하다]

나는 차단 해제 요청을 정리해서 실제 차단 해제 요청을 처리했다. 지금 이름을 바꾸기만 하면 된다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 13:25, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
아마도 다음 단계는 사용자가 WP:CHUS? --David Biddulph (talk) 13:39, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답]에서 요청을 하는 것이다.
@MusikAmonal: 그들이 특별히 이러한 이유로 Global renamer를 신청했기 때문에.조조 유메루스 (토크, 기여) 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC) 14:32, 응답
이제 모든 것이 끝났다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 2016년 1월 20일(UTC) 14시 51분(답변)
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:에리크반B interwiki BANDALATION

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

페이지 이름 변경에 관한 내용이다.포르토부폴레이 페이지는 원래 en에만 있는 것이 아니라 이렇게 쓰여졌다.위키백과뿐만 아니라 다른 언어를 가진 위키에서도 그렇다.그리고 이것은 내가 아래에 보여주려고 하는 올바른 이름이다.한 쌍의 네덜란드 관리자(한 쌍은 사용자:에릭반B)는 내가 감히 nl로 이름을 고쳤을 때 모든 위키페이지에서 포르토부폴레로 이름을 바꾸기 시작했다.위키백과그래서 나는 규칙대로 문제를 처리하려고 생각했다.Talk:에서 페이지 이름 변경을 요청했었습니다.포르토부폴레와 그 안에:토론자:포르토부폴레(이탈리아 마을에 속하기 때문에).거기서 나의 이유를 읽을 수 있지만, 여기서도 요약된다: 이탈리아어에서는 억양에 대한 많은 혼동이 있다. 특히 악센트 E에 대한 혼동이 있는데, 악센트는 심각한 액센트와 급성 액센트를 둘 다 가질 수 있는 유일한 모음이다.발음과 맞춤법 가이드가 존재하는 것도 이 때문이다. DOP(이탈리아 언어의 가장 중요한 발음/발음 사전), DiPI(더 큰 샷, 더 완성), Sapere.it(이탈리아의 주요 온라인 백과사전), 트레카니(이탈리아 가장 권위 있는 백과사전)와 같은 안내서.이 철자를 사용하기 위해 영어와 이탈리아어 위키 둘 다에서 설립되었고, 그래서 관리자들은 다른 언어에서도 그 이름을 정정했다.그러나 어제 이 모든 불필요한 혼란의 발단이 된 네덜란드인 관리자 중 한 명이 아무에게도 상의하지 않고 임의로 "포르토부폴레"가 잘못되었다고 판단하고 다시 많은 위키 페이지들의 이름을 바꾸었다. 지금까지 그들은 다음과 같다.네덜란드어, 프랑스어, 독일어, 포르투갈어, 그리고...영어!이건 공공 기물 파손 행위야만약 내가 "동의 없이" 페이지를 변경할 때였다면, 그의 권력을 남용한 이 행정관이 "동의" 페이지를 "반대"하는 것이다.자신의 언어 위키뿐만 아니라, 이 언어가 있는 다른 언어들에도, 주어와 국제 위키가 있고, 첨예한 억양으로 정확한 철자를 사용하기로 결정된 첫 번째 위키도 있다.만약 그것이 사실이라면, 이 마을의 시립 사이트가 (대부분) 심각한 액센트를 사용한다면, 그것은 진실과 같다: 그것은 다른 것과 더 정확한 철자를 사용하며, 또한 액센트를 대신해서 아포스트로피가 있는 곳에 철자를 사용한다는 것을 기억하자; 그것은 "perché" 대신에 "perché"와 같은 억센트에 대한 직교 오류를 만든다; 그것은 정형화된 것이 아니다.pic guide와 반대로, 그것은 모두 모순된다; 악센트가 있는 E로 끝나는 많은 이탈리아 도시들의 다른 도시 사이트들은 그들의 홈페이지에 잘못된 철자를 가지고 있다. (앞의 관리자도 아마 즉시 가서 그것들을 수정할 것이기 때문에 나는 예시를 만들고 있지 않다); 이탈리아인이 아닌 사람들은 악센트로 우리가 만드는 혼란을 알지 못한다.학교에서 우리는 무덤과 예리한 사투리를 구분하는 것조차 배우지 않는다. 그리고 심지어 시법 ([29])에서도 악센트를 대신하여 아포스트로피를 사용한다는 사실과 악센트를 사용할 때 어떤 기사에서는 무덤을 발견하기도 하고 어떤 기사에서는 음, 음, 음, 이것은 그 신뢰성에 대해 많은 것을 말해준다.그러므로: 제발 이 행정관이 개인적인 감정만을 위해 위키프로젝트를 파괴하는 것을 중단하게 하고, 그에 의해 파괴된 모든 기사에 대한 일치된 철자를 복원해 달라. 151.20.4.197 (대화) 16:29, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

IP들이 지난 며칠간 공공 기물 파손에 대한 비난을 하면서 도대체 무슨 짓을 하고 있는 겁니까?북빛의 칼날( (して下い) 16:46, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답하라]

나는 그들과는 아무 관계도 없다.하지만 내가 위에서 설명한 행동을 어떻게 정의하시겠습니까? 151.20.4.197 (대화) 17:24, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답하라]

하지만 내가 위에서 설명한 행동을 어떻게 정의하시겠습니까?"내용 분쟁".비록 (당신 스스로 인정하듯이) "포르토부폴레"가 코무네 자체가 그들의 웹사이트에서 일관되게 사용하는 것이고, 그들은 아마도 그들 자신의 이름의 철자를 어떻게 쓰는지 알고 있을 것이다.무지개빛 18:20, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답하라]

이리슨트: "...아마도 그들은 자기 이름의 철자를 알고 있을 겁니다." 그리고 그것은 이탈리아어와 영어 대화 페이지의 명확한 이슈들 중 하나이다. 당신의 진술은 부정확하다. 151.20.4.197 (대화) 18:31, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답하라]

그래, 이리슨트 넌 스펠링에 대해 정확하지 않아EEng (대화) 2016년 1월 16일 18:43, 16 (UTC)[답글]
nl-wiki의 이 페이지를 모두 참조해 주시겠습니까?에릭반비는 nl-wiki(많은 사람들이 언젠가 그가 지원하기를 바랬지만)에 대한 시솝이 아니라, 우리의 가장 가치 있는 반달리즘 투사와 관제사 중 한 명이다.또한 나는 다른 동적 IP 주소를 가지고 로그인할 때마다 이 사람에게 괴롭힘을 당했다.안녕하십니까, 모이라 모이라 모이라(토크) 2016년 1월 16일(UTC) 18:25[응답]

거기서: 위에서 말한 다른 네덜란드 행정관.그가 네덜란드어 토크 페이지에서 하는 리어소니언은 다음과 같다.I don't care about your sources, no matter how strong and reliable; I don't care about the inconsistency of the official site, where you find not only both Portobuffolè and Portobuffolé but also Portobuffole' (with apostrophe!) and where you find several accent/apostrophe spelling errors (such as "perchè" and "Mansue'"); I don't care about what wa양쪽 모두에 대해 확립된 s.위키백과, 국제 와이키, 그리고 그 안에.위키피디아, 도시 철자에 대해 가장 걱정해야 할 것; 나는, 용서한다. 우리는 "포르토부폴레"가 완전히 옳고 "포르토부폴레"는 완전히 틀렸다고 결정했다. 그리고 이름을 바꾸기를 원하는 이탈리아 IP와 개인적인 것이기 때문에, 나는 이러한 나의 행동이 위키 프로젝트 자체에 해를 끼치더라도 상관하지 않는다.그것이 그가 링크된 토크 페이지에서 의미하는 것이다.나는 이 네덜란드 관리자에게 처음에 그가 nl에 대한 나의 편집 내용을 되돌리기 시작했을 때 상기시켜 주고 싶다.위키백과, 나는 이 행정관의 토크 페이지에 올라와서 이 문제에 대해 정중하게 토론하고 내 관점을 설명하라고 했다...네덜란드어로 된 해답과 잘 숨겨져 있지 않은 대화할 기회를 놓치기 위해서입니다.그가 nl에서 나갔을 때.위키백과에서 "포르토부폴레"라고 이름붙인 모든 기사를 "포르토부폴레"로 옮겼는데, 심지어 이전의 철자법(예: en의 철자법)이 맞는 것까지도 그랬다.위키피디아), 음, 내가 어떻게 느끼고 나쁘게 반응했는지 상상할 수 있을 것이다.그러나 1개월간의 나의 반응은 위키피디아 자체의 정확성을 무효화시키는 타당한 이유인가? 또한 결정을 존중하고 제공된 출처에 따라 페이지를 옮긴 영어, 이탈리아어 및 기타 언어 관리자들에게도 반기를 들게 한다. 151.20.4.197 (대화) 18:59, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

WP를 읽어보십시오.NOTVAND.이것이 적절한지 아닌지는 공공 기물 파손이 아니며, 그렇지 않은 것에 대해 공공 기물 파손을 계속 고발하는 것은 인신공격으로 볼 수 있다. - 부시 레인저 00:50, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

부시 레인저: 그렇다면 나는 너에게 질문이 하나 있다.내가 위에서 제공한 자료들을 연결하는 Wikis를 가로질러 페이지를 처음 옮겼을 때, "그"는 "반달리즘"이라고 불렸고, "나"는 "반달"이라고 불렸고"(그리고 차단됨), 내 편집은 모든 위키에서 되돌렸고, 모든 위키에서 내가 위키간 반달이라는 요약에서 내가 전세계적으로 차단된 위키간 반달이라는 것이 밝혀졌을까?아니면, 더 좋은 것은, 내가 지금 같은 일을 하고 있다는 사실이 잘못된 것인데 왜 이것이 옳았는가?그리고 이번에 페이지를 옮긴 사람은 영어 관리자, 이탈리아어 관리자, 다른 언어 관리자였다는 것을 기억하라, 그리고 또한 이 두 가지 모두를 기억하라.위키백과와 그 안에.위키피디아에 따르면, 우리는 정확한 철자가 포르토부폴레이고 페이지 이름을 바꾸는 것이 옳다는 것에 동의했지만, 그것은 나의 개인적인 계획이 아니었다.나는 네가 나에게 대답하고 나의 이 의심에 대해 명확히 해주길 바란다. 151.20.4.197 (대화) 9:20, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)

좋아, 난 이 일에 많은 시간을 투자하지 않을 거야.첫째로, 철자에 대한 어떠한 일치도 없다는 것을 알게 되었고, 그럼에도 불구하고, 모든 위키에서 철자가 바뀌었기 때문에, 나는 몇 개의 위키에서 움직임을 되돌렸고, Portobuffolé가 올바른 철자가 아닐 수 있는 다섯 가지 무작위적인 이유를 말했다.코무네 포르토불레(TV), 시티 포스터, 구글 어스, 지역 웹사이트, 도 홈페이지.그게 다야.나는 나의 네덜란드어 토론 페이지에서 이탈리아인 관리자인 루카스로부터 친근한 메시지를 받았으나, 그 후 IP 주소 151을 받았다.*** 갑자기 나타났는데, 누군지 모르겠어.현재 모든 곳에서 긴 논의가 이루어지고 있는데, 예를 들어 이 페이지, 여기, 여기, 그리고 여기에서는 '반달' 행정관 모이라 모이라 모이라가 공공 기물 파손에 대한 비난을 반박하고 있다.페이지를 옮기기 전에 모든 사람이 동의하는 것이 최선이다.나는 확실히 파괴자가 아니다.에릭반비 (토크) 14:49, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

정확하게 말하는 걸 좋아하는군그때가 되자.나는 en에 대해 이사 요청을 했다.위키피디아는 받아들여졌다.내가 가져온 자료들은 튼튼하고 믿을 만했으며 그들은 정확한 철자가 포르토부폴레라는 것을 분명히 입증한다.내가 그런 정보원을 보여줬을 때.토론이 지연되고 있는 위키피디아에서 그들은 문제의 전환점으로 여겨졌다.나는 그것을 nl로 이해할 수 있다.위키백과, "당신의" 위키, 당신은 외국 사용자들이 옳다고 해도 페이지를 바꾸는 것을 허락하지 않을 수도 있지만, 당신이 하게 된 것은 사실이다.위키피디아는 단지 당신의 개인적인 의견 "IS" 반달리즘에 근거하여 아무에게도 묻지 않고 페이지의 이름을 바꾸는 것을 말한다.그렇지 않다면, 페이지를 nl로 옮기려고 했을 때, 그것은 나와 비슷한 행동이 아니었다.위키백과도 마찬가지야.나는 이미 다른 네덜란드 관리자에 대해 얘기했다. 나는 비록 이곳이 적절한 장소가 아닐지라도, 다시 한 번 "당신의" 출처와 그들의 신뢰성에 대해 말하고 싶다.아포스트로피(AFORCROPHE)와 함께 홈페이지 '포토부폴(Portobuffole)'에서만 4번(4)번 읽었던 바로 그 사이트?'포르토부폴레', '포르토부폴레', '포르토부폴레'(동일한 문서의 3가지 버전, 공식 문서 및 "공식 문서"의 가장 중요한 문서)를 읽는 공식 법령([30])을 찾을 수 있는 동일한 사이트?다음: Google 이미지?나도 그것을 사용할 수 있다. [31].다음: Google 지도?그들은 그 이름을 어디서 가져왔을까?공식 사이트로부터, 분명히, 내가 이미 보여준 신뢰성이야.지역 사이트?부메랑 효과: 나는 "보티아모 포르토부폴레" borgo dei borghi di iltiani"를 읽었다.아포스트로피와 함께, 다시.신뢰성, 또.지방 사이트?나는 아포스트로피 버전을 4번 읽었는데, 심지어 팔뚝에서도 읽었고, 단지 "포르토부폴레"는 2번 읽었어.부메랑 효과, 다시.당신은 단지 당신의 진술이 옳다는 것을 증명할 수 있는 어떤 것이든 웹을 검색하고 있을 뿐이고, 내가 맨 처음 권위 있는 백과사전들과 발음/정문 가이드들을 가져왔을 때, ALL은 똑같이 말한다: 올바른 철자는 포르토부폴레이다.기간정확하게 하자. 151.20.4.197 (대화) 19:20, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

이런 사소한 문제로 화낼 필요는 없다고 생각하오니 WP:무엇보다도 사랑하라.인신공격과 불편한 감정을 피하기 위해 이용자에 대한 것이 아니라 출처와 이유에 대해 이야기하십시오.나는 Talk:에 답장을 올렸다.포르토부폴레, 관심 있으시면 거기에 메모를 남겨주십시오.고마워. :-) --루카스 (대화) 05:53, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

범위 블록 필요

여보세요

HJ Mitchell의 추천으로, 그는 매우 바쁘기 때문에, 나는 이것을 여기에 연결한다.이에 대해 범위 블록을 수행할 수 있는 관리자가 있는가?그것은 수많은 기사들을 포함하는 매우 끔찍한 파괴적인 IP 홉핑이며, 꽤 오랫동안 이렇게 되어가고 있다.이 IP 홉핑이 가장 중요하고 명백한 파괴적인 것일 뿐만 아니라..이성은 또한 이곳의 많은 사용자들에게 매우 거슬린다.게다가, 그는 종종 싸우며, 사실적으로 잘못된 정보를 덧붙이기도 하고, 그렇지 않은 것을 덧붙인다.그것은 기본적으로 광범위한 IP를 통해 양말퍼플링을 한다.따라서 이 범위는 위키백과의 정책을 위반할 뿐만 아니라 위키백과의 내용과 진실성을 해치는 것이기 때문에 차단되어야 한다.(페이지 보호는 몇 가지 기사에 대해 이루어졌지만 그가 편집하는 방대한 기사를 감안할 때 도움이 되지 않을 것이다.)사용자가 진정으로 이곳에 기여하고 싶다면 계정을 만들어야지, 광범위한 IP 홉핑에 의존해서는 안 된다고 제안한다.

Bests(이 페이지가 올바른 ANI 페이지가 아니라면 실례) - LouisAaragon(대화) 16:18, 2016년 1월 17일(UTC)[응답]

나는 IP 범위를 계산하기 위해 모듈 작업을 하고 있으며, 위에서 무엇을 하는지에 대한 데모(permalink)를 여기에 붙여 놓았다.별로 도움이 되지 않는 것 같아.조누니크 (대화) 00:46, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
기본 범위는 2600:1001:b000::/39. 미디어위키는 물론 이유가 있어 /64블록만 허용한다.RangeContribs는 소수의 편집만 제공하는 것 같다. (또한 도구가 IPv6 CIDR 범위를 지원하지 않는 이유).내 생각에는 소프트블록이 안전할 것 같은데, 물론 차단 관리자가 여러 /64블록을 차단해야 할 것이다. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 07:11, 2016년 1월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

사용자의 잘못된 동작:모나778

이 유저는 짐보 웨일즈에게 나와 예자 "유저들의 갱...스페인어 위키백과의 상황 때문에" 제3세계 라틴 아메리카 국가들로부터"라고 말했다.우리는 그 위키백과의 sysops 입니다. 모나778은 스페인어 위키백과의 사용자 대화 페이지에 있는 그의 메시지를 항상 지웠기 때문에 지역적인 블록을 가지고 있었습니다만,또한 영어 위키백과와 커먼즈에서도 같은 패턴을 보았다.역사 페이지를 보면서 그는 계속해서 CleverBot NG, Ponyo, AKS.9955 그리고 나로부터 메시지를 지웠다.그래서 나는 경고들을 복권했다 왜냐하면 사용자들은 아마도 그의 사용자 페이지에서 경고를 보지 않기를 원할지도 모르기 때문이다.그러나 그는 어떤 문제에 대해서도 짐보 웨일스를 방패로 삼아, 어쩌면 더 강력한 보호를 추구하고, 우리와 스페인식 sysops에게 가능한 "벤데타"라고 비난하며, 우리를 스토커로 지목한 오보를 이용한다.

모나778은 Archive를 만들었지만, 비어있어서 이전의 모든 메시지가 누락되었다.이제, 새로운 사용자 MPS1992로부터 경고 메시지를 받았는데, 나에 대해 전혀 알지 못했다.난 2005년부터 사용자야. 그리고 스페인어 위키백과에서 온 10살짜리 sysop과 다른 프로젝트도. 나도 Meta sysop이었어.그래서 나는 MPS1992가 모나778의 잘못된 정보 때문에 조작되었다고 추론한다.또한, 나는 MPS1992에 이러한 부주의한 대응에 대해 사과를 요구한다.

모나778의 공백도 되돌리지 않을 것이며, MPS1992의 경고를 되돌리지 않을 것이지만, 이 왜곡된 상황에 대한 회신이 필요하다. --Taichi (대화) 05:24, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[회신]

  • 어디서부터 시작할까?우선, 경고를 없애는 것은 괜찮다.스페인 위키에서 그걸 차단한다면, 전력을 공급해. 하지만 우리가 여기서 굴리는 방식은 그게 아니야.둘째, 나는 경고와 무엇을 위한 것인지 살펴보았다.단서봇은 틀렸다. 이 편집에는 아무 문제가 없었다.AKS.9955의 경고도 틀렸다:AKS의 입장에서 되돌아온 것은 그들이 무엇을 되돌렸는지 보려고 하지 않았거나 영어를 읽지 않았다는 것을 의미한다.그리고 나서 당신은 포뇨로부터 잘못된 경고 두 개와 오래된 것 두어 개를 복구한다.아니, 그건 좋지 않아, 타이쵸. 너희들은 서로 다른 규칙을 가지고 있을지도 모르지만, 여기서는 우리 규칙을 따라야 할 거야.그리고 절대적으로 옳은 MPS1992에 돌을 던지지 마라.당신이 해야 할 가장 좋은 일은 모나에게 쓸모없는 경고를 잘못 재설치한 것에 대해 사과하고 나서 따라가는 것이다.드레이미스 (대화) 06:17, 2016년 1월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

문제 서명

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

나는 정말 이 문제를 어디서 또 꺼내야 할지 몰랐다.나는 지난 몇 년 동안 확실히 헐라발루 울포위츠와 의견 차이를 보였지만, 지금은 그의 서명의 부록("The Big Bad Wolfowitz (일명 헐라발루)이다. 2006년 이후 관리자들로부터 더러운 취급을 받았다.)—그가 언제 그랬는지 확실하지 않다; 바로 내가 그것을 알아차렸을 때—그것은 나를 화나게 하는 것이다.내 말은, 만약 그가 그렇게 느낀다면, 그럼 왜 여기 있는 거지?Erpert 11:19, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

아마도 그가 관리자보다 백과사전을 더 신경 써서 그런가?솔직히 말해서, 그는 억울함을 느끼는 것이 정당하다.운이 좋았다고 생각해, 적어도 반짝반짝 빛나지 않아.오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(대화) 11:26, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
좀 투박하다.아마도 세부적인 사항들은 생략하고 "2006년 이후로 흙처럼 다루어졌다"고 간단히 말할 수 있을 것이다.그것은 혀를 훨씬 더 부드럽게 굴린다.Rgrds. --64.85.217.207 (대화) 14:16, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 아니, 아니.만약 우리 관리들이 10년 동안 그를 쓰레기 취급한다면, 우리는 그것에 대해 신용을 얻는 것이 좋을 것이다.UltraExactZZ ~ 2016년 1월 20일 14시 19분 (UTC) 했니[응답]
Also, signature's fine. Just don't call out a specific admin or personal attack or whatever. UltraExactZZ Said ~ 2016년 1월 20일 14시 19분 (UTC)했다[응답하라]
내 눈에는 문제 없어.아마도 18번 사용자:위키백과의 행동에 대한 안티드루스/관찰, 혹은 그가 아닐 수도 있지만, 어느 쪽이든, 그것은 어떤 종류의 제재도 정당화할 수 있는 것이 아니다.나이튼드 (대화) 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC) 14:30 (응답)
아직도 너무 엉성한 IMO야. 아마도 "2006년 이후로 관리자들에 의해 망쳐졌다"아니면 "2006년 이후 관리자에 의해 해제"된 것일 수도 있다.어쨌든.Rgrds. --64.85.217.207 (대화) 15:21, 2016년 1월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

한 가지 더 빨리...

내가 그의 토크 페이지에 그에게 물어보지 않은 이유는 그가 몇 년 전에 나를 금지시켰기 때문이라고 말하는 것을 잊었다.에르퍼트 01:57, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]

그러면 그의 서명을 무시하고 전혀 올라가지 않는 것도 허용된다...--Jayron32 03:54, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

NewsAndEventsGuy가 보도한 NewsAndEventsGuy

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

오늘 아침, 나는 지금 오리건에서 진행 중인 직업에 대한 토크 페이지의 줄에서 출발했다.이후 WP와 함께:APPNOTE를 염두에 두고 의도적으로 내 의견에 동의할 수도 있고 동의하지 않을 수도 있지만 스레드에 관심이 있을 수도 있는 Eds와 함께 다양한 페이지를 선택하여 스레드에 포인터를 게시했다.나는 WP를 알고 있었다.의견 조사 및 WP:스팸 메일은 다양한 관점에서 토론으로 더 많은 이해 관계자들을 끌어들이면서 두 가지 모두를 따르려고 노력했다.여기 있다...

2016년 1월 16일 10시 32분 토크:시에라 클럽 10:31, 2016년 1월 16일 토크:2016년 1월 16일, 전국우수육협회 10:29 토크:2016년 1월 16일 세이지브러시 반란 10:26 토크:2016년 1월 16일, 10:26 연방 토지:2016년 1월 16일 오리건 주 하니 카운티 10:24, 토크:2016년 1월 16일 오레곤 주 번즈:말허르 국립 야생동물 보호구역 10:21, 2016년 1월 16일 대화:번디 교착상태 2016년 1월 16일 10시 19분 대화:주권시민운동

나는 소버린 시트 운동으로 시작해서, 시에라 클럽에서 끝마쳤는데, 이것은 내 노력이 편파적인 견해를 구걸하지 않는 것을 보여주는 것이기를 바란다.

나중에, 한 관리자가 나와 대화 페이지 중 한에서 잠깐 대화를 나누었다.나는 그들이 관리자인지 몰랐고, 나는 WP가 다음과 같이 생각한다고 설명했다.앱노트가 적용됨.실질적인 회신이 없는 상태에서, 관리자는 스팸을 인용하는 모든 게시물을 삭제했다.나는 관리자와 사이가 나쁘다.그들의 이름을 언급하지 않음으로써 나는 내가 그들에게 화나지 않고 불평하지 않는다는 것을 보여주려고 노력하고 있다. 내가 이 일을 시작했으니, 나는 개인적으로 이 서류작업에 대해 그들에게 말할 것이다. 그리고 그들은 그들이 원하든 원하지 않든 간에 여기 의견을 말할 수 있다. 누군가가 설명하기만 한다면.

처음에, 나는 그들이 나의 토크 페이지 논평을 파괴하는 규칙적인 에드라고 생각했을 때 그들의 토크 페이지에서 그들에게 도전했다.내가 나의 신분 확인 오류를 알게 되었을 때, 나는 내가 실수를 한 것이 틀림없다는 것을 깨닫고 교육을 요청했다.그들은 사양했다.그 대화는 여기 있어

그래서 여기서 나는 여전히 무지하다.이 페이지들에 보내진 동일한 메시지가 왜 WP인지 누군가 설명해 주시겠습니까?WP가 아닌 스팸 위반:앱노트?

==분디의 민병대의 요구===[말허르 국립 야생동물 보호구역 점령]에 대한 우리의 기사에 대해서는 [말허르 국립 야생동물 보호구역]에 있는 그 기사의 토크 페이지에서 논평하는 것을 고려하십시오.직업_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge#_we_say_anything_about_Public_Lands_Privatization_and_demand_feds_cede_소유?"공영지 민영화와 연방정부의 요구는 소유권을 양도하는 것에 대해 더 말할까?]

계몽해줘서 고마워 NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:02, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

용암에 응답

:::장점에 대한 당신의 불평에 대답하게 되어 기쁘다. 24시간이 필요해 뉴스앤드이벤츠Guy (토크) 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC) 20:20, 20:20, Lamba가 나를 상대로 Tban을 찾는 것을 철회하자, 이것은 이제 엉망이 되었다.나는 여전히 이러한 맥락에서 가이드라인을 적용하는 일부 관리자들이 스팸과 앱노트에 대해 가르쳐 줬으면 좋겠고, 그 문제에 대해서는 다른 프로세스를 통해 그 문제에 대한 관리자 의견을 추구했어야 했더라면 좋았을 텐데.기꺼이 모자를 쓰고 거기에 가겠다.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:54, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

응? 무슨 불만이야? (그리고 만약 "24시간"이 필요하다면, 네가 또 다른 문자의 벽을 타이핑하고 있다는 뜻이야, 제발, 하지 마.아무도 더 이상 자전적 소설을 쓸 시간이 없다.아무도 너에게 불평을 하지 않았으니, 아무 대응도 필요 없다.우리 모두를 위해서라도 그쯤에서 그냥 내버려두십시오.)용암바론 (대화)20:25, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
@NewsAndEventsGuy:나는 관리자가 아니지만, 여기 당신이 찾고 있는 설명이 있다.첫째로, 나는 WP와의 링크가 다음과 같다고 생각한다.스팸메일은 틀렸다, 나는 Lambaron이 적절한 연결고리를 말한 것이 비슷한 이름의 유세 가이드라인이라고 생각한다.문제는 네가 지나치게 엇갈린 글을 썼다는 것이다.게시물 보니까 9페이지에 올린 것 같은데.그것은 특히 기사 페이지에 많은 것이다.여러 사람에게 알리려면 WP를 이용하십시오.많은 인원을 확보하거나 한두 개의 위키프로젝트 페이지나 다수의 관찰자가 있는 기사 토크 페이지에 게시하는 RFC.WP 바로 아래에 있는 섹션:APPNOTE는 "대량 게시"가 부적절한 통보라는 것을 보여준다.용암바론당신이 언급한 관리자(및 나 자신)는 아마도 당신이 WP를 위반하여 너무 많은 기사에 글을 올리고 있다고 믿었을 것이다.참고 및 WP: 광범위하게 유세하다.우가포드 (대화) 21:07, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
@Wugapodes: - 나도 당신 의견에 동의하지만, 명확하게 설명하자면, 나는 NewsAndEventsGuy에 교차 포스팅하는 것에 대해 이 문제를 제기하지 않았다. @Valfontis: 분명히 그랬다.나는 단지 그가 스스로 보도하는 것이 심상치 않은 일이라고 생각했기 때문에 여기에 끼어들었을 뿐이다(나는 뉴스앤드이벤츠구의 기고 이력을 지켜보고 있었다. 그것은 종종 편집자들이 아래 나의 다른 의견에서 언급된 바와 같이 기사를 통해 허리케인을 치고 난 후 약간의 정리를 해야 하기 때문이다. 그에게서 어떤 격노한 최초 발작을 하는 것 외에는 결코 큰 문제가 아니다.d 그는 결코 전쟁이나 어떤 것을 편집하지 않는다 - 확실히 차단하거나 금지할 가치가 있는 것은 아니다, 단지 약간 지루하다. - 나는 그의 특이한 편집 스타일에 대한 구체적인 문제가 무엇인지 알고 있다. 그것이 내가 의도적으로 이것을 ANI에 가져오지 않은 이유인지 알고 있다. 왜냐하면 나는 그가 다소 느슨해질 자격이 있다고 생각한다 - 물론, 그가 그를 보고하기로 결정했을 때 나의 최선의 노력은 허사였다.셀프]). 용암바론(토크) 22:13, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
미안, 네 입에 말을 넣을 생각은 아니었어.나는 위를 쳤다.우가포드 (대화) 22:16, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
문제 없어, 이 상호작용들은 뉴스와 이벤츠가 종종 높은 수준의 혼란 속으로 빠져드는 것을 볼 수 있어.용암바론 (토크) 22:21, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 송어 지원 7일 TBAN - WP 편집을 위해 보여준 열정과 활달함은 칭찬할 만하다.하지만, 현재...특이한...편집 방식이 혼란을 일으키고 있다.ANI에서 자신을 보고하는 것이 이것의 대표적인 예다.끈질기게 나의 토크 페이지에 글을 올려라. 나는 발폰티스가 제안했던 것과 비슷한 몇 가지 온화한 지침을 스스로 뒤집는다. 그렇지 않으면 당신이 나를 보고할 것이다.관련 없는 AfD 논의의 "사전"을 인용하여 백지/반환으로 "게릴라 삭제" 기사[32]도 또 다른 예다.뜻밖에 비교적 차분하고 예의 바른 페이지에 비틀거리는 텍스트의 벽[33]을 소개하는 것도 또 하나의 예다.당신 자신이 위에서 인용한 예들이 더 많은 예들이다.너는 도자기 가게에서 좀 황소가 되었구나.다시 말하지만, 나는 이것이 의도적인 것이 아니라고 생각한다. 만약 당신이 며칠 동안 먼 곳에서 관찰할 기회를 가졌다면 당신은 매우 훌륭한 편집자가 될 수 있을 것이다.용암바론 (토크) 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC) 19:58 [응답]
  • 송어뉴스앤드이벤츠구이는 2011년부터 다소 일관된 편집자였다.그는 새로 온 사람이 아니고 나는 단지 단서조절이 필요하다고 생각한다.나는 그의 행동이 파괴적이었다는 훈계만으로 충분하다고 느낀다. 주제 금지가 의도적인 붕괴가 아닌 만큼 효과적이라고 보지 않는다.만약 그가 라바바론이 인용한 혼란에 대해 알고 있다면, 나는 그가 적응하기에 충분히 성숙한 편집자라고 믿는다.아마도 나는 사람에 대한 믿음이 너무 많은 것 같지만, 주제 금지는 너무 심한 것 같아.우가포드 (대화)20:12, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
좋은 지적이야, 워가포드 단서조정이 뉴스앤드이벤츠Guy가 필요로 하는 전부라고 내가 확신하게 만들었지?내 의견을 훈계만 하는 것으로 바꾼다.용암바론 (대화)20:14, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
@Wugapode:네 코멘트 고마워.그래 나는 그 혐의들에 대해 알고 있다.만약 그가 그들을 믿는다면, 그는 아마 AE에 신고해야 할 것이다.우리 둘 다 DS-AP가 적용된다는 것을 알고 있다.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:29, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
내 제안의 두 번째 절반은 "그리고 넘어가라"는 것이었다.AN/I에서 이미 보고하셨고, AN/I는 그 자체로 운영 중단 상태였습니다(WP:POINT)를 사용하여 당신이 좋든 싫든 지역사회의 제재에 대해 당신을 개방한다.나는 당신이 실수로부터 배우는 것이 더 나을 것 같아서 제재에 대한 트라우마를 권했지만, 그 중 일부는 당신이 AE에서 당신을 보고하도록 사람들에게 요구하지 않는 것이다.LambarBaron은 왜 당신이 편집한 것이 (특정 사례에 대한 링크와 함께) 파괴적인지에 대한 좋은 설명을 제공했다.트롤링에 대한 나의 권고는 너의 실수로부터 배우고 그것들을 다시 만들지 않기 위해 노력하는 것에 달려있다.발등을 쏘지 마라.네가 저지른 실수를 이해하고, 그것들로부터 배우고, 나아가라.Wugapodes (대화) 21:54, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
그건 쉬운 일이야...나는 실수로부터 배우기를 열망하고, 많은 것을 번다.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:20, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

공식적으로, 나는 누군가 나에게 화가 나든 안 나든 상관하지 않는다.특히 내가 알기로는 아무도 나한테 화낼 이유가 없어.내가 몇 개의 토크 페이지를 정리했는데 아마도 내가 성급했던 것 같다.토론을 즐기세요.발폰티스 (대화) 22:43, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

내가 관리자라는 사실은 내 행동과 아무런 관련이 없다는 것도 알아두지, 나는 조금도 개의치 않고 똑같이 했을 거야.나는 그 누구에 대한 제재에 대해 전혀 몰랐어. 난 그냥 오리건 페이지를 많이 봐.그리고 그렇다, 십자 포스팅은 지나쳐 보였다.건배, 발폰티스 (대화) 22:50, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
설명해줘서 고마워 @Valfontis:이러한 IAR 타입에 대해서는 주관적인 사고방식이 다를 수 있다. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:20, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC) (Later) 다른 곳에서 위키백과에 대한 당신의 링크를 보았다.Campausing#Spamming_and_excessive_cross-posting.문맥(그리고 내가 결정하면서 취한 배려를 고려할 때) 나는 그 리스트가 "무차별적"이었다고 생각하지 않는다.하지만 IAR도 효과가 있다.어쨌든.응답해줘서 다시 한번 고마워.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:34, 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

베스트셀러 음악가 목록

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

비욘세는 9년 동안 전 세계적으로 7천 5백만 장에서 1억 1천 8백만 장에서 1억 5천만 장까지 팔리지 않았기 때문에, 비욘세의 수치를 바꿔주십시오.나는 이것이 사람들을 오도하는 것이기 때문에 네가 이것을 많이 변화시킨다고 믿는다.또한 25개의 아델이 발매된 이후 이 페이지에 보도된 9,000만장의 음반보다 훨씬 더 많은 음반을 팔았다.읽어줘서 고마워 — 2A01:388:332:150:98 추가된 선행 서명되지 않은 댓글BB:C1BC:624E:7A6E (대화) 02:22, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

기사토크 페이지에서 콘텐츠 변경에 대해 논의하는 것이 가장 좋다.아직 안 해봤어?리즈 03:04, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:리겔 편대 2 위반 WP:NFCC#9

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:리겔 편대 2WP를 계속 위반한다.NFCC#9 페이지의 사용자:사용자 대화에서 경고에도 불구하고 리겔 2중대:리겔 편대 2#2016년 1월. --Stefan2 (대화) 14:54, 2016년 1월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

편집자의 사용자 페이지는 약간 WP처럼 보인다.PAKEICTION도.나이젤 이스 (토크) 2016년 1월 15일 (UTC) 17:46[응답]
실제로 WP:PAKEINSER/WP:NOTWWEBHOST 위반 및 확인 결과, G3'd 및 WP:NOTHERE, 말했듯이 가짜 기사가 여기에 온 유일한 이유였다. - 부시 레인저One ping only 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)
@The Bushranger:사용자:리겔 편대 3도 같은 모양이야.사용자:리겔 편대는 블랭킹될 때까지 했고, 스페셜:컨트롤리브/리겔 편대 4는 아무런 편집도 하지 않았다.나는 여기서 SPI를 열 것이다: 위키백과:Sockpuppet 조사/리겔 편대. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: 베이스 떨어뜨렸나?) 17:49, 2016년 1월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
...그리고 저것들을 보면 여기 양말 농장이 훨씬 더 큰 잠재력을 가지고 있다고 생각해.SPI에 게시할 겁니다. - 2016년 1월 17일 (UTC) 00:31[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:알렉시스 이바노프WP:인신공격과 노골적인 비도덕성

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

보고 중인 사용자
알렉시스 이바노프 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

이 사용자와 나는 코삭 헤트마나이트가 인포박스에서 오스만 제국의 보호국이었다고 말한 것에 대해 의견이 엇갈리고 있다.제 견해는 WP의 위치는 다음과 같다.국가 역사의 작은 부분에 대한 과도한 가중치.또한 비슷한 기사에서 위키백과에서 일반적으로 받아들여지는 관행에 어긋나는 것 같아, 나는 이것을 기사의 본문에만 배치하는 것을 주장해 왔다.그의 견해는 이것이 infobx에 포함되어야 한다는 것이다.그러나 그는 이 대화를 일부 매우 무례하고 무례한 WP에 넘겼다.에 대한 인신공격.

  • 대화:코삭 헤트마나테, 는 유저에게 부탁했다. "제발 WP가 되어주십시요.Civil 그리고 WP:에티켓을 따른다."
  • 다음 대답에서 는 다시 사용자에게 비아냥거림과 모욕감을 줄여달라고 부탁했다.
  • 이용자는 더욱 조롱 섞인 반응을 보이며 "네가 칭얼대고 칭얼대는 것을 벌써 기대한다" "너에게는 이바노프 경이니 제발 나를 이바노프씨라고 부르지 말아 달라"고 말했다.
  • 내용에 대한 이견은 계속되었다.WP에 따라:분쟁 1호는 중립적 편집자 2명에게 제3의 의견을 호소했다: 1과 2
    • 알렉산드르 그리고리예프의 토크 페이지에서 이 사용자는 나에 대해 "당신은 점점 더 많은 거짓말로 뱀처럼 미끄러지듯"이라고 말했다.
    • 다른 토크 페이지(사용자 토디1)에서 알렉시스 이바노프는 를 '귀여운 아기', '풀 속에서 움직이고 미끄러지는 뱀', '어린애', '입 다물어'라고 불렀다.
      • 나는 에게 다시 한번 명함소리와 인신공격을 중지하고, 그들을 통해 공격을 가함으로써 그 모욕감을 되찾아 달라고 부탁했다(WP에 의거:NPA) 실체를 고수해 달라고 부탁했다.마침내, 나는 그에게 이 페이지에 호소하겠다고 말했다.
      • 이용자는 "어디 가서 울어라"고 답했고, 의도적으로 무례하게 행동하고 있음을 인정했다.
  • WP에 따르면:Civil, 는 내 걱정으로 그의 토크 페이지에 있는 유저에게 연락했고, 그에게 모욕감을 철회하고, 그것을 하지 말라고 부탁했다.나는 또한 그에게 이 페이지에 호소할 것이라고 말했다.
    • 사용자가 "오물 몇 개 삭제" 요약과 함께게시물을 삭제함
    • 이용자는 내 토크 페이지에 댓글을 달며 다른 모욕 중에서도 "내 페이지를 파괴하고 더럽히는 것을 즐기지 않는다" "다시는 내 토크 페이지에 들어와 글쓰기로 망치지 말라"고 말했다.그는 또한 "계속하라"고 말하고 여기에 자신의 행동을 보고한다.
      • 는 "이것은 부적절하다"고 응답했다.
      • 사용자들은 "나는 내가 원하는 만큼 내 토크 페이지를 청소할 수 있고, 더러운 위협 전술을 삭제할 수 있다"고 응답했다.

나는 이 상황에 대해 행정관이 개입했으면 한다.여기서부터 어디로 갈까?--보구슬라프 07:04, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]

참고

사용자는 이전에 두 번 차단되었는데, 첫 번째 요약본은 "여러 기사에 대한 지속적인 편집 전쟁, 인신공격, 그 중 일부는 WP에서 바로:ANI 자체, 오염되지 않은 편집".--BoguSlav 07:15, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 코멘트: 현재 논의 중인 주제 영역에서는 전혀 관심이 없지만, 알렉시스 이바노프와의 패턴이라는 점을 지적하고 싶다.그는 WP:B에 들어가지 않고서는 협업적으로 편집하고 내용, 소싱, 정책의 논의에 중립적으로 집착하는 능력이 전혀 없는 것 같다.AT틀그라운드 모드 및 인신공격, 불성실, 판단, 빈정거림, 조롱, 분노 등에 탐닉.그를 위한 모든 것은 '넌 나를 위한 것이냐, 내게 반대하는 것이냐'하는 상황인 것 같고, 그와 의견이 맞지 않는 어떤 순간이라도 일어나면 적진이나 '나를 배신한' 진영에 있는 것이다.그것은 그와 공동편집하는 것을 거의 불가능하게 만들고, 내가 말했듯이, 토론이나 협업이 아닌 전쟁터를 만든다.그가 꽤 새롭다는 건 알지만(7개월째 편집 중) 그가 이곳에 장기 체류하려면 분명히 행동과 전망, 스타일을 바꿔야 할 필요가 있다.소프트라벤더 (토크) 07:25, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 무시무시한 코멘트:알렉시가 항상 여기서 튀어나와좋지 않다.142.105.159.60 (대화)20:11, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 절차적 코멘트 나는 이와 같이 이 실에 추가할 것이 없다(WP:사용자와의 NPA 문제:비쇼넨차단알렉시스 이바노프(Alexis Ivanov)는 3개월 전이지만 우리는 그 이후 아무런 문제가 없었고, 나는 그가 박식한 사용자라고 생각한다) 그러나 보구에게 ANI에 보고할 때마다 그들의 토크페이지에 있는 사용자들에게 반드시 알려야 한다고 지적하고 싶다. 그것은 여기서 행해지지 않았으므로 알렉시스가 정당한 통보를 받고 자신을 표현할 수 있도록 허락되기 전에 어떤 조치도 취해지지 않기를 바란다.그것은 이 실에서 나의 처음이자 마지막 논평이다. 나는 이 논쟁에 대해 아무것도 모르기 때문에 더 이상 덧붙일 말이 없다.제피즈 (토크) 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC) 20:39 [응답]
[34] 알렉시스에게 알려준 보구에게 사과하고, 알렉시스는 물론 자유롭게 할 수 있기 때문에 그것을 제거했다.내 잘못이다.제피즈 (토크)20:49, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

스틸1943

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Steel1943(대화 기여 삭제된 기여 • 핵 기여 로그 필터 로그 사용자 블록 로그) - 이 사용자에게 블록을 지정하십시오.그는 Talk에서 악의 없는 페이지 관련 질문을 허용하지 않고 있다.대기언더웨어. 134.154.255.76 (토크) 22:35, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 이 내용을 읽는 모든 사용자에게 다음 IP에 적용할 수 있는 범위 블록이 있는지 여부:팽구수사이트 금지령을 어기려고 하는 거야?나는 솔직히 매일 그들의 금지된 폭력 편집에 대처해야 하는 것에 약간 지치고 있다.스틸1943 (토크) 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC) 22:40[응답]
물론이지, 지난 몇 주 동안 그들이 나와 교류하기 위해 매일 시간을 보내는 것에 대해 내가 좀 우쭐해져야 할 것 같아. 하지만 이것은 내 좋은 쪽으로 가는 방법이 아니야.스틸1943 (토크) 22:43, 2016년 1월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
관리자가 범위를 좁힐 수 있도록 IP를 몇 개 더 제공해야 한다.134.x.x.x.x를 모두 차단하는 것은 분명 불가능하지만, 부수적인 손상이 크지 않다면 목표 범위 블록이 가능할 수 있다.블랙매인(대화) 01:17, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
이 시점에서, 나는 이 범위의 IP가 동적으로 보인다는 점을 고려하여 서브넷 마스크를 결정하는 것에 가까워지고 있다.이 편집자가 사용했던 IP는 범위를 벗어난 것이 몇 개 있어서, 사용할 때는 아마 「홈 베이스」에 있지 않지만, 그런 IP는 덜 흔하다.채널 고정!스틸1943 (토크) 02:07, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

RevDel 요청

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

관리자가 이 편집을 RevDel하시겠습니까?감사합니다.말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 05:08, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

됐어, 찾아줘서 고마워Acroterion (대화) 05:10, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워말릭 샤바즈 Stalk/ 2016년 1월 22일 05:15 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

편집기가 설정된 아티클에 Speed Deletion 태그를 반복적으로 추가

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

편집자 트로빈슨16은 토크 페이지 토론 없이 어제와 그 전(목록) 경고된 기성 기사에 빠른 삭제 태그를 반복적으로 추가했다.추가 중단을 방지하기 위해 블록이 필요함.고마워. prokaryotes (대화) 11시 2분, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

그래, 여기서도 분명히 장난을 치려고 막았어캐스 리버 (토크 · 기여) 2016년 1월 22일 12:16, (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

더 이상 로그아웃할 수 없음(고마워 WMF!)

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

로그아웃하려고 하면(예: 관리자에서 비관리자 계정으로 이동하는 등 IP로 편집하거나 계정을 변경하려는 경우), 이 작업이 더 이상 작동하지 않는 것 같고, 이는 "광범위하게 로그인"된 경우) 내가 원하는 작업보다 우선한다.이는 새로운 WMF 구현이 심각하게 잘못되어 많은 편집자에게 결과를 가져올 수 있는 것처럼 보인다(로그아웃되었다고 생각할 수 있지만 실제로 로그인되어 있다).다른 누군가가 WP에서 이미 이 문제에 대해 언급했다.VPT#Logout = 로그인 및 현재 봇 작동에 문제가 있을 수 있음.WMF에 연줄이 있는 사람을 가능한 한 빨리 처리해 줄 수 있을까?프람 (토크) 2016년 1월 22일 11시 25분 (UTC)[응답]

브라우저의 쿠키 또는 Wikipedia 쿠키만 삭제하십시오.원핵생물(대화) 2016년 1월 22일(UTC) 11시 38분(답변)
고마워, 하지만 나뿐만 아니라 모두를 위한 해결책을 찾으려고 해.프람 (토크) 11시 44분, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
여기서도 같은 문제가 재현되었다."지금 로그아웃" 결과 화면이 표시되지만, 로드한 다음 페이지에는 다시 로그인한 것으로 표시된다.만약 이것이 광범위하게 일어난다면, 그것은 주요한 보안 문제가 된다. 왜냐하면 공공 컴퓨터에서 편집한 다음 적절히 로그아웃하려고 하고 "로그아웃된" 성공 메시지에 의존하는 사용자라면, 본질적으로 그들의 계정이 눈치채지 못한 채 손상될 것이기 때문이다.Fut.Perf.☼ 11:49, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
아, 그리고 적어도 한 번은 나한테 이런 일이 있었던 것 같은데, 아마 2주 전 쯤에.그때 나는 그것이 내 브라우저의 일회성 퀴크라고 생각하면서 별로 주의를 기울이지 않았다.이것은 어떤 벌레가 이것에 책임이 있든지 간에 하루나 이틀 이상 존재해왔다는 것을 암시하는 것 같다.Fut.Perf.2016년 1월 22일 11시 55분 (UTC)[응답]
여기에 추가할 항목:나는 바로 이 시간에 그 문제에 직면했다.로그아웃을 하지만 페이지에 닿으면 아이콘 타일이 로드되지 않고...그 사용자 관련 링크의 목록을 뭐라고 부르든...제자리로 미끄러져 들어가다쿠키와 캐시를 지우려고 했는데 테스트할 때 효과가 있었지만 다시 로그인한 후 로그아웃할 수 없었다. --ProtoDrake (대화) 15:03, 2016년 1월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
  • If you have checked the Keep me logged in for 30 days the logout seems to work but if you simply log in the logout does not work. Massive security hole. JbhTalk 12:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I have filed a bug report at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124409Kusma (t·c) 12:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. It has been given the priority "unbreak now!", which sounds like "very high priority" (not sure, no idea where I could check their priority codes). Fram (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe that is the second highest priority, after "fix this within 30 minutes if you value your job". ;) ―Mandruss 12:47, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Logout works fine for me on enwiki, FWIW. 2001:8B0:FAFA:8023:B4B2:E58B:655A:C082 (talk) 12:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If it makes you feel any better, Fram, they called me early this morning to look into this. Hopefully I'll have it fixed for you ASAP. BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 13:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm glad they (and you) are taking this serious. I'm not thrilled with the general "oops, forgot to test this properly" culture at the WMF (going back for years and much more commonly seen in the new gadgets like VE, Flow, Gather, AFT, you name it), but it would be rather unfair to blame you personally for that when you are the one trying to help us here. When you have done with this, you can perhaps also check why I get such a strange range of mostly empty boxes when I log out. Beneath "Logging you out from other wikis of the Wikimedia Foundation:" there should probably be a list of logos for the other WMF sites, but on every try, only between 2 and 4 have an image, the others are plain white boxes. It is an utterly useless gimmick, as far as I can tell. But that's not urgent obviously. Fram (talk) 13:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Logout works fine for me, and always has; I wonder if it's a browser issue? I'm using Internet Explorer. Fram, FPAS, anyone else who can't log out: what browsers are you using? Nyttend (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I get logged back in both in Chrome and in Safari (on a Mac). —Kusma (t·c) 14:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I get logged back in in Firefox on Windows, so not specific to one browser or OS. It also happens at other wikis, according to the phabricator discussion. Anomie reports not getting it on her normal profuile, but having the problem with a new profile, so it is a bit weird but obviously not uncommon at all. They seem to be getting an idea of what causes it, and seem to be working hard to correct it, so that's great. Fram (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Brad Jorsch doesn't look like "she" Perhaps different browsers, by default, have cookie settings that prevent or don't prevent this from happening? Or perhaps my dislike of cookies (I block most, accepting only ones that I find useful) made me block a cookie long ago that would have enabled this to happen. Nyttend (talk) 14:36, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks. "Anomie" as a word closely resembles some feminime names in Dutch (like "Annemie"), so inadvertently I made the gender link. I'll try to remember it, but in general I don't really think about what gender anyone on Wikipedia is, and mean no offense when I incorrectly use "he" or "she". Fram (talk) 14:47, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Confirm IE works fine in the UK - in case it is a WP server issue - (another good reason to use IE ;-) ) - Arjayay (talk) 14:39, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pronoun confusion doesn't bother me. (: It should be fixed now. We're also going to log everyone out in a few minutes for good measure, in case people didn't notice some public terminal stayed logged in. Anomie 16:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for fixing this, Anomie! —Kusma (t·c) 17:06, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Anomie: Just one more thing: Since the fix, I no longer get automatically logged in to Meta by global login. Could you check that? —Kusma (t·c) 17:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma and C678: this is T124468. It's driving me nuts too since I hop wikis constantly. The patch is in the works :) Keegan (WMF) (talk) 21:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question: For all those who think they are currently logged out on a public computer, but are in fact not; would it be possible to enforce their logout centrally? --Pipetricker (talk) 13:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? Someone at WMF sends a command to log-out everyone worldwide? Nyttend (talk) 14:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Something like that, yes. --Pipetricker (talk) 14:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's possible. I think it's been done before. We also run a password-crackers on each admin account to make sure they aren't weak, so this can be easily done. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 15:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm having a similar but different session issue. This morning when I was tending the user rename queue, I sometimes got a Permission Error, and I saw I was logged out, but logged in centrally, according to the pop-up bubble, when I reloaded the page, I was logged in again, but I then logged out again. It's definitely not a cache issue as special pages don't get cached. It seems Wikimedia may have some session issues happening. Just a moment ago I got kicked from my account and actually had to login again.—cyberpowerChat:Limited Access 16:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Heads up! Issue's been fixed. Invalidation of user sessions in progress. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 17:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That explains the persistent logouts on various projects. It doesn't seem to be happening anymore.—cyberpowerChat:Limited Access 17:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I just got logged out upon visiting a separate page (going from WP:RDH to Deed of change of name) simply by clicking a link. Thanks to all you tech folks for working on this! Nyttend (talk) 18:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

National Society of Collegiate Scholars edited repeatedly by user Nscs in clear violation of WP:CORPNAME and WP:COI; other users potential COI

User Nscs (contribs) has exclusively edited pages relating to NSCS (National Society of Collegiate Scholars), and has claimed to be an NSCS employee. In addition to minor edits they have added the long list of NSCS sponsors to its page which is now in need of cleanup, and I have marked with WP:Advert. Several other users and IPs editing National_Society_of_Collegiate_Scholars are suspect, removing content that negatively portrays NSCS (example) and adding advertisement-like content. The article needs cleanup and further investigation (perhaps to be kicked downstairs to regular users), and action should be taken against user NSCS for clear policy violations. Saposhiente (talk) 11:19, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not obvious to me that a mostly lower case rendition of the acronym of a rather obscure organization screams WP:CORPNAME at me "unambiguously represent the name of a company, group, institution or product".--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Their last edit to that page was in February 2014 and several other editors have changed the page since - don't see an issue here. Mike1901 (talk) 11:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I ripped out the list of sponsors as well as some other content-guideline ripping-outing (all unrelated to who contributed it, but thanks for brining that mess to my attention even if not admin-ish). DMacks (talk) 11:58, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just slightly curious that- with the exception of today's edits- the nominator has made one edit since 2011. FortunaImperatrix Mundi 12:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nscs is 10 year old account inactive since 25 February 2014, next edit on 8th January 2016. Saposhiente was inactive for four years. Marvel Hero (talk) 14:55, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nscs was active through April, not just February, of 2014, in drafts that were rejected (on topics related to his organization). DMacks (talk) 15:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:David Biddulph left a note on User talk:Nscs about username concern and COI editing. DMacks (talk) 15:00, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting an IP block

I am requesting an indefinite IP block for following two users which are created to insult me personally. Both of them are obscene and mean really bad in Urdu:

  1. User:Jinnah ka lund choos (means "Suck Jinnah's dick"
  2. User:SheriffIsInTown apni ammi ki choot mein peshab kiya (Don't want to tell the meaning, just block it please)

These users were created after I had weeks of edit conflicts on Bangladesh articles with User:Akbar the Great along with heated conversations.

I was thanked by these two user accounts after I replied to User:Vinegarymass911's oppose vote on move request which I am supporting at Talk:2016 Ouagadougou attacks. I thanked this user earlier for an edit on that same page. I have also interacted with this user on Bangladesh articles and we kind of have opposing views but User:Akbar the Great did not seem very happy with User:Vinegarymass911's edits and he expressed that during talk discussions so it might be a ploy.

I have an ongoing conflict with User:Vaibhav.times at Adnan Sami and earlier today he left me a kind of nasty message on my talk page.

Not sure who created those two accounts but if someone can find out their relative location and see who that matches with. Sheriff ☎ 911 06:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please be sober discussing about some topics and don't blame someone without any proof, i said some relevant things and for your information i haven't created these accounts .. Please stop bullying people on your behalf . Anyone can check the messages which were in discussion on his page rather than going so low and blaming someone. Vaibhav.times (talk) 07:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The 2nd name is something on the order of "SherrifIsInTown to piss in your mother's [something]" (Google Translate's translation was "discount" but that doesn't seem to make sense, nor do the alternates it provides). Both names appear to be flagrant violations of WP:USERNAME and should be username blocked, if not indef blocked as sockpuppets. BMK (talk) 07:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@BMK [something] means le arse. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! Thanks, I can put that problem behind me now. BMK (talk) 07:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These two ids should be blocked at once because they are insult to religion as well as personal attack and whosoever involved should be punished too by blocking his/her ip too. Only my two cents that why MR Sheriff is always in conflict with most of the editors? And even for reason he is it doesn't give him any right to point fingers on others without any valid proof. It is some sort of name shame and getting so low to prove his point Vaibhav.times (talk) 07:18, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He most certainly has the right to bring their usernames to the community's attention, since, as you agree, they are flagrantly insulting. BMK (talk) 07:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

True but only conflicting usernames, not of the editors whom he differ in views on some topics. It is just relating them to the conflicting usernames and it is sort of name shame for them without any intention and reason. Once you have proper proof you can bring in anyone's name but not just basis of your useless and pointless imagination. Vaibhav.times (talk)vaibhavthedestroyer--- 07:37, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@BMK I think @User:SheriffIsInTown should open a sockpuppet investigation on these two. Although it is not fully through the "red tape" but no one can deny this kind of blatant sock puppetry. a simple checkuser will show which accounts are connected to these guys. I am quite sure it will be a nasty surprise for the person who did this.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@HighInBC: beat me to blocking both. I'd open a SSP regarding these. SQLQuery me! 07:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I blocked both of those accounts. I hard blocked them so any account on the same IPs will be autoblocked. HighInBC 07:46, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:SheriffIsInTown so proof is infront of you, please don't blame people randomly Vaibhav.times (talk)

@Vaibhav.times: You can't edit your comment like that to ping someone. You have to have the ping template, and sig in the same edit. @SheriffIsInTown: SQLQuery me! 08:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why have I been dragged into this? Sheriff, if you thought I had something to do with this, I would consider you paranoid.

A few weeks back I saw this. Isn't there a way for Wikipedia to block certain words being used as a username? Who has pig as a username? I'm sure these two accounts will be similarly blocked. I also condemn, in the strongest possible terms, the attacks on Sheriff.--Akbar the Great (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well there's Pigsonthewing, just to name one right off the top of my head. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with "pig" in a username - it's all about context. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@The Bushranger and User:HighInBC this seems to be a serial offender who uses some Ip other than his to do his dirty work. The pattern of "thanking for edits" is telltale. My 24 november notifications show that this occurred against me with the stupidly named User:FreeatlastChitchat watched his sister taking bath and User:FreeatlastChitchat is a madarchod. Perhaps there can be some work done to unmask the real guy behind this? not sure how though. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've suggested a request so that the words maybe added to DQBot's blacklist. Feel free to vet it here. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 14:41, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would just like to note to everyone that apni ammi ki choot mein peshab kiya, roughly translates into Discount to piss in your momma. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 18:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Close to a legal threat

This comment comes pretty close to making a legal threat. At the very least the user should be warned.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I left a suggestion that SoIntSa may want to make it clear that they're not the one considering legal action. My interpretation is that they are implying RT may consider the allegation, that they are a propaganda mouthpiece for the Russian government, slanderous or libelous. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


I was saying that, such material constitutes libel in some jurisdictions (such as the UK where I was born) if claims can't be carefully backed up by adequate sources: that is to say, I was speaking in concern of wikipedia, not any legal threat by any means.

And just to clarify, No I have never threatened legal action against anyone, wikipedia, or any entity, and I think my wording was unambiguous enough and quite clear, but editors want to start a ruckus in a petty attempt to silence me.

Solntsa90 (talk) 07:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to point out that Volunteer Marek has attempted to get rid of me for my opinion, even stating on the RT page "It's time you get blocked", implying that this is merely an attempt to oust me from the editing process on the RT page.

Just check the talk page, and see how vitriolic it has become; I have tried to maintain a polite demeanour, but a lot of insults and accusations can make anyone a bit grumpy. Solntsa90 (talk) 07:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I know about this case is the quoted diff in the OP. I tried to read it as a legal threat but failed. Whatever other problems there may be here I do agree with Solntsa90 saying " I was speaking in concern of wikipedia"NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
even stating on the RT page "It's time you get blocked" <-- well, yes, if you're making legal threats then it is indeed that time (though you are of course being disruptive in other ways as well).Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And just to be clear, I don't think the mere use of the word "slander" makes something a legal threat, since that word is commonly used in a non-legal sense. However, in this particular case Solntsa90 made it clear in his sentence that they did indeed mean it in a legal sense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:54, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And honestly, Solntsa90, while your edits and participation in the discussion at the article has definitely brought negative value-added there, if I was actually "trying to silence you" (though you do need to learn how to listen rather than playing at WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT) I wouldn't have suggested that you be warned but would've asked that you'd be blocked.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:56, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
People really need to stop thinking a word is a legal threat. We have a page called WP:LIBEL. It's not a legal threat to point out policy. Wikipedia:No legal threats#What is not a legal threat says explicitly that discussions regarding libelous material is not a legal threat. --DHeyward (talk) 12:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's more or less what I said above, but in this case the user did seem to be implying legal action. Anyway, the material under discussion is not libelous or even close. It's just that one user doesn't like it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The wording "That is quite slanderous, and subject even to libel" gives me pause. If someone is being slanderous the only way it makes sense to say "and subject even to libel" is if they meant libel proceedings. I would say this is ambiguous enough that we can get away with a clear warning that we are pretty strict about legal threats. HighInBC 16:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstood, it's not him (Solntsa90) making the legal threat, it's him making it clear that the editor in question might face legal threats for the content added by him. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 19:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Which makes absolutely no sense (especially since the info's straight from a few dozen sources) - who exactly would sue except the user making the comment? Anyway, the distinction may not matter, see [36]. From the policy: "For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous," that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue, even if that is not your intention. ". I do agree that in this case this could've been done out of ignorance so for now a warning is sufficient. Having said that, pretty much anytime anyone starts bringing up libel or slander accusations on talk, especially when they are objecting to well sourced material, it's basically a tactic to try and win a dispute when you can't win on merits, and so is disruptive even putting all legal stuff aside.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue that bringing an ANI NLT accusation based on a talk page discussion is much more of a tactic "to try and win a dispute when you can't win on merits, and so is disruptive even putting all legal stuff aside." I'd much rather see the discussion about why it's libelous on the talk page rather than an ANI thread that "libelous" is a legal threat. It's important to note that unless the statements are about the editor, they lack standing for legal action and is exactly why the policy excludes such discussions. Calling a statement "libelous" is not a legal threat in any sense. Not a close one. Not in the same ballpark. --DHeyward (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@HighInBC:, do you see the following as a legal threat - I don't want to see Wikipedia be sued by a third party? It's not a rhetorical question, but one I think cuts to the crux of this filing.... to me, that is what the user wrote, just in other words. @Volunteer Marek:, while you describe a common behavior, we shouldn't cultivate a kneejerk culture that concludes before it thinks. I can quote libel caselaw, and sometimes I see stuff in these pages that really looks like it could meet the legal standards, of which I have personal knowledge. So let's be dubious but open minded and take 'em case by case. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it steps over the line into "legal threat" territory the way Wikipedia uses the term, but it's only about a millimeter from stepping across that line. Editors should stay away from legalistic terms such as slander and libel. If they're concerned about Wikipedia, they should say they are concerned that such-and-such could get Wikipedia into trouble. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Shapiro

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sarah Shapiro (talk · contribs) has been to court with Naomi Ragen, and has of late extensively edited that article with the stated goal to "set the record straight for myself and the other two litigants". I have pointed her to WP:COI[37]. Her last edits [38] and [39] are very much POV, in that they try to make the subject of the article look worse than they deserve. In view of the stated goal of making her point on an article she is personally involved in, the tens of edits she has made to this article of late, and the blatant POV violation in the last two edits, which she also edit warring about, I recommend she be banned form this article. Debresser (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Handling. Nyttend (talk) 14:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked for ten hours (that should be in the middle of the night for Israel's time zone) with explanation at her talk. Nyttend (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attitude issues at Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

The video game Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain was the topic of some contoversy, namely the depiction of the character Quiet (see Metal Gear Solid: The Phantom Pain#Sexualized portrayal of Quiet). Over the last couple of months, this issue has been discussed repeatedly on the talk page. One particular IP editor (I'm assuming it is one person) is determinated to have as little of the controversy mentioned, and is convinced that who doesn't agree with them is wrong. The article itself is one thing, but this anonymous editor will not listen to reason, or just walk away. This has come to a point where this has to stop.

A message from October 6 reads: "I'm not going to be the one to make more edits at this point, but it's painfully clear people are trying to own the page". Untrue and accusatory, but not particularly a terrible attitude. After a while, they're back on January 8, starting off their new message with "Please put how you feel about it or any emotion you may have about the topic aside when you read the following points". Okay, sounds good. "There are sources and information here that talk about the PlayArtsKai figurine of Quiet. Are you out of your mind?! What relevance does this have to the RECEPTION OF THE GAME???" Taking a bit of a turn there. "To any senior editors, administrators, or anyone with an interest in Wikipedia standards. It should be extremely concerning that this level of bias is present in an article that is supposed to be by and large, factual." Extremely concerning? Oh boy.

Well, from that moment on, things got worse. On January 12 there were two messages. The first: "They're just feigning ignorance so they can use wikipedia as a soapbox or personal blog, just like creationsist or other opinion-based groups would. They want this slander to be visible in the table of contents, obviously". Later that day: "You aren't interested in presenting facts, you're interested in putting forward a particular kind of opinion. One that states that EVERYTHING is sexist/sexualized, because you folks obsess over this kind of stuff for no other reason than to be as obnoxious and supremacist as you can".

Today came another post: "Everything is sexist to them, it seems. Really every single thing. They can't even think of a world where something isn't sexist. Therefore, they have no endgame, no solution. The only thing they do is go around and troll/declare everything to be sexist."

All the while, experienced editors like @Peter Isotalo:, @Prisonermonkeys:, @Czar: and myself have pointed towards Wikipedia's guidelines on notability, on balanced articles, you name it. Today, @Sergecross73: had to semiprotect the article again, because they will not stop. --Soetermans. T / C 14:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Hogbin

Martin Hogbin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

The user consistently makes disruptive edits and his contribution to Wikipedia on the talk pages of the applicable articles is normally nothing constructive but him unreasonably claiming everything is too promotional. If you search for the word "promotional" within his edits, you'll see a large amount of those cases. One of the last incidents involved him trying to completely remove the occupations of those on the list of vegans, where his actions had already led to a large portion of the useful information being removed, such as the band names for musicians that aren't known for their solo work.
He has been warned yet continued to make numerous disruptive edits ([40][41][42]). Not only that, but he appears to be extremely biased when it comes to editing articles about animal rights and such, which falls under the definition of "Bias-based" from WP:COMPETENCE. An admin already put a link to that page on Martin's talk page. --Rose (talk) 04:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
[reply]

Even after I started this discussion and Martin was made aware of it, he continued being disruptive and made an edit asking to "find [him] some reliable sources" to support the commodity status of animals. As Sammy mentions below, this subject was discussed at length and put to rest back in June-July and Martin was among the people involved; as SarahSV summarized back then: "Martin, you've been offered sources, from the United Nations to commodity markets to academic sources, including several in the article. The onus is on you now to provide sources to support what you're saying.". The bottom line is that this is exactly the pattern of his behavior that almost everyone talked about below. --Rose (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nothing actionable here My interactions with Martin may be found primarily at Talk:Carnism (where I was usually agreeing with him) and Talk:Veganism (where I sometimes was). He is not exceptionally good at building consensus in controversial areas, but I don't think there's any fair case to be made that he edits in bad faith. He is consistently civil, even when others are less so (e.g. User talk:Martin Hogbin#Final warning). His contributions are almost always from the same POV, "disagreeing with editors who are promoting a green political agenda" [43], but they are generally reasonable. He has a tendency to spend a lot of time on frustratingly subjective points (are livestock "commodities"?, etc), but that's no grounds for admin action.
Do I think it would usually be easier to reach consensus without his input? Regrettably, yes. Does that imply the articles would be better without him? Not at all. FourViolas (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to mention that at one point he expressed the view that there should be no positive information about veganism in that article. That was the definition of neutrality to him. Just because some of his (reverted) edits lead to people paying more attention to some sentences doesn't mean that he's the reason it happens. It's just like some inexperienced vandal putting insults on a page about someone, another user reverting those yet noticing some other issues while doing so and making changes to improve the article. Should we thank the vandal for that and take no action? I don't think so. The problem with Martin is even worse as he's not new here so he deliberately makes those disruptive edits and starts practically pointless conversations repeating the same words ("too promotional") over and over again for months if not years now. --Rose (talk) 06:37, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, to add to the above and respond to you saying "He has a tendency to spend a lot of time on frustratingly subjective points, but that's no grounds for admin action."; I disagree with that. His behavior forces other editors to dedicate a lot of their time just to try to make a case to him because otherwise he would (as the past has shown) make the same kind of unacceptable edits that would have to stay in the article. After days of multiple users proving something to him, as it was in the discussion about whether animals are treated as commodities, he may lay low but then he comes back and brings up the same subjects. This is the very definition of disruptive editing. --Rose (talk) 07:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately I think FourViolas, as usual, is exceptionally patient. Martin has a long history of strong views on green topics broadly construed, dating back years (see e.g. his global warming skepticism [44],[45],[46]) and several editors have mentioned his disruption on articles such as BP. He argues at tremendous length and frequently raises the same issue over and over. Notably, I have almost never seen him support his views with sources of any kind. To mention just one recent example pertinent to veganism, he attempted to present the fact that animals are commodities as a "vegan opinion" here, and then argued this at length at Talk:Veganism/Archive_10#Commodity_status_of_animals. Despite being offered high quality non-vegan sources showing that animals are regarded as commodities, including with the specific phrase "commodity status" which he insisted on, he maintained that there was something implicit in "commodity" which implied that animals are mistreated, or treated exactly the same as inanimate objects. As always, he never provided a source for the idea that the word has this connotation, or that this was intended. When an editor arrived who wanted the UK-based Vegan Society's definition, "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals", to be given priority in the lede, Martin endorsed this - blatantly contradicting his view that the lede should not contain vegan "opinions" as noted by SlimVirgin. He then suggested several sources which he presumably knew could not be used - several primary sources from other vegan societies [47] and a couple dictionary definitions [48] including a disparaging joke from Urban Dictionary. This is literally the only time I have ever witnessed him cite a reference for anything. And this is just one of many episodes - generally speaking, he argues at tremendous length without familiarizing himself with the topic or supporting his views. As in this comment where (in the course of dredging up another discussion which had gone on ad nauseam) he suggests that other editors "could find (an RS) somewhere to support what (my acquaintances) say", he does not seriously engage with the project, and makes never-ending demands on other editors' time. --Sammy1339 (talk) 07:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There isn't a competence or civility issue IMO. My interactions with Martin Hogbin are limited to articles involving veganism and I do not regard him as having a destructive influence on these articles, even in cases where I disagree with him (and there have been several occasions over the last couple of years). In regards to him removing the occupations from the image captions at List of vegans I actually disagreed with this action but I found it well-intentioned and he did not edit-war when challenged. Animal rights are an emotive issue at the best of times and there will always be regular disputes on these articles. I would be more concerned if these articles were exclusively edited by editors all of the same mindset. The example raised above about "whether animals are treated as commodities" is a good example of this: some editors—I being one of them—expressed some concerns about what we felt was "broad" language used to define "Veganism" in the lead of the article. Some editors may have disagreed with those concerns, or even consider then unfounded—and it's perfectly fine to adopt a different position in a debate—but ultimately disagreement is not disruption. Betty Logan (talk) 07:38, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's perfectly fine for sure but this isn't about him simply disagreeing with some editors. Pretty much all the editors that have made comments in the Final warning section on his page have different views within the so-called "green" subjects but currently nobody's trying to say they take it over the top and act in a manner that is very disruptive. --Rose (talk) 07:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problems are long-term and wide-ranging, not only to do with environmental issues. Martin arrives at articles about which he has strong views but no knowledge, and proceeds to equate his personal opinions with NPOV. He often appears not to have read the key sources even when someone else has typed up what they say; or he misinterprets them or suggests inappropriate sources and edits; and he misunderstands policy. This continues for months or even years. It stymies article development because editors spend so much time dealing with it, and people become unwilling to develop the article because new material will give him more ammunition.
    For an example, see Talk:Battle of Britain, where in June 2015 Martin wants to add some counterfactual history, [49] having already suggested it at great length in 2014. [50] See Trekphiler's responses, e.g. "More to the point, this has been already (fairly exhaustively) hashed out, yet Martin Hogbin refuses to let it die," and "Have you just ignored everything I've written on this subject?" and "the dead horse comes to life again." Those exchanges illustrate the problem well (WP:TENDENTIOUS, particularly WP:REHASH). Pinging Binksternet and Coretheapple, who I believe have also encountered it. SarahSV(talk) 08:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • My own interactions with Martin Hogbin have been limited to the Battle of Britain page. I can't say if it rises to the level of disruptive, but I sense a strong strain of refusal to acknowledge views other than his own. I'm not immune to strong views, nor really inclined to change them, so I appreciate it's not exactly easy; I get the sense it approaches willful ignorance, a "don't confuse me with evidence" attitude. That said, I should say I've seen his edits on other pages, & they don't seem contentious or controversial; it may be this only arises with "pet projects". That may be trouble enough... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 19:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Immediate action needed. I sincerely appreciate the opinion of FourViolas up above. Since he has rarely encountered Mr. Hogbin, I suspect his opinion is typical for those not familiar with the long-term problem. However, for those of us who are aware of this problem, particularly editors who focus on content building like SlimVirgin, it is frustrating that Mr. Hogbin has spent 57% of his contributions,[51] the majority of his long Wikipedia career, using talk pages to push unusual, often contradictory POV that keeps editors running around in circles wasting time. It is difficult to determine if he is consciously doing this on purpose or if there is something else at work. Although I have encountered him in many places, it was my experience with him on March Against Monsanto (especially on the talk page, likely archived now) that led me to believe we have a serious problem. I would like to first propose limits on his talk page interaction. For example, "Martin Hogbin is limited to one talk page comment per day per article." That would go a long way towards mitigating the immediate issue. Viriditas (talk) 19:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just saw the ping. I agree with Viriditas above in all respects, based upon experiences at Talk:BP. Coretheapple (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I worked with Martin on the BP article. He seems like a very nice person but as an editor he was the type that constantly made me feel like I wanted to tear my hair out. Same issues as discussed above. Gandydancer (talk) 16:37, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you still have some hair left Gandydancer. We have to accept that people may have fundamentally different opinions on a subject. The way to deal with that in WP is by civil discussion. I can assure you that I understand how frustrating it can be when someone else does not seem to understand what is perfectly obvious to you but there is never any need to resort to personal attacks, insults, or threats like some editors (not you) are doing here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Martin, the problem isn't that you have an opinion. The problem is that you are engaging in explicit civil POV pushing and ignoring talk page discussion by keeping a discussion open in perpetuity and constantly changing the framework of the discussion to allow it to continue indefinitely until you get your way. Viriditas (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't seen diffs of bad behavior on talk pages. I also don't understand people's wishes to limit other's participation on talk page of all the places. In addition I also don't understand accusations of POV pushing because whenever someone accuses of that I guarantee you they push their own POV all the time. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 14:47, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've encountered Martin Hogbin in a few places covering topics such as probability, mathematical physics, Midway, and a third opinion response. He devotes a lot of energy to his positions, but that can be good or bad. I agree with some of his positions, disagree with some others, and am out of my depth in still others. I don't see anything outrageous in the diffs above, and the talk page dialog does not appear disruptive. He can be pointed, intense, and demanding, but it takes two to tango on a talk page. If someone responds to Martin, then he will respond. If the other person stops responding, then Martin will stop responding. It might be annoying, but trying to revisit a topic 6 months later does not seem outrageous. Martin can be difficult and he can be wrong, but I don't see the behavior here being actionable. Glrx (talk) 04:02, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many months ago, I interacted with Martin Hogbin, around British articles. I found him to be quite pleasant & easy to collaborate with. GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Martin Hogbin

I am involved in a content dispute in the Veganism article with the editors who are making this unpleaseant personal attack on me. Unlike some here, who have resorted to persistent personal attacks, my contibutions there have conformed to the normal standards of discussion and will continue to do so. Through civil discussion we are now beginning to make some progress on that page. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The section where you said "now we seem to be working better together" and that you're now referring to didn't even involve any contributions by you. The only comment you made there was irrelevant and didn't lead to any progress in that regard whatsoever. --Rose (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that. It actually begged the suggestion that people were working better together because of your your lack of participation, rather than in spite of it... FortunaImperatrix Mundi 19:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I support the suggestion to begin with restricting/curtailing Martin Hogbin's article talk page privileges. It appears he has good intentions but his behavior is disruptive to the project. IjonTichy (talk) 04:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This now seems to have turned into a vendetta against me by every user that I have ever disgreed with. My editing and talk page comments are based on the fundamental principles that: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view, editors should treat each other with respect and civility, and that what we write in article should be supported by reliable sources rather than an expression of our personal opinions. I believe that disputes are better resolved by civil discussion than by edit warring, threats or personal attacks. That is what I am doing and it is what will continue to do. We either stick to the original principles of Wikipedia or we give in to mob rule. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, you have repeatedly and quite openly expressed a POV bordering on an agenda, and you've repeatedly misused the article talk page to push your agenda. By limiting your participation on article talk pages to one comment a day, we can begin to restore normalcy and consensus building. Viriditas (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"There has been considerable support for this article being a lipogram, not just from JJB. I think you should assume some good faith on his part. Just that he wants one thing and you want another is not a fair fair reason to assume bad faith on hos part. So, why should this article not be a lipogram? Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC) ". You kids are adorbs.Dan Murphy (talk) 04:56, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Identification of Cecil Rhodes as a "white supremacist" in opening sentence

IP 158.143.212.121 and I have been having a disagreement at Cecil Rhodes and Rhodes Scholarship. He thinks Rhodes should be identified in the opening sentence as a "white supremacist". I have opened a thread at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard and asked him to discuss rather than edit warring, but he has in my view chosen to continue in the former vein, repeatedly restoring the epithet in the opening sentence. I think administrator intervention is necessary to find a solution here. Cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 11:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree that referring to someone as a "white supremacist" in the leading paragraph of an article is an NPOV issue (especially if it's a BLP). Repeated restoration of edits such as this is not constructive, and the IP can be blocked on those grounds. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cecil Rhodes is a BLP??? EEng (talk) 14:31, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Noooooooo. This is just more of the activism related to the recent Rhodes controversies around the world. Clearly attempting to make the article as negative as possible. But since he has been dead for quite awhile, BLP isnt an issue. NPOV is the main issue. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Exactly. I was discussing the principle in general when I referenced BLPs - it obviously doesn't apply to this situation, as the article is not a BLP. The issue here is WP:NPOV - and that description absolutely does not conform to that policy. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 14:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently Mark Twain did not have a very high opinion. Although that source also claims that L. Ron Hubbard thought himself to be Rhodes' reincarnation. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that it doesn't belong in lede. It's well-established that Rhodes is known for being a strong advocate of Colonialism, which seems appropriate for the lede, but he's not a self-described "white supremacist" or primarily known as such. His views on race are certainly worth discussing in the article, though. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's completely fine; this can certainly be a section of the article (provided that it's done appropriately... lol ;-)) - but when you put those kinds of words in the lead paragraph (especially in the first sentence that describes who or what the article subject even is), it implies a very biased viewpoint. The adjective "white supremacist" (when describing a person) is very controversial and it puts the article out of the neutral zone if used to describe someone in your opening statement. This is the issue, and it is the primary cause of the focus in this ANI. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 11:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having it in the lede definitely violates NPOV and also UNDUE. All of the three citations provided thus far are from the past 10 months. I therefore don't think it merits being in the lede (or possibly even in the article at all). It seems like a recent flare-up. If there is nothing substantiating this characterization from the 20th century, this stuff should probably be relegated to something at the end of the article that mentions recent criticism (or omitted altogether). In the lede it has way too much weight (WP:UNDUE), which is not justified by a few items from merely the past year. (Not to mention the fact the lede is only for a summary of the major points discussed in the body text.) Softlavender (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is turning into something of a campaign, not necessarily involving a specific group of people but popping up anywhere the present real-world campaign against these figures is likely to touch. We've just been through a round of this on South of the Border (attraction), a South Carolina tourist trap with, shall we say, a decidedly dated Mexican shtick. Given the current attack on Woodrow Wilson's reputation I would expect the campaign to show up there as well. The problem I'm seeing in all of these is indeed WP:UNDUE: they are trying to make one category of objectionable opinions/acts the salient characteristic of the subject by shame-tagging them. Rhodes's racial views were objectionable, no doubt about it, but his colonialism is what is primary. Wilson's racism is secondary to his presidencies. SotB is a tacky ethnic caricature, but being offensive is not its point. Mangoe (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah one of the three citations is about Wilson (and only minutely about Rhodes). Softlavender (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • His weel known racist views should have the same weighting in the lead as they have in the body of the article. If there is a section on it in the article then a sentence in the lead seems warranted.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, there isn't one. Softlavender (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a section on his political views and the main content of that section is his racism. Indeed if there werent such a section it would have to be added, since his racist and imperialist views are widely written about and have characterized the subsequent political development of the region.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks to me like the lede already covers that in recap form. It also looks to me like Rhodes' attitudes and beliefs were no different from any other Englishperson or even Afrikaaner of his generation (or even later), at the height of the Empire. We don't vilify Rudyard Kipling, for instance, for having those beliefs. We can't apply 2015 judgments to Victorian people, which is exactly what is happening with these 2015 flare-ups. I'm not saying his attitudes were equitable, but they were in step with his time, and should not be labeled with 2015 terms by Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The point is phrasing, not content; as of the moment I looked at the article, the lead is fine without the inflammatory language and does not whitewash his views. Rhodes was a person who held beliefs we find objectionable today, but he was in many respects a man of his times with his belief in the "white man's burden". It is entirely appropriate to discuss his views and to have an appropriate summary of those views in the lead. However, a phrase such as "white supremacist" is a "loaded" polemic term of art that fits more appropriately on people of more recent times who hold assorted neo-nazi or KKK viewpoints. If you look at the ngram, the phrase was virtually unused until after WWII. Montanabw(talk) 19:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From a content side, this idea came up relatively recently when dealing with how a scene in Revenge of the Nerds should be presented in light of modern sensibilities, and that lead to refinement of Wikipedia:Presentism, which I believe should also be applied here. Modern-day critical takes on Rhodes should be a section in the article but if that wasn't the case during their life, it shouldn't be in the lede. --MASEM (t) 19:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If it's the reality then it can be stated plainly in the opening sentence or in the lede in general, if it's well supported by reliable sources. It is not necessarily a violation of NPOV to do so, as someone else said above. NPOV is about representing sources neutrally and with due weight. It does not prohibit stating a harsh truth plainly if that is supported by reliable sources. I also don't see any policy that is about not using modern-day takes to define an article's subject. If information later comes out that changes the general perception of a subject, then this is indeed used. For instance, Monsanto did knowingly sell PCBs long after they knew of their dangers, and they hid those dangers. That was in the 1960s and the 1970s. The knowledge of this came out in the year 2000 with a legal proceeding that revealed internal memos showing their culpability and knowledge at the time. This knowledge would be fair to use to define what happened in the 1960s and 1970s, with good sourcing. History is often revised with further knowledge and with further interpretation. In fact many people were white supremacists while they may not have explicitly called it that at the time. The degree to which that was a notable ideological principle in a person might be the measure of whether it should be a primary label for them. SageRad (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't want to take this discussion to far since it belongs somewhere else, I think there's an obvious difference between information about a historic situation (regardless of when that information became available) and modern intepretations of events and behaviour based not on new information but modern beliefs, values etc. To give a made up example, if someone finds a letter from some BC/BCE individual where this person calls for the elimination of race X via force, that would be new information. If someone says that person was calling for genocide, that would be to some extent a modern intepretation. This doesn't mean I'm saying we shouldn't include the information in the lead. (Actually I'm somewhat symphathetic to including the information in the lead here, although I do question whether it would make sense if we were talking about a BC/BCE individual. And to go back to my earlier example, I also support the current or a similar wording in the Genghis Khan article.) Rather all I'm saying is we should make a distinction between how our understanding of events change based on new facts or information that emerges of what was going on; how our understanding of events changes based on our modern day values, ethics, beliefs etc. Nil Einne (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, i do agree with this distinction very much, and i hold that both are valid. The link to WP:PRESENTISM above is interesting, though it's an essay and not a policy or guideline, so it's not required to be followed in toto. SageRad (talk) 11:36, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

David Bain

There is an on-going battle over details of content which should be on the David Bain page. This has now been going on for some weeks. Although there have been a number of editors involved, the one who has been the most disruptive is Mr Maggoo. Others who have been constructive are Akldguy, Moriori and Gadfium.

Mr Maggoo is the self published author of a book titled The Bain Killings Whodunnit? written under the pseudonym Michael Sharp. He outed himself in correspondence with Akld guy here. He seems to have very strong opinions that David Bain is guilty of the murders for which he has been acquitted. Although there has been much discussion on the David Bain talk page about the various issues, Mr Maggoo has shown himself to be incapable of "hearing" what other editors are saying. In response, he has often taken a hostile approach when communicating on the talk page. He frequently adds or deletes material without giving a reason on the main page and his justifications on the Talk page make little sense. There are so many examples of his disruptive behaviour, it is hard to know where to begin. Turtletop (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that when I edit the David Bain Wikipedia page citing reliable sources such as newspaper articles and books [not my own] Turtletop deletes them. Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the problem. Maggoo has a history of quoting unreliable sources, especially the David Bain:Counterspin website. He also repeatedly tries to add material from a lawyer who has been disbarred for lying. Even when he does quote a reliable source, he seems to have little understanding of whether the information he wishes to include is relevant. His edits all support the view that David Bain is guilty even though the privy Council declared a miscarriage of justice and his convictions have been overturned. Turtletop (talk) 22:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The David Bain article has had ongoing disputes mostly between SPA accounts for some time. A sockpuppet investigation on some of the accounts found them to be unrelated. I semi-protected the article to prevent new SPAs getting involved, and have tried to keep all parties discussing on the talk page.-gadfium 22:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The David Bain murder case has been highly controversial in New Zealand. Mr Maggoo is a novice editor who began editing on 11 December 2015, and has edited nothing but DB-related pages since. He became frustrated at being asked to provide reliable sources and indent his posts correctly. He initially ignored advice that he was not permitted to cite from his own work or from a highly NPOV website, Counterspin. Nevertheless, he has learned much, albeit slowly. He is now competently adding information to the DB article which the OP objects to. This is essentially a content dispute and I note that the OP has not asked for any particular action here. Akld guy (talk) 22:44, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is partly a content dispute. But it is also about Mr Magoo's attitude and disruptive editing. Some of the edits he says he will make on the talk page are reflective of taking revenge rather than being constructive. I would like to see Mr Maggoo blocked from editing OR the page completely protected from editing by anyone except administrators. Turtletop (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You yourself removed highly relevant material that was correctly cited and pertained to the alleged pregnancy or childbirth of one of the victims. You did that, despite knowing that your removal of it would be controversial. Mr Maggoo should absolutely not be blocked. He has learned much and has now become a threat to the NPOV editing of the page by Turtletop. Both Mr Maggoo and Turtletop have edited contentiously, but there has been no bad behaviour, insults, or abuse that would justify a block on either, and certainly not on Mr Maggoo. Akld guy (talk) 23:28, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Mr Maggoo made an edit about you in which he told you to stop being a girl. You have also seem to have allied yourself with Mr Maggoo by reposting a link to his self-published book and made insulting comments to Moriori accusing him of a conflict of interst with no evidence whatsoever. You have also made insulting comments about David Bain's sister in this post: "Laniet told so many people so many stories about pregnancy, childbirth, or abortion, that she must have been a flake. And if she was a flake on that score, she may have been a flake on her father's alleged illicit relationship with her. That is why Turtletop does not want the evidence of NEVER PREGNANT by the pathologist and hospital records, because it PROVES she was a flake and therefore tends to discredit the incest claim. The pathologist and hospital reports should be in the article. There is no reason to keep them out except censorship. Akld guy (talk) 01:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)"
Your neutrality and your personal judgement are highly questionable. Turtletop (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Akld guy has played a valuable role in mediating between the conflicting parties.-gadfium 00:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He has also contributed to the conflict and has started his own one with Moriori.Turtletop (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Don't make this about me. I have not aligned myself with Mr Maggoo. I came down on him hard in his early edits for not sourcing appropriately, and reverted many of them, but now that he has learned, he is posting material that you don't want in the article. I believe that some of that material he's adding should justifiably be in it. I did not accuse Moriori of having a conflict of interest, but asked him whether he had one, asking for a yes/no, not his identity. I note that he has not yet answered the question despite the elapse of more than two hours, prior to which he was active on the Talk page. He has to be given time to answer of course. Akld guy (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asking is equivalent to accusing. Why did you ask/accuse him in the first place? You appear to have done this to divert attention away from your posting of a link to Mr Maggoo's COI self-published book. Turtletop (talk) 00:28, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Gadfium, he may have played a mediation role, but he undid that with other behaviour, and I am quite surprised you didn't give him a little nudge for his insults to me. At the Bain talk page I have left the following reply to his latest insult -- "You continue with offensive insult. The Wikipedia article you have edited the most is David Bain with 58 edits and 100 to its talk page. I have made 4 edits to David Bain and 14 to the talk page. You = 158. Me = 18. I have edited more than 7,000 unique Wikipedia articles so I guess to you that suggests obvious COI." Moriori (talk) 00:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't make this about me. The question asked by the OP was to the effect, "should Mr Maggoo be blocked?" Akld guy (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also suggested that a total block could be put on the page. It's about all of us - and you seem to be avoiding taking any responsibility for your offensive behaviour towards other editors. If you don't want it to be about you, then I suggest you withdraw your insults to Moriori and apologise.
It would also help if you stopped accusing me of not being neutral. Bain was found not guilty and my contributions generally support that outcome. When you and Mr Maggoo add material which undermines that reality, you are not being neutral - and that's what leads to the content dispute. Turtletop (talk) 01:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The question asked by the OP was to the effect, "should Mr Maggoo be blocked?" Akld guy (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Akld guy (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to reply to a number of false allegations made about me by Turtletop. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First he accuses me of citing the Counterspin website. I have not cited the Counterspin website. I asked if I could cite the Counterspin website as a reference and was told I could not. Turtletop himself has cited the Counterspin website. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Second he accuses me repeatedly trying to add material from a lawyer who has been disbarred. This is not correct. When I first started editing on Wikipedia I set up a paragraph heading Response by Michael Guest. At that time I wasn't aware I had to cite a source. That paragraph was removed for that reason. I then asked if I could cite two different sources as a reference and was told that neither of those sources were reliable. I have not been able to find a reliable source I can site re that paragraph, so I have not tried to set it up again. Once is not repeatedly. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Third, he says all my edits support the view that David Bain is guilty. I resent that insinuation. I just find an article pertaining to the subject and cite it. I could just as easily say that all Turtletops edits support the view that David Bain is innocent. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fourthly, he says I have little understanding as to whether the information I am including is relevant. Let me assure Turtletop that I have no problem deciding what is relevant and what is not. And might I add I always endeavour to quote verbatim from the article I am citing. For example I don't say "some academics" when the article cited only refers to one academic. Turtletop would have us believe that a number of academics support the suggestion made by Justice Binnie that the Government was "shopping around" . From what I have read one law professor supports Binnie and three law professors disagree with that suggestion. [User:Mr Maggoo Mr Maggoo]] (talk) 02:08, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This post is directed to Turtletop You are definitely not neutral. You are trying to keep the insinuation that Laniet may have been pregnant/given birth/aborted as a result of incest by her father, despite the fact that not one witness has ever stepped forward to say that they saw Laniet with a baby, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet had given birth, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet had had an abortion, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet gave away a baby for adoption. In short, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a pregnancy/baby/abortion. Mr Maggoo and I are attempting to corroborate that with highly relevant pathology and hospital record material that shows that there was almost certainly never any pregnancy. You have on several occasions disruptively attempted to censor that pathology and medical material from the article. Akld guy (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Edited Akld guy (talk) 02:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly anyone KNEW anything about this case. That’s why it has been controversial for 20 years. And of course there are no witnesses who KNEW Robin Bain raped Laniet or committed incest with her. But multiple witnesses testified that Laniet told them her father was sexually abusing her. On that basis the Privy Council obviously concluded that where there is smoke (and there was a lot of it), there may well be fire - so they declared there had been a miscarriage of justice. If you still think you need to include material that you think proves she wasn’t pregnant, can I suggest you read the following. Under the heading Due and undue weight, WP says:
“While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence”… “Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects”.
If you insist on including testimony that Laniet was NOT pregnant, you are giving undue weight to a minority aspect which was of no relevance to the Privy Council or to the jury at the retrial. The topic is David Bain (and perhaps whether or not he is guilty). Whether or not Laniet was pregnant is not the topic.Turtletop (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not Laniet was pregnant is germane to two issues: 1. that she was pregnant to her father, which you are trying to insinuate is a motive for him killing the members of his family, 2. the issue of Laniet's credibility, since if she was given to fantasies about a pregnancy/childbirth/abortion/white baby versus black baby, then there exists the possibility that the alleged incest with her father was also a fantasy. You are trying to censor from the article medical evidence that refutes a pregnancy because it counters your insinuation that there was a pregnancy/baby. Akld guy (talk) 06:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Laniet's credibility is not the topic. David Bain's is - or was. Your allegation of censorship is offensive. I don't control anything on WP so I can't possibly censor it. Please use more moderate language. Your allegation that I am insinuating that Laniet was pregnant to her father is also offensive. You have now said this a number of times. I have never said any such thing and your insinuations are a breach of WP:assume good faith
You have refused to apologise to Moriori over your insinuation that he had a COI so I don't expect you will apologize to me for your behaviour either. It would go a long way towards resolving this if you did. Turtletop (talk) 07:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of trying to communicate with other editors via edit summaries - would you consider using the talkpage first, and holding off on reverting other editors as an absolute last resort? SQLQuery me! 07:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Already tried the Talk page. It didn't work. Turtletop (talk) 09:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am still trying to master the correct procedure when using Wikipedia. Could I just say in my defence [ though age is no excuse] that it is hard for an old dog to learn new tricks specially when that old dog is in his eighties. Mr Maggoo (talk) 02:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any of us come out of this scrap looking good. I ask that some uninvolved people add the article to their watchlists, and crack down on any poor behaviour.-gadfium 04:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest cross-posting this to the BLP noticeboard. They generally have zero tolerance towards this sort of thing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Page is protected for 2 days. Will escalate protection, or issue blocks if the warring continues. SQLQuery me! 23:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mrss.shourie

Persistent copyright violations. Bazj (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For reference: Mrss.shourie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).
I just deleted one article that seemed to be a direct copy of one of the linked references. So the concern is a valid one, at least on that front. The user's deleted contributions indicate that this is not their first deleted article - others were deleted in early November 2015. They said, in their edit summary, that they were basing it on references - perhaps there is a language issue at play that prevents them from understanding the issue? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Basque&Roll- 79.167.164.4 Vandal and sockpuppeteer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

check YMerger complete. --QEDK (T 📖 C)

He made several ip disruptive edits (as 79.167.164.4) in Olympiacos B.C.. They were reverted by Jim1138 and myself. As soon as the page was protected, he returned today with the exact same edit he made as ip user (vandalism - POV edit in a matter already discussed and explained over and over again in the past), this time as Basque&Roll. There is a high posibility that he uses even more ips. I made a report for Checkuser here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Basque&Roll, but he keeps vandalizing (see Olympiacos B.C.). At first he vandalizes as ip user, then the page was protected, now he keeps on as Basque&Roll. It's obvious that he has some kind of fixation and as soon as the page was unprotected (after a six-month protection) on 25 December 2015, he came back with the same old story. It's the same drill. I don't want to revert yet again because I'll violate 3RR. I defer to the admins. Gtrbolivar (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the proof (beyond any shadow of doubt) that he is the same person (ip and account): [52] and after the page gets protection: [53]. Gtrbolivar (talk) 16:13, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello admins. I made these two reports: Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Olympiacos B.C. and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:79.167.164.4 reported by User:Gtrbolivar (Result: ) many hours ago, and there hasn't been any development so far, so I decided to ask your help through this page. Thank you for your immediate attention. Gtrbolivar (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please read MULTI. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 16:38, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attitude issues at Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

The video game Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain was the topic of some contoversy, namely the depiction of the character Quiet (see Metal Gear Solid: The Phantom Pain#Sexualized portrayal of Quiet). Over the last couple of months, this issue has been discussed repeatedly on the talk page. One particular IP editor (I'm assuming it is one person) is determinated to have as little of the controversy mentioned, and is convinced that who doesn't agree with them is wrong. The article itself is one thing, but this anonymous editor will not listen to reason, or just walk away. This has come to a point where this has to stop.

A message from October 6 reads: "I'm not going to be the one to make more edits at this point, but it's painfully clear people are trying to own the page". Untrue and accusatory, but not particularly a terrible attitude. After a while, they're back on January 8, starting off their new message with "Please put how you feel about it or any emotion you may have about the topic aside when you read the following points". Okay, sounds good. "There are sources and information here that talk about the PlayArtsKai figurine of Quiet. Are you out of your mind?! What relevance does this have to the RECEPTION OF THE GAME???" Taking a bit of a turn there. "To any senior editors, administrators, or anyone with an interest in Wikipedia standards. It should be extremely concerning that this level of bias is present in an article that is supposed to be by and large, factual." Extremely concerning? Oh boy.

Well, from that moment on, things got worse. On January 12 there were two messages. The first: "They're just feigning ignorance so they can use wikipedia as a soapbox or personal blog, just like creationsist or other opinion-based groups would. They want this slander to be visible in the table of contents, obviously". Later that day: "You aren't interested in presenting facts, you're interested in putting forward a particular kind of opinion. One that states that EVERYTHING is sexist/sexualized, because you folks obsess over this kind of stuff for no other reason than to be as obnoxious and supremacist as you can".

Today came another post: "Everything is sexist to them, it seems. Really every single thing. They can't even think of a world where something isn't sexist. Therefore, they have no endgame, no solution. The only thing they do is go around and troll/declare everything to be sexist."

All the while, experienced editors like @Peter Isotalo:, @Prisonermonkeys:, @Czar: and myself have pointed towards Wikipedia's guidelines on notability, on balanced articles, you name it. Today, @Sergecross73: had to semiprotect the article again, because they will not stop. --Soetermans. T / C 14:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Hogbin

Martin Hogbin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

The user consistently makes disruptive edits and his contribution to Wikipedia on the talk pages of the applicable articles is normally nothing constructive but him unreasonably claiming everything is too promotional. If you search for the word "promotional" within his edits, you'll see a large amount of those cases. One of the last incidents involved him trying to completely remove the occupations of those on the list of vegans, where his actions had already led to a large portion of the useful information being removed, such as the band names for musicians that aren't known for their solo work.
He has been warned yet continued to make numerous disruptive edits ([54][55][56]). Not only that, but he appears to be extremely biased when it comes to editing articles about animal rights and such, which falls under the definition of "Bias-based" from WP:COMPETENCE. An admin already put a link to that page on Martin's talk page. --Rose (talk) 04:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
[reply]

Even after I started this discussion and Martin was made aware of it, he continued being disruptive and made an edit asking to "find [him] some reliable sources" to support the commodity status of animals. As Sammy mentions below, this subject was discussed at length and put to rest back in June-July and Martin was among the people involved; as SarahSV summarized back then: "Martin, you've been offered sources, from the United Nations to commodity markets to academic sources, including several in the article. The onus is on you now to provide sources to support what you're saying.". The bottom line is that this is exactly the pattern of his behavior that almost everyone talked about below. --Rose (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nothing actionable here My interactions with Martin may be found primarily at Talk:Carnism (where I was usually agreeing with him) and Talk:Veganism (where I sometimes was). He is not exceptionally good at building consensus in controversial areas, but I don't think there's any fair case to be made that he edits in bad faith. He is consistently civil, even when others are less so (e.g. User talk:Martin Hogbin#Final warning). His contributions are almost always from the same POV, "disagreeing with editors who are promoting a green political agenda" [57], but they are generally reasonable. He has a tendency to spend a lot of time on frustratingly subjective points (are livestock "commodities"?, etc), but that's no grounds for admin action.
Do I think it would usually be easier to reach consensus without his input? Regrettably, yes. Does that imply the articles would be better without him? Not at all. FourViolas (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to mention that at one point he expressed the view that there should be no positive information about veganism in that article. That was the definition of neutrality to him. Just because some of his (reverted) edits lead to people paying more attention to some sentences doesn't mean that he's the reason it happens. It's just like some inexperienced vandal putting insults on a page about someone, another user reverting those yet noticing some other issues while doing so and making changes to improve the article. Should we thank the vandal for that and take no action? I don't think so. The problem with Martin is even worse as he's not new here so he deliberately makes those disruptive edits and starts practically pointless conversations repeating the same words ("too promotional") over and over again for months if not years now. --Rose (talk) 06:37, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, to add to the above and respond to you saying "He has a tendency to spend a lot of time on frustratingly subjective points, but that's no grounds for admin action."; I disagree with that. His behavior forces other editors to dedicate a lot of their time just to try to make a case to him because otherwise he would (as the past has shown) make the same kind of unacceptable edits that would have to stay in the article. After days of multiple users proving something to him, as it was in the discussion about whether animals are treated as commodities, he may lay low but then he comes back and brings up the same subjects. This is the very definition of disruptive editing. --Rose (talk) 07:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately I think FourViolas, as usual, is exceptionally patient. Martin has a long history of strong views on green topics broadly construed, dating back years (see e.g. his global warming skepticism [58],[59],[60]) and several editors have mentioned his disruption on articles such as BP. He argues at tremendous length and frequently raises the same issue over and over. Notably, I have almost never seen him support his views with sources of any kind. To mention just one recent example pertinent to veganism, he attempted to present the fact that animals are commodities as a "vegan opinion" here, and then argued this at length at Talk:Veganism/Archive_10#Commodity_status_of_animals. Despite being offered high quality non-vegan sources showing that animals are regarded as commodities, including with the specific phrase "commodity status" which he insisted on, he maintained that there was something implicit in "commodity" which implied that animals are mistreated, or treated exactly the same as inanimate objects. As always, he never provided a source for the idea that the word has this connotation, or that this was intended. When an editor arrived who wanted the UK-based Vegan Society's definition, "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals", to be given priority in the lede, Martin endorsed this - blatantly contradicting his view that the lede should not contain vegan "opinions" as noted by SlimVirgin. He then suggested several sources which he presumably knew could not be used - several primary sources from other vegan societies [61] and a couple dictionary definitions [62] including a disparaging joke from Urban Dictionary. This is literally the only time I have ever witnessed him cite a reference for anything. And this is just one of many episodes - generally speaking, he argues at tremendous length without familiarizing himself with the topic or supporting his views. As in this comment where (in the course of dredging up another discussion which had gone on ad nauseam) he suggests that other editors "could find (an RS) somewhere to support what (my acquaintances) say", he does not seriously engage with the project, and makes never-ending demands on other editors' time. --Sammy1339 (talk) 07:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There isn't a competence or civility issue IMO. My interactions with Martin Hogbin are limited to articles involving veganism and I do not regard him as having a destructive influence on these articles, even in cases where I disagree with him (and there have been several occasions over the last couple of years). In regards to him removing the occupations from the image captions at List of vegans I actually disagreed with this action but I found it well-intentioned and he did not edit-war when challenged. Animal rights are an emotive issue at the best of times and there will always be regular disputes on these articles. I would be more concerned if these articles were exclusively edited by editors all of the same mindset. The example raised above about "whether animals are treated as commodities" is a good example of this: some editors—I being one of them—expressed some concerns about what we felt was "broad" language used to define "Veganism" in the lead of the article. Some editors may have disagreed with those concerns, or even consider then unfounded—and it's perfectly fine to adopt a different position in a debate—but ultimately disagreement is not disruption. Betty Logan (talk) 07:38, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's perfectly fine for sure but this isn't about him simply disagreeing with some editors. Pretty much all the editors that have made comments in the Final warning section on his page have different views within the so-called "green" subjects but currently nobody's trying to say they take it over the top and act in a manner that is very disruptive. --Rose (talk) 07:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problems are long-term and wide-ranging, not only to do with environmental issues. Martin arrives at articles about which he has strong views but no knowledge, and proceeds to equate his personal opinions with NPOV. He often appears not to have read the key sources even when someone else has typed up what they say; or he misinterprets them or suggests inappropriate sources and edits; and he misunderstands policy. This continues for months or even years. It stymies article development because editors spend so much time dealing with it, and people become unwilling to develop the article because new material will give him more ammunition.
    For an example, see Talk:Battle of Britain, where in June 2015 Martin wants to add some counterfactual history, [63] having already suggested it at great length in 2014. [64] See Trekphiler's responses, e.g. "More to the point, this has been already (fairly exhaustively) hashed out, yet Martin Hogbin refuses to let it die," and "Have you just ignored everything I've written on this subject?" and "the dead horse comes to life again." Those exchanges illustrate the problem well (WP:TENDENTIOUS, particularly WP:REHASH). Pinging Binksternet and Coretheapple, who I believe have also encountered it. SarahSV(talk) 08:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • My own interactions with Martin Hogbin have been limited to the Battle of Britain page. I can't say if it rises to the level of disruptive, but I sense a strong strain of refusal to acknowledge views other than his own. I'm not immune to strong views, nor really inclined to change them, so I appreciate it's not exactly easy; I get the sense it approaches willful ignorance, a "don't confuse me with evidence" attitude. That said, I should say I've seen his edits on other pages, & they don't seem contentious or controversial; it may be this only arises with "pet projects". That may be trouble enough... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 19:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Immediate action needed. I sincerely appreciate the opinion of FourViolas up above. Since he has rarely encountered Mr. Hogbin, I suspect his opinion is typical for those not familiar with the long-term problem. However, for those of us who are aware of this problem, particularly editors who focus on content building like SlimVirgin, it is frustrating that Mr. Hogbin has spent 57% of his contributions,[65] the majority of his long Wikipedia career, using talk pages to push unusual, often contradictory POV that keeps editors running around in circles wasting time. It is difficult to determine if he is consciously doing this on purpose or if there is something else at work. Although I have encountered him in many places, it was my experience with him on March Against Monsanto (especially on the talk page, likely archived now) that led me to believe we have a serious problem. I would like to first propose limits on his talk page interaction. For example, "Martin Hogbin is limited to one talk page comment per day per article." That would go a long way towards mitigating the immediate issue. Viriditas (talk) 19:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just saw the ping. I agree with Viriditas above in all respects, based upon experiences at Talk:BP. Coretheapple (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I worked with Martin on the BP article. He seems like a very nice person but as an editor he was the type that constantly made me feel like I wanted to tear my hair out. Same issues as discussed above. Gandydancer (talk) 16:37, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you still have some hair left Gandydancer. We have to accept that people may have fundamentally different opinions on a subject. The way to deal with that in WP is by civil discussion. I can assure you that I understand how frustrating it can be when someone else does not seem to understand what is perfectly obvious to you but there is never any need to resort to personal attacks, insults, or threats like some editors (not you) are doing here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Martin, the problem isn't that you have an opinion. The problem is that you are engaging in explicit civil POV pushing and ignoring talk page discussion by keeping a discussion open in perpetuity and constantly changing the framework of the discussion to allow it to continue indefinitely until you get your way. Viriditas (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't seen diffs of bad behavior on talk pages. I also don't understand people's wishes to limit other's participation on talk page of all the places. In addition I also don't understand accusations of POV pushing because whenever someone accuses of that I guarantee you they push their own POV all the time. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 14:47, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've encountered Martin Hogbin in a few places covering topics such as probability, mathematical physics, Midway, and a third opinion response. He devotes a lot of energy to his positions, but that can be good or bad. I agree with some of his positions, disagree with some others, and am out of my depth in still others. I don't see anything outrageous in the diffs above, and the talk page dialog does not appear disruptive. He can be pointed, intense, and demanding, but it takes two to tango on a talk page. If someone responds to Martin, then he will respond. If the other person stops responding, then Martin will stop responding. It might be annoying, but trying to revisit a topic 6 months later does not seem outrageous. Martin can be difficult and he can be wrong, but I don't see the behavior here being actionable. Glrx (talk) 04:02, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many months ago, I interacted with Martin Hogbin, around British articles. I found him to be quite pleasant & easy to collaborate with. GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Martin Hogbin

I am involved in a content dispute in the Veganism article with the editors who are making this unpleaseant personal attack on me. Unlike some here, who have resorted to persistent personal attacks, my contibutions there have conformed to the normal standards of discussion and will continue to do so. Through civil discussion we are now beginning to make some progress on that page. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The section where you said "now we seem to be working better together" and that you're now referring to didn't even involve any contributions by you. The only comment you made there was irrelevant and didn't lead to any progress in that regard whatsoever. --Rose (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that. It actually begged the suggestion that people were working better together because of your your lack of participation, rather than in spite of it... FortunaImperatrix Mundi 19:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I support the suggestion to begin with restricting/curtailing Martin Hogbin's article talk page privileges. It appears he has good intentions but his behavior is disruptive to the project. IjonTichy (talk) 04:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This now seems to have turned into a vendetta against me by every user that I have ever disgreed with. My editing and talk page comments are based on the fundamental principles that: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view, editors should treat each other with respect and civility, and that what we write in article should be supported by reliable sources rather than an expression of our personal opinions. I believe that disputes are better resolved by civil discussion than by edit warring, threats or personal attacks. That is what I am doing and it is what will continue to do. We either stick to the original principles of Wikipedia or we give in to mob rule. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, you have repeatedly and quite openly expressed a POV bordering on an agenda, and you've repeatedly misused the article talk page to push your agenda. By limiting your participation on article talk pages to one comment a day, we can begin to restore normalcy and consensus building. Viriditas (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"There has been considerable support for this article being a lipogram, not just from JJB. I think you should assume some good faith on his part. Just that he wants one thing and you want another is not a fair fair reason to assume bad faith on hos part. So, why should this article not be a lipogram? Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC) ". You kids are adorbs.Dan Murphy (talk) 04:56, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Identification of Cecil Rhodes as a "white supremacist" in opening sentence

IP 158.143.212.121 and I have been having a disagreement at Cecil Rhodes and Rhodes Scholarship. He thinks Rhodes should be identified in the opening sentence as a "white supremacist". I have opened a thread at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard and asked him to discuss rather than edit warring, but he has in my view chosen to continue in the former vein, repeatedly restoring the epithet in the opening sentence. I think administrator intervention is necessary to find a solution here. Cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 11:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree that referring to someone as a "white supremacist" in the leading paragraph of an article is an NPOV issue (especially if it's a BLP). Repeated restoration of edits such as this is not constructive, and the IP can be blocked on those grounds. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cecil Rhodes is a BLP??? EEng (talk) 14:31, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Noooooooo. This is just more of the activism related to the recent Rhodes controversies around the world. Clearly attempting to make the article as negative as possible. But since he has been dead for quite awhile, BLP isnt an issue. NPOV is the main issue. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Exactly. I was discussing the principle in general when I referenced BLPs - it obviously doesn't apply to this situation, as the article is not a BLP. The issue here is WP:NPOV - and that description absolutely does not conform to that policy. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 14:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently Mark Twain did not have a very high opinion. Although that source also claims that L. Ron Hubbard thought himself to be Rhodes' reincarnation. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that it doesn't belong in lede. It's well-established that Rhodes is known for being a strong advocate of Colonialism, which seems appropriate for the lede, but he's not a self-described "white supremacist" or primarily known as such. His views on race are certainly worth discussing in the article, though. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's completely fine; this can certainly be a section of the article (provided that it's done appropriately... lol ;-)) - but when you put those kinds of words in the lead paragraph (especially in the first sentence that describes who or what the article subject even is), it implies a very biased viewpoint. The adjective "white supremacist" (when describing a person) is very controversial and it puts the article out of the neutral zone if used to describe someone in your opening statement. This is the issue, and it is the primary cause of the focus in this ANI. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 11:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having it in the lede definitely violates NPOV and also UNDUE. All of the three citations provided thus far are from the past 10 months. I therefore don't think it merits being in the lede (or possibly even in the article at all). It seems like a recent flare-up. If there is nothing substantiating this characterization from the 20th century, this stuff should probably be relegated to something at the end of the article that mentions recent criticism (or omitted altogether). In the lede it has way too much weight (WP:UNDUE), which is not justified by a few items from merely the past year. (Not to mention the fact the lede is only for a summary of the major points discussed in the body text.) Softlavender (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is turning into something of a campaign, not necessarily involving a specific group of people but popping up anywhere the present real-world campaign against these figures is likely to touch. We've just been through a round of this on South of the Border (attraction), a South Carolina tourist trap with, shall we say, a decidedly dated Mexican shtick. Given the current attack on Woodrow Wilson's reputation I would expect the campaign to show up there as well. The problem I'm seeing in all of these is indeed WP:UNDUE: they are trying to make one category of objectionable opinions/acts the salient characteristic of the subject by shame-tagging them. Rhodes's racial views were objectionable, no doubt about it, but his colonialism is what is primary. Wilson's racism is secondary to his presidencies. SotB is a tacky ethnic caricature, but being offensive is not its point. Mangoe (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah one of the three citations is about Wilson (and only minutely about Rhodes). Softlavender (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • His weel known racist views should have the same weighting in the lead as they have in the body of the article. If there is a section on it in the article then a sentence in the lead seems warranted.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, there isn't one. Softlavender (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a section on his political views and the main content of that section is his racism. Indeed if there werent such a section it would have to be added, since his racist and imperialist views are widely written about and have characterized the subsequent political development of the region.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks to me like the lede already covers that in recap form. It also looks to me like Rhodes' attitudes and beliefs were no different from any other Englishperson or even Afrikaaner of his generation (or even later), at the height of the Empire. We don't vilify Rudyard Kipling, for instance, for having those beliefs. We can't apply 2015 judgments to Victorian people, which is exactly what is happening with these 2015 flare-ups. I'm not saying his attitudes were equitable, but they were in step with his time, and should not be labeled with 2015 terms by Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The point is phrasing, not content; as of the moment I looked at the article, the lead is fine without the inflammatory language and does not whitewash his views. Rhodes was a person who held beliefs we find objectionable today, but he was in many respects a man of his times with his belief in the "white man's burden". It is entirely appropriate to discuss his views and to have an appropriate summary of those views in the lead. However, a phrase such as "white supremacist" is a "loaded" polemic term of art that fits more appropriately on people of more recent times who hold assorted neo-nazi or KKK viewpoints. If you look at the ngram, the phrase was virtually unused until after WWII. Montanabw(talk) 19:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From a content side, this idea came up relatively recently when dealing with how a scene in Revenge of the Nerds should be presented in light of modern sensibilities, and that lead to refinement of Wikipedia:Presentism, which I believe should also be applied here. Modern-day critical takes on Rhodes should be a section in the article but if that wasn't the case during their life, it shouldn't be in the lede. --MASEM (t) 19:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If it's the reality then it can be stated plainly in the opening sentence or in the lede in general, if it's well supported by reliable sources. It is not necessarily a violation of NPOV to do so, as someone else said above. NPOV is about representing sources neutrally and with due weight. It does not prohibit stating a harsh truth plainly if that is supported by reliable sources. I also don't see any policy that is about not using modern-day takes to define an article's subject. If information later comes out that changes the general perception of a subject, then this is indeed used. For instance, Monsanto did knowingly sell PCBs long after they knew of their dangers, and they hid those dangers. That was in the 1960s and the 1970s. The knowledge of this came out in the year 2000 with a legal proceeding that revealed internal memos showing their culpability and knowledge at the time. This knowledge would be fair to use to define what happened in the 1960s and 1970s, with good sourcing. History is often revised with further knowledge and with further interpretation. In fact many people were white supremacists while they may not have explicitly called it that at the time. The degree to which that was a notable ideological principle in a person might be the measure of whether it should be a primary label for them. SageRad (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't want to take this discussion to far since it belongs somewhere else, I think there's an obvious difference between information about a historic situation (regardless of when that information became available) and modern intepretations of events and behaviour based not on new information but modern beliefs, values etc. To give a made up example, if someone finds a letter from some BC/BCE individual where this person calls for the elimination of race X via force, that would be new information. If someone says that person was calling for genocide, that would be to some extent a modern intepretation. This doesn't mean I'm saying we shouldn't include the information in the lead. (Actually I'm somewhat symphathetic to including the information in the lead here, although I do question whether it would make sense if we were talking about a BC/BCE individual. And to go back to my earlier example, I also support the current or a similar wording in the Genghis Khan article.) Rather all I'm saying is we should make a distinction between how our understanding of events change based on new facts or information that emerges of what was going on; how our understanding of events changes based on our modern day values, ethics, beliefs etc. Nil Einne (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, i do agree with this distinction very much, and i hold that both are valid. The link to WP:PRESENTISM above is interesting, though it's an essay and not a policy or guideline, so it's not required to be followed in toto. SageRad (talk) 11:36, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

David Bain

There is an on-going battle over details of content which should be on the David Bain page. This has now been going on for some weeks. Although there have been a number of editors involved, the one who has been the most disruptive is Mr Maggoo. Others who have been constructive are Akldguy, Moriori and Gadfium.

Mr Maggoo is the self published author of a book titled The Bain Killings Whodunnit? written under the pseudonym Michael Sharp. He outed himself in correspondence with Akld guy here. He seems to have very strong opinions that David Bain is guilty of the murders for which he has been acquitted. Although there has been much discussion on the David Bain talk page about the various issues, Mr Maggoo has shown himself to be incapable of "hearing" what other editors are saying. In response, he has often taken a hostile approach when communicating on the talk page. He frequently adds or deletes material without giving a reason on the main page and his justifications on the Talk page make little sense. There are so many examples of his disruptive behaviour, it is hard to know where to begin. Turtletop (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that when I edit the David Bain Wikipedia page citing reliable sources such as newspaper articles and books [not my own] Turtletop deletes them. Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the problem. Maggoo has a history of quoting unreliable sources, especially the David Bain:Counterspin website. He also repeatedly tries to add material from a lawyer who has been disbarred for lying. Even when he does quote a reliable source, he seems to have little understanding of whether the information he wishes to include is relevant. His edits all support the view that David Bain is guilty even though the privy Council declared a miscarriage of justice and his convictions have been overturned. Turtletop (talk) 22:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The David Bain article has had ongoing disputes mostly between SPA accounts for some time. A sockpuppet investigation on some of the accounts found them to be unrelated. I semi-protected the article to prevent new SPAs getting involved, and have tried to keep all parties discussing on the talk page.-gadfium 22:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The David Bain murder case has been highly controversial in New Zealand. Mr Maggoo is a novice editor who began editing on 11 December 2015, and has edited nothing but DB-related pages since. He became frustrated at being asked to provide reliable sources and indent his posts correctly. He initially ignored advice that he was not permitted to cite from his own work or from a highly NPOV website, Counterspin. Nevertheless, he has learned much, albeit slowly. He is now competently adding information to the DB article which the OP objects to. This is essentially a content dispute and I note that the OP has not asked for any particular action here. Akld guy (talk) 22:44, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is partly a content dispute. But it is also about Mr Magoo's attitude and disruptive editing. Some of the edits he says he will make on the talk page are reflective of taking revenge rather than being constructive. I would like to see Mr Maggoo blocked from editing OR the page completely protected from editing by anyone except administrators. Turtletop (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You yourself removed highly relevant material that was correctly cited and pertained to the alleged pregnancy or childbirth of one of the victims. You did that, despite knowing that your removal of it would be controversial. Mr Maggoo should absolutely not be blocked. He has learned much and has now become a threat to the NPOV editing of the page by Turtletop. Both Mr Maggoo and Turtletop have edited contentiously, but there has been no bad behaviour, insults, or abuse that would justify a block on either, and certainly not on Mr Maggoo. Akld guy (talk) 23:28, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Mr Maggoo made an edit about you in which he told you to stop being a girl. You have also seem to have allied yourself with Mr Maggoo by reposting a link to his self-published book and made insulting comments to Moriori accusing him of a conflict of interst with no evidence whatsoever. You have also made insulting comments about David Bain's sister in this post: "Laniet told so many people so many stories about pregnancy, childbirth, or abortion, that she must have been a flake. And if she was a flake on that score, she may have been a flake on her father's alleged illicit relationship with her. That is why Turtletop does not want the evidence of NEVER PREGNANT by the pathologist and hospital records, because it PROVES she was a flake and therefore tends to discredit the incest claim. The pathologist and hospital reports should be in the article. There is no reason to keep them out except censorship. Akld guy (talk) 01:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)"
Your neutrality and your personal judgement are highly questionable. Turtletop (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Akld guy has played a valuable role in mediating between the conflicting parties.-gadfium 00:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He has also contributed to the conflict and has started his own one with Moriori.Turtletop (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Don't make this about me. I have not aligned myself with Mr Maggoo. I came down on him hard in his early edits for not sourcing appropriately, and reverted many of them, but now that he has learned, he is posting material that you don't want in the article. I believe that some of that material he's adding should justifiably be in it. I did not accuse Moriori of having a conflict of interest, but asked him whether he had one, asking for a yes/no, not his identity. I note that he has not yet answered the question despite the elapse of more than two hours, prior to which he was active on the Talk page. He has to be given time to answer of course. Akld guy (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asking is equivalent to accusing. Why did you ask/accuse him in the first place? You appear to have done this to divert attention away from your posting of a link to Mr Maggoo's COI self-published book. Turtletop (talk) 00:28, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Gadfium, he may have played a mediation role, but he undid that with other behaviour, and I am quite surprised you didn't give him a little nudge for his insults to me. At the Bain talk page I have left the following reply to his latest insult -- "You continue with offensive insult. The Wikipedia article you have edited the most is David Bain with 58 edits and 100 to its talk page. I have made 4 edits to David Bain and 14 to the talk page. You = 158. Me = 18. I have edited more than 7,000 unique Wikipedia articles so I guess to you that suggests obvious COI." Moriori (talk) 00:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't make this about me. The question asked by the OP was to the effect, "should Mr Maggoo be blocked?" Akld guy (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also suggested that a total block could be put on the page. It's about all of us - and you seem to be avoiding taking any responsibility for your offensive behaviour towards other editors. If you don't want it to be about you, then I suggest you withdraw your insults to Moriori and apologise.
It would also help if you stopped accusing me of not being neutral. Bain was found not guilty and my contributions generally support that outcome. When you and Mr Maggoo add material which undermines that reality, you are not being neutral - and that's what leads to the content dispute. Turtletop (talk) 01:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The question asked by the OP was to the effect, "should Mr Maggoo be blocked?" Akld guy (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Akld guy (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to reply to a number of false allegations made about me by Turtletop. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First he accuses me of citing the Counterspin website. I have not cited the Counterspin website. I asked if I could cite the Counterspin website as a reference and was told I could not. Turtletop himself has cited the Counterspin website. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Second he accuses me repeatedly trying to add material from a lawyer who has been disbarred. This is not correct. When I first started editing on Wikipedia I set up a paragraph heading Response by Michael Guest. At that time I wasn't aware I had to cite a source. That paragraph was removed for that reason. I then asked if I could cite two different sources as a reference and was told that neither of those sources were reliable. I have not been able to find a reliable source I can site re that paragraph, so I have not tried to set it up again. Once is not repeatedly. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Third, he says all my edits support the view that David Bain is guilty. I resent that insinuation. I just find an article pertaining to the subject and cite it. I could just as easily say that all Turtletops edits support the view that David Bain is innocent. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fourthly, he says I have little understanding as to whether the information I am including is relevant. Let me assure Turtletop that I have no problem deciding what is relevant and what is not. And might I add I always endeavour to quote verbatim from the article I am citing. For example I don't say "some academics" when the article cited only refers to one academic. Turtletop would have us believe that a number of academics support the suggestion made by Justice Binnie that the Government was "shopping around" . From what I have read one law professor supports Binnie and three law professors disagree with that suggestion. [User:Mr Maggoo Mr Maggoo]] (talk) 02:08, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This post is directed to Turtletop You are definitely not neutral. You are trying to keep the insinuation that Laniet may have been pregnant/given birth/aborted as a result of incest by her father, despite the fact that not one witness has ever stepped forward to say that they saw Laniet with a baby, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet had given birth, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet had had an abortion, not one witness has ever stated that they KNEW Laniet gave away a baby for adoption. In short, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a pregnancy/baby/abortion. Mr Maggoo and I are attempting to corroborate that with highly relevant pathology and hospital record material that shows that there was almost certainly never any pregnancy. You have on several occasions disruptively attempted to censor that pathology and medical material from the article. Akld guy (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Edited Akld guy (talk) 02:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly anyone KNEW anything about this case. That’s why it has been controversial for 20 years. And of course there are no witnesses who KNEW Robin Bain raped Laniet or committed incest with her. But multiple witnesses testified that Laniet told them her father was sexually abusing her. On that basis the Privy Council obviously concluded that where there is smoke (and there was a lot of it), there may well be fire - so they declared there had been a miscarriage of justice. If you still think you need to include material that you think proves she wasn’t pregnant, can I suggest you read the following. Under the heading Due and undue weight, WP says:
“While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence”… “Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects”.
If you insist on including testimony that Laniet was NOT pregnant, you are giving undue weight to a minority aspect which was of no relevance to the Privy Council or to the jury at the retrial. The topic is David Bain (and perhaps whether or not he is guilty). Whether or not Laniet was pregnant is not the topic.Turtletop (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not Laniet was pregnant is germane to two issues: 1. that she was pregnant to her father, which you are trying to insinuate is a motive for him killing the members of his family, 2. the issue of Laniet's credibility, since if she was given to fantasies about a pregnancy/childbirth/abortion/white baby versus black baby, then there exists the possibility that the alleged incest with her father was also a fantasy. You are trying to censor from the article medical evidence that refutes a pregnancy because it counters your insinuation that there was a pregnancy/baby. Akld guy (talk) 06:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Laniet's credibility is not the topic. David Bain's is - or was. Your allegation of censorship is offensive. I don't control anything on WP so I can't possibly censor it. Please use more moderate language. Your allegation that I am insinuating that Laniet was pregnant to her father is also offensive. You have now said this a number of times. I have never said any such thing and your insinuations are a breach of WP:assume good faith
You have refused to apologise to Moriori over your insinuation that he had a COI so I don't expect you will apologize to me for your behaviour either. It would go a long way towards resolving this if you did. Turtletop (talk) 07:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of trying to communicate with other editors via edit summaries - would you consider using the talkpage first, and holding off on reverting other editors as an absolute last resort? SQLQuery me! 07:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Already tried the Talk page. It didn't work. Turtletop (talk) 09:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am still trying to master the correct procedure when using Wikipedia. Could I just say in my defence [ though age is no excuse] that it is hard for an old dog to learn new tricks specially when that old dog is in his eighties. Mr Maggoo (talk) 02:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any of us come out of this scrap looking good. I ask that some uninvolved people add the article to their watchlists, and crack down on any poor behaviour.-gadfium 04:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest cross-posting this to the BLP noticeboard. They generally have zero tolerance towards this sort of thing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Page is protected for 2 days. Will escalate protection, or issue blocks if the warring continues. SQLQuery me! 23:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mrss.shourie

Persistent copyright violations. Bazj (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For reference: Mrss.shourie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).
I just deleted one article that seemed to be a direct copy of one of the linked references. So the concern is a valid one, at least on that front. The user's deleted contributions indicate that this is not their first deleted article - others were deleted in early November 2015. They said, in their edit summary, that they were basing it on references - perhaps there is a language issue at play that prevents them from understanding the issue? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Request for administrator intervention regarding personal attack

Hi,

User @El Alternativo has resorted to personal attacks even after been asked to stop doing so.

Evidence on the matter:

I have tried to remain civil but considering the continuous personal attacks on my person I would like to request intervention from an administrator.

Ahnoneemoos (talk) 04:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Curious how the OP forgets to mention that I actually requested for the confrontations to cease and cooperate in editing the article in peace during the same edit. Anyways, is any of this even remotely close to being considered a "personal attack"? Saying "juvenile" when referencing a tag that was apparently added due to a revert is hardly an attack. And saying that his edit pattern would allow for a better attack since he is an apparent estadista is like saying it would allow for a better attack since he is democrat or republican. The reaction is way overblown. El Alternativo (talk) 04:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • But since we are here, I would like a take on the OP taking the source that I added to the article (my attempt to deal with his concerns) directly to the RS noticeboard without even asking me to prove it as reliable, and misrepresenting it as a strictly "pro-independence and socialist" source despite likely knowing, given his constant work on articles related to local politics, that the ideological range of the authors is varied and even includes people that belong to a centrist party. As noted in my rebuttal, this moves seems way undue and exaggerated to the point that I suspect a vindictive motivation, since he could have discussed the reliability of the source and I would have cited the same about PhDs and mainstream journalists, yet opted to take it all the way to the RS noticeboard, tag the article and leave me a note noting how he felt that I was being incivil for saying the word "juvenile". It seems to me that the OP may be abusing the RS noticeboard and he is most likely abusing this one. And since he is also actively engaged in a move war at Ricky Rosselló, I feel compelled to question if he is letting his passion of local politics get the better of him in his interactions with other users. El Alternativo (talk) 06:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please do not distort what I said. I never said that 80grados was "strictly" pro-independence and socialist. I said that it is a publication "with socialist and Puerto Rican pro-independence tendencies." Please stop twisting my words. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 01:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Excluding that other authors diverge from the posture that you adjudicate to the source, despite likely knowing beforehand, makes it voluntary omission. And since you took the reference to the RS noticeboard and tagged it as "failing verification" before the matter was disputed, and also before trying to engage me (if you can call posting a "warning" an attempt to engage), it seems quite clear that your intention was to defeat my posture before even discussing it, perhaps because you were offended that I called one of your actions juvenile. El Alternativo (talk) 04:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kindly notice that the personal attacks persist. On this diff the user is now claiming that I am "pursuing some sort of vindictive retribution" against him. Can an admin please intervene? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 01:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, I already mentioned and linked that above. How does that constitute a "personal" attack? It is just a note of the way that I perceive this sort of behavior. The only one of us that has actually tried to drop the one-sided conflict has been me by suggesting that you reconsider the overly-sensitive approach and I even took the first step by inserting your language in the article. Conversely, you did nothing to discuss the source's reliability with me; instead opting to take it there and tagging it. Given your edit history, it is likely that you know that it passes as a RS simply due to the notability and work of its authors within the mainstream. El Alternativo (talk) 04:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mdclxvi0 harrassing User:JesseRafe

This account came out of nowhere and began goading me on my Talk Page. I politely warned them about it, and then they ran with it accusing me of harassing them even though I only responded (unprompted) the one time. My second time I gave them a Final Warning on it (because in recent months I've been getting a lot of flack from registered and Anon-IPs) while pointing out their mistake that I've not done a thing, and they responded (for their third time with lies on my Talk Page) that I had done so thrice. This person is also seemingly very well versed in Wikipedia policies, nomenclature and backdoors and it would not surprise me if they are trying to avenge a past dispute.

  1. Random passive-agressive harassment, no prior interaction at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JesseRafe&diff=700180517&oldid=699601413 at 18:39, 16 January 2016
  2. I send a generic TW level 1 warning on harassment of other editors: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mdclxvi0&diff=700498750&oldid=699719662 at 17:39, 18 January 2016 and think nothing more of it.
  3. Then it gets good. User makes it obvious he or she is delusional or/and a different user with the following edit's claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JesseRafe&diff=700693285&oldid=700180517 at 21:33, 19 January 2016. Note that they said I am harassing them and they don't want to engage in a conversation with me! I had done nothing close to resembling this. My only interaction with this account was an automated low-level warning and by choosing my name out of a hat to harass on my Talk page the case could be made that a conversation with me (especially since they technically asked a question) was exactly what they wanted.
  4. For the reasons as stated above I didn't want to have to deal with another abusive troll so gave them a Final Warning on harassment, noting that that notice itself was only the second time I had ever interacted with them: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mdclxvi0&diff=700726190&oldid=700498750 at 02:49, 20 January 2016.
  5. And, of course, after that final warning of harassing me, they couldn't help themselves and came back to my Talk Page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JesseRafe&diff=700831329&oldid=700743845 at 18:05, 20 January 2016 again accusing me frivolously of things that are easily seen to be untrue.

Given this, and the specific language used, I find it hard to believe this user has only 9 days experience on this site, and at that almost 20% of their total edits have been to blatantly upbraid me on my Talk Page with random noise and lies. JesseRafe (talk) 22:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

JesseRafe, why don't you and Mdclxvi0 just agree to stay off each other talk pages? It seems like a tit-for-tat situation that isn't actually about any article. I'm sorry that you have had to deal with trolls and socks in the past but I don't think Mdclxvi0 qualifies as "an abusive troll" at this point. LizRead! Talk! 23:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am off his page! I was never on it! It's blatant lies on my page and he or she needs to get a warning. How else would a user fresh out of not having an account in nine days make 3 out of 16 edits on my Talk Page complaining about me when I had never interacted with their editing in their (at that time) prior 11 edits in 5 days, if they were were not a new editor just a new account? To say this is a "tit-for-tat" is a very unsatisfactory response. Clearly this user has an agenda. In fact, to deign to call it "tit-for-tat" legitimizes this blatant and obvious harassing troll behavior. There is no tit-for-tat when one party is unilaterally harassing and libeling another. JesseRafe (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see harassment and libel, I see two editors telling each other to stay away from each other. This doesn't need to escalate if you can just choose not to interact with each other. Liz Read! Talk! 23:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Liz, he feels as though because I am new user that he is entitled to sanction bans and harass people with accusations of sockpuppetry. He also threatened me with "administrator action" believing his time spent on Wikipedia gives him preferential treatment, and I am glad it didn't work! Screaming "libel" on one hand while accusing others of ban evading is ironic in and of itself. I have no interest in ever going to his talk page and am glad he is banned from going on mine. Thank you once again and will heed your advice to ignore. Mdclxvi0 (talk) 23:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This response itself is libel. I am happy to ignore this troll. The issue is his or her repeated and unprompted messages on my Talk Page over nothing but whatever he or she has imagined. I never knew this person existed until they started goading me. I had none of the mens rea this troll accuses me of, just stating the facts neutrally in the timeline provided above. What else is supposed to be done in this circumstance? JesseRafe (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"What else is supposed to be done in this circumstance?" - She just told you, in plain English, to "agree to stay off each other talk pages". Also, referring to me as a troll is a violation of WP:PERSONAL and doing so only gives credence to your persecution complex. Let bygones be bygones, stay off my talk page, and stop wasting the administrators' time. Mdclxvi0 (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If calling another editor "an abusive troll" is a personal attack, then saying that an editor has a "persecution complex" is equally so. You want the other editor to stop? Then you do the same. BMK (talk) 02:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, both of you: knock it off. Slinging a continually escalating series of personal attacks at each other is only going to end with both of you being blocked, so let's have an end to that. You don't want to talk to each other. Stop talking to each other. If you want a formalized WP:IBAN then ask for it, without using words like "lies", "libel", "delusional" or "persecution complex", but the issue can be resolved right now by both of you walking away from each other and working on content instead. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Go to your neutral corners: JesseRafe, I was inclined to support your complaint until you started saying "libel", "delusional" and "troll". I understand you're annoyed over this, but that's no excuse for intemperate behavior. I'll grant that Mdclxvi0's sudden inquiry at your user talk is suspicious, but you need not jump to any conclusions. Also, your OP is incorrect in stating that you used a level-1 warning template: You used a level-3 as an opener. That's definitely not appropriate. That said, Mdclxvi0: Your response to JesseRafe's use of a user warning template, even if incorrect, was way over the line and only made things worse. All that said, it's way too soon for administrative intervention. Furthermore, I'm inclined to say there's no reason that either of you must stay off each other's user talk pages at this time. It would probably be a good idea to leave each other alone for a bit, but I'm not a fan of jumping to what's essentially a voluntary interaction ban given how minor the precipitating incidents were. We shouldn't reward either knee-jerk accusations of harassment. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:16, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Wikibreaking personal attacks and WP:FORUMSHOP

This editor has received multiple warnings about civility and personal attacks. The most recent yesterday. Despite being here only a short while, they have engaged in numerous conflicts, including one that resulted in a block for edit warring, and further exhaustive conversations to overturn a deletion at multiple locations. They originally opened multiple deletion reviews for the same AFD and once it was scaled back to only one DRV and the direction of the consensus clearly pointing towards endorse, they've continued to pursue the closer on their talk page and another admin on their talk page. Their conduct at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 January 17 has been very combative telling editors they "lied" or calling other "annoying unqualified people" or telling them they "keep on insisting your bullshits anyway". This editor has also made statements saying they'll "resubmit this petition" because they don't like or agree with the discussion. I also noticed on their talk page that they've essentially re-posted much of the deleted content using their user talk page as a WP:SOAPBOX. I see this heading towards WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Mkdwtalk 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Their last edit was at 23:08 on 19 January - otherwise, I'd have blocked immediately for disruption. Their conduct at DRV has been dreadful, and probably got more people endorsing the close than would otherwise have bothered with it. I understand that they clearly feel strongly about the topic, but this isn't how it works here. So, if Wikibreaking is able to assure us that they are going to chill out, edit something else, stop threatening disruption, stop accusing editors of lying, and almost threatening civil action, then they can continue editing. I'm going to issue a final warning now, and ask them to come here and discuss the issue. Or, you know, not, and then they can discuss the block on their talk page. There does not appear to be much middle ground, here. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:55, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no intention of refraining from the terms "lied", "annoying unqualified people", "keep on insisting your bullshits anyway". First, they don't sound like personal attacks or insults to me. Second, I was talking facts. If you can't translate the language in the reference I linked, then you are not qualified to judge whether that reference is legitimate or not. Despite being unqualified, if you keep on insisting nonsense, then I am obviously annoyed & I have the right to express such infringement. Also, I obviously shouldn't have to avoid using the term "lying" (or the term bullshits) when you did lie. That's the level of discussion going on right now. I provide legitimate references on legitimate notable topics. My unqualified opponents just keep on insisting "not notable & not legitimate sources" without any indication to a specific detail. This is also why I split my article into 2 separate parts because the later half has ONLY English Google books as references (notable because of being talked about in the books & legitimate references because of being Google books published hundreds years ago). The result? Read the level of shits going on there. They shouldn't have any voice at all in this. Wikibreaking (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In Wikipedia, there is no such thing as "my" article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
When you start talking about "my unqualified opponents", it's usually a sign of a battleground attitude that will just lead you into more conflict and reappearances on this noticeboard, Wikibreaking. This discussion right here is a warning that your behavior has not been acceptable. You can choose to adapt to discussion, Wikipedia-style, or you can go on as you have and are likely to run into sanctions. Liz Read! Talk! 23:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well that response essentially highlights everything I've pointed out. I don't see this becoming a WP:NETPOS anytime soon. Mkdwtalk 23:30, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by their last comment Wikibreaking (is that supposed to mean something?) ought to consider improving their grasp of idiomatic English before editing English Wikipedia. BMK (talk) 02:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned with this colloquy from the DRV discussion, which, I think, comes perilously close to be a violation of WP:NLT by Wikibreaking:
  • You are not entitled to anything, just so you know. Stifle (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
  • If you are talking about legal issue, that can be sorted out in the civil court. (Infringement of privilege & entitlement unjustly.) If you are talking about the actual laws, that's for the judge & the written laws to decide. [...] Wikibreaking (talk) 21:27, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking appears to be claiming that their "privilege" and "entitlement" has been "unjustly infringed", and that this is a matter for the civil courts. BMK (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this edit[66] is both a legal threat and a claim of article ownership. The user in question needs to be indef'd immediately. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:13, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's intended to cause a WP:CHILLINGEFFECT using legal language, which makes it a legal threat; blocked. I'll note that in addition to withdrawing the legal threat they need to have a better understanding of WP:OWN and WP:BATTLEGROUND before being unblocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikibreaking is a problematic editor not only in DRV but also in editing other articles. The user added the same edit rejected as WP:SYNTH by other editors to other article. The user has a lack of grasping what the problem the user is doing and is incompetent in understanding the guidelines. Also, most of Wikibreaking's massive edits in Korean Wikipedia have been reverted by other experienced editor.Bulgogi, Gimbap,Taekkyon The user is clearly WP:NOTHERE. The user should be blocked indefinitely.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can't tell whether it's a true legal threat or use of legal language to cause a chilling effect, but I'm usually of the opinion that the difference should be academic in practice. "Real" legal threats should result in a block per WP:NLT. "Fake" legal threats should result in a block for disruption, either for a finite length, or until the "fake" legal threat is retracted so as to end the disruptive chilling effect. Generally speaking, some form of sanction is appropriate here. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The user has been blocked for legal threats, but I'd endorse leaving the user blocked because of their overall attitude. They have a serious battleground mentality and the trend I'm seeing is that they're unwilling or unable to assume good faith from other editors if they do not agree with their specific versions/edits. Their userpage, along with the massive amount of content they've added to their talk page, shows that they're almost guaranteed to be brought back to ANI and blocked for their behaviors. Upon being told by multiple editors that they're behaving poorly, their response is to accuse the other editors of lying and being disruptive. I don't think that there's any way that they could collaborate well with others even if we gave them a last chance unblock. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 05:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried to raise some of these issues with Wikibreaking and got nowhere. Their writing is aggressive and difficult to understand, but since I don't speak Korean, I was hoping that at least some of the sources were valid, and maybe other editors would be able to get through. Many other editors have tried, and now Phoenix7777 points out that this content has also been widely rejected at the Korean wiki as well, so AGF is exhausted. From their edit history, the user's name is likely a reference to Breaking (martial arts), so that part, at least, shouldn't be seen as a threat. Otherwise this is a constant battleground attitude over confusing and questionable edits, with only token attempts at compromise. Many of the user's edits go through contortions to advanced a pro-Korean and sometimes anti-Japanese POV ([67][68][69], etc.). There are competence, attitude, and advocacy problems here. Grayfell (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a note, I added a bit to the block notice there noting that it's not just because of the apparent NLT violation that the block became necessary. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yup, support all the above. The user was on notice about his/her combative behavior since 19 January and stuck the fingers in the ears. Stifle (talk) 10:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mshmurd at film articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mshmurd (talk · contribs) keeps going around to film articles adding "black comedy" for films that are clearly not black comedies, as seen here and here. When reverted, even if the edit is clearly explained to him via an edit summary, he returns to add the same edit; for example, as seen in this case. This editor has warnings on his talk page and does not seem to listen; he just edits disruptively again and again. I will go ahead and alert him and WP:Film to this thread. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ohnoitsjamie gave him a final warning on his talk page. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this is/was the best course of action. If it occurs again, he can be reported and blocked. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:42, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent Vandalism

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The user with IP 196.14.21.218 has vandalized Wiki multiple times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3A196.14.21.218

Some vandalism is hard to spot, for example the following vandalism persisted for almost 3 years before I corrected it today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide&diff=next&oldid=556065464

This user has been blocked multiple times, and it hasn't worked. Can we have a longer or even a permanent ban?

JS (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The IP has not edited since April 2015. — Diannaa (talk) 19:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While it is true that this IP hasn't edited for about a year, this editor has a long history of vandalism for over 3 years (March 2012 to April 2015) and could be back. It took me a bit of time to identify this well disguised vandalism that persisted in an article almost 3 years. JS (talk) 06:31, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jayanta Sen - Blocks are not a punitive measure, but a preventative measure. In this situation (vandalism), blocks are only performed when they are currently in-progress, and after other measures have been attempted (such as sufficiently warning the user). Also, IPs are usually never indefinitely blocked from editing; they're blocked for 36 hours (longer if long term, repeated, or a block just expired - behavior typically seen by School IPs). In this situation, there is absolutely no reason to block the IP at this time. If vandalism starts up from this IP, warn the user, and report it to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. This is the proper procedure that should be followed. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Millimeter Wave Scanners page

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on the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner, the primary contributer to that page is contantly changing my edits to his erronious information. He is citing blogs and tabloids as credible sources for scientific and medical information. His statements are false and or misleading most of the time. I have tried to make corrections to his edits and information based on more up to date and credible sources of information, but he keeps going back in there to erase my edits and interject his own poorly researched information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7742:89B0:91A0:1E54:F890:ACE6 (talk) 19:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is three different editors that have reverted your edits. This is a content dispute and your first step should be to go to the talk page and explain why you think your changes are correct and the article is wrong. With the size of the changes it would be best to start with one piece and discuss that and gain consensus to the change. Then move on to the next one. -- GB fan 19:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with GB fan (Sorry about the Green Bay @ Arizona game - I assume that's what your username means ;-)). ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:10, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Steel1943

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Steel1943 (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribslogsfilter logblock userblock log) - Please block this user. He keeps adding unnecessary plot description to Zapp Brannigan, and has also added unnecessary original research to Melissa Duck. 172.56.38.239 (talk) 15:32, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Take it to the article talk page.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that 172.56.38.239 is a block evasion. The edits in question are not OR or unnecessary, let alone a reason to block Steel1943 (Zapp diff, Melissa Duck diff). --Soetermans. T / C 16:02, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jsp722 and his campaign against the word "pagan"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jsp722 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been pursuing a campaign to eradicate the word “pagan” from various Wikipedia articles. Most recently here. The edit comment was: “Undid vandalizing edit which lacked any summary or justification and removed relevant information without any previous resort to talk, perpetrated by notorious wikistalker.” That last comment was directed at me. He has been told any offence he takes is his problem on more than one occasion by more users, and I don't see him engaging on talk pages anywhere. He only once reacted on his own talkpage saying: "Hi Irina, it's funny that me too I found the usage of terms such as “pagan” and “paganism” promotional and worth some kind of soapbox. Such blanket, disdainful, derogatory terms are well known propaganda weapons customarily used by fanaticized Christian propagandizers with the sole intent of degrading non-monotheistic religions. On the other hand, “ancestral Slavic religion”, and “ancestral Slavic, Indo-European religion” are a perfectly neutral, accurate, precise, and insightful phrases. Therefore, I undid your changes and request you not to insist on your unruly, propagandistic changes." Other gems from his edit comments are: “Replaced inaccurate, uninformative, religious-politically biased, propagandistic, Abrahamic-supremacist, pseudo-scientific, derogatory “pagan”, with accurate, informative, neutral, scientific, ethnoculturally appreciative “Norse religion” or “Replaced derogatory, politically motivated, inaccurate, terrorist hate-propaganda term “pagan” with neutral, informative, accurate, unbiased “followers of traditional religions”. Here, can be seen that this is a one issue account all about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This has been going on for years (he also has an equally large bee in his bonnet about "Nazi Party",FWIW). I do note that while various people have told him to knock it off in the past, nobody's ever actually given any kind of warning. ‑ Iridescent 19:25, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree with the problem with the edit summaries, in the second case the replacement of "pagan" with "Norse religion" - and the addition of an appropriate wikilinks - seems entirely appropriate. In this instance, I have restored the change (with a more helpful edit summary) in the hopes of adding clarity to the article. ScrpIronIV 19:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that particular case it's OK. However I think that replacing a perfectly understandable word as "pagan" with categories that are based on "feelgood"terms combined with linguistic categories like "ancestral Indo-European religion" or negative terms like "non-Abrahamic" is problematic. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest a "final warning" from an Admin here. While they haven't necessarily been warned about this specifically, they've received plenty of other kinds of warnings from other unhappy editors. --IJBall(contribstalk) 22:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Hebel says:] Jsp722 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been pursuing a campaign to eradicate the word “pagan” from various Wikipedia articles. Most recently here.

Dear Hebel, thank you for your interest in my humble edits.
I believe that you have improperly resorted to this Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents page.
Indeed, according to the Welcome Section above, “[b]efore posting a grievance about a user here, please consider discussing the issue with them on their user talk page”.
However, no such discussion has ever taken place, as per your own weird choice.
Indeed, while it's true that you have posted a note on my own talkpage at 21:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC), no actual discussion could take place, since immediately thereafter you posted your grievance straight on this Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents page, at 19:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)!
You simply could not wait even 24 hours for an answer from my side! Please note as well that since you posted your note on my talkpage I have refrained from any edit you might perceive as offensive (or from any edit at all to that effect). It just happened that I was busy with something else.
Therefore, you behavior appears to be precipitous, to say the least.
As to the content of your complaint, any edit which replaces any given word with another, deemed to be more appropriate, in any number of Wikipedia articles (even if it is just one), could be alarmistically misrepresented as a “campaign to eradicate” such word from such article or articles, which is precisely what you did.
Such an exaggeration alone makes your complaint sound inadequate, if not a bit preposterous, just because those word replacements may, in principle, be perfectly adequate and well-warranted.
Therefore, what should be discussed is not the trivial fact that a word was replaced with another in any number of articles, which is the very essence of how Wikipedia works, but rather the worth, or lack thereof, of the replacement itself.
However, such discussion should take place on the modified articles' talkpage, or on the interested editors' talkpages, but not on this Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents page as though the mere act of editing were an infraction.
Apropos, may I point to the fact that all of my edits without any exception were offered together with a clear explaining summary, while all of your reverts (except for the last one, after my warning) were done without any summary explanation, which suggests an unwillingness to discuss the topic, if not a disruptive, vandalizing intention.
Add to this that all of your reverts (except for the first one) were done in articles on which you had shown no previous interest, but which you could only find as the result of a dubious, patrolling, wikistalking behavior. Add to this your systematic lack of edit summaries, and we have the reinforced picture of a disruptive, vandalizing intention and behavior.
Therefore, may I suggest that you review your own intentions, correct your own behavior, and wait for my opportune answer on my own talkpage, or for my inputs on any edited article's talkpage. Then you will be able to explain your reasons, and why you fear that referring to Norse religion as “Norse religion” rather than “paganism” is the ominous sign of the end of the world. Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Hebel says:] The edit comment was: “Undid vandalizing edit which lacked any summary or justification and removed relevant information without any previous resort to talk, perpetrated by notorious wikistalker.” That last comment was directed at me. He has been told any offence he takes is his problem on more than one occasion by more users, and I don't see him engaging on talk pages anywhere.

For someone like you, who has never offered even a mere edit summary justifying your own relevant edits (except for the rather phobic threats accompanying your last edit), you are asking a lot. I believe that any user is entitled to decide by themselves if and when to engage in any talks, and should not be judged from how many talks they have engaged in.
In my case, I have consistently offered clear, meaningful edit summaries, and my edits have most often been accepted without discussion, except for the occasional “thanks”. When they were reverted, I have consistently accepted the revert, and refrained from edit wars, choosing instead to wait until the moment I may find it appropriate to engage in further talks. Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Hebel says:] He only once reacted on his own talkpage saying: "Hi Irina, it's funny that me too I found the usage of terms such as “pagan” and “paganism” promotional and worth some kind of soapbox. Such blanket, disdainful, derogatory terms are well known propaganda weapons customarily used by fanaticized Christian propagandizers with the sole intent of degrading non-monotheistic religions. On the other hand, “ancestral Slavic religion”, and “ancestral Slavic, Indo-European religion” are a perfectly neutral, accurate, precise, and insightful phrases. Therefore, I undid your changes and request you not to insist on your unruly, propagandistic changes." Other gems from his edit comments are: “Replaced inaccurate, uninformative, religious-politically biased, propagandistic, Abrahamic-supremacist, pseudo-scientific, derogatory “pagan”, with accurate, informative, neutral, scientific, ethnoculturally appreciative “Norse religion” or “Replaced derogatory, politically motivated, inaccurate, terrorist hate-propaganda term “pagan” with neutral, informative, accurate, unbiased “followers of traditional religions”. Here, can be seen that this is a one issue account all about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Hebel for so extensively quoting my edit summaries and talks. I think that they offer abundant evidence of my own reasons about the inadequacy of the “pagan” word, and the appropriateness of phrases such as “Norse religion”.
However, I believe that the appropriate place to discuss the worth, or lack thereof, of such words and phrases are the relevant talkpages, not this Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents page, which should rather deal with users' editorial behavior -- a field by the way where your own behavior seems to be far from exemplary.
Still, it is interesting to remark that, although I have offered abundant reasons against the “pagan” usage, you have never refuted them, and while you have so passionately objected to phrases such as “Norse religion”, you have never offered any reason in support of your objection either -- and you have even explicitly accepted the same phrase when used by ScrapIronIV, as seen below, which discomfits your whole complaint!
Therefore, it seems that your inconformity is propelled by some personal, irrational phobia, rather than being based on any scientific, rational, equanimous assessment. Besides, your empty quotation of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS sounds rather like a wikilawyering-motivated need to fill up an empty protest with some high-sounding law article, which if anything applies precisely to your own behavior.
For the sake of completeness, may I add that of course there are abundant scholarly references showing both the devious nature of the terminology “pagan”, and the appropriateness and scientific worth of phrases such as “Norse religion”, but I believe that such discussion hardly belongs here, and should be reserved to the appropriate talkpages -- to the chagrin of Hebel, of course, who would seemingly prefer the summary elimination of dissenting voices, à la Kim Jong-Un. Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Iridescent says:] This has been going on for years (he also has an equally large bee in his bonnet about "Nazi Party",FWIW). I do note that while various people have told him to knock it off in the past, nobody's ever actually given any kind of warning. ‑ Iridescent 19:25, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Iridescent for your interest, and your deep research on my edits; it's always uplifting to know that someone has read what I wrote! Now, if my edits have been “going on for years” without “any kind of warning” they should not be that bad, eh?
As to your objection to name Hitler's National Socialist Party as such, rather than “Nazi Party”, the big bee seems to be in your own bonnet, as you have such a hard time to call things by their names.
Your logic is reminiscent of European dark ages, when it was thought to be dangerous to mention the Devil by name (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/speak-of-the-devil.html).
However, since God too should not be mentioned by name, the doubt remains whether according to you Hitler and his party belong to the side of God or of the Devil (unless like Hitler you are an atheist as well)! Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[ScrapIronIV says:] While I agree with the problem with the edit summaries, in the second case the replacement of "pagan" with "Norse religion" - and the addition of an appropriate wikilinks - seems entirely appropriate. In this instance, I have restored the change (with a more helpful edit summary) in the hopes of adding clarity to the article. Scr★pIronIV 19:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you ScrapIronIV; I was almost despairing of my unpopular “Norse religion” theory, to the point of fearing that even Thor from now on would call himself a “pagan” as per Hebel wishes! Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Hebel says:] In that particular case it's OK.

That “particular case” is exactly the same as all other “cases”, except that the change was made by another editor. Your agreement here shows that your concern with my identical changes is purely personal, and that you lack any point at all.
Besides, accepting the change when made by another editor, but obsessively wikistalking and reverting my identical changes, just because they were authored by me, plus your virulent personal attacks, make it a hard job to assume your good faith WP:AGF. Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Hebel says:] However I think that replacing a perfectly understandable word as "pagan" with categories that are based on "feelgood"terms combined with linguistic categories like "ancestral Indo-European religion" or negative terms like "non-Abrahamic" is problematic. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This you could have said in the appropriate talk page, which you miserably failed to do, instead inappropriately coming straight to vent your unresolved personal frustrations on this Administrators' noticeboard/Incident page. Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[IJBall says:] I suggest a "final warning" from an Admin here. While they haven't necessarily been warned about this specifically, they've received plenty of other kinds of warnings from other unhappy editors. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, no! Another Kim Jong-Un in the block! You dislike, plus someone else was unhappy, then... zap!, Final Solution on the poor target of your annihilating instincts! You might find yourself together with some self-help here: http://www.cracked.com/article_21834_5-realities-life-when-your-brain-wants-you-to-murder.html Jsp722 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I do see certain problems with Jsp722's style of expression, I note that quite a lot of his edits do indeed seem to replace "pagan" or "paganism" (and some other specific buzz-words) with descriptions that are in fact more nuanced and more exact. Also, while we aren't here to right great wrongs, for those who are bothered by the derogatory origins and occasional derogatory overtones of the word "pagan", his descriptions are definitely less of an un-necessary irritation and make for a better encyclopedia. I have no present intention to make any further comments on this thread, but I feel that all sides might benefit from some careful reconsideration, possibly some advice. Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:06, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I should add that I'd be happy to discuss this further with any editor. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This edit is a good example of why Jsp722 needs to be stopped: removing this word makes it unclear whether we're talking about their religious beliefs or something about cultural mythology comparable to George Washington and the cherry tree. This edit, likewise: Judaism was a traditional religion of the region, but that's not the meaning at all. Unrelated issue, but also problematic, appears here, as Jsp722 either takes offense to "precocious" or misunderstands it as some sort of derogatory term. All of his edits that I've checked involve removing or replacing useful terminology, and in every case the result is worse. Finally, Richard, what do you mean about the derogatory origins of the word, and how is it a buzzword? It merely means "rural" in its etymology, and while I can imagine that being used derogatorily like "hick" or "redneck" are in the US, that's irrelevant to the issues at hand here. It's been used for millennia with essentially its current meaning, and most or all fluent speakers of English will easily understand what's being meant. Nyttend (talk) 14:36, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Taking Nyttend's points one by one, This edit removes the word "pagan" and leaves "Prussian mythology". I'd see that as an improvement. In most cultures the mythology is the religion, or, to put it another way, very few cultures have regarded religion as an entirely separate thing from mythology. The word "pagan" is at least superfluous here. At This edit we find "pagan" replaced by "followers of traditional religions", again possibly an improvement, though I personally would consider piping it to Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia. (I also don't have the reference so can't check whether Jewish Arabs made pilgrimage to Mecca or not.) And at this edit, Jsp722 removes the word "precocious" from the description of a man whose career achieved the École Normale Supérieure only at his third attempt and at the age of 21. The substituted word "persistent" is simply an improvement in accuracy, I suggest. Finally, the word "pagan" was indeed originally derogatory, meaning "country hick", and it still does carry pejorative overtones at times. I'm not hung up on avoiding offence, the word has indeed been widely used including by neo-pagans, and there are appropriate places to use it, but it's not something we should be insisting on at every place where it could possibly be used. Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
May I add, beside the already tired topic of derogatoriness, that the usage “pagan” reflects a Christian, or maybe Abrahamic, point-of-view, whereas Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, or as neutral as possible. Otherwise we might start to call followers of Abrahamic religions “mlechccha” (barbarians) which is how some Eastern traditions would refer to them. Besides, “pagan” and “paganism” are inaccurate, imprecise, confusing, and thus unscientific terms, because they may variously refer to different sets of religions, including or not Zoroastrianism (held by some as monotheistic and thus included among the “religions of the book”); including or not great religions such as Taoism, Hinduism, or Buddhism; including or not Catholicism, Anglicanism or Orthodox Christianity (viewed by some as polytheistic and idolater), and so forth, and one will never know which set of religions is meant by such terms, although one will always know that whoever is referred by such terms is or was supposed to be exterminated anyway. Besides, “pagan” and “paganism” are obscuring, uninformative terms, as one remains in the darkness as to which culture victim of Christian or Islamic physical and cultural genocide the reference is made, whether to those of the Anglo-Saxons, of the Frisians, of the Norse, of the Iberians, of the Lusitanians, of the Franks, of the Celts, of the Slavs, of the Mithraists, of the Arabs, of the Native Americans, of the Yazidis, of the Greeks, of the Romans, and so forth, all of them in the last two millenia dismissed, trivialized, and demonized by Christian propaganda as merely “pagans”. Therefore, lazily indulging in such blunt, gross, uninsightful, generalizing, defacing, dehumanizing, blanket terms as “pagan” and “paganism”, without any effort to identify, individualize, specify, and therefore humanize such a wealth of religious traditions together with their followers, whenever possible, kind of complements their programmed and systematic physical and psychological extermination with their intellectual extermination as well: a weird, uncomely role to be performed by Wikipedia. Jsp722 (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One extra remark: while the words “pagan” an “paganism” are seldom or never used in relation to ancient polytheistic religions, such as those of the Sumerians, of the Egyptians, of the Akkadians, of the Harappans, of the Hittites, and so forth, which were not subjected to the episodes of physical and cultural genocide called “Christianization”, these very same terms are systematically used to describe those other polytheistic religions which were subjected to such episodes of genocide, such as those of the Celts, Slavs, Norse, Saxons, Prussians, Balts, Native Americans, and so forth. Therefore, the conclusion is obvious that the terms “pagan” and “paganism” were created and have served strictly as a war propaganda jargon in support of physical and cultural genocide, not unlike “idolater”, “infidel”, “devil worshipper”, “heathen”, “satanist”, “apostate” etc., variously used by Abrahamic religionists from biblical times (whatever is the fact behind biblical mythology) to the Islamic State in our days. In other words, there are arguably more similarities than differences between the Islamic State terrorist razing Palmyra or decapitating a Yazidi “idolater”, and the Christian-biased Wikipedia editor trying to raze even the scientific names for non-Abrahamic religions exterminated by Christianity or trying to decapitate a co-editor just because they have objected to the obsessive, indiscriminate use of such Christian-terrorist jargons as “pagan” and “paganism”. Jsp722 (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Nyttend says:] This edit is a good example of why Jsp722 needs to be stopped: removing this word makes it unclear whether we're talking about their religious beliefs or something about cultural mythology comparable to George Washington and the cherry tree.

While I believe that every mythology is anyway cultural, from the article's context it is clear that the reference was the old Prussian religious belief system; among other reasons because the text explicitly say that it was something followed (unless you are used to follow anecdotes).
Besides, Webster clearly defines mythology as “A body of myths; esp., the collective myths which describe the gods of a heathen people; as, the mythology of the Greeks.” Add to this the context of the article, and it is quite obvious that the reference is a religious system, with or without the term “pagan”.
Personally, I think that the best wording would be something like “Prussian religious beliefs”, according to your own description above, rather than “Prussian mythology”, which is more restricted. Indeed, “religious beliefs” include many other factors beside mythology, such as ritual, cosmology, taboos, and so forth.
However, since “Prussian mythology” is the very title of the linked Wikipedia page, I found it more appropriate to leave the word “mythology” unchanged. Please note that the title of the Wikipedia linked page is “Prussian mythology”, not “Pagan Prussian mythology” as you would want, which would indeed sound rather ridiculous.
Indeed, “pagan mythology” is rather redundant, since in the current context mythology is anyway “pagan”, “heathen” or whatever you want to call it, as highlighted by the above quoted Webster's definition. Unless of course if you want to suggest that there is “Christian mythology”, “Jewish mythology”, or “Abrahamic mythology”, with which I would immediately agree.
That said, what strikes me is your slightly phobic proclamation of the “need to stop” Jsp722 just because of such a trivial disagreement. If you, like Hebel and probably others, want the “pagan” word in this phrase, just undo my edit. If I disagree, I can discuss the topic in the article's page, as I'm doing here. If there's still no agreement, anyone of us can still request a dispute resolution, and the issue will be settled by a neutral party.
Therefore, may I suggest that you cool down a little bit, review your motivations, and engage in discussions with a proper, constructive attitude, rather than trying to almost criminalize editors you may perceive as rivals just because of petty differences of opinion, and to impose your views, right or wrong, through the invocation of extreme, disciplinary means, all of which run completely against the very collaborative principles on which Wikipedia is based. Jsp722 (talk) 17:39, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Nyttend says:] This edit, likewise: Judaism was a traditional religion of the region, but that's not the meaning at all.

There the original text was like this:
“tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or pagan, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj”,
while after my edit it became like this:
“tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or followers of traditional religions, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj
While of course Judaism was a traditional religion of the region, Jewish tribes were not, according to my phrasing, necessarily included among the followers of traditional religions converging to Mecca, just because I did not say that “tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or followers of all traditional religions, would converge to Mecca”.
Besides, if you insist on saying that beside Christian tribes only “pagan” tribes would converge to Mecca to perform the Hajj, you are adventuring the unwarranted, unreferenced, novel theory that absolutely no Jewish tribe was converging to Mecca to perform the Hajj!
Now, if you have a specific reference showing that no Jewish tribes were converging on Mecca to performing the Hajj, please feel free to enrich Wikipedia with it, which still does not imply that the useless “pagan” word has to be used at all, since Jewish tribes are not necessarily implied in my edit, and given the word's many already discussed shortcomings.
Bottom line, blinded by your inquisitorial frenzy to find petty faults in my humble edits, and by your furious obsession for punishments aiming solely at the summary elimination of a perceived rival, you have not only incurred primitive logic faults, but also tried to pass your own ahistorical, thoughtless guesses as though they were ultimate truths. Jsp722 (talk) 22:31, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Nyttend says:] Finally, Richard, what do you mean about the derogatory origins of the word, and how is it a buzzword?

When it comes to ignorance of the meaning of words, consulting dictionaries, or just reading in general, makes miracles (or pagan magic, if you wish). While any standard dictionary should do the job, try for instance the links below. Once you are in the linked webpage, press Ctrl + F to search for the word “derogatory.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
https://simple.wiktionary.org/wiki/pagan
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pagan,
http://www.hellenicgods.org/pagan%3Aacontroversialterm
Also, a Google search gave 144.000 results for the search pagan+derogatory
Were you and others such as Hebel to spend with honest research 1% of the time and energy you spend with ridiculous wikistalking, petty nitpicking, and infantile bickering, strictly motivated by the base wish of eliminating from Wikipedia editors you might perceive as rivals, and you wouldn't need to ask this kind of primitive question.
However, just for the sake of illustration, and so that you may develop some minimal acquaintance with the topic, here follow some authoritative quotations from the above links:
“Paganism is a term that developed among the Christian community of southern Europe during late antiquity to describe religions other than their own, Judaism, or Islam–the three Abrahamic religions. Throughout Christendom, it continued to be used, typically in a derogatory sense.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
“Paganism has also been understood by some[who?] to include any non-Abrahamic religions, but this is generally[who?] seen as insulting by adherents of those religions.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
Once monotheistic religions, such as Christianity and Islam, started to become more prominent (in processes known as Christianization and Islamization), names to encompass polytheistic worshipers started to develop; some of these include Hellene, pagan, and heathen, and at times these names were used as slurs.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
“Pagans were usually described within this worldly stereotype, especially among those drawing attention to what they perceived as the limitations of paganism.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#Perception
“Pagan, adjective”
1. If something (or someone) is pagan, it is from a kind of religion called paganism.
2. (often offensive or derogatory) Relating to a religion that is not a major religion; often anything non-Christian.
3. (by extension) Immoral, uncivilized, savage, heathen.”
“Pagan, noun
1. A pagan is someone who follows paganism or a polytheistic religion.
2. (often offensive or derogatory) A person who doesn't follow a major religion; often used to refer to non-Christians.
3. (by extension) Someone who is immoral, uncivilized, savage, or a heathen.”
https://simple.wiktionary.org/wiki/pagan
“Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (such as milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.” http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pagan
“'Pagan' is a word invented by early Christians to describe anyone who refused to recognize the Only True God, and no self-respecting pagan ever described himself as one.” http://www.hellenicgods.org/pagan%3Aacontroversialterm
“...paganus, the root of 'pagan' as well as 'peasant,' is consistently pejorative.." (A Chronicle of the Last Pagans by Pierre Chuvin, 1990, Harvard University Press, p.7)” http://www.hellenicgods.org/pagan%3Aacontroversialterm
Jsp722 (talk) 01:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Nyttend says:] It [pagan]] merely means "rural" in its etymology, and while I can imagine that being used derogatorily like "hick" or "redneck" are in the US, that's irrelevant to the issues at hand here.

You might want to elaborate a bit more in depth on your thoughts, and explain exactly why you say that the derogatoriness of a term is irrelevant within a discussion centered on... the derogatoriness of the same term!
Or maybe you want to say that the derogatoriness of the term “pagan” is irrelevant in the context of an article describing the extermination of a people and its religion just because they were, eh... “pagan”, is it?

[Nyttend says:] It's been used for millennia with essentially its current meaning,

For about two millenia, and always with the same derogatory meaning and purpose, as extensively shown elsewhere in this discussion, to wit, as the foremost war-propaganda enemy-bashing hate-jargon supporting the physical and cultural genocide globally perpetrated against countless non-Christian peoples, called “Christianization”, akin to the 1400 years old parallel physical and cultural genocide waged against non-Muslim peoples known as “Islamization”, both parts and continuation of a wider and older relentless war against humanity, civilization, and religious freedom, known as “Abrahamization”, which started when Hebrews invented the so-called “first Noahide commandment”, which commands and wants binding on all of humanity, Hebrews and non-Hebrews alike, full surrender and submission to the Hebrew tribal “god”, the cruel, murderous, genocidal, envious, narcissistic, exclusivistic, monomaniac, mythical creature of a sick imagination, known as “Yahveh”, as represented, of course, by “his” “chosen people”, the Hebrew, thus conveniently elevated by their own supremacistic mythology to the supreme rank among nations, with a little help from their Christian and Muslim ideological vassals.

[Nyttend says:] and most or all fluent speakers of English will easily understand what's being meant.

Of course. They will understand exactly what is meant, to wit, “someone who is immoral, uncivilized, savage, or a heathen”, a “devil worshipper”, an “idolater”, “someone worth being burned at the stake”, “someone from a worthless culture worth being destroyed and denied”, and so forth.
Jsp722 (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jsp722, you need to knock it off with the "my humble edits" crap and the condescending attitude here; all editors are expected to edit collaboratively and collegially and treat other editors civilly and with respect. You also need to knock it off with the "politically motivated, religious-terrorist-propaganda coined term 'pagan'" etc. edit summaries and personal attack edit summaries. That said, in the instances I looked at and the instances mentioned above, the replacement of the word pagan with the more accurate specific, neutral, and correct terms has been an improvement. "Pagan" is not, and should never be used as, an antithesis of "Christian" or other 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-millennium religions, monotheistic religions, or Abrahamic religions. Where specificity is available and verifiable, specificity should be used. Of course in the end this is a content dispute, and content disputes should be worked out on talk pages using citations, discussions, and consensus. Softlavender (talk) 17:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[SoftLavender says:] Jsp722, you need to knock it off with the "my humble edits" crap and the condescending attitude here;

Dear SoftLavender, thank you for your remarks. My usage of the phrase “my humble edits” is just a polite way of saying that I would be happy to listen to diverging opinions, or that I don't expect my edits to by accepted without question.
It is an expression akin to “in my humble opinion”, often initialized by IMHO, and described by Wiktionary as an expression “[u]sed to introduce or qualify a statement, as expressing one's own view, not one backed by external authority or to be accepted without question”, although in case my expressed views are even lavishly supported by external authority, which IMHO makes my usage of the word “humble” very humble indeed.
What makes you construe standard good manners and politeness as “crap” is beyond me, but is probably not my problem either, and therefore I'll let it go.
As to the supposed “condescending attitude” from my side, you might care to specify where did you find it, instead of just irresponsibly machine-gunning your subjective perceptions as though they were some sort of obvious truth.
Finally, as to your compulsive need to start sentences addressing others with the commandeering phrase “You need”, which is hardly a show of collaborative and collegial civility and respect, I'll leave the topic for you to discuss privately with a professional, if so you wish.

[SoftLavender says:] all editors are expected to edit collaboratively and collegially and treat other editors civilly and with respect.

As the old saying goes, “you teach best what you most need to learn.”

[SoftLavender says:] You also need

Did I say it was compulsive?

[SoftLavender says:] to knock it off with the "politically motivated, religious-terrorist-propaganda coined term 'pagan'" etc. edit summaries

I believe that expressions such as “pagan” and “paganism” are indeed politically motivated, and highly so to that effect; a well-documented genocide-supporting, religious-terrorist propaganda slur, to put it mildly, not unlike the “idolater” and “devil-worshiper” name-calling used by Islamic State terrorists in support of their own unspeakable mass-murderings. Besides, Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral. Therefore, I wonder why a reference to the slurring-propagandistic nature of such terms as “pagan” and “paganism” should be excluded from edit summaries, since they are one among the many important reasons justifying the edit to start with!

[SoftLavender says:] and personal attack edit summaries.

Since you have failed to offer any evidence in support of your presumably subjective, impressionistic assessment, may I assume that your accusation is not serious, and therefore can be safely ignored.

[SoftLavender says:] Of course in the end this is a content dispute, and content disputes should be worked out on talk pages using citations, discussions, and consensus.

This has been my main, often repeated point from the very start, as you can see if you just care to read all of my posts on this thread.
However, for some unknown reason, some people, in a somewhat hysterical way, saw my humble objections against the usage of such terms as “pagan” and “paganism” as some sort of transcendental-disciplinary-issue-and-existential-threat-against-Wikipedia-urgently-necessitating-the-violator's-summary-crucifixion, which in turn necessitated my, er, humble subsequent responses together with explanations on my own views on the topic.
Jsp722 (talk) 22:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
Someone's threatened to crucify you? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are obviously a Crucifixion denier. Jsp722 (talk) 00:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is that your joke? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone's. Jsp722 (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, no. Not mine. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Did someone say everyone's? Jsp722 (talk) 00:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Someone said "some people, in a somewhat hysterical way". 00:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Congratulations. Yawn. Jsp722 (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tired already? Why am I a "Crucifixion denier"? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You missed the opportunity to ask. Now you have to figure it out by yourself. Jsp722 (talk) 00:52, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, handy that. Struggling already, alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Just keep struggling, then send some news. Jsp722 (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We can see why you're so popular here. Martinevans123 (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome. Are you two, or how many? Jsp722 (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I sense the beginning of a bromance here! - theWOLFchild 21:40, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rock on. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC) [reply]
Martinevans, being a “we”, can easily “bromance” themselves self-sufficiently (assuming of course that the two or more “me” making up their “we” belong to the same gender). Jsp722 (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We obviously can have no issue with that. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC) [reply]
  • At this point, I'd say Jsp722 does need some sort of wake-up call and an at-least temporary sanction, as his style of editing and interaction is incompatible with Wikipedia's pillars of civility and neutrality, and his contentiousness and tendentiousness are veering into WP:NOTHERE. There is far too much deliberate time-wasting going on here in this thread, rather than a willingness to actively resolve the issue. I think a six-month topic ban on "pagan" and "paganism", broadly construed, would probably be the best route. Anyone agree? The topic could be extended to include other areas if the behavior simply shifts. After the topic ban is over, some sort of mentoring might be in order. Softlavender (talk) 05:56, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree. The central idea, that the word "pagan" is often misused, is probably a valid one. But Jsp722 seems to be more concerned with rubbishing the views of other editors and sneering at their supposed ignorance. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My general feeling is that the discussion about the terms “pagan” and “paganism”, which gave rise to the current thread (please see its title), is for the moment rather exhausted, and reasonably settled, with general agreement on the shortcomings of the terms, which is arguably an asset for Wikipedia's future development. Clearly this Administrative noticeboard/Incidents page was not the appropriate place for such discussion, but that is the way it happened. There was some noise at the very end of the thread, by people who gave absolutely no contribution to it, and apparently more interested on provocative jesting, or on venting personal frustrations, than on actually contributing to the settlement of the topic — a settlement which has been reasonably achieved and was the only purpose of the current incident. Jsp722 (talk) 13:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There were two points. The first is the substantive one about the use of "pagan" and other words, which I hope we have indeed exhausted. The other is about interactive style, in particular Jsp722's, though a quick riffle through history does suggest that other editors have made some contribution to the problem. The paragraph immediately above is an example of an approach and style thoroughly inappropriate here. (In a college session of friends setting the world to rights it might be far more appropriate, context is key.) Jsp722, would you accept any sort of mentoring? Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! I'm here to learn. (Although your two sentences before the last remain a bit of a mystery to me). Jsp722 (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the word "pagan" as commonly used is inappropriate for a world encyclopedia for the reasons noted. It would be far better to name the religion or culture the word "pagan" was intended to reference. I also agree that Jsp722 needs to learn some manners in order to be more effective at effecting the changes he'd like to see. Rklawton (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You might be my mentor, as proposed by Richard, if this is feasible. I'm ready to learn about manners, about effectiveness at change, and about just anything else from you, or from anyone else to that effect. Jsp722 (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds much more encouraging. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I can have many mentors! From Hebel I'll learn obsessively to wikistalk/wikihound editors for personal motives, to gratuitously mass-disrupt and vandalize their useful edits, and to still have the impudence to report my victim to an ANI page; from IJBall I'll learn to join the chorus frantically asking the summary elimination of disliked editors just for the fun of it; from Iridescent I'll learn to suggest that other editors are “Nazis” in the lack of any other arguments; from Nyttend I'll learn to find fault in the faultless, and bold-facely to pretend that I have never heard that “pagan” is a derogatory word; from SoftLavender I'll learn to start every sentence addressed to another editor with a domineering “You need to”, the joylessness to dismiss even standard collegial politeness as “crap”, and the exhilarating pleasure to be found in controlling and punishing; and from Martinevans I'll learn to refer to myself as “we”, and how to spend my night making witty remarks without falling asleep! Jsp722 (talk) 22:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good job it's not a case of "us and them". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here you come again with your “us” thing... But I have to agree, this is indeed a case where Pagan is wonderful! Jsp722 (talk) 23:20, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Martinevans123, I'm not quite so encouraged by Rklawton's mentorship, admin or no admin. Given the advice offered here, I don't feel that Rklawton is paying correct attention to the content of the article he has suggested has some form of 'redundant' information about who followed what religion. Given that the subject of the article (being Sviatoslav I of Kiev) is someone we don't know very much about, the length of the section on religious affiliations, and the context of a changing European politico-religious landscape, and the lack of any positive or negative connotations as to religious choices outside of an alliance-based predisposition, suggesting that any references to religion are redundant seems more like a WP:BADIDEA than a desire to improve the content of the article. Perhaps I have misunderstood Rklawton's reading of the article and he could enlighten me as to why "It's amazing to me that someone would link a person's religion to a generic article that essentially proves your assertion that its use is POV.". How is the article 'generic'? How is Sviatoslav I of Kiev's political and religious ideology a gratuitous use of mentions of his religion as opposed to that adopted by his mother and other political figures around him? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have gone way too far discussing content on an ANI page. It is irrelevant here whether or not “in the context of changing European politico-religious landscape” or “outside of an alliance-based predisposition” it is a “WP:BADIDEA” to discuss “Sviatoslav I of Kiev's political and religious ideology”, let alone the “religion adopted by his mother”. Not only irrelevant, but preposterous. Please ladies and gentlemen, cast your votes below, so that we can put an end to this farce, and so that those willing seriously to collaborate can work. Thanks! Jsp722 (talk) 13:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Question: in your rebuttals above, you've linked twice to simple wikt, but not to ordinary wikt where the primary defintioins are in no way pejoratuve? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Answer: For whatever reason, the editor of the simplewiki used “derogatory”, whereas the editor of the ordinary wiki used “pejorative”, in both cases to define“pagan”. Therefore, “pejorative”, which is about the same as “derogatory”, is found on the ordinary wiki at least 4 times, as quoted below:
  • “2. (by extension, pejorative) Savage, immoral, uncivilized, wild.”
  • “(civilisation): barbarian, barbaric (pejorative).”
  • “2. (by extension, pejorative, politically incorrect) An uncivilized or unsocialized person.”
  • “3. (pejorative, politically incorrect) Especially an unruly, badly educated child.”
  • Also, on the ordinary wiki, the word “pagan” appears precisely because it is an entry on the list of English pejoratives”.
As you can see, “pagan”, itself a demonized word, is used as a particularly perverse way of demonizing even “misbehaving” children; demon (Anc. Grk. “daimon”) itself being a satanized word; “Satan” (Hbr. “adversary”) itself being a devilized word; “Devil” (Sanskr. “deva”, “god”, “luminous being”) itself being an evilized word, and so forth.
The idea here is to make out of whoever does not toe the line of the Abrahamic “god” the very definition of “evil”, “evil” itself being defined in Abrahamic religions not as murdering and so forth, bit as opposing a murdering “god”. Jsp722 (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But those definitions are not the primary ones, are they. As you rightly point out, Jsp722, they are (2), (2) and (3) respectively. That doesn't make "pagan" necessarily a "demonized word." It depends on the context as to which meaning is intended, and thus whether or not it's inappropriate. I think that's why many people may see your crusade against use of this word as misguided. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is more or less like “shit”. Definition #1 is just feaces/feces, perfectly neutral; definition #2 is derogatory. The same applies to “ass”, and any number of slurs you can imagine. The devil is in definition #2. Besides, as already noted elsewhere, not only the word's overtones are derogatory, but its origin as well; it is a word meant from the start to be derogatory which became a name for those derogated. Therefore, in this case, the devil is in definition #1 as well. But, may I insist, this is a topic to be discussed on specific talkpages, maybe one day even on dispute resolution pages, but not here. Jsp722 (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't. That's just your interpretation. Insist all you like, but this is a general discussion based on the overall pattern of your contributions. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was suspecting this; please don't tell anyone, and just pretend that we don't know anything. Jsp722 (talk) 23:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not “just pretending that you don't know anything”. I’m suggesting that your comparison of the word “pagan” with the word “shit” is not a very good one. I’d say that “shit” is used more often than not in a derogatory way. It’s frequently used as an expletive, for example, which pagan never is. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You managed to miss your own point, which is that the derogation is most often in meaning #2, just this. And being an expletive is not a requirement for being derogatory, although calling a “misbehaving” child “pagan” is surely an expletive. Jsp722 (talk) 00:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I’m aware that words can have more than one meaning. And yes, meanings can sometimes be unclear, or can partly merge. But in this case, whereas I see a word with two separate meanings, you seem to see a word that has always carries a mixture of all possible meanings. I certainly didn’t say that being an expletive is a requirement for being derogatory. Calling a misbehaving child a “pagan” might be an insult, it might be bigotry, but it is certainly not “an expletive”. Additionally, I don’t think that the origin of a word has any significant place in its meaning in everyday use. Most people will use the word “pagan” without any knowledge at all of its etymology. I’m pretty sure that’s true for most words used by most speakers of modern English. So I think your overly-prescriptive approach is based on quite false premises there. Should we ban the word “influenza” because it had its origins in medieval astrology? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, this is not like “shit”. A word can only be disparaged as “derogatory” or as a "slur" when it is clearly and according to most and many sources, generally in such use. However, the word “pagan” is still used to describe something, even in fairly recent scholarly works about the subject. Your personal opinion about that word is therefore just that, when it comes to it’s use here on Wikipedia. That may change of course but that is not up to us as editors here. Maybe it’s not the most fortunate of words, but we can say that about some other words that are in general use as well. And for the time being it is in general use. Your offense may very well be, as derived from your above comments, just your personal opinion about the matter. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many slurs are embedded in language and in people's thoughts, deformed as they often are by millenia-old massive slurring propaganda and bestial beliefs transvestite as “religion” (no offence intended to beasts, please) most people hardly even perceive that they are slurring, a fact well described by the Microaggression Theory;
  • recency, laziness, carelessnes, and even claimed unawareness do not make a slur less of a slur, and unawareness is hardly a distinction for scholars;
  • your views about the sacred mission of Wikipedia editors as perpetrators and perpetuators of slurs is fascinating, but hardlly fit a disciplinary page; and
  • your noble view about the slur being the fault of the slurred brings tears to the eyes, and surely the world will be a better place when more people think like you!
Jsp722 (talk) 23:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're now telling us that "many slurs are embedded ... in people's thoughts"? Yes, I think a discussion about such things probably belongs elsewhere. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:19, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In the end, everything boils down to thought and language, I think. I don't know where you think this discussion belongs, but I see its placement on a disciplinary page is a tragicomic excrescence in Wikipedia. Jsp722 (talk) 03:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for repeating myself. I have also put this comment as a comment in the section below which may not have been the right place to write it. I’ve kept myself quiet a little because I had other things on my list, but I am a bit taken aback that we now get to vote on this. Is that the way it’s supposed to go? Anyway, what I would like to stress here once again is that, apart from the objectionable reasoning in the edit comments and the modus operandum of this user, his alternatives for the wording in question remains part of the problem. Whatever may or may not be wrong with a word or with the origins thereof, doesn’t make the alternatives any better and I do think that using language pertaining to linguistic or ethnolinguistic categories to describe religions or religious practices we don’t know an awful lot about is problematic. As are “exclusive” terms that begin with “non”. A word cannot help how it came about and who thought of using it first. And while that can of course be debatable it doesn't need to be problematic as long as it’s meaning is clear and as long as it is in general accepted use in matters pertaining to what that word is about. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I find your objections, as also Irina Harpy's, perfectly legitimate, and worth careful scrutiny and discussion. Personally, I would be happy to scrutinize and discuss them. Besides, even though most people until now on this thread have indeed agreed on the inappropriateness of terms such as “pagan” and “paganism”, I concede that there is room for much more discussion, taking into consideration further objections such as those brought by both of you. However, this ANI is clearly not the place for such discussions, which should happen, at least initially, on specific articles' talkpages — which did never happen until now, at least as far as I am aware. In the extreme case of unresolvable disagreement there is still the possibility of starting one or several dispute resolutions. But anyway, this is definitely not the topic for a disciplinary page. Therefore, may I propose that from now on we all refrain from discussing the terms “pagan” and “paganism” on this thread, leaving such discussion to the talkpages of each specific article. And, as you asked, now that we have a votation, “Is that the way it’s supposed to go?” Jsp722 (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your pattern of editing has led a number of other editors to think that a general discussion on the use of those words might be more efficient than leaving discussion "to the talkpages of each specific article". You seem to think that those words have no proper place in this encyclopedia at all? Where would a general discussion be best placed? At WP:DR perhaps? But then there are also editors who think your approach to editing itself warrants some kind of sanction. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Surely words such as “pagan” and “paganism” have a proper place in Wikipedia, for instance on Lists of pejorative terms for people. Otherwise such usage of words should be checked at each specific occurrence, in order to ascertain the best replacement. Since “pagan” and “paganism” are just generic, blanket, and on top of it indefinite words, and this another of their essential shortcomings, each occurrence may require a different replacement and rephrasing. There are many partially or entirely distinct religions and sets of religions indiscriminately labeled as “paganism”, and thus no room for a simplistic “one size fits all” here.
As to the best place for discussing the issue, while I believe it should be each article's specific talkpage or, in case of need, a dispute resolution page, but never a disciplinary page, others may indeed think otherwise. Since I am no administrator, this is actually not my problem; I just discuss the topic with whoever might be interested on it, wherever it is decided by administrators.
The unasked question, however, is whether or not this topic, rather than my “pattern of editing” is a disciplinary issue warranting some kind of sanction. Probably those favorable to the indiscriminate usage of the words “pagan” and “paganism” will tend to see any scrutiny as a disciplinary issue, while those favorable to scrutiny will tend to see the topic as something to be freely discussed on talkpages, and anyway no good reason for any kind of disciplinary action.
In general, however, I believe that treating any debatable topic as a disciplinary issue is an unhealthy sign for Wikipedia, but my contribution cannot go beyond just offering this remark.
Jsp722 (talk) 02:29, 18 January 2016 (U TC)
I don't see anyone here advocating "indiscriminate usage of the words “pagan” and “paganism”". And I'd be very surprised if anyone ever would deliberately have such an agenda. I would suspect that misuse of those words, if that misuse can indeed be agreed by consensus, will probably have grown up incrementally and unnoticed over many years. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The very usage of the Christian slurs “pagan” and “paganism”, as already extensively shown and largely agreed upon, is itself indiscriminate by nature, which is by the way the very nature of slurs in general, specially of those intended to support genocides, such as those perpetrated by Christianity.
It would be very difficult to perpetrate relentless genocides against countless peoples and cultures throughout two millenia without an agenda. Surely a Ku Klux Klan member has an agenda when they call people perceived as dark-skinned “niggers”.
The bestiality of a behavior is often unnoticed, specially by perpetrators. Islamic State fanatics decapitating, drowning, burying, and burning alive a “kafir” (“disbeliever”, the Muslim word for “pagan”) probably do not realize the bestiality of their own behavior: rather, they think it is pure behavior recommended by their scriptures (which happens to be exactly the case).
The Christian usage of the terms “pagan” and “paganism” are in every respect similar and paralell to the Muslim usage of terms such as “kafir” and “shirk”; they are the derogatory epithets given to “disbelievers”, in order to justify their physical and cultural elimination. And it is not less so just because it is “unnoticed” by some, or because the usage grew up incrementally over many years.
Another similar word is “apostate”, which was for centuries used by Christian hate-propagandizers, for instance, to name in a derogatory way the Roman emperor Julian, which they called “Julian the Apostate”. After a long and heated debated, folks decided that 1700 years of slur were not enough to justify the continuation of such despicable usage on Wikipedia, and moved the page from “Julian the Apostate” to “Julian (emperor)”, and the world did not come to an end.
By the way, that fruitful debate happened in a civilized way, without any threat of disciplinary action against anyone, although it changed such a millenia-old usage. The same should apply to the current discussion about “pagan” and “paganism”, no matter how many pages might be potentially affected by refreshing views on the topic.
Indeed, on each page someone may raise objections, and these objections will have to be discussed, and if there is no agreement there will be a dispute resolution by a neutral party. And there are 1.150.000 Google results for the search “Wikipedia pagan”, plus 450.000 results for the search “Wikipedia paganism”.
Therefore, phobic reactions and accusations that my “modus operandi” is somehow disruptive make no sense at all, specially because my 5 or so edits (please check and correct if you have time) have all been largely found to be good and praised as better than the original “pagan” or “paganism”, even by experienced and learned editors, on this very page.
Therefore, dear Martinevans123, please cast your vote so that this ridiculous disciplinary incident, regretted even by its very initiator, comes to its deserved end.
Jsp722 (talk) 03:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You say this discussion "doesn't belong here", but then add another huge wall of your own carefully constructed argument. I see we've now moved on to "niggers". And you've made just "5 or so edits"? I'm sure closure of this thread does not depend in any way on my !voting, dear Jsp722. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not me deciding where this discussion takes place. Never heard that giving an example means “moving” to another topic. Twenty-seven edits on the pagan thing since 2009, according to last count, as detailed below. Of course it depends on you, Wikipedia is supposed to be collaborative. Jsp722 (talk) 03:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My edit on this place seems to have been inadvertently deleted by this edit I'm going to resore it here again. Sorry if there was any mistake. As far as I can see the word “pagan” is descriptive of some religions or religious practices we know of or know very little about in a historical sense. And it has been and is still used widely to describe that phenomenon or set of phenomena. Of course it has also been used in a negative sense, but I (and many others that still try to use in a purely descriptive sense) don’t think the word should be disparaged just for that. The word “Deva”, the Indian word for “God” may very well be the origin of the word “Devil” (and it wasn't an Abrahamic religion that made it so) but it is also a cognate of “Dieux” (French) and “Deity” (English). Revivalists of pre Christian religions call themselves Neopaganist! What I mean to say is that if a multitude of sources show that a word is clearly objectionable, we, here on Wikipedia, would seriously have to consider that. On the other hand we are dealing here with a word that, for now, is in general use to describe a particular phenomenon. We don’t get to judge that. Others might do so in the future, but that is not the task of an editor in Wikipedia. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for any inadvertent indeed deletion; now I'm afraid of reverting it and making things even more complicate, so I leave as it is. Now short answers, so that people may concentrate on all-important disciplinary issues without losing their time with unimportant content issues.
  • The argument of “knowing little” about “paganism” is hardly a justification for the naming.
  • Looks like Abrahamic religions have lots of Iranian roots, including the demonized “deva” thing, plus ressurrection, final judgment, militancy, and so forth.
  • As words clearly show, “Dieu” is actually the “Devil”!
  • Revivalist introjection of slurs is hardly an argument, specially because such a folk as Sviatoslav I was hardly a revivalist; please note that American Blacks proudly call themselves “Niggas”, adapted from the racist, derogatory ”Niggers”.
  • Finally, your whole case for defining Wikipedia as a tool for perpetrating and perpetuating slur, while interesting, can be appreciated in other places, hardly on this ANI page.
Jsp722 (talk) 23:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Temporary topic ban

At this point, I'd say Jsp722 does need some sort of wake-up call and an at-least temporary sanction, as his style of editing and interaction is incompatible with Wikipedia's pillars of civility and neutrality, and his contentiousness and tendentiousness (including this latest salvo [70]) are veering into WP:NOTHERE. There is far too much deliberate time-wasting and personal attacking going on here in this thread, rather than a willingness to actively resolve the issue. I think a six-month topic ban on "pagan" and "paganism", broadly construed, would probably be the best route. Anyone agree? The topic could be extended to include other areas if the behavior simply shifts. After the topic ban is over, some sort of mentoring might be in order. Softlavender (talk) 05:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support six-month topic ban, as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 05:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This looks like a content dispute, unnecessarily brought to teh drama boards, in which the content issue has largely been resolved in favor of Jsp722's position. Good faith editing and failure to properly grovel in the face of the almighty power of the admins are not good reasons for any kind of disciplinary action. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for the same reasons above. Jsp722 (talk) 12:16, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Just for your information, the issue is already well-resolved for quite a while, thanks to the active contribution of many users, while your only contribution has been your persistent, disruptive bid to make a tempest in a teapot, demanding disciplinary measures on the basis of trifling issues, such as me referring to my own edits as “my humble edits”. Jsp722 (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it is not normally allowed for !votes from subjects of proposed bans, when the !vote is about them. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 01:03, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If so, the one proposing the ban should not be able to vote either, as the vote is about their proposal Jsp722 (talk) 12:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not exactly how it works over here. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 20:12, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So be it. Everyday we learn something new. Still, giving double weight to accusation and zero weight to defense sounds a bit unbalanced, if I'm allowed to say so.
Besides, apart from medieval, inquisitorial judgments (and any deliberation, even consensual, is a judgment), the accuser should never judge, to start with because of their natural bias in favor of their own accusation.
The name “Inquipedia” has already been suggested on this thread to fit such medieval standards.
And, as you can see, love for the genocidal slur “pagan” and love for inquisitorial behavior seem to go always, and once again, hand in hand!
Jsp722 (talk) 02:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The discussion would sit far more comfortably at DR. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 12:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A topic ban is necessary when an editor refuses to budge on one particular issue. Jsp has shown a willingness to learn and has accepted at least one mentor. Wikipedia has several noted "single issue" editors who have helped Wikipedia move forward, and I'm confident that Jsp can successfully join their ranks. And, of course, Jsp has raised an excellent point about the use of the word Pagan in our articles. Many of our articles would be much better served if we could specify a subject's religion with reliable sources rather than label it with a term that could mean almost anything. Rklawton (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • His response seemed to cast the meaning of the term "mentor" in a new light?Martinevans123 (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not new. Learning what not to do from the mistakes of others is surely a very old idea. Jsp722 (talk) 00:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that this is not the style of mentoring that Rklawton had in mind. That's not to say that many people, myself included, don't come to this page to try and learn from the mistakes of others. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Probably I misunderstood what you meant; sometimes you are a bit esoteric. Anyway, if you are interested on more details on the style of mentoring implemented by Rklawton, you are welcome on my talkpage. Jsp722 (talk) 01:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let's leave Eric out of this, shall we. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC) [reply]
  • Comment: I’ve kept myself quiet a little because I had other things on my list, but I am a bit taken aback that we now get to vote on this. Is that the way it’s supposed to go? Anyway, what I would like to stress here once again is that, apart from the objectionable reasoning in the edit comments and the modus operandum of this user, his alternatives for the wording in question remains part of the problem. Whatever may or may not be wrong with a word or with the origins thereof, doesn’t make the alternatives any better and I do think that using language pertaining to linguistic or ethnolinguistic categories to describe religions or religious practices we don’t know an awful lot about is problematic. As are “exclusive” terms that begin with “non”. A word cannot help how it came about and who thought of using it first. And while that can of course be debatable it doesn't need to be problematic as long as it’s meaning is clear and as long as it is in general accepted use in matters pertaining to what that word is about. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I find your objections, as also Irina Harpy's, perfectly legitimate, and worth careful scrutiny and discussion. Personally, I would be happy to scrutinize and discuss them. Besides, even though most people until now on this thread have indeed agreed on the inappropriateness of terms such as “pagan” and “paganism”, I concede that there is room for much more discussion, taking into consideration further objections such as those brought by both of you. However, this ANI is clearly not the place for such discussions, which should happen, at least initially, on specific articles' talkpages — which did never happen until now, at least as far as I am aware. In the extreme case of unresolvable disagreement there is still the possibility of starting one or several dispute resolutions. But anyway, this is definitely not the topic for a disciplinary page. Therefore, may I propose that from now on we all refrain from discussing the terms “pagan” and “paganism” on this thread, leaving such discussion to the talkpages of each specific article. And, as you asked, now that we have a votation, “Is that the way it’s supposed to go?Jsp722 (talk) 00:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support six-month topic ban. Now it seems to be that their modus operandi is to go to every article where "pagan" appears (presumably excluding the article Paganism) and replace it with other words to that effect. The problem with this approach is that article descriptions of religions should be based on reliable sources, not POV pushing as to the suitability of the word. From the above walls of text I feel it is unlikely that consensus will be reached on these issues. Also, I simply don't believe in the real world that "pagan" is particularly pejorative, with organizations such as the Pagan Federation proud to use the term. Therefore I would support this restriction. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 00:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
According to a Google search, there are 1.150.000 occurrences of “Wikipedia + pagan”, plus 454.000 of “Wikipedia + paganism”. I have edited some 5 instances (you may go through my history and correct the number), all of them with detailed edit summaries. When my changes were opposed, I did not engage in any edit wars, rather waiting for the opportunity to engage in discussions on talkpages. All of my changes have been scrutinized on this thread and found to be good, despite some criticism to my edit summaries, which I have accepted. Therefore your attitude seems to be a bit exaggerated and alarmist, and actually tending dogmatically to impose wording to wikipedia without allowing for the possibility of discussion, which adds to the weakness of your argument in support of it, since, after all, people like Sviatoslav I were not “neopagans” anyway. Jsp722 (talk) 12:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you've slowed down it may be due to this active thread. But it is clear from your above comments that you consider "pagan" a pejorative word, which you would like to see expunged from Wikipedia. I disagree with both of these points. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 15:23, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Which means that you want to impose a disciplinary sanction just because of a content disagreement. Like sending Galileo to burn at the the stake just because the Earth was flat. Congratulations. Maybe we rename Wikipedia to Inquipedia! Jsp722 (talk) 00:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's ok, it seems that Galileo and his mates were all pagans. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe just “tendentious”. Jsp722 (talk) 04:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Jsp722 has useful contributions to make, but is making them in a way that disrupts the encyclopaedic project. I would suggest mentorship on discussion style, if Jsp722 will accept it, first. Would Rklawton be willing to lead this? Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
From my side already gladly accepted; from Rklawton's side he is willing to lead and already effectively leading, as one can be see on my talkpage. Jsp722 (talk) 12:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I could ask if Rklawton has the time and inclination to take this on formally? Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Richard, following your suggestion, I have accepted Rklawton's “mentorship” in an informal way, because I have learned to appreciate his human qualities, knowledge, and skills. I see him, as I could see others, rather as a beneficial friend capable of helping making my contributions better. However, I'm not at all interested on accepting any “formal mentoring”, or anything which might restrict my legitimate freedom as an editor. If this means that you will vote for my ban, please vote for it by all means.
Me and other users such as David Eppstein and Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi obviously have different opinions from yours about what does it mean to be “disruptive” and what should be or not treated as a disciplinary issue, and anyway I am vastly used not to be on the “winning” side. Wikipedia has countless other topics of my interest, and even if I am banned from editing all of them I still enjoy the good fortune of having plenty of rewarding activities in life. Therefore, please cast your vote so that this tragicomic incident, which should never have started, and which was regretted with perplexity by its very own initiator, comes to its well-deserved end.
Jsp722 (talk) 04:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have agreed to help mentor Jsp with the caveats he has noted above. This is not a "formal" relationship - just a collegial one between two editors who wish to see Wikipedia continually improved. Rklawton (talk) 05:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. I suppose my main criteria for success would be for Jsp722 to discuss in a style that doesn't needlessly irritate people who tend to agree with his substantive points, and doesn't needlessly distract people who tend to disagree with them. Softlavender, would you think this a good point to close this thread, or are any further actions required? Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the reasoning of User:Mrjulesd. A cooling off period on the topic would be a good idea, so the contributor can practice his interaction in less confrontational areas. --Jahaza (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Quite possibly. If I were mentoring (I'm not volunteering) I'd probably suggest some sort of cooling off period. But I'd be happy to leave that to a voluntary arrangement with an experienced editor such as Rklawton. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:38, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Softlavender. Having seen this issue from both sides, and seen the extent to which Jsp722 seems prone to disregard WP:SOAPBOX, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and similar guidelines, that time might allow Jsp722 to gain needed perspective on the issues leading to tendentious editing regarding the word pagan. A word to Jsp722: please consider taking some time to study the pagan communities who embrace the term to describe themselves. Dar Williams' excellent "The Pagans and the Christians" on YouTube might help desensitize you to the word 'pagan,' and convince you that it is far from always pejorative. And please take advantage of the offers of help from more experienced editors here. loupgarous (talk) 10:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's funny how accusations of “tendentiousness” pop-up immediately as soon as someone just questions the hyper-tendentious slur “pagan”! I'm sure the same happens in Saudi Arabia or in al-Raqqa when someone questions equivalent slurs such as “kafir” or “shirk”. American Blacks embraced the slurring “nigger” as “nigga”, but “nigger” is not the less slurring. Besides, Sviatoslav I of Kiev or Christian-massacred South-American Inca or Quichua people were hardly “Neopagans”, and should hardly be described according to “neopagan” fashion. While a word does not have to be “always” pejorative in order to be a slur, the fact remains that the “pagan” word was born and has consistently been used for almost two millenia as the main Christian religious slur to justify physical and cultural genocide, to which you appear to be rather desensitized. Furthermore, the “pagan” word says nothing, as it is just a negation, an indefinite generality, a fuzzy word for “non-Christian” (and many other possible negations, as already extensively discussed above, which just adds to the uselesness of the word), and which says nothing about what is supposed to be described. Jsp722 (talk) 04:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentJsp722 is now showing 'red'. Is this an indication that the user's retired his username permanently or deleted it? loupgarous (talk) 10:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • No it does not mean that. From the looks of it, User:Jsp722 should have always been red. Since they have never created a userpage the link to their userpage shows up red. -- GB fan 10:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, after wading through numerous walls of text, I've come to the opinion of weak support. Jsp722 believes "pagan" to be pejorative. I don't think it is important whether it is or is not, but Jsp722's belief is important. The usage of the word "pagan" can be, and has been vague in some very clear cases (like "Norse religion") and some where reasonable minds can disagree (like "followers of traditional religions" here). Making the encyclopedia more accurate is a good thing. However, it seems that Jsp722 is engaging in this editing to get rid of the pejorative word without regard for whether the instance of its inclusion is reasonable or not (see the edit summaries in particular: [71] [72] [73] [74]). Further, and probably more concerning it seems that Jsp722's editing style is a little less than civil as SoftLavander has pointed out [75]. While I respect that resonable minds can disagree on whether the edits are an improvement in specific instances, and single purpose accounts can be helpful, I think on balance, Jsp722's pattern of editing is causing more disruption than improvement, and a break from topics in the subject and mentoring on how to edit in less heated areas would benefit them when they are able to return after a few weeks time. I think 6 months might be too much, but I don't have a particular alternative. Wugapodes (talk) 21:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To briefly clarify, my reasoning is not simply in response to the removal of "pagan" but Jsp722's larger pattern of tendentious editing. While those few edits relating to "pagan" which they enumerated below wouldn't cause me too much pause alone, they are part of a pattern that seems to show me that they are not here to build an encyclopedia but to righting great wrongs. A pattern that is not recent but has extended back to 2010: paganism-related in 2010paganism related in 2010[76]paganism related in 2011something about whitewashing in 2011changing of Burma to Myanmar. A number of these edits were helpful and improvements, but as I said above, the way in which Jsp722 goes about them is tendentious and causing disruption. As such, I still support a temporary topic ban, not because of the specific recent removal of pagan but because of the larger pattern of editing. Wugapodes (talk) 00:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If so, let's change the proposal, from ”temporary topic ban” to “permanent user ban”. I can improve my “civility”, I can offer smoother edit summaries, I can be less rude and sneering, I can refrain from personal attacks, I can gladly accept mentorship, I can learn and abide by Wikipedia rules, I can do or make an effort to do nearly everything I've been recommended to by both sympathetic and unsympathetic editors. What I cannot, however, is change what you call my “pattern of editing”. As already remarked elsewhere, I am the avid reader, and the occasional editor. I read out of curiosity about the topic, but if I find something which I believe to be unfitting, I contribute an alternative, with a justification. If it is not accepted, so be it; I have never entered edit wars. Most of my edits have been accepted, some thanked, even praised; after 1700 years, for instance, the Roman emperor Julian is not anymore the “Apostate”, and so on. This is my way of collaborating; if this does not fit Wikipedia, please kick me out by all means. Now to say that I am “tendentious” just because I changed the colonial name of a country for its actual, legal, official name; or because I stated that a person, not a company, offers bribes; or because I replace hyper-tendentious slur “pagan” with neutral “follower of traditional Slavic, German, Semitic, Greek, or Quichua religion” is beyond me. Maybe I'm just in the wrong place! Jsp722 (talk) 03:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you're going to quote me, please quote me correctly. I said "pattern of tendentious editing". You seem to be missing my point that yes, in isolation, all of these actions would seem to be perfectly fine, it is them together with your edit summaries and agenda that raise them from a normal "pattern of editing" to a pattern of tendentious editing. In response to an editor arguing you are here to right great wrongs regarding the term "pagan", you say "It's funny how accusations of “tendentiousness” pop-up immediately as soon as someone just questions the hyper-tendentious slur “pagan”!" which doesn't instill confidence in me that you are here to build an encyclopedia. You say "I can improve my “civility”, I can offer smoother edit summaries, I can be less rude and sneering, I can refrain from personal attacks, I can gladly accept mentorship, I can learn and abide by Wikipedia rules, I can do or make an effort to do nearly everything I've been recommended to by both sympathetic and unsympathetic editors." And I believe that, and I hope you do. However I support the proposal because I want you to prove you can do that in a different topic area before returning to this one. Wugapodes (talk) 17:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wugapodes says: “If you're going to quote me, please quote me correctly.”
And there we go with a new barrage of misinformation and tendentious accusations. In your frantic attempt to disqualify me, now you even falsely accuse me of “misquoting” you! Please have a look in the last sentence of your above post dated 00:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC), where you say with all the letters:
“As such, I still support a temporary topic ban, not because of the specific recent removal of pagan but because of the larger pattern of editing”.
Is it good enough for you or shall I make it in colors?
Wugapodes says: “I said "pattern of tendentious editing”.”
This you had said before, in the start of the same post. Now you want to decide even which part of your ungrounded accusations I have to quote, is it?
Anyway, the meaning is the same, because meanwhile everybody knows that you tendentiously want to frame me as “tendentious”. And the fact that you want to make a tempest in a teapot because of such a trifling “misquotation” puts in doubt your own good faith here.
Add to this that you have cavilously insinuated in your post dated 21:01, 20 January 2016 that mine is a “single purpose account”, obviously without showing any evidence for it. Your slurring insinuation having been exposed by my post dated 22:04, 20 January 2016, you later, closemouthedly stroke through your defaming insinuation, without having at least the decency to apologize.
Wugapodes says: “You seem to be missing my point that yes, in isolation, all of these actions would seem to be perfectly fine, it is them together with your edit summaries and agenda that raise them from a normal "pattern of editing" to a pattern of tendentious editing.”
How great! I've been accused of every single possible violation of Wikipedia pillars, rules, and guidelines, and now you say that all of my actions “seem to be perfectly fine”! What a waste this thread! I feel the joy and gratitude of Kash Delano or Bruce Lisker, who spent decades in jail only to be informed later that “all of their actions seemed perfectly fine”! Now finally I can relax, see my family again, and walk and dance in the streets without fearing the police!
But wait! Those engineering false accusations against the innocent did not give up! Now a new, unheard of, much more serious accusation against Jsp722 comes to the fore! While all and any of their edits “in isolation” seem to be “perfectly fine”, when put together they show Jsp722's actual agenda, an undeniable attempt to transform Wikipedia into the soapobox of Jsp722's sinister, “tendentious” ideologies!
The evidence is clear: Besides the enormous amount of three “pagan”-related edits in the short period of two years (2010-2011) — a furious average of one edit every eight months —, in the annus horribilis 2011 Jsp722 has also changed the name of Myanmar from its colonial name “Burma”, still favored by disgruntled ex-colonizers, to the actual, legal, official, UN accepted name “Myanmar” in an article's body! So dangerous this sneaky subversive is that even the main article itself was eventually moved from “Burma” to “Myanmar”! High time to ring the alarm bells!
Julian, the Roman emperor, is not anymore “the Apostate”, Myanmar is not anymore “Burma”, and soon “pagans” will be identified by meaningful names rather than by blanket genocide-supporting slurring! What will remain of the world as we knew it? The evidence is clear that Jsp722 is for years secretly subverting Wikipedia, but now me, Wugapodes, the smart one who does not recognize even his own quotes, caught them!
Wugapodes says: “In response to an editor arguing you are here to right great wrongs regarding the term "pagan", you say "It's funny how accusations of “tendentiousness” pop-up immediately as soon as someone just questions the hyper-tendentious slur “pagan”!" which doesn't instill confidence in me that you are here to build an encyclopedia.
Then according to you the hyper-tendentious, millenia-old genocide-supporting slur “pagan” does not prove that those insisting on its usage are even a little bit tendentious, but me calling Myanmar “Myanmar” proves that I am tendentious, is it? And how can I prove that you are not tendentious?
Wugapodes says: [...] I support the proposal because I want you to prove you can do that in a different topic area before returning to this one.
To start with, I don't see any reason showing that I have to prove anything to anyone, specially not to you, given your aforementioned blunders and blatant inconsistencies.
Besides, this statement contradicts your whole quibble above. You said with all the letters that “in isolation” my actions “seem to be perfectly fine”. This means that all of my edits individually, including the ones about “pagan” and “paganism” are perfectly fine. Why now do you want to impose a sanction related specifically to such terms?
Moreover, you say that what is troubling are not my edits taken in isolation, but rather what you see as my general behavior, my “agenda”, my general “pattern of tendentious editing”. If so, why a ban only on “pagan”-related topics? Indeed, you should support a general ban, because of my larger “pattern of editing”, shouldn't you?
Furthermore, which “different topics”, not included in your “ban”, would you suggest before my return to “pagan” and “paganism”? Since my “agenda” is general, overarching, your proposed, limited ban, would be rather ineffectual. Indeed, I could still pursue my sinister designs editing countless other topics.
In such case, only a full ban from editing Wikipedia, or a full block on my account, would do.
Jsp722 (talk) 02:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Starting on February 11, 2009 and ending on January 7, 2016 (when this incident started), 83 months in all, I could find exactly 27 edited paged where edits were performed by me replacing words such as “pagan” and “paganism” with descriptive phrases such as “Norse religion” or “ancestral Slavic religion”. This makes an average of 0,32 edited pages per month, or one edit every three months. Recent edits were as follows:
1 Dazbog
2 Prussian Mythology
3 Germanic paganism
4 Old Prussians
5 Kaaba
6 Quraysh
7 Hubal
8 Sviatoslav I of Kiev
9 Varangians
10 Gamla Uppsala
11 Himyarite Kingdom
Edit #1 was “thanked” by the learned and experient editor Ivan Štambuk.
Edit #9 was praised and supported as “entirely appropriate” by barnstarred user ScrapIronIV, as seen above on the main thread.
Edit #2 and edit #5 were both praised as “an improvement” by multi-barnstarred user Richard Keatinge, as seen above on the main thread.
Edit #8 was initially rejected by multi-awarded veteran editor Iryna Harpy, who notwithstanding later accepted the possibility of a suitable replacement for ”pagan” with the following words: “We'll see whether we can table a proposal on the article's talk page that other editors find acceptable”, as it can be seen from my talkpage.
All of the remaining 22 mentioned edited pages are similar. Besides, among the total 27 edited pages I could find only 5 which have been reverted by other editors in the last almost 7 years, until Hebel, the initiator of the current thread, at once reverted several of the most recent ones. However, even this user regretted the direction taken by the current incident with the words: “but I am a bit taken aback that we now get to vote on this. Is that the way it’s supposed to go?”, showing vivid willingness to discuss the topic outside disciplinary constraints, as one can see above, by the end of the main thread.
I hope that this objective data may help to put the current discussion in its due perspective. I'm no “vandal” (itself an ethnic slur) indiscriminately destroying Wikipedia pages . Rather, I'm the avid reader and the occasional editor; and whenever I edit I offer substantial edit summaries justifying my changes, without ever having entered any edit wars.
And no, mine is not a “single purpose account”, as suggested by Wugapodes above; my edits since February 11, 2009, have ranged from ancient Israel, to Sumeria, to human sacrifice, to Western philosophers such as Cassirer, Heidegger and Bergson, to Jainism, to Amorites, to Yoga, to Hindu conceptions of godhead, to American pharma companies, to German historians, to Scythians, to South Indian monasteries, to fighter jets, to Tibetan oracles, to the Greek Delphi, to Dionysian Mysteries, to Hebrew dynasties, to Epicureans, to Indian atomic theories, to Buddhist discourses, to Mongolian alphabets, to Tibetan dissidents, to Belarussian statecraft, to Chinese warlords, to Kashmiri pandits, to Kartvelian-speaking people, to Icelandic alphabets, to Iranian newspapers, to Buddhist iconography, to Mongolian Communist leaders, to Tibetan theocratic hierarchy, to Yazidi people, to Hypsistarians (this one was about the “pagan” word, in 2010, and is still there), to computer viruses, to Chinese geography, to Turkic generals, to Tsakonian peoples, to Iranian religions in the Himalayas, to country nomenclature, to Buddhist lineages, ritual and philosophy, to Jewish kabbalists, to Roman law, to Spiritism, to Norman kings, to Syrian politics, to uranium mining, to Greek goddesses, to old Indian metaphysical treatises, to Russian writers, to Central Asian demonology, to Manchurian statecraft, to Slavic gods, to Ukrainian politics, to Vedic gods, to Chinese ethnic minorities, to Portuguese navigators, to Tibetan philosophers, to Lithuanian monarchs, to Émile Durkheim, to Central Brazilian Native tribes, to even the already discussed articles were the “pagan” thing came about.
And, as to the suggested “cooling off”, it is already in place, both because I have refrained from any similar edits on the topic since the start of this thread, and because other more knowledgeable and skilled editors such as my informal mentor Rklawton, and Iryna Harpy, have already shown willingness to refine ideas and coordinate any future edit proposals on the topic, with ongoing discussions on my talkpage open for anyone interested on them.
Jsp722 (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I've been watching this discussion for a few days now and I feel it has been going on for too long. A six-month topic ban would be way over the top. It seems this user has a lot to contribute and has shown willingness to achieve consensus, let him get on with it. If it turns out mentoring doesn't help with improving issues with collaboration (edit comments and such), a temporary topic ban could still be revisited. Robby.is.on (talk) 00:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tend to agree. Editor seems to have become progressively more amenable to discussion. Agree with him that this is essentially a content dispute (over the use of two specific words). This thread really doesn't need to get any longer. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Editor is just here to argue. Alternatively, a permanent block, as requested below, might be more suitable. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Suport full block, as per editor's own suggestion. See below Martinevans123 (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Oppose. [EDIT] Support I'm reticent to involve myself with mentoring on a complex level, but discussions with Jsp722 suggest to me that the editor has moved on from WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, and has demonstrated a willingness to collaborate with other editors. I'm certainly aware of the fact that pagan/paganism is frequently used as a soft/lazy option instead of using the opportunity to make articles more informative. Despite the fact that, in most instances, it isn't used as a malicious or biased term, Jsp722 strikes me as being prepared to do some research in order to enhance the content. Should the editor go OTT, it will become evident soon enough and the prospect of a topic ban could be revisited. Rklawton is on a break, but was certainly willing to act as the primary mentor. Having seen the example Mrjulesd pointed out in the section below, I realise that I've inadvertently aided and abetted Jsp722 by pointing him/her to more articles to censor. Strike my support for this disruptive, POINTy editor. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:16, 22 January 2016 (UTC) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Censor"? What has all of this got to do with censorship? This discussion here is getting more absurd by the day. Jsp722's changes have been well-reasoned and in this discussion everything Jsp722 has written (including his latest response to Mrjulesd below) is more sound than anything I have read from those trying to block him from editing. Robby.is.on (talk)
@Robby.is.on: Technically, trying to get rid of words because you just don't like themis censorship. In the majority of cases, the term "pagan" is not being used as a pejorative. If there are cases where the use of the term is obviously negatively geared, there are an abundance of editors with enough good sense to discern between WP:WEASEL and terminology used by reliable sources. Wikipedia needs editors who are WP:HERE to develop and improve content, to to wage crusades against perceived enemies of the WP:TRUTH. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Iryna Harpy: So, if I don't like the word "nigger" I should better leave as well? After all the rational arguments Jsp722 has given implying his main argument is "I just don't like it" is really not very fair at all and does not constitute "Good faith". If you don't think the word "pagan" is used as a pejorative, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't think you can just presume that's the consensus. Regarding all the WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS accusations: Some people are more passionate about certain things than others, I think it is wrong to keep holding that against them when they have clearly shown to be open to discussion and achieving consensus. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:01, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers for your opinion, Robby.is.on. You've had personal dealing with the user on articles... where? Sorry, but that's an appalling analogy. 1) There is an article on Nigger; 2) No one is going to ban the use of "Muslim" because of frequent pejorative use, and certainly far more broadly touted in the media as being an evil thing. I can't even remember the last time I saw "pagan" being used in the same derogatory sense. We're living in the 21st century, not the 19th century. There's "passionate", then there's WP:BATTLEGROUND, disruptive, uncivil, and lacking in the ability to back down when you've pushed it too far and feel justified in being continuously abusive and dismissive of other editors. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Talks about the “pagan” topic are closed, Iryna. You came too late to the party. Besides, you've had personal dealings with me on my talkpage, which makes you ineligible to express any opinions here. Jsp722 (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't. LjL (talk) 00:32, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are entitled to your opinion, but this doesn't change anything. Jsp722 (talk) 00:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Iryna Harpy: I didn't realise personal dealings with a user on articles were required to afford an opinion on public goings-on here on ANI and elsewhere on Wikipedia. The point I was trying to make with what you call an "appalling analogy" is: 1. How does the disapproval of a undescriptive word such as "pagan" disqualify someone from editing?, 2. Who's to say that "pagan" might become an inappropriate word like "nigger" after rational debate / as Western society shakes off more religious baggage? To be clear: I'm disappointed how combative Jsp722 has become in the last couple of days. Still, I believe that bad faith as well as crude accusations have brought out the bad in Jsp722. Robby.is.on (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: full ban from editing any article on Wikipedia.

A partial ban, as discussed, would be thoroughly ineffectual, futile, because my sinister agenda aiming at subverting Wikipedia and destabilizing the world as we know it, together with my lack of civility, would inevitably just shift to countless other contentious topics, and I would anyway disruptively return to the “pagan” topic as soon as the ban would expire. Therefore, there is hardly another effective solution except for my permanent, irrevocable ban from editing any article on Wikipedia, or even better a full, permanent block on my account. Jsp722 (talk) 02:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seems I was mistaken. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
5THWHEEL. Calm down and sort things out. I'm sure some editors commenting here will be more than happy to see you go. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 16:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gee, thanks, QEDK. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm horribly confused. Is this the sarcastic "Gee" or the surprised "Gee"? --QEDK (T 📖 C) 17:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As usual for me, it's both. You were replying to me? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 19:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm perfectly, calm, thanks. But when do you want me to go? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha, no need to go Face-tongue.svg. I messed it up, my bad. That was definitely for Jsp722 (my 1st message). The 2nd message (where I asked you the meaning) was meant for you, hence I said that it was a reply for you. I hope all's clear. Face-grin.svg --QEDK (T 📖 C) 19:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Shucks, I was going to dramatically "retire" in a fit of petulant frenzy. Now I guess I'll have to wait, at least until this thread is closed. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC) [reply]
Comment As a possible compromise could you only replace "pagan" if you can find reliable sources describing said religion as something else? As it stands it's making articles less comprehensible. For example changing "pagan" to "ancestral beliefs"[77] is less precise, which ancestors? Even replacing it with "non-Abrahamic religions" would be an improvement on ancestral beliefs, but again it is less precise as it is not a perfect interchange, read the article for why. I simple don't believe you're improving articles by doing this, or that pagan is pejorative as the term is proudly used by many neo-pagan organizations. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 17:54, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect Jsp722 would find a topic ban far more tantalising than a full ban. I think he'd find such an outcome far more difficult to comply with. Mere mention of the "p-word" is like lighting the blue touch paper. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever is behind your shocking attitude, you have just confessed that your purpose here is definitely not to build any encyclopedia, but to feel pleasure inflicting what you see as psychological pain on other editors, as more “tantalizing” to them, thus maliciously encouraging the outcome you believe to be “far more difficult” for them “to comply with”.
This attitude is not only sick, but also violates the whole spirit of Wikipedia. It is a disgrace for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a place for learning and sharing knowledge, not a place for compensating for personal frustrations. I believe that you need serious reeducation in order fruitfully to remain in this community, if this is what you wish.
As to me, I'm neutral about outcomes. As already remarked by Richard Keatinge, I may have indeed a penchant for fixing buzzwords, even if this is not a deliberate program or “agenda”. “Pagan” is far from being the first on Wikipedia, and, depending on outcomes, will not be the last. I don't have to edit and discuss personally this or any another buzzword so that changes are implemented successfully. Other equally controversial buzzwords have been successfully changed after my edits, but without my participation in the ensuing debates. And there are countless buzzwords, which means that the potential joy of fixing them is infinite. A partial, topic ban will just add more sauce to the discussion, which I don't look for, but I don't mind either, as it attracts attention to it. Usually those opposing change are precisely those helping it, just because their panicking overreaction brings the attention of many to that which needs to be changed. Who ever cared about the word “pagan” before? Hardly anyone. But now the debate on the topic is raging — and will keep raging whatever is the outcome about “Jsp722” — which, I believe, is a good thing. And then I'll be free joyfully to pursue this or other topics, within or without Wikipedia.
Jsp722 (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no desire to "inflict psychological pain on other editors". That was just an observation based on your inability to leave the discussion to another place. But, to leave no doubt, I'm happy to fully support your suggestion for a permanent block on your account, which you say will be "even better" than "a full ban from editing any article on Wikipedia". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:25, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now it's too late. You have been caught redhanded confessing with all the letters that your actual purpose and motivation here is sadistically and debauchedly to inflict what you see as psychological pain on other editors — just changing your vote will not disguise this crude reality. Jsp722 (talk) 16:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean "with all the letters"? You've used that phrase three times now. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:27, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I only give explanations after the fourth time. Jsp722 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(Mrjulesd) says: As a possible compromise could you only replace "pagan" if you can find reliable sources describing said religion as something else?

There are plenty of sources detailing Norse, Lusitanian, Slavic, Arabic, Greek, Roman, [[78]], and any number of other so-called “pagan” religions. And, even if there were absolutely no such sources, it would be still thoroughly inadequate to bluntly call them “pagan” for all the already extensively discussed reasons.
For instance, there is relatively little information on Harappan, or on Hittite, or on pre-Buddhist and pre-Manichaeist Tocharian religions, but hardly anyone calls them “pagan”, simply because they were not an object of Christian genocidal discourse.

(Mrjulesd) says: As it stands it's making articles less comprehensible. For example changing "pagan" to "ancestral beliefs"[79] is less precise, which ancestors?

The actual question here is rather, which beliefs?, in reference to the beliefs held by Slavs before their Christianization. In this specific case, I replaced the phrase “documents describing the beliefs of pagan Slavs” with the phrase “documents describing the ancestral beliefs of Slavs”.
Now, it is clear that Slavs had their own traditional, ancestral beliefs, encompassing mythology, ritual, cosmology, folklore, calendars, festivals, taboos, paraphernalia, and so forth, all with well-established Indo-European roots, as you can see, for instance, on the article Slavic mythology.
Of course there would still be other alternatives, such as “Slavic traditional beliefs”, or “Slavic Indo-European beliefs”. I would reject “Slavic pre-Christian” beliefs, as there is no need to define such a wealth of inherited beliefs with a negation, or merely in relation to Christianity.

(Mrjulesd) says: Even replacing it with "non-Abrahamic religions" would be an improvement on ancestral beliefs, but again it is less precise as it is not a perfect interchange.

Since “non-Abrahamic” could be Indo-European, Semitic, Turkic, Mongolic, Sinitic, Maya, Aztec, Dravidian, and many other things, just “non-Abrahamic” is still far from qualifying for the requirements of the job — although it might occasionally be useful as a clarification or a complement.
“Ancestral” is still much better than “non-Abrahamic”, just because Slavs had only one “ancestral” religion, which is their, er..., ancestral, inherited, traditional, aboriginal, native, Indo-European-rooted religion.
Please note that the beliefs of the Slavs before their Christianization are as much “ancestral Indo-European beliefs” as the beliefs of Arabians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Chaldeans, and so forth, before their Christianization or Islamization, are “ancestral Semitic beliefs”.
In both sets of cases, they were ancestral and “non-Abrahamic” beliefs, but they had each their own specific, distinctive roots, either Indo-European or “Semitic” — “Semitic” itself being merely a biblical- and quranic-rooted, longstanding, unscientific buzzword (a great topic to explore, in case of a “pagan”-limited topic ban).
Bottom line, even though “non-Abrahamic” is indeed far better than the ridiculous “pagan” blanket derogation, it is still merely a poorly-informing negation, or generality.

(Mrjulesd) says: but again it is less precise as it is not a perfect interchange, read the article for why.

As with “non-Christian”, the phrase “non-Abrahamic”, while possibly useful, depending on context, is just a generality, a negation, and therefore a poor way of informing readers about the discussed topic, to wit, the actual, specific religion followed by Sviatoslav I of Kiev, the very subject of the article, much of whose historic importance is precisely related to such religion.
“Pagan”, while explicitly not a negation, is actually one, and a imprecise and inaccurate one to that effect, as already extensively discussed in the main thread, as it merely means “non-something”, and informs nothing about what the specific “pagan” religion is supposed to be. Was Sviatoslav I of Kiev following Arabian “pagan” beliefs? Or maybe Hindu “pagan” beliefs? Or who knows Norse, or Korean, or Bantu “pagan” beliefs?
“Pagan” informs nothing, and actually it hides from and denies the reader the information they are entitled to receive, which is the actual, specific, concrete religion followed by Sviatoslav I of Kiev. And by the way this is the very purpose of the creation and multimillenial usage of the word “pagan”: to deface, to dehumanize, to reduce to insignificance that which is supposed to be eliminated from life and from memory.
“Pagan” is a bit like the “Devil”: one is not supposed to know anything about them, except that they are to be hated. Beyond mere derogatoriness, its uncritical usage is nothing short from religious discourse and propaganda, something not supposed to have place in Wikipedia, as per WP:NOTSOAPBOX guidelines.
And this brings another important argument: the word “pagan”, even apart from its derogatoriness and manifold other defects, expresses a purely Christian point-of-view, or how Christianity sees non-Abrahamic culture. Now, Wikipedia is supposed to non-point-of-view, neutral, not viewing the world from any ethnic or religious point-of-view.
Reducing the non-Christian to merely “pagan” is akin to the Hebrew usage of “goy” referring to the non-Hebrew, or the ancient Greek “barbarian” referring to the non-Greek, or the Vedic “mlechccha” (barbarian) referring to foreigners in general, and so forth. These are all terms used from the specific point-of-view of those cultures, and none should be used by a neutral encyclopedia, which is what Wikipedia is supposed to be.

(Mrjulesd) says: read the article for why.

This is not enough. You have to say which part of the article you think says what and proves what; then I'll be pleased to give you an answer. This is the way a serious discussion develops.

(Mrjulesd) says: I simple don't believe you're improving articles by doing this,

Great. That's why we have talkpages and even dispute resolution pages. There you can express your disbelief, and support them with specific reasons and quotations, rather than the blanket argument “read the article for why”.
What is striking, however, is that you started your current post proposing “a possible compromise” if only one “can find reliable sources describing said religion as something else” apart from “pagan”, which as shown is precisely the case — just to finish the same post with the prejudiced, negative, statement that “I simply don't believe you're improving articles by doing this”.
Therefore, the intention of your post is not clear. Are you sincerely interested on discussing the topic, in order to reach a reasonable settlement, which is going to serve the reader rather than anyone's personal prejudice, or are you just parti pris interested on bolstering your already given vote for my banning, tardily adding your oh-so-weak, unbaked arguments?
To be honest, your intention actually became crystal-clear. You are not discussing in good faith. Your intention is not to find the best for the reader. Your intention is just to eliminate an editor you see as a rival and who holds opinions opposing your prejudices. You were just pretending that you were looking for a “possible compromise”, and making others waste time with it.

(Mrjulesd) says: or that pagan is pejorative as the term is proudly used by many neo-pagan organizations.

This wasted, pedestrian argument has already undergone full rebuttal on this thread, without any further comment from you or anyone else. Please make a favor to yourself and others, and read the whole thread from the start, and get acquainted with it, before untimely coming with digested food as it were a fresh plate.
To conclude, an interesting, illustrative quotation from the Swedish scholar Alexandra Sanmark in her paper “Power and Conversion — A Comparative Study of Chritianization in Scandinavia” might be in order:
“The terminology used to describe pre-Christian cultic ideas and practices will now be considered. Two terms that are commonly used are ‘paganism’ and ‘pre-Christian religion’. Neither of these will be used in this thesis. ‘Paganism’ has been avoided because its obvious negative connotations. [...]”
Jsp722 (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Good job we've all agreed this isn't the most appropriate place to discuss use of the word, isn't it? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
“We” who? Jsp722 (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How could I forget? You are the one already caught calling yourself “we”, as beforehand remarked, and below quoted — a well-known symptom of alternate personalities, or “alters”, within Dissociative Identity Disorder — remember?
We can see why you're so popular here. Martinevans123 (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome. Are you two, or how many? Jsp722 (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jsp722 (talk) 00:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah right, I "got caught". Yes, I should have put "Good job you've agreed... "Martinevans123 (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Right you are, because agreeable I am. But since others, including you, have not agreed, here we are still on this thread. Jsp722 (talk) 16:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You said "discussion should take place on the modified articles' talkpage, or on the interested editors' talkpages, but not on this Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents page". But you continue to discuss here, at great length, whenever the opportunity arises. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If so, you should complain to those making such opportunities arise, including you. It was not me starting this thread, and from the very beginning I say that it does not belong here — but for some strange reason almost everyone else, including you, has disagreed and insisted on the content discussion. Jsp722 (talk) 21:04, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've insisted on nothing of the sort. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
None of you? Jsp722 (talk) 00:44, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jsp722: Mrjulesd asked that you provide sources each time you replace the adjective "pagan" with more a descriptive, appropriate adjective. That is a non-negotiable policy and a part of the core principles of Wikipedia, and if you provide those sources, many editors will support you. This board is not for general discussion of religion and paganism, and is not a place for sarcasm or mock proposals. -Darouet (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darouet says to Jsp722: Mrjulesd asked that you provide sources each time you replace the adjective "pagan" with more a descriptive, appropriate adjective.

Thank you for the confirmation. I though it was just my imagination.
Anyway, just to keep the record straight, “pagan” is sometimes a noun.

Darouet says to Jsp722: That is a non-negotiable policy and a part of the core principles of Wikipedia,

Thank you for refreshing my memory. Are you a human or a robot?

Darouet says to Jsp722: and if you provide those sources, many editors will support you.

I though that many editors were supporting me because of my beautiful blue eyes, but thinking well it must be because I've hardly done anything here apart from providing sources, together with reasons.
As to previous edits, I would definitely have offered such sources on talkpages, if at least I had had the opportunity to. But, as you can check, I was directly and summarily reported to this ANI page for trial and execution by a disgruntled editor, without having had the opportunity even to offer one single source!

Darouet says to Jsp722: This board is not for general discussion of religion and paganism,

Do you really think it was my choice to discuss this content topic here? But judging from the interest triggered by the topic on this page, I think it was not a bad idea after all!

Darouet says to Jsp722: and is not a place for sarcasm or mock proposals.

Have you seen “sarcasm” or “mock proposals” anywhere? Please provide your sources, such as quotations or screenshots, and support them with credible reasons.
Jsp722 (talk) 03:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disclaimer: My eyes are not actually blue, as the post above might have suggested. But they are still beautiful, depending of course on the beholder. Jsp722 (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do you not comprehend that you've completely blown any assumption of good faith on your behalf, Jsp722? Your volatile nature and WP:WALLSOFTEXT have fairly much precluded you from any form of mentorship. Editing Wikipedia requires WP:COMPETENCE and an ability to work collaboratively without throwing toys out of your pram when you don't get your way. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yawn. Jsp722 (talk) 04:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's really offensive - Iryna originally opposed your being banned on the notion that you meant well. At this point, the advantages you might have brought to wikipedia are totally overshadowed by a level of condescension and arrogance that make collaboration with you impossible. -Darouet (talk) 07:04, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Feeling sleepy? Time you had a long rest, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The walls of text are easily explained: Jsp722 seems to be very diligent in taking apart the frivolous and crude arguments and accusations thrown around. Tragically, they nevertheless are repeatedly and mindlessly regurgitated. I don't know how I'd react to such a ridiculous trial. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:17, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support permanent block on account, as per editor's own proposal above. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:25, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is your third vote, the three of them in diametrically different directions, in 24 hours or so. You have voted for “full ban”, “partial ban”, and “no ban”. And me, naively thinking that “you” (the one who calls themselves “we”) were only two, but now I know that you are at least three! Jsp722 (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's my third choice of vote. Editors can change their mind as often as they wish. I only changed in the light of your responses here. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your vote became irrelevant, from the moment you confessed, as one can see above, that your intention here is debauchedly to inflict what you see as psychological pain on other editors. The confessed meanness of your intention makes of you a rogue member of this community. Jsp722 (talk) 16:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was a comment about your pattern of editing. But feel free to propose an indef block for me if you believe that is justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For whatever reason, I don't find joy in pursuing punishment for others. This I leave for folks like you and Softlavender. Jsp722 (talk) 17:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Any editor who is so lost as to petulantly and/or sarcastically propose their own perma-ban does not have the competence or maturity to participate collaboratively in this project. They asked for it let them live with it. JbhTalk 17:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - We have many administrators willing to consider self-requested blocks. --allthefoxes (Talk) 17:10, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disclaimer: The two votes above were spontaneous, thus presumably reflecting the voters' actual opinions, and were by no means canvassed or votestacked by me. Jsp722 (talk) 17:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Among the most common things which leads to sanctions for long term editors is not knowing when to just stop posting. You have made 263 edits to this thread. You may want to consider whether so many posts are doing you more harm than good. I am certain the non-threaded walls of replies are disruptive. JbhTalk 18:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It amazes me how someone could waste one's Saturday counting the posts of someone else. Anyway, the immense majority of my edits are just minor ones, about spelling, punctuation, grammar, linking, formatting, polishing the phrasing, and the such (even if sometimes I forget to tag them as “minor”).
Otherwise, all of my posts, including this one, are just answers to someone, like you.
By the way, a reply by definition is threaded, isn't it? — otherwise it simply wouldn't be a reply.
Jsp722 (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As to the “wall of replies”, actually they are saving space and time. If you care to check, after them usually there is no further answer from the questioning editor. The reason is that the question is fully dissected by the “wall of replies”, and nothing remains to be said. Still, it is hardly my fault that newcomers insist on already discussed topics. Jsp722 (talk) 21:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • 40% of Jsp722's edits have been to this now-2-week-old ANI thread. From this I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Jsp722 is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Therefore I'm going to support this proposal before he wastes much more of the community's time. Softlavender (talk) 19:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block, with WP:STANDARDOFFER. 40% (260+) of Jsp722's (720+) edits have been to this now-2-week-old ANI thread. From this I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Jsp722 is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Therefore I support this proposal and hope this is effected before he wastes much more of the community's time. Softlavender (talk) 19:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yawn. Jsp722 (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you have nothing of substance to say, it's best to say nothing at all. clpo13(talk) 20:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say anything. I've just yawned. Jsp722 (talk) 21:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's unnecessary and doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that you're taking any of this seriously. clpo13(talk) 21:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm so eager to inspire your confidence. Yawn. Jsp722 (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block - The editor has requested his own block above. Easy enough. Do it and let's move on. Jusdafax 20:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block at user's own request. Keri (talk) 21:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block because I use an experimental browser that has trouble showing overly long pages and this thread isn't helping. LjL (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as proposer. Jsp722 (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block... and pronto, please. It appears Jsp772 is convinced s/he is a martyr and can't wait to get onto as many blogs as possible to boast about it. Oh, and Jsp722, given your alacrity in citing policies and guidelines when you've had little real editing experience, if you think you're going to have success WP:SOCKing, think again. Everything about your style gives you away. You'd be able to conceal your smug, superior tone for more than a single confrontation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You really managed to read my thoughts! I was just wondering about my next nick so that no one suspects! What about Jsp723? Jsp722 (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I originally thought this person had something to offer, but obviously not. -Darouet (talk) 23:25, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for having deceived you. When I reincarnate as Jsp723 I'll try to be more clear about myself. Jsp722 (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update: This thread is now two weeks old and over 140,000 bytes long

At the moment this thread is 2 weeks old and over 140,000 bytes long, and counting. The vast majority of the thread is Jsp722's endless pointy sarcasm, ridicule, and mockery, walls of text, and time-wasting, as exemplified by the following response to this good-faith and obvious question: [80]. I'd personally like to see the situation dealt with fairly expeditiously, so that the thread does not grow another 100,000 bytes and waste the community's time another week or two before closure. Softlavender (talk) 20:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this thread had already reached its natural end a long time ago, with a mutually accepted proposal of mentorship, and even with a designated mentor, when you suddenly irrupted with your weird request for punishment. Afterwards, when the mentorship was already active and showing promising development, Richard Keatinge, in a very conciliatory way, asked if you agree with the closing of the thread, with these words:
Softlavender, would you think this a good point to close this thread, or are any further actions required? Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
However, you didn't even care to give an answer. Therefore, if anyone is responsible for the unnecesary overextension of this thread, the answer is hardly anyone except for you, seemingly more interested on punishment than on conciliaton.
Jsp722 (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So why propose an indef block for yourself, three days later: [81]? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't remember anymore. Probably I was bored. Jsp722 (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding: The fact that this thread has grown so endlessly repetitious and increasingly disruptive on Jsp722's part is an indication that WP:IDHT is a basic problem here and is not likely to improve, indeed has only gotten worse; I can only foresee increasingly more of the same. Softlavender (talk) 21:45, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Funny that you always find a WP:SOMETHING to support your obsession with punishing! Does it make you feel more confident? Jsp722 (talk) 22:04, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree that as the trolling accelerates, block, close, and WP:DENY become increasingly appropriate. Softlavender (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that “trolling” is a rather derogatory word. Please drop a line on my talkpage so that we find a suitable replacement. Jsp722 (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Trolling" seems perfectly accurate and at this point I genuinely wish this incident is closed swiftly by virtue of an indefinite-length block on Jsp722 without further waste of space. LjL (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a place to discuss the accuracy of words. Besides, indefinite length will waste too much space. Jsp722 (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification of Gamergate topic ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I wanted input on whether the Gamergate topic ban, specifically "(b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed" applies to the article about Chanty Binx (a controversial feminist.) If this is not the appropriate place to ask can someone move this to the appropriate place? Thanks. Great Go-Buster! (talk) 22:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Taking s look at the situation if you think that AFD is a violation WP:AE would likely be the bets place to go.--174.91.184.47 (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd stay far far away from that mess even without a topic ban. Legacypac (talk) 03:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To clearly Go Buster is not asking if they can edit the article they want an AFD crated by User:NorthBySouthBaranof closed because they think the AFD is a violation of their topic ban form GamerGate,--174.91.184.47 (talk) 04:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Aggressive Canvassing (WP:VOTESTACKING) to Ensure Deletion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sequence of events:

1 On 16 January 2016 Reywas92 nominated United States presidential election, 2024 for deletion.
2 By 20:42, 23 January 2016, it had received six KEEP !votes against only three DELETE !votes, and the quality of policy-based argument was also trending toward KEEP.
3 Beginning at 23:05, 23 January 2016, Reywas92 started posting notices on the Talk pages of editors alerting them to the AfD (see: [82], [83], [84]) who had previously voted DELETE in prior AfDs related to U.S. presidential election topics. By every appearance, no attempt was made to similarly notify KEEP editors of the same topics.

Recommended resolution: The integrity of the AfD has been compromised. It should be closed based on the status of discussion as it existed at 20:42, 23 January 2016. LavaBaron (talk) 23:58, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for the other editors who were invited to the Afd-in-question. But the message I got on my talkpage, was quite 'neutral' in its wording. IMHO, WP:CANVASS hasn't been breached. GoodDay (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As per WP:VOTESTACKING, canvassing includes any "attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion."LavaBaron (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're so worried about soliciting delete votes, yet you yourself have solicited countless DELETE votes by posting to ANI. Talk about WP:BOOMERANG. 207.38.156.219 (talk) 03:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Due to aforementioned editor's votestacking activities now attracting a larger number of his confederates, to preserve the integrity of the RfC I have notified 13 editors who participated in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States presidential election, 2020. This notification was provided to all editors in that AfD, regardless of the way they !voted, and is therefore permissible under WP:CANVASSING / WP:VOTESTACKING. I am noting this fact here to maximize transparency of process. I still strongly implore an admin to close this AfD as of the discussion prior to the soiling occurring (timestamp: 20:42, 23 January 2016). LavaBaron (talk) 00:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @LavaBaron: I hope you realize your AN thread is going to attract more deletionists to the AfD than Reywas' "canvassing" ever could. pbp 00:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update2: Note that the AfD ran for seven days and attracted 6 KEEP !votes and 3 DELETE !votes in that time. In just the 60 minutes since Reywas92 has initiated WP:VOTESTACKING activities, the flow of !votes is now 6 KEEP vs 10 DELETE. This is one of the most malignant, bald-faced and overt attempts to subvert the AfD process I've seen. Usually they're more subtle. LavaBaron (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You linked it from WP:AN and WP:ANI, which are very heavily-trafficked noticeboards. Of course there was an uptick in participation. clpo13(talk) 00:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The AfD was heavily VOTESTACKED just before the sunset of the AfD. The integrity of the AfD was compromised at the point that occurred. It should be closed based on the status of discussion as it existed at 20:42, 23 January 2016, which represented a full, 7-day run. We have a high barrier to deletion of material from WP. That barrier includes a fair and equitable process of discussion and consensus. The fairness and equity has been breached and it is incumbent on us we defer to not deleting where there is obvious and demonstrable WP:GAMING. LavaBaron (talk) 00:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, AfDs are open until they are closed. No 7 day statue of limitations. Legacypac (talk) 03:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@LavaBaron: If you really had consensus to keep the article, it wouldn't matter if the AfD discussion were open for 1 week or 2...the consensus would be the same either way. Generally speaking, the higher the number of registered users participating in a discussion, the more likely it is to reflect the consensus of the community. pbp 04:06, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PB89 - no offense but I think you're confused. I don't need consensus to "keep" the article. The nominator needs consensus to "delete" it. This is an important difference; Wikipedia imposes a high barrier on the destruction of knowledge. LavaBaron (talk) 07:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update3: It's now been 3 hours since Reywas92 began Vote Stacking to purge knowledge from WP, with incidences of secondary and tertiary stacking now also directing a steady flow of more !votes in. The flow of discussion has now flipped from 6 KEEP vs 3 DELETE to 6 KEEP vs 13 DELETE. The manipulation of the AfD renders it virtually unsalvagable at this point. I, again, implore the AfD be closed based on the status of discussion as it existed at 20:42, 23 January 2016, prior to Reywas92 beginning his Vote Stacking operation, or, I be allowed liberty to also begin directing stacking votes into this AfD. I have not done yet as our policy identifies WP:VOTESTACKING as a serious transgression, to wit: editors engaged in this "... may result in their being blocked from editing.", however, I have developed a targeted list of editors and can begin stacking them into this AfD ASAP if the community decides equity in this discussion could be best achieved by allowing me to do so. I would simply ask for a quick ruling so I can begin pouring canvassed !votes into the AfD quickly. LavaBaron (talk) 02:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of the last 10 delete votes, only 2 editors were brought there by user talk page notices, and one of them was a talk page notice you posted. If Reywas92 had been canvassing, it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the recent flow of delete votes. That being said, Reywas92 should know better than to only notify those who voted delete on a previous AfD. But, because of the limited posting (only three users), the time since the AfD they participated in (2009, which means they may have changed their mind, unlikely, but possible), and the lack of an effect (at least 10 of those !votes are valid), I feel sanctions would only be punitive since no major disruption was caused or seems to be impending. I recommend we warn both users and move on: Reywas92 for pretty clear votestacking, and LavaBaron for bludgeoning the process over at that AFD. Wugapodes (talk) 02:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the post here, assessed the AfD and voted on as I'm guessing a bunch of other editors did. Now LavaBaron wants to toss out a bunch of votes they themselves effectively solicited? That is disruptive. Legacypac (talk) 03:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I am seriously tempted to ask that LavaBaron be topic-banned from this ANI, the AFD and the article itself for a couple of weeks, as he is continuing to bludgeon a dead horse. pbp 04:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support warnings The canvassing was unacceptable, but quite limited. The exposure via this thread will dilute any impact to a point of irrelevancy. The bludgeoning is way out of line, and getting worse.
    I agree with Wugapodes: warn both users and move on. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the warning, I apologize. I made just three neutrally-worded notifications, which I understand is inappropriate. It seemed very few people who may have been interested in the discussion were even aware the article existed, perhaps assuming the previous consensus stood. All additional votes are likely from the LavaBaron's publicization of the discussion on this messageboard. Reywas92Talk 04:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the apology, Reywas92. FWIW, I apply a personal policy that if I notify any editor or group about a discussion in en.ep, I try to immediately disclose that notification in the discussion, preferably with diffs. That way everyone involved can see what's happening, and if I have screwed up, everyone knows promptly. Similarly, if I get a personal notification about a discussion, I try to remember to disclose that when I post.
As I say, it's only a personal policy, but it does save a lot of misundersandings. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Apology accepted and move to close both AfD and ANI

Thanks, Reywas92, apology accepted and appreciate the explanation as to the amount of vote stacking you engaged in. It would be an equitable remedy if we could strike any !votes from those three editors (though only two appear to have actually !voted in response to the canvassing). By my count we have 7 !votes and solid policy arguments for Keep and 12 !votes for Delete (after excluding the two vote that were solicited via Vote Stacking). In my mind, this doesn't really represent a consensus to destroy knowledge but I'm happy to agree to disagree with those who believe it is. Either way, since the AfD has become heated, I suggest a decision be made one way or the other and it be closed. BrownHairedGirl, can you do that? Thanks! LavaBaron (talk) 06:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the idea of an Afd closer publicly 'striking out' any votes. Best that the closer keep that to him/herself. GoodDay (talk) 07:07, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Great point. I think if the AfD closer just ignored the !votes that resulted from the policy violation that would be fine; the actual act of striking would be rather vindictive and silly. LavaBaron (talk) 07:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, if the closer decides to ignore or accept the 3 votes-in-question? then let him/her do so in the privacy of his/her thoughts :) GoodDay (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, the privacy of the closer's thoughts should be respected and I fully intend to report any instances of mind control in this AfD directly to ANI. LavaBaron (talk) 07:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Close

Recommend closing this ANI report, as it appears to have run its course. The AfD-in-question, will most likely continue on & then be closed as 'keep' or delete', like many others before. GoodDay (talk) 07:52, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No give the editor a little more rope [85] Legacypac (talk) 08:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. ANI accomplished what was intended. As proposer, second GoodDay's motion to close. LavaBaron (talk) 08:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz making multiple personal attacks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz, User:NewsAndEventsGuy, myself and others have been working on Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and related pages. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz took exception to certain edits and discussions by NewsAndEventsGuy and myself, and we have now seen three days of uncivil comments, mainly directed at NewsAndEventsGuy, but also at me. Main examples:

I note Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz has made many useful edits. I don't know why Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz got so angry. I initially ignored the issue, hoping the anger would fade. It hasn't. Bondegezou (talk) 17:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I got so angry because you and your buddy decided to create a hit page and harass me for the stated intent of driving me away from contributing, just like you're still doing, Bondegezou. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 17:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz: your comments are right out of line. Name calling and hostile behaviour will quickly result in your account being blocked. If you cannot disagree without name calling then your stay here will be short. Any further personal attacks and I will block you personally.
If you have concerns about the behaviour of Bondegezou or any other editor you can present evidence in a calm fashion. HighInBC 17:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They uncivilly threatened me repeatedly, and "NewsAndEventsGuy" started setting up a targeting page. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What's this "hit page" you're referring to? clpo13(talk) 18:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He created a page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:NewsAndEventsGuy/1 and threatened me with it. Looks like he had it deleted now so I can't show what he was up to. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Clpo13:, The page in question was my civility-based draft AE complaint against Prostetnic. At one point I thought he was walking away - both from the article, it's talk page, and me - so I moved it off wiki. I did keep it since these things have a way of coming back... and (obviously) I am glad I did. Since it has roared back to life with gusto I have restored the page. You can see the version at the point in time of its deletion at the first diff in its version history. There's no guarantee, of course, that thousands of other eds didn't help me manipulate it while it was off site, so everyone will just have to take me on trust, no matter how hard that is for them. I will probably develope my properly formatted and documented complete comment for this filing under that file name in my user space. Everyone is invited to watch, but not to help except at the attendant drafts talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh that [86] is real cute. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz made this edit to Talk:Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, which I reverted and warned him for. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now there is this. PVJ at this point you may want to read WP:BATTLEGROUND because you are displaying many of the attributes mentioned there. MarnetteDTalk 18:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile in reality, things like this. [87]Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:17, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've reported the IP to AIV for harassment. This, however, does not excuse your battleground conduct and your repeated incivility towards others despite multiple warnings and reasonable attempts to allow you to correct the behavior. I think that a block is completely justified at this point, to be honest. I hate to say it, but if it were up to me, I would be doing so. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:23, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz's beef with NewsAndEventsGuy. I haven't myself seen anything unreasonable in NewsAndEventsGuy's behaviour. Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge has been a fast-changing article with lots of edits and discussions. Most of the prior conflict with Prostetnic is at Talk:Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge#Too_long.3F seq. Also see User_talk:Bondegezou#Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge, User_talk:NewsAndEventsGuy#Conversations_with_P, User_talk:Parsley_Man#Thanks_for_your_hard_work and Prostetnic's own Talk page. Bondegezou (talk) 18:25, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For the record: I had no prior relationship with NewsAndEventsGuy prior to recently getting involved in work on Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. We have both agreed and disagreed over edits on that article. NewsAndEventsGuy has posted once to my Talk page. That's about the sum total of our relationship now. I have never threatened Prostetnic. I think the harshest thing I've said to PVJ is, "Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz, would you please read WP:AGF and WP:FOC." PVJ has made many very useful contributions and I hope will continue to do so. I do not want PVJ to leave: I do want PVJ to adopt a different approach to disagreement! I note this recent edit in addition to the above: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOccupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge&type=revision&diff=701288664&oldid=701283774Bondegezou (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


I would like to THANK the editor who left me a note in support on my talk page, copied here. "It's unfortunate that so many with power on Wikipedia are so unaware of recognizing when an editor is being bullied, antagonized, gas-lighted, and pushed to the wall. --MurderByDeletionism"bang!" 18:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)" Thank you, MurderByDeletionism, that sums up the conduct of Bondegezoi and NewsAndEventsGuy nicely. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment by NewsAndEventsGuy
A. Prostetnic first got mad at me when I posted an EW template to his user talk
  • 15:05 Jan 15 PVJ deletes EW warning template with edit sum Remove uncivil insults mischaracterizing my edits by "NewsAndEventsGuy"
B. Jan 15 Prostetnic next got mad at me when I posted the FYI no-fault DS alert template to his user talk
  • 15:27 Jan 15 DS Alert by me left at PVJ page
  • 15:29 Jan 15 NAEG to PVJ, personal note
  • 15:31 Jan 15 PVJ deletes DS template and personal note with edit sum And now he's on to more threats
C. Prostetnic later got mad at me when I posted a suggestion he self revert a personal attack he put on article talk
  • 13:25 Jan 20 At article talk PVJ attacks Bondegezou (talk · contribs) saying Congratulations on making a bunch of extra work for everyone. I'm going to keep updating information as I can get it and putting up the sources, you figure out what to do with it then. Obviously you think you WP:OWN the article anyways and don't want to actually work with anyone else, Bondegezou
  • 13:33 Jan 20 I ask PVJ to self revert the personal attack
  • 13:39 Jan 20 PVJ refuses saying I meant what I said and I said what I meant. I'm tired of Bondegezou playing games and not caring to work with anyone else
  • If asked I can provide subsequent diffs of the fall out
D. Eventually I started drafting a civility-based AE complaint in my userspace, which for awhile I moved offwiki when I thought this was resolved with him/her taking a voluntary page ban
E. Apparently, P didn't really mean it when P said P was taking a voluntary page ban, and P has it in for me
F. I will fill in diffs and details by Monday 18:00.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC) This has been updated with DIFFS NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There he goes again. I haven't edited the page since, and I have stuck to that despite the page falling into disrepair because it appears that nobody else bothers to keep either page (the main, or the "timeline" that was set up with no discussion) up as things change. That's my point: it appears NewsAndEventsGuy has WP:OWN issues regarding the page, preferring it fall into disrepair rather than see me try to keep it current, and is willing - as he has just admitted - to keep up a pile of attack material ready against me, so that he can follow through on the threats he made.
I had no problem with people working on moving things to the Timeline, and reducing to summaries, or helping fill in sources (god knows I suck at figuring out those citation templates, every time I try I screw it up). I do have a problem being threatened, abused, gaslighted, and otherwise treated badly. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 19:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Second the call for checkuser While I do think a temporary topic ban for Prostetnic is in order, I disavow the IP's nastiness in the DIFF posted by Clpo13. If that can be attributed to a regular account, that ed also merits a sanction. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:10, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I've hard-blocked that IP for 48 hours. SQLQuery me! 21:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It might be useful to have a checkuser look into this one - the IP is continuing to hop around on Sprint's network, harassing PVJ. SQLQuery me! 05:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just want to add that anyone who has things like Tricks for consensus in a heated environment on their talk page is playing mind games with editors here. --MurderByDeletionism"bang!" 20:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Murder, of course, is referencing the grey box at the top of my user page. I'd love to hear what anyone thinks about it at my user talk. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:24, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like good advice to me. HighInBC 21:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • So . . . you are condoning tricking editors to get consensus? Now that's one stamp of approval I didn't expect to see. Woo, hoo!!! --MurderByDeletionism"bang!" 00:49, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did you read the text or just the title? What you are saying makes no sense based on what the text says. HighInBC 01:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, High, but that's getting off topic. I'd be glad to host that discussion at my usertalk. See also Murder's pretty similar remarks at Vpump NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Prostetnic did indeed withdraw from editing the Malheur event pages. They say above that they haven't "edited the page since", but they have edited the Talk page to leave an uncivil message: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOccupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge&type=revision&diff=701282001&oldid=701231450 This was deleted by User:Oshwah, and Prostetnic re-added it in a slightly edited form: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOccupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge&type=revision&diff=701288664&oldid=701283774 Such language is in clear violation of WP:AGF.
Prostetnic also claims that, since then, we have seen "the page falling into disrepair". This is clearly not the case, as a look at Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge will show.
Prostetnic claims to have been "threatened, abused, gaslighted, and otherwise treated badly". No evidence has ever been presented to back-up such language. Bondegezou (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "threatened, abused, gaslighted, and otherwise treated badly" was an observation that I made. It's obvious Prostetnic is being mob bullied here. No one should be surprised that they fought back. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is set up to defend only those editors who've been here the longest and this is just another incident of tag-teaming to eliminate a new editor. Well done! --MurderByDeletionism"bang!" 00:49, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you MurderByDeletionism. That's precisely how it has felt to me the past few days. A pair of people tag teaming and using threats, intending to create a "consensus" by running off anyone who asked to hold up and have a discussion of unilateral actions that had a major impact on the page first. The harassment that's been thrown [88] [89] [90] at my talk page today just shows me that someone is trying to get me to react to them yet again, likely for NAEG's stated intention here of having me banned from so much as discussing about the article. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 01:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by LavaBaron I created this article and was heavily involved in editing it for the first week. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz and other editors became inundated with a high level of ownership and excessively WP:BOLD editing being exhibited by Bondegezou and NewsAndEventsGuy, the latter of whom engaged in disruptive WP:POINTY self-reporting at ANI [91] in which Wugapodes (among others) repeatedly cautioned him that he was shooting himself in the foot.
I don't feel this ANI notice has been posted in GF. Many of the diffs provided in the original ANI don't contain anything remotely classifiable as personal attacks, nor even mention the complainant editors by name. I really think, given that, this should WP:BOOMERANG to a TBAN against NewsAndEventsGuy, especially considering the previous warnings he's received (linked above). Editors should not be subjected to claims of making personal attacks without diffs that demonstrate said alleged attacks. The diffs appear to just have been randomly pulled from the air to create the appearance of legitimacy and are simply content discussions. LavaBaron (talk) 00:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NAEG reply to LavaBaron request for Tban on me ... and BOOMERANG request to prevent ongoing harassment from LavaBaron
A. Lava casts DIFF-free aspsersions of owernship
B. Lava invents the novel but unarticulated WP:Excessively bold editing Tban policy
C. Lava fails to assume good faith re: my-self reporting to ANI, which --- to anyone who assumes good faith --- was intended to educate me as to the basis of an admin's actions. An admin reverted me saying "Spam" in the edit summary.
Below is a summary of my self reported case (now archived). At the article, LavaBaron reverted me and I started a talk thread. I also posted several pointers to the thread at the talk pages for articles that should be interested. An admin reverted them with edit summary "spam". Here's what happened next
C1. Since I could not see how WP:SPAM applied, especially in light of WP:APPNOTE I asked.
C2. The admin declined to explain.
C3. So I self reported for purpose of getting education about how these two rules interact.
C4. My self-report at ANI may not have been the best approach but my intention was the opposite of POINTY. On the contrary, my method was consistent with WP:ADMINACCT which says in relevant part, unexplained administrator actions can demoralize other editors who lack such tools. Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions. Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.
C5. And it worked!!!!! The admin in question did reply and explained she did not mean "spam" when she typed SPAM in the edit sum, rather she meant the section from WP:CANVASS on "spam and excessive cross posting". Whether what I did was "indiscriminate" has never been hashed out, because I then accepted the admin's reverts and moved on.
C6. Note that Lava's diff supports his NAEG thumping, instead of the archived thread which shows the actual response and education that accomplished the self report's good faith purpose. The full archived thread is here (there was some additional back and forth between us elsewhere also).
D. CONCLUSION - No OWENRSHIP diffs, an invented policy, and a stubborn failure to assume I simply wanted, in good faith, to flippin' understand the admin's actions... these all tell the same tale - Lava doesn't like me. I can live with that. That's hardly a reason to impose a Tban. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I like you just fine. This isn't about me "not liking you." You've been repeatedly told my many editors to stop shooting yourself in the foot with this repeated reporting - reporting that is almost paranoid in its obsessiveness - of various editors who have content disagreements with you, usually not really even regarding content (you and I are both pretty much on the same page on the Malheur article) but about your extremely unconventional style of editing. Anyway, I'm a 10,000 word underdog to you, as always. From viewing your sandboxes, I know you invest a lot of energy into typing up these complaints and rebuttals and Wikidrama just isn't something that interests me, so I'm leaving it there. LavaBaron (talk) 02:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Lava, who said "You've been repeatedly told my many editors to stop shooting yourself in the foot with this repeated reporting - reporting that is almost paranoid in its obsessiveness - of various editors....."
A. Diffs please. Since you gave no diffs this looks like WP:Casting aspersions. Was that a harassing attempt to bait me?
B Hey! Wait a minute! There's evidence that suggests the answer! In the face of logic, you won't bother to defend your initial Tban request, which you made before and withdrew before. So what's that tell us about the armies of editors who have warned the paranoid NewsAndEventsGuy to stop these obsessive reports? What it tells us is you deserve a sanction yourself.
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is it possible to bring this to some resolution?
  • User:Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz repeatedly made uncivil comments (pace User:LavaBaron), as detailed at the top of this section and including, "Fuck you, NewsAndEventsGuy, clearly all you want to do is damage this article. Well go the fuck right ahead and do it" [92], "two uncivil jackholes who think they WP:OWN the article want to play games and run people off" [93] and "uncivil threatening jerks" [94]. Prostetnic has made no apology and continues to repeat ridiculous claims here (e.g. that they are being "gaslighted"). Administrators: I would like to see some resolution of this issue, whatever you decide is for the best. I do not like having to approach Wikipedia with trepidation that more such personal attacks may have been made. LavaBaron: I am taken aback by your comment that "I don't feel this ANI notice has been posted in GF." I don't think "Fuck you" or "jackholes" or "jerks" are, as you put it, "simply content discussions".
  • There have also now been unacceptable personal attacks on User talk:Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz by IP editing. Administrators: I fully support an investigation into this development and blocks for anyone involved.
  • User:LavaBaron and User:Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz: if you wish to make a case against User:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are entitled to do so through appropriate channels. However, I would recommend you do so with clear diffs. A past trout-slapping hardly seems like a strong basis for much! Whatever your beef with NAEG is, however, it cannot warrant the personal attacks from PVJ against me. I would like to separate your past concerns around NAEG from my the complaint I have brought now against PVJ.
  • User:LavaBaron: you accuse me of "overly bold" editing. Feel free to raise any concerns you have on my Talk page or on the article Talk page. I have made a number of bold edits: initially, there was about trimming details (e.g. the time of a press conference) from an overly long section in the main Malheur article. Some stuck, some were reverted, at which point I respected BRD and went to the Talk page [95]. There, several editors supported my edits [96] + [97], including NewsAndEventsGuy [98]. LavaBaron [99] and Prostetnic opposed these edits. I sought to discuss these with Prostetnic [100]. I also sought to discuss these with LavaBaron [101], but received no reply from LavaBaron. Later, this whole section was spun off to a Timeline article (by User:CaseyPenk, contrary to Prostetnic's implication it was me or NewsAndEventsGuy). I then made some bold edits moving material to the Timeline article and substantially abbreviating what remained in the main article to avoid duplication: e.g. [102]. I do not recall LavaBaron objecting to these edits. Thus, I do not feel I have been overly bold, but, as I said, happy to discuss further. Bondegezou (talk) 12:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since I was mentioned here I will toss in some context: I spun off the timeline article because the main article was ridiculously lengthy and way over-specific for a summary article, but it had valuable information and the efforts of the contributors deserved to be perpetuated. I stand by anyone who makes an effort to prune information (condensing or deleting it) from the main article and keep the specific details to the spinoff article. I haven't read the context of this discussion and I prefer not to get involved in administrative matters. But broadly speaking, I would hope no one would be personally attacked for trying to clean up an article and make it more concise for the reader, and I appreciate the efforts of people who do so. I support boldness in service of the reader. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just need to point out that Bondezegou and/or NewsAndEventsGuy - whichever of them is doing it - are continuing to leave harassing messages on my talk page like this one: [103]. I do not think anyone should be put through what these two are putting me through. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

At present there is as much reason to think you're doing it yourself as there is to think its either of us. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That IP address has been temporarily blocked for personal attacks. LizRead! Talk! 19:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And this[104] is the type of behavior I'm referring to. Attempting to blame the victim for the abuse is a classic tactic; this confirms for me the evaluations of MurderByDeletionism and Lavabaron that the goal is to have me "bullied, antagonized, gas-lighted, and pushed to the wall", "mob-bullied", and "tag-teamed." Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 19:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not blaming the victim. They pointed out that it could be you just as easily as it could be them. Do YOU have any evidence proving that they are leaving these messages? Take a step back, breathe and try and realize that not everyone is trying to bully you here. The "bully card" is being overplayed on this thread and on Wikipedia in general. Anytime anyone seems to disagree with someone else there are accusations of bullying. Same goes for quoting policy. Wikipedia needs strong policies to survive, just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean you are being bullied. Mrfrobinson (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you are right. I followed you to AN/I a noticeboard that has been on my watchlist for almost 10 years. Mrfrobinson (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry this is out of order but I don't even know where to put it. I've been gone for 12 hours and there's another several WP:WALLOFTEXT from NewsAndEventsGuy. The only reason I'm posting at this point is that he is now attacking me that I'm "casting aspersions" and is demanding diffs of where he was warned by another editor. Fine. Right here just days ago: [105], Wugapoles said NewsAndEventsGuy is "not new and I think just needs a clue adjustment. I feel like an admonishment that his actions have been disruptive is enough" NEGuy - as you've been told by me and others, no one is out to get you. I'm not. No one is. Please cut it out. I don't believe you're gaslighting Prostetnic as MurderByDeletionism has alleged, I think you just don't know better and, in Wugapoles words, "need a clue adjustment." I know, from watching, you spend hours, and sometimes days, putting together these polemics against editors you believe are out to get you in your Sandboxes and then parachute them into Talk pages and ANI. I'm not going to do a bullet-point response because I, frankly, don't have time and also don't really care. This thread, like your previous ones, will be closed with no action and then, next week, you'll again be firing off walls of text peppered with exclamation points. Please just stop, have a glass of cold water, take a short walk, and then come back to WP with a new outlook. LavaBaron (talk) 20:57, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Behavioral evidence about likelihood that the trolling is by NewsAndEventsGuy:
  • This diff [106] is NAEG's latest complaint about my edit. He complains that I have edited " closely related pages " and singles out Oath Keepers and Sovereign Citizen Movement.
  • This diff [107] is the troll's latest threat on my talk page. Note that it too tells me to stop editing "related articles" with the phrasing "THAT MEANS RELATED ARTICLES TOO. YOU DON'T GET TO EDIT POSSE COMITATUS OR SOVEREIGN CITIZEN ARTICLES. FIND A NEW FOCUS OR GET BANNED. (all caps left by the troll on my talkpage).
Based on this, I feel it is a strong likelihood that NAEG is the who has been doing this, for purposes of gaslighting/harassing me. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is not even remotely evidence. HighInBC 23:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This appears to be a kind of messy content dispute, I think all involved editors should take a deep breath and chill. This is a current ongoing, and obviously controversial topic to some degree. I know NAEG from climate related edits, but his contributions are good faith edits. I don't know the other editor, but ad hominems are really not the way to communicate efficiently. prokaryotes (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discretionary sanctions

If this bickering keeps up it is fairly likely some administrator will take advantage of the discretionary sanctions covering the article and remove those who are adding more heat than light to the situation. I suggest everyone involved takes a day or so off from the topic and when they return the strictly stick to commenting on the topic and not other editors. I am about to go through those involved and make sure they have gotten the DS alert to be sure they are fully aware. HighInBC 00:04, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a American politics DS notice on the talk pages of NewsAndEventsGuy and Bondegezou. LavaBaron and Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz have already gotten them in the past. Please remember that these notices are not an accusation, however you are all considered aware of the sanctions in place on the article. More so than other Wikipedia articles editors are expected to work together in a polite fashion. If you are unable to do this then you should avoid the area. HighInBC 00:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated reverts by Aubmn socks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blueundigo5 (talk·contribs·block user)
BannedAubmn (talk·contribs·block user) has made multiple reverts of edits by Blue Indigo and now myself, most recently as Blueundigo5, and in the last couple of days as BlueUndigo4 (talk·contribs), BLueUndigo2 (talk·contribs), Blueundigo3 (talk·contribs), Blueindigo23 (talk·contribs), Newqueen2 (talk·contribs), Samfrodo (talk·contribs) and others. The others have been blocked by Bbb23 and Acroterion. Could anyone block Blueundigo5 and take whatever measures seem appropriate? NebY (talk) 19:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Blueundigo5 now reverted by many and blocked by the tireless BBbb23 - thanks. NebY (talk) 19:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MoiraMoira's abuse

En.wiki is not Nl.wiki. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Doesn't belong here
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I am really sick of this situation. Being stalked by an admin is already bothersome, but having one's IP range blocked for nothing is way too much. On nl.wikipedia the range 151.20.0.0/18 (belonging to a big slice of Italians) has been blocked for 1 months because of (Google Translate) "Disturbance / threatening atmosphere". The "Disturbance / threatening atmosphere" is the following message in a talk page: "We agreed to move also the German article at the end :-)"; such message was a reply to another user's message: "For your information: the German WP has the wrong spelling as well and the same discussion. Regards". The fact is that it was being discussed about an Italian spelling on de.wikipedia, and at the beginning user Tusculum did not agree with my purpose to rename a page, so he wrote that message in the related Dutch talk page. Eventually he and the other German users concurred with me and move the page, so I added "For your information" my message, to explain in that talk page that he agreed with me too. And I was blocked. For a month. For doing nothing bad. And with me a lot of Italians. In the last week on nl.wikipedia I have just written to another Dutch user and made no edits. Do you think is the admin's behaviour correct and respectful of Wikipedian rules and conditions? Besides I have seen that (s)he and another pair of Dutch admins/users are literally stalking me, even if I am not doing anything wrong, in each single Wiki-project I dare to surf, in one of ErikvanB's pages, whom I had already reported here. I have read some affairs on the Internet about this MoiraMoira and I am wondering whether I have to start being scared or not. It is not just the fact that admin has decided to make chasing me his/her mission: I do not know how tracking a user's activities is possible, either a lot of time is spended to search the Wikis for every 151.20 IP's contribution, and this would be a bit scary by itself, or they know more about "me" than the simple IP address, than what they are authorised to know, violating a user's privacy without being policemen or lawyers. I just would like this to end. The article for all this started has already been renamed in every language except Dutch, and I do not care if they prefer being the black sheep, but they still are not stopping the useless stalking, if I were a vandal I would have been blocked or warned on other Wikis or they would even do it themselves (actually it is one of them who has undergone that). And now MoiraMoira has abused admin's powers too, by blocking me for literally nothing that is worth a block, as you could read above. Please take some actions to stop such a behaviour. I would have written this on nl.wikipedia, but I was prevented from editing anything and even if I did they would delete it since they are the ones ruling the Dutch Wiki, so... 151.20.87.220 (talk) 20:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to see here. This is about a dispute at nl-wp, and as far as I can see MoiraMoira has been taking no action at all here on en. As far as I could figure out, the IP is on a cross-wiki campaign about the spelling of some Italian village, with "é" or with "è" (see Portobuffolé). Blocks on nl don't concern us here. Fut.Perf. 20:22, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So... I can do nothing and will just stay blocked as many others Italians for doing nothing wrong, is this what you mean? 151.20.107.241 (talk) 20:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's certainly nothing you can do here. If you want to do something about it on nl-wikipedia, the best advice I can give you is to try to talk to them in a way that just sounds a bit less shrill and a bit less, pardon my French, obsessed. And stop behaving in ways that come across as hounding, like the way you kept posting unwanted messages to Moira on her nl talkpage, or the way you accused her here. I realize you are trying to get something done that you think is right, and as far as I can see you have successfully convinced a number of editors here on en-wikipedia that it is in fact the better version, but it really would help if you could acknowledge that it's (1) not a black-and-white matter – seeing as both forms clearly coexist, and (2) not an important matter at all – seeing as this is all about nothing more than the angle of some little black dot over the name of some obscure village. Fut.Perf. 21:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But how could I talk if blocked? I wrote that at the end of my comment. Maybe it is not possible for an English admin to intervene there, even if "this" is the main, international Wiki and I think that some hig-ranked admin may do something about such an abuse, but if it is not so at least could an admin just try speaking in that Dutch admin's talk page to ask her to remove this unmotivated range block and to stop stalking, since I have no longer been doing anything wrong to those Dutch admins and in nl.wikipedia? 151.20.120.68 (talk) 21:30, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, you should simply leave the Dutch wiki alone. Since you don't speak Dutch, there's not overly much you can do there anyway, and if they want to keep those "è" instead of "é", why not just let them? Fut.Perf. 21:36, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is what I wrote in my message above, I do not care they are the only ones with a wrong spelling, so much the worse for them, I do not want to do anything more there, but the fact remains that block is motiveless and an abuse. If nothing is possible, well, at least English Wikipedians have learnt something new about that Dutch admin. 151.20.122.199 (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Refusing proper categorization

I properly categorized the Lavdrim Muhaxheri-article, created by the user, see diff here. I was reverted, insisted, was reverted, then initiated a discussion. From the discussion, it is clear that the user does not know how to properly categorize people. He is new, and this is his only article. After several replies clarifying the matter, he is still not getting it. Last revert here. I have assumed good faith, but I'm losing patience. Am I wrong here?--Zoupan 15:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I've replied on the talk page; As for now I'm reverting this to the original version which has been co - edited by not only me. The categories should be consistent with the article. I think that you're confusing subcategories with main categories when it's the main categories that are referenced to in the article. For instance, the article mentions "wahhabism" as a theory and not exclusively people who are wahhabists.Readers of the article might want to know both about the theory or people who adhere to it. The same goes with the rest. I'm currently looking at if your tag 'Kosovo Muslims' is consistent and relevant for the article. KewinRozzKewinRozz (talk) 15:43, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, this is a content dispute; in the future, things like this should go to a forum like WP:THIRDOPINION first, not here. But since we're already here, I'll give you my opinion. Looking at this diff, for the most part the tags on Zoupon's version make more sense the the other cats. This article is about a person, and thus person-oriented tags are more appropriate (e.g., "Wahhabists" vs. "Wahhabism." A tag like "Wahhabism" would be entirely appropriate if this person was an influential figure in Wahhabism as a school of thought, but not so much if they are simply an adherent. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,Ohnoitsjamie, it concerns the following part; 'In August 2014 Kosovo mobilized to fight religious radicalism, also referred to as "wahhabism" and "radical Islamism", and terrorism by arresting around forty citizens who were suspected of engaging in the conflicts in Syria and Iraq.'KewinRozzKewinRozz (talk) 15:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(1) I thought this conversation was about categories; I'm not sure what point you're making with this quote. (2) Please take this discussion back to the article's talk page where it belongs. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:02, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is (was?). I seriously believe that further discussion between the two of us will lead nowhere. It is now obvious that the user has ownership issues. See this revert of copyediting.--Zoupan 16:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The reverted versions was also an over - write but I've changed to the 'wahabists'. I have no ownership - issues whatsoever, as one can see I welcome co - editors.KewinRozzKewinRozz (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But you just reverted Ohnoitsjamie... Need I say more?--Zoupan 16:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that this sort of dispute is exactly what the WP:THIRDOPINION dispute resolution process is designed for. Mike1901 (talk) 16:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That may have been the case. But now we're here, and the third opinion was reverted.--Zoupan 16:27, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do yourselves a favor and stay away from category arguments. Nobody cares about categories. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 16:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously some people do or we wouldn't be here, would we. 74.205.176.200 (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see some evidence that anyone besides Wikipedia editors care. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 19:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, touché. 74.205.176.200 (talk) 12:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
These categories were added by me and other co - editors and I've suggested that the discussion would be on the talk page so that other co - editors could partake. One can compare with the previous versions prior to today User:KewinRozzKewinRozz (talk) 16:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion between the two of us went nowhere. Since the user has been warned, I would also like to ask if this revert of copy-editing is appropriate?--Zoupan 16:45, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

...Lavdrim Muhaxheri was 9 years old during the Kosovo War. Should he be included in the "People of the Kosovo War" category? KewinRozz insists.--Zoupan 18:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is now getting seriously annoying. Please take a look at the user's replies at the article talk page.--Zoupan 14:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing & dishonest behavior by experienced editor Alexikoua

I believe there's a glaring discrepancy between what you'd expect from someone who's been an editor for more than 7 years, and how Alexikoua (talk · contribs) behaves, especially concerning intellectual honesty. I made an edit (explained here and here) since this was the only way for me to get Alexikoua to engage in discussing this specific issue. I subsequently pinged Alexikoua to make sure he understood why I made these edits. Not a single time did he discuss the issue on the appropriate section on the talk page during this period (my post still stands as the most recent one here), but this has not stopped him from reverting, again, again, again, and again. His reasons for reverting in chronological order are:

  1. He claims removing "in Albania" is disruptive
  2. Accuses me of violating "DRN procedure" and threatens to report me
  3. He implies the issue has been settled because it's been "refuted in all noticeboards (DRN etc)"
  4. He states that "all noticeboards disagreed with this removal" (my removals of "in Albania")
  5. He states that it has been "ignored in DRN & all noticeboards"

I will get back to points 1-4 (point 5 speaks for itself), but first some background (who's Kone?)

Why is Alexikoua insisting on adding "in Albania"? Because by adding "in Albania", it leads the reader to believe that Kone did not mean "Albanian origin", and Alexikoua has already decided that the latter is not possible (WP:IDONTLIKEIT). This is not a coincidence, but a tactic he's used several times to push a certain narrative. Two other examples come to mind:

With regards to point 1 raised earlier, I'll let the admins decide. As for point 2, at that point, the DRN was closed, so it's beyond me how he can accuse me of violating DRN procedure. And finally, points 3 & 4 are downright dishonest. To refute means "to prove to be false or erroneous, as an opinion or charge." The DRN, which was closed due to no one volunteering, can be found here. Notice that in his summary of dispute Alexikoua never addressed the specific point which he argues was refuted. As for being refuted on other noticeboards, that's simply not true either. I welcome Alexikoua to present diffs where these points have been refuted on noticeboards. Unless he can provide these diffs, his reasons for reverting on said basis should be regarded as fabrications (never mind that he doesn't discuss it on the talk page).

Alexikoua resorts to ad hominem and accuses me of "usual trolling", and again threatens to report me, but this time for "continuous disruption". Notice how he on both occasions doesn't follow through with the report, and on both occasions I am "1 step from being reported". One can only conclude that these are merely attempts to silence the new editor (me).

Shortly after the DRN was closed, I opened a RfC. Alexikoua stops by and accuses me of manipulating available material. Apart from the fact that it's disruptive to "crash" someone's RfC like that, the accusations he make's have no merit whatsoever. This is evident from the fact that the concerns I raised on the RfC concerning unsupported claims about Kone's ethnic background have now been remedied through consensus.

I even warned Alexikoua, but he didn't hesitate to remove it. [108]

I believe an administrator could look at all of this, and say "tl:dr, new user vs old user, this is a content dispute, will not get involved". I'd argue that this is the easy way out. At least ask Alexikoua to provide some form of evidence for points 3-4. Ask him about point 5 (is this even a legitimate reason for reverting?). Ask him why he ignores to discuss the issue on the talk page. Ask him why he's accused me of trolling. My closing statement will be a straightforward question to the administrators: provided what I present here is true, would you say that the actions of Alexikoua are in line with the policies of Wikipedia with regards to intellectual honesty? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 23:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A short note on one point: removing a warning is entirely acceptable; the only thing not allowed to be removed is a declined unblock request during the duration of the block in question. Removing a warning is considered the same thing as saying "I've read it". Don't have knowledge to dig into the rest here. - The BushrangerOne ping only 02:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying that it's not acceptable. However, if you look at his reason for removing it, it reads "tag misuse". My intention was just to show that there is a pattern on behavior that's not allowing us to move forward with the issue. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that this is a rather desperate report by DevilsWB simply because he fails to wp:OWN the specific article & more precisely to remove a tiny part [[109]]. Although he was kindly adviced by third part users in the DRN that his proposal is clearly problematic [[110]] he simply ignored it and continues with the removal like nothing happens.

I would rather disagree with the "young innocent user" scenario. DevilsWB was already blocked once (as an unlogged editor [[111]][[112]]) due to disruption in this article & he was until recently cooperating with two persitent socks: MorenaReka ([[113]] the only one that found his pov reasonable in the DRN) and Lostrigot (edit-warring in DWB's favor [[114]]). The last one was blocked a few hours before DWB filled this report.

The "third party" user would be User:Zoupan? He easily qualifies as neutral here as much as I or User:Athenean do. You're welcome to present a topic where he took a stance or voted against you or Athenean. So much for the canvass that you try to accuse DevilWB.--Mondiad (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is also worth to mention that there are off-wiki attempts in favor of DWB's pov. For example this thread [[115]] shares the some spelling spelling mistakes with DWB (Greek without cap [[116]]). Thus, if there is a specific user that creates disruption as part of the above that's not me.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As much as User:Alexikoua tries to divert attention out of the article itself, DevilWB is right about the content:
The Italian sources which are the most neutral in this case clearly state di origine Albanese[117] (Kone è di origine albanese ma di nazionalità greca) [118] (greco di origine albanese) - a fragment coming out of his word int the press-conference in Italy - and not "of origin in Albania" as Alexikoua tries to push.
Still related to the content, I made some edits in order to stop any edit-warring and placed all Greek sources along with Albanian and Italian ones. But the Greek text is a mistranslation of the original Italian text ma sono Greco (but [I] am Greek) using probably Google Translate ending by mistake in "but they are Greeks" which would be "ma sono Greci". You are welcomed to ping any native Italian user and ask for an opinion, as a matter of fact I will start searching for one. The importance is that by this statement Kone's family comes out to be of Greek origin, going back to Kone as an Albanian of Greek descent. This is the nutshell of all discussions. Instead of categorizing him as Category:Greek people of Albanian descent it came up as Category:Albanian people of Greek descent. It's not the first time Alexikoua pushes these kind of misinterpretations, and I am pretty sure he understands here to error in translation.
It is too bad we have to loose so much time about his "basic ethnicity" which is clearly Albanian and not focus on other topics, just because Alexikoua doesn't like the idea. At the end, Kone made his own choices in life. He states that he "feels Greek" and he "never denied his Albanian origin". That should be sufficient. The rest should be just soccer.--Mondiad (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Although he was kindly adviced by third part users in the DRN that his proposal is clearly problematic 89 he simply ignored it and continues with the removal like nothing happens. Reading this might give you the impression that these neutral "third party users" (not sure if he meant users or user) decided to step in and lecture me about the problematic nature of my arguments. No, that's not what happened. What really happened, is that one of the users who happened to disagree with me from the get go, explained his position in his dispute summary. It's the same user who later made this statement: [119]
I would rather disagree with the "young innocent user" scenario. DevilsWB was already blocked once (as an unlogged editor [[120]][[121]]) due to disruption in this article
I started editing under my IP-address, and decided to create an account shortly after, but I never hid the connection [122] Yes, I was blocked for disruptive editing, but what Alexikoua is conveniently hiding is that my unblock request was accepted. [123] Further, I did what I promised to do. I opened a DRN, and during the time it was open I only made two edits to the article: I reverted vandalism, and placed an OR tag (which Alexikoua subsequently reverted). I asked an admin for assistance who agreed with me that the entry was troublesome. [124] I opened a RfC. I never touched the main part that was being disputed (the opening sentence under Personal Life), not once! I finally convinced the "third party user" that the entry was problematic, and he made the necessary adjustments. [125] With regards to the other part that is disputed, i.e. "in Albania", I started editing it after the RfC was opened in order to get Alexikoua to engage in discussing it, because he had until then (and still has) ignored the discussion related to this part on the talk page. It's all in my OP.
he was until recently cooperating with two persitent socks: MorenaReka ([[126]] the only one that found his pov reasonable in the DRN) and Lostrigot (edit-warring in DWB's favor [[127]]). The last one was blocked a few hours before DWB filled this report.
Notice the lack of evidence here. For what it's worth, when I first made the DRN request, I didn't even include MorenReka [128], but this was closed by a volunteer since he noticed that MorenReka had made one or two posts on the talk page related to the dispute and his/her participation was thus required. There was never a cooperation between me and MorenaReka, quite the contrary. I told her/him that I preferred to tackle the dispute alone. [129] With regards to Lostrigot, he decided to enter the scene relatively late. But there's no cooperation here either, I agreed with his addition of Kone's origin (something I myself had been arguing for earlier), but I disagreed with his addition of trivia.[130][131]
It is also worth to mention that there are off-wiki attempts in favor of DWB's pov. For example this thread [[132]] shares the some spelling spelling mistakes with DWB (Greek without cap [[133]]). Thus, if there is a specific user that creates disruption as part of the above that's not me.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
How's this relevant? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Attempting to recruit people online to join your battles on wikipedia is very relevant, as it is considered very disruptive. So I'm going to ask you point-blank: Is this [134] you? Athenean (talk) 00:09, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's called Stealth Canvassing: "Contacting users off-wiki (by e-mail or IRC, for example) to persuade them to join in discussions (unless there is a specific reason not to use talk pages)" and/or Meat Puppetry: "Do not recruit your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Wikipedia and supporting your side of a debate.", and both are clear violations of Wikipedia policy. In my eyes this is more egregious than the content dispute.UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 00:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's me. However, I was a new user (only days old). I did not know the policies of wikipedia. If it's sanctionable, so be it. For the record, here's a similar request I made to an editor: [135]. I always had good intentions, I wanted to make something right that I knew was wrong. Also, this shouldn't be a reason to dismiss everything I presented about Alexikoua's behavior. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@UnequivocalAmbivalence: This is not a content dispute, but rather about Alexikoua's behavior. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In this case DWB fully ignores DRN statements, especially from the DRN filled by himself and continues with instant removals. This is indeed serious evidence of disruption from his part. Nevertheless the editor initiated this desperate report, after unsucessful attempts to recruit long-term sock accounts. No wonder it was filled a few hours after the last recuited sock was blocked. I'm afraid that this is a case of Wikipedia:Don't shoot yourself in the foot.Alexikoua (talk) 11:13, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In this case DWB fully ignores DRN statements, especially from the DRN filled by himself and continues with instant removals. This is indeed serious evidence of disruption from his part This is so bizarre. The DRN statement you speak of was from another party involved in the dispute. It's as if I would accuse you of ignoring my DRN statements, or Resnjari's comments. The DRN was closed, there were no volunteers. I didn't edit during the DRN (apart from the edits I made explained above). The end. It's all in my OP. Nevertheless the editor initiated this desperate report, after unsucessful attempts to recruit long-term sock accounts. No wonder it was filled a few hours after the last recuited sock was blocked. I'm afraid that this is a case of Wikipedia:Don't shoot yourself in the foot I have already admitted to "meatpuppery" (see post above), but there were no attempts to recruit long-term sock accounts. I don't think I even knew what sock accounts were then. But, honestly, whatever. I'm not even surprised anymore. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@DevilWearsBrioni: If this wasn't a content dispute than you should have refrained from proffering evidence that your content is correct. Instead, the bulk of your posts here are related to proving that you were right in your content changes, and that his refusal to accept your correctness is at the heart of his "Disruptive editing & dishonest behavior". Secondly, I find your argument that you were new and unknowing to be unconvincing. You clearly acquainted yourself with enough Wikipedia policy to start this report, and by that time you should have become familiar with the core policies, so any failure to understand the rules at this point is on you as it would have to be a willful ignorance. Also the tone of the reddit post makes assuming good faith impossible, as the intent was clearly laid out. The bottom line is that this type of behavior is unacceptable, regardless of whether or not you are right. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 22:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@UnequivocalAmbivalence:If this wasn't a content dispute than you should have refrained from proffering evidence that your content is correct. Instead, the bulk of your posts here are related to proving that you were right in your content changes, and that his refusal to accept your correctness is at the heart of his "Disruptive editing & dishonest behavior". This is absolutely false and the fact that you'd say this makes me question your motives here. The heart of his "disruptive editing & dishonest behavior" is the fact that he repeatedly reverted me without discussing the issue (why am I obligated to discuss, and he's not?), and that the reasons given in his edit summaries are incredibly dishonest. Or do you agree with him that my edit was "refuted on all noticeboards" or that "all noticeboards disagreed" with my edit? Like I wrote in my OP: Unless he can provide these diffs, his reasons for reverting on said basis should be regarded as fabrications. Do you think it's OK to revert without discussing the issue and justify reversions with lies and half-truths? Do you think it's OK to accuse someone of trolling? Do you think it's OK drop a comment like he did on the RfC? I look forward to you answering these questions. Moreover, I'd love to hear what parts of my posts involve "proffering evidence that my content is correct". Secondly, I find your argument that you were new and unknowing to be unconvincing. You clearly acquainted yourself with enough Wikipedia policy to start this report, and by that time you should have become familiar with the core policies, so any failure to understand the rules at this point is on you as it would have to be a willful ignorance. By what time? The post on reddit was written a couple of days after I started editing on wikipedia (2 or 3 perhaps). That was one month ago. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not false. To avoid large blocks of text I will refrain from long quotes, but I will offer this one from your first post. "The Italian source which labels Kone as "greek midfielder of Albanian origin" is interpreted by Alexikoua as "the greek midfielder originating from Albania"." This is a content issue. As to his accusations, the reddit link seems to give them quite a bit of credence. And the phrase "By this time" means just that, right now when you expressed your ignorance as to why your previous actions, which were disruptive and directly against policy, would be relevant. Even if you didn't know then, you should absolutely have known by now, and you should understand why they are extremely relevant. The interceding months should have given you insight into that, and you should understand why they were disruptive, why they are relevant now, and perhaps even show a little contrition about it. I am not condoning the way in which Alexikoa may have been going about asserting his version or that he is blameless, but to my eyes the most egregious violations are your breaches of policy and your failure to recognize them. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 00:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is demonstrably false. There's an important sentence preceding the one you bring up: "This is not a coincidence, but a tactic he's used several times to push a certain narrative. Two other examples come to mind:". It's not about the content per se, but about the pattern of dishonest behavior. It takes a special kind of dishonesty to interpret this the way Alexikoua does, and if there's any ambiguity as to why he does it: the other material I put fourth (originating in/from Albania) certainly paints a picture. As to his accusations, the reddit link seems to give them quite a bit of credence. The "evidence" that I am recruiting "long term socks" pales in comparison to the evidence I've presented with regards to his dishonest and disruptive behavior, but it seems like you don't give a rats ass about that part. The interceding months should have given you insight into that, and you should understand why they were disruptive, why they are relevant now, and perhaps even show a little contrition about it. Months, or month? No agenda here, right? I am not condoning the way in which Alexikoa may have been going about asserting his version or that he is blameless, but to my eyes the most egregious violations are your breaches of policy and your failure to recognize them. I have recognized them. Your focus this entire time has been on me, and only on one side of the story. You don't condone his actions, but you've been very cautious to not condemn them either. You didn't even answer my questions concerning his behavior. Him being blatantly dishonest doesn't depend on my existence. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@UnequivocalAmbivalence:, this discussion was not raised to decide if User:Alexikoua is a good or a bad guy, but rather his behavior towards an article. All this is getting too long. User:DevilWB accuses him "Disruptive editing & dishonest behavior" related to the Kone's article. It has to be seen in the article's context. DevilWB is also taking responsibility for his actions, and not denying anything. Can you please also take a moment to consider if DevilWB is right or not about Alexikoua's behavior in this case? It's not a content issue but user's behavior towards the article's content issue. For what you are saying seems like an editor can do whatever he/she wants with an article as long as the other side is a potential subject to WP:SHOT. By the way, WP:SHOT says There is no "immunity" for reporters, it does not state that the initial topic of the report should be ignored based on a weighting system of who is more culpable. It's not a tool for scaring reporters, but for making sure there are no exceptions to rules. --Mondiad (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An IP on a dynamic AT&T Mobility range has been engaging in persistent personal attacks over the past 24 hours

There's an issue with drafts being shuffled around by Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that's being handled over at WT:WPAFC. However, we've had a repeated issue with an anon placing inflammatory comments over on that page. He was already banned after trying to get Ricky desysoped over at AN but apparently he's on a rather dynamic network and has swapped IPs consistently and continued to leave messages. Here's a hopefully complete list of socks:

He's already been banned on the first IP and it's pretty obvious he's the same guy. Could we get a ban on these and any other socks that he shows up with? --Nathan2055talk - contribs 05:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just WP:DENY and move on please. The same complaint is happening here by regular editors here so if they want to bring it here, let them do it without encouraging this character. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:56, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but we need to at least deal with these IPs. It's vandalism all the same, even if it's on a talk page. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 05:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's been months of this. WP:RBI. This character is following me around demanding the same thing ever change he gets. The subject matter is the excuse. Worst part if I can't even tell if it's from the longevity issues or the Indian caste stuff or the Koch-brother stuff or what but he's been consistently angry with me. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:00, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I considered leaving a polite message asking what draft it was but since he's already been banned after he tried to get you desysoped it'd be better if we just ban these IPs and semi-protect WT:WPAFC for a few days. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 06:04, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I don't think it's a draft that's an issue. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked, not banned. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@The Bushranger: If it's this dude, they are indeed banned.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 16:54, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I meant to say blocked. But since it looks like they have already been banned previously, it's a moot point. In any case, he's back on 2605:e000:3f13:1d00:8a7:d8fe:c0d1:f4f6 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 166.170.48.181 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) doing the same thing he's been doing (either trying to call for Ricky to topic banned from AfC or just spouting personal attacks against everyone involved). --Nathan2055talk - contribs 18:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, then I stand (well, sit) corrected! - The BushrangerOne ping only 00:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah this guy! As Jezebel's Ponyo has mentioned, this particular individual has been quite a thorn for a while. Liberal application of WP:RBI is pretty much the SOP when dealing with this person. A little back history is available here, if anyone happens to be interested. Blackmane (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Blackmane: Geez, looks like that guy's got quite a history, especially with the consistent personal attacks against Ricky. Might ought to consider a range block, at least over 166.170.44.xx and 160.170.45.xx and possibly even higher to 166.170.xx.xx if that won't cause too much collateral damage. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 04:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rangeblocks have been assessed by several Checksusers and are not possible due to extensive collateral.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 17:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the case, can we just get a block on these and then deal with any other socks that pop up when they do? --Nathan2055talk - contribs 00:19, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, looks like he struck again over at bot requests. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 00:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Massive deletion of userspace

166* troll. Do Not Feed, before or after midnight. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DGG is going on a rampage and going to pretty much wild out all of userspace. This requires more than a small suggestion. We can't drive away all out content creators here. 166.176.59.145 (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) Ummm... And what exactly is the reason you bring this to WP:ANI? Kleuske (talk) 10:22, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, an RfC would probably have been a good idea. Or listing at T:CENT. But yeah, a proposal to apply WP:G13 outside of draftspace isn't something to announce on ANI. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 10:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Err.... compare the IP address here with the IP address on this report . Might there be a connection - he certainly doesn't have any userspace to delete KoshVorlon 16:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The WP:DUCK is strong in this one - good catch. Blocked and will hat per WP:DENY. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here to build an encyclopedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just reverted some edits at WP:Here to build an encyclopedia and was going to leave a typical warning but this is above my pay grade. See the result of the edits and the uploaded file. Is any action needed beyond monitoring? Johnuniq (talk) 09:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the edit was suppressed by an oversighter. The image is on Commons but is now tagged for speedy deletion. — foxj 09:58, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eaglestorm and How I Met Your Mother articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In mid-2015, Koavf edited some How I Met Your Mother articles en masse, without leaving an edit summary, performing edits which did things along the lines of removing sections under the headings "Trivia", "Cultural references" and "Music", and adding tags to indicate plot sections were too long or lead paragraphs too short (e.g. [136]). I initially disagreed with him, and even reverted one of his edits ([137]), but after beginning a discussion on his user talk page (archive link), I came to agree with him.

Eaglestorm, before this discussion, was reverting many of Koavf's edits, and has been doing so intermittently ever since. Eaglestorm's edits usually have one of the following edit summaries: "nonsense pogrom", "culling", "revert driveby deletion", "pogrom by converted", or something similar. ([138][139][140][141][142] and many more.) Today, he reverted three of Koavf's edits and wrote this message on his talk page before quickly archiving. Every time I've seen Eaglestorm doing this, I've reverted him/her, leaving edit summaries linking to the discussion mentioned above, citing relevant policies and trying to start discussion ([143][144]). Eaglestorm has refused to open up discussion, ignoring messages left on his/her user talk ([145], until his response today). I believe there have been some other issues involving Eaglestorm's conduct in the past ([146][147]), particularly with their lack of communication. I have avoided bringing them to ANI in the past as their edits were erratic, but this message was probably the clearest indication that Eaglestorm has no intent of editing constructive in this topic ("FU both"). This is not a simple content dispute issue as there have been no objections to the actions of Koavf or I, other than Eaglestorm, who has never started a discussion or (as far as I can remember) cited policy in an edit summary when editing this topic. I'm unfamiliar with ANI so I don't know how things usually work here, but I feel a topic ban from HIMYM articles, or a block would deter this action by Eaglestorm. Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 19:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a subject that should be discussed on the article talk pages. I know that when this series was on the air, the pages were heavily edited and I think a consensus should be attempted because I'm not sure whether either editor has consensus on their side. I remember that it was standard for this series to have Trivia sections for each episode so removing them from certain episodes could be seen as disruptive. LizRead! Talk! 01:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not like Eaglestorm is a newbie. He has almost 13,000 edits compared to 8,000 for Bilorv. I guess that could cut either way. H. Humbert (talk) 06:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
On one hand, Liz, we have WP:FANCRUFT, WP:IINFO, WP:V, WP:TRIVIA, WP:OR, WP:UNDUE; on the other, we have... resistance to change. Have you read some of the content Eaglestorm is fighting to include here? Cultural references such as "Robin's "vice" bag is compared to Mary Poppins' magical bag." ([148] For context in the show, this is one character making a joke about another's bag in a 5-second portion of a ~21-minute episode, and should not be mentioned any more than anyone would ever think of listing all the jokes in the episode. This isn't cherry-picking: this is essentially the gist of every bullet point under every "Cultural reference" section there ever has been on a HIMYM article.) Now I know several Wikia where lists of allusions to any work of media in the real world is standard, but that's not the case on Wikipedia. Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 07:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Eaglestorm is continuing to violate WP:CIVILITY with this obvious attempt at provoking me ("ugly stains by butthurt people"). If this was a new editor, admins would have no problem blocking him. Because Eaglestorm has 13,000 edits, as H. Humbert points out, no one but Liz can even bother to reply here. Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 13:47, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have placed a temporary block on this account for the personal attack noted above, which should show that such comments are not acceptable here. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:53, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Liz here, in that this is clearly progressing into much more than a mere content issue. If it were that simple, I'd suffice it to say that Bilorv and Koavf clearly have the right of this, according to all policy and community consensus on this kind of fancruft. The disputed material (in-so-far as has been presented here), clearly falls under WP:TRIVIA, WP:OR, WP:WEIGHT, and the other policies cited above. This kind of content is, broadly speaking, not important to an an encyclopaedic summary of the subject of those articles and constitutes a kind of bloat upon which the community has very clear standards. I can't see the removal of this content as being very contentious in any consensus discussion amongst experienced editors, though I'm curious nonetheless to know how many editors have been involved in the relevant discussions thus far.

But these content issues are quite beside the point, insofar as ANI-relevant complaints are concerned. The behavioural issues are quite another matter. Edit-warring under any circumstances is problematic, but all the worse when one of the parties is using inflammatory, hyperbolic language like "pogrom" and "conspiracy", which is clearly a violation of WP:AGF and general common sense when it comes to measured discussion between contributors. There's also a pretty significant implication of WP:OWN and lack of perspective and understanding of the collaborative process of WP anytime an editor invokes the kind "things were just right until you came along" sentiments that can be seen here. As if that were not enough, the "FU" comment blows by the bright line with regard to WP:CIVILITY and is not to be tolerated on this project. This is all superfluous commentary, given Martin has taken the action clearly warranted in these circumstances, but I thought I would add my voice to those urging the editor in question to learn to be less attached to his content and better internalize Wikipedia principles and procedure, or at least to understand that civility is the best route around even those you think are trampling on good content. Bear in mind, all I know of this dispute is what has been presented here, but in light of that evidence, I rather suspect Bilorv and Koavf are to commended for keeping their cool and for pursuing the issue through proper procedure. Snow let's rap 01:16, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your input, Snow Rise. I'm afraid I feel that Eaglestorm is not going to change, following their presumably intentional choice to refuse to discuss this even at ANI, the edit summary "illegal block by conspirators", this rant and rude comments to IPs like this (although to be fair, the IP was wrong to make this revert). I understand that Eaglestorm has been around for a while and made a lot of edits, and while I'm sure many of the ones he/she makes today are still constructive (e.g. this and this, although I'm not familiar with the subject matter), if they were a new editor solely reverting edits to HIMYM articles and writing these overly intense rants, I would probably be quoting WP:CIR. They've been blocked five times and they still don't get the message. I don't wish them any ill will, but I do feel that this discussion has been in vain. However, I still hope Eaglestorm will take your comments on board and try to react less angrily and defensively in the future. Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 22:52, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose indef block. While this thread does look to be a masquerading content dispute, what we really have here is a user with a long history of blocks for edit warring, refusing to discuss anything in any venue, and personal attacks. Wikipedia is a collaborative project; any one of these would be unacceptable behaviour as isolated incidents, but together and in a pattern they show an editor who is not here to build an encyclopedia. Their response to the NPA block above was to post a screed disguised as an unblock request railing against the "deletionist alliance" (paraphrased) working against them, which after their block expired they removed immediately with a note decrying the "illegal block by conspirators" (removing a personal attacks block notice with another personal attack), followed by a nasty note (now deleted; it included the text "Get lost and mind your own business, loser!") to an IP with three edits. We don't need any more of this kind of editor around here. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I'm afraid I have to agree. Unfortunately, this user appears to unambigously lack even basic competency with regard to our most minimal standards for civility and the collaborative process. Indeed, despite more than eight years on the project, they seem to lack familiarity with many of our most straight-forward content and behavioural guidelines. At this point, it is pretty obvious that they will not desist in outright harassing any editor which they perceive to be members of the "conspiracy" that exists in their head; they cannot disengage from said editors because "these assholes" are "RUINING EVERYTHING!". Frankly, at this juncture, the diatribes have devolved to the point where I honestly don't think they can be described accurately as anything but meltdowns and temper-tantrums. Even putting aside the paranoid suggestion of conspiracies, I just don't think this user has the social maturity required to participate on this project. Snow let's rap 02:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Snow rise has summed it up nicely. For an editor to have been here as long as Eaglestorm, this really is unacceptable. Blackmane (talk) 05:00, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Snow Rise, as well as the fact that this editor should know this type of behavior is unacceptable, considering they have over 13,000 edits and have been here for eight years. Not to mention this[[149]] complete lack of trying to recognize wrong behavior, as well as trying to shunt blame to other editors in a ban appeal. Boomer Vial (talk) 07:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eaglestorm continues incivility and refusal to co-operate in a different topic, Ace Combat articles, with this and this edit summary directed at ScrapIronIV. I'm unsure as to what "going after me with all those other editors" is supposed to mean (possible this very ANI thread, which is completely and utterly unrelated?), but "unjustified stupidity by troll" is a violation of WP:AGF at best, and in my opinion another personal attack. I think that an indef block is warranted. Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 18:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have had minimal interaction with this editor. As posted in links above, posting a 3RR warning on their page was "unjustified stupidity by troll", warning them of that incivility was "continued harassment" and made me part of some cabal that is out to get them. I do not believe this is acceptable behavior. ScrpIronIV 18:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I'm going to have to agree with Snow Rise on this matter. This degree of uncivilized behavior is appalling to say the least. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Hoaxes

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58.96.113.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked on January 8 after creating many many nonsense pages/hoaxes. The block expired and the IP address has returned to creating even more hoaxes. Qpalzmmzlapq (talk contribs) 02:09, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked for a year. The IP appears to be static and this has been going on for a long time. Acroterion (talk) 03:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Block evasion

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User:LongDistance06 was previously blocked and has since evaded the block under the new account User:NewLongdistance06 without discussion of why the indefinite block should be removed. SFB 15:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked, with a little information on their page about what they need to do to be unblocked. It's not exactly a well-hidden sock — maybe they simply didn't understand that a block applies to the person. Bishonen talk 15:42, 25 January 2016 (UTC).[reply]
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Backlog

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There is a massive backlog on WP:AIV and consequently a vandal I reported an hour ago has spent the last half an hour writing "fuck you bitch" on my talk page. Can someone please handle this? 108.94.155.69 (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Legal Threat

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Diff Clear threat of taking legal action against FoCuSandLeArN. Winner 42 Talk to me! 19:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Now blocked. EdJohnston (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Long term abuse

Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Py0alb

Please refer to this ANI which resulted in a warning to User:Py0alb following "conduct (that) is attacking and ill-informed". The admin at the time said that "a block for incivility at this point would be more punitive than preventive. However, any more attacks or warring by Py0alb will be met with sanctions". A formal warning was placed on Py0alb's talk page and was promptly deleted by Py0alb.

Py0alb is a very occasional visitor to the site with just only 582 edits in five years and yet he makes bold claims about site policy as if he is an experienced and regular user. He seems to become involved in conflict every time he visits the site as a check of his talk page and contributions will reveal. For example, an argument with User:115ash led to him posting this warning which was not justified. On his own talk page, there is this complaint about his attitude. He has also been in breach of copyright.

He had not been on the site since November last year and reappeared on 18 January with this confrontational attack on the major cricket article. I considered his tone and his use of the phrase "un-encyclopaedic gibberish" to be a breach of WP:CIVIL. I therefore reverted his edit and suggested that he puts forward a constructive argument if he wants someone to respond to him. His response to that was to reinstate his original post, "warning" me that I will be banned and demanding that other people are polite and respectful to him. Admittedly annoyed by his attitude, including his apparently entrenched view that the term does not exist despite the evidence in the article, I responded by advising him to study the citations. His response to that was to again threaten me with a ban because I, and not he, am guilty of abusive behaviour. Apparently, it is abusive to suggest that he needs to read the citations to understand that the term does exist and has widespread usage.

He placed a PROD on the article, claiming that the term does not exist, despite the citation evidence. That is his prerogative and it is mine to remove the PROD as I do not agree with it, so I did so. He came back and reinstated the PROD, demanding that the article is deleted immediately. This is, of course, out of process because if a PROD is rejected by an interested party, the next step is to take the article to AfD. His second attempt at PROD was removed by another user who advised him of the correct procedure.

Today, having been inactive for two days, Py0alb blanked the entire article and placed a redirect on it. His comment was a threat that anyone reverting his change would be banned, which is bang out of order. He made reference to a previous AfD in 2011 when an earlier version of the article was deleted because it lacked citations. The current version has several citations from significant sources to comply with WP:GNG. Besides blanking the article, he went into the talk page and declared that it is "a direct contravention of Wikipedia policy" (this from someone with only 582 edits in five years) to recreate an article that was formerly deleted. Any article can be recreated if the earlier issues (in this case, no citations) can be resolved. He finishes by saying without any authority whatsoever that "The article will now be deleted for the final time".

Frankly, this person is a troublemaker. He seeks confrontation and it is evident from his attitude to this article and also to the Indoor cricket article for which he received his warning two years ago that his sole rationale is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. He has obviously not learned anything from the formal warning which, remember, he immediately deleted from his talk page. I recommend an indefinite WP:BLOCK for someone whose behaviour is repeatedly hostile, abusive and unreasonable. Jack talk page 21:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AfD on this page was discussed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Major_cricket. Consensus is to delete. Jack is ignoring this consensus and is now engaging in an edit war and engaging in a personal vendetta against me (see this completely unnecessary ANI for an example). This is not a personal matter, it is merely a matter of correctly following protocol. I understand that it can be difficult when a page you have worked on is deleted - I have experienced this in the past - but Jack needs to calm down and understand that this page is unencyclopaedic, and that his opinion alone is not sufficient to supercede a clear consensus. I do not want a war, I merely want correct protocol to be followed. The phrase is a nonsense.
Thanks, Py0alb (talk) 00:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're absolutely wrong as a matter of policy. Fortunately, another editor has reverted you, or I would have done so myself. But you don't have only one choice (take it to AfD); you can also tag it per WP:CSD#G4. Frankly, I doubt an administrator would delete it on that criterion, so taking it to AfD again is the better option. From the diffs above, this isn't the first time you've made statements or acted as if you are a policy wonk when in fact your grasp of many policies is sorely lacking. No one expects editors to understand all the Wikipedia policies, but you should at least have enough insight to know when your interpretation of policy is at least close to correct. I suggest that at a minimum you step back from some of these confrontations, or you are going to find yourself in trouble.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:16, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Bbb23. You may note that since writing the above, Py0alb has tried to canvass support from the other editor involved in the dispute. He has not, however, been successful and has again been told to follow the correct process. What he is saying about consensus is ill-informed, to say the least. The article that went to AfD in 2011 was completely different as it was no more than a stub that, crucially, lacked citations. I did not take part in that AfD but thought the decision to delete was fair enough. Since then, usage of the term has increased and I keep hearing it in discussions on the media and at cricket grounds. I decided to research it and found that it is now quite widely cited so I decided to recreate the article and capture a range of sources so that it will meet WP:GNG, not just the NCRIC SNG. I am not engaging in an edit war as I have only reverted one of his changes and that was effectively a response to vandalism because he had blanked the article without following due process, and that after the process had been explained to him by another editor. To say that I am conducting a personal vendetta is a ridiculous statement. I am not even protecting the article because I was quite happy for him to PROD it and I would be equally happy to defend it at AfD. I want only two things from this: one is that the article will be treated with respect which includes being taken to AfD in a constructive manner if someone deems it necessary; the other is that I do not have to deal with ill-informed, opinionated editors who are confrontational and rude from the outset. In view of this editor's past record of confrontation, including a formal warning that he has completely ignored, not to mention the serious doubt I have about someone who appears sporadically yet writes as if he is a continuous user, I still recommend that an indefinite WP:BLOCK, especially as he has again blanked the article since I restored it yesterday and repeated the correct process to him. Jack talk page 07:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is something I am slightly confused about, in that Jack claims above "I was quite happy for him to PROD it" and yet this edit reveals something different: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_cricket&type=revision&diff=700427615&oldid=700423682
Aggressively defending articles you have a personal interest in from due process is really not the sign of a constructive member of our community.
Py0alb (talk) 09:32, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please try to format your responses in the proper way. You make discussions difficult to read. There's nothing confusing about what Jack said. He said it in his opening post. You prodded the article, and he removed it. Your prodding the article was your prerogative. Reinstating it after he removed it was not. Your last sentence is more meaningless rhetoric than anything else. At the same time, some of Jack's allegations in his last post are off the mark. The reverts here by you were wrong, but I would not label them vandalism, just a repeat of your misunderstanding of policy. Also, your last revert came before my comments above, and at this point it's fairly clear that you're not going to heed good advice from Jack, but did from another editor (the same one who reverted the reinstatment of the prod). So, I don't think that last revert is anything surprising. Finally, whether you should be blocked for what you've done is unclear. If it were clear, I would have already blocked you. Regardless, jumping to an indefinite block of an editor who has a clean block log is a rather drastic sanction. I would think any sanction would depend on how you conduct yourself after this discussion. Certainly, my 3-year-old warning is not as relevant as a more recent warning, and, in any event, was limited to personal attacks. Although your style is more aggressive than collaborative, I don't believe a case has been made for personal attacks. I'm more concerned with your competence and whether your edits are a net benefit to the project.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:37, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bbb23. Looking at the history of Major cricket, I see that Py0albadded a PROD tag to the article, which was then removed by BlackJack. Py0alb then reverted the PROD tag removal, which is not proper procedure; if the PROD tag is removed, the article must be AFD'd (or CSD'd if it meets criterion - even though I agree with Bbb23 that administrators rarely delete per this criterion unless blatantly obvious; an AFD is preferred). Despite the fact that another user correctly reverted the restoration of the PROD tag (note the edit summary), he reverted the page twice (here and here) before finally nominating the article for AfD as instructed by multiple users. This is edit warring in my eyes, as multiple users have attempted to leave edit summaries describing proper process, and the changes were reverted outside consensus and despite a discussion on the article's talk page. Py0alb - You should stop making reverts such as what you did recently. I note that you have since nominated the article for AfD, and I wouldn't block you for edit warring since you seemed to have stopped (if I was an admin) - but you need to acknowledge this, listen to other editors (especially when multiple editors step in to correct your reverts and actions), and discuss disputes before reverting. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:02, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since raising the AfD, he has written this which indicates that he is continuing to ignore advice given by other users. In the AfD itself, he has voted twice and he has made a personal attack: both entries removed. In addition, he is evidently seeking to mislead readers re the citations and persuade them to ignore non-internet sources, claiming that "'Its in a book I once read, trust me' is not a valid form of evidence". Apart from its nonsense value, this constitutes a serious breach of WP:AGF. It doesn't end there. Since raising the AfD, he has removed a link to the article from another article. Frankly, this is all completely out of order and I repeat that WP:BLOCK is necessary in this case. Jack talk page 05:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that these edits may have issues, but I'm not seeing a personal attack against another editor here (addition diff). It appears to be a logical analysis to me (taking "right or wrong" out of the equation). When it comes to the issue of edit warring, he has ceased doing so. Py0alb has voted; we just need to let the community have a chance to give input and come to a consensus. If disruptive editing occurs, that's a different story. However, until this happens, I suggest that we step back (both of you) and let the AFD take its course. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:37, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
you are of course correct, I have maintained a rational, impersonal, and professional dignity throughout this discussion. I have nothing agaisnt jack on a personal level, I simply feel that the page in question quite clearly fails WP:V and needs to be deleted from the site. A "personal attack" might constitute raising a spurious ANI and repeatedly insisting that another editor be given a block simply because you don't agree with them. If an editor acted like in such an antagonistic and uncivil manner, I think the admin might need to consider looking into their behaviour at that point Py0alb (talk) 18:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't a personal attack, that is a ludicrous accusation. I just repeated the point made here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Cricket&type=revision&diff=698008924&oldid=698004810 that the term "major cricket" is one that has been invented by wikipedia editors as a convenience. There is nothing personal about this. Py0alb (talk) 09:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant external link - useful/valid or too close to "outing"?

I'm writing an article on the UK undercover policing relationships scandal. As part of this I came across the following link (embedded in the wikimarkup via comment to avoid oxygen: ><). It aims to identify and document relationship aliases of the kind condemned by police chiefs today, as far as I can tell. I'd like views whether or not it is appropriate to add this as an external link.

Why it might be appropriate:

  • High profile issue in UK; police themselves acknowledge in their statement that this activity was completely unacceptable and that targeted persons are considered victims of abuse
  • Genuine research value - a person researching this area may well have a legitimate interest in learning what is known and cases it arose, which is hard to find elsewhere
  • Factual rather than opinion, not designed or intended as an "attack page" per se
  • "Names" are of persons using aliases in which there is legitimate significant public interest

Why it might not be appropriate:

  • Could be considered an attack page anyhow, even if not intended as one?
  • We don't have to advertise people's details as "persons who may have been involved in a kind of wrongful official action" (although we usually do when they are known and we have an article on the matter, see 'Death of Freddie Grey' and others).
  • Potential for harm vs potential for beneficial encyclopedic information?

Comments appreciated; this is a delicate decision I wouldn't like to make without some sense of how views shape up and/or consensus. Not posted on article talk page in order to avoid oxygen there until it's clearer and because I'd like experienced views on it. FT2 (Talk email) 11:47, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ELN might be a better place, though it seems somewhat dead. Maybe advertise this request for feedback there? --Izno (talk) 14:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've been involved in the discussion directly above this one, and I happened to glance down and notice this – and I also happen to have been involved in recent discussions about the outing policy, so it's something where I have been giving the subject some thought. Of course, you are not proposing to out any Wikipedia editors, but it happens that none other than Jimbo Wales himself put a sentence into the outing policy long ago, that says that one also should not "out" the subjects of pages, a concept that today would be more associated with BLP. It seems to me that the critical issue for you to consider is the extent to which the EL would reveal real names or other personal information about the persons using those aliases, to a greater extent than what is generally known throughout the source material. If there are lots of other published sources that name these people, or link to their names at that EL, then you really would not be revealing anything that isn't already public information, and there would be no problem with the EL. But if you have found a website that just happens to have this personal information, but that information is not widely known, so that these persons could be considered private individuals rather than public figures, then I think that it would be best to omit the EL. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:MusicHistory101

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I noted at the bio article Axe (battle rapper) the lack of reliable sourcing and added a ((notability biographies)) tag diff. MusicHistory101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who is also apparently 73.35.68.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)[150] and Topbookclub (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)[151] keeps removing the tagdiffdiffdiffdiff without bothering to improve the article reference wise and saying I "have to go through the forums and read them to see the rich history of the sport and beginnings of battle rap". Civility went down hill from there with the user calling me a "person who hates Hip-Hop music" and "some sort of racist" and saying "your account could be deleted for racism and acting maliciously with intent to discredit a person and destroy valid articles"talk. Pointing out Wikipedia policy and guidelines has gone nowhere. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have made numerous attempts to resolve the issue and have noted several times that the article clearly meets notability guidelines. He seems obsessed with me and destroying this one particular Wikipedia article for which I can only make guesses as to why. The user Fountains of Bryn Mawr should read the guidelines instead of continuing to act in this manner. User:MusicHistory101 25 January 2016
I've sent the article to WP:AFD, as I fail to see how the subject meets notability guidelines. OhNoitsJamie Talk 22:57, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've also sent the related Fam Nice to AfD, who looks even less notable. Laura Jamieson (talk) 23:45, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You can delete these articles. That's fine. However, these people are definitely a notable part of hip hip history whose work greatly contributed to the rise of the hip hop and battle rap culture. If you actually read the articles you would see that. People such as Mickey Factz, Novel, and dozens of other hip hop artists who these two men help launch their careers know who they are, so they will always be a part of hip hop history even if they aren't a part of Wikipedian history. Good luck in your manhunt and I hope that some of you find something to do in your spare time other than destroy the credibility of music pioneers. Thanks for your time. User:MusicHistory101
We can't delete them under your say because you aren't the creator of either article. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 01:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Help with archive bot

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Hi, everyone. I added a bot to Emily Dickinson's talk page to archive past discussions. I don't know what happened to the previous one, since nothing had been archived in the past three years. The problem is that the new bot archived the discussions in Archive 2, when there is an archive 3.[152] Could someone fix the issue? (also, and transfer the mistaken discussions in archive 2 to archive 3?) Thank you, --Lecen (talk) 13:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lecen - I've incremented MiszaBot's counter to 3, meaning it will now use archive 3 (until it's full, then move onto 4 etc) -- samtar whisper 14:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And have copy/pasted the mistaken discussions to archive 3 Face-smile.svg -- samtarwhisper 14:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much!! I'm truly grateful for that! --Lecen (talk) 14:15, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! -- samtar whisper 14:16, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Justinw303 and NPA/UNCIVIL

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Following an edit war with another user and the resultant AN/EW reports, Justinw303 has engaged in repeated personal attacks and incivility, to wit:

Clear violation of UNCIVIL and NPA; access to talk page should be revoked. 🖖ATinySliver/ATalkPage 00:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fully agreed. Time to block this user. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:19, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support block. --allthefoxes(Talk) 00:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've reblocked the account, this time for two weeks, for continued battleground behaviour. If they continue to use their talk page to launch personal attacks then access can be revoked.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 00:22, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ironically, he's not wrong about "then go away. It's pretty fucking simple." Face-grin.svg 🖖ATinySliver/ATalkPage 00:30, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Tainted AfD

I'm referring to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joey Bond. Several strange things are happening there: four "keep" voters (plus a single-edit IP) showed up there, all parroting similar lines, and noticeably failing to address the lack of credible sources in the article being discussed. One of these is a single-purpose account. Two others are very close: one of them left 128 messages on the other's talk page in the past three months. All this is bad enough, but now, three of these four have taken to assassinating my character on another forum. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I do think there's something suspicious about the whole scenario, and I'd appreciate some administrative input. - Biruitorul Talk 16:27, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything suspicious at all. You nominated an article, others think it should be kept. To say that Checkingfax and Natalie.Desautels are somehow meatpuppets is laughable. Newsflash: editors who collaborate in the same area often message each other, and if someone finds a helpful person they often ask that person for help in the future. Jbeaton5 has admitted he got a bit oversensitive and has apparently moved on. So should you. Katietalk 17:24, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the fact that other users disagree with me that I find problematic — although it would help if said disagreement were based on policy rather than emotion and empty rhetoric. It's the frivolous accusations of incivility and tendentiousness, the forum-shopping, the seemingly coordinated feigned outrage, the baseless ridicule, the consistently diversionary arguments, the piling on for no reason other than that I nominated for deletion a deeply problematic article. I don't have a problem moving on, but I did want the record to show that my complaint is not entirely without merit.
And yes, Jbeaton5 is still a single-purpose account, while 96.20.154.75 is still a single-edit IP. - Biruitorul Talk 19:25, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am a pretty regular denizen at BLP discussions - and I assure you that a person who even gets into the NYT is more likely than not to meet Wikipedia notability criteria. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this requires any administrative action, Biruitorul. The fact that an IP made their first edit to vote on it, for example, will be taken into account by the closing administrator. Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 21:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive/problematic IP

Need help with a problematic, disruptive anon IP --107.107.58.183-- geolocating to Brooklyn, NY who has been targeting my edits today. Currently, the IP is reverting at Drake Bell in what seems to be a mission to have me dinged for a 3RR vio (see here and here). The same IP has been adding and reverting back in what is incorrect information about a photograph at the Billy the Kid article for the last couple of days (see here, here, and here). It seems they are mirroring edits made by this IP (see here: [153], [154], [155]). Not sure if this IP is the same as the problematic and disruptive Brooklyn, NY/Bronx/NY IP I (and others) have encountered numerous times over the last year or so? Whatever the case, their edits and reverts are not helping either article. In fact, I have finally gotten an edit warrior at the Drake Bell article to finally start discussing edits rather than reverting -- the IP edit warring as well has certainly thrown a wrench in the works. I don't expect they will stop reverting, rather, this will continue if not dealt with. Page protection would be great, and I'd rather see that happen over blocking, but since they now seem to be following me around Wikipedia, protecting one or two articles may not be the answer. -- WV 22:47, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Now this IP --166.172.61.144-- (geolocating to the Bronx) has joined in :[156]. I do believe they are either working together or are the same individual. -- WV 22:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As the disruption/edit warring has continued [157], I have filed a RPP here. -- WV 23:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another Bronx IP has joined in: [158]. -- WV 23:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • If it's any help, the 166.x.x.x IP range is known to be used by disruptive editors and have been summarily banned from Wikipedia. clpo13(talk) 00:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lynda Obst Productions

Please see the mess at Lynda Obst Productions.

A couple different IPs in the same range really messed things up. Reverted to last version prior to that. Doesn't appear to be any warring or anything. Just lack of competence from an IP, which most likely requires no ad.in intervention. John from Idegon (talk) 06:24, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing by 2607:FB90:43:660A:D7A8:3DC6:D8BD:6BDA

This editor - 2607:FB90:43:660A:D7A8:3DC6:D8BD:6BDA - who has also edited as 2001:558:6007:71:1D73:C89:31B2:941, 2607:fb90:41:819e:2d0e:1d0f:e2e1:9b77, etc. - seems to be becoming increasingly disruptive, and when blocked simply moves IP address. The problem is not that their edits are vandalism as such, as many are helpful - but they are sometimes contentious, and the editor has totally ignored all attempts to communicate with them. The editor leaves no edit summaries, and has never, so far as I know, commented on a talk page. The contentious edits, so far as I am concerned, relate to the years of birth of Dave Bartholomew and Freddy Cannon, both BLPs. They also have a habit of removing redlinks, despite being warned not to. I admit to getting exasperated with this person because of their complete refusal to communicate - I would be more than happy to discuss with them how best to address the issue of the contentious birth years (through footnotes, etc.), but I cannot resolve a dispute when the other editor refuses either to explain their edits or communicate in any way. Advice or action welcome. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Just an update - the 12-hour block yesterday had no effect, and the editor is continuing to remove redlinks as before, without any discussion or edit summaries, most notably at Roscoe Lee Browne. Can anything else be done? Thanks, Diannaa, for protecting Freddy Cannon and Dave Bartholomew. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

promo-seo.co.uk

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Large numbers of user accounts have been set up in the past few days, each making a single edit adding a spam link to one of a number of related websites offering tennis-court surfacing or similar services. First reported on talk:Spam-blacklist, but it seems to have outgrown the scope of this option. Example edits include:

Please list on the spam blacklist, we have automated tools there for blacklisting the spammed domains. Guy(Help!) 19:02, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
plus Added. I've also started Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bobblehat99 to out any more accounts and domains. MER-C 03:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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POV Pushing/edit warring by user at Criticisms of Marxism page

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Pablo Rosentown over at the Criticisms of Marxism page has attempted to POV push. Does not bother with the talk section, seems to have created a profile just for this one edit and has been reverting the removal of their post from different IPs. It may be vandalism, but seems more politically motivated. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 04:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I would have brought the issue at the edit warring section, however, it seems that this user has created the account just for this one particular edit. There is no other history other than this edit. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 04:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This editor is clearly yet another sock of the serial puppeteer Need1521, and I have submitted an SPI. RolandR (talk) 10:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Uncivil header on editor's talk page

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Unframboise has added header text to his talk page which is receiving some opposition from editors but he keeps restoring it whenever it is removed as being uncivil. Unframboise does have a history of incivility and, in August 2015 Floquenbeam even blocked him for "acting like a jerk".[185] My involvement with Unframboise has been minimal until this discussion started at Talk:NCIS (franchise). He pretty much abandoned the discussion after deciding he was going to add disputed content to the article regardless. In a subsequent discussion at WT:TV he made the rather uncivil comment "Clearly I overestimated the intelligence of some editors".[186] Subsequent attempts to continue discussion on his talk page resulted in more incivility when he linked to this gif containing the direction "You should fuck off. now." when I tried to discuss another matter.[187] He also replaced all the content on his talk page with Hi, welcome! It's a fresh year, so here's a nice, fresh talk page. If you're here to nag (I'm looking at all you Herr Wikifuhrer brown-shirts, throwing about your barnstars) then please don't, I'll ignore it and go about my business as I usually do..[188] The offending text "Herr Wikifuhrer brown-shirts" was redacted by Drmargi with a note about civility (and other things),[189] and there has been discussion about it on user talk pages. Most recently, Unframboise has attempted to justify the text in a way that doesn't seem any more civil,[190] but since it is causing offence, I thought I'd raise the matter here and ask, should Unframboise be permitted to have this on his talk page? --AussieLegend () 12:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This header was not meant to cause offense, but instead it was meant to be a jesting dig at the senior editor culture present within the wikipedia community. After stumbling across [191] discussion taking place about me, without my knowledge (further reinforcing my existing perceptions of an existing senior editor clique), I decided I should spell out, in simple terms, the jovial nature with which the header was intended. Indeed, I find it worrying that you and your fellow editors feel the need to frequent my talk page. Of course, if this discussion is just about the header, I would appreciate if it didn't turn into an all out assault (bringing up resolved issues from a year ago, etc.), although I'm fully aware that any time now I'm going to be inundated with notifications from your pals jumping on the bandwagon, as usual. I could dig up past transgressions on your part, but I don't see the point. I think you should - to put it nicely - mind your own business, as this is beginning to feel like a personal attack. The header has gone (because apparently the freedom of speech that is so well spoken of in America doesn't extend to the internet -- Certainly, I don't see why your false perception of this header referring to a European regime causes so much offense, as a citizen of a non-European country. I won't be commenting on this thread again. Its bullying masked as bureaucracy. --Unframboise (talk) 19:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I'd like to point out that just because yourself and your "senior editor" friends are subtle in your uncivil behavior (phrases such as "go play elsewhere", "petulant and childish", etc., spring to mind), it doesn't make it any less uncivil. Indeed, I'm sure you've perfected this art over your many years, but if you look at my user page you'll note the vast amount of excellent editing I've put into wikipedia over the past year. How long before you get over the "being a jerk" thing? (Also an uncivil comment, by the way). --Unframboise (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the header was intended to cause offense. Why else would you put it there? It's mean, and it's tasteless. There is no circumstance under which referring to other editors as Nazis/fascists is other than a personal attack, and as such, it has no place on your talk page. Period. The same was true of your misogynist "humor" you directed at me that you claimed wasn't intended to demean -- and look where that got you. As for the discussion on an editor's talk page, there is no requirement we inform you. There's a very simple solution to this issue, and it lies entirely in your hands: knock off the tasteless garbage you try to justify as humor. --Drmargi (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unframboise's latest version[192] took the offensiveness even further than previous versions. The page has been blanked[193] by Drmargi, but I suggest a simple final warning to Unframboise that any more such abuse of their talk page will lead to a block without any further warning ... and that blocks will escalate with each further offence. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't directed at anybody in particular, it was witty repartee, much in the same vain as British comedians including John Cleese (circa Fawlty Towers). Obviously this is a regional divide in terms of what we find amusing. There was no reference to Nazism at all, I can't help what you infer. Of course, if this caused offense then I apologise, but I'll be cold and dead before I let another user dictate what I put on my user page without even consulting me first. BrownHairedGirl, I'm failing to understand how an edit to explain the header didn't refer to Hitler's political leadership is *more* offensive. Who knows. --Unframboise (talk) 00:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unframboise, it wasn't witty. It was just offensive trolling.
Read WP:UPNOT. There are limits to what is permitted on your userpage.
If you want to be a martyr, that's your choice. But there will be no statues, and no ballads about you. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
See, this is what I mean. So-called "senior editors" throwing around demeaning comments like "there will be no statues, and no ballads about you." Just because it isn't explicit, it doesn't mean its not uncivil. Wikipedia is a hostile environment if you're not part of the clique. I don't think I want to be a part of this Mean Girls-esque community. --Unframboise (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it's a hostile environment mostly because you post banners comparing people who don't see things your way to Nazis. When people ask you not to do that, they are not being hostile. They're being reasonable, and asking you to tone down your hostility so we can get some work done around here. --Jayron32 00:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was recently involved with Unframboise over content at Code Black (TV series). They initially added content about a cast's departure. I reverted them. A few days later (may have been shorter), they restore it. I again reverted as it was unsourced and original content. WP:Burden was seriously disregarded and assumptions were made when nothing had been confirmed (speculation). They then added the same edit, using the most unnecessary edit summary on earth: do I really need to go to this much effort to spell things out to people?. From I can clearly recall, three policies were blatantly ignored. I did see Unframboise's talk page header when I gave them warnings. Drmargi was the one to really give me clear view about it. Whilst I do believe it had been there for quite some time now, I found it highly uncivil, rude, mean, wrong and unnecessary. It's not the first time I had been called nazi-related insults, but it still bothered me. I cannot thank Drmargi enough for having redacted the uncivil comments. Then the user tries to restore the talk page? What's even more insulting is when they tried to justify their comments by actually adding definitions of each word. Who does that? And now mockery is their "thing" with this: I wonder how long it'll take before someone comes and redacts this. So many bees in so many bonnets. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} 00:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He removed the block message [196], so I restored it.142.105.159.60 (talk) 01:29, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A user is allowed to remove the block notice while blocked. They are not allowed to remove denied unblock requests. -- GB fan 01:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: I think more blanking is required: [197]. I googled the quote and I was led to a page about "serious leadership lessons". Callmemirela🍁{Talk} 01:41, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's a well-known one-liner from a stand-up comedian. Don't be so precious and move along. Nothing to see now. Keri (talk) 01:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Understand the meaning of the italicized word. And frankly, I don't care about your opinion. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} 02:15, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, deep breath ladies. Brown Haired Girl has handled the situation, and unfortunately, Unframboise needs the last word, however petty it may be. It's no skin off anyone's nose. I think the best move is a little WP:DENY. Whatever else your squabble may be about, it might better be taken to one or the other's talk page. In the meantime, perhaps an uninvolved admin might consider closing this? --Drmargi (talk) 02:22, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • When someone complains of Nazi's, and the first response is to go jackboot over their userpage, its never going to end well. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Talk page vandalism

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/128.186.134.156 — Preceding unsigned comment added by FoxNewsChannelFan (talkcontribs) 04:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

IP warned, OP given explanation on how to deal with such matters. I'm hoping this leaves the matter...
Resolved
Ian.thomson (talk) 04:30, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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WikiBriefed - continued disruptive editing and incompetence

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WikiBriefed has been brought to ANI before for disruptive editing and battleground behavior, but that ANI case went unresolved. WikiBriefed continued the disruptive editing and was blocked on 26 November 2015 for personal attacks and edit-warring by JamesBWatson. WikiBriefed continued the personal attacks and was blocked by Bishonen for repeatedly making unsubstantiated paranoid accusations that I am a "Salman fanbot" (a fan of Indian actor Salman Khan) and that I am on some sort of idiotic hate-fueled crusade to denigrate another Indian actor, Shah Rukh Khan. Pure fantasy.

As to the competence issues, much is detailed on the user's talk page. Most recently, in these edits he restores the word "illegal" in the sentence "The film criticizes the prohibition of alcohol, prostitution and illegal drugs in Gujarat." The word was previously removed by DMacks as redundant with prohibition, which DMacks explained. While this sounds like no big deal, it demonstrates that WikiBriefed is trying to maintain a single vision for articles, and is interfering with the productive evolution of our content. In the same edits, he introduces a random blog as a reference. He also adds the following tidbit: "Khan will be seen in a never before seen look from 1980s ghetto Gujarat", which is clearly parroted from here and is also glaringly trivial.

Today I found this gem, where WikiBriefed seems to believe he can indiscriminately copy/paste the entirety of the obviously promotional summary found here, just by adding a ref. He apparently didn't bother to check if the tone of the content was appropriate for inclusion, leaving in rhetorical questions like "how difficult could it be for the world's biggest FAN to get an audience with the world’s biggest Star" and the obviously promotional statement "In an edge of the seat thriller". These are somewhat moot points, since it was inappropriate for him to copyvio the plot summary. Between the battleground editing, the content stonewalling, the personal attacks, and the copyright violations, there's no indication that this editor is capable of participating constructively in this community project and I'd probably recommend an indef until he can convince the community otherwise. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:56, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indef blocked, at least until we can get some confidence that this user understands our basic principles. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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More incivility in autism AfD

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There is more incivility in the AfD for List of people with autism spectrum disorders article mentioned a few days ago, this time by User:Calton. See here, here, here, and here, all directed at the same anon IP who is making efforts to improve the article to address the concerns expressed in the AfD. According to his talk page, Calton has a history of incivility, so I'm not inclined to assume good faith at this point. Smartyllama (talk) 01:08, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: He also posted uncivilly on the IP's talk page. Smartyllama (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here [198] he told me I needed to "get new reading glasses" and then offered to recommend retailers that sold eyeware. He recently told Neutralhomer that he was "delusional" and "self-absorbed" [199] while here he apparently accused a different editor of suffering from schizophrenia [200]. It appears he's previously been blocked 9 times for incivility on charges ranging from "taunting" to "racist edit summaries." [201]LavaBaron (User talk:Lavaetalk) 02:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is Calton's SOP, insult and keep insulting, rules be damned. How he is still an active, unblocked user is beyond me. I personally believe that Calton needs to be blocked indefinitely as he doesn't offer anything positive to the project. - Neutralhomer has EscapedTalk • 02:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)f[reply]
It does seem odd. Maybe 10 times a charm, though - at this point - more drastic protective measures do seem in order. LavaBaron (talk) 03:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that you selectively quoted part of a page claiming that it supported your idiosyncratic opinion whilst utterly missing the immediately following paragraphs that contradicted it, then it's a fair question to ask how you managed to miss it. --CaltonTalk 02:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. "You deserved it," is certainly the most novel defense of CIVIL I've seen, but I guess there's a first for everything. LavaBaron (talk) 04:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "you deserved it", it's "you don't what you're talking but should, why is that?" SO: you don't know what you're talking about, but should: why is that? --Calton Talk 06:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As for Smartyllama's yammering about "good faith", considering his attempts to lard List of people with autism spectrum disorder with criminals using laughable sourcing -- "his mother said he had Asperger's on an online forum" is good enough for him -- or even create a separate criminals-with-autism list despite there between no connection whatsoever between the two elements, he set fire to his own expectation of good faith in what he's trying to accomplish. --CaltonTalk 02:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't the AfD. Your conduct is at issue here, separately from whether you may have had a point. 50.185.134.48 (talk) 03:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, my proposed "separate criminals-with-autism list" was nothing of the sort. It would discuss the numerous studies which show no correlation, and incorrect claims by certain individuals to the contrary. It could even discuss the recent controversy over President Obama's proposed gun control measures which would prevent certain autistic individuals from owning guns and was opposed by several autistic advocacy organizations. Smartyllama That being said, after looking over the sources again in more detail, rather than just looking at the publication and seeing if it was reliable, most of them were not reliable, and the ones that are (such as Adam Lanza) have remained in the article. I have no objection to the removals that were made at this point. (talk) 11:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to close. I reviewed the diffs offered by the OP. Nothing egregious stands out, other than the usual heated discussion. I blame the lack of structure in AfD discussions. We need less free for all and more regulation. Perhaps we should limit all participants to one initial comment followed by one discussion reply. We need less talk and more action. Some things don't need to be endlessly debated. Viriditas (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There has been a pattern of issues cited in the last 30 days that should be addressed first, particularly in light of the (astonishing) nine previous blocks for the same issues to which the editor of this ANI has been subject. Even in the ANI itself, the subject of this report seemed unable to contain himself, using words like "yammering" to describe Smartyllama's input, for instance. LavaBaron (talk) 06:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Nine blocks for incivility and his responses here show Calton isn't going to change. This isn't a "heated discussion", it's Calton's SOP of nonstop insults and snark with zero positive contributions. This, this, this, and this are all from yesterday (minus the Autism AfD ones). All laden with insults and snark, no positive contributions. Just to add to this, he actually uses TWINKLE to revert "most wins" to "winningest", even proper english and sentence structure doesn't stand a chance with him. Some serious sanctions regarding his incivility, insults and snark, or just a long-term block are needed for Calton. This is not business as usual here, this is a problem editor who has proven time and time again that he will not follow the rules. So, we as a community, must make him follow those rules or show him the door. - NeutralhomerTalk • 06:52, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This abysmal "winningest" junk is turning up everywhere. My experience is that the people pushing to include it don't just want to lower the tone of the encyclopedia, but the tone of every conversation about it. Reyk YO! 07:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gotta agree with ya there. I have even heard it on the news (ex: "the winningest coach"). If I had used a word like that as part of a sentence, I'm pretty sure my 7th grade English teacher would slap me with something. :) I even use the Oxford comma and a double space after sentences, both of which are rarely used anymore. I can thank my 3rd grade English teacher for that one. :) So, in the greater scheme of things (Calton's incivility, etc.), it isn't super important, but I thought it was worth mentioning. - NeutralhomerTalk • 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose- Calton is right about the substance of this dispute. That's a crappy article, and unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum are no better than "I heard it from a bloke at the pub". But Calton sure does have a way of making you want to disagree with him even when he's right, with constant sarcasm and insults for no good reason. Reyk YO! 07:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know. It seems to me that people here are distracting from the underlying problem with the article and why it's at AfD. I am not the least bit interested in analyzing or examining Calton's tone or personality. I'm more interested in what he's saying. There's way too much discussion on this. Put it through AfD, one comment per person, and then close it. Stop arguing about trivialities and find something else to get offended about. Viriditas (talk) 11:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The AfD can be discussed there. Even if Calton is right, he went about it the wrong way and that needs to be addressed. If he had no previous bans for incivility, I might be inclined to assume good faith and be done with it, but he has nine, so I'm not. And the very anon Calton attacked has made significant efforts to improve the article and address the AfD concerns. Smartyllama (talk) 11:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Calton's conduct in the AfD can be discussed here, as well as his recent conduct elsewhere. For example, it might be discussed whether telling an editor on sight to "go away, you are supremely unqualified to edit here" is a statement on the merits of the article under discussion, or something else. 50.185.134.48 (talk) 16:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • And in the case of his statements towards me on this very ANI, it shows he is often either willfully ignorant or unable to comprehend the arguments others are trying to make. To quote the article's talk page, here is what my proposal was.
"I don't think we need a specific list article for that [referring to infamous individuals], but we could have an article called Autism spectrum disorder and violent crime or something like that which discusses the individuals in question as well as the lack of overall connection between the two in more detail than the main ASD article, this list, or the articles on the individuals themselves can provide. That would also be a good place to put forth the factors any additional diagnoses might have played in those individuals, provided such claims are reliably sourced and not original research. But this article is not the place for that. We could add a "See also" at the bottom once said article is created though to make it easier for people to learn more." So in fact I specifically said I did not support a separate list article for infamous individuals as I understood another user to be proposing. Rather, I was proposing a detailed, non-list article to discuss the studies in question which show no connection, as well as individuals who falsely proclaim there to be a connection, as well as the fallout from this controversy (which would include the recent gun owner controversy and a Congressional proposal barring the Social Security Administration from cooperating and enabling the law to be enforced.) Smartyllama (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
ANI doesn't deal with content disputes. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize that, as Smartllama claims, that "willfully ignorant" was a synonym for "entirely accurate". Or maybe it's not, and he's simply proving my point for me.
This is not rocket science: if you create an article called "[X] and [Y]", you are connecting the two subjects "X" and "Y". And if you do that, you'd better have an actually reason for doing so, either because there actually is a connection or because there is a specified belief in such a connection. Your comments above make it clear you think there IS some sort of connection being made. Unless you have some evidence that someone, somewhere actually is making this connection, creating the article -- or, in your case, advocating for the creation of such an article -- is creating the connection out of thin air. Wikipedia policy won't let you pick random unconnected things together -- Redheadedness and crime, Autism and hair color, Dwarfism and alcoholism, Leo (astrology) and astigmatism -- to make articles, even if you promise to put a disclaimer in it, because of the implication the very existence of such an article entails. In effect, you're borrowing a page from creationists and their Teach the Controversy tactic. --Calton Talk 06:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If nobody's making the connection, this whole AfD is rather ridiculous and pointless since it's predicated on the fact that people are, in fact, making the false connection. And that's still a separate, non-ANI issue, regardless, and should be discussed elsewhere. And again, nowhere did I propose creating a separate list, which you claimed I did. You can't have it both ways - either people are making the connection, in which case by your own admission the new article is acceptable, or they're not, in which case the AfD is based on false premises. And that still has nothing to do with your incivility, which is the reason for this ANI. Smartyllama (talk) 16:04, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, this is a content dispute. Please keep this discussion off ANI. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As I mentioned above, but just stating for the record. Calton's personal attacks need to be addressed regardless of whether he has a point. The AfD concerns and the concerns about Calton's actions are not mutually exclusive. And changing the entire structure of AfD as user above proposed would require more community input than a single ANI request. Smartyllama (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I strongly disagree. This is the second concurrent ANI thread on the same topic you've started in the last several days. Please stop. All discussion needs to be confined on the discussion pages. As both ANI threads show, this is a content dispute, despite attempts to show otherwise. Please close both threads. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Viriditas: So you would like the community to just overlook continued behavior by a user, 9 blocks for incivility, and an unwillingness to change one's behavior because Smartyllama started another ANI thread? I'm hoping you aren't actually serious.
I can't speak for the other thread, but this one should not be closed until Dalton's ongoing behavior problems are addressed by the community. - Neutralhomer has EscapedTalk • 06:24, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to go back and check: you and your original block-evading sock have been blocked twenty times (not counting administrative reblocks), including 5 indefinite blocks and 8 blocks whose edit summaries explicitly mention harassment and personal attacks. That's not counting your other sockpuppets created to harass me. So, should the community overlook that, too? --CaltonTalk 06:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is about you, not me. This is about your behavior, not mine. Sorry, you can't turn the tables on this one. - Neutralhomer has EscapedTalk • 10:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The AfD is not the appropriate place to discuss lack of civility by a user. And this was a different user and a different page than the original, so I fail to see your point anyway. And besides, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy so even if incorrect procedure were followed in creating an ANI, which it wasn't, that's not a reason not to act. Smartyllama (talk) 15:01, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for Resolution: ~6-Month CBAN

Since the above discussion appears to have run its course, I'd like to proffer a concrete proposal for consideration. Based on the preference indicators expressed in the views above, I suggest a six-month sitewide WP:CBAN could be applied on Calton. The question I propose for resolution is:
By community consensus taken in accordance with the WP:RECIDIVISM decision, and due to a pattern of past incivility evidenced by nine blocks for the same - a pattern which continues with no indication a change of behavior is forthcoming - Calton is banned from making any edit, anywhere on Wikipedia, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances (except as otherwise specified) until 1 August 2016. He may continue to post to his Talk page and edit his userspace during this period. The community further expresses its will that an indefinite block be placed on the Calton account should this CBAN be violated.
I am pinging everyone who participated in the preceding discussion, namely, Viriditas, Smartyllama, Reyk, Neutralhomer, Calton, 50.185.134.48LavaBaron (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support for reasons previously stated by me in response to Smartyllama's OP. LavaBaron (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: As I said above, Calton "is a problem editor who has proven time and time again that he will not follow the rules. So, we as a community, must make him follow those rules or show him the door.". This proposal forces him to follow the rules of Wikipedia. - Neutralhomer has EscapedTalk • 06:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Calton has nine bans before. Clearly he hasn't learned and we need to step things up. Smartyllama (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose second transparent attempt in one week to get an upper hand in a content dispute by silencing critics and running circles around active discussion already taking place in the appropriate venue. The forum shopping and asking the other parent needs to stop. Viriditas (talk) 19:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What? Are you talking about me? LavaBaron (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's talking about me, since I opened this. I'm perfectly willing to have a civil discussion about the article in question. Calton, it seems, is not. Stop treating the AfD and this ANI like they're mutually exclusive, because they're not. One deals with the contents of the article, one deals with the actions of a specific user in said AfD and elsewhere. Smartyllama (talk) 19:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The content dispute is the central theme of this and the other thread up above. Please keep the content dispute where it belongs. Viriditas (talk) 20:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're the one who's bringing the content dispute here. Not me. This has nothing to do with the content dispute. This has to do with Calton's lack of civility, in the AfD and elsewhere, as I and others have said repeatedly. Also, I now believe Galerita was acting in good faith in spite of whatever civility and/or 3RR issues he may have had, and have moved to close that ANI. Calton, on the other hand, has a repeated history of this and has exhibited such behaviors recently outside of this AfD, including in matters in which I have no involvement, and thus no bias. Smartyllama (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment supports my contention that this thread (and the other one up above) should be immediately closed. I don't see a lack of civility, I see you trying to get an upper hand in a content dispute. I also question your judgment. I have not participated in any related article or discussion about this subject, nor have I discussed it anywhere. This entire thread is about your dispute, and Calton's comments are directly part of that dispute and on point. You're trying to silence your critics by pretending this isn't about your dispute. Luckily, people like me can see right through this. As an uninvolved editor I oppose your attempt to silence the opposition. Viriditas (talk) 20:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Did you even read the difs above? I don't know on what planet "sucks to be you" could be considered civil. And as other posts above (which were not by me) show, he was also uncivil to LavaBaron and Neutralhomer in discussions I wasn't even involved in and thus couldn't possibly be biased in. And those weren't civil either - calling others delusional and telling them they obviously need glasses, among other things. Not to mention I'm not the one who complained about those, and even if you ignore the AfD issues, which you shouldn't, you still have failed to address other users' concerns about those. If you want to civilly discuss the content dispute, I have no problem with that. Otherwise I would have reported every single editor who opposed me instead of just the one who resorted to personal attacks. Smartyllama (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you asking me if I read the diffs when I said in my very first edit to this thread that I did? I'm beginning to sympathize more and more with Calton the longer you continue this IDHT campaign. I think a topic ban on you and others might be warranted if this disruption continues. Viriditas (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you continually making this a content dispute when I've said several times it isn't? I'm not disputing the content right now - that's what the AfD and RfC are for and I'll abide by whatever comes out of it. This is an issue of Calton's repeated incivility. And even if we ignore the incivility on The AfD because Lord Almighty Viriditas says I'm biased and that alone is sufficient reason to ignore what I'm saying, that still doesn't address his repeated recent incivility to other users which I wasn't involved in, which I didn't report (they did) and which you have repeatedly failed to address. It just seemed like you hadn't read the difs because if you had, I don't know how you could possibly think in good faith that they were civil. And I should note you have a history of bans for incivility even lengthier than Calton's. Perhaps he's not the only one who needs a ban for incivility right now. Smartyllama (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By all means, keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. Your intolerance for opposing opinions is hereby noted and supports my proposed topic ban on you from all autism-related topics. You are continuing a content dispute here on ANI in two separate threads. You are disrupting Wikipedia because you refuse to consider opposing opinions might have merit in their critical approach. Instead you frame all criticism as ignorant and uncivil. Thank you for clearing this up. Viriditas (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not. I've been reasonably nice to those with differing opinions who express them respectfully and in compliance with Wikipedia policy, including Galerita once he started discussing the matter and stopped edit warring. Calton and yourself have shown a lack of willingness to discuss things civilly, and that is what this ANI is about. Not the content dispute, which I am taking up in the right channels and have said repeatedly I will abide by whatever comes out of it. At this point, and judging by your past ban history, I am convinced you are showing an utter lack of AGF in addition to your incivility. Calton isn't the only one who needs a lengthy ban in my mind. Smartyllama (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck trying to ban and block everyone who disagrees with you. I'm seeing several admins and at least one arb who are opposing your arguments. There's nothing uncivil about telling you to stop misusing ANI with your content dispute and your attempt to canvass supporters for the AFD. Viriditas (talk) 22:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like you're the only one opposing my arguments on this ANI. And the merits of the AfD, as I have said at least a dozen times, are irrelevant to this discussion. That you still don't understand that shows you are not acting in good faith in this matter. Smartyllama (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In the unusual event that someone actually falls for your rhetoric, I would like to set the record straight: in a ranking of contributors who have added content to list of people with autism spectrum disorders, you are listed third.[202] Not surprisingly, you have voted to keep your contributions in the AfD.[203]. Unfortunately, consensus is to delete the article. So you've been trying to stir the pot with multiple ANIs. Viriditas (talk) 00:27, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Try again. I'm listed sixth. Another false claim by you. And as I've said 15 times, the AfD isn't the issue. I don't care about the AfD. Let that fall where it may. It's a civility issue. And you have repeatedly and willfully lied, and this time it's blatant. Smartyllama (talk) 00:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reading comprehension is important. As the above link shows, you are ranked third as an editor who has added the most content (by bytes). You are ranked sixth only by the sheer number of edits. In other words, five editors have made more edits than you, but only two have added more content. Instead of repeatedly making personal attacks based on your reading comprehension problem, it would be better if you took a break from the content dispute. You have acted incredibly uncivil here and throughout this thread because you are a vested contributor whose contributions are about to be deleted by consensus. Both ANI reports are an attempt to distract the community from your poor contributions. Viriditas (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't about the content dispute, which I have't been involved in for several days. This is about Calton's incivility. I don't know why you can't seem to understand that. Smartyllama (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, okay. Couldn't figure out about to whom he was referring. I didn't think I'd even edited the same article as Calton ever, let alone had a content dispute! LavaBaron (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. 6 months, or indeed anything close to that, is unwarranted. Drmies has just now blocked him for a week. I'd say that should suffice for now, and this entire thread should probably be closed. Softlavender (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to closing admin: Please note that Hallward's Ghost issued an Oppose !vote to this proposal, but posted it elsewhere [204] (I recommend that they post it here, in the correct place). Softlavender (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per my reasoning below. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 02:45, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It may not have been fair to ban Calton while this ANI is still in progress as now he can't respond. Perhaps we should undo that ban, and if this measure fails as too extreme but there is support for some sanctions (as Softlavender proposed), reinstate it at that time. Smartyllama (talk) 11:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Calton wasn't banned, he was blocked. Please learn the difference. And I haven't proposed anything beyond Drmies' one-week block, which is entirely sufficient to this case. Again, now that Calton has been blocked, I recommend closing this entire thread before it starts to WP:BOOMERANG on Smartyllama. Softlavender (talk) 11:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even though I supported this proposal (and still do), I believe there are plenty of eyeballs on Calton so that when his block ends he won't repeat this behavior at least for awhile. With that said, I support closing this thread. - Neutralhomer has EscapedTalk • 12:05, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with NH. Block #10 will definitely be the one that changes his behavior. Support closing this thread. LavaBaron (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for mixing up the terms "block" and "ban". I take full responsibility for inadvertently using the incorrect terminology, though I don't think that's as big an issue as Softlavender is making it out to be. Still, I'd support closing this too - hopefully Calton learns his lesson, and if not, we have a bunch of people watching him. As for the rest of what Softlavender said, I know you proposed no additional sanctions, but unlike some in this ANI, you did feel there was incivility and some sanctions were in order - namely the one-week block which has already been implemented. Sorry for the confusion. Smartyllama (talk) 14:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for Resolution: ~6 month CBAN on Viriditas (plus above sanctions on Calton)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm starting to think Calton may not be the only one being uncivil here. Seeing as Viriditas has a history of bans for incivility and WP:AGF violations even longer than Calton's, is exhibiting the same behaviors in this very ANI, and is showing a lack of ability and/or willingness to comprehend what civility even means, Viriditas is banned from making any edit, anywhere on Wikipedia, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances (except as otherwise specified) until 1 August 2016. He may continue to post to his Talk page and edit his userspace during this period. The community further expresses its will that an indefinite block be placed on the Viriditas account should this CBAN be violated. 21:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Support per what I just said. Smartyllama (talk) 21:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As an entirely uninvolved editor who has had zero participation in the disputed article in question or its related disputes such as the AfD, this proposal substantiates my claim that Smartyllama is misusing Wikipedia as a battleground and attempting to canvass support to fight his opposition on ANI. Smartyllama's attempt to threaten any editor who opposes him and criticizes his opinion is the problem, not Calton. Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • A claim you have absolutely no evidence to support, and which I have explicitly said on multiple occasions is not the case, thus supporting my claim that Viriditas is not assuming good faith. I have repeatedly said on multiple occasions this is about Calton's lack of civility, and if you'll notice I didn't report anyone who was actually civil. I reported a 3RR issue by a new editor who didn't know any better, now that he does I have had no issues with him and discussed the matter civilly. I have also not filed ANIs against the ~15 people who civilly supported the deletion without edit warring. As for the one edit war, I'm willing to assume good faith that the editor didn't know better, being new, and drop it. Calton and Viriditas have been here long enough to know better, and have repeatedly not done so. Viridita's claims against me were, and continue to be, completely unsubstantiated, thus proving my own point. If the AfD results in deletion, as it looks like it will, I will abide by that result. That's not the issue, as much as Viriditas wants to make it one. And Viriditas seems to admit that my one minor editing spat on the main article didn't even violate 3RR. Plus he has a lengthy history of AGF violations and baseless accusations. Smartyllama (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your accusation of canvassing for votes in the AfD is equally baseless and not at all supported by my edit history. Smartyllama (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Whatever the merits of the arguments over comments related to the AfD, all Viriditas did was offer opinions here. Let's not compound the dispute. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't wish to post on each of the CBAN proposals, so whoever eventually closes this discussion, please consider this post my blanket oppose to all of them. They all smack of trying to silence their opposition using ANI, at least in my view. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin)(My talkpage) 22:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • And with regards to Calton's incivility towards other users in completely separate discussions - they're also trying to silence the opposition by complaining here? Smartyllama (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More Steve Comisar annoyances

This biography article has repeatedly had "fans" of the subject advocate for inclusion of various things, and people actually threaten editors who had removed them (see ANI archives).

One common thread with a few of these advocates had been that, instead or in addition to making their point on the article's talk page, they have spammed the personal talk pages of every editor involved with the same long statement. You can witness the latest incident of this sort at Special:Contributions/205.115.188.114. Should this be ignored and should it be assumed to be good-faith behavior? LjL (talk) 21:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jim bexley speed, TheThoughtfulOrc, Ruby Murray, Cwobeel, Tokyogirl79, DanielRigal, and Onel5969: pinging you as the involved parties who received the talk page message this report is about. LjL (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This story has something for everyone: Canvassing, probable sockpuppetry and possibly also paid editing. Discussion is ongoing here too: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TonySpraks. I am assuming that this will lead to the people responsible getting blocked very soon and then it will all calm down. I'd be sad if it meant that Comisar lost his internet access completely (or if that is already the case) as there is so much scope for education and entertainment that he could be taking advantage of instead of wasting his time trying to manage his own reputation. If Wikipedia stands for one thing it is to bring knowledge of the whole world to anybody who who is interested, prisoners included. I find it genuinely sad that he is not interested in any of that, only in himself. The talk page messages are unwelcome and somewhat annoying but I am just rolling them up on my talk page. So long as he doesn't start with the snail mail again I'm not going to get too angry. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't forget the offline and online harassment, if I'm reading the article's talk page correctly. At one point Comisar was sending out multiple letters to at least one editor's home address, which was viewed as harassment given the amount of letters sent AND the fact that one of the sockpuppets began making threats. The IP shows up as being located in Jacksonville, NC and is through the Naval Network Warfare Command, but I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. Now if this is accurate and the IP is someone in the military editing on behalf of Comisar, they need to stop. The military does not take well to people taking part in harassment campaigns, which is essentially what's happening here. They might not be making threats like TonySpraks, but these accounts and IPs are all making the same claims based on the same, unusable sources. This shows some clear off-line coordination so even if this is a case of different people, it's still clearly meatpuppetry. This unfortunately also makes it difficult to tell if this person is one of the same people that have already posted or if it's someone who is spamming the page with the same requests because they're all being told to go to the page and use these specific sources. I'm leaning towards this being multiple people using a script to ask for changes because Maniamit (one of the more vocal people recently to lobby for Comisar) wrote something similar and claims to be located in India. Can we lock the page to where an admin would have to approve any edits to the page? This has been going on since 2011 and it's only going to get worse once he gets released from prison. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 23:09, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm usually opposed to full page protection unless there is continuous vandalism that cannot be dealt with timely enough. Here, for now, we seem to be able to revert the dubious edits just fine with semi-protection alone, so, I would leave full protection for another day. I note that this IP editor directly claimed we "educated" them "on the Wikipedia editing process", so I would say that's an admission that they are the in fact one of the same people that have already posted. LjL (talk) 23:21, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's an annoyance at this point. I was simply going to delete messages like that to my talk page, and just keep an eye on the article. Onel5969TT me 23:48, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One of Comisar's puppets threatened me in a very ugly fashion about five weeks ago. WMF legal got involved and asked if I would talk to law enforcement about it. The next day, I got a call from a Naval Criminal Investigative Service investigator who confirmed that the threat came from a Navy IP address, and that they were trying to figure out who was responsible. Comisar and his puppets want the article to state that he is an experienced actor as well as a multiple convicted con artist. He is also reaching out to any actor in Hollywood who has been in jail or prison. He is clearly lobbying for an acting career when he gets out of prison. Cullen328Let's discuss it 07:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just curious, is there a reason the article's set to PC1 instead instead of full SPP? - The BushrangerOne ping only 08:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jethro's team will solve this mystery! LjL (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason anyone should watch that show is if a kidnapper shows up and says, "Watch an episode or die!" --QEDK (T 📖 C) 16:36, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: the IP I've reported here has been been blocked for a week for disruptive editing; the SPI involving them has concluded, but unsurprisingly, no word has been stated about the IP; anyway, most of the spamming at the Steve Comisar talkpage has been hatted, and it seems like it will continue to be as it happens in the future. LjL (talk) 15:10, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Checkuser won't link an IP with a named account, but there was sufficient behavioural similarity between it and Curiouskitten777 for the week-long block to be applied. There's also enough here to pursue any new IP or account that comes by with the same set of actions (spamming usertalk pages with requests to make proxy edits saying Comisar is an actor). So, yes the socking will likely continue, but please re-report at the SPI if a suspicious new IP or account appears - it should be quicker to resolve than it has been in the past. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:44, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Euryalus: is this a good example / test case? Maniamit was determined by checkuser to be unrelated to the sockfest, but the pattern is the same, and some editors have conjectured he might be a meatpuppet (paid editing or similar). In any case, it was in his plain sight that others who pestered editors with this lobbying were hatted or even blocked, and yet he just went ahead and made a personal editing request to Tokyogirl79 on the article's talk page. LjL (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Raggz BLP violations

Raggz (talk · contribs) Repeated violations of WP:BLP policy; drawing own conclusions (WP:FRANKIE) from multiple sources to apply controversial labels not stated in the sources. Labels considered incendiary in US politics (Marxist, communist, Trotskyite, supporter of revolution) are being used based on combining membership in the Socialist Alternative (United States) with other sources that draw conclusions about that party. Reputable sources that have followed Sawant's political career have consistently called her a socialist and given little or no attention to the Marxist and Trotskyite labels.

Diffs:

  • [205] -- calling a citation for blocking a street during a protest, later thrown out by a judge, "criminal activity". No reputable sources have ever called Sawant "criminal"--Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:45, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was not a civil trial but a criminal trial. His edit was better phrased and I accepted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raggz (talkcontribs)
The Socialist Alternative Party is a revolutionary Trotskyite Marxist party.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raggz (talkcontribs)
  • [209] more of the same after final warning

BLP/NPOV policy warnings: [210][211][212][213][214] --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:45, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am just an editor with no political agenda regarding this article. Dennis is all of this true for you as well?
I am not acquainted with the subject, nor am I am not a member of this revolutionary Marxist party. I have accepted some of Dennis's edits and agree that these improved the article. In particular the criminal issues were better addressed with his edits.
Well, I suppose that I do have an agenda here to state. I dislike politicians that mislead us as to their true political agenda and political philosophy. I have edited this article with the intent to ensure that the Reader is not misled. I had never heard of her and could be mistaken, but this is not a forum for that discussion. Dennis, why are we even here and not on the Talk page? Have you even once engaged in Talk?
Bottom line recommendation, explain to Dennis that we talk about our edits and try to reach a consensus before we come here. Raggz (talk) 07:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In biographies, the default position is to remove the disputed negative material until a consensus is reached that it is suitable for inclusion. In this case, it's my observation that relentlessly attaching the phrase "Marxist" or "Trotskyite" to every single mention of her political party affiliation is not good writing style, never mind BLP. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure what the big deal is here. Multiple RS describe Socialist Alternative as Trotskyist - e.g. ... MSNBC [215], Seattle Weekly [216], Seattle Post-Intelligencer, [217], etc., and the diffs of Raggz' edits show the addition of descriptive prefixes to the party, rather than to Sawant's name. (Also I know this isn't admissable but, purely as an aside, in conversations I've had with officers of the SA they've described themselves to me as Trotskyist, and, IIRC, it could be I'm wrong on this, but SA is a member of the Committee for a Fourth International, aren't they?) The question about "citation" vs "criminal activities" I agree with, however, it seems Raggz deferred and accepted the change so not sure what the prob is there either. Maybe I'm missing something. LavaBaron (talk) 08:03, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does this BLP still contain disputed, controversial assertions? {{disputed}} does not belong on any BLP. The policy at WP:NOCONSENSUS is "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." These disputed epithets and labels need to go now. Reach consensus on the talk page before restoring any controversial claims about a living person.--Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Epithets" seems a little hyper-dramatic for what's been described. LavaBaron (talk) 19:03, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Boaxy misbehaving and socking

This user has been consistently attempting to add an LGBT category to Unfinished Business (2015 film) in an attempt to push a political viewpoint. However, I initially disagreed with what the category specifically meant; especially without a verifiable source to back it up. Boaxy claimed that he didn't need a source because it wasn't "original research." [218]

At that point, some unknown user (whose IP kept changing daily) stepped in and tried to undo Boaxy's vandalism. But Boaxy continued to edit war over the inclusion of the category for several days, during which Boaxy logged out and used an IP address (71.116.235.134) to further push his viewpoint. [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224]

At one point, Boaxy finally added a source, but the other user reverted it after he reviewed the source and found it to be unverifiable because it was just a short review with no talk about the film being targeted to an LGBT audience. Boaxy used his IP evasion again, in which I discovered what was going on and decided to refer this matter to this board. [225] [226] [227] [228]

I bring this matter to your attention to also remind the administrators of the fact that Boaxy was previously involved in edit-warring to include LGBT categories on some Sailor Moon articles (during which he also threw temper-tantrums and made personal attacks against other editors - myself included - who opposed the additions) in 2015, and was subsequently topic-banned from editing Sailor Moon articles. [229]--Loyalmoonie (talk) 17:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)Chris[reply]

I ask whoever is in charge of this procedure to watch the film. You only need to watch the first fifteen minutes or so to see why the LGBT category is perfectly being fine to be added. I put the category without a reference as the LGBT category is not original research. One of the four main protagonists is homosexual so that automatically warrants a LGBT category. As my oppressor thinks I'm pushing an agenda, I added a reference and they still insist I'm being spiteful. I'm not. The LGBT pop culture category should be removed if I can't use it. It's there for a reason as wikipedia is LGBT friendly and my oppressor has to just deal with it and accept it. Boaxy (talk) 04:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Boaxy tried to be bold and add Category:American LGBT-related films; it was rejected. Given that this is a BLP issue here, the caution says no until there's good reason. I see no discussion at Talk:Unfinished Business (2015 film) so take the discussion there and I suggest Boaxy provide more than personal WP:OR of "you need to watch the film". And this source of not particularly reliability doesn't tell me anything that says to call it a LGBT-related film. But again, I could be wrong so onto that talk page, please. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • What do you mean tried to be bold? I saw this movie for the first time around Christmas Eve or so, and I always check to see if Wikipedia is up with pop culture as they usually are. I thought to myself, there should be a LGBT category as one of the main protagonists is homosexual and there is lots of lgbt undertones in the movie, such as being at gay parades, gay bars. etc. I look and see there isn't one. I didn't fret that much over it as this movie is still quite relatively recent. So I added the category without a source as I didn't think it warranted one, and it really doesn't. It's quite obvious the film is LGBT related. Some things do not need to be sourced if it isn't original information or things that need to be cited, like box office prices, behind the scenes information, etc. I'm more than willing to add more sources, but what good would it be if they get removed because there is a user who believes I'm pushing a gay agenda? But I also said this seems to be a conflict of interest. I don't know the wikipedia term for that, I'm sorry. Loyalmoonie seems to be stalking me and thinks I'm pushing a gay agenda. I been on wikipedia for 11 years. I don't need to push anything. If someone is gay related, I'm going to tag it as such. If he/she has a problem with that, they need to talk to the wikipedia staff to remove the LGBT tags and projects and shit. I'm sorry. Boaxy (talk) 20:52, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • And as far as the sockpuppeting goes. I edit on my mobile phone and the app doesn't seem to use my username sometimes. I mentioned this before. I think as long as I'm not sockpuppeting on disputes or etc., it shouldn't matter. It's obvious it's me editing it. Boaxy (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks by User:Blethering Scot

Reported by BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Any suggestions on how to dissusade User:Blethering Scot from a series of personal attacks across two RM discussions, which are repeated in edit summaries (contrary to WP:ESDONTS)?

Some examples among many:

  • [230] " saying you lied is not a personal attack" - edit summary "You did lie, you are a liar"
  • [231] "you were called out on your lies". edit summary "you are a liar"
  • [232] -- edit summary "Stop replying if you truly want it to be enough"

The last one is a clear statement of intent to drive me away from a discussion of which I was nominator.

I have asked them several times to desist, and discuss the substance ([233], [234]), but it only makes things worse.

What to do? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:34, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Blethering Scot notified[235]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't personally think this is worth an ANI filing. If you don't like the way Blethering Scot is expressing himself, don't engage with him further. It's a survey(s), not a debate(s). Blethering Scot's points are that the vast majority of other Scottish teams with "Saint" in their name use the full stop on Wikipedia, so in terms of WP convention, the convention is to use the period. The fact that Blethering Scot is being rather clumsy in his communication is fairly irrelevant in my view. As always on Wikipedia, focus on content, not on other editors or their behavior. Just ignore the wording, focus on content, and let other people !vote. Don't clutter the page(s) with unnecessary conversation. Softlavender (talk) 03:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I thought that XFD and RM were consensus-forming discussions in which policy and evidence assessments were scrutinised and discussed, and not just WP:VOTECOUNTing. Closers are certainly instructed not to just count heads, but to weigh a debate.
      As you can see, I did try to focus on content, and did significant research on common usage. But I was just met with tirades of abuse.
      BS's claim is as you say, that "the vast majority of other Scottish teams with "Saint" in their name use the full stop on Wikipedia" ... but reality is that it's 50-50 (3 each way, less than I had initially thought). I would have replied to correct that, but the barrage of abuse is intimidating and explicitly intended to intimidate. Is that really acceptable? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 03:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He may have gotten heated in his replies on the two similar RMs but that's something that can be easily ignored and redirected to discussions of content. It's always best to completely ignore insults, name-calling, accusations, etc. and stick only to content. Every single editor on Wikipedia will get name-called, accused of something, or insulted, if they are here long enough. The trick is to overlook that and discuss the content issue behind the words. I don't personally think the blow-up on these two extremely similar RMs warrants an ANI. If this were a longstanding problem across multiple subjects and over a long period of time, and had also been attempted to be resolved over a long period of time, on user talk pages, then it might. But I don't personally see anything actionable here other than a return to sticking to RM !votes and WP naming conventions. Softlavender (talk) 03:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be interested to see if others share that view that aggression and personal attacks are just "clumsy communication". WP:CIVIL/NPA/AGF are supposed to be fundamental policies. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 03:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've missed my point. This is one instance (on two nearly identical RMs). If you had had problems with the user over a lengthy period of time across multiple subjects, and had tried to work things out with the user on their talk page over a lengthy period of time, that would be the time for an ANI. As it is, I personally think the behavior best and easily ignored. (But maybe that's just me; I don't let myself get baited by other people's name-calling, and in content discussions I stick to discussing content, not editors' behavior or the way they express themselves.) Softlavender (talk) 04:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be focusing on target's strategy for dealing with attacks, rather than on the acceptability of the attack. That seems to me be as misplaced in this context as in any other -- there are many ways in which people can minimise exposure to attack, or mitigate its consequences, but they shouldn't have to. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm focusing on your handling of this matter, and whether an ANI was warranted at this juncture. See Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#First_offenses_and_isolated_incidents. Softlavender (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Brown haired girl is correct to complain. Unless there is clear evidence of lying then calling someone a liar is a personal attack and a failure to assume good faith. I don't think we do the project any favours by asking the victims of personal attacks to toughen up or ignore it, if we don't work to make sure this is a reasonable place to be then the good people will leave and only the stubborn and rude will remain.

@Blethering Scot: is reminded that accusations against editors must be backed up by evidence or they should be kept to yourself. Repeated or egregious personal attacks can result in a block. HighInBC 04:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also Softlavender I don't think that it could be called a first offence or an isolated incident if it is ongoing after a request to stop. Also notice a previous block for personal attacks in October. A warning is sufficient now, but if it continues it is actionable. HighInBC 04:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - Agree a final warning is warranted. This is a complete overreaction concerning whether an article title should contain a full stop. Not the first time the editor has engaged in personal attacks. Should be made clear that any further similar behaviour will be met with a further block. Fenix down (talk) 09:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@HighInBC: my accusations were backed up clearly with evidence. BrownHairedGirl lied, she had refused to withdraw that lie. i provided clear evidence proving her statement was false. She said enough, but kept replying thats not my fault but hers. You issued a ping reminding me to provide evidence, this indicates you did not read my responses. i provided evidence to prove she had lied in her statement of as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football clubs. This was a false statement in my view to mask her mistake and misleading opening. I proved this to be false, yet she thought it acceptable to continue to lie. I do not see calling out an editor for her lies to be a personal attack, nor will i apologise for it. if that means a block then go ahead. It is my view that @BrownHairedGirl: should be frankly embarrassed. She has wasted everyones time because she refused to withdraw a lie. She knows she wasn't correct, she has seen my evidence showing she was incorrect and attacks me. This isn't about a simple ., but about her false statement and misleading opening. If there was a convention stating the . should not be used as she said in her opening then she needed to prove it. She said all BletheringScot 21:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you cannot tell the difference between a lie and a difference of opinion then you are indeed heading for a block. You have not provided evidence of anything other than that you and BHG made a mistake or disagrees with you. Now argue the merits of the dispute without resorting to attacking editors or you will be blocked for personal attacks.
It seems that BHG has admitted that the numbers were not as they thought, so why not just move on and stop with the assumptions of bad faith. HighInBC 21:20, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@HighInBC: Show me where she has admitted or apologised to me. You are frankly wrong and i told you very clearly block me if you can prove I'm attacking her. She lied by virtue of making a false statement, a statement she hasn't withdrawn. Sorry but tell me how saying as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football clubs isn't a lie. Tell me how that statement is a difference of opinion. In the thread I clearly provided evidence that she was wrong. She attacked me first, not the other way around. She has not redacted her lie, or made any attempt to apologise for it. Can you advise where in the NPA policy it states that calling an editor a liar is a personal attack, when it is proven the person is lying. We are only here because Brown Haired Girl handled herself very badly. Had she as soon as I provided evidence of her false statement, redacted and admitted she made a mistake then fine. She choose to ignore my evidence and pile it on. Im embarrassed for her and thats a fact. Please note any block against me must show to me that calling a user a liar when proven she lied is a personal attack or we will be heading to arbcom. BletheringScot 21:36, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In addition I simply do not care about a dot. This isn't the issue with her move request, the issue was she opened her move request saying to remove the dot from "St." per wikipedia naming convention. When I asked her to show me where the convention was she said The convention does not seem to be documented, but it is longstanding practice on.wp not to use the dot in "St.", as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football club. Essentially it doesn't exist. As she said as reflected in names of other football clubs, I wanted to verify this info so I checked all other football clubs in Scotland and found no such demonstration existed either. When i advised she had mislead she said I was just showing signs of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This was antagonising behaviour, because at this point all id said was her initial statements were misleading and they clearly were. I then provided her with the evidence she asked for. She kept saying I hadn't provided evidence, when i provided the link to back up my point. She said i was like an advocate conducting a cross-examination. The fact is all I did was question why here statements were misleading a move request. She should no signs of withdrawing statement or clarifying why she mislead us. The fact is it was lies or at best deliberately misleading. Not something you would except from a sysop. Also its not entirely unclear whether a dot can be considered to be covered by the common name policy. BletheringScot 21:44, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even presuming the factual claims you made are accurate, being mistaken about our conventions when you make comments doesn't automatically make someone a liar or imply they delibrately mislead. Refusing to admit you were mistaken (again presuming your claims are accurate) is problematic, but again doesn't mean someone is a liar or delibrately mislead. I don't see where you've presented any evidence that BrownHairedGirl knew she was wrong when she made the statement which is implied by your claim she lied or delibrately mislead. And frankly calling someone a liar or saying they delibrately mislead without significant evidence is a far more serious thing than being wrong about our naming conventions. So unless you do have evidence it's far more important that you withdraw your claim then she withdraw her claim about our naming conventions (presuming she is wrong). P.S. I had a brief look at the discussion so I'll add that WP:COMMONNAME is one of our naming conventions, one of the most basics ones. As to whether it should apply to the dot in an abbreviation, I would say yes, but I don't think that's a discussion suitable for ANI anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to leave this for another admin to decide. I don't like it when people dare me to block them, and I don't really feel like playing this game with you right now. HighInBC 22:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't daring you to do anything. You said you were going to block me, if i believed she was lying. I said go ahead if you feel you have enough evidence it is a personal attack and can prove that BrownHairedGirl did not lie or try and mislead. I think its obvious at best she was misleading and at worst she lied. I won't apologise for that when the evidence is clear to see.Blethering Scot 23:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How about you just make your argument based on the facts of the dispute instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks. If you think the fact claimed by BHG is wrong then make an argument to disprove it and gain consensus, there is no need to assume bad motives. Comment on the content not the contributor. This is Wikipedia 101. You can believe whatever you want, we are only concerned with what you do. HighInBC 23:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I am happy to discuss the substance of the issue, including BS's concerns over my assertions ... but only with an editor who behaves in a civil manner. I have no problem with some discussion of a disagreement, but I will not engage in substantive discussion with an editor who assumes bad faith and repeatedly engages with personal attacks.

I would not stay in any workspace or other meeting in meatspace with people who conduct themselves like that, and per WP:CIVIL, Wikipedia editors are entitled to discuss disagreements and allegations of error without being repeatedly called called "liar", and without facing an editor determined to bully them out of a discussion. Wikipedia's decision-making process is consensus-forming discussion, but consensus-forming cannot happen in the context of such aggression. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would point out to User:BrownHairedGirl that the conversation was civil until she said I was displaying signs of Wikipedia:I just don't like it, all because i asked her to clarify the policy she was referring to & challenged her ascertain that the policy was reflected in the names of other Scottish football clubs. She also accused me of being like a barrister because i was wanting her to clarify her comments. None of this displays a civil attitude towards me. She specifically asked me to provide evidence that there are no other clubs in the SPFL called Saint that use the displayed name without the dot. As provided in the RM St. Johnstone F.C. and St. Mirren F.C. are the only clubs named saint in the SPFL. Click on the league links on the spfl tables on the official website to see this for yourself. Her failure to acknowledge this and her belligerent style make me fully believe she intended to mislead therefore i have to come to the conclusion she lied. At the same time i looked at Category:Football clubs in Scotland. As you will see there are only a further 4 with the name Saint. These are St Anthony's F.C., St Roch's F.C., St. Andrews United F.C. and St. Cuthbert Wanderers F.C.. That means of 6 Scottish football clubs named Saint, only 2 use the naming style without the dot. That means clearly there is no deliberate reflection in the names of other Scottish football clubs. It is my believe that BrownHairedGirl is showing evidence of behaviour not befitting an admin, and because i called her out on it brought this here.Blethering Scot 18:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I assume BHG is referring to this, clear articulation in the MoS. I really can't fathom why therefore, this has all blown up over a full stop. Fenix down (talk) 10:54, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Nil Einne Im fully aware of the common name policy and one I agree with, however i think its debatable whether it applies in this case. However BrownHairedGirl pulled it out as an after thought when called out on her misleading facts. Im glad u acknowledge that her behaviour is problematic if proven. I have very clearly provided evidence that she was wrong, yet she fails to acknowledge that fact. She know full well there is no reflection in other Scottish football articles. Blethering Scot 18:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Fenix down it has not blown up over a dot. It has blown up over BrownHairedGirl failure to admit she provided misleading evidence to a WP:RM. This is problematic behaviour not befitting an admin.Blethering Scot 18
55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Being mistaken is not the same as lying. People have disagreements on Wikipedia and that doesn't make them liars. It was inappropriate to use that term - and multiple times yet - even if her information was incorrect, and even if she didn't explicitly acknowledge that. After all, part of the reason to have the discussion is to gain a consensus as to what should be done, including verifying what the facts are, if they are in dispute. Rlendog (talk) 19:10, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I dont believe that to be the case. As far as i can see she wasn't mistaken, she misled. Im not going to withdraw that view in anyway. She is still belligerently ignoring that facts and refuses to acknowledge despite evidence being presented to her. As for my repeatedly repeating my view, given she started the attacks on me, again I won't apologise for that. She is an admin and I am not, therefore she should be setting an example. She has not set an example by accusing me of being a barrister for asking her to clarify her statements and i mean ask her, she has not set an example by not acknowledging the facts. Frankly this is not about a dot but the fact she won't admit she was wrong and tried to hide it by pushing me.BletheringScot 19:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This should never of been brought to AN, had she apologised and said sorry I was wrong, redacted her false statements, then i would of apologised to her. The fact it was brought here without any acknowledgement on the RM or here makes me think whats the point.Blethering Scot 19:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I replied[236]
have provided evidence of common usage, and of usage by the club itself. That is what matters in Wikipedia policy.
You have offered no evidence in support of any other names, and so as noted, your comments are just WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
You now seem to be trying to find flaws in my comments as if you were an advocate conducting a cross-examination, rather than a fellow en.wp editor trying to reach a consensus. Your latest statement, with its accusation of "lies" is a direct personal attack and assumption of bad faith, so I will not discuss any further with you. If you persist with such a personalised approach, I will consider seeking sanctions.
From then on, BS just kept on repeating "liar", and repeating the impossibilist demand that I somehow prove that a generic principle applies to a particular aspect of a name. The hostile advocate-in-a-courtoom-bullying-a-witness approach makes it impossible to have a dialogue about any concerns over evidence and assertions. For the record, one of my assertions about other usage on Wikipedia turns out on checking to be a little overstated, but given the evidence of common usage I think it is immaterial.
There is a fairly simple way to handle assertions that appear incorrect. Simply say what you have found, and ask the other to explain the difference. If we had had that discussion, then I might for example have pointed out to BS that part of the difference was because I had referred to "football clubs" whereas BS was talking about the much more limited set of SPFL (premier league) clubs. But such misunderstandings don't get unravelled when an editor immediately assumes bad faith and responds to every reply by yelling "liar", and by abusing edit summaries to make that attack.
The edit summary "Stop replying if you truly want it to be enough" is a clear statement of intent to drive me away from the discussion. This isn't consensus-forming; it's a blatant attempt to shout me down and not only drive me away, but deter any other editors from joining in. It's WP:BATTLEFIELD behaviour. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl Sorry, no i referred to every Scottish football club with a Wikipedia article. There are only 6. Actually no you said Enough, then said [237] enough again. My reply was to say if you are truly saying enough to me then stop replying to my posts. Because i have to reply to yours. You are still trying to misinterpret facts.BletheringScot 19:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BS, please read WP:AGF. Disagreement over facts, or difference of interpretation or understanding, or even an error, can be due to an mistake or to a difference of view or to nuances of language. It is not, as you claim yet again, "trying to misinterpret facts" -- that is an assumption of and faith, which the core of the problem with your approach.
That phrase "trying to misinterpret facts" is just a rewording of your cruder yelling of "liar". I don't now how many editors need to warn you stop doing this assumption of bad faith before you will listen. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:06, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl Well you are. You made out above it was me that started the enough's, when in fact it was you and my enough was in response to yours, which was an attempt to close down discussion. You made out above I didn't provide evidence of all Scottish clubs, when i did both SPFL and the other 4 clubs outside. The issue is here you are showing no sign of acknowledging anything, therefore it is very difficult to assume good faith. As another user said above thats evidence of problematic behaviour. Why won't you admit you made errors, the more you insist you didn't the more it looks like it was deliberate. Seriously thats all you had to do, two days ago. I would of apologised at that point. The more this drags on the less i see to apologise for.BletheringScot 20:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BS, I give up. You are quite entitled to say that you believe I am wrong. You ae quite entitled to point out how you think I am wrong. You are not entitled to call me a liar or to assume that I acted in bad faith.
I am quite happy to discuss a disagreement, but not with an aggressive, abusive editor who persists in assuming bad faith. If that is your assumption, then any discussion is pointless. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:42, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl Where in this recent conversation am i being abusive or aggressive. Im not swearing at you, I'm not shouting at you, I'm simply asking you to acknowledge your errors. Nobody can blame me for not assuming good faith when you never with me (and its clear you didn't) and it does simply look problematic when two days later you won't admit the mistakes. You also above did provide a misleading version of events, that missed some very key points so i highlighted that your version of events did not tally up. You keep denying them despite evidence to the contrary. Saying I'm being abusive certainly isn't the case. Im being perfectly polite during this conversation and have highlighted the inaccuracies that you raise. Im sorry you feel how you feel, but not sorry about anything else. I cannot fathom why you won't just be honest. Its bizarre that you are continuing to deny this, as genuine mistakes are usually owned up to. There is no point continuing this with you as you are showing no signs of ceasing your insistence that you are totally innocent, when you are not. This situation has been escalated by yourself for no good reason.BletheringScot 22:10, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway enough is enough. It is clear you aren't going to admit your errors and as such I cannot apologise. And as i would rather improve the encyclopaedia by improving content, not concentrating on trivial matters like this, I think we should both depart this conversation.Blethering Scot 22:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Repairperson needed because of undiscussed page moves and simultaneous cut-and-paste-moves involving multiple articles

Calerusnak has made a total mess of a number of articles by first moving them around and then making cut-and-paste moves. The currently affected article names are, as of latest count, Mercedes-Benz ML, Mercedes-Benz ML-Class, Mercedes-Benz GL, Mercedes-Benz GL-Class, Mercedes-Benz GLE and Mercedes-Benz GLE-Class. I know the standard procedure is to tag with {{histmerge}}, but this also involves (AFAIK at least) undiscussed moves, so the best fix would be to move everything back to where it was when Calerusnak started the circus... Thomas.W talk 18:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have fixed everything up, except I need an admin to move Mercedes-Benz ML back to Mercedes-Benz M-Class. OSX (talkcontributions) 22:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@OSX: The page histories still need to be fixed since a number of edits have been made after the cut-and-paste-moves were made. Thomas.W talk 22:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I guess if you see this as necessary. All Calerusnak did was change a few small things that got reverted anyway. He did not actually improve the page. But if an admin wants to history merge, I have no objection. OSX (talkcontributions) 00:46, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What a mess - thanks for straightening it out. Mr.choppers 22:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
ML > M-Class fixed. It might need to be moved to GLE-class is that is now the official name but that needs to be done through a Requested Move. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:51, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Legal threats?

Are this (the last paragraph) and this legal threats? —teb728 t c 00:09, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can't see the first diff (deleted) but yeah, the second one is, even though it's uploaded to Commons rather than Wikipedia. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Related to this, someone at Commons probably wants to take a look at the uploads of Commons:User:Nmkkato. I'm pretty sure they all unquestionably fall out of scope. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And they've been cromulently blocked. - The BushrangerOne ping only 00:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Some of those uploads have highly sensitive personal info in them. clpo13(talk) 00:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Their commons uploads have been mass deleted. Nil Einne (talk) 01:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have invited them to explain their concerns without making threats[238], it is not really clear to me what they are complaining about. I am about 70% sure that they got something taken down as a copy vio and they are misunderstanding our licensing requirements with an accusation of copyright infringement. HighInBC 00:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would normally agree with you, but I think this individual probably doesn't belong on Wikipedia even with a retraction of the legal threat. It looks like the whole purpose of her presence here is to push information about a lawsuit against BMI. And honestly, that little of an analysis is charitable. But from the look of the documents and how she's conducting herself elsewhere, I feel pretty confident a retraction won't happen anyway. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was less concerned about a retraction and more concerns about figuring out what they were concerned about per WP:DOLT. HighInBC 01:19, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It appears it's their taking "your content has been removed as copyvio" as "Wikipedia is commiting copyright violations on me". And/or a a failure to grasp Wikipedia's licensing requirements w.r.t. content that has been posted (and thus copyrighted) by themselves elsewhere. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the legal threat in this case appears to be an ongoing lawsuit against wikipedia and wikimedia. At least that's what the upload and comment [239] seems to imply. If that's really the case, then retraction of the threat requires the lawsuit is resolved (whether it's dismissed perhaps because they drop it or ask for it to be dismissed or it goes to court and achieves some outcome). Nil Einne (talk) 01:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Campus sexual assault RfC

Hello, there is currently an active RfC going on at the Talk:Campus sexual assault page regarding whether or not to use in-text attribution for a statement. When the RfC was first opened, User:Flyer22 Reborn (who supports not using attribution) phrased the question as two opposing areas of comment: 'Don't use' and 'Use'. I requested on her talk page that this be changed to a simpler, one-question format. She did not change it, so I noted my objections on the RfC page and left my comment only in the latter section. Another user, User:FoCuSandLeArN, also noted on Flyer22's talk page, "It is my opinion the RfC !voting space was indeed very poorly organised. Having to support and oppose several points in the same RfC is indeed very impractical, which is why I only !voted once." and left a comment only in the latter section. As the RfC progressed, it collected a total of 7 comments in the latter section. Today, five days after the discussion was opened and the objections were noted, Flyer22 has added a new note to the latter (and only latter) section which reads "Note: There is no obligation to vote twice. Feel free to ignore voting in this section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)". As the time to compromise has passed and this note is suggesting that an active area of the conversation be ignored (either entirely or for new votes, depending on the interpretation of the wording) I move that the note be struck from the conversation, at least as it pertains to suggesting that participants ignore any part of the discussion at this point. Given that the note may impact an active RfC discussion, I have attempted to comment it out pending the resolution of this issue. Please advise the best course to proceed. Scoundr3l (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the discussion's transpiring nicely. There are points where both parties are willing to compromise, and it appears there are attempts at drafting modified content per the results of the ongoing conversation. I think we can ignore this little bump in the road and interpret the consensus accordingly. I assume Flyer22 was just trying to correct that incongruity. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 22:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Scoundr3l brought the matter here because I made it clear on his talk page that I would seek to get him blocked if he kept messing with my comments like he did here and here, which is a WP:Talk violation. There was nothing inappropriate about the note I left in the RfC, which was to clarify that there is no obligation for editors to vote twice in that RfC; that editors can vote once or twice in that RfC is made clear by the way editors have been voting in it thus far. It's also made clear by this discussion on my talk page. FoCuSandLeArN seemed to question if he had to vote twice, and so I left the aforementioned note in the RfC that there is no obligation to do so, just like there is no obligation to vote twice if a RfC has a Support and Oppose heading. The only reason things have escalated this far is because of Scoundr3l's need to debate every little thing, and because Scoundr3l and I bickered with each other at the talk page; see this link for what I mean. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: I began writing this before Flyer22 left a comment on my talk page. My motivations were not swayed by idle warnings on my talk page but by a desire to remove confusing statements like "Feel free to ignore voting in this section" from a section which is currently being used for comment. Scoundr3l (talk) 22:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Trolling over there now coming over here. Seems like a discussion is getting somewhere over there, though it's pretty tl;dr. The statement is so WP:POPE obvious that it is clear we have the "men's rights" trolls just there to cause drama, but looks like the actual content issue might be getting resolved anyway. Montanabw(talk) 22:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I clarified my note with this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:16, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's just keep cool heads and let the issue move on. No need to let petty grievances take over. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 00:19, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly the RFC looks to be a real mess, but I don't think there's any way to solve that now. However I do agree it's a little weird to only have the comment for one of the options in the middle. Even if it's felt it wasn't needed for the first, I don't see why it wasn't mentioned for the third option. I think it was particularly bad with the original wording.

It would have been best if the lack of need to !vote could have been clarified at the beginning (not that I'm sure why it needs clarification, people participating in RFCs should know we aren't voting so there's no obligating to to vote in any specific maner). But the beginning of that RFC is such a mess that I have no idea, and no desire to learn what it's about and I suspect many potential participants are just going to completely ignore the beginning of the RFC.

Anyway, to avoid dispute, I've included a modified version of Flyer's comment under the other two proposals that people seem to be !voting on. The new wording from Flyer is better, but there's still no reason why it only belongs in the middle option.

P.S. Personally I find it hard to call commenting out (or better simply removing the additional poor wording) included in the beginning of the middle option only, a violation of WP:TALK. People should remember that RFCs are supposed to be worded and structured neutrally. And if they're modifying an ongoing RFC, they need to take great care not to violate that principle. If their actions violate it or appear to, undoing their actions until the issue is resolved is a fair call.

Nil Einne (talk) 11:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I remembered Flyer 22's name from a dispute over another RFC. At the time writing above, I couldn't recall if they were the one who's actions I had mostly criticised. But a quick check has now confirmed they were. I do not believe my above comments were significantly influenced by any memories I had of the previous experience with Flyer 22, but I obviously can never say for sure. I have no particular desire to involve myself in either RFC. Nil Einne (talk) 12:45, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nil Einne, I'm sure you remember it was me you mostly (rather only) criticized in that previous discussion, despite the clear-cut personal attacks, etc. from two administrators directed toward me, including this mess; that discussion is now at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive909#Administrator User:Jehochman's conduct at Talk:Jennifer Lawrence. As seen there and now in this discussion, you and I have different ideas of what a WP:Talk violation is. It is also quite clear that we never agree. And I don't see how your edits to the RfC, which is going fine except for the occasional bickering, helped. The note I left was placed in the second section because people will see the first section first. And the note for the third section, which you added, was not needed.Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do my best not to hold grudges and so don't remember the name of precisely who did what unless I have a reason to (like they are an editor I feel I need to keep an eye on) or they come up often enough that I do remember, or I happen to remember for some other reason. I considered and consider your actions there wrong, but they weren't so wrong that I had any reason to keep an eye on you, nor was I particularly likely to encounter you again in my own editing. So as I said in my second reply, I did not remember you were the one who I criticised when I left my first reply (which includes the edits to the article talk page).

I did remember your name, but I did not think you were the one who I criticised until I checked. When I thought about it a bit more, I began to wonder if you were the one based partly on your actions here and since I did have a vague memory I felt your behaviour somewhere was unresonable. I didn't actually look for the discussion, instead I looked at the RFC and was easily able to figure out from what it was in fact you.

(Now that I've looked back at the discussion and read your final comment which I never read before, my concerns combined with my concerns about what happened here are even stronger. It sounds like you didn't and I'm guessing still don't understand how RFCs are intended to work and why they are intended to be a community discussion, not simple one random person's ideas which may include including stuff you don't yourself support but believe the community wants or may want to consider. Or making a proposal which isn't your preferred version and not including your preferred version in the interest of compromise based on previous discussion. Whatever else may or may not have gone on, I'll freely admit I didn't look that closely. What I did see was that it was quite clear you committed a major error and where unable to see you had done so and that this error was quite serious since it risked damaging any RFCs you were involved in. So maybe I will remember you now, although why you would want that, I'm not sure.)

Anyway, I hope you are willing to WP:AGF that I was and am telling the truth when I say I did not remember you were the one when originally replying.

I obviously disagree that the notes I left are unhelpful. Firstly as I said above, your original wording was seriously wrong in an RFC, something which you haven't really acknowledged. (You've improved your wording, but haven't said anything to suggest you understand it was a major problem and people were right to be seriously concerned about it.)

Your second wording was better, still while it may be more likely people will read the first section there's never any guarantee, so telling people they don't have to !vote in only one section is out of place. I'll admit though I made a mistake in my original wording. I simply copied yours without thinking too much about it but your wording still has the flaw that it's only discouraging !voting in one section. (There's no more reason why people who've !voted in the second section need to !vote in the first section.) I've now improved my wording [240].

Unfortunately this means the middle section still has the poorer wording. However from all you've said and done so far, I suspect if I delete your wording and replace it with my signed wording you'll complain. And the problem isn't significant enough that I'm going to bother to try.

And in case it's not clear, it does matter, since even with the improved wording, leaving the wording in only the middle section leaves the impression it's some sort of secondary proposal that doesn't matter. The first and second proposal may be mutually contradictory so can't both be implemented, however that doesn't mean people have to !vote on the third proposal, they don't have to as they never do.

It's of course possible for someone to !vote support for both the first and second proposal. Often they may give some indication of which they prefer. But on the other hand some people may think it doesn't matter so they will support both equally. Since this is an RFC aimed at achieving consensus and not a vote, whoever closes the discussion should take their comments on board based on strength of argument and grounding in our policies and guidelines as they should always do regardless of who !vote what & where. Not that many real votes with multiple questions require you to vote in both for your vote to be valid anyway.

As I said before, the far better thing would be for such notes to be left at beginning of the RFC. Except the beginning is such a royal mess, it's fairly likely that very few people will actually see the comment. Mind you, the reason why this often doesn't come up is that normally if there are only two possible mutually contradictory options, it's better to simply include one option. While it's still important to get the wording right in such cases to ensure you aren't biasing in favour of any specific option, it makes things clearer and avoids such needless confusion. (Of course including both options seperately is no better when you are going to say "There is no obligation to vote twice. Feel free to ignore voting in this section" in only the second section.

Anyway as with the previous discussion which I now sadly remember much more than I ever wanted to, I've spent way too much time here so won't likely be commenting further. If editors wish to reword or even remove my notes in that RFC, feel free to replace or delete them as you believe is fair and there is consensus for. Don't however take this as carte blanche to do anything which may bias the RFC. If you've had problems before in that direction, I suggest seeking consensus first before making any changes to avoid that issue.

P.S. Whatever is achieved in that RFC, that shouldn't be taken as a sign it was handled well. Any RFC where when someone visits it, the first thing they are greeted with is a very, very long (significantly longer than this very very long comment of mine) discussion between editors, rather than a neutrally worded summation of the issues and main points is a mess. While RFCs growing organically out of existing discussions is a good thing, this doesn't mean people should ignore the basic tenets of making a good RFC when starting them. (And this is ignoring the confusing and seemingly unnecessary inclusion of the only two possible mutually contradictory options which effectively lead to this ANI in the first place when the comment was added.)

And while achieving a result if that happens is good, RFCs are generally best when they have maximum participation and it's fairly likely people have and will visit that RFC, see the very long beginning and go "um okay, whatever, bye". I suspect most of those who do choose to participate are going to jump straight to the !vote parts. The trouble there is while they will hopefully get an idea of what the issues are from the !vote discussion, they may not particularly those who visited early on because there was no such simple introduction and summation. Therefore they may not be well informed and may have trouble coming up with their best policy and guideline based argument. I suspect only a tiny number of new participants are going to read any significant part of the initial discussion.

P.P.S. It looks to me like the personal attacks you referred to include "obnoxious" and being basically referred to as a troll. Personally, while calling someone obnoxious can be uncivil, it's also the sort of thing which can be a harsh but fair description of behaviour. (I'm not saying it was fair in that case, simply that it can be.) And funnily enough, when searching that ANI, I few threads down I found someone else was called obnoxious in ANI itself. Calling somone a troll is more serious since it's in many ways an even more serious accusation of bad faith than vandal so should IMO be reserved for clear cut trolls. However it's complicated and the OP of this thread was effectively accused of trolling and being a troll in this very thread. Despite your apparent strong concerns about calling some a troll being a PA, it looks like I was the first to raise the issue. Which to be clear, I don't think is something worth worrying about.

Nil Einne (talk) 10:51, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nil Einne, you sated, "I do my best not to hold grudges and so don't remember the name of precisely who did what unless I have a reason to (like they are an editor I feel I need to keep an eye on) or they come up often enough that I do remember, or I happen to remember for some other reason. I considered and consider your actions there wrong, but they weren't so wrong that I had any reason to keep an eye on you, nor was I particularly likely to encounter you again in my own editing. So as I said in my second reply, I did not remember you were the one who I criticised when I left my first reply (which includes the edits to the article talk page)."
I stated that we never agree, and that's true. I have a very good memory, as a number of editors at this site know. Any time I am involved with a WP:ANI thread and you happen to weigh in on it, I have come away with the conclusion that you strongly dislike me. So you are one of the administrators editors I have pegged as knowing not to come to for help. When I see the type of comments you made in that previous WP:ANI thread focusing on me the way you did with the mess I was put through and downplaying bullying tactics by two administrators, I am left taking your comments regarding me with a grain of salt. Plus, there was this edit by you soon after that matter, which I consider you having felt the need to keep an eye on me, as though I was the main disruptive one. After all, you had never edited that article before, and one of the administrators I was in dispute with made it seem like extra eyes were going to be on me to keep me in line. I received emails from well-respected editors stating that the main administrator in that RfC dispute had been wrong to make a fuss over the headings, especially since the headings represented his views, and that he was completely out of line for his incivility. I received even more emails from well-respected editors stating that this administrator (yeah the one Clpo13 had to revert on that gross personal attack) was over the top and should have been admonished. Yes, Nil Einne that, was a personal attack, whether you want to simply consider it incivility or not, as if that would make it better. These editors all agree that the Jennifer Lawrence RfC was formatted fine. And, indeed, other than the bickering between me and those two administrators, it was a successful RfC and will be closing soon. I know how to format RfCs (I've been doing it since about 2007, either then or a little afterward, when I started editing this site), though I occasionally misjudge what is the best formatting. Just because you wouldn't have formatted the Jennifer Lawrence RfC that way...it doesn't mean that it wasn't the right format. From what I see, it was the best format for that type of dispute. As for the current RfC formatting, that's clearly not my best work. And I still feel that your edits there were not needed. But either way, this simply marks another case where we have disagreed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose my memory is not always as good as I think it is. Looking at User talk:Nil Einne/Archive 3 (at two sections I posted to your talk page), I see we were on better terms before, and that I perhaps used to think fondly of you. At some point, that changed. In Wikipedia years, 2009 was a lifetime ago. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above 'troll' comment certainly appears to be a PA. Uncivil at best. But it also appears to simply be a pattern with that user's commenting style. I don't pay it much mind as I imagine most users don't. If there are any sincere concerns over trolling, the original discussion is still on display. Scoundr3l (talk) 01:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"being ineducable"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Note: This section was originally misplaced by me at WP:AN. I have moved the full discussion as far as 05:59, 28 January 2016 here. -- MIESIANIACAL 06:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC))[reply]

Mabelina (talk · contribs) has a turbulent history here. For quite some time, many editors have been attempting to help this individual understand Wikipedia policy and editing practice, mostly specific to WP:MOS and WP:OVERLINK, but also sometimes WP:CONSENSUS. While I believe I've seen some improvements since my first interaction with the editor some time ago at Order of Saint John (chartered 1888), s/he continues to make the same grammatical mistakes, ignore consensus, and edit war, despite the aforementioned help.

Recently, there was dispute over the way Mabelina was editing the biographies of British peers. A lengthy discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Use of Rt Hon and PC for UK Privy Counsellors and Peers reached a sensible consensus. Yet, Mabelina still insists his/her way is the right way, often edit warring: [241], [242], [243]. A glance at Mabelina's talk page will show how a number of editors (including myself) are becoming very frustrated with the behaviour. Though, it also shows a stubborn and troubling refusal on Mabelina's part to accept concepts like consensus (see User talk:Mabelina#Disruptive editing from 19:59, 27 January 2016 on). Confounding matters even more, pointing out the problems to him/her is deemed by them to be undeserved, at best, threats or abuse, at worst.

Mabelina's block log is illustrative of the difficulty s/he has been having adhering to Wkikipedia rules and guidelines. One block by RHaworth (talk · contribs) was imposed due to Mabelina "being ineducable". That's a succinct way to sum up the issue with Mabelina and, unfortunately, I don't think it's improved enough.

Another block should temporarily stop Mabelina's edit warring. But, there would still remain the big question of: what's going to be an effective way to see Mabelina become a cooperative editor in the long term? -- MIESIANIACAL 00:04, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I admit that this did ping on to my radar yesterday and I quickly became overwhelmed when I tried to tease apart the various issues when reviewing Mabelina's talk page and associated edits. There is a significant gap between the involved editor's expectations (e.g. collaboration through clear discussions) and Mabelina's often over-the-top responses. I completely understand why frustrations have bubbled over but I'm not sure I have the stamina to take another crack at it.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 00:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say that I agree with everything User:Miesianiacal says. I too have seen some improvements by Mabelina but there is still too much POV-pushing it seems. I spent a lot of time engaging with Mabelina back in November 2015 regarding BRD and MOS specifically, but also wikipedia conduct more generally. Unfortunately, even after returning from their block of 13th Nov they still seem to have made little progress and I have spent even more time over the last few days attempting to deal with issues around their latest area of dispute, namely styles of peers. I think the whole issue can be summed up by this post Special:Diff/700431092/700639180 in which Mabelina was presented with evidence that the style they do not wish to see used has been used by RS, to which Mabelina responded "so perhaps it could be a typo". Other evidence along the same lines has been presented to Mabelina but ignored, the only response ever being along the lines of "I am right" (I paraphrase) - Special:Diff/702010181/702011565. Mabelina seems unwilling to respect a consensus when that goes against their view of how articles should be. It is getting very frustrating, and like User:Miesianiacal I am at a loss to know how to deal with this in the long term. Clearly previous blocks have dealt with the problems in the short term, and they have had some limited longer-term improvement, but I don't see that they have had the intended impact since much of the editing style that caused the blocks is still persisting. Frinton100 (talk) 00:31, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My edits just now have been deleted - edit conflict - try again in 20 minutes. Thanks M Mabelina (talk) 00:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Frinton100, I should also have pointed to your own talk page for more evidence of what I said above. -- MIESIANIACAL 00:39, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Another edit just deleted by virtue of edit conflict...
Look back in your talk page archive and you will find where I gave you some advice about edit conflicts. Frinton100 (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have but it doesn't work on this page seemingly. Anyway, a moment svp: ineducable is to be "considered incapable of being educated, especially (formerly) as a result of mental disability". Is this really how low an opinion you have of me, or is it that you, NH-H, Afterwriting, etc just simply don't like my contributions (because of the reasons you have set down time after time)? Qv: User talk:MabelinaMabelina (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
PS. seeWikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies[reply]
I've been following this from the sidelines for some time now. Would it be possible to have Mabelina pick a quiet topic, either in her user space or draft space, and improve it to DYK/GA/FA to demonstrate her competence? Apologies if she has already shown proficiency with article development and improvement. Viriditas (talk) 00:54, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Viriditas, I don't think that would really help as Mabelina is capable of producing good articles, and has created many articles of their own which have been perfectly reasonable pages. The issue is more about what happens when they come up against a difference of opinion with other editors, and how they go about trying to resolve this. Frinton100 (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Frinton100: this doesn't quite concur with your agreeing with everything Miesianiacal has to say. It is hopefully more than apparent that I dislike such public discord, but if this is now the forum to state one's case so be it (I personally do not think it worthy of ANI). Apart from disparaging me, I am not entirely sure what Miesianiacal's purpose is here? I should have thought that bringing up the article about the Order of Saint John is in no way to my detriment (apart from the arguments), which is what I think Miesianiacal is trying to make out. Close inspection of that article's edit history serves only by way of illustration to show my edits to be respected (although sadly with much intervening conflict from Miesianiacal).
The issue indeed has much more to do with what User:Frinton100 states above as "what happens when they come up against a difference of opinion with other editors, and how they go about trying to resolve this" - a perfectly reasonable general enquiry - however, not as stated relating necessarily to me. Anyway, let's suppose it were meant to refer to Mabelina, it should then be pointed out that I have set down substantive reasons as to why Wiki MOS should be clarified accordingly (with regard to Style/Titles - particularly re. Infoboxes), given that the present situation is totally unclear and far from being satisfactory. I should wish to help further with minimum hassle & so that Wiki provides concise and accurate information throughout its pages. Much obliged to hear as to how to resolve this. M Mabelina (talk) 01:57, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is incomprehensible how you can be unsure of why I mentioned Order of Saint John (chartered 1888); I was blatantly clear: it's where I had my first interaction with you.
But, now that you've drawn more attention to it, one can see in the edit history you were edit warring with Anglicanus (talk · contribs) back in October 2015 over the same kind of edits you've been making in the last few days. Compare this with this. Even back in October people were citing how many times you'd been told about incorrect capitalisation. -- MIESIANIACAL 04:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And now you're doing it again at House of Lords. -- MIESIANIACAL 04:37, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Mabelina is a male in his mid-40s. I have to agree with the assessment of ineducable, and, in spite of years of WP:ROPE, unable to effectively, accurately, and collaboratively edit on Wikipedia. I believe a CIR farewell is long overdue; he's somehow managed to squeak by and disrupt things so randomly and haphazardly that he hasn't been dragged to ANI lately and given the final boot. But I think it's time, as enough time has been wasted on him. Softlavender (talk) 04:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Would a strongly enforced 1R restriction (maybe per 48 or 72 hours) be of any help? To at least drastically reduce his edit warring on multiple pages? -- MIESIANIACAL 04:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtful. We don't have the manpower to babysit one single editor, and frankly, Mabelina does need babysitting. That's why it's time for a CIR boot. By the way, I'm going to ping RHaworth. Softlavender (talk) 05:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As a member of WP:RETENTION, I don't want to see any editor getting the boot, who hasn't vandalized articles or socked. If a 1RR hasn't been tried, then give it a go - if it's required. Also, If the editor-in-question is having competency problems? then getting him/her a qualified mentor, would be the route to take. GoodDay (talk) 05:05, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that shows a misunderstanding of WP:CIR. The whole point of CIR is that the person cannot be rehabilitated. People have tried for years to get through to Mabelina, to teach him, to mentor him. He appears unable to comprehend the simplest and most patient or blatant instructions. It just isn't working (he's been blocked 9 times in 8 months), and it's time to show him the door, because the community cannot waste any more time on him. Pinging Bbb23, Anglicanus. -- Softlavender (talk) 05:36, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Well, he does appear on pages on my watchlist fairly frequently. It also seems there's others who regularly interact with him. If a 1 or 0RR restriction were imposed (maybe with a pre-agreed, automatic block time of, say, 6 months), I, for one, could volunteer to report here any breach by Mabelina that I witness. Perhaps Frinton100, Afterwriting, N-HH, and/or Anglicanus would do the same?
Whether or not mentoring succeeds is another (doubtful) matter. -- MIESIANIACAL 05:46, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused now - are you, Miesianiacal, determining/considering my future on Wiki? You wanted to boot me off earlier??
I don't know what you're talking about. -- MIESIANIACAL 05:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well you should do since you launched this farce... M Mabelina (talk) 05:53, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're not doing yourself any favours.
Given I wrote "temporarily" and "see Mabelina become a cooperative editor in the long term", it's baffling how you concluded I want to "boot you off". You should be more concerned with those who really do want to see you gone from Wikipedia forever. I don't wholly agree with them right now, but, I wouldn't invest a lot of effort in contesting the idea. -- MIESIANIACAL 05:55, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
another edit conflict - despite the learned abilities of Frinton100 - these haven't worked for me - ie. my defence has been deleted again...
& it might be worth pointing out at this juncture, that the only times I get edit conflict - YOU CAN ALWAYS DISPUTE ANYTHING I SAY - is when I try to link another editor's name before saving...
To sum up, I note that the usual players are lining up to orchestrate a vote of no confidence - is that what it has come to? M Mabelina (talk) 05:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Mabelina: You do know that when you run into an edit conflict your post is not just deleted right? The information you wrote is shown on the bottom of the page. Everything you wrote can just be highlighted, copied, and pasted back into the editing window. All you have to do is scroll down. --Majora (talk) 05:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or copy your post before hitting 'Save page'. -- MIESIANIACAL 05:49, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Miesianiacal: the term ineducable refers to mental disability. Unless you publicly disclaim this assertion with respect to me throughout Wikipedia, all rights are reserved. M Mabelina (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Howdy, Mabelina. I monitored your posts here, at your talkpage & others talkpages. Just an observation, but I think you've pinged Miesianiacal enough times, already. You don't have to ping him anymore. GoodDay (talk) 07:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@LilaTretikov: please be advised that Wikipedia is hereby put on notice for publicly using the term "ineducable" in reference to User:Mabelina. M Mabelina (talk) 07:22, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Mabelina, are you threatening legal action? Please clarify. GoodDay (talk) 07:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm afraid it sounds like a classic case of exhausting the community's patience. The time, energy and good will of constructive editors is Wikipedia's most precious resource, and we can't allow it to be squandered in this way. Softlavenders point about babysitting a single editor and years of WP:ROPE is well taken. (The part I don't understand is why Softlavender adduces in a carping tone that Mabelina is a male in his mid-40s — so what? Middle-aged men are allowed to edit Wikipedia. Under female names, too, no problem.) In view of what has transpired here, on user talkpages, and in the block log (=nine blocks by six different admins in less than a year), I have blocked indefinitely. Bishonen talk 08:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC).[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Backlog at UAA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's a serious backlog at Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention for any admins who can find a few minutes to stop by and help out. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 22:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AN, I believe, would be a more appropriate place for these kinds of notices :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:09, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
That was very unhelpful and rude, @Oshwah:. Please reconsider how you help other editors on this noticeboard as preemptively closing legitimate requests without doing anything meaningful to address them doesn't help anyone. ElKevbo (talk) 18:03, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Materialscientist is threatening 71.3.140.221

Please block Materialscientist for that. 71.3.140.236 (talk) 23:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]