위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1050
Wikipedia:사용자 템플릿피터볼드윈
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 무한정 차단됨.다크나이트2149 03:50, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
템플릿피터발드윈 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
나는 오늘 이 사용자가 SubGenii(SubGenius 교회의 구성원들)의 목록을 만드는 것을 보았다. 이 목록을 보면 몇몇 주목할 만한 사람들이 소싱 없이 조직의 일원이라는 것을 알 수 있다.그 주장들은 검증에 실패한다.그들의 사용자 페이지를 보면, 저작권 위반, 부적절한 범주, 부적절하게 BLP 기사 출처, AFD 태그 제거 등 다양한 경고 및 기타 편집 문제를 볼 수 있다.그들의 토크 페이지 편집은, 음, 이런 식이었습니다.나는 이 시점에서 어떤 형태의 블록이 필요하다고 생각한다.power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:10, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 이 실에 '젠장!'로 콘텐츠를 대체했다"고 고속 편집해 반응을 보인 것으로 보인다.그래서 그들은 차단될 것이다.power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:54, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 계정을 무기한으로 차단했다.Mz7 (대화) 05:00, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- f-u는 아동 기사[1][2]의 요약 편집을 revdd로 해야 하는가?Rgrds. --Bison X (대화) 06:00, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 논평) 아동기사가 되는 것은 그것과 무관해야 하지만 이미 재평가된 것으로 보인다. -- 3월 (대화) 06:19, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나였어.라고 보았다.
순전히 파괴적인 자료로서 프로젝트와 관련성
이 거의없거나 아무런
가치가 없지만, 7월 3월은 기사의 성격이 내 결정에 영향을 미칠 수 있도록 허용하는 정책적 근거는 없다는 것이 옳다.어떤 관리자라도 내가 너무 과대평가되었다고 느끼면 내 레브델을 자유롭게 풀어줄 수 있을 것이다.GirthSummit (blether) 07:51, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나였어.라고 보았다.
- (비관리자 논평) 아동기사가 되는 것은 그것과 무관해야 하지만 이미 재평가된 것으로 보인다. -- 3월 (대화) 06:19, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- f-u는 아동 기사[1][2]의 요약 편집을 revdd로 해야 하는가?Rgrds. --Bison X (대화) 06:00, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 계정을 무기한으로 차단했다.Mz7 (대화) 05:00, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
인신공격(위협)
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 지속적인 학대로 인해 이반벡터에 의해 6개월 동안 사이트 전체에 걸쳐 차단됨.적용 가능한 revdel이 수행되었다.다크나이트2149 03:47, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
올해 10월 10일, 반달의 '사랑의 의미'(앨범) 편집 내용을 되돌린 후, 이 익명의 사용자들로부터 메시지를 받았고, 그 후, 내 토크 페이지에서 파괴적인 메시지를 발견했다.첫 번째 전쟁 이후 전쟁이 되었다.그들이 한 메시지 중 하나는 그들이 나를 죽이거나 사냥할 것이라고 말했다.나는 그 일이 일어나기 전에 몇 가지 규칙을 내 토크 페이지에 두었다.그것은 되돌렸고, 수정본들은 오슈와에 의해 공공 기록보관소에서 제거된다.
Also, they made some disruptive messages to the talk pages of Minorax and Nick Moyes, and the user, 86.187.172.249, vandalized the article Isko Moreno, claimed that I masturbated on him daily, but in real life, it did not happen because its illegal.---Rdp060707 (Talk/My fight against the devil/contributions) 12:29, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- 이 사용자의 IP 범위(86.187.168.0/21(블록 범위 · 블록 로그(글로벌) · WHOIS(부분)))는 오용에 가득 차 있으며, 이미 여러 기사에서 파블록되어 있다.나는 6개월 동안 사이트 전체를 차단했다.네가 언급했듯이, 공격적 개정은 이미 삭제되었다.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 12:49, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
WP의 지속적인 중단:BLP 재클린 조사
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 운영 중단으로 인해 무기한 차단됨.IP도 차단했다.다크나이트2149 03:52, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
크리스탈3003(토크 · 기여)은 피험자의 결혼에 장기간 문제가 있는 것으로 보이며, [3]; [4]; [5]; [6]; [7]; [8]; [9]; [10]; [12]; [13]; [14]; [15]; [16]; [17].이 [18]에 대한 계정이 일시적으로 차단되었다.명칭 변경의 원천은 [19]; [20]; [21]; [22]이다.공식적으로, 나는 이름 변경에 크게 투자하지는 않았지만, 그것은 타블로이드 신문들에 의해 충실하게 다뤄졌고, 그것을 제거하려는 결심은 파괴적으로 보인다.관리자만 편집할 수 있는 차단된 계정 86.4.92.177(대화 · 기여)과 연관성이 있는지도 궁금하다.고마워, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (대화) 14:55, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 크리스탈3003을 그 페이지 편집에서 제외시켰다.편집 전쟁을 위해 1주 블록을 추가하려고 했는데 그렇게 하면 그 블록이 무효가 될 것 같다.WP에서 이를 정리해야 할 필요:AN. Mjroot (대화) 16:59, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 고마워, Mjroots.이것은 더 이상의 탈피다.블록 목록에 86.4.62.141(토크 · 기여)을 추가하고 차단된 IP 86.4.92.177(토크 · 기여), rev/delete WP:BLP 위반 및 기사 보호.감사합니다 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (대화) 2020년 10월 21일 19:24 (UTC)[
성가신 세대 Z 페이지 편집 전쟁
| 상황 검토 후, OP는 파괴적인 편집을 위해 차단되었다.~스왑~06:39, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
아그소는 지난 며칠 동안 Z세대의 시작일을 1995년으로 하자는 이야기로 Generation 페이지의 "날짜 분노" 정보를 지속적으로 삭제해 왔다.이들은 몇 달 전 처음 페이지에 올려졌던 정보를 계속 삭제하면서 미가 추가(페이지 내력은 사실이 아니라는 것을 보여준다)하고 편향된 시각으로 자신의 페이지를 계속 파기하는 사람이 현실일 때 '편집전쟁을 시작한다'고 비난해왔다.그리고 나서 그들은 계속해서 평판이 좋은 정보원이 "미국 싱크탱크고 신뢰할 수 없다"고 말하고 나서 이 상황에서 계속해서 피해자처럼 행동한다.--Zillennial (대화) 19:41, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[하라
- (비관리자 논평)@Zillennial:여기서 편집할 때 나타나는 정책 및 통지에 따라 해당 사용자에게 해당 사용자에게 해당 대화 페이지에 알리십시오.나는 이번에 너를 위해 그렇게 했다.미리 편집 워링 게시판에 가본 적이 있는가?(이렇게 네 개의 키보드 테일을 입력하여 토크 페이지에 게시물에 서명하는 것을 기억하십시오: .). —텐류 🐲 (💬 • 📝 ) 17:08, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 감사합니다, -- Zillennial (토크) 19:41, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)
세마츠
| 막혔어.~스왑~06:43, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
Sematz(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그) 사용자는 WP와 관련하여 여러 가지 파괴적 편집([23] [24] [25] [26] [27])을 하였다.충분한 설명 없이 NPOV 및 컨텐츠 제거사용자는 자신의 토크 페이지 [28]에서 응답이나 행동 변화 없이 이 문제에 대해 나와 다른 사용자로부터 여러 번 경고를 받았다.안톤사뮤엘 (대화) 18:13, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
두 명의 다른 뉴질랜드 관리자로부터 받은 미개하고 도움이 되지 않는 입력
| NAC: OP 틸로스도메인이 무기한 차단됨.로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 01:21, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 처음에 그 페이지에 공공 기물을 파손하는 것을 보여주는 외부 출처에서 토바_오브리엔 페이지에 문제가 있다는 것을 알게 되었다.반달리즘은 분명하지 않은 방식으로 쓰여졌지만, 확실히 WP:NPOV에 반하는 내용이었다.편파적인 의견을 대체할 만한 것이 없었기 때문에, 나는 그것을 무언가로 대체했다.조금 더 중립적인그리고 나서 토크 페이지에 해당 분야에 경험이 더 많은 사람이 WP에 해당 섹션을 다시 작성해야 한다는 내용의 섹션을 작성했다.NPOV 방식 또는 전체 문장을 삭제하는 것을 고려하십시오.
그 뒤를 이어 서로 다른 두 행정관이 토론에 뛰어들었다.갓피움과 슈웨데66.이 행정가들은 선의로 관여하기보다는 단순히 나를 공격하고 내가 제기한 문제를 무시했다.나는 이 관리자들이 이 문제에 대해 이해충돌을 가지고 있고 COI 때문에 이 문제를 다루고 싶지 않으며, 대신 나를 공격함으로써 이 문제에서 벗어나는 것을 선택하고 있다고 제안한다.이 행정가들은 COI 때문에 편향된 진술이 계속 유지되기를 바라며, 나를 공격함으로써 그것에 대한 논의를 중단시키고 있다.만약 이러한 관리자들이 어떤 문제에 선의로 관여할 수 없다면, 그들은 그 문제에 완전히 관여하지 말아야 한다.— Telosdomain(대화 • 기여) 23:59, 2020년 10월 22일(UTC)에 의해 추가된 사전 서명되지 않은 의견[
- 틸로스도메인 반달리즘은 기사에서 제대로 고쳐졌고, 기사의 보호를 받기 전에 고쳐졌다.너의 편집은 대체된 것만큼 부적절했다.두 행정관은 당신에게 그것을 지적했고, 그것에 대해 당신이 적대적인 반응을 보였다.나는 그 문제에 대해 더 이상 할 일이 없다고 생각한다.샤즈질드(토크) 00:15, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 두 행정관은 불필요한 적대적인 태도로 나에게 응답했고, 나는 그것에 대해 현물로 대응했다.만약 그들이 적대감을 다룰 수 없다면 그들은 애초에 나에게 적대적인 방식으로 언급해서는 안 된다.이 기사에는 WP를 위반하는 버전이 여전히 포함되어 있다.NPOV와 관리자들은 그것을 인식하거나 심지어 논의하기를 거부한다.그들이 하고 있는 모든 것은 관련 없는 문제를 거론함으로써 문제를 회피하는 것이다.틸로스도메인 (대화) 00:27, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 틸로스도메인, NPOV 문제는 보이지 않지만 주제에 대해서는 잘 모르겠다.대화 중:Tova O'Brien, 편집자들이 문제를 볼 수 있도록 (적절한 경우 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 통해) 보이는 문제를 설명하십시오.샤즈질드(talk) 00:31, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 내가 여기서 ANI에서 제기하는 문제는 페이지에 NPOV 콘텐츠의 존재에 관한 것이 아니다.그것은 다른 편집자들이 토론하고 결정하는 것이다.문제는 내가 WP의 잠재력이 있다고 제안하려고 했을 때 다음과 같다.NPOV, 두 행정관은 적대적인 방법으로 나를 공격했다.내가 한 일은 공공 기물 파손을 다른 기물 파손으로 대체한 것뿐이었다.나는 그 기사가 조금 더 중립적인 것으로 수정되기 전에 그 문제를 토크 페이지에 제기했다.내가 말했듯이, 나의 적대적인 대응은 꺼내지 마라.만약 행정관들이 내 적대적 공격을 감당할 수 없다면, 그들은 그들 자신의 적대적 공격을 시작하지 말았어야 했다.틸로스도메인 (대화) 00:37, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이 토론을 두 편집자에게 알렸다.샤즈질드(토크) 00:38, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 틸로스도메인, NPOV 문제는 보이지 않지만 주제에 대해서는 잘 모르겠다.대화 중:Tova O'Brien, 편집자들이 문제를 볼 수 있도록 (적절한 경우 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 통해) 보이는 문제를 설명하십시오.샤즈질드(talk) 00:31, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 두 행정관은 불필요한 적대적인 태도로 나에게 응답했고, 나는 그것에 대해 현물로 대응했다.만약 그들이 적대감을 다룰 수 없다면 그들은 애초에 나에게 적대적인 방식으로 언급해서는 안 된다.이 기사에는 WP를 위반하는 버전이 여전히 포함되어 있다.NPOV와 관리자들은 그것을 인식하거나 심지어 논의하기를 거부한다.그들이 하고 있는 모든 것은 관련 없는 문제를 거론함으로써 문제를 회피하는 것이다.틸로스도메인 (대화) 00:27, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 다른 사람들이 말했듯이, 텔로스도메인의 편집은 노골적인 반달리즘이었다.이곳의 어조를 보면 생산적인 기여자가 되는 데는 별로 관심이 없는 것 같다.당신이 원하는 것을 변경하지 않는다고 다른 편집자들을 공격하고 파괴하는 것은 이 장소가 어떻게 작동하는지가 아니다.그리고 내가 너의 코멘트에서
개인적
으로 너를공격
한다고 말하는 것은 항상 나쁜 것이다.power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:52, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[ - 나는 여기서 그들의 역사를 3분 동안 보았고 그들을 막았다. --Floquenbeam (대화) 00:54, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 나는 TP토론을 종결하고 모자를 썼다.네이트 • (대화) 01:56, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
빌리 에일리쉬의 음반 목록
| 잘못된 장소 | |
| 이곳은 콘텐츠 분쟁을 해결할 올바른 장소가 아니다.기사토크 페이지에서 시작해 콘텐츠(공헌자는 아님)만 토론하고, 토론이 합의에 이르지 못할 경우 분쟁해결 프로세스를 활용한다. --Jayron32 15:10, 2020년 10월 23일(UTC)[ | |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자:Ellis.o22는 빌리 에일리쉬의 음반 목록으로 쓸모없는 정보를 되돌리는 것을 멈추지 않을 것이다.그는 비록 많은 출처가 그렇긴 하지만, [29]와 [30]은 2016년에 상업적으로 출시되지 않았다고 말한다.그는 또한 "Everything I Wanted"와 "Bitches Breaked Hearts"와 같은 곡들이 재발행의 싱글이라고 생각한다.그것은 사실이 아니다.음악 기사를 편집하는 많은 편집자들은 싱글이 재발행된 앨범이나 EP의 싱글이 아니라고 동의한다.The Utimate Boss (talk) 03:04, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 대화 페이지 토론, 위키프로젝트 알림, 그리고/또는 WP:RFCs를 통해 의견 일치를 찾으려고 노력했는가? 만약 그렇지 않다면, 이것은 아직 진정되지 않은 콘텐츠 분쟁처럼 느껴진다.세르게크로스73msg me 03:10, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @The Ultimate Boss: 문제의 글에 두 번 반전을 한 직후에 이것을 올렸다는 것은 흥미롭다.그들의 편집 요약은
우스꽝스러웠다.
계속 되돌릴
것이다.ST47 (대화) 03:21, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @The Ultimate Boss: 문제의 글에 두 번 반전을 한 직후에 이것을 올렸다는 것은 흥미롭다.그들의 편집 요약은
- @ST47:, 그게 무슨 상관이야?이 사용자는 사실이 아닌 음반 목록 정보로의 회귀를 멈추지 않을 것이다.The Utimate Boss (talk) 03:24, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
-
@ST47:@최종 보스: 좋은 소식은 당신이 이야기를 시작했다는 것이다.나쁜 소식은 당신이 여기에 [31][32]를 올린 후에야 그것을 했다는 것이다.그 전에, 토크 페이지의 마지막 편집은 4개월 전이었다.콘텐츠 문제에 대한 ANI의 불만이 큰 문제가 되는 경향이 있다.ANI는 어느 쪽도 대화 페이지에서 논의하려 하지 않은 내용 문제에 대해 크게 불평하고 있다.닐 아인(토크) 04:03, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- (충돌 편집)@최종 보스:맙소사, 나 혼이 났어.그래서 우리가 여기서 얻은 것은 의사소통에 실패하는 겁니다.앞서 말한 바와 같이 ANI는 WP:콘텐츠 분쟁을 처리하지 않는다.ANI에서 불평하는 데 노력을 덜 쓰고, 의견 일치와 상호 이해를 도모하기 위한 노력에서 대화 페이지 상의 토론 및 관련 토론에 더 많은 노력을 기울여야 한다.위에서 언급한 "어리석은" 편집 요약본은 연대적 태도를 보여주는 것이 아니다. --Deepfriedokra (대화) 04:18, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
매드맨스1019에 대한 공동체 금지
사용자:필터 편집 때문에 여기에 올릴 수 없는 이름으로 더 흔하게 알려진 MadMans1019는 지난 7년 동안 위키피디아를 끝이 보이지 않고 끊임없이 파괴하며, 욕설적인 사용자 이름 계정을 만들고 일반적으로 웹사이트 전체에서 가장 큰 규모의 LTA 중 하나이다.이 사람이 수년 전에 금지되지 않은 방법은 나를 훨씬 넘어선다. 나는 Madmans1019/User에 대한 공식 커뮤니티 사이트 금지법을 제안한다.엔위키에 에스재이.드제니 슈찰리치 (대화) 00:17, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 논평)Djenni Shchalich, 그 계정들은 지금 몇 년째 활동이 없다.이것을 WP:SPI에 상정하였는가?—텐류우 🐲 ( ( • 📝 ) 00:58, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 필요 없어, 제발.이것은 물론, 해당 사용자가 약간의 자기 홍보를 시도하고 있는 것이다. --zzuz 03:13, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
계정의 첫 번째 편집 내용은 계정을 삭스푸펫으로 태그하는 것이다.
Djenni Shchalich(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자·블록 로그)는 작년에 계정을 만들었지만, 편집에 들어갔을 뿐, 계정을 양말퍼펫(예: sockpuppet)으로 태그하고 있다.이제 막 편집을 시작한 편집자에게서는 이례적인 행동이다.언어학자talk 111 00:29, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그래, 왜냐하면 이건 아주 욕설적인 장기 양말 달인이기 때문이지. 내가 거래처를 알려주고 싶어.드제니 슈찰리치 (대화) 00:31, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- Djenni Shchalich, 당신은 혼자서 양말을 태그하지 말아야 한다; 만약 차단 관리자나 체크 유저가 태그하지 않기로 결정했다면, 그것은 대개 타당한 이유 때문이다.블레이럽스 00:53, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
두 명의 오디오 엔지니어-프로듀서에 대한 외부 괴롭힘 조정
다양한 IP와 새로운 사용자들이 BLP의 Kenny Beats와 음반 제작자 겸 오디오 엔지니어인 Alex Tumay를 공격하고 있다.그 괴롭힘은 소셜 미디어의 조정에서 비롯되었을 것이다.두 바이오스는 모두 이틀 동안 보호받았지만, 나에게는 안타깝게도 불충분해 보인다.새로운 사용자로부터 두 개의 BLP를 영구적으로 보호할 수 있을까?아래는 괴롭힘 IP와 새로운 사용자들의 목록이다.브링크스터넷 (대화) 15:55, 2020년 10월 19일 (UTC)[
- KNNY808! (토크+ · 태그 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 차단 · 사용자 차단 · 로그 · CA · CheckUser (log) · 조사 · 쿠위키)
- Prior4x(토크+ · 태그 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그 · CA(로그) · CheckUser · 조사 · 쿠위키)
- Camige1210(토크+
- 크루즈11+(토크 · 태그 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자·블록 로그 · CA·체크유저(로그) · 조사 · 쿠위키)
- 브링크스터넷, 보호는 3개월이니까 서두르지 마드미즈에게 연장해 달라고 할 수 있어?다른 사람이 하기에는 약간 바퀴와 같은 느낌이다.가이(도움말! - 오타?) 18:56, 2020년 10월 19일 (UTC)[
- 어쩌면 3개월은 트롤들이 재미로 다른 곳을 찾게 만들지도 모른다.그렇지 않으면 1월에 돌아올 것이다.Binksternet (대화) 18:58, 2020년 10월 19일 (UTC)[
- JzG - 왜 그것이 바퀴싸움이 되는가? :-) 행정관이 다른 행정관이 선동한 행정조치가 그 조치(또는 유사한 이유로)에 동의하지 않기 때문에 뒤집히거나 완전히 해제할 때 다른 행정관(또는 이전 행정관)은 그 조치에 동의하지 않기 때문에 완전히 뒤바뀌었던 원래의 행정조치에 다시 착수할 때 휠싸움이 발생한다.역전예: 사용자를 차단하는 경우:트롤. 또 다른 관리자가 블록을 제거하면서 "불필요하다"고 말했다.만약 나(또는 다른 관련 행정관)가 들어가서 "아니오!"라고 말하며 원래의 블록을 다시 집어넣는다면, 나는 바퀴싸움이 될 것이다. 페이지 보호, 차단, 또는 합법적인 토론 후에 또는 나중에 증거가 제시된 후에 행동을 수정하는 것은 바퀴싸움을 의미하지 않는다.물론, 의심스러울 때는, 확실히 하기 위해서 항상 관리자와 먼저 상의해라.바퀴 싸움은 편집 전쟁과 같다; 그렇게 만드는 것은 (토론 대신에) 오락가락하는 행정 행동의 반복이다.~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 02:23, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 미발송 문서:블레이저코어 핵폭발?이 IP들이 자꾸 삽입하려고 하는 용어다.해당 페이지의 편집자는 다음과 같다.
- 그리고 그들은 다른 곳에서는 편집하지 않았다.그리고
- 그 활동에도 관여하는 것 같다(토크:케니 비트).DMACKs (대화) 02:35, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 초안을 삭제한 경우:공격 페이지로서 블레이저코어.조누니크 (대화) 02:46, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 조누니크 - 잘했어.~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 02:50, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 사용자 Kazowworld와 ImNotZake가 서로 몇 시간 안에만 생성되었다는 것이 우습다....~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 02:52, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 초안을 삭제한 경우:공격 페이지로서 블레이저코어.조누니크 (대화) 02:46, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 이제 오디오 엔지니어를 내 감시 목록에 올려놨어나 자신도 오디오 엔지니어지만 공장에서 오디오 장비를 디자인하는 부류이지 사용하는 부류가 아니다. --Guy Macon (토크) 05:39, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
재클린 조사, 리듀렉스
| (비관리자 폐쇄) Crystal3003은 무기한 차단, 페이지는 반보호, 한 달 동안.다크나이트2149 09:12, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
내 이전 보고서에서처럼, 나는 페이지를 보호해 줄 것을 요청하고 있다. 최신 WP:BLP 위반은 리브/삭제되며, IP를 회피하는 블록은 다시 차단되며, IP 범위와 최근 이 기사 편집만 차단된 Crystal3003(토크 · 기여) 사이의 연결을 확인하기 위해 사용자 확인을 실시한다.감사합니다 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (대화) 14:02, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- IP가 차단되어 rev-deld RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:07, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 한 달 동안 그 기사를 반비례했다.Mjroot (대화) 16:44, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 둘 다 고마워이것을 감시하기 위한 좋은 아이디어는 역사에 근거하여 재발할 가능성이 있다.2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (대화) 19:49, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 한 달 동안 그 기사를 반비례했다.Mjroot (대화) 16:44, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
보호된 페이지 편집 관련 질문
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 다른 언어 위키피디아 간의 관리자 권한은 구별된다.그것과는 별개로 이곳에서는 아무런 사건도 없는 것으로 보인다.다크나이트2149 09:02, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
공공 기물 파손을 방지하기 위해 보호되는 페이지를 다른 언어의 관리자가 편집할 수 있는가?샤지드샤리프2001 (대화) 14:29, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 안녕 샤지드, 각 언어 위키피디아의 관리자 역할은 독립적이지 않기 때문에 스페인어 위키피디아는 영어에 대한 권한이 없을 것이고 그 반대의 경우도 마찬가지일 것이다.만약 당신이 제안하고 싶은 편집이 있다면 나는 그 기사의 토크 페이지로 가서 그것을 할 것이다.RickinBaltimore (대화) 14:44, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
애슬란X89
| (비관리자 폐쇄) WP로 평가:여기에 없고 그에 따라 외설적이다.다크나이트2149 06:46, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
살아있는 사람들과 위키피디아에 대한 백과사전 반달리즘을 만들기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니라, 소셜 미디어 계정을 만들려는 파괴적인 편집을 분명히 촉진한다.Mr.User200 (대화)19:41, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 이제 장애에는 한 블록을 회피하는 위협이 포함된다[33].그래, WP:NOTHER. 2601:188:180:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (대화) 19:59, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 모두 처리하고 차단했다.RickinBaltimore (대화) 20:02, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
전쟁 편집
| (관리자 이외의 폐쇄) Kinu에 의한 72시간 블록, WP에 의한:부메랑. 다크나이트2149 03:43, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자:그레이조이는 프리라이더 커뮤니티(프리라이더 HD 위키)에서 누구와도 상의 없이 내가 했던 변화를 되돌리며 나와 싸워왔다.나는 그가 눈치채기를 희망하면서 그의 변화를 되돌리고 있다.잘못했습니다.— 미적분-dev (대화 • 기여) 06:33, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[에 의해 추가된 사전 서명되지 않은 논평
미적분-dev(토크 · 기여)가 칸보2(토크 · 기여)와 병행하여 같은 이슈에 대해 같은 편집 전쟁에 참가했던 양말계정이라는 것은 상당히 명백하다.86.164.169.96 (대화) 12:00, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 그런데 왜 그 양말 계정은 마스터가 외설적인데 72시간만 버틸 수 있지?이것은 마스터가 내일 그의 블록을 피할 수 있게 해준다.86.140.67.152 (대화) 15:32, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
바이든-우크라이나 음모론 및 대화 페이지 편집
Talk에서 불필요한 편집 요청이 많은 것으로 확인됨:바이든-우크라이나 음모론은 반복적인 주장이 더 많이 게재되고 있으며 WP의 적용을 둘러싼 논쟁을 편집하고 있기 때문이다.NOTFORMUM.그리고 또한 나는 1RR이 부과되어야 한다는 증거인 바이든-우크라이나 음모론에 대한 편집 전쟁이 더 많이 있다는 것을 본다.관리자들은 이에 대해 논쟁을 벌일 수 있는가? 왜냐하면, 그 주요 기사와 그것의 토크 페이지에는 편집 전쟁이 점점 더 많아지고 있기 때문에, 본 기사는 논쟁적인 이슈들로 인해 1RR도 없다. 180.243.208.98 (토크) 23:22, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 왜 당신이 WP:RFP에서 나의 토론 페이지를 반보호하는 근거의 일부를 복사했는지 잘 모르겠다.나는 본 기사는 현재 괜찮다고 생각하며, 필요하다면 보호나 페이지 제한을 높일 수 있을 정도로 충분히 검토가 되어 있다.ST47 (대화) 23:26, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 지난 며칠 동안 그 페이지와 토크 페이지에서 활동해왔고 나는 ST47의 의견에 동의한다.페이지 자체에 대한 추가적인 제한이 필요하지 않아 보인다는 것에 동의한다.그것은 이미 ECP 아래에 있고 그것은 효과가 있는 것 같다.ECP 적용 후 1RR로 막을 수 있었던 반전이 있는지조차 모르겠다.고릴라워페어(토크) 23:36, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그러나 나는 이 기사가 1RR 이하가 아니기 때문에 그것을 억제하기에는 충분하지 않다고 믿는다.나는 ECP가 필요하다는 것에 동의한다. 그러나 나에게 1RRR은 이 기사에 필요한 것 같다. 왜냐하면 그 내용이 얼마나 논쟁적인 내용인지 그리고 나는 또한 WP를 호출한다.ARBEE는 주제가 동유럽 국가와 관련이 있다고 보기 때문에. 180.243.208.98 (대화) 23:42, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 반전에 문제가 없었는데 왜 1RR이 필요한가?아니면 기사토크 페이지에 1RR을 적용해야 한다는 말씀이세요?고릴라워페어 (대화) 23:44, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 어떤 파괴적인 행동?좀 더 구체적으로 설명하거나 차이점을 제시해 주시겠습니까?고마워 RandomGnome (토크) 01:06, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 그러나 나는 이 기사가 1RR 이하가 아니기 때문에 그것을 억제하기에는 충분하지 않다고 믿는다.나는 ECP가 필요하다는 것에 동의한다. 그러나 나에게 1RRR은 이 기사에 필요한 것 같다. 왜냐하면 그 내용이 얼마나 논쟁적인 내용인지 그리고 나는 또한 WP를 호출한다.ARBEE는 주제가 동유럽 국가와 관련이 있다고 보기 때문에. 180.243.208.98 (대화) 23:42, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 지난 며칠 동안 그 페이지와 토크 페이지에서 활동해왔고 나는 ST47의 의견에 동의한다.페이지 자체에 대한 추가적인 제한이 필요하지 않아 보인다는 것에 동의한다.그것은 이미 ECP 아래에 있고 그것은 효과가 있는 것 같다.ECP 적용 후 1RR로 막을 수 있었던 반전이 있는지조차 모르겠다.고릴라워페어(토크) 23:36, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 바이든-우크라이나 간 음모론(토크 히스토리를 편집해 삭제 링크 감시 로그 뷰)은 ECP 산하에 있으며, 그 토크 페이지는 반자동화돼 있다.Hunter Biden(토크 히스토리 보호 대화 기록 삭제 링크 감시 로그 보기)은 완전한 보호를 받으며 해당 대화 페이지가 반자동으로 보호된다.모든 페이지는 게시된 FAQ를 읽지 못했거나 사전 토론을 하지 못했음을 나타내는 반복 요청의 대상이 되며, 필터 히트나 심각한 문제를 나타내는 게시물이 있다(예를 들어 익명의 "부모 집단"이 피쟈게이트를 어떻게든 유효하게 하고, 이것이 "러시아의 조작"과는 달리 현재 확립된 사실이라는 것을 홍보하는 하나의 필터 히트).더 많은 관리자들이 왜 주류 보도가 뉴욕 포스트보다 더 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 여겨지는가에 대한 끝없는 토론보다는 내용 질문에 더 집중하기 위해 그 페이지를 보고 잠재적으로 큐레이팅하는 것은 전혀 나쁘지 않을 것이다.가이 (도움말! - 오타?) 07:26, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- JzG, 내 생각에, 이러한 보호는 1RR 이하도 아닌데도 불구하고 이것이 얼마나 논란이 많은 주제인지에 대해 최소한 두 가지 모두에 대해 반비례 보호가 되어야 할 필요가 있다.그러나 나로서는 바이든에 대한 주제가 우크라이나와 같은 동유럽 국가와의 음모론이기 때문에 바이든-우크라이나 기사에 대해 동유럽과 발칸의 추가 제재를 발동하는 것이 나에게는 더욱 필요하다. 180.243.208.98 (대화) 09:53, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
IP 문제...
특히 1999년 이전 PBS 관련 기사에 관한 사항.그들은 이해할 수 없을 정도로 PBS를 PBS 키즈로, 어린이 텔레비전 워크샵을 참깨 워크샵으로 바꾼다.다음은 이러한 IP가 히트한 기사의 몇 가지 예:
- 1968년 텔레비전 방송
- 1969년 텔레비전 방송
- 1983년 텔레비전 방송
- 1992년 미국 텔레비전 방송
- 1995년 미국 텔레비전 방송
- 조안 간즈 쿠니
- 셰릴 리치
- 세서미 스트리트의 크리스마스 이브
- 세서미 스트리트 선물:그 새를 따라가기
그리고 그 목록은 계속된다.이 모든 물품들은 이러한 IP 파괴자들로부터 장기간 보호될 필요가 있다.
아, 그리고 여기 문제가 된 반달들이 있다.
- 98.186.217.23 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 필터 로그 · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)
- 98.186.219.166 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 필터 로그 · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)
DawgDeputy (talk) 23:47, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[하라
- 나는 98.186.219.166을 사흘 동안 막았다.다른 IP는 최근 활성화되지 않고 있다.문제가 다시 발생하면 나에게 알려줘.조누니크 (대화) 06:52, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 그 정도면 충분하겠지만 DawgDeputy, 만약 그들이 블록이 만료된 후에 나타나거나 그들이 다른 IP 주소에 나타난다면, 우리가 범위 블록을 계산할 수 있도록 알려진 모든 IP 주소를 보고하는 새로운 보고서를 제출하십시오.현재 범위는 98.186.216.0/22(블록 범위 · 블록 로그(글로벌) · WHOIS(부분적))이지만, 만약 당신이 접하는 추가 IP 주소의 크기가 더 커야 한다면 우리는 그것을 결정할 수 있을 것이다.고마워 ~스왈~06:58, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 동일한 남용이 2600:800:3100:d33:f8f7:8227:511:51e4, 2600:8800:3100:8800:3100:d33:f079:8bb9:6c0d:be1c, 98.186.248.243의 추가 IP에서 발생했으며, 마지막 IP는 블록에서 다루어질 수 있다.페이지 보호가 적절할 것이다. --Nat Gertler (대화) 13:08, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 그 글을 올린 지 한 시간 만에 2600:8800:3100:d33:41d0:c16a:6cc5:b7cd가 튀어나와 같은 일을 했다.RPP에서 이 페이지들을 보호하기 위한 거절을 이해할 수 없다. --Nat Gertler (대화) 14:16, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 편집 필터에 적합한 후보가 될 수 있을까? -- Luk 21:30, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 나는 단지 최근 며칠 동안 같은 방식으로 편집된 위의 목록에 있는 기사들을 보호했을 뿐이다.또 다른 관리자는 2020년 11월 22일까지 2600:800:3100:d33::/64를 차단했고, 가장 최근의 98.186.216.0/22의 IP는 2020년 10월 25일까지 나에 의해 차단되었다.내가 여기 그리고 WP에서 썼듯이:PROT, 추가 문제 있으면 알려줘.토크에는 이 문제에 대한 간략한 설명이 있어야 한다.세서미 스트리트 선물: 주제를 모르는 구경꾼이 IP 편집이 지장을 주는 것을 볼 수 있는 새로운 것을 팔로우하십시오.조누니크 (대화) 00:26, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 고마워. --Nat Gertler (대화) 02:18, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
위키리디터19920의 비활성과 배틀그라운드 행동
| Wikieditor19920은 사용자에 의해 경고됨:비쇼넨; 이 문제를 종결짓는 것은 이 논쟁에 관여하지 않은 편집자들의 이념적 기반 저격으로 되돌아왔다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 12시 5분, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 여기서 어떤 진지한 행동을 요구하는 것이 아니다, 단지 자발적이지 않은 편집자가 위키디터19920에게 예의범절과 전쟁터 행동에 관여하지 않는 것에 대해 상기시켜주는 것이다.
이 논쟁적인 기사의 토크 페이지 Wikeditor19920은 심각하게 WP:RfC에서 프로세스를 흐릿하게 만들었다.
그리고 그 토크 페이지 전반에 걸쳐 그들의 논평은 미개하다.아무 일도 일어나지 않은 곳에서 편집 전쟁이 일어났다는 비난, WP의 편집자들을 거듭 고발했다.스톤월링(STONWALING)은 다른 편집자들을 편향적이라고 비난하며 RfC에서 편집자 투표를 "관련 투표"라고 선언하고 최근 토론에서조차 페이지를 훑어본 그들의 예의상 부족을 보여주며 협업을 매우 긴장하고 어렵게 만들 것이다.그들은 반복적으로 그것을 진정시키라는 요청을 받았으나 소용이 없었다.나는 자유분방하고 경험이 많은 편집자로부터의 예의에 관한 한 마디가 이 담론의 비도덕성을 진정시키는 데 도움이 되기를 바란다.
그들의 토크 페이지에서 볼 수 있듯이, 그들은 이 기사에서 다른 편집자들과 문제를 겪고 있다.
고마워 바콘드럼 (토크) 20:42, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 불필요한 편집상의 의견 불일치의 확대다.나는 몇 번의 콘텐츠 논쟁 끝에 ANI[34][35][36]에 오고 싶어 안절부절 못하고 있는 @Bacondrum에게 완전히 정중하게 대했다.나는 이 페이지의 특정 내용 불일치가 모든 면에서 가열되었다고 생각한다.이 페이지는 정치적 논란이 많은 인물에 관한 것이며, BLP와 WP는 다음과 같이 말했다.포룸 발언(솔직히 배콘드럼 출신 포함)이 관심사였다.Bacondrum은, 무엇보다도, 내가 그들을 편향이라고 비난했다는 것을 암시한다.토크 페이지에서 그들의 첫 번째 논평은 기본적으로 그 주제를
해킹 작가에 대한 정의
라고 부르는 비난이었다.
- Bacondrum이 ANI 위협(그리고 현재 실제 ANI 스레드)과의 이러한 의견 불일치를 확대하려 했고 맥락에서 선별된 발언을 취하려 했다는 것은 유감스러운 일이다.나는 실제로 베이컨이 그 페이지에 최근 제안한 몇 가지 제안에 동의했고, 그들이 제안된 것보다 더 나아가 사실의 부정확성과 의심스러운 중립성의 언어를 소개했을 때 실망했다.이런 것들은 해싱할 수 있지만, 바콘드럼은 ANI에 가져가기보다는 토크 페이지에서 유효한 비판에 대응하는 것을 고려해야 한다.위키디터19920 (대화) 21:12, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 불필요한 편집상의 의견 불일치의 확대다.나는 몇 번의 콘텐츠 논쟁 끝에 ANI[34][35][36]에 오고 싶어 안절부절 못하고 있는 @Bacondrum에게 완전히 정중하게 대했다.나는 이 페이지의 특정 내용 불일치가 모든 면에서 가열되었다고 생각한다.이 페이지는 정치적 논란이 많은 인물에 관한 것이며, BLP와 WP는 다음과 같이 말했다.포룸 발언(솔직히 배콘드럼 출신 포함)이 관심사였다.Bacondrum은, 무엇보다도, 내가 그들을 편향이라고 비난했다는 것을 암시한다.토크 페이지에서 그들의 첫 번째 논평은 기본적으로 그 주제를
- RfC, Wikieditor19920이 분명히 번지르르한 전술을 사용하고 있다는 것을 읽어 내려보면, 그들은 아마도 최악의 범죄자일 것이지만, 그들만이 유일한 것은 아니다.나는 RfC가 어떤 유용한 내용을 잃지 않고 그 RfC에서 기고가 제거될 수 있는 편집자가 적어도 4명일 수 있다고 생각한다.그러나 위키디터19920의 기여는 가장 전투적인 언어를 포함하고 있다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 22:23, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이 페이지에 있는 모든 사람들의 기여가 "유용한 내용을 잃어버리지 않고" 삭제될 수 있다는 것을 제안하지 않았다. 그리고 당신이 내 것에 대해 그렇게 말하는 것은 꽤 모욕적이다.그 반대는 사실이다.이 페이지의 문제는 콘텐츠 논의가 반복적으로 WP로 넘어간다는 점이다.그 주제에 대한 포럼과 같은 주장들.배콘드럼이 그 문제에 기여한 유일한 사람은 아니지만,
그가 바로 해킹 작가에 대한
정의가 내가 언급하고 있는 것의 훌륭한 예라고 할 수 있다.위키디터19920 (대화) 22:41, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[- 그래, 정확히 내 요점은 RfC에 대한 많은 논쟁들이 유용한 내용의 손실 없이 제거될 수 있다는 것이었다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 07:38, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이 페이지에 있는 모든 사람들의 기여가 "유용한 내용을 잃어버리지 않고" 삭제될 수 있다는 것을 제안하지 않았다. 그리고 당신이 내 것에 대해 그렇게 말하는 것은 꽤 모욕적이다.그 반대는 사실이다.이 페이지의 문제는 콘텐츠 논의가 반복적으로 WP로 넘어간다는 점이다.그 주제에 대한 포럼과 같은 주장들.배콘드럼이 그 문제에 기여한 유일한 사람은 아니지만,
- 위키디터19920은 편집이 7,000개가 조금 넘으며, 그 중 4분의 1은 이슬람 여성 2명과 이슬람 혐오 활동가 3가지 주제에 관한 것이다.일한 오마르(토크 히스토리는 삭제 링크 감시 로그 뷰를 편집하는 것)에 대한 편집성 발언과 대화에 문제가 있고 합의를 보지 못하는 경우가 많으며, 신파시스트 사과론자인 앤디 응고(토크 히스토리는 삭제 링크 감시 로그 뷰 뷰를 편집하는 것)에 대한 편집과 논평은 늘 힘이 된다.이것은 좋은 모습이 아니다.가이 (도움말! - 오타?) 23:07, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- @JzG: 나는 그 측정들이 정확한지 모른다.그러나 JzG가 언급하고 있는 페이지 중 하나인 린다 사수르에서의 나의 편집은 그 페이지를 GA 상태로 만들었다.나는 일한 오마르의 선거 첫 번째 단락을 포함하는 일한 오마르의 선두에 글을 쓰는 것을 도왔다.나는 그 페이지에 공감대를 얻는 어떤 변화들과 그렇지 않은 다른 변화들의 편에 섰다.
- JZG가 BLP(WaPo, NYT 등 그 주제에 대한 고급 출처 중 하나, 이 언어를 사용하지 않음)에 대해 "네오파시스트 사과론자"와 같은 용어를 마구 던지고, 암폴에서 논란이 되는 페이지를 편집하기 때문에 내 입장에서 일종의 "문제적" 패턴을 제안하는 것은 터무니없고 노골적인 위반이다.n WP:Civil. 이것은 정확히 앤디 NGO에서 반복적으로 일어난 파괴적인 항아리 소동의 일종으로, JZG의 좋은 도움을 받아 이런 코멘트를 받았다.[42][43][44].나는 또한 이것을 거의 놓칠 뻔 했다: 내 논평을 주제의 "지지적인" 것으로 특징짓는 것은 우스꽝스러운 일이다. 우리가 주제를 물리치고 메인 페이지 내용을 위해 BLP를 따르도록 WP 페이지를 레딧의 또 다른 팔로 바꾸지 말라고 제안했다는 것이다.
- 나는 내 토크 페이지 기고문에서 좀 더 냉담해지는 것에 동의하겠지만, 솔직히 그 페이지에는 사용자들이 어떻게 그것을 다루고 있는지에 대한 일반적이고 지속적인 문제들이 있고 나는 모든 사람들이 "리미네이터"를 사용할 수 있다고 생각한다.위키디터19920 (대화) 23:23, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 위키피디터19920, 그들은 정확하다.신파시스트에 대한 ngo의 사과가 기사에 실려 있다.가이(도움말! - 오타?) 23:42, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 기사는 "네오파시스트"에 대해 언급하고 있는 곳은 어디인가?난 이 일에 관여하고 싶지도 않아.그건 바보같은 짓이에요.
- 그 문제는 분명히 대단히 논란의 여지가 많다.그럴 만한 이유가 있겠지.그렇다고 해서 WP:V와 WP:창문 밖으로 BLP.배콘드럼의 최근 편집은 위키리비스에 혐의를 진술하고 그가 조작된 혐의를 평준화했다고 제안함으로써 이루어졌는데, 이 두 가지 모두 사실이 아니다(여기 BD의 마지막 편집 참조).나와 다른 편집자는 이런 변화를 문제 삼았고, 갑자기 ANI에 와버렸어. 바콘드럼은 기사 토크 페이지에서 ANI를 반복적으로 위협하고 '갑질'이라는 비난을 하기보다는 내 토크 페이지에서 나와 상의할 수도 있었을 거야.더 좋은 것은, 그는 단순히 내 내용 비판에 비개인적인 방법으로 반응할 수 있었다는 것이다.하지만 그럼에도 불구하고, BD가 기꺼이 그렇게 할 수 있다면, 나는 기꺼이 내 역할을 할 것이다.그러나 내가 위에서 문제 삼았던 것과 같은 논평은 중단되어야 한다.위키디터19920 (대화) 23:50, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 위키피디터19920, 그들은 정확하다.신파시스트에 대한 ngo의 사과가 기사에 실려 있다.가이(도움말! - 오타?) 23:42, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- FWIW: 나도 같은 기사를 편집하려고 노력해왔고 일반적으로 위키디터를 민간 POV 푸셔로 생각한다.그들은 페이지의 주제에 대해 잘 반영되지 않는 편집 내용을 되돌리고, 아무리 잘 소싱되어도 기사 주제에 대해 부정적인 내용을 게재한 위키피디아의 BLP 정책을 위반했다고 허위 고발을 하는 경우가 많다.나는 또한 그들을 잡았다. WP:최근 Rfc에서 FORMOP쇼핑 나는 이 기사에 대한 그들의 우세를 물리치기 위해 노력했다: 그들은 Rfc가 그들 뜻대로 되지 않는 것이 확실해지자 BLP 게시판에 가려고 했다.로키 (대화) 06:10, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @loki TheLiar: BLPN에서 "포룸 쇼핑 잡아라"에 대한 당신의 믿을 수 없는 진부한 작업을 축하하지만, 내가 앤디 응고 토크 페이지에 BLPN 실에 대한 공지를 올린 것을 눈치채지 못하셨는지도 모른다.이 사용자는 자신들이 동의하지 않는 방식으로 가는 실이 "POV 푸셔에 의해 뒤틀려지고 있다"고 제안했고, 그들은 여기서 비슷한 비난을 하고 있다.필자가 쓰는데 도움을 준 리드는 세 단락을 논쟁과 잠재적으로 부정적인 정보에 할애하고 있기 때문에, 당신이 나에 대해 "모든 부정적인 내용을 제거한다"고 제안하는 것은 "아무리 잘 소싱되었다 하더라도" 거짓일 가능성이 있다.위키디터19920 (대화) 13:16, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 위키리디터19920에게 그들의 페이지에, 특히 앤디 응고 RFC에 대한 꽤 날카로운 경고를 주었다.비쇼넨 tålk 14:58, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)
- 고마워, 나는 그것이 토론의 열기를 좀 덜어주길 바라.바콘드럼 (토크) 20:53, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @Bacondrum: 그들이 다른 사람들을 위해 설정한 기준을 준수해야 한다(우리 모두에게 적용되는 기준).이 토크 페이지에 실린 이들의 댓글의 절반 가까이는 다른 편집자들에 대한 비판으로, "부적절하다" "실망스럽다" "협업을 거부한다"는 식의 눈초리를 거듭하고 있다.나나 다른 편집자가 배콘드럼에 동의하지 않을 때마다, 그들의 반응을 읽는 것은 위의 것 중 하나의 빙고 카드를 통해 달리는 것과 같다.이건 용납할 수 없다.나는 때때로 장황하게 말해왔다; 나는 개인적으로 Bacondrum을 비판하거나 "공격"한 적이 없다.이 사용자도 최근 페이지에서 1RR을 위반했다.@Bishonen:, 내가 고맙게 여기는 나의 토크 페이지에 매우 합리적인 메시지를 남긴 사람, 혹은 다른 관리자도 이런 행동을 언급한다면 도움이 될 것이다.위키디터19920 (대화) 18:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @Wikieditor19920: Talk에서 단어 검색을 실행했다.앤디 ngo와 '바콘드럼(토크)'은 21번밖에 올라오지 않는다.'위키디터19920(토크)'이 143위로 올라온다.나는 당신의 표현이 사실 정확하다고 생각하지 않는다.IHATEAccounts (talk) 18:39, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 하지만 Wikieditor19920은 Bacondrum, IHATEAccounts와 대화중이었을까, 그 Talk 페이지에 있는
143건
의 대부분의 사건에서?내가 현 토크 페이지를 형식적으로 숙독했다는 것은 사실이 아니라는 것을 보여준다.내가 형식적으로 Talk 페이지를 훑어본 것은 Bacondrum 이외의 편집자들과의 대화에서 Wikieditor19920을 보여준다.버스정류장 (대화) 20:08, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[- 그렇다, 그들은 대화 중에 많은 편집자들이 있다. 그것을 극복하는 것은 나뿐만이 아니다.편집 횟수와 대화에서의 예의상 결여를 살펴보면 상당수의 편집자가 WP이다.UNCIVAL, 인신공격, 신랄한 논평, 노골적인 논쟁, 위키리거링, WP:페이지 소유, 저속 동작 편집 워링...그들은 분명히 그의 주제에 대해 WP:배틀그라운드 태도를 가지고 있다.그들은 매우 파괴적이다.만약 그들이 중단하라는 차분한 요청을 거절한다면, 관리자 경고를 무시하라 - 어쩌면 일시적인 주제 금지가 도움이 될 것인가?아주 짧은 휴식이라도 도움이 될 수 있다.주제 금지는 내가 과거에 기사에 너무 사로잡혔을 때 나 자신의 파괴적인 행동을 바로잡는 데 도움을 주었다.그리고 그것은 많은 편집자들이 기고하고 싶어하지만 이 사용자들에 의해 열변을 토하고 있는 기사를 협력적으로 개선하도록 할 것이다.바콘드럼 (토크) 21:21, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 비쇼넨, 위키피디터는 더 많은 관심이 필요해제 말은, "로키 테리아를 축하해", "바콘드럼 또한 다른 편집자들을 고발하는 것을 좋아해" 등의 그들의 발언을 보면, 그들은 심지어 ANI에서 미개한 논평과 싸우고 있고 심지어 행정적인 경고에도 불구하고 듣기를 거부하고 있다.내 행동에 문제가 있다면 기꺼이 바로잡고 싶지만, 위키디터는 그 기사에서 거의 불가능에 가까운 협업을 하고 있다.그들은 최근 "블록 인용은 리드에게 적합하지 않다"라는 편집 요약을 가지고 소싱된 내용을 되돌렸지만, 그들이 되돌린 내용에는 블록 인용문이 없었고, 어쨌든 그와 같은 종류의 어떤 것도 말하는 지침도 없었다. 그는 단지 싸우고 있을 뿐, 그가 동의하지 않는 모든 건설적인 편집을 차단하고 있다.바콘드럼 (토크) 21:29, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 문제의 편집은 여기 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=next&oldid=985109142이고, 나는 무엇이 왜 이루어졌는지에 대한 요약 오류를 편집하는 Bacondrum이 옳다고 생각한다.IHATEAccounts (talk) 00:02, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 정말, 그리고 내가 그런 편집을 했을 때, 나는 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Andy_Ngo#Another_go에서 토론을 열었고 위키피디터는 내가 되돌리더라도 전혀 개의치 않았다. 그러나 위키피디터는 거짓 추론에 근거하여 뒤바뀌었다(나는 그것이 불쾌하다고 굳게 믿고 있다) 그리고 나서 자신의 내용을 추가하며 억울하게 고소했다.내가 더 많은 기여를 했을 때 편집 전쟁을 했던 나보시다시피, 나는 다른 편집자와 일하고 있다. (반대되는 견해를 가진 편집자, 그러나 우리는 시민적이 될 수 있다), 레드를 개선하는데 - 우리는 위키디터의 끊임없는 방해 때문에 말 그대로 내 토크 페이지에서 그 일을 하도록 강요당하고 있다.바콘드럼 (토크) 00:29, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 문제의 편집은 여기 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=next&oldid=985109142이고, 나는 무엇이 왜 이루어졌는지에 대한 요약 오류를 편집하는 Bacondrum이 옳다고 생각한다.IHATEAccounts (talk) 00:02, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 비쇼넨, 위키피디터는 더 많은 관심이 필요해제 말은, "로키 테리아를 축하해", "바콘드럼 또한 다른 편집자들을 고발하는 것을 좋아해" 등의 그들의 발언을 보면, 그들은 심지어 ANI에서 미개한 논평과 싸우고 있고 심지어 행정적인 경고에도 불구하고 듣기를 거부하고 있다.내 행동에 문제가 있다면 기꺼이 바로잡고 싶지만, 위키디터는 그 기사에서 거의 불가능에 가까운 협업을 하고 있다.그들은 최근 "블록 인용은 리드에게 적합하지 않다"라는 편집 요약을 가지고 소싱된 내용을 되돌렸지만, 그들이 되돌린 내용에는 블록 인용문이 없었고, 어쨌든 그와 같은 종류의 어떤 것도 말하는 지침도 없었다. 그는 단지 싸우고 있을 뿐, 그가 동의하지 않는 모든 건설적인 편집을 차단하고 있다.바콘드럼 (토크) 21:29, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그렇다, 그들은 대화 중에 많은 편집자들이 있다. 그것을 극복하는 것은 나뿐만이 아니다.편집 횟수와 대화에서의 예의상 결여를 살펴보면 상당수의 편집자가 WP이다.UNCIVAL, 인신공격, 신랄한 논평, 노골적인 논쟁, 위키리거링, WP:페이지 소유, 저속 동작 편집 워링...그들은 분명히 그의 주제에 대해 WP:배틀그라운드 태도를 가지고 있다.그들은 매우 파괴적이다.만약 그들이 중단하라는 차분한 요청을 거절한다면, 관리자 경고를 무시하라 - 어쩌면 일시적인 주제 금지가 도움이 될 것인가?아주 짧은 휴식이라도 도움이 될 수 있다.주제 금지는 내가 과거에 기사에 너무 사로잡혔을 때 나 자신의 파괴적인 행동을 바로잡는 데 도움을 주었다.그리고 그것은 많은 편집자들이 기고하고 싶어하지만 이 사용자들에 의해 열변을 토하고 있는 기사를 협력적으로 개선하도록 할 것이다.바콘드럼 (토크) 21:21, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 하지만 Wikieditor19920은 Bacondrum, IHATEAccounts와 대화중이었을까, 그 Talk 페이지에 있는
- @Wikieditor19920: Talk에서 단어 검색을 실행했다.앤디 ngo와 '바콘드럼(토크)'은 21번밖에 올라오지 않는다.'위키디터19920(토크)'이 143위로 올라온다.나는 당신의 표현이 사실 정확하다고 생각하지 않는다.IHATEAccounts (talk) 18:39, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @Bacondrum: 그들이 다른 사람들을 위해 설정한 기준을 준수해야 한다(우리 모두에게 적용되는 기준).이 토크 페이지에 실린 이들의 댓글의 절반 가까이는 다른 편집자들에 대한 비판으로, "부적절하다" "실망스럽다" "협업을 거부한다"는 식의 눈초리를 거듭하고 있다.나나 다른 편집자가 배콘드럼에 동의하지 않을 때마다, 그들의 반응을 읽는 것은 위의 것 중 하나의 빙고 카드를 통해 달리는 것과 같다.이건 용납할 수 없다.나는 때때로 장황하게 말해왔다; 나는 개인적으로 Bacondrum을 비판하거나 "공격"한 적이 없다.이 사용자도 최근 페이지에서 1RR을 위반했다.@Bishonen:, 내가 고맙게 여기는 나의 토크 페이지에 매우 합리적인 메시지를 남긴 사람, 혹은 다른 관리자도 이런 행동을 언급한다면 도움이 될 것이다.위키디터19920 (대화) 18:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
코멘트 나는 내가 여기서 해야 할 말을 한 것 같다, 나는 토론에 대해 너무 많은 이야기를 하는 내 성향을 인정했고, 비쇼넨이 제안한 대로 앞으로 그것을 고치도록 노력하겠다.필러가 나의 편집이나 코멘트에 대해 제기한 비난에 대해 나는 계속 대응하지 않을 것이다(분명히 거짓이다). 그러나 필러가 1RR DS 제재가 있는 페이지에서 지금 3RR에 접근하고 있다는 점에 유의할 것이다.나는 1RR에 보고서를 제출했다.배콘드럼은 이 시점에서 잘 알고 있는 그 페이지의 1RR DS에서 면제되지 않는다.나는 거기에 적절한 치료법이라고 믿는 것을 제안했다.위키디터19920 (대화) 03:49, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 귀찮은 편집 전쟁 보고서인 위키디터가 제공한 디프는 심지어 되돌리기도 하지 않고 그저 그가 좋아하지 않는 무작위 편집일 뿐이다.이것은 괴롭힘이나 다름없다.바콘드럼 (토크) 06:25, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
호킹 바이 호스 아이 백, 다시 한 번
| OP는 상대가 만든 명백한 주목할 만한 주제에 대한 경솔한 신속한 삭제 태그(A7) 때문에 주로 외설적이었다.그런 종류의 괴롭힘과 괴롭힘은 그 프로젝트에서 용납되지 않을 것이다.나의 관찰은 또한 OP가 계속해서 WP:B를 전시하고 있다는 것이다.바로 이 스레드에서 AT틀그라운드 동작.수정과 반성을 위한 시간.El_C 18:39, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
내가 처음 위키피디아를 몇 달 전에 가입했을 때, 나는 이전에 내가 관련된 기사에 대한 그들의 인지된 호킹과 싸움터 행동을 통해 그들의 오래된 계정인 "Horse Eye Jack"과 관련된 ANI 보고서를 작성했었다.관리자들은 그 당시 그것이 호킹의 자격이 없다고 판단했고, 나는 이것이 아마도 일회성 사건이 될 것이라고 생각했다.그 이후로, 나는 이 유저들이 관여하고 있는 갈등에 관여하지 않고 기사 토크 페이지와 심지어 그들의 토크 페이지에서도 어떤 이슈에 대해 토론하는 것으로 여기 이 유저와 공놀이를 하려고 한다.
그러나 이 사용자는 기껏해야 서로 최소한의 연관성을 가지고 있는 이 기사들에서 분명히 볼 수 있듯이, 내가 편집한 내용을 계속 따라가는 것을 멈추지 않을 것이다.게다가, 그들은 내가 편집자 상호 작용 분석기의 타임스탬프에서 보듯이 내가 이 기사에 참여하기 전까지는 이 기사에 어떤 기여도 하지 않았다. 내가 심지어 이 기사의 토크 페이지에서도 언급했는데, 이 기사들은 내가 편집한 것에 대해 질투를 하기도 했다.
- 1. 대만 미라클 – 분석기
- 2. 크로니 캐피털리즘 지수 – 분석기
- 3. 동아시아의 경제 – 분석기
- 4. 일-러 관계 – 논저
- 5. 연방주의 정당 – 분석기
- 6. 메이플워싱 – 분석기
- 7. 남한 – 맥락상, 그들은 다른 사용자를 되돌렸지만, 나를 포함한 다른 사용자들이 이 기사에 대한 편집을 계속하는 동안 내가 개입된 후에 일어났다 – 분석기
- 8. 싱가포르 – 더 많은 질식 – 분석기
- 9. 홍콩 차 문화 – 분석기
- 10. 대만 웨이브 – 분석기
나는 내가 완벽한 사용자라고 생각하지 않고, 나 자신도 실수를 했다.하지만 이건 정말 멈춰야 해.나는 다른 사용자들과 기꺼이 교류할 용의가 있지만 나는 이 모든 것의 동기에 대해 의문을 제기해야 한다.내가 어디를 가든 그들이 따라올 것이 거의 확실하다.우리는 일부 영역에서 편집하는 부분에 대해 비슷한 관심사를 가지고 있지만, 이미 이런 일이 일어난 횟수는 단순한 우연의 일치 그 이상이다.그리고 내가 말했듯이, 그것은 항상 내가 기사에 처음 참여한 이후야.이번이 처음이 아니고 아마 마지막도 아닐 것이다.나와 이 사용자 사이의 양방향 IBAN은 많은 미래의 문제들을 해결할 수 있다.텔쇼 (토크) 02:36, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 의견)싱가포르와의 연계된 차이점에서는, 서로 다른 두 사람이 상대방에게 되돌리는 대신 토크 페이지를 사용하도록 권하는 두 번의 연속된 반전이 있다. 그러나 Talk에서는:싱가포르는 두 사람의 이름이 단 한 번도 나오지 않는다.한편, 토크에서는:크론-자본주의 지수, 텔쇼와 호스아이즈백 사이에 소리높은 콘텐츠 분쟁이 있는 것으로 보인다.대화 중:동아시아 경제, 텔쇼와 호스아이의 백 사이에 소리높은 콘텐츠 분쟁이 있는 것 같다.대화 중:한국, 텔쇼, 호스아이의 뒷모습, 그리고 그 밖의 여러 사람 사이에 시끄러운 콘텐츠 분쟁이 있는 것 같은데....... 두 분이 사이가 안 좋은 것 같은 것이 분명하지만(그리고 나는 당신들 중 누가 '잘못된 버전'으로 되돌아가고 있는지/ 누가 시작했는지를 말할 정도로 자세한 사안은 잘 알지 못한다) 위키피디아가 잔뜩 채워져 있기 때문이다.사실상 모든 주제에 대해 정통한 편집자들이 WP:RfC(또는 심지어 WP:3O)를 시도할 경우 AN/I 나사산이나 IBAN보다 더 용인될 수 있는가? jp×g 04:42, 2020년 10월 25일(UTC)[
- 상호작용 자체의 문제를 제쳐두고 편집자 상호작용 분석기를 간단히 살펴보았다[45].내가 본 바로는, 그래, 때때로 '말눈의 등'은 텔쇼의 기여도를 확인해서 얻은 것이 틀림없다고 짐작되는 단풍처럼 그들의 일반적인 관심사와 무관해 보이는 모호한 페이지에 등장했다.그러나 다른 때에는 그것이 단지 그들이 보고 있는 관심 영역이었을 가능성이 있거나 Horse Eye가 그들의 계정 중 하나에서 먼저 편집한 페이지일 가능성이 있어 보인다.나는 지속적인 호킹의 충분한 증거를 보지 못했다. 실제로 때때로 [46] 텔쇼가 호스아이의 기여를 확인하고 있었을 것이라고 생각한다.닐 아인(토크) 08:14, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 안녕, 내가 나열한 이 8개 기사에 대해 HEB나 그들의 예전 계정이 이전에 수정되었는지 꼼꼼히 확인했는데, 그런 것 같지는 않다(위 기사에 대해서는 Editor Interaction Analyzer를 추가했다).호걸로 따지기 위해서는 얼마나 많은 불굴의 기사가 되어야 하는지 모르지만, 8은 확실히 적은 숫자가 아니고, 점점 늘어나고 있다.사실 우리 둘 다 관련된 기사가 더 많았는데 그 때문에 내가 빼먹었다.당신의 문장의 두 번째 부분을 설명하기 위해, 미국의 터닝 포인트에 대한 나의 사소한 편집은 단지 사용된 소스가 기껏해야 의심스러웠기 때문에 더 나은 소스 태그를 추가하기 위한 것이었다.그러나 한 가지 주요 요인은 내가 그들의 내용을 삭제하지 않았다는 점인데 반해 HEB/HEJ는 내가 하는 기고문에 대해 내가 한 번에 편집한 내용을 모두 백지화/삭제하는 경향이 있는 반면, HEB/HEJ는 선의의 가정과 무관하게 끊임없이 나를 '반달리즘'이라고 비난한 다음, 그 다음날 그들이 왜 갑자기 연루되는지에 대해 내가 토크 페이지에서 질문할 때 질문을 회피하는 경향이 있다.내 초창기 편집본들이건 극단적인 우연의 일치거나 아니면 그들은 이전의 상호작용을 바탕으로 나의 기여를 추적하고 있다.HEB는 또한 되돌릴 정당한 이유가 없을 때 "클린 디프" 또는 "합의 없음"이라는 용어를 사용하는 것을 좋아한다.대담해진 게 어떻게 된 거야? 토론 중에 그냥 되돌아가서 질타를 할 거라면?그들은 특별한 이유 없이 나와 함께 시작한 불필요한 편집 전쟁이 너무 많았다.내 계정을 위해서, 나는 그들이 편집하는 기사를 피하려고 노력해왔지만, 그들이 어제 또 다른 자발적인 기사를 통해 나를 다시 돌아온 후, 나는 이 괴롭히는 행동이 곧 멈출 것으로 보지 않기 때문에 이 이야기를 꺼낼 수밖에 없었다.텔쇼 (토크) 09:21, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 너는 내 요점을 오해했다.분명히 같은 일을 하고 있을 때 가끔 호스아이가 자신의 기여를 마치 무슨 큰 악인 것처럼 체크하는 것에 대해 불평할 수는 없다.우리의 우렁찬 제한의 요점은 다른 편집자가 항상 그들의 행동을 옳게 행동했는지는 큰 문제가 되지 않는다는 것이다.하지만 8번밖에 안 됐다면, 난 그게 선을 넘는다고 생각하지 않아.만약 Horse Eye가 먼저 기사를 편집했다면, 그들이 편집하는 이유는 그들이 당신을 따라하기 보다는 그들의 감시 목록에 있기 때문일 것이다.당신이 같은 기사를 자주 편집한다는 사실은 단지 당신이 비슷한 관심사를 가지고 있다는 사실을 반영한다.그리고 솔직히 8명 모두가 너의 기여에서 온 것인지는 확신할 수 없다.예를 들어, 편집된 남한은 당신이 관여하고 난 후 잘 만들어지는 것 같고, 또한 Horse Eye의 일반적인 관심 영역(즉, Horse Eye의 관심 영역)에서도 옳은 것 같다.동아시아.닐 아인(대화) 12:34, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 그렇긴 하지만, 너희 둘 다 서로의 기여도를 확인하는 것을 그만두는 게 좋을 거야.그리고 너희 둘 다 네 논쟁을 비인격적으로 만들려고 노력해야 해.따라서 기사 토크 페이지에서는 호칭에 대한 언급도 없고, 다른 편집자가 항상 X를 어떻게 하고 있는지에 대한 코멘트도 없다(예: 되돌리는 등).불행히도 대부분의 경우 토론을 통해 서로를 설득하지 않는 것이 분명해 보이기 때문에, 만약 여러분이 노력했고 그것이 아무데도 가지 않고 여러분 둘뿐이라면, 다른 사람과 재빨리 관련을 맺으십시오. 예를 들어,WP:전쟁을 되돌리기는커녕 끝없는 오락가락보다는 3O.닐 아인(대화) 12시 53분, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 타임스탬프를 보면, 터닝포인트 USA에 추가된 더 좋은 소스 태그는 HEB가 처음 관여했던 곳과 내가 크론자본주의 지수에 기여한 것을 반역하면서 동시에 그리고 그 다음 날 행해졌다.그것은 내가 미리 계획한 것이 아니라, 사실 나는 그들을 되돌리지도 않았고, 그것은 단지 꼬리표에 불과했다.너의 제안에 대해 말하자면, 나는 HEB가 그것을 존중할 수 있을지 모르겠다.분석기에 따르면, 누가 의도적인 방식으로 반전을 더 자주 하고 편집 충돌을 일으키는지는 명백하다.나는 또한 그들이 내가 관여하기 전에, 심지어 그들의 옛 이야기에도 불구하고, 내가 이 목록에 올린 이 기사들에 대해 어떠한 기여도 한 적이 없기 때문에, 그들이 감시 목록에 이 기사들을 가지고 있었는지 매우 의심스럽다.아마도 강제적인 IBAN은 "마지막 수단으로" 들리는 것처럼 들리겠지만, HEB가 비공식적인 IBAN에 합의하고 서로 다른 기사에 대한 기여에 관여하지 않는다면 나는 분명히 그것에 대해 냉담할 것이다.텔쇼 (대화) 13:27, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 그렇긴 하지만, 너희 둘 다 서로의 기여도를 확인하는 것을 그만두는 게 좋을 거야.그리고 너희 둘 다 네 논쟁을 비인격적으로 만들려고 노력해야 해.따라서 기사 토크 페이지에서는 호칭에 대한 언급도 없고, 다른 편집자가 항상 X를 어떻게 하고 있는지에 대한 코멘트도 없다(예: 되돌리는 등).불행히도 대부분의 경우 토론을 통해 서로를 설득하지 않는 것이 분명해 보이기 때문에, 만약 여러분이 노력했고 그것이 아무데도 가지 않고 여러분 둘뿐이라면, 다른 사람과 재빨리 관련을 맺으십시오. 예를 들어,WP:전쟁을 되돌리기는커녕 끝없는 오락가락보다는 3O.닐 아인(대화) 12시 53분, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 너는 내 요점을 오해했다.분명히 같은 일을 하고 있을 때 가끔 호스아이가 자신의 기여를 마치 무슨 큰 악인 것처럼 체크하는 것에 대해 불평할 수는 없다.우리의 우렁찬 제한의 요점은 다른 편집자가 항상 그들의 행동을 옳게 행동했는지는 큰 문제가 되지 않는다는 것이다.하지만 8번밖에 안 됐다면, 난 그게 선을 넘는다고 생각하지 않아.만약 Horse Eye가 먼저 기사를 편집했다면, 그들이 편집하는 이유는 그들이 당신을 따라하기 보다는 그들의 감시 목록에 있기 때문일 것이다.당신이 같은 기사를 자주 편집한다는 사실은 단지 당신이 비슷한 관심사를 가지고 있다는 사실을 반영한다.그리고 솔직히 8명 모두가 너의 기여에서 온 것인지는 확신할 수 없다.예를 들어, 편집된 남한은 당신이 관여하고 난 후 잘 만들어지는 것 같고, 또한 Horse Eye의 일반적인 관심 영역(즉, Horse Eye의 관심 영역)에서도 옳은 것 같다.동아시아.닐 아인(대화) 12:34, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 안녕, 내가 나열한 이 8개 기사에 대해 HEB나 그들의 예전 계정이 이전에 수정되었는지 꼼꼼히 확인했는데, 그런 것 같지는 않다(위 기사에 대해서는 Editor Interaction Analyzer를 추가했다).호걸로 따지기 위해서는 얼마나 많은 불굴의 기사가 되어야 하는지 모르지만, 8은 확실히 적은 숫자가 아니고, 점점 늘어나고 있다.사실 우리 둘 다 관련된 기사가 더 많았는데 그 때문에 내가 빼먹었다.당신의 문장의 두 번째 부분을 설명하기 위해, 미국의 터닝 포인트에 대한 나의 사소한 편집은 단지 사용된 소스가 기껏해야 의심스러웠기 때문에 더 나은 소스 태그를 추가하기 위한 것이었다.그러나 한 가지 주요 요인은 내가 그들의 내용을 삭제하지 않았다는 점인데 반해 HEB/HEJ는 내가 하는 기고문에 대해 내가 한 번에 편집한 내용을 모두 백지화/삭제하는 경향이 있는 반면, HEB/HEJ는 선의의 가정과 무관하게 끊임없이 나를 '반달리즘'이라고 비난한 다음, 그 다음날 그들이 왜 갑자기 연루되는지에 대해 내가 토크 페이지에서 질문할 때 질문을 회피하는 경향이 있다.내 초창기 편집본들이건 극단적인 우연의 일치거나 아니면 그들은 이전의 상호작용을 바탕으로 나의 기여를 추적하고 있다.HEB는 또한 되돌릴 정당한 이유가 없을 때 "클린 디프" 또는 "합의 없음"이라는 용어를 사용하는 것을 좋아한다.대담해진 게 어떻게 된 거야? 토론 중에 그냥 되돌아가서 질타를 할 거라면?그들은 특별한 이유 없이 나와 함께 시작한 불필요한 편집 전쟁이 너무 많았다.내 계정을 위해서, 나는 그들이 편집하는 기사를 피하려고 노력해왔지만, 그들이 어제 또 다른 자발적인 기사를 통해 나를 다시 돌아온 후, 나는 이 괴롭히는 행동이 곧 멈출 것으로 보지 않기 때문에 이 이야기를 꺼낼 수밖에 없었다.텔쇼 (토크) 09:21, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
제안 부메랑
- 나는 강력한 WP를 제안한다.부메랑, 이것은 모이라 K를 태그하기 위해 내 위키리크(wikibreak)를 구실로 삼았던 모든 사용자들이 한 것이다. 라이온스, 도그미드 소르바람, 안젤로 토마소 주니어는 신속한 삭제를 위해 내가 만들었지만 오랫동안 편집하지 않았고 텔쇼의 정상적인 편집 분야에도 원격으로 들어가 있지 않으며 신속한 삭제 태그가 실제로 정당화될 수 없었다.그는 또한 Apu Jan[47]을 빠르게 삭제하려고 노력했지만 그것은 대만 관련 페이지를 방해하는 일반적인 패턴 안에 있다.이에 대한 자세한 내용은 위키백과에서 확인할 수 있다.관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive 1048#사용자:텔쇼 & 엘타 삭싱.일방적인 리다이렉트 대만 미라클, 대만 웨이브[48], 홍콩 차 문화, 스리 Ts[49], 대만 위스키(더 있을 수도 있지만 지금 기억나는 것이 그것들이다) 등으로 삭제하기도 했다.밀크티 얼라이언스, 대만 미라클[50], 대만 차 문화, 대만의 해양 산업[51], 리틀 핑크[52], 대만 예술[53], 타이페이 항공우주 및 방위 기술 전시회[54], 그리고 나를 다치게 하려는 어떤 잘못된 시도에서 최소한 십여 명을 파괴하거나 폭격했다.위키피디아를 확인하는 경우:관리자 알림판/3RRArchive417#사용자:사용자가 보고한 Horse Eye의 뒷모습:텔쇼(결과: Telsho가 싱가포르 페이지에 편집 전쟁에 대해 특별히 경고를 받았다는 것을 알게 될 것이다. 그것은 어제 싱가포르에서 편집 전쟁에 대한 경고를 받은 것이었고, 이로 인해 여기에 이 내용을 게시하게 된 것이다.나를 윽박지른 사람으로부터 위키호잉을 했다는 비난을 받는 것은 정말 말도 안 되는 일이며, 텔쇼는 지금 3개월 동안 금지령을 받고 있으며, 그 피리에게 돈을 지불할 때가 되었다.Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:12, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 호킹, 파괴적 편집, 공공 기물 파손, 여기선 안 돼, 골라봐당신은 내가 만든 기사 목록을 따라 내려가서 체계적으로 방향을 바꾸거나 태그를 붙이거나 파괴한 기사들...당신은 당신이 그것에 대해 나 자신, 다른 편집자 또는 관리자들로부터 도전을 받았던 그 어떤 시간에도 그 편집 그룹을 정당화하지 못했다.지금 그렇게 하십시오.Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:11, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 너 자신을 위해 말하는 거야?텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 16:14 (UTC)[
- 나는 네가 대만 미라클을 동아시아 경제로 옮기기 전에 나 또한 그것을 편집하지 않았다는 것을 알게 될 것이라고 생각한다.어떤 호칭이 아닌가를 검토해 보시오, 나는 당신의 일방적인 소령 리디렉션(대만 웨이브와 대만 미라클의 경우) 페이지를 되돌릴 수 있는 합법적이고 철칙적인 정책을 가지고 있었다.코네티컷 주 하원의장의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:20, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- "
나는 합법적이고 철두철미한 정책적 이유가 있었어
." 그래, 네 HEB의 위키리크한 말투로 이 웹사이트에서 큰 잘못을 바로잡아줘서 정말 고마워.응, 나는 호킹이 무엇인지 검토해 봤어.WP의 첫 단락을 다시 읽어보면서 실제로 어떤 호칭인지 가르쳐 주시겠습니까?하운드, 그리고 네가 하는 짓은 사실 그게 아니야?왜냐하면 나는 최대 10개의 다른 예들을 보여 주고 있기 때문이다.텔쇼(토크) 16:34, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[- 한 번에 한 걸음씩.코네티컷주 하원의장(Moira K)의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?라이온스)?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 여기서 정확히 무슨 일이 벌어지고 있는지에 대한 질문은 피하면서 "한 번에 한 걸음씩" 가라는 말씀이시죠?다시 한번 WP에 언급된 것과 당신의 행동이 어떻게 다른지 설명해 주시겠습니까?HUUND? HEB도 HEJ 전에 HEB도 새로운 계정을 만드세요.그 당시에는 당신이 돌아올 것이라는 보장이 없었다.하지만 HEB로서 당신이 한 순간 당신은 나의 기고를 크게 복수하고 되돌려 놓았고, 오늘날까지 많은 다른 기사들을 계속 그렇게 했다.그래서, 그것은 무엇인가?텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 16:51, (UTC)[
- 내가 활동적이지 않다는 것을 알고 있었다는 사실과 "네가 돌아올 것이라는 보장이 없었다"는 사실이 너의 행동을 더 끔찍하게 만든다.텔쇼에서 정확히 무슨 일이 벌어지고 있는 거야?코네티컷주 하원의장(Moira K)의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?라이온스)?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 나는 당신이 내가 이전에 기고했던 기사에 갑자기 반전을 일으켜서 다시 당신의 존재를 알게 되었고, 따라서 나의 감시목록에 올라 있는 것이지, 그때 당신이 "활동하지 않는다"는 것을 알고 있었기 때문이 아니다.그리고 나는 당신이 10개의 개별 기사에 나와 관련된 것이 호킹의 자격이 되는지에 대한 질문에 대답하지 않을 것이라고 추측할 것이다.나는 또한 내가 연설자를 위해 WP:A7을 사용했을 때 특히 명확했다고 생각한다.난 솔직히 너와 동그라미를 치면서 시간을 낭비하고 있어.텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 17시 15분 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 상호작용이 호킹으로 적합하다고 생각하지 않는다.내 질문에 대답해줘서 고맙지만 네가 어떤 기준을 사용했는지는 중요하지 않다고 간단히 말해줘, "스피커"는 중요성 표시 그 자체로 A7은 절대 유효하지 않았다.당신은 또한 그 페이지에서 어떻게 자신을 발견했는지 설명하지 못했는데, 왜 당신은 코네티컷 주의 모호한 여러 정치 페이지에 빠른 삭제를 위해 태그를 달았는가?말눈의 뒷모습 (토크) 17:28, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 당신이 도그미드 소르바람에 붙인 신속한 삭제 태그를 놓고 왜 필 브리저와의 전쟁을 편집하기로 선택했는지도 의문이다.한 번도 편집하지 않은 주제에 방문하지 않은 페이지를 빨리 삭제하기 위해 지정한 다음 태그를 제거하면 관리자와의 전쟁을 편집하는 이유는 무엇인가?그것에 대해 어떤 가능한 정당성을 가질 수 있는가? (그리고 단순히 어떤 기준을 사용했는지만 말해도 그것을 자르지 않을 것인가)?호스아이 백(토크) 17:32, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 내가 왜 이 ANI를 시작했는지에 대해 주요 주제에 대한 관심을 끌려고 일부러 주제에서 벗어나려는 겁니까?난 네가 그렇게 하도록 놔두지 않을 거야.미묘한 WP:그래도 그 핑계로 탐문수사를 해.또한 필 브리저는 행정관도 아니며, 1회 복귀는 "편집 전쟁"이 아니다.만약 그렇다면, 당신이 "돌아온" 이후 당신의 기여의 약 80%는 전쟁을 편집한 것이다.다른 핑계를 대십시오.텔쇼 (대화) 17:37, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 나는 당신이 내가 이전에 기고했던 기사에 갑자기 반전을 일으켜서 다시 당신의 존재를 알게 되었고, 따라서 나의 감시목록에 올라 있는 것이지, 그때 당신이 "활동하지 않는다"는 것을 알고 있었기 때문이 아니다.그리고 나는 당신이 10개의 개별 기사에 나와 관련된 것이 호킹의 자격이 되는지에 대한 질문에 대답하지 않을 것이라고 추측할 것이다.나는 또한 내가 연설자를 위해 WP:A7을 사용했을 때 특히 명확했다고 생각한다.난 솔직히 너와 동그라미를 치면서 시간을 낭비하고 있어.텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 17시 15분 (UTC)[
- 내가 활동적이지 않다는 것을 알고 있었다는 사실과 "네가 돌아올 것이라는 보장이 없었다"는 사실이 너의 행동을 더 끔찍하게 만든다.텔쇼에서 정확히 무슨 일이 벌어지고 있는 거야?코네티컷주 하원의장(Moira K)의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?라이온스)?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 여기서 정확히 무슨 일이 벌어지고 있는지에 대한 질문은 피하면서 "한 번에 한 걸음씩" 가라는 말씀이시죠?다시 한번 WP에 언급된 것과 당신의 행동이 어떻게 다른지 설명해 주시겠습니까?HUUND? HEB도 HEJ 전에 HEB도 새로운 계정을 만드세요.그 당시에는 당신이 돌아올 것이라는 보장이 없었다.하지만 HEB로서 당신이 한 순간 당신은 나의 기고를 크게 복수하고 되돌려 놓았고, 오늘날까지 많은 다른 기사들을 계속 그렇게 했다.그래서, 그것은 무엇인가?텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 16:51, (UTC)[
- 한 번에 한 걸음씩.코네티컷주 하원의장(Moira K)의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?라이온스)?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- "
- 나는 네가 대만 미라클을 동아시아 경제로 옮기기 전에 나 또한 그것을 편집하지 않았다는 것을 알게 될 것이라고 생각한다.어떤 호칭이 아닌가를 검토해 보시오, 나는 당신의 일방적인 소령 리디렉션(대만 웨이브와 대만 미라클의 경우) 페이지를 되돌릴 수 있는 합법적이고 철칙적인 정책을 가지고 있었다.코네티컷 주 하원의장의 신속한 삭제를 요청한 정책 근거는 무엇이었습니까?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:20, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 너 자신을 위해 말하는 거야?텔쇼 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 16:14 (UTC)[
- 호킹, 파괴적 편집, 공공 기물 파손, 여기선 안 돼, 골라봐당신은 내가 만든 기사 목록을 따라 내려가서 체계적으로 방향을 바꾸거나 태그를 붙이거나 파괴한 기사들...당신은 당신이 그것에 대해 나 자신, 다른 편집자 또는 관리자들로부터 도전을 받았던 그 어떤 시간에도 그 편집 그룹을 정당화하지 못했다.지금 그렇게 하십시오.Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:11, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
다시 주제로 돌아가기.결론적으로, HEB는 내가 위에서 언급했던 여러 가지 개별적인 경우에 내가 처음 관여했던 토론에 참여하고 여러 페이지나 주제에 대해 되돌리더라도 그들의 행동이 호들갑스럽지 않다고 생각한다.그 정의가 그들에게 무슨 의미가 있는지 궁금하다...텔쇼(토크) 18:19, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
여름 편집의 PA
103.103.54.10(토크 · 기여)은 다소 매력적인 작은 소란을 이 [55]또한 SPA는 동일한 [56]의 두 가지 편집만 했기 때문에 매우 많은 SPA.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:06, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- PA의 IP를 차단했다.GirthSummit (blether) 10:22, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 참고 나는 103.154.54 범위의 일부 IP가 동일한 편집(더 많거나 적거나 그 이하만)을 수행한다고 잘못 알려 주었다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:26, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 글에서 103.154.54.0/24를 부분적으로만 긴 시간 동안만 차단했다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 12시 7분, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 참고 나는 103.154.54 범위의 일부 IP가 동일한 편집(더 많거나 적거나 그 이하만)을 수행한다고 잘못 알려 주었다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:26, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
사용자 49.180.129.245
이 사용자는 여러 영역에서 장애를 일으키고 있으며 이미 대화 페이지에 경고가 남겨져 있다.
- 대화 페이지에 욕설 메시지 남기기
- 문법, 철자법, 그리고 말하기의 측면에서 품질이 좋지 않다.
- 볼리비아 페이지의 전쟁 편집
- 주요 소스를 사용하여 신뢰할 수 있는 소스 페이지에 편향된 것으로 나열된 소스에서 논란이 되는 문제에 대한 진술.
- 동일한 편향된 출처, 즉 Ethical Hacking의 잘못된 결론을 통해 부정확한 방식으로 조직 인용
- 소스 재료로 백업되지 않은 소스에 대한 설명 작성
- 일반적으로 보다 중립적인 방법으로 쓰여진 자료를 되돌리는 주제 영역에 대한 자세한 지식의 부족
어떤 도움이라도 고맙게 생각했어.나는 전에 여기서 문제를 제기해 본 적이 없으니, 어떻게 되어 가는지 모르겠다.크르무어헤드 (대화) 14:33, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 왜 당신이 그들의 편집에 신경을 쓰는지 알 수 있지만 그들은 관리자들로부터 여러 개의 메시지를 받았기 때문에 그들은 이 계정을 알고 있다.또, 크르무어헤드, 게시판에서 다른 편집자에 대해 토론할 때마다, 그들에게 알려야 한다.나는 그렇게 할 것이다.리즈 23:20, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
미개한 편집자 마크 링컨
마크 링컨(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 블록 유저 · 블록 로그)은 경고등에도 불구하고 다른 편집자를 엄청나게 남용해 왔다.이것은 변명을 막기 위한 것이다.
여기 (아마도 불완전한) 역사가 있다.
- 1라운드, 10월 10일 : 남용 19:02, 경고 19:58
- 2차 10월 11일: 학대 18:36 (그 사람을 되돌린 것은 학대받은 편집자도 아니었다, 나였다), 학대 18:46, 학대 19:10, 경고 19:34, 경고 19:37, 경고 20:10
- 경고 무시됨:추가 학대 10월 11일 21:40
정말로 나를 흥분시키는 것은 지금쯤 그 학대받은 편집자가 심각한 오프위키 문제가 있다는 것을 분명히 했지만, 마크 링컨은 전혀 개의치 않고 그저 계속 그 안에 쌓여만 갔다는 것이다.그러자 마크는 발끈 화를 내며 가버렸고, 학대받은 사용자가 돌아오면 여기로 가져오라고 했다.그는 단지:[57][58]을 가지고 있다.[마지막 디프 수정 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)][하라
제발 그 남자 좀 조용히 막아줘.— 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 18:27, 2020년 10월 16일 (UTC)[
- 이봐, @Steelfilow: 네 차선에서는 어떤 조치도 취할 수 있는 것이 보이지 않아.그렇다고 해서 그 게시물의 잘난 체하고 소극적인 공격적 성격이 답답하지 않을 것이라는 말은 아니다.여기서 차단할 수 있는 공격이 보이지 않아.티데롤스 19:28, 2020년 10월 16일 (UTC)[
몇몇의 독설은 놀랍다.나는 더 이상 위키피디아를 편집하지 않을 것임을 분명히 했다.위키피디아가 신중하게 연구된 사실을 무시한 채 당긴 사람들 중 일부의 지지되지 않는 의견을 존중하기를 선호한다면 나는 전혀 괜찮다.나는 오래 전에 역사는 심각한 과목이고 역사학 표준이 있다는 것을 배웠다.위키피디아가 위키피디아의 사업인 입증된 현실보다 자신의 소원을 더 중요하게 만들고자 하는 사람들의 의견을 행복하게 만든다면 말이다.나는 위키피디아가 말한 의견을 사실로서 전파하고자 하는 욕구를 반박할 생각은 전혀 없다.위키피디아의 귀를 가진 사람들 중 몇몇은 여전히 이 문제에 있어서 그들의 행동을 추구하고 있다는 것은 가장 침울한 것이다.그것은 또한 믿을 수 없을 정도로 앙심을 품고 있으며 아마도 유치할 것이다.나는 위키피디아를 읽는 것을 추천한다:신뢰할 수 있는 출처, 위키백과:검증가능성 및 위키백과:중립적인 관점.나는 그들이 중요한 사람들의 의견에 불편하다면 위키피디아로부터 존경받지 않는다는 것이 아주 명백해졌을 때 그들을 믿을 수 있을 만큼 착각했다.내가 위키피디아를 계속 편집할 의사가 없음을 분명히 했음에도 불구하고 그들의 보복은 여전히 추진되고 있다.사실 나는 그 주제에 대한 평생의 관심과 그 주제에 대한 나의 큰 도서관의 소유에도 불구하고 최근 위키피디아 로케트리를 편집하라는 Soumya-8974의 초대를 거절했다.사사로운 만족을 위해 죽은 사람을 치려고 하는 사람들을 위해, 나는 먼저 가라고 말한다.난 신경 쓰지 않을 수 있어.마크 링컨 (대화) 2020년 10월 17일 19:52 (UTC)[
- 이거 좀 보잘것없어 보인다.한 편집자는 분명 주제를 연구하는데 상당한 시간을 소비했고 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 뒷받침하는 구체적인 수정안을 제시하고 있었다.그들은 상충되는 출처를 제공하지 않는 모호하고 이해하기 힘든 반대에 부딪혔으며, 그들이 합리적인 좌절감을 표현했을 때 반복적으로 NPA 경고에 시달린 것으로 보인다.이는 초라한 성적이었고, 그들이 그 프로젝트에 대한 신뢰를 잃었기 때문에 실제로 그 프로젝트에 기여하는 것을 포기할 정도로 내몰린 편집자에게 나는 느낀다.이것은 불행한 일화였고, 문제의 편집자가 이상적으로 다루지는 않았지만, 반대파들도 이상적으로 다루지 않았다.편집자는 그들이 이미 위키피디아를 떠나겠다는 의사를 밝힌 후, 그들이 조사를 하고 출처를 제공했음에도 불구하고, 계속해서 죽은 말을 때렸다는 비난을 받았으며, 그럼에도 불구하고, 우리는 여기서 그들을 보도하고, 행동조차 할 수 없는 논평에 대해 무기한 차단 요청을 하고 있다.그건 죽은 사람을 때리는 것도 아니고, 그냥 무덤덤한 춤이야.~스왑~03:49, 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)[
- @Swarm: 미안하지만, 너는 그에게 완전히 현혹되었다.그에 대해 제기된 반대는 매우 숙련된 네 명의 편집자에 의해 여러 번 상세하고 잘 설명되었으며, 그 중 한 명은 관리자였다."그들"이 자신에게 음모를 꾸몄다는 그의 비난이 당신에게 너무 친숙한 경종을 울리지 않는가?분명히 아니지, 대신 액면 그대로 믿기로 한 거잖아자, 이제 이 초기 토론과 이만큼 더 긴 토론 내용을 읽어보십시오. 그런 다음 다시 돌아와서 "상충되는 출처를 제공하지 않은 명백하고 이해하기 어려운 반대 의견"을 어떻게 보여주는지 설명하십시오.당신은 또한 이 편집본을 되돌려서 마크의 분명히 예의 바른 (당신들의 빛에 의해) 지혜의 말들을 토크 페이지에 복원해야 하며, 어쩌면 그것들을 고쳐준 것에 대해 나를 대중에게 감사하다고 보낸 편집자들을 비난해야 할지도 모른다.또한, 바로 이것까지 포함해서 토론에 계속 참여하는 것이 위키백과로 돌아가지 않는 것에 어떤 영향을 미치는지 우리에게 설명해 주길 바란다.무덤 너머에서 온 목소리야, 응?그는 기사 편집을 중단했다고 말하지만, 그가 중단했거나 모욕적인 말을 하는 것을 멈출 것이라고 말하지 않는다.그는 극도의 교육자여서, 그 구별은 중요하다. 그는 여전히 여기서 논쟁하고 있다.만약 그가 정말로 돌아오지 않는다면 이 토론은 그에게 무슨 문제가 될까?잘 내버려 두려는 그의 명백한 의도는 그의 무덤과 음모에 대한 비난만큼이나 공허한 것으로 판명되었다.— 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 12:28, 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 위키프로젝트 항공기에서 처음부터 이 문제를 따라왔기 때문에, 그것이 여기까지 오게 된 것은 놀랄 일이 아니다.사용자:Mark Lincoln은 위에서 언급했듯이 특히 매우 관대한 관리자 한 명을 포함한 여러 편집자에게 끈질기게 무례했다.1930년대 영국 비행선 지정 시스템의 점 이용에 대해 "진리"를 지키기 위한 위키백과의 음모가 널리 퍼져 있다는 그의 한결같은 주장은 어떤 의미 있는 방법으로도 위키백과에 공헌할 수 있는 그의 능력에 대한 나의 우려를 분명히 불러일으켰다.다른 편집자들에 대한 그의 계속되는 인신공격은 WP를 위반한다.Civil 및 WP:NPA와 그는 많은 경고에도 불구하고 이것을 계속하겠다고 고집했다.그의 게시물은 인신공격, 음모론, 특히 그가 WP에 대한 세계적 음모의 희생자라는 것을 빠르게 파고드는 것 같다.THETRUTH. 위에서 언급한 바와 같이 그는 편집을 그만두고 더 이상 참여하지 않겠다고 여러 번 언급했지만, 그는 그것을 실행하지 않았다.스스로 이러한 논의의 일부에 참여하려고 시도한 후, 합의에 기여하기 위해, 나는 이 편집자가 WP를 훨씬 넘어섰기 때문에 포기할 수밖에 없었다.데드호스와 WP 진입:여기 말고.이 시점에서 그는 단지 WP일 뿐이다.중단. 만약 그가 편집을 중단하라는 반복된 협박을 관철한다면, 나는 더 이상의 조치가 정당화될 것이라고 생각하지 않는다. - 아훈트 (대화) 13:00, 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 관여된 편집자로 핑계를 댔지만, 결의안을 제안하려는 나의 시도는 인정되지 않았다. 사실 그것은 단락 휴식 없이 또 다른 TLDR의 소문에 부딪혔다.그 때 나는 좀 더 건설적인 편집으로 넘어갔다.
- 나는 위키프로젝트 항공기에서 처음부터 이 문제를 따라왔기 때문에, 그것이 여기까지 오게 된 것은 놀랄 일이 아니다.사용자:Mark Lincoln은 위에서 언급했듯이 특히 매우 관대한 관리자 한 명을 포함한 여러 편집자에게 끈질기게 무례했다.1930년대 영국 비행선 지정 시스템의 점 이용에 대해 "진리"를 지키기 위한 위키백과의 음모가 널리 퍼져 있다는 그의 한결같은 주장은 어떤 의미 있는 방법으로도 위키백과에 공헌할 수 있는 그의 능력에 대한 나의 우려를 분명히 불러일으켰다.다른 편집자들에 대한 그의 계속되는 인신공격은 WP를 위반한다.Civil 및 WP:NPA와 그는 많은 경고에도 불구하고 이것을 계속하겠다고 고집했다.그의 게시물은 인신공격, 음모론, 특히 그가 WP에 대한 세계적 음모의 희생자라는 것을 빠르게 파고드는 것 같다.THETRUTH. 위에서 언급한 바와 같이 그는 편집을 그만두고 더 이상 참여하지 않겠다고 여러 번 언급했지만, 그는 그것을 실행하지 않았다.스스로 이러한 논의의 일부에 참여하려고 시도한 후, 합의에 기여하기 위해, 나는 이 편집자가 WP를 훨씬 넘어섰기 때문에 포기할 수밖에 없었다.데드호스와 WP 진입:여기 말고.이 시점에서 그는 단지 WP일 뿐이다.중단. 만약 그가 편집을 중단하라는 반복된 협박을 관철한다면, 나는 더 이상의 조치가 정당화될 것이라고 생각하지 않는다. - 아훈트 (대화) 13:00, 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)[
- @Swarm: 미안하지만, 너는 그에게 완전히 현혹되었다.그에 대해 제기된 반대는 매우 숙련된 네 명의 편집자에 의해 여러 번 상세하고 잘 설명되었으며, 그 중 한 명은 관리자였다."그들"이 자신에게 음모를 꾸몄다는 그의 비난이 당신에게 너무 친숙한 경종을 울리지 않는가?분명히 아니지, 대신 액면 그대로 믿기로 한 거잖아자, 이제 이 초기 토론과 이만큼 더 긴 토론 내용을 읽어보십시오. 그런 다음 다시 돌아와서 "상충되는 출처를 제공하지 않은 명백하고 이해하기 어려운 반대 의견"을 어떻게 보여주는지 설명하십시오.당신은 또한 이 편집본을 되돌려서 마크의 분명히 예의 바른 (당신들의 빛에 의해) 지혜의 말들을 토크 페이지에 복원해야 하며, 어쩌면 그것들을 고쳐준 것에 대해 나를 대중에게 감사하다고 보낸 편집자들을 비난해야 할지도 모른다.또한, 바로 이것까지 포함해서 토론에 계속 참여하는 것이 위키백과로 돌아가지 않는 것에 어떤 영향을 미치는지 우리에게 설명해 주길 바란다.무덤 너머에서 온 목소리야, 응?그는 기사 편집을 중단했다고 말하지만, 그가 중단했거나 모욕적인 말을 하는 것을 멈출 것이라고 말하지 않는다.그는 극도의 교육자여서, 그 구별은 중요하다. 그는 여전히 여기서 논쟁하고 있다.만약 그가 정말로 돌아오지 않는다면 이 토론은 그에게 무슨 문제가 될까?잘 내버려 두려는 그의 명백한 의도는 그의 무덤과 음모에 대한 비난만큼이나 공허한 것으로 판명되었다.— 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 12:28, 2020년 10월 18일 (UTC)[
현재까지 요약
조용해졌어.TL;DR 아마도.요약하면 다음과 같다.중요한 위키프로젝트(Wiki Project Aircraft)의 경험이 풍부한 핵심 멤버 3명이 새로운 편집자에 대해 불평하기 위해 이곳에 왔다."다른 편집자들에 대한 그의 계속되는 인신공격은 WP를 위반한다.Civil 및 WP:NPA와 그는 많은 경고에도 불구하고 이 같은 주장을 계속 이어갔다." "이 편집자는 WP를 훨씬 뛰어넘었다.데드호스와 WP 진입:여기 말고. 이 시점에서 그는 단지 WP일 뿐이다.방해.", "인신공격은 단지 말의 덩어리 속에 숨겨져 있을 뿐이다." -- 그 중 어느 것도 내 말은 아니다.
두 명의 관리자가 응답했다.조수간만의 말씀은 여기서 내 말을 비판했지만 그 문제 자체에 대한 그들의 천박하게 포장된 의견을 따르지 않았다.크래프트는 또한 숙제를 하지 못했고, 반대되는 명백한 증거에도 불구하고 침묵을 지키고 있는 이 파괴적인 편집자의 말을 믿기로 선택했다."나는 이 미개한 행동에 대한 보도가 이 장소에서 심각하게 받아들여지지 않는 것 같아 걱정스럽다." - 다시 한 번 내 말이 아니라, 나는 진심으로 그 감정에 공감한다.내가 너희 둘에게 너희들의 개인적인 집착에는 사실성이 결여되어 있다고 말하니, 너희는 고집이 센 난투극을 중지하고, 전능한 위키 신들 조수 롤스와 군집들의 심오한 위엄을 건드리지 않기 위해 그 사람을 놓아주어야 한다, 그들의 실명이 어떻든 간에, 허구는 받아들여지고 사실은 위키 신스라고 말하지 않는 것 같다.당신이 지금 그 모든 것에 대해 나를 비난하고 있다고 가정하자.] [조류 롤스와 군집] 당신은 여기 내 자신에 대한 복수를 추구하기 위해 당신의 침입과 협박에 의해 나타나게 된다. 물론 당신은 그것에 대해 상당히 기뻐할 것이고, 그것이 어떤 식으로든 모욕적이거나, 해를 끼치거나, 또는 WP에 반하는 것으로 간주하지 않을 것이다.Civil 또는 WP:NPA - 당신은 허술한 위선자가 아니기 때문에, 당신은 내가 처음에 올린 글을 진정으로 따르고, 그 안에 있는 모든 단어를 보았고, 그 뒤에 바로 쓴 심오한 지혜의 완전한 헛소리들을 지킨다.그렇죠?
진짜 관리자라면 어떻게 할 수 있을까?밤에 자는 데 도움이 된다면 마음에 드는 걸 금지해 줘. 하지만 애당초 그런 모욕적인 말을 한 남자에 대해 어떻게 좀 해봐, 그게 내가 바라는 전부야.— 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 15:51, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 네가 불평했던 편집자에 대해 좋은 인상을 주고 있어.타이데롤 16:50, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 항공기 프로젝트에서 내가 한 말에 이어 마크 링컨으로부터 그와 동의하지 않는다는 이유로 공격을 받았고, 이것들은 위에서 연관되어 왔고, 나는 거짓말을 하고, 상황을 꾸며내고, 무엇이든 방해한다는 비난을 받았다.그 후 나는 그 주제에 대해 전문가로 지내던 그의 세월에 역행하는 합의라는 단어를 꺼낸 것에 대해 위키 신이라고 불렸다.그는 사람들이 실명을 사용하지 않는 것을 싫어하는 것 같고, "만약 당신이 그의 실명을 달래고 싶다면 소설을 쓰는 것을 즐기라"와 같은 몇 가지 파문을 만들었다.나도 8월부터 편집하지 않았지만 R101페이지에서 공격을 받았다.나는 사별에서 벗어나기 위해 휴식을 취하고 돌아왔다. 단지 마크 링컨과 합의하지 않은 것에 대해 가혹하게 공격하기 위해서였다.그는 분명히 팀 플레이어가 아니며, 위키피디아가 자신과 동의하지 않는 모든 사람들을 공격하고 일하는 합의된 방법을 이해하지 못한다.나는 그가 팀 환경에 기여하고 다른 사람들에게 존경심을 보여줄 수 있는 징후를 보일 때까지 그를 차단할 것을 제안하고 싶다.MilbonOne (대화) 18:07, 2020년 10월 20일 (UTC)[
- 신고된 사용자에 대해 반복적으로 말한 것은 무엇이었습니까?죽은 말을 때리는 거 말이야?당신은 편집자를 성공적으로 프로젝트에서 몰아냈는데, 불행하게도, 당신은 그들을 끊임없이 자극하고 적대시하는 반면, 당신은 왜 그들이 차단되어야 하는지를 더 정당화하기 위해 그들의 반응을 이용한다.정말 보기 좋지 않다.나는 링컨의 말에 아무런 문제가 없다고 말하는 것이 아니라, 단지 링컨이 프로젝트를 그만둘 거라면, 당신의 삶을 나아가서 그를 떠나게 해달라는 것이다.그 시점에는 예방적 각도가 없기 때문에, 그 불평은 움직일 수 없다.링컨이 여러 번 한 것으로 아이러니컬하게 비난받았던 이 죽은 말을 계속 때리고 나서 그의 도발적인 반응을 더 많은 범죄의 증거로 보도하는 것은 명백히 우스꽝스러운 일이다.더 나아질 기사를 찾아서 그 사람 좀 내버려 둬.그는 분명히 당신만을 적대시하기 위해 여기 온 어떤 트롤이 아니라, 내용 논쟁에 좌절하고 지금 너무 지겨워서 그 프로젝트를 그만두는 것밖에 할 수 없는 편집자일 뿐이다.그를 계속 적대시하는 것은 괴롭힘에 가깝다.~스왑~{sting} 2020년 10월 21일 02:22 (UTC)[
- @Swarm: 네 소리지르는 "너"는 누구야?이 사건을 여기서 보고해 달라고 부탁한 그 분노에 찬 관리자 밀본원, 나 스틸필로, 여기 아훈트, 님버스227, 그 당시 기고했지만 이 토론에서 멀리한 다른 한 두 사람, 아니면 경험이 많은 편집자 조합?그리고 내가/우리/"너"라는 특정되지 않은 "그를 떨어뜨려"라는 당신의 증거는 어디에 있는가?"프로젝트?"나와는 달리, 당신은 단 하나의 디프프나 링크를 언급하거나 게시한 적이 없다.아니, 너는 다시 사실적으로 틀렸다; 6명의 편집자들이 그의 편집은 받아들일 수 없다고 정중하게 설명했을 때, 그리고 왜 그는 화가 나서 허둥지둥하며 경고에 응하기 전에 욕설을 하게 되었다.여기] 그가 위키피디아를 완전히 떠났다고 주장하는 한 편집자의 토크 페이지에 다시 게시된 여러 가지 차이점 중 하나는 그가 돌아오지 않을 것이라는 주장을 반복하기 위해 다시 반복하기 위해 되돌아온 한 예일 뿐이다.그는 위키피디아가 WP를 존중하지 않기 때문이라고 매우 분명하게 말한다.그가 본 바로는 THTRUTH는 증명할 수 있는 WP이다.NOTHERE, 당신이 무시하기로 선택한 많은 관련 편집자들 중 한 명이 지적한 사실.
- 자, 이제 쏘일 차례다.그가 정말 모욕적이었을까?그것은 우리의 논쟁의 핵심이다. 그래서 나는 작은 실험을 준비했다.나는 다른 관련 편집자들이 모욕이 내 스타일이 아니라는 것을 확인해 줄 것이라고 확신한다; 돌아가라. 그리고 당신은 당신이 모욕이 아니라고 주장하는 마크 링컨의 모욕과 거친 비난으로 내가 의도적으로 당신과 라이즈 롤을 부추겼다는 것을 분명히 알 수 있다.너무 예쁘게 해줬어.너희 둘 다 같은 거래에 끌어들일 만큼 모욕감을 느꼈어조수는 그들에게 축복을 내리며 내가 그 인상을 얼마나 잘 돌렸는지를 지적하기도 했다.그러므로 모욕적이지 않다는 당신의 주장은 위선을 위한 당신의 행동에 의해 드러난다.여기서의 당신의 논평은 이제 WP를 지지하기 위한 증거 기반 논거가 눈에 띄게 되어 있지 않다.Civil 및 WP:NPA, 단지 의견 기반의 모욕과 난폭한 비난의 거래, 그리고 메신저 (그것이 나야, 기억나?)를 쏘고 싶은 욕구.나는 단지 모두가 볼 수 있도록 그 점을 지적하고 싶었다.그리고 이제 네가 괜찮다면 나는 평상시 예의 바른 모습으로 돌아가겠다.
- — 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 09:47, 2020년 10월 21일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 좀 이상해지고 있다.나는 추상적인 주장을 하는 것이 아니라, 단지 여기서 연계된 토론들을 읽고 솔직한 평가를 내렸을 뿐인데, 당신은 들을 수 없거나 듣고 싶어하지 않는 것 같다.나는 링컨의 발언을 옹호하는 것이 아니라, 단지 링컨이 정당한 내용 논쟁으로 좌절하고 프로젝트를 그만두는 편집자로서 나를 때렸기 때문에 그를 막을 방증적 명분이 없으며, 실제로 링컨을 이곳에 보고하고 지나친 논쟁을 계속하는 것조차 역효과를 낸다고 분명히 말했다.마치, 이건 높은 철학이 아니라, 난 그냥 그 남자를 내버려두고 그가 그렇게 할 거라고 말한 것처럼 내버려 두라는 거야.여긴 로켓 과학이 아니야지금 너는 페달 답게 굴고, 이상하게 네가 어떻게 "굴고 있다"고 말하고, 나를 "굴고 있다"고 비난하고 있다.당신은 어떤 상상력으로도 정당화될 수 없는 드라코니안적인 행정 조치를 요구하면서 경솔하고 행동할 수 없는 보고서를 제출했다.두 명의 관리자가 당신의 보고서를 선의로 검토했고, 그것이 실행 불가능하다는 것을 알게 되었고, 당신의 반응은 처음부터 적대적이 되는 것이었습니다.며칠이 지났어, 링컨은 이미 죽은 지 얼마 안 된 것 같은데, 그런데도 당신은 계속 이 카프카에스크의 고소장을 찾아내야 한다고 주장하고 있잖아.편집장은 떠났지만, 당신은 여전히 여기서 교육 문제로 다투고 있잖아.WP 참조:승리, WP:데드호스, WP:배틀, WP:IDHT, WP:예방, WP:GRavedance, WP:REHASH, WP:BLUZON 등분명히 이 일은 아무 일도 일어나지 않을 것이고, 그것은 시간 낭비였다.괜찮지만, "AN/I를 트롤링"하는 것보다 건설적인 방법을 찾아봐.이건 분명 내가 여기서 본 이상한 에피소드들 중 하나야.~스왑~{sting}06:28, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 다음과 같은 사실이 아니라면 나는 당신의 평결을 받아들일 것이다.
- 네 명의 편집자들은 모두 경험이 풍부하며 마크 링컨을 상대로 이 사건을 변론했다.
- 한 행정관은 제재에 찬성하고, 두 행정관은 반대한다.
- 아직 뚜렷한 의견 일치가 없다.그래서 나는 여기서 더 많은 관리자들의 목소리를 호소했다.
- 너의 주장은 다른 면에서 흠이 있다.물론 링컨은 사라졌지 - 지금은.그는 이 토론에 기여할 수 있을 만큼 충분히 오랫동안 숨어 있다가 그것이 마무리되는 동안 부재중인 편집자를 연기하는 것이 그의 최선의 전략이라는 것을 깨달았다.(지금도 그는 잠복해 있는 것일까.만약 그가 이 일이 끝나면 다시 나타난다면, 당신의 평결을 바꾸시겠습니까?때가 되면 알게 될 것 같은 느낌이 든다.)당신은 또한 동료 관리자를 포함한 다른 관련 편집자들이 제기한 몇 가지 사항을 다루지 못한다.
- 내 행동은 "나는 그런 말을 모욕적이라고 생각하지 않는다"는 식의 위선적인 주장과 거짓을 끌어내기 위해 고안된 것인데, 이것은 당신의 최근 답변이 훌륭하게 뒷받침해주고 있다.하지만 그래, 너희 둘 다 널 엮어준 것에 대해 사과할게. 여기 기고자들 대다수가 좋은 이유로 여기는 것에 감사할 수 있길 바래.나는 너에게 개인적인 적개심이 개입되지 않았다고 장담할 수 있고 나는 다시는 그렇게 하지 않을 것이다.
- — 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 11:12, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 네가 그런 식의 수사적인 게임을 하고 있었다는 위의 확인은 나를 그저 '흐림'이 옳았다고 느끼게 만들 뿐, 문제는 다른 편집자가 아니라 '너'에게 있다.이것은 도움이 되는 행동이 아니다.당신의 "감빗"은 오해를 불러일으키기 위한 것이었고, 이것은 당신의 사건 버전에 대한 신뢰가 완전히 무너졌다는 것을 의미한다.이 실을 그대로 놔두고 넘어가길 강력히 제안한다 — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- @HandThatFeeds:여기 와줘서 고마워, 적어도 내 요청에는 누군가가 응해주었어.하지만 내 행동에 대한 너의 생각이 틀렸어. 나는 잘못 이끌지 않도록 매우 조심했어. 나는 "넌 내가 처음에 게시한 디플을 진심으로 따르고, 거기에 있는 모든 단어를 봤어."라고 분명히 말했어. 그들은 내가 그들의 반응을 자극하기 위해 링컨의 모욕을 그들에게 되받아치고 있다는 것을 완전히 잘 알고 있었어.나는 다른 관련 편집자들의 확증적인 논평이 무시되거나 비웃음을 당하는 것이 아니라 진지하게 받아들여지고 있다면 기꺼이 물러날 것이다.네가 여기 왔으니 그들에게 영광을 돌릴 수 있겠니?
- @MilbornOne: 다시 찾아뵙게 되어 죄송합니다만, 내가 당신의 사건을 유용한 방법으로 대변하지 못했다고 느끼십니까?내가 지금 여기서 믿을 수 없는 존재인가?만약 내가 여기 있는 것이 득보다 실보다 실이 더 심하다면 기꺼이 고개를 숙인다.
- — 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 18:40, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 네가 그런 식의 수사적인 게임을 하고 있었다는 위의 확인은 나를 그저 '흐림'이 옳았다고 느끼게 만들 뿐, 문제는 다른 편집자가 아니라 '너'에게 있다.이것은 도움이 되는 행동이 아니다.당신의 "감빗"은 오해를 불러일으키기 위한 것이었고, 이것은 당신의 사건 버전에 대한 신뢰가 완전히 무너졌다는 것을 의미한다.이 실을 그대로 놔두고 넘어가길 강력히 제안한다 — 당신을 먹여 살리는 손:Bite 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 다음과 같은 사실이 아니라면 나는 당신의 평결을 받아들일 것이다.
- 이것은 좀 이상해지고 있다.나는 추상적인 주장을 하는 것이 아니라, 단지 여기서 연계된 토론들을 읽고 솔직한 평가를 내렸을 뿐인데, 당신은 들을 수 없거나 듣고 싶어하지 않는 것 같다.나는 링컨의 발언을 옹호하는 것이 아니라, 단지 링컨이 정당한 내용 논쟁으로 좌절하고 프로젝트를 그만두는 편집자로서 나를 때렸기 때문에 그를 막을 방증적 명분이 없으며, 실제로 링컨을 이곳에 보고하고 지나친 논쟁을 계속하는 것조차 역효과를 낸다고 분명히 말했다.마치, 이건 높은 철학이 아니라, 난 그냥 그 남자를 내버려두고 그가 그렇게 할 거라고 말한 것처럼 내버려 두라는 거야.여긴 로켓 과학이 아니야지금 너는 페달 답게 굴고, 이상하게 네가 어떻게 "굴고 있다"고 말하고, 나를 "굴고 있다"고 비난하고 있다.당신은 어떤 상상력으로도 정당화될 수 없는 드라코니안적인 행정 조치를 요구하면서 경솔하고 행동할 수 없는 보고서를 제출했다.두 명의 관리자가 당신의 보고서를 선의로 검토했고, 그것이 실행 불가능하다는 것을 알게 되었고, 당신의 반응은 처음부터 적대적이 되는 것이었습니다.며칠이 지났어, 링컨은 이미 죽은 지 얼마 안 된 것 같은데, 그런데도 당신은 계속 이 카프카에스크의 고소장을 찾아내야 한다고 주장하고 있잖아.편집장은 떠났지만, 당신은 여전히 여기서 교육 문제로 다투고 있잖아.WP 참조:승리, WP:데드호스, WP:배틀, WP:IDHT, WP:예방, WP:GRavedance, WP:REHASH, WP:BLUZON 등분명히 이 일은 아무 일도 일어나지 않을 것이고, 그것은 시간 낭비였다.괜찮지만, "AN/I를 트롤링"하는 것보다 건설적인 방법을 찾아봐.이건 분명 내가 여기서 본 이상한 에피소드들 중 하나야.~스왑~{sting}06:28, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
OP로서 나는 방금 관련 위키프로젝트 회원들에게 연락했다.그 사건에 대해 어떻게 해야 할지에 대한 우리의 합의는 바뀌었다; 이제 우리 중 많은 사람들은 이것이 아무데도 가지 않고 있으며 더 이상 추구할 가치가 없다고 느낀다.나는 기꺼이 응해주겠다.비록 우리 모두가 의견이 일치하지 않더라도, 참여해주신 분들께 감사드린다.— 건배, 스틸필러 (토크) 18:38, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 당신의 보고서는 처음부터 거절당했고, 그것은 실행가능하지도 않았고 처음부터 아무 것도 진행되지도 않았다.우리는 이 일을 계속 반복적으로 너에게 설명하려고 노력했을 뿐이다.~스왑~ 00:40, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
사용자:헤르실리아아라마즈드
관계자
- WMrapids(대화 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그), 파일링 파티
- 에르실리아아라마즈드 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
- 모든 당사자가 요청을 인지하고 있는지 확인
- 분쟁 해결의 다른 단계가 시도되었는지 확인
- 나는 사용자들에게 우리 사이에 문제가 해결되었다고 말했다.
- 사용자에게 내 자신의 대화 페이지에서 삭제된 통지를 다시 추가하지 않도록 정중하게 요청
- 다시 한번, 나는 사용자들에게 내 자신의 토크 페이지에 있는 전쟁 편집을 "제발 그만둬"라고 정중히 말했고, 사용자들에게 이것을 게시판에 가져올 수 있다고 경고했다.
WMrapids별 문장
2020년 나고르노-카라바흐 분쟁에서 아제르바이잔의 군사행동에 변함없는 지지를 보여온 신규 사용자로 백과사전적인 이유로 이곳에 오지 않는 것으로 보인다.그들은 여기와 같은 아제르바이잔을 지지하는 편집 요약본에서 선동적인 논평을 했다.
첫 번째 편집에서 사용자들과 함께 유세할 수 있다는 것을 알아챘을 때, 그들은 대화 페이지에서 다른 아제르바이잔 사용자들에게 ping을 했는데, 내가 인포박스에서 편집한 내용은 "기사를 방해하기 위한 것이며, 아제르바이잔 군대의 최전방 변화를 숨겨 아르메니아 POV를 돕는 것"이라고 말했다.사용자에게 WP의 템플릿 섹션에 따라 편집한 내용에 대해 선의의 표현을 사용하라고 말했다.COVER, 나는 사용자들에게 그들의 토크 페이지에 공지했다.그들은 재빨리 나의 통지를 없앴다.선거운동 가능성에 대한 다른 공지사항들은 여기와 같은 관련 토크 페이지에 게재되었다.그리고 나서 그들은 내 토크 페이지에 WP:BATTL에 대한 더 많은 비난이 쏟아졌다. (공정하게 말하면, 나는 Template 섹션의 권장 공지를 사용했기 때문에 레벨 3 경고인 줄 몰랐는데, 어떻게 새로운 사용자가 이 정도까지 알고 있을까?)사용자와의 해제를 시도한 후, 그들은 내 자신의 토크 페이지에서 전쟁을 편집하기 시작했다.나는 이 사용자가 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니라, 이런 유형의 행동이 위키백과의 무결성을 위태롭게 하지 않도록 적절한 조치를 취할 것을 강력히 권고한다.--WMRAPIDs (대화) 16:27, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
헤르실리아아라마즈드 성명
나는 이 보고서를 관리자들의 주의를 끌기 위해 그가 이 보고서를 제출하기를 원했기 때문에 그의 토크 페이지에서 사용자를 되돌리는 것에 대해 의도적으로 물러서지 않았다.이 모든 것은 사용자가 아르메니아-아제르바이잔 분쟁의 지도를 위에서 인포박스의 아래쪽으로 옮기는 편집을 했을 때 시작되었다. (어느 누구와도 의논도 하지 않고) 자신이 변화를 만들었고, 이에 반대하는 사람은 누구나 의견을 낼 수 있다고 말하는 토크 페이지 토론을 열었다.(논의가 먼저 이루어지지 않기 때문에 규칙에 어긋난다.)그 반대다.나는 그 토론에서 내 논평에서 나는 그것에 반대했고 내가 그것을 POV를 찾았다고 말했다.나는 최근 분쟁에 참여한 사용자 2명을 ping하여 토론에 참여시키고 사용자가 토론을 열었음을 확인하였다.이에 따라 사용자는 내가 선의를 지키지 않는다고 비난해 왔다.내가 탐문수사를 했다고 비난하고, 내 토크 페이지에 레벨 3 경고를 남겼어.그리고 최근의 아제르바이잔 진보를 (경계적 반달리즘으로 간주할 수 있는) 추가했던 공통의 지도에 대한 편집 요약 없이 나의 최근 편집을 되돌렸다.나중에, 나는 그가 추가한 레벨 3을 입증하지 못하는 레벨 3 경고를 삭제하고, 방금 말한 위반에 대해 그에게 경고했다.1분도 안 되어 그는 그의 토크 페이지에서 삭제했다.나는 그에게 적어도 그것을 읽을 기회를 주도록 그를 되돌려 놓았고, 그는 내가 그것을 읽으면 이 논쟁을 열겠다고 협박했고, 나는 즉시 그것을 행정관의 주의를 끌기 위해 했다.
지금도 이용자는 「아제르바이잔의 군사행동에 변함없는 지지를 나타내고 있다」(토크) 17:04, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[]라고 공지하면서 근거 없이 나를 비난하고 있다
- "논의가 먼저 이루어지므로 어떤 것이 규칙에 어긋나는가, 그 반대는 아니다"라는 순서는 부정확하다.대담하고, 되돌리고, 토론하고, 대담하다는 우리의 주요 정책이 이와 같은 변화에 적용된다.◦ 트레이 마투린 17:42, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 그래, 사용자가 대담하게 행동했고, 다른 사용자에 의해 즉시 되돌아갔다.다시 되돌아갔지너는 BRD가 그렇게작동해야 한다고 생각하니?아니면편집의 경계선인것 같니?에르실리아아라마즈드 (대화)19:01, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 이는 완전히 다른 논의(템플링 사용자)이지만, 요점으로는 WMrapids가 사용한 템플릿은 Template:uw-canvass였다.이것은 탐색을 위한 단일 경고 템플릿이다.그래서, 이 절의 불행한 템플리트 측면 외에, 그 주장은 무트 IMO. 현시점에서는 상황에 대해 더 이상의 코멘트는 없다. --intelatitalk 19:19, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 논평: "나는 그가 이 보고서를 제출하기를 원했기 때문에 그의 토크 페이지에서 사용자를 되돌리는 것에 대해 의도적으로 물러서지 않았다."허실리아아라마즈드, 스탠딩컴퍼니는 문제가 되지 않지만, 문제를 건설적으로 해결하는 대신 갈등을 고조시키려는 의도로 행동하는 것이 문제다./ 티모시 ::토크 19:58, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 티모시블루 케어가 이것을 체크한다.Mr.User200 (대화) 01:12, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
아바스 크와바이
나는 AfC에서의 일을 통해 아바스 크와바이를 만났다.그들은 거의 모든 전기를 연속해서 30개 이상의 초안을 만들었다.이것들은 카피비오, 홍보 문제, 관련 없는 출처, 반복되는 포맷 실수와 같은 일반적인 문제들을 가지고 있었다.다른 검토자들과 마찬가지로 나는 이 패턴이 WP를 가리킨다고 생각했다.UPE.
그들은 나에게 '그들의' 기사들에 관여하지 말아달라는 일련의 경고([61, [62], [63],[64]나는 그들이 어떻게 그 기사들을 소유하지 않았는지, 그리고 누구나 그것을 편집할 수 있는지 설명하려고 노력했지만, 그들은 이 경고와 함께 LakeideMiners가 삭제했지만 Kwarbai가 대체한 그들의 사용자 페이지에 이 문구를 포함하여 지속한다.
우리의 상호작용은 그들이 (그들이 양말이 아니라는 것을 내가 본 곳에서) 이 양말 조각 조사에 이름이 붙을 때까지 긍정적이었습니다. 그리고 나중에 나는 그들에게 그들이 어디에 대해 쓸 것인지에 대해 어떻게 선택할 것인지 설명해 달라고 부탁했다.
Commons에서는 그들의 카피비오 업로드 패턴이 우려의 원인이다.그들은 저작권 위반에 꼬리표를 붙이는 것을 좋아하지 않는다.
전반적으로, 나는 이 편집자가 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 왔다고 생각하지 않고, UPE에 대한 나의 우려는 여전하며, 역량이 요구된다고 생각한다.커브 세이프 차머 (토크) 14:40, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 아바스 크와바이의 ("크와바이의") 기부금을 살펴보았다.나는 Kwarbai가 적어도 주관적으로 "백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것은 아니다"라고 생각한다; 그것은 백과사전을 쓰기 위해 약간의 노력을 기울이고 있는 것으로 보인다. 반면, 진정으로 WP:NOTHERER 노력(예: 단순한 트롤링, x-warning 및/또는 정치적 에지플레이)나는 WP에 대한 코멘트를 가지고 있지 않다.UPE 문제는 물론 사용 약관에 따라 허용될 수 없다.
- 그러나 Kwarbai는 WP의 개념을 이해하기 위해 전혀 나타나지 않는다.소유 및 WP:NPA, 그리고 만약 크와바이가 블록 없이 계속한다면(크와바이의 논평에서 극히 비협조적인 어조를 고려할 때, 합리적으로 무기한일 것이다) 편집자에 대한 위키피디아의 행동 기대치에 대한 이해를 인정해야 한다.크와바이가 커브 세이프 차머에게 한 말, 그리고 커뮤니티에 전반적으로 지시된 것으로 보이는 요약 편집을 통한 기록의 문제로서, 내가 보기에, 원격으로 적절하지 않다. - 줄리엣델탈리마 (대화) 19:32, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는, 이 실의 주제를 처음 접하고 나서부터, 그들을 주시해 왔다.그들의 편집 패턴은 매우 문제가 많고 UPE & Sockpuppetry의 모든 이야기 신호를 가지고 있다.건설적인 비판에 대한 그들의 적대적인 접근은 역효과를 낳&다는 사실이 이러한 협조적인 프로젝트로, 여기에 더해서 호환되지 않을 수 있는 것을 나타내고;그들의 incompetence(그 순간에), 내키지 않는다는 것을 배우기 & 노골적인 이미지 저작권 침해에 대해서 반복되는, 편집자들에 그것을 바로잡는 방법을 무릅쓰다 미묘한 위협을 만든다.한 blo가 어떻게 되ck 이 시점에서 더 이상의 붕괴를 방지해야 한다.셀레스티나007 (대화) 21:43, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 사용자는 User_talk에서 내 부분에 대한 편향에 대한 반론을 제기했다.렌즈콩#벨로 라피아.그는 내가 {{citation required} 또는 {{failed verification}}}}}라는 문구를 태그하여 '그의' 기사를 '공격했다'고 주장한다.그가 예로 든 것은 벨로 라피아지(Bello Lafiaji)이다. 내가 라피아지(Bello Lafiaji)를 위해 일했던 조직으로 통합해야 한다고 제안했다.줄리엣델탈리마는 그 기사에 대한 나의 편집본을 검토한 후, 나의 합병 제안이 '완전히 합법적'이었다고 크와바이의 번복한 것에 대한 편집 요약을 끝맺는다.크와바이는 제안된 움직임에 대해 아무런 논의가 없었다고 불평하지만, 만약 그들이 '논의' 링크를 클릭했다면 그들은 대상 기사의 토크 페이지에서 그것을 발견했을 것이다.
- 나는 이것이 현재 진행중인 WP에게 다시 말해준다고 생각한다.소유 및 WP:CIR. 태그가 붙은 기사의 이슈를 적절히 읽고 이해하고 행동하기보다는, 그들의 반응은 그것들을 취소하고 편견을 주장하는 것이다.Coor Safe Charmer (talk) 05:57, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
문제가 있는 사용자
안녕하십니까.
치슈팡이라는 이름을 가진 유저가 아라비아와 비잔티움에 관한 두 부분을 계속 삭제하는 것은 다른 언어에서 발견하기 매우 어려운 출처를 참조한 다음 "excuses"를 많이 보기 역사나 대화 페이지에 쓰는 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder이라는 글이다. 그는 이상한 것을 가지고 있는 것 같다.마치 그가 "논점"이나 뭐 그런 것을 만들려고 "절대"하는 것처럼 이 글에 대한 mbs 또한 그렇다.
이 상황에 대한 정의를 찾으려고 노력중이야
감사합니다 — 45.114.116.209 (대화) 21:21, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 안녕 IP 사용자, WP에서 이 주제를 이동했다.A, 정확한 위치가 아니므로.나는 읽을 수 없는 산문을 쓰고 WP를 쓴다고 생각하지 않는다.CITEKILL은 어떤 기사에든 특히 좋은 추가물이다.토크 페이지와 역사에서 본 바로는 추가 내용이 적절히 되돌아간 것 같다.AN에 게시하지 말고 해당 기사의 토크 페이지에 있는 WP:콘텐츠 분쟁을 수정하십시오.요점을 증명하기 위해 위키피디아를 방해하지 마십시오.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski 21:33, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 나는 인라인 인용의 부족, 잘못된 인용의 과잉, 압도적으로 비논리적인 출처, 의심스러운 내용, 그리고 금지된 계정에서 금지된 금지를 피하기 때문에 그들의 편집 내용을 되돌렸다.두 IP 모두 45.114.116.209, 185.213.24.162는 현재 금지된 IP 185.25.22.24와 119.235.251.172에 의해 내용을 다시 추가하기 전에 화약 역사에 대한 편집 이력이 없다.[65], [66], [67], [68], [69]를 참조하십시오.치슈팡 (대화) 21:52, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
답장고마워 이
"읽을 수 없는 산문을 쓰고 WP를 쓰는 것은 아니라고 생각한다."CITEKILL은 어떤 기사에든 특히 좋은 추가물이다." 우리는 그렇게 생각하지 않지만, 그것은 당신이 말하는 것처럼 그렇게 "읽을 수 없는" 산문으로 보이지는 않기 때문에, 그런 이유로 우리를 비난하지 마라.
특정 사용자가 증거를 위해 많은 출처를 요청한 출처에 대해서는 다음과 같다.
"...추가된 것은 적절히 되돌린 것 같다." 그 특정 사용자의 의도에 따라 "적절하게" 되돌린 것이다.
"...어떤 점을 증명하기 위해 위키피디아를 방해하지 말라." 우리에게 말하지 말라, 우리는 어떤 위키피디아도 당신이 말하는 "포인트"를 증명하기 위해 "포인트"를 증명하기 위해 어떤 위키피디아도 "해결"하지 않았다.
"Best wishes" 또한 최상의 바람—서명되지 않은 코멘트 앞에 45.114.116.209 (대화) 22:27, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
Wrs1428의 인신공격
| 편집자가 경고했다.다른 문제가 있으면 조누니크에게 연락하십시오. 소프트라벤더 (토크) 21:03, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC) (관리자 이외의 폐쇄) |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 이 사용자가 편집한 일부 내용을 2020년 미국 대통령 선거 시리즈로 되돌렸다.그들은 내 토크 페이지에서 왜 (70)와 내가 그들에게 설명했는지를 물었다.이에 대해, 그들은 내가 신경
안 쓴다고 했어!
너는 나의 언론의 자유를 침해해서
는 안 된다.
나는 그들의 토크 페이지[72]에 템플릿 메시지로 인신공격하지 말라고 경고했다.이에 대해 그들은 내 토크 페이지에 다음과 같은 메시지를 남겼다.오, 그럼 파워트립을 하러 가겠다는 거지?
엿
먹어!
([73])- 타탄357 03:23, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그들이 새로운 편집자라는 사실에 비추어, 나는 그들에게 공손한 경고를 남겼다.그런 노골적인 공격이나 문제 편집에 더 이상 문제가 없는지 알려달라.조누니크 (대화) 08:38, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
사용자:Davey2010
욕설과 인신공격.[74] 녹조그래픽스 (대화) 19:27, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 너의 논평이 어떤 식으로 다른 사람을 돕게 되었는가? 너는 나를 비난하고 계속 나를 찌르고, 나를 화나게 하지 않는 유용한 일을 해라.–Davey2010Talk 19:28, 2020년 10월 22일(UTC)[
- 기차가 열정적인 주제라는 건 알지만...칠랙스?데이비, 왜 녹조의 논평을 제거해야 했는지 모르겠어. WP에서는 어떤 기준이나 이유를 충족시키지 못했어.TPG. 그리고 당신은 그것에 대해 불필요하게 신랄했다.나는 녹조가 선의로 반응했다고 생각한다. 비록 녹조: 당신은 단지 수동적인 공격적 "당신이 틀렸다"는 것 대신에 당신의 진술을 명확히 할 수 있었지만, 당신은 "내 해석"을 분명히 할 수 있었을 것이다.@Davey2010: 제발 AG의 코멘트를 지우지 말아줘, 계속하면 내가 너를 차단해야 할테니까 우리 둘 다 재미없을거야.선장Eek ⚓ 19:42, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 논평) 지금은 클라임(claimee)이 참여했기 때문에 조금 늦었지만, 녹조그래픽스, 앞으로 당신은 정책 및 여기서 새 실을 만들 때 튀어나온 편집기들에 의해 지시된 대로 ANI에 누구를 데려올 것인지 사용자들에게 그들의 대화 페이지에 알려야 한다.—텐류우 🐲 (💬 • 📝 ) 19:54, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- @텐류우와 레비비치: 나는 완전히 데이브 2010년에 통보하고 (특히 그것이 전면적인 편집 전쟁에 돌입하려는 것처럼 보이자) 적절한 ANI 불평을 할 생각이었지만, 실생활이 중단되었다.그리고 FWIW, 나는 기차 기사를 편집해 왔다(대부분 다이어그램에 더 중점을 두긴 하지만) 아마도 Davey2010만큼.녹조그래픽스 (대화) 21:55, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
위키백과 대화:위키프로젝트 열차
정말이지, 나는 내 감시목록에서 고약한 쓰레기 토크를 계속 보고 있어.행정관이 개입해서 해결할 수 있을까?고마워요.Gobvy (대화) 19:47, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 위 내용을 참조하십시오.선장이케Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:48, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 브래드브가 나를 완전히 이겼다.나도 동의해, 진정할 시간이야, 이건 말도 안 돼.ANI에 끌려간 후에도 여러 편집자에게 인신공격성 공격을 계속 퍼붓는다.선장이케Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:54, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 나는 데이비의 반응이나 인신공격을 옹호하는 것이 아니며, 블록을 비난하지도 않으며, AG가 여기에 온 것에 대해 비난하지도 않는다.하지만, 생각을 위한 음식으로서, 데이비가 처음으로 그 코멘트를 삭제했을 때, 그는 분명히 그 코멘트를 읽었을 것이다.AG가 의도한 이익이 무엇이든 간에, 그것은 분명 바람직한 효과를 가지고 있지 않았다.모든 사람들이 그것을 다시 추가할 필요가 있었을까?솔직히 말하자면, 내가 AG의 입장이었다면, 파충류 두뇌는 본능적으로 모욕당하고 역행하는 것에 반응할 것이기 때문에, 아마 나도 그것을 다시 넣었을 것이다.그러나 단지 생각만으로, 용납할 수 없는 공격의 대상이 아니었던 외부 관찰자로서, 실제로 그럴 자격이 없더라도, 다른 사람들이 그들을 대하는 것보다 더 공손하게 대하는 사람들에게 백과사전에는 엄청난 이익이 있다는 것을. --플로켄빔 (대화) 22:58, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 또, 생각해 보면, 일종의 도움이 되지 않는 메시지였다.--Floquenbeam (대화) 23:00, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- @Floquenbeam:만약 당신이 나의 행동에 대한 당신의 염려를 나에게 친절하게 말해주었다면, "모두"라는 그룹의 멤버로서?WP별:TPO는 특히 반대의견을 가질 때, 사람들이 토크 페이지 토론에서 코멘트를 삭제해야 한다.내가 이해할 수 없는 일을 할 때의 표준적인 관행은 내 생각 패턴에 의문을 제기하는 작은 댓글을 남기는 것이지 전체를 제거하는 것은 아니다.위키피디아 토크에 의해 내가 그려진 비교적 명백한 사실을 진술하기 위해:위키프로젝트 열차가 내 토크 페이지에 올라와서 개입하기로 결정한 부적절한 행동에 대해 언급했다.내 경고[75]가 Davey2010의 블록에 대한 결과일 가능성이 높다고 생각하겠지만, 템플릿에 대한 내 읽기는 다음과 같다.Uw-3RR은 기술적으로 정확하다고 표시했다..02:11, 2020년 10월 23일(UTC) — Djm-leighpark가 추가한 선행 미서명 논평토크 • 기여) [
- 개입하는 것이 항상 옳은 선택은 아니지만...이미 여기로 끌려와서 인정해 준 후에 그 남자에게 경고했잖아. 그게 어떻게 상황을 악화시킬 수 있는지 알아보는 건 어렵지 않을 거야. 이미 어떤 이유로든 분명히 따끔한 감정을 느끼고 있었던 누군가와 말이야.이것은 법의 서한을 따르는 것이 반드시 상황을 완화시키는 최선의 방법이 아닐 때 중 하나이다.미래에 꼭 명심해야 할 것이 있는데, 분명히 이번 일은 잘 마무리되지 않았다.위키드 트위스트 로드 (토크) 02:54, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @위악의 꼬인 길:위키백과의 대화에 이의를 제기하기 위해 개입하지 않음:위키프로젝트 열차가 옳은 일이 아니었을까?그래, 나는 ANI[76]에서 일어난 지 3분 후인 19:30에 그렇게 했다. 그러나 Davey2010의 목적은 AG를 차단하는 것이었을지도 모른다. 그래서 나는 AG가 3차 반전을 하는 것을 원하지 않았을 것이다.그리고 대화 토론에서 반대 의견을 삭제하는 것은 매우 심각한 일이다.데이비가 원래 번복한 것에 대한 요약에 "젠장 꺼려"라는 코멘트도 넣으세요.데이비는 19:35[77]에 "우리 모두는 유치한 찌르기 없이 우호적인 토론을 할 수 있다, 만약 AG가 아무런 가치도 없다면 그들은 다른 곳으로 그냥 넘어갈 수 있다."라는 코멘트로 나를 되돌아보았는데, 데이비는 ANI(내가 아니었던 것)를 알고 나서 (내가 아니었다)는 것은 기본적으로 더 이상의 행동을 의미했다.19:42에 선장 Eek이 열차&oldid=984901056 984899983을 역회전한 것과 같은 순간에 나는 Template을 발행했다.uw-3rr 경고 (내 생각엔 선장 Eek의 기여를 내 앞에서 균형 있게 템플릿으로 결정한 것을 본 기억이 난다.Uw-3rrr는 그 당시 합리적이었다. (Webiakipedia 재독:편집 워링#"편집 워링 금지 사실을 모르는 편집 사용자가 나타나는 경우, 템플리트를 게시하여 이 정책에 대해 알 수 있음:사용자 대화 페이지에 있는 uw-3rr 템플릿 메시지." 문장의 다음 내용을 읽지 않은 채.직접 편집 전쟁에 적극적으로 참여하고 있는 경우 일반적인 경고 템플릿을 게시하지 마십시오. 이 경고 템플릿은 공격적으로 보일 수 있습니다.상황을 명시적으로 냉각시키기 위한 목적으로, 상황에 특히 적합한 사용자에게 자신의 노트를 작성하는 것을 고려하십시오." )그러므로 돌이켜 생각해 보면, 나는 [78]에 있는 나의 게시물에 대해 사과한다. 그것은 템플릿이 아니어야 했다. (그곳에서 나를 위한 학습지); 이것은 아마도 데이비가 "젠장 꺼진 트롤"이라는 코멘트와 함께 [79]을 되돌리게 만들었고, 이것은 블록에 기여했을 가능성이 있는 것으로 보인다.공교롭게도 나는 위키프로젝트 열차에서 문제의 RFC를 시험하고 나서 어제 다소 늦게 토론 내용을 다시 읽었다.감사합니다.djm-leighpark (대화) 08:18, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 개입하는 것이 항상 옳은 선택은 아니지만...이미 여기로 끌려와서 인정해 준 후에 그 남자에게 경고했잖아. 그게 어떻게 상황을 악화시킬 수 있는지 알아보는 건 어렵지 않을 거야. 이미 어떤 이유로든 분명히 따끔한 감정을 느끼고 있었던 누군가와 말이야.이것은 법의 서한을 따르는 것이 반드시 상황을 완화시키는 최선의 방법이 아닐 때 중 하나이다.미래에 꼭 명심해야 할 것이 있는데, 분명히 이번 일은 잘 마무리되지 않았다.위키드 트위스트 로드 (토크) 02:54, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- @Floquenbeam:만약 당신이 나의 행동에 대한 당신의 염려를 나에게 친절하게 말해주었다면, "모두"라는 그룹의 멤버로서?WP별:TPO는 특히 반대의견을 가질 때, 사람들이 토크 페이지 토론에서 코멘트를 삭제해야 한다.내가 이해할 수 없는 일을 할 때의 표준적인 관행은 내 생각 패턴에 의문을 제기하는 작은 댓글을 남기는 것이지 전체를 제거하는 것은 아니다.위키피디아 토크에 의해 내가 그려진 비교적 명백한 사실을 진술하기 위해:위키프로젝트 열차가 내 토크 페이지에 올라와서 개입하기로 결정한 부적절한 행동에 대해 언급했다.내 경고[75]가 Davey2010의 블록에 대한 결과일 가능성이 높다고 생각하겠지만, 템플릿에 대한 내 읽기는 다음과 같다.Uw-3RR은 기술적으로 정확하다고 표시했다..02:11, 2020년 10월 23일(UTC) — Djm-leighpark가 추가한 선행 미서명 논평토크 • 기여) [
- 또, 생각해 보면, 일종의 도움이 되지 않는 메시지였다.--Floquenbeam (대화) 23:00, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
일찍부터 차단 해제?
사건과는 상관없이, 나는 그들의 토크 페이지와 브래드프의 추리에 따라 데이비2010의 검토된 반응을 보게 되어 가장 기쁘다. 나는 더 이상의 혼란이 일어날 것 같지 않기 때문에 조기에 차단하지 않는 것에 대해 지지할 것이라고 생각한다.그것은 약간 "날아가는" 것처럼 보이고 아마도 의도된 것 보다 더 많은 것을 읽는 것 같다... 그리고 나는 Davey2010이 돌아오기를 바라는 많은 호의들을 보고 있는 것 같다.djm-leighpark (대화) 17:58, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- '핸들 밖으로 날아간다' - 이런, 적어도 '궤도를 이탈한다'고 말할 수도 있었을 텐데.<그로안> 그러나 진지한 어조로 데이비는 자신의 토크 페이지에 상당히 낙관적이고 성실해 보인다.내일 이 시간, 무슨 일이 있어도 블록은 갔을 것이다.우리 모두 쉬는 날이 있다.러그넛Fire Walk with Me 19:28, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
관리자들이 이 사실을 알고 있는지 모르겠지만, 데이브y2010이 욕설 때문에 ANI에 끌려온 것은 이번이 처음도 아니고, 두 번째도 아니다.AshMusique (토크) 22:37, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- Davey2010은 오랜 편집자였고 나는 이 페이지를 자주 이용하는 대부분의 관리자들이 그가 이전에 불평으로 여기 온 적이 있다는 것을 알고 있다고 생각한다.이것은 짧은 블록이었고 나는 그것이 그 목적을 달성한 것으로 판단되었다고 믿는다.리즈Read! Talk! 22:44, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 끝이 좋으면 다 좋다.Davey2010은 차단되지 않았고, 협력적으로 일하는데 전념했다.그와 녹조그래픽스 둘 다에게 보내는 마지막 메모로서, 여러분 둘 다 같은 분야에서 일하는 데 관심이 있고, 여러분이 의사소통을 할 수 있다면 그 협업이 훨씬 더 잘 될 것이다.우리의 가장 좋은 콘텐츠 중 일부는 동의하지 않는 사람들에 의해 쓰여진 것이지만, 여러분은 서로 대화할 수 있어야 한다.너희 둘 다 이 작은 주걱을 뒤로 하고 다시 제자리로 돌아오길 바라.그리고 마지막 저속한 말장난으로, 이 실밥은 아마도 닫힐 수 있을 것이다.– bradv🍁 23:38, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
나는 그가 욕설과 비난의 대상이 된 사람으로서, 만약 그가 나를 비난하거나 쿡쿡 찌른다면, Davey2010의 "진솔하고 거리낌 없는 사과"가 더 믿을 만 하다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.녹조그래픽스 (대화) 03:26, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그게 더 낫겠지만, IMO가 중요한 것은 데이비가 자신의 행동에 대해 사과했다는 것이고, 블록이 징벌적이어서는 안 된다는 것을 감안한다면 그것뿐입니다.사용자:더드래곤파이어300. (연출 문의)06:36, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
IBAN 제안
| 아주 명백하게 일어나지 않았다.폐업하여 낭비되는 시간을 더 절약할 수 있다.–Davey2010Talk 20:04, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 나와 녹조그래픽스사이의 양방향 IBAN을 제안하고 싶다 - 우리는 지난 6월에 ANI로 넘겼고 최근에 그의 코멘트를 주었고 오늘날에도 우리는 결코 성공하지 못할 것이 분명하다. 오늘도 나는 그가 나를 쿡 찌르려 하는 것처럼 코멘트를 보고 이 IBAN을 가지는 것이 그의 바보 같은 코멘트를 멈추게 하고 멈추게 할 것이다.나의 바보 같은 편집 요약.고마워, –Davey2010Talk 10:11, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 지지 - 이 두 편집자가 자발적으로 서로 멀리하지 않는다면, 그들은 서로 멀리 떨어져 있어야 한다.분명히, 이것은 서로의 대화 페이지에 의무적인 공지사항을 게시하는 것을 제외하고, 위반으로 인해 차단되는 고통에 대한 유일한 예외는 핑, 감사 등을 포함한 완전한 상호 작용 금지일 것이다.Mjroot (대화) 16:34, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
-
매우 약한 지지중립- 나는 다른 선택지를 보고 싶다 - 녹조그래픽스의 논평이 [80]에서 다시 절제될 것 같았기 때문에 나는 녹조그래픽스의 논평을 보았을 때 울 수 있었다. 비록 녹조그래픽스의 의도는 아니었지만.분명히 우리는 그것에 관한 한 자발적인 무고장 I-BAN을 선호할 것이다.@AlgaeGraphix, 이것에 대한 당신의 견해는?아니면 Davey2010의 관심사에 감사하고 Davey2010의 민감성을 피하기 위해 자발적으로 당신의 상호작용을 수정하려고 노력할 수 있는가?나는 정말 여기서 다른 선택권을 갖고 싶다.제발 AGF 난 여기서 최선을 다하고 있어. 하지만 정말 긴장되서 일을 더 악화시킬 거야.djm-leighpark (대화) 00:01, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[- 안녕 Djm-leighpark, 우리가 다른 선택권이 있다고 생각하는가? 나는 그의 길을 막으려고 최선을 다했지만 그는 여전히 나를 계속 찌르고 괴롭혔다. 만약 내가 할 수 있는 한 정직하다면 나는 IBAN이 없는 것을 선호했을 것이고 우리는 AG를 위해 서로 멀리했을 것이다.대단히 고맙습니다–Davey2010Talk 10:54, 2020년 10월 25일(UTC)[
- @Davey2010: 내 생각은 다음과 같다.AG가 더 낮은 빈도에 있더라도 가끔 "버퍼를 만지거나" 당신을 짜증나게 하는 것을 막을 수 없는 가정을 해보자.왜냐하면 그것이 당신이 통제할 수 있는 유일한 것은 당신이 기분이 상했다고 느낄 때 당신의 반응이기 때문이다.나는 지금 하려는 말이 쉬워 보일 수도 있지만, 당신의 반응을 바꾸는 것은 거의 불가능할 수도 있기 때문에 고맙다.특히 기분을 상하게 한 사람에게 직접 반응하지 않는 것이 중요하다.옵션 1은 단순히 그것이 무엇이든 무시하는 것일 것이다.옵션 2는 몇 시간 동안 미니 위키브레이커 자가 강화기를 사용하는 것이다.옵션 3은 당신에게 문제를 일으킨 사람과의 직접적인 대립을 피하기 위해 문제가 발생했다고 느낄 경우, 누군가 사전 자원봉사를 통해 중재에 나설 것인지를 확인하는 것이다.또한 GreenlawGraphix가 당신의 IBAN 제안에 응답하지 않은 문제도 있다; 그것은 완벽하게 허용된다; 그리고 GreenlawGraphix의 지원이 없으면 이 IBAN은 실패할 것이다.그리고 만약 그런 경우라면, 당신은 아마도 안전가치가 과도한 보일러 압력을 방출하도록 대처 전략을 훈련하고 미리 준비해야 할 것이다.djm-leighpark (대화) 22:08, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 안녕 Djm-leighpark, 우리가 다른 선택권이 있다고 생각하는가? 나는 그의 길을 막으려고 최선을 다했지만 그는 여전히 나를 계속 찌르고 괴롭혔다. 만약 내가 할 수 있는 한 정직하다면 나는 IBAN이 없는 것을 선호했을 것이고 우리는 AG를 위해 서로 멀리했을 것이다.대단히 고맙습니다–Davey2010Talk 10:54, 2020년 10월 25일(UTC)[
- 반대
지지- 나는 올해 초 Davey2010이 인신공격에 가담하고 "젠장 꺼졌다"와 같은 문구를 사용했다는 이전의 ANI 보고서를 기억한다. 그리고 만약 기억력이 작용한다면 Davey가 사과하고 다시는 그러지 않겠다고 약속하는 것으로 끝이 났다.비록 두 사용자 모두 그 보고서에서 잘못이 있었지만, 나는 이것이 패턴이 되지 않기를 바란다.편집: 내가 언급하고 있던 주요 항목 중 하나를 발견했다.위키백과:관리자_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1036#내 성기로 나를 불러라.다크나이트2149 06:55, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[ - 반대 - 공동체는 이미 부과된 것 이상의 어떠한 제재도 부과할 필요가 없다.나는 "젠장 바보" 같은 글을 쓰는 데이비가 누군가 (거스프!) 그를 비난했기 때문에 정말로 해를 입었다고 믿지 않는다.Lev!vich 21:31, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 나는 한번도 핑에 의해 "해롭다"고 말한 적이 없다. 나는 그의 바보 같은 대답에 질렸다고 말했다. .... 차이가 있다. (그리고 AG와의 모든 공정성 면에서 그는 아마도 나의 편집 요약에 질렸을 것이다!)사용자 2명이 서로 잘 지내지 못하고 서로 앙숙인 경우 이에 대해 분명히 조치를 취해야 한다. –Davey2010Talk 23:22, 2020년 10월 25일(UTC)[
- @Davey2010:갈등에 대응한 불성실성/인신공격은 지장을 초래하고 실수로부터 배운다는 것을 알고 있다는 이해가 있다고 생각했다.다크나이트2149 00:06, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- IBAN의 어떤 두 가지 방식에도 반대하십시오.페르 레비비치.데이비가 AG에 대한 인신공격은 했지만, 나는 AG가 그들에게 IBAN을 보증하기 위해 어떤 난해한 행동에 관여했는지 모르겠다.나는 데이비가 AG와 상호작용하는 것을 반대하는 단 하나의 IBAN을 반대하지 않을 것이다.사용자:더드래곤파이어300. (연출 문의)00:00, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- Oppose. The problem seems to be that Davey can't exhibit enough self-control to stop hurling F-bombs at other editors ("Fuck off troll", "Fuck off prick", "Fuck off child", "…you're a fucking idiot", "Fuck off", "[what] the fuck is wrong with you?", "…what in the holy fuck are you playing at ?", "fuckwit…"). 99.99% of editors manage just fine witho이렇게 독설을 늘어놓으면서, 데이비는 왜 그가 특별한 허가를 받아야 한다고 생각하는가? (
FO의/손잡이
가[82]날아간
것은내
가 여기 온이후로 대단한 것
이었다.)나는 준의 분진을 뒤로 하고(그리고 TBH는 그것을 잊고 있었다), 그러나 데이비는 아직도 원한을 품고 있는 것 같다.아마도 그는 나에 관한 통보만 묵살해야 할까?나는 확실히 내가 그와 일종의 치열한 경쟁을 하고 있다고 느끼지 않는데, 더드래곤파이어300의 제안은 타당하게 들린다.어떤 경우에도 내 입장에서 악의적인 의도는 없었으며, 그가 그토록 불쾌하게 여기는 핑킹은 기본 역전 편집 요약(그 역시 자주 고용한다)이다.만약 그것이 모든 사람들의 기분을 좋게 한다면, 나는 미래에 나의 논평으로 덜 웃기려고 노력할 것이다.녹조그래픽스 (대화) 00:21, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)
P.S. 답장이 너무 오래 걸려서 미안한데 IRL로 바쁜 하루였습니다.
- 맥락 문제 - 지난 3번의 요약 편집에는 더 많은 내용이 있었고, 그 내용이 그렇게 무뚝뚝하지는 않을 것이 분명하지만 무작위 공격도 하지 않았다.
- 내가 왜 너한테 원한을 품겠어?여기서 유치하게 들리지 않고 당신은 나에게 ping을 하고 "당신이 그것을 잘못 읽었어"라고 말함으로써 오래된 상처를 다시 열었다. - 당신은 솔직히 그 논평이 누군가에게 도움이 된다고 생각하는가?... 아니!여기엔 원한이 없고 네가 그렇게 생각하는 건 웃기잖아!
- 아니면 그냥 나한테 핑핑하거나 답장하지 않는게 좋을까? .... 그것도 효과가 있어.
- "그리고 그가 그렇게 많이 불쾌하게 여기는 핑은 기본 되돌리기 편집 요약이다." - 아니, 당신은 회전이 일어나기 전에 여기서 나를 비난했잖아 - 왜 내가 되돌아온 것에 대해 기분이 상했을까?–Davey2010Talk 11:23, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- @AlgaeGraphix: 논평이 Davey2010을 덜 성가시게 하려고 노력하는 당신의 목표에 감사하라; 나는 그것이 도움이 될 것이라고 생각한다. (이것은 당신의 이전의 논평들 중 어떤 것도 비난하지 않기 위해서가 아니라 미래에 갈등의 위험을 줄이려는 당신의 긍정적인 선의 시도를 지지하기 위해서라고 말하는 것이다.)감사합니다.djm-leighpark (대화) 01:02, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- 반대 - 나는 여기서 해결책이 무엇인지 모르지만, 나는 위의 다양한 연결고리에 근거하여 이 시점에서 이것이 요구된다는 충분한 증거를 볼 수 없다.\\ 16:58, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- 반대 GenergyGraphix는 그것을 가장 잘 말했다.나는 이것이 최선의 해결책이라고 생각하지 않는다.~ HAL333([86]) 18:52, 2020년 10월 26일(UTC)[
- 강한 반대.가해자와 블록키가 자신들이 공격한 사람과 쌍방향 IBAN을 제안하고 있을 때, 블록키를 조기에 차단하지 말았어야 했는지 의문을 제기할 때다.아마도 Davey2010은 그의 저속함을 통제할 수 없다면 기차에서 TBAN이 필요할 것이다.아니면 일방적 IBAN으로 AG와 상호작용을 금지할 수도 있어소프트라벤더 (대화) 19:06, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
Jaylen Waddle - 지속적인 인종차별주의
앨라배마 풋볼 선수 제이린 와들(Jaylen Waddle)이 인종 차별주의 발언과 잘못된 정보를 추가하기 위해 익명의 사용자들로부터 일관되고 반복적으로 공격을 받고 있는 페이지.마지막 비인종주의 버전의 페이지로 되돌아가도록 요청하고 인종차별주의로 유죄를 선고받은 익명의 사용자를 차단한다(2600:1005:B10C:274D:AEFC:12B0:C1F5:376B).— 2600:1004:B09A:3B2E:400E:31이 추가된 이전 미서명 주석CF:2BE4:8530 (대화) 01:03, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 기사를 반비례해서 반비례하고 다시 반반주의 이전 버전으로 되돌아갔다.Waddle은 오늘 축구 경기에서 발목을 부러진 것 같다.나는 그것이 왜 인종 차별주의적인 공공 기물 파괴로 이어질지 알 수 없지만 비열한 트롤들의 정신은 이해할 수 없다.이제, 나는 몇몇 IP를 차단할 것이다.컬렌렛328 2020년 10월 25일 01:16, (UTC) 토론하자[하라
- 사용자: 2600:1005:B10C:274D:AEFC:12B0:C1한 달간 F5:376B로 평소 IP를 차단하는 것보다 훨씬 길다.그 이유는 이 사건에서 명백히 인종차별주의적인 BLP 위반이 집중되었기 때문이다.컬렌렛328 2020년 10월 25일 01:25 (UTC) 토론하자[하라
- 버라이즌 와이어리스에 할당된 개별 IP를 며칠 이상 차단하는 것은 일반적으로 무의미하다.위키피디아를 편집하는 반달의 능력에 영향을 주지 않고 무작위 사람들에게 부수적인 피해를 입힐 것이다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 08:44, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 72시간을 제안하시겠습니까, 닌자 로보트피레이트?컬렌렛328 2020년 10월 25일 18시 5분(UTC) 토론하자[하라
- 그게 더 나을 거야, 응만약 그가 돌아온다면, 그것은 아마도 Special:의 다른 IP주소에 있을 것이다.기부금/2600:1005:B100::/40. 닌자RobotPirate (토크) 19:18, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 72시간을 제안하시겠습니까, 닌자 로보트피레이트?컬렌렛328 2020년 10월 25일 18시 5분(UTC) 토론하자[하라
- 버라이즌 와이어리스에 할당된 개별 IP를 며칠 이상 차단하는 것은 일반적으로 무의미하다.위키피디아를 편집하는 반달의 능력에 영향을 주지 않고 무작위 사람들에게 부수적인 피해를 입힐 것이다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 08:44, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 사용자: 2600:1005:B10C:274D:AEFC:12B0:C1한 달간 F5:376B로 평소 IP를 차단하는 것보다 훨씬 길다.그 이유는 이 사건에서 명백히 인종차별주의적인 BLP 위반이 집중되었기 때문이다.컬렌렛328 2020년 10월 25일 01:25 (UTC) 토론하자[하라
John B123에 의한 조기 초안의 지속적인 패턴
사용자:John B123은 정기적인 새로운 페이지 파트롤러로, 그의 편집사항 대부분이 건설적인 것으로, 대체로 감사하지는 않지만 중요한 작업이다.그러나, 이 점에서 그는 두 가지 나쁜 버릇이 결합되어 있다: 그는 줄의 새로운 끝에서부터 순찰하는 것을 좋아하고, 기사 초안을 작성하는 것을 좋아한다.위키백과:초안에는 "적극적인 개선의 증거가 없는" 경우에만 새로운 조항이 초안화되도록 분명히 요구한다.나는 몇 주 전에 위키피디아 토크에서 이것에 대한 설명을 요구했다.초안#초안화: 얼마나 활동적인가? 그리고 "최근 2, 3일 동안의 부수적인 편집"은 초안을 부적격으로 만들기에 충분하다는 반응의 일치된 의견이었다.John B123은 초안화되기 1시간도 안 되어 가장 최근의 편집이 훨씬 더 최근의 기사를 정기적으로 초안화한다.
이런 행동은 처음에 존이 댄저의 새로운 기사 구성을 드래프트:댄저의 구성으로 옮겼을 때, 내가 정확히 기억한다면, 내가 만든 다른 기사와 우연히 연결되었기 때문에 나는 자동적으로 이 사실을 알게 되었다.초안이 작성되었을 때, 새로운 기사는 분명히 홍보용이 아니었고, 하나의 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 가지고 있었으며, 초안 작성 전 한 시간 이내에 두 개의 편집본을 가지고 있었으며, 편집 요약은 더 많은 활동(참고 복수 및 앞으로 오기로 약속된 수치)을 약속하였다.초안화 직후에 더 많은 편집이 뒤따랐다.조사 결과 나는 훨씬 더 끔찍한 예를 발견했는데, 라몬 멜라도 파슨스는 초안 작성 전 1.5시간 동안 14개의 편집 패턴을 거쳐 초안을 작성했는데, 그 중 가장 최근의 것은 초안 작성 3분 전이었다.그 이후로 패턴이 계속되었고 오늘 사용자 토크에 ping을 받았을 때 다시 경고를 받았다.초안:C의 초안을 둘러싼 검쇼에2. 로빈 그레이엄(WP에 의해 분명히 주목할 만한 소식:PROF#C3는 초안 작성 시 기사에 포함된 해당 청구에 대한 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 하나 가지고 있다.내가 이것을 쓰면서, 사용자:에 나열된 10월에 73개의 초안이 있다.John B123/Drafify log, 그중에서 나는 처음 20년의 역사를 좀더 주의 깊게 살펴보았다.모두 기사 작성 후 24시간 이내에 초안을 작성했으며, 그 중 70%는 가장 최근 편집한 지 1시간 이내에 초안을 작성했다.(이 중 1개는 나중에 존이 알아차리지 못한 카피비오로서 삭제되었다.)
내가 댄저 구성의 신속한 초안을 정당화하기 위해 존에게 사용자 대화에 대해 정중하게 부탁했을 때, 그는 독백적이지 않고 반항적이었으며, 토론은 곧 시험적이 되어 존의 부분에 대한 악의적인 가정과 (나는) 내 스스로 어떤 무절제한 언어에 대한 악의적인 가정으로 가득 차 있었다.결국 그것은 존이 나에게 그의 토크 페이지로부터 떨어져서 내가 행정 조치가 정당화될 것이라고 생각한다면 다른 관리자들을 찾아달라고 부탁할 지경에 이르렀다.그래서 나는 이것을 ANI로 가져갈 것이다. 그곳에서 다른 관리자들이 발견되어 조치를 취할 수 있을 것이다.어떤 조치를 취해야 하는지에 대한 나 자신의 의견은 주제인 존이 기사를 작성한 지 24시간 이내에 초안을 작성하는 것을 금지하는 것으로 충분할 것이라는 것이다.나는 그의 (최근 부여된) 페이지 이동 특권이나 다른 더 강력한 제재의 철폐가 현재로서는 정당하다고 생각하지는 않지만, 이 WP를 두기 위해서는 무언가 조치가 필요하다고 생각한다.물어뜯는 행동을 견제하고 있다.—David Eppstein (대화) 22:50, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 이전 대화에 대한 나의 해석 사용자 대화:John B123/Archive 15#Draftification은 능동적인 개선의 증거가 필요하지 않기 때문에 위에서 설명한 방법이 다소 다르므로 다른 사람들에게 자신의 의견을 읽고 형성해 줄 것을 부탁하고 싶다.나는 C의 초안을 느낀다. 편집 요약에 따르면 로빈 그레이엄은 다음과 같이 정당화되었다.과소 공급되고, 초안 공간에서 배양한다.명성은 초안화의 기준이 아니며, 기사는 주목할 수는 있지만 아직 메인 스페이스에 대한 준비가 되어 있지 않다.편집 요약[87]에서 다른 패트롤러가 기사를 초안으로 작성해야 한다고 간주했다는 점에 유의한다. --John B123 (토크) 23:33, 2020년 10월 22일 (UTC)[
- 나는 현재 일반적인 주제에 대한 어떠한 의견도 가지고 있지 않지만, 당신의 논평은 "그 기사가 위키백과의 일반적인 공신력 가이드라인을 충족하고 따라서 메인 스페이스를 위한 준비가 되었다고 느낄 때, C에 대한 '검토를 위해 당신의 초안 제출!' 버튼을 클릭해 달라"고 말했다. 내 토크 페이지의 로빈 그레이엄은 내게 네가 초안을 작성하는 이유 때문에 내가 페이지를 뒤로 옮긴 이유라고 제안했다.(y talk 페이지에 나와 데이비드 엡스타인의 코멘트에 따라)검쇼에2 (토크) 00:09, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 이 논평을 주의 깊게 읽으면 더 심각한 문제가 있음을 알 수 있는데, 일반적인 공신력 지침은 이 기사에 대한 잘못된 공신력 지침이다.어쨌든, 우리는 명성에 대한 판단을 놓고 논쟁할 수 있지만 존의 반응은 이것을 여기에 가져온 실제적인 이유, 즉 그의 초안의 시기를 완전히 다루지 못한다.—David Eppstein (대화) 00:20, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 현재 일반적인 주제에 대한 어떠한 의견도 가지고 있지 않지만, 당신의 논평은 "그 기사가 위키백과의 일반적인 공신력 가이드라인을 충족하고 따라서 메인 스페이스를 위한 준비가 되었다고 느낄 때, C에 대한 '검토를 위해 당신의 초안 제출!' 버튼을 클릭해 달라"고 말했다. 내 토크 페이지의 로빈 그레이엄은 내게 네가 초안을 작성하는 이유 때문에 내가 페이지를 뒤로 옮긴 이유라고 제안했다.(y talk 페이지에 나와 데이비드 엡스타인의 코멘트에 따라)검쇼에2 (토크) 00:09, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 만약 내가 드래프트와 같은 보석들을 우연히 발견하게 된다면, 나 또한 그것에 대해 뭔가를 하지 않는 데 어려움을 겪을 것이라는 것을 인정해야 한다.JDS_Azuma 또는 초안:의회_선거_Maharshtra_2019가 줄지어 서 있다.동시에, 창조주에게 의심의 혜택을 어느 정도 확대하고, 우리가 메인 스페이스에서 가질 수 있는 당황하지 않을 어떤 것으로 바꿀 수 있는 기회를 그들에게 주어야 할 의무가 있다.나는 단지 빨갛게 달아오른 줄의 끝에서 순찰하지 말 것을 제안하고 싶다. 그래서 지금 당장 그 물건을 치우려는 가려움을 피하고, 저자에게 최소한의 AGF를 허용한다. --Elmidae (토크 · 기여) 02:31, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
개찰구를 바로잡기 위해 나는 NPP의 앞뒤를 순찰한다.카피비오, COI, 공격 페이지 등에 대한 일선으로 전방 순찰이 필요하다.또 "어제 만든 글은 아직 검토가 안 됐으니 검토할 수 있겠느냐"는 대사와 함께 NPP의 토크 페이지에 올라 있는 메시지를 줄이는 데도 도움이 된다.줄 맨 뒤에서 순찰하는 것도 분명히 중요하다.앞의 대화와 같이, NP 순찰이 대기열의 뒤쪽에서 이루어져야 한다는 지침이나 권고는 없다.
그동안 제시된 수치를 원근법에 넣기 위해 70여개의 기사가 초안으로 발송되는 기간 동안 약 3,500여개의 페이지 리뷰를 새로 작성했다.초안에 보낸 비율은 적다.나는 이것이 다른 패트롤러들과 어떻게 비교되는지는 모르지만, 그것이 주로 대기열 뒤쪽에서 순찰하는 사람들보다 더 많을 것이라고 의심한다(이미 드래프트에 보내야 할/할 수 있는 기사들이 제거된 곳). 그러나 최신 기사들을 순찰하는 사람들보다는 덜하다.
제안하는 것과 반대로, 나는 초안에는 기사를 보내지 않으려고 노력한다.같은 기간 초안으로 보내는 대신 131개 기사에 {{unreference}}} 태그를 붙였다.나는 그 기간 초안화보다는 {{refench}}에 태그가 붙었다는 1개 refef만으로 더 긴 기사의 수를 세는 데 신경 쓰지 않았다.
내가 페이지 이동권을 부여받았을 때, 그것은 관련이 없다.나는 남겨진 리디렉션을 삭제해야 하는 다른 사람들을 구하기 위해 이러한 권리를 신청해야 한다고 제안했다.나에게 새로운 장난감을 주었고 그것을 남용하고 있다는 것을 증명하려고 노력하는 것은 불공평하며, 또한 사실적으로 부정확하다.
근본적인 문제를 다루지 않는 것에 대해서는, 나는 이 대화가 내 토크 페이지에서처럼 퇴보하는 것을 피하려고 일부러 피했다.내 인내심은 점점 약해지고 있어. 같은 대화가 3번째로 꺼진 곳이기 때문에. --존 B123 (대화) 16:33, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 이런 종류의 장황한 "나는 다른 많은 일을 하고 일부러 초안의 시기에 대해 말하는 것을 거부한다"는 것이 바로 내가 위에서 "무신론적이고 반항적인"이라고 썼을 때 의미하는 바와 같다.—David Eppstein (대화) 19:47, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 a)라는 기사를 쓰레기 상태에서 접하고 b) 초안화에 적합한 (예: 주목할 만한 주제지만 사용 가능한 ref가 0) - 그리고 나서 그것을 새로 만든 c)이기 때문에 분류하는 것을 포기해야 하는 어려움을 이해한다.만드는 데 있어서 문제를 무시하는 것 같은 느낌이고, 현실을 직시하자, 많은 경우에 AGF는 실제로 낭비되고 있다...초안을 작성한 사람이 다음과 같은 경우:JDS 아즈마는 다음번 마이클마스 이전에 이것을 실현 가능한 것으로 바꿀까 생각중이었다. 나는 배틀크루이저를 먹을 것이다.기사를 개선하고자 하는 사람들의 발끝을 밟지 않으면서도 도움을 주는 나의 해결책은 작은 책갈피 폴더였는데, 내가 그 모든 사례들을 밀어내는 것이었다.며칠에 한 번씩 확인하고, 그 기간 동안 개선되지 않았거나 처리되지 않았다면, 초안을 작성해야 한다.좀 서툴지만 효과가 있다. --엘미대 (토크 · 기여) 21:23, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 편집자가 WP:Drafts#페이지 이동자에 대한 요구 사항: "편집자가 이의를 제기할 경우 페이지를 메인 스페이스로 다시 이동시키고 AfD에서 주목할 만한 목록이 아닐 경우"의 지침을 따르기를 바랄 뿐이다.이것은 자동적으로 해야 할 일이지, 누구도 따져야 할 일이 아니다.나는 이것이 몇몇 새로운 페이지 패트롤러들에 의해 무시되는 것을 보아왔기 때문에, 어쩌면 그것이 더 명백하게 만들어져야 할지도 모르지만, 어떻게 그것이 이미 있는 것보다 더 명백해질 수 있는지 내 평생 볼 수 없다.필 브리저 (대화)20:00, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 여기서 JohnB123을 제재하기 위한 더 명확한 정책이 필요하다고 생각한다.나는 적어도 4명의 다른 편집자들이 지난 날 창간 1시간 이내에 기사의 초안을 작성한 것을 보았다. 그 중 2명은 이번 달에 꽤 많은 기사에 대해 그렇게 했다.의견이 일치한다면, MoveToDraft를 수정하여 페이지 작성 / 이동 적용 전 마지막 편집 시간에 대해 편집자에게 경고해야 한다. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:34, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 다른 패트롤러들도 같은 일을 하고 있고, 마찬가지로 이 요구 사항의 이 부분에 대해 토론하기를 거부한다면, 아마도 그들은 같은 제한의 대상이 될 것이다.또는, 패트롤러가 반복적으로 노골적으로 위반하는 것으로 밝혀졌을 때, 이 요건을 집행하지 않을 것이라면, 요건은 없고, 초안화가 어떻게 작용하는지에 대해 편집자들에게 하는 말에서 삭제해야 하며, 새로운 기사를 작성하기 시작하는 사람은 누구나 이런 식으로 물릴 가능성이 높다는 것을 받아들여야 한다.나는 많은 새로운 기사들을 만들지만 위키백과 편집자를 이용하여 새로운 기사들을 만드는 것을 포기한 지 이미 오래되었다. 왜냐하면 나는 때때로 한 시간 이상 절약하지 않고 새로운 기사들을 만들고 싶지 않고 내가 끝나기 전에 방해하는 패트롤러들을 다루고 싶지 않기 때문이다.미리 보기 없이 텍스트 편집기로 기사 원본을 오프라인으로 만들고, 완성될 때까지 업로드하지 말고 미리 보기에 나타나는 이슈만 연마하십시오.그것이 우리가 우리의 모든 새 편집자들에게 하라고 말하고 싶은 것인가? (그리고 그것이 초안이라고 나에게 말하지 말라.초안은 스팸 발송자들이 그들의 콘텐츠를 메인 스페이스에 들어오지 못하게 하는 허니팟이 되기 위한 것이다.선의의 새 편집자들은 절대 초안을 사용하지 말라는 경고를 받아야 한다. 왜냐하면 그들의 초안은 AFD에서는 결코 날지 못할 까다로운 핑계로 메인 스페이스에 들어가지 못하게 될 것이고, 그리고 나서 그들은 6개월 후에 삭제될 것이기 때문이다.스팸에는 좋은 일이지만 신실한 새 편집자들을 다루는 초라한 방법) —데이비드 엡스타인 (토크) 07:59, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
편집장 미키 필리그란스키의 인신공격
편집기 사용자:미키 필리그란스키는 토크 페이지 반-알바니아 정서를 통해 "내가 반-세르비아 정보를 전파하는 것으로 많은 크로아티아와 세르비아 편집자들에게 매우 무례하게 굴고 있다"고 주장하며 나를 개인적으로 공격한다.[88] 나는 반(反)알바니아 정서 기사를 편집하여 그 기사에 관한 다양한 출처를 바탕으로 정보를 입력한다.나의 편집은 그 기사의 토크 페이지와 편집 요약에 설명되어 있다.그런 인신공격으로부터 나를 지켜줘 그리고 나는 적절한 처벌을 기대하는데 왜냐하면 토크 페이지는 인신공격용이 아니라 편집 이슈에 대한 이야기이기 때문이다.고마워요.미콜라22 (대화)20:29, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
{{{1}}-미키 필리그란스키 (대화) 20:50, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[- 노박 조코비치 기사의 반-세르비아 편집은 몬테네그로 부족 기사(이 페이지 참조)가 존재하지 않는다(토크 페이지: WP: 참조).OR, [89]), of Anti-Albanian sentiment article do not exist(this is claim of historians[90] not me, and confirmed in earlier edit as RS, in edit summary of editor @Peacemaker67:[91], of Name of the Serbs and Serbia article do not exist (this is claim of historian not me, supported with editor Miki Filigranski[92], and see talk page [93].미콜라22 (대화) 07:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 정말 망상에 빠졌군.--미키 필리그란스키 (대화) 09:11, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 그는 어떤 논쟁에서는 틀렸고 어떤 논쟁에서는 옳다. - 너처럼 - 그는 "망상적"이 아니다.정신건강 문제를 콘텐츠 분쟁에 끌어들이지 말라.--Maleschreiber (대화) 19:57, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 편집장은 나의 "지지"를 오해했다.나는 이것도 아니고, 이것도 아니고, 이것을 '지원'했다.차이가 있어.--미키 필리그란스키 (토크) 20:32, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 고마워 - 논쟁에서 사실만 부각되면 훨씬 나아.아마도 그는 토크처럼 그 시점에서 당신의 반대를 이해하지 못했을 것이다.다른 쪽의 부족_of_Montenegro#Stable_version은 원점에서 인용한 것을 되돌리기 전에 확인했다면 피할 수 있었을 것이다.이제, 나는 이것이 비례에서 벗어났다고 생각한다 - 개인 라벨과 관련된 논쟁의 성격이 우리가 지금 하고 있는 토론을 정당화하지 못한다. - Maleschreiber (토크) 21:25, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 편집장은 나의 "지지"를 오해했다.나는 이것도 아니고, 이것도 아니고, 이것을 '지원'했다.차이가 있어.--미키 필리그란스키 (토크) 20:32, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그는 어떤 논쟁에서는 틀렸고 어떤 논쟁에서는 옳다. - 너처럼 - 그는 "망상적"이 아니다.정신건강 문제를 콘텐츠 분쟁에 끌어들이지 말라.--Maleschreiber (대화) 19:57, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 정말 망상에 빠졌군.--미키 필리그란스키 (대화) 09:11, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 노박 조코비치 기사의 반-세르비아 편집은 몬테네그로 부족 기사(이 페이지 참조)가 존재하지 않는다(토크 페이지: WP: 참조).OR, [89]), of Anti-Albanian sentiment article do not exist(this is claim of historians[90] not me, and confirmed in earlier edit as RS, in edit summary of editor @Peacemaker67:[91], of Name of the Serbs and Serbia article do not exist (this is claim of historian not me, supported with editor Miki Filigranski[92], and see talk page [93].미콜라22 (대화) 07:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
성명서, 나는 허위 고소에 대한 보고서를 철회하고 나쁜 파일들은 없다. 왜냐하면 과거에 나와 미키 필리그란스키 편집자는 우리의 편집 작업에서 어떤 전쟁도 벌이지 않았기 때문이다. 그리고 나는 이것이 과장된 논쟁이었다고 생각한다.인신공격에 관한 이 첫 번째 보도에 대해서는 보도된 것으로 남아 있지만 만약 제재가 제안된다면, 나는 온화한 경고를 기대한다. 왜냐하면 우리가 처음으로 갈등을 겪고 있을 때 그의 처벌은 나에게 아무런 의미가 없기 때문이다.미콜라22 (대화) 2020년 10월 25일 14:12 (UTC)[
편집자 미키 필리그란스키에 대한 허위 고발
{{{1}}}미콜라22 (대화) 20:59, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
{{{1}}-미키 필리그란스키 (대화) 21:06, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[- 미키 필리그란스키에게 일어난 일은 유감이야.그의 저술 중 일부는 우세한 반세르비아 정서는 말할 것도 없고 우월주의적이고 인종차별주의적인 것으로 비칠 수 있는 유피디아 포럼(다른 이름 아래)에서도 같은 편집자가 활동하고 있다는 점을 지적하지 않을 수 없다.나는 우리가 en에 대한 직접적인 정보를 링크하거나 줄 수 없다는 것을 알고 있다.위키, 하지만 이번 사건에서 지역사회의 합의가 뭔지는 잘 모르겠어!확실히 우리는 잠재적인 사생활 문제 때문에 그러한 사건들을 외면할 수 없는가?만약 이 의견이 적절하지 않다면, 나는 관리자에게 그것을 제거하도록 요청하겠다.사드키(말이 싸다) 00:47, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 나는 이것이 위키백과의 맥락에서 너무 많이 확대되었다고 생각한다.편집자들은 위키피디아의 테두리 밖에서 서로 의사소통을 할 수 있지만 WP:위키백과에 대한 개인적인 세부사항.미키 필리그란스키가 위키백과의 범위 밖인 미콜라22와의 의사소통에 대해 정확하지 않은 말을 했다면 말이다.WP가 있다.미콜라22가 반-세르비아 정서에 동기를 부여하고 있으며 반-세르비아 의제를 갖고 있다는 MF의 논평에서 ASPERUSE는 다음과 같이 말했다.편집은 의도된 동기가 아니라 판단되어야 한다.
- 나는 Mikola22의 일부 편집에 동의하지 않지만 많은 논쟁에서 그가 근본적으로 옳다.몬테네그로의 부족에 대해 그는 토크 페이지 토크에서 설명한 문장을 삭제했다.몬테네그로와 관련하여 부족_of_몬테네그로#Stable_version은 소스에 나타나지 않는다.그는 사도코와 미키 필리그란스키에 의해 총 세 차례나 회신을 당했는데, 그는 이 토크 페이지에 답하지 않았다.그래서 근본적으로는 옳은 편집자(출처에서는 기사의 주제를 언급하지 않는다)가 총 세 차례나 다른 편집자 두 명에게 뒤바뀌었고, 그들은 토크 페이지에서는 대답조차 하지 않았다.그리고 그는 그들 중 한 명으로부터 "반(反)-무(反)-무(無)의(反)의제"라는 비난을 받고 있는 반면, 다른 한 명(사드코)은 일종의 WP가 된 미콜라22[94]에 대한 보고서를 제출한 것에 대해 AE에 대한 경고가 기록되어 있다.부메랑과 사드코는 "콘텐츠 분쟁의 반대자를 제거하기 위해 AE를 무기화하지 않았다"고 말했다.그리고 지금 사드코는 미콜라22가 "그의 글들 중 일부는 우월주의적이고 인종차별주의적인 것으로 보일 수 있는 포럼에 계정을 갖고 있다"고 비난하고 있다.자, 그건 무거운 WP 입니다.ASPERUSE, 그러나 발칸 토픽 영역의 논의 맥락에서 볼 때 전형적인 질식이다.
- 문제의 근원은 발칸 분쟁에 대한 관리감독이 없다는 데 있다.감시는 편집과정에 대한 감독을 의미하며, 보통 큰 혼란의 끝에 오는 징벌적 조치가 아니라, 그들이 단지 하나의 계정만 정지시키기 때문에 아무 것도 해결하지 못하는 것을 의미한다. 이는 두어 달 후에 새로운 사용자 이름으로 다시 나타난다(지난 2주 동안 두 건의 SPI를 신청했다).WP를 재점검하려면:ASPERSIONs는 중지하고, 대화 페이지는 콘텐츠 분쟁에 사용되어야 하며, 관리자들을 위한 메시지: 더 많이 참석해야 한다.고마워.--Maleschreiber (대화) 03:42, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 만약 당신이 내가 가진 것을 읽을 기회가 있다면, 당신은 Malschreiber의 코멘트에 주의할 것이다.나는 모든 역겨운 연결고리를 가지고 있지만, 위키 가이드라인에 대한 기본적인 존경심을 가지고 있기 때문에 게시하지 않을 것이다.상대화를 시도하고 악마의 옹호자가 되려는 어떤 시도도 여기서 도움이 될 수 없다.일반적으로 엄지손가락으로 누구를 맞추는지 조심해라.사드키(말이 싸다) 10시 39분, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 나는 당신이 다른 편집자와 주고받는 오프위키 통신에 대해 알고 싶지 않다. 그것은 ARBCOM용이다.당신이 미콜라22에 대해 심한 비난을 했고, "정렬"에 대해서는, 나는 미키 필리그란스키와 미콜라22의 토크에 대해 모두 반대했다.White_Croats#Consension_in_bibliography 한 달도 채 되지 않았다.또한, 나는 지난 몇 주 동안 양말 인형 계좌에 대해 두 건의 보고서를 제출했는데 둘 다 차단됐어.당신은 그들 중 한 명과 함께 미콜라22[95]를 상대로 편집전을 벌이면서 동시에 세르비아어로 된 자신의 토크 페이지에서 "새로운 승리"를 얻게 될 것이라고 주장하고 있었다[96].매일 터져나오는 수많은 사소한 발칸 분쟁은 개의치 않지만 일방적이지 않고 여러 번 가장 무거운 비난을 내세우는 사람들이 더 나쁜 행동에 연루되어 있다.---말레슈레이버 (대화) 19:57, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 만약 당신이 내가 가진 것을 읽을 기회가 있다면, 당신은 Malschreiber의 코멘트에 주의할 것이다.나는 모든 역겨운 연결고리를 가지고 있지만, 위키 가이드라인에 대한 기본적인 존경심을 가지고 있기 때문에 게시하지 않을 것이다.상대화를 시도하고 악마의 옹호자가 되려는 어떤 시도도 여기서 도움이 될 수 없다.일반적으로 엄지손가락으로 누구를 맞추는지 조심해라.사드키(말이 싸다) 10시 39분, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 미키 필리그란스키에게 일어난 일은 유감이야.그의 저술 중 일부는 우세한 반세르비아 정서는 말할 것도 없고 우월주의적이고 인종차별주의적인 것으로 비칠 수 있는 유피디아 포럼(다른 이름 아래)에서도 같은 편집자가 활동하고 있다는 점을 지적하지 않을 수 없다.나는 우리가 en에 대한 직접적인 정보를 링크하거나 줄 수 없다는 것을 알고 있다.위키, 하지만 이번 사건에서 지역사회의 합의가 뭔지는 잘 모르겠어!확실히 우리는 잠재적인 사생활 문제 때문에 그러한 사건들을 외면할 수 없는가?만약 이 의견이 적절하지 않다면, 나는 관리자에게 그것을 제거하도록 요청하겠다.사드키(말이 싸다) 00:47, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
설명 @미키 필리그란스키: "사적으로 나를 협박하고 내가 질리게 된 반세르비아 어젠다를 밀어붙이는 것은 정말 지나쳤다."
- 나는 살면서 그런 말을 한 적이 없고, 내 인생에서 누군가를 협박해서 그런 말을 한 적도 없고, 그 어디에도 증거가 없다.거짓말에 대해 나는 가장 엄격한 제재를 기대한다.어떤 것을 주장하면, 그 다음에는 그것을 증명해야 하고, 그것에 대한 증거가 없으며, 그것에 대한 어떠한 증거도 결코 없을 것이다.그러므로 당신은 제재로부터 자신을 구하기 위해 의도적으로 그리고 분명히 거짓말을 하고 있다.하지만 그것은 너에게 도움이 되지 않을 것이다.미콜라22 (대화) 07:37, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
@Doug Weller and Ymblanter: 제발, 위키피디아에 나쁜 의도를 가진 거짓 진술들이 인신공격 이상의 것이기 때문에 더 심한 제재를 위해 추가적으로 보고될 수 있는 곳이 있는가.고마워요.미콜라22 (대화) 07:53, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- 모든 오프위키 리얼 또는 괴롭힘의 사례는 ArbCom--Ymblanter (대화) 08:01, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[]에 의해 처리되어야 한다
사도 코멘트
나는 이것이 보도된 편집장을 압박하기 위해 만들어진 거짓 보도라고 지적하고 싶다. 그는 그러한 무례한 행동을 한다면 미콜라22와 같이 미콜라22를 보도하겠다고 약속했기 때문이다.PLAYPolicy는 계속된다.미키 필리그란스키 동료 편집장의 논평은 타당성이 있다.보고서를 작성하는 편집자는 항상 WP:체리픽킹 소스(점수를 증명할 만한 2등급 책을 무작위로 검색하는 것을 의미한다고 해도)는 시스템 게임과 마지막이지만 중요한 WP:BLUD를 모색한다.만약 당신이 [97]을 간단히 살펴보면, 당신은 문제의 편집자가 다른 편집자가 1RR을 가지고 있다는 것을 알고 24시간 동안 다른 편집자를 되돌리기를 기다리고 있다는 것을 목격하게 될 것이다.WP:BOOMERang은 내 책에 필요하다.고마워, 사드키(토크가 싸다) 00:41, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그의 1RR은 해제되었다 User_talk:El_C#Appeal_2.--Maleschreiber (대화) 03:46, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
사도코 편집장 인신공격
편집기 사용자:사드코는 ANI 페이지에서 "내 글 중 일부는 병든 지배적인 반세르비안 정서는 말할 것도 없고 우월주의적이고 인종차별주의적인 것으로 보일 수 있다"고 주장하며 나를 직접 공격한다."[98] 인신공격은 이번이 두 번째고 이번에는 거짓이라는 점에서 (더 이상 나를 허위로 고발하지 말라는 경고를 받았지만)(AE [99]로부터의 경고)그 외에도 그는 처음으로 나치가 나치에 대해 개인적으로 공격했는데, 그가 @K트리미991:토크 페이지 ˙ ("이것은 크로아티아에서 또 하나의 인기있는 이야기인데, 주로 우파 및 현대 우스타슈 서클이다."[100]이다.나는 당국이 WP를 위해 이번에는 반응할 것을 요청한다.인신공격 및 WP:ASPERSIONs and that time 편집자 사드코에게 제재가 가해졌다.고마워요.미콜라22 (대화) 05:13, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 그런 서클에 익숙하지 않은 편집자에게 한 나의 일반적인 논평(두 번째 논평)은 사실이며 그것은 어느 누구에게도 불리하지 않았다.반파시즘에 반대하는 것은 없으십니까?당신의 대의에 도움이 될 수 있다고 생각하는 사람들을 핑핑하는 것은 그다지 유용하지 않으며, 단지 더 많은 상대화가 이루어질 것이다.
- 나는 내 의견을 고수하고, 링크/디프가 준비되어 있고, 나와 다른 편집자들이 그 포럼들을 관찰하고 있다.그것은 아스퍼레이션이 아니라 사실이다, 그리고 나는 미키 편집장이 어떤 일을 겪었는지 상상만 할 수 있을 뿐이다.
- 당신이 보고서를 제출했다고 해서 모든 책임에서 자유롭다는 뜻은 아니다. 보고서가 만들어진 것이 "그가 나를 신고하기 전에 그에게 보고하겠다"는 식의 사고방식에 가까웠다.사드키(말이 싸다) 10시 45분, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[하라
- 명세서.@Doug Weller:내가 1RR 제한 규칙을 위반한 곳, 보여줘?나는 마지막 편집에서 그 규칙을 위반하지 않았다.내가 정확히 기억한다면 나는 어딘가에서 2RR을 사용했지만, 같은 편집에는 사용하지 않았다.RR를 사용할 수 있을까?내가 그 규칙을 어디서 위반했는지 증거를 기다리고 있어. 그럼 대답할게.고마워요.미콜라22 (대화) 11:03, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- "만약 그가 나를 상대로 "적대" (즉, 세르비아인)에 어떤 식으로든 참여한다면, 나는 의도적으로 그리고 즉시 (즉, 악의로) 그에 대한 어떤 기사나 토론에도 참여할 것이다."라고 이메일을 보내는 편집자 미키 필리그란스키와 이 정보에 대해서는 다음과 같이 말했다.평생 그에게 이메일을 보낸 적이 없다고 해도 과언이 아니다.증빙은 그의 이메일에 존재하지 않는 나의 이메일 주소와 나의 메세지 입니다.내가 편집한 모든 것은 요약 편집이 되어 있고, 나는 또한 그가 따르는 기사들을 따라다니며 나는 그것들을 자유롭게 편집할 수 있다.미콜라22 (대화) 13:40, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @WEBDUB: 내가 세르비아와 세르비아에 대해 어떻게 반대하는지 내 보고서가 올 때마다 말할 수는 없다.나는 편집자야, 세르비아와 관련된 기사들을 편집해.당신은 이 주장을 나에게 보고하고 당신의 동료 편집자들이 보도되기를 기다리지 말고 그 주장을 증명하라.몇 가지 위키백과 선택사항이 있으십니다.사드코 편집장이 이걸 시도했고 그는 거짓 고발을 한 것에 대해 제재를 받았다. 이제 네가 시도해보라.미콜라22 (대화) 14:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @WEBDUB: 이 편집자들이 제재를 받은 후에 당신은 이 주장을 가지고 나를 보고한다.내가 기사를 편집할 때 나는 너를 전혀 보지 못해, 아마 두어 번 정도.나는 이런 상황에서만 너의 비난이 보여.만약 당신이 무엇을 해야 하는지 알고 있는 문제가 있다면, 그것을 해라.미콜라22 (대화) 14:45, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @Maleschreiber:나는 8일 동안 2x2RR을 사용하지만, 첫 번째 2RR은 한 소스에서 순응으로 4개의 소스를 추가했기 때문이며, 이것은 (새로운 소스를 추가하는 것으로 편집하는 것으로 편집하는 것으로 편집하는 것으로 편집하는 사드코의 회귀를 따라갔지만, 나는 이 리턴이 2R로 계산되지 않을 것이라고 생각했다.이 되돌리기에 대한 나의 의도도 이 RR 규칙을 정확히 알지 못했기 때문에(이 규칙을 마지막으로 본 것은 7,8개월 전이었다.) 나쁜 믿음은 아니었다.미콜라22 (대화) 19:17, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @미콜라22:어디서 1RR을 부러뜨렸다고 했지?더그 웰러톡 09:20, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- @Doug Weller:내 1R이 문제(잘 이해가 안 간다)라고 생각하는데 내가 반달로 되돌리지 못했다면, 나는 편집 요약에서 모든 것을 설명하고 앞서 토크 페이지에 설명했다.내가 누군가의 편집 요약(프링 등 문제)을 존중한다면, 나는 왜 다른 누군가가 내 편집 요약과 설명을 토크 페이지의 편집 요약과 설명을 존중하지 않는지 모르겠다.미콜라22 (대화) 09:34, 2020년 10월 25일 (UTC)[
- @WEBDUB: 이 편집자들이 제재를 받은 후에 당신은 이 주장을 가지고 나를 보고한다.내가 기사를 편집할 때 나는 너를 전혀 보지 못해, 아마 두어 번 정도.나는 이런 상황에서만 너의 비난이 보여.만약 당신이 무엇을 해야 하는지 알고 있는 문제가 있다면, 그것을 해라.미콜라22 (대화) 14:45, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @WEBDUB: 내가 세르비아와 세르비아에 대해 어떻게 반대하는지 내 보고서가 올 때마다 말할 수는 없다.나는 편집자야, 세르비아와 관련된 기사들을 편집해.당신은 이 주장을 나에게 보고하고 당신의 동료 편집자들이 보도되기를 기다리지 말고 그 주장을 증명하라.몇 가지 위키백과 선택사항이 있으십니다.사드코 편집장이 이걸 시도했고 그는 거짓 고발을 한 것에 대해 제재를 받았다. 이제 네가 시도해보라.미콜라22 (대화) 14:19, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- "만약 그가 나를 상대로 "적대" (즉, 세르비아인)에 어떤 식으로든 참여한다면, 나는 의도적으로 그리고 즉시 (즉, 악의로) 그에 대한 어떤 기사나 토론에도 참여할 것이다."라고 이메일을 보내는 편집자 미키 필리그란스키와 이 정보에 대해서는 다음과 같이 말했다.평생 그에게 이메일을 보낸 적이 없다고 해도 과언이 아니다.증빙은 그의 이메일에 존재하지 않는 나의 이메일 주소와 나의 메세지 입니다.내가 편집한 모든 것은 요약 편집이 되어 있고, 나는 또한 그가 따르는 기사들을 따라다니며 나는 그것들을 자유롭게 편집할 수 있다.미콜라22 (대화) 13:40, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
언볼루션된 편집자의 주석
또는 이 경우, 권한이 없는 관리자.사용자:Mikola22는 올해 사용자:불과 8일 전에 항소를 허가한 El C.위의 내용에서 교훈을 얻지 못한 것으로 나타난다.더그 웰러가 10:49, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
인신공격 같은 것은 없는 것 같다.미키 필리그란스키는 발칸 주제에 대해 긴장과 양극화가 있는 기간 동안 가식적인 편집의 의혹에 대해 언급했다.미콜라22가 가장 치명적인 대량학살 사건 중 하나인 코소보 신화("Serbs"라는 용어는 "슬레이브"에서 유래했다는 변칙적 이론 포함), 세르비아 중세사, 코소보 마을의 세르비아 이름 제거, 등 민감한 주제에 대해 세르비아 관련 기사들을 실질적으로 독점적으로 기고하고 있는 것은 이미 눈에 띈다.니콜라 테슬라, 노박 조코비치 같은 세르비아의 가장 유명한 인물들뿐만 아니라.이와 같은 상황은 항상 WP로 이어질 수 있다.부메랑.--WEBDUB (대화) 14:03, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @미콜라22:물론 당신이 원하는 기사를 편집할 권리는 있지만, 아무도 그것에 대해 이의를 제기하지 않았다.그러나 누군가가 WP를 의심해도 놀라지 말라.건방지고, 모든 의견을 인신공격으로 해석하지 말라.특히 이미 사건 및 제재를 실시한 후.--WEBDUB (대화) 14:34, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- @Doug Weller:나는 대부분 미콜라22와 사드코와 관련된 사소한 편집-전쟁 도미노를 본다 - 둘 다 보통 2RR에 머무른다.우리는 편집전의 내용을 검토해야 한다.대화 중:부족_of_Montenegro#Stable_version, 미콜라22는 원천에 없는 것을 제거하고 있었고 사도코에게 뒤바뀌고 있었다.사드코가 멈추지 않았다면 그 변명이 계속적인 편집 전쟁을 할 수 있었을까?아니, 하지만 만약 편집자들이 입증 가능한 잘못된 편집을 하지 않도록 하기 위한 관리감독이 없다면, 좌절감은 억제될 수 있다.
- 나는 가능한 오프위키 통신에 대해 언급할 수 없다.그런 상황에는 ArbCom이 있다.나는 위키피디아가 결국 익명성이 없는 편집의 모델로 옮겨갈 것이고 그러면 모든 종류의 문제가 중단될 것이라고 생각한다.미콜라22-미키 필리그란스키가 서로 오프위키(off-wiki)라고 한 말이 무엇이든 간에, 인신공격/WP:"반-세르비아 어젠다" 비난에서 "차우비니즘"으로 이어지는 이 보고서의 논평 부분에서 미콜라22에 대한 ASPERVersion은 미콜라22가 과거 코소보 정부가 미콜라22를 지불했다고 비난한 적이 있는 (MF 제외) sr wiki의 편집자들과의 논쟁의 맥락에서 다음과 같이 말했다.User_talk:EdJohnston/Archive_48#Payed_advocacy_accusations.그런 상황이 양쪽에서 수시로 악화되고 폭발할 수 있는 조건은 발칸 토픽 영역에 관리감독이 없다는 사실과 관계가 있다.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:39, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 나는 작년에 위키피디아 편집이 완전히 익명으로 되어 있지 않기 때문에 실생활에서 정말 심각한 문제를 겪었다.나는 그들의 실명을 공개하라고 어떤 것도 추천하지 않을 것이다.--Ymblanter (대화) 18:45, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)
- 나도 한 번 해봤는데 나중에 편집 내용을 삭제해 달라고 관리자에게 요청해야 했어.나는 위키피디아에 있는 많은 편집자들이 익명의 가면을 쓰고 행동하지 않는다면 그렇게 행동하지 않을 것이라고 생각한다.편집 환경은 훨씬 더 시민적이고 사람들은 그들의 편집에 책임을 질 것이다.반면, 적극적인 편집자들은 조직화된 그룹, 회사, 동료, 고용주 등에 의해 오프위키 압력을 받을 수 있다.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:13, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)
- 나는 작년에 위키피디아 편집이 완전히 익명으로 되어 있지 않기 때문에 실생활에서 정말 심각한 문제를 겪었다.나는 그들의 실명을 공개하라고 어떤 것도 추천하지 않을 것이다.--Ymblanter (대화) 18:45, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)
쓰시마의 귀신
| 보고된 편집자가 문제 없이 콘텐츠 분쟁이 발생한 것으로 파악된 보고서.필요한 경우 RfC로 해결하십시오.조누니크 (대화) 08:26, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
쓰시마 고스트(토크 히지리88(토크 히스토리 보호 링크 삭제 로그 보기)에서 히지리88(토크 · 기여)과 나는 쓰시마어(관련 디프: [101][102][103][104][106][107])의 발음의 표기법을 포함할 것인지에 대해 의견이 분분했다.
여기서 토론이 이어졌다.객관적으로 볼 수 없을 것 같아 요약하려고도 하지 않을 테니, 끼어들기 전에 전체 실(퍼마)을 읽어주길 바란다. 길지 않다.
그 사건 자체는 거의 틀림없이 큰 문제가 아니며(그리고 나는 잘못이 없다) 만일 그것이 사실상 다른 사용자였다면 나는 그냥 넘어갔을 것이다.그러나 히지리88이 전체적으로 연대 논의를 꺼리는 것을 보고, 상대방에게 같은 것을 고발하면서(re: /iː/ vs /i/, YouGlish) 앞으로 가져온 점을 인정하지 않는 것을 반복하고, 상대방에게 양보하는 면에서도 불신임을 고발하는 것을 보고, 무기한 블록이 해제된 지 한 달이 조금 넘자 나는 생각했다.관리자의 주의를 끄는 것이 중요하다.나독 (대화) 16:44, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 명백한 선거운동을 지적하는 것이 나쁜 믿음이라고 생각하지 않는다.히지리88(말·출연자)의 전말을 읽고 난 후, 기사에 독창적인 연구를 밀어넣으려다가 논쟁에서 지고 있을 때 탐문수사를 하는 이용자에 대해 상당히 참을성 있어 보였다.AbearFrancis (대화) 18:54, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 선거 유세에서 지적된 것은 타당했다, 나는 그것을 인정한다.내가 문제가 되는 것은 내가 의도적으로 정보를 누락시켰다는 그의 암시인데, 사실 내가 누락시켰다고 주장하는 그 정보가 처음부터 내 입장을 위한 하나의 요소로서 언급해 왔던 것이었다.
정직한 실수일 수도 있지만, IMHO는 그가 단지 내용 논쟁에 관여하는 방식과 섹션제목
에 부정확한(불가능!)
같은 단어들이 결합되어있어서, 당신
은 내요점을 하나도 언급하지 않고 그냥
지나치도록말할
것인가?
그리고명백히 우스꽝스러운
것은 정직하고 생산적인 토론과 상호작용을 할 여지를 거의 남겨두지 않는다.(오션의 경우는 그렇지 않았다) 지치는 그와 함께.예를 들어, 실속에서의 호크.나독(토크) 20:02, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC) 정직한 실수일 수 있으니, 그렇다고 가정해 볼까. 나독 (대화) 21:22, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[- 편집자들이 극도의 민감성을 인지된 범죄의 원인으로 브랜드화할 수 있는 한계를 정의하는 규칙이 있어야 한다.백과사전은 어른들이 쓴 것인데, 가급적이면 강한 의견의 주고받는 것을 다루는 약간의 미니멀한 능력을 가지고 있다.개인 고고학에 관여할 방법을 찾지 못하는 편집자들에게는 서투른 형식이고, 상대 편집자가 한때 금지되었던 몇 가지 기준점을 포착하고, 그 금지령을 부활시키기 위해 tiff를 사용함으로써 고드름의 매듭을 끊기 위해 그것을 악용하는 것이다.인용된 것과 같은 실들은 내가 본 대부분의 것에 비해 작은 변화들이다.나는 누구도, 확실히 일반 독자는 아니지만, 뛰어난 음운학자는 이러한 기록들을 이해하고, 그러한 음탕한 미니마에 대한 편협한 의견 불일치는 시간낭비라고 생각하지 않는다.니시다니 (토크)20:13, 2020년 10월 23일 (UTC)[
- 선거 유세에서 지적된 것은 타당했다, 나는 그것을 인정한다.내가 문제가 되는 것은 내가 의도적으로 정보를 누락시켰다는 그의 암시인데, 사실 내가 누락시켰다고 주장하는 그 정보가 처음부터 내 입장을 위한 하나의 요소로서 언급해 왔던 것이었다.
- 나는 토크에서 토론을 대충 훑어보았다.쓰시마의 유령 그리고 CITY의 문제는 아무것도 없다.제기된 문제를 처리하거나 문제를 해결하십시오.조누니크 (대화) 06:36, 2020년 10월 24일 (UTC)[
- 여기에는 위반 사항이 없고, 이것은 일상적인 내용 문제인데, 지금까지 토크 페이지에서 논의된 내용은 상당히 격의 없이 진행되었다.이 스레드는 닫아야 하며, 관련된 편집자들이 합의된 합의에 도달하지 못할 경우 WP를 만드십시오.사람들이 투표할 수 있는 RFC.소프트라벤더 (대화) 07:39, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
저작권 위반 및 인신공격
위키백과에서 내 보고서를 참조하십시오.Copyright_problems/2020 10월 25일.
Phule Lulu가 WP를 위반함:카피비오는 여러 번의 경고에도 불구하고[108][109] 지금 나를 공공 기물 파손 혐의로 고발하고 있다.[110][111]
적어도 3명의 편집자가 그를 돌려 보냈지만 그는 요점을 이해하지 못하고 있다.이것은 확실히 역량의 문제다.웨어론 (토크) 02:36, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[
- 웨어런은 저작권 침해의 구실(본래 2016년 8월 나[나]가 아닌 다른 편집자가 이 기사에 추가한 archive.org의 발췌문)을 빌미로 페이지의 인용된 인용문 대부분을 삭제함으로써 억압받는 사람들의 곤경을 오보하면서 주제에 대한 주요주의적 관점을 그리고 있다.다른 편집자가 archive.org에서 인용한 내용이 저작권 침해인지 아닌지를 결정하기 위해 관리자에게 미루는 동안, 관리자에게 참조의 질과 함께 완전한 형태로 샴부카 페이지의 최근 편집된 내용을 살펴보도록 요청하고 싶다. --Phule lulu (talk) 03:26, 26 Oc.2020년(UTC)까지[하라
@Phule lulu:저작권 위반 페이지에 등재하는 요점은 (꼭 관리자가 아닌) 다른 편집자가 문제가 있는지 확인하고 확인할 수 있도록 하는 것이다.누군가가 문제가 없음을 확인할 때까지, 당신은 누군가의 저작권을 침해할 수 있는 내용으로 되돌아가서는 안 된다.인신공격으로 간주할 수 있도록 '프리트넥스트'라는 증거를 전혀 제시하지 않으셨습니다.
카피비오 페이지에 대한 당신의 논평은 거기서 언급된 바와 같이, 복제된 내용이 원작의 작품이 아니라 그 작품의 인간 번역과 같은 창의적인 변종이라면, 작품이 얼마나 오래된 것인지는 중요하지 않다.그 경우 변종의 저작권 상태가 중요하다.또한 "가능하다"는 것은 우리가 저작권을 다루는 방식이 아니다.너는 그것이 아닌 충분한 증거가 필요하다.1957년작의 경우, 적어도 미국에서 저작권 보호와 관련하여 저작권 고지의 부족은 관련될 수 있는데, 이는 아마도 이 문제에 관한 전부일 것이다.위키백과그러나 이것은 좀 더 박식한 사람들이 확인해야 할 사항이고 당신의 논평은 이것이 당신에게 적용되지 않는다는 것을 암시한다.그리고 저작권 위반 또는 (충분히) 저작권 위반의 혐의를 없애는 것은 예외 없이 정책에 의해 전적으로 정당화된다.일반적으로 저작권 침해가 언제 추가되었는지는 중요하지 않다.저작권이 있는 콘텐츠가 어디에서 왔는지는 일반적으로 중요하지 않다.이러한 사항들이 중요한 유일한 경우는, 예를 들어, 본문이 공개 도메인에 있거나 CC BY-SA 3.0 호환 라이센스에 따라 공개되거나 처음부터 위키피디아에서 나온 경우일 뿐이다.(저작권 위반이 추가된 시기를 알아내는 것도 해당 기사가 공백이 아닌 추가되기 전의 버전으로 되돌아갈 수 있도록 할 수 있다.)
간단히 말해, 내가 본 것은 archive.org에 있는 1957년 책이다. 그래서 솔직히 archive.org과 "구식"은 관련이 없어 보인다.저작권 위반을 추가한 사람이라면 2016년에 추가되었다고 자랑하는 것은 당신의 소송에 도움이 되지 않는다.저작권 위반 사항 추가는 지금 당장 중지하고, 저작권 위반 사항을 삭제하는 데 도움을 주셔야 하는데, 저작권 위반 사항을 추가하신 후 시간이 지나면 불행히도 지저분할 것 같으십니다.저작권을 이해하지 못하는 곳에서는 사람들이 말하는 것을 귀담아 들을 필요가 있다.멈추지 않으면 막힌다.'억압받는 자의 평판'을 반영해 기사를 작성하려면 다른 사람이 쓴 것을 단순히 베끼기보다는 스스로 괜찮은 내용을 쓰는 것이 필요하다.다른 편집자들이 당신이 만든 문제를 해결하는 데 더 많은 시간을 할애할수록, 그 누구도 그런 내용을 쓸 시간이 없을 것이다.
이멜다 마르코스의 미개한 행동과 참고자료 삭제
| Jtbobwaysf는 Imelda Marcos에서 무기한 금지된 주제다.이 실들이 한두 달 동안 열려 있는 상태로 유지되고 난 후, 어떤 관리자도 이를 다루고 싶어하지 않기 때문에, 아마도 편집자들은 이러한 "복수의 선택" 제재를 하는 것을 멈출 것이다.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 09:59, 2020년 10월 26일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
안녕
사용자:jtbobwaysf가 이멜다 마르코스 페이지에서 합의를 모색하기도 전에 편집자들을 계속 괴롭히고 그의 의지를 강요하는 것을 막기 위한 조치를 요청할 수 있을까?편집자는 BLP는 단지 이멜다 마르코스에 대해 부정적인 말을 해서는 안 된다는 것을 의미한다고 믿는 것 같다.이러한 믿음을 분명히 추구하면서, 편집자는 일관되게 다음과 같이 말했다.
- 1. 합의나 경고 없이 인용문을 삭제하고, 이멜다 마르코스에 대해 부정적인 말을 하는 출처를 "편향된" 것으로 낙인찍고, 합의 없이 삭제하며, 기사의 다른 곳에서 인용문을 어겼는지 여부를 확인하는데 귀찮게 하지 않는다.사실 '검증 실패'라는 꼬리표도 없이 그렇게 빠른 속도로 수많은 참고문헌을 삭제했기 때문에 어떤 출처가 실제로 관련됐는지 검증이 사실상 불가능해졌다.
- a) 극단적인 경우에는 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Imelda_Marcos을 참조하십시오.그는 필리핀 대법원을 포함한 필리핀 법원을 "정치적 동기가 있는 법원"이라고 불렀다.이는 WP:Primary의 경우가 아니라는 점에 유의하십시오. 문제의 출처에는 필리핀과 국제 주요 뉴스 매체가 다수 포함되어 있었다.
- b) 그는 필리핀 뉴스 웹사이트 래플러에 대한 공격에 일부 예외를 제외하고는 대체로 신뢰할 수 있다는 기존 위키 합의에도 불구하고 동참한 것으로 보인다.
- c) 또 다른 유머러스한 예로, 그는 필리핀에서 가장 존경받는 브로드시트 중 하나인 필리핀 스타를 단순한 "생활형 출판물"이라고 속였다.
- 2. 다른 편집자의 끈질긴 요청에도 불구하고 삭제 내용을 설명하는 것을 거절함.대신 "junk", "drible", "nonsense"와 같은 경멸적인 표현이나 "not needs"와 같은 모호한 해고를 제공하는 것(토크 페이지와 그의 편집된 설명의 리뷰는 이것을 보여줄 것이다.)
- 3. 법원이 확립한 "벌써 얻은 부"와 같이 잘 가려진 주제를 배제하기 위해 일방적으로 행동했다(역사를 편집하여 그가 정당화했다). 토크:이멜다_마르코스#다른 편집자들이 이것이 WP를 만들 것이라고 경고했음에도 불구하고, 잘못된 판단은 다음과 같다.거짓 균형.
- 4. WP:시빌리티를 위반하여 으스대고 판단적이며 경멸하는 언어를 사용하여 다른 편집자를 경멸로 취급했다(토크: 참조).이멜다_마르코스#위키백과:그가 위키백과의 다섯 가지 기둥 중 하나를 위반했다는 이유로 불려온 사실을 무시한 시민성(Civility)은 그를 불러낼 때 wp:블러지온(bluggeon)을 울리고 덜 공격적인 랭귀지를 사용하지 않으려 했다.
- 5. (분명히) "검증요청" 정리 태그도 사용하지 않고 실제로 읽어보지 않고 "검증 실패"를 했다는 인용문을 삭제했다.
- 6. 자신의 토크 페이지에서 이멜다 마르코스뿐만 아니라, 여기 편집에서 볼 수 있는 수많은 다른 문제에 대한 해결되지 않은 경고 삭제 [[113]
물론, 그 페이지는 계속 작업이 필요하다. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Imelda_Marcos, FYI에서 BLPN 토론이 있다.)그러나 그 미개한 행동은 합의의 차분한 과정을 추구할 수 없게 만들었다.
고마워! - 치에하루마치(토크) 07:50, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[하라
- 문제의 기사에서 검증할 수 없는('rare books'를 인용으로 사용)을 추가하고(래플러와 같은) 서툴게 인용된 콘텐츠(blogs)를 BLP에 앵커(기사는 수십억 달러 가치)하는 서커스가 벌어지고 있다(최근 RS에서 기사의 주제가 2천만 달러 가치라고 진술한 것은 아니다!이 기사는 WP를 끌어들이는 것 같은 논란의 여지가 있는 주제에 관한 것이다.RGW 및 WP에 큰 문제가 있음:토오무치. 아마 여기 ANI의 치에하라치(Chieharumachi)가 쓴 이 게시물은 (그의 목적이 의심스럽지만) 그 기사에 더 많은 무표정한 눈초리로 귀결될 것이다.고마워!Jtbobwaysf (대화) 08:35, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- Jtbobwaysf 그 책들은 "검증할 수 없다"는 것이 아니다.복사본에 액세스하여 검증하는 노력을 하고 싶지는 않지만, 이러한 복사본은 사용할 수 있다.WP:V에 따르면: "신뢰할 수 있는 출처는 접근이 어렵거나 비용이 많이 든다고 해서 거부해서는 안 된다."그 중 하나는 리카르도 마나팟의 '남들보다 더 똑똑하다'인데, 한 달여 전만 해도 실물책이 불편하면 전자책을 구입할 수 있고, 바니 워프의 '부패의 지역 핸드북'은 2018년에 비교적 최근에 인쇄된 바 있다.인쇄 및 전자책 버전.여기서 우려되는 것은 이 책들을 '검증 실패'라는 거짓과 부정한 꼬리표를 달았을 때 읽지도 않았고, 읽지 않은 인용문 3장뿐 아니라 내용 한 부분을 삭제해 페이지의 여러 인용문도 깼다는 점이다.jtbobwaysf가 페이지에서 그렇게 한 것은 그뿐만이 아니었다.그는 또한 페이지의 인용 링크를 여러 개 깨트린 블라이브러리그래픽 인용문 전체를 삭제했다.토크 페이지에 공감대를 구하지 않고 인용문과 내용을 삭제한 뒤 삭제한 내용을 복원하는 편집 내용을 되돌리는 방식으로 전쟁을 편집한 뒤 자신이 부당하게 삭제했을 수 있는 내용을 복원한 사람에게 토크 페이지에서 공감대를 구해야 한다는 부담을 지우는 반복적인 괴롭힘 패턴을 정리한 것이다.불공평한 불이익으로 콘텐츠를 저장한다.게다가 그는 래플러와 베라 파일의 인용문을 대량 삭제하면서 래플러는 단지 "블로그"일 뿐이라고 주장했는데, 래플러는 평판이 좋은 뉴스 조직이고 WP를 받아들일 수 있을 때:위키피디아의 의견 일치에 따른 RS는 Jtbobwaysf 그 자신이 여기에 있다.이는 jtbobwaysf가 정당한 이유 없이 인용문을 삭제해 온 또 다른 패턴(예: CNN 인용문 "말도 안 되는 소리")을 간략히 설명하며, 시간이 지나면서 (허용된 RS에서) BLP 주제 오류에 대한 인용 증거를 제거함으로써 기사가 서서히 흐려지고 있다.그는 또한 POV-pushing과 RGW의 다른 편집자들을 고발하는데, 다른 편집자들은 단지 그 주제에 대해 전세계 대중들이 일반적으로 받아들여지는 것을 문서화하고 있다(예를 들어 정부의 가장 큰 강도로 유명한 기네스 세계 기록 보유자로 유명함). 그리고 수십 년 동안 문서화 되어왔다...(@Seav: 왜 그것이 RGW가 아닌지에 대한 BLP 게시판에서 그것을 잘 개략적으로 설명한다.)
- 지금도 jtbobwaysf는 회개하지 않고 래플러를 RS가 아닌 '블로그'로 치부하고 있는데, 이는 포인터 국제 팩트체크 네트워크 서명자라는 엄격한 요건을 통과했고 페이스북이 필리핀에서 팩트체커로 인증한 단 3개 기관 중 하나(이상 포함)인 평판이 좋은 뉴스 조직이다.Vera Files와 Agence France-Presse.Jtbobwaysf는 또한 최근 RS가 기사 제목이 2천만 달러의 가치밖에 되지 않는다고 말한 것에 대해 틀렸다. 그 금액은 이멜다 마르코스가 자진 신고한 순자산이었다. RS jtbobways는 그 제목이 "수십억을 훔쳤을 것 같다"고 말하고 있다.이 기사의 편집은 또한 피험자의 순자산 5b+가 1986년에 있었고 당시 뉴욕 타임즈와 같은 RS에 의해 지원되고 있다는 자격을 얻는다.어쨌든 요점은 jtbobwaysf는 이멜다 마르코스 기사에서 매우 문제가 많은 편집자였고 편집에 있어서 상당히 부정직한 사람이었으며, 가장 심각한 것은 문제의 인용문을 읽고 검증조차 하지 않았을 때 "검증 실패"라고 주장하는 내용과 인용문을 삭제하는 것이며, 그러한 행동은 그 진실성에 상당히 지장을 준다.위키백과 프로젝트 -목표404 (대화) 09:35, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 또한 이멜다 마르코스 기사에 실린 Jtbobwaysf의 편집과 행동을 매우 파괴적이라고 생각한다는 점에서 말하고 싶다.위의 답변에서, 그는 다시 위키피디아의 정책과 지침에 따라 명백하게 사실이 아니거나 그렇지 않은 주장을 반복한다. (1)
"래어 북"
은 WP:V: "접근하기 어렵거나 비용이 많이 든다고 해서 신뢰할 수 있는 소스를 거부하지 말라." (2)"래플러"
와 같은 블로그는명백히
사실이 아니며, l.WP에 대한 옹 토론:RSN은 이미 래플러가 믿을 만한 출처라고 결론지었다.Jtbobwaysf가 토론 없이 일방적으로 모든 래플러 인용문을 삭제한 것은 솔직히 대단히 파괴적이다. (3) 기사 제목이WP를 끌어들인다는
그의 주장은 다음과 같다.
RGW
는 전혀 적용되지 않는다: WP:RGW는 위키피디아를 십자군원정을 시작하기 위한 플랫폼으로 사용하지 않는 것에 관한 것이지만, 이멜다에 대한 십자군원정은 이미 수십 년 동안 진행되어 왔고 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에 광범위한 문서를 가지고 있다. 이 기사는 단지 현재 진행 중인 상황을 반영하고 있을 뿐이며 따라서 WP:RGW는 적용되지 않는다.—seav (대화) 13:59, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[- RSN에서는 3가지 래플러 토론이 있다.당신이 주목하는 한 사람은, 편리하게도, 당신과 이 논쟁에 관련된 다른 편집자들 또한 유지하기로 투표했다.필리핀 장르 편집자들이 이런 소스를 좋아하나?두 번째 RSN과 세 번째 RSN은 덜 설득력 있어 보인다.모든 것이 BLP에 사용되기에 꽤 의심스러워 보인다.나는 너희들이 POV를 이 ANI로 옮기게 되어 기쁘다. ANI에 더욱 빛을 발하고 있기 때문이다.이것은 우리가 AP2에 있는 것처럼 필리핀 정치 장르 GS가 필요해 보인다.아퀴리온은 "모든 것이 사용자가 제출한 기사들로 보이며 (NSFW 기사를 전혀 제출하지 않는 것 같은 것에 대한 그들의 사용 용어는) 실제적인 편집 통제력을 전혀 발휘하지 않고 리뷰도 없이 즉각적으로 실행된다는 생각이 들게 한다"고 말했다.이것은 RGW 서커스에 의해 밀리고 있는 정크 소싱이다.RGW가 이미 주류에서 진행되고 있다고 정당화시키는 것은 웃기는 일이다(Rappler와 같은 '주류' 소스를 사용하는 것을 옹호하는 것이다.정말 블로그가 RS라고?위의 블로그도 마찬가지인가?또한 RS?lol Jtbobwaysf (대화) 15:52, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 상황을 역전시키고 Jtbobwaysf에게 우리가 무엇을 사용해야 한다고 생각하는 필리핀 정보원을 물어보고 싶다.래플러는 대체로 믿을 만한 사람인데, 내가 쓴 글의 출처로서 그들의 기사를 사용했지만, 외국인을 애호하는 것은 우리가 어떤 출처를 사용해야 하는지, 우리가 실제로 쓸 때 어떤 자료를 사용해야 하는지 모른다는 것을 암시하는 것 같다.만약 당신이 래플러의 IFCN 참여가 무뚝뚝하다고 생각하지 않는다면, 단지 그 사이트가 블로그 구성요소를 가지고 있다는 이유만으로?버즈피드뉴스가 버즈피드의 오프슈트라고 해서 믿을 수 없다고 말하는 사람은 아무도 없지 않은가?--스카이(talk) 하버 17:27, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- Echoing Object404, Jtbobwaysf는 RSN에서 Rappler에 관한 논의의 연대기를 잘못 표현하고 있다. "
제2 RSN과 제3 RSN"
은 이전의 논의들(2015년과 2016년 각각)이 거의 어떤 종류의 합의를 이끌어 낸 토론이었다는 사실을 가장 최근의 것으로 간주하고 있다.내가 연결한 2018년 토론은 참가자가 더 많았고, 심지어 공감대를 평가하기 위한 여론조사까지 나와 래플러의 뉴스 기사는 확실히 믿을 만한 출처라는 것이 정설이다.—seav (대화) 18:13, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[- 스카이 하버(토크·컨설팅)는 현재 RS가 무엇인지 이해하기 위해 필리핀 사람이 되어야 한다고 제안하고 있으며, 외국인들은 지원할 필요가 없다.다섯 개의 기둥 중 이 부분이 어느 부분인가?그리고 버즈피드, WP:OSE...래플러, 버즈피드, Verafiles 등은 모두 WP:전기충전된 상태Jtbobwaysf (대화) 18:49, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- 나는 아무것도 제안하는 것이 아니다; 당신이 우리가 필리핀에서 믿을 수 있는 출처가 될 것으로 알고 있는 것은 "객관적인" 외국인이라는 단일한 판단에 의해 제안하는 것이다. 왜냐하면 당신은 그들이 아니라고 말했기 때문에 신뢰하지 않는다. 비록 의견의 일치가 명백하게 시사하더라도 말이다.래플러와 베라 파일 모두 필리핀의 존경받는 언론인들이 만든 것인데, 그 중 채 호피냐, 글렌다 글로리아, 마리아 레사 같은 사람들은 언론인으로서 오랜 역사를 가지고 있음에도 불구하고 그저 "블로그인"일 뿐이라고 주장하고 있다.블로그는 그저 원하는 대로 내뱉을 수 있다; 반면에 래플러와 베라 파일 둘 다 그들이 지켜야 할 윤리강령을 가지고 있다.달리 (그리고 여기 있는 다른 사람들과 마찬가지로) 증명해 주지 않는 한, 나는 그 두 출처가 단순히 사용자 생성이라고 해서 믿을 수 없다는 것을 조금도 확신할 수 없다. 다만, 그렇지 않다는 것이 꽤 확실할 때. --Sky Harbor 19:19, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- 너(Jtbobwaysf)는 정말로 더 나은 독해력이 필요하다.나는 분명히 버즈피드가 인용에 이용되지 않는다는 것에 동의하지만, 스카이 하버가 이미 언급했고 버즈피드와 완전히 별개의 (그러나 관련) 웹사이트인 버즈피드 뉴스는 확실히 믿을 만한 뉴스 출처다: 그것은 여러 저널리즘 상을 수상했고 퓰리처상 후보까지 지명되었다: [116][117].래플러와 베라파일의 경우, 다른 편집자들은 이 두 뉴스 조직이 일반적으로 신뢰할 수 있다는 수많은 링크(여기에 몇 가지 더 있다: [118][119][120][121][122][124][124][126][127][128])])를 제공함으로써 당신에게 반복적으로 보여주었다.너는 너의 의견에 대한 어떤 증거도 제시하지 않고 계속해서 반대 의견을 주장한다.—seav (대화) 05:28, 2020년 9월 24일 (UTC)[
- 스카이 하버(토크·컨설팅)는 현재 RS가 무엇인지 이해하기 위해 필리핀 사람이 되어야 한다고 제안하고 있으며, 외국인들은 지원할 필요가 없다.다섯 개의 기둥 중 이 부분이 어느 부분인가?그리고 버즈피드, WP:OSE...래플러, 버즈피드, Verafiles 등은 모두 WP:전기충전된 상태Jtbobwaysf (대화) 18:49, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
- RSN에서는 3가지 래플러 토론이 있다.당신이 주목하는 한 사람은, 편리하게도, 당신과 이 논쟁에 관련된 다른 편집자들 또한 유지하기로 투표했다.필리핀 장르 편집자들이 이런 소스를 좋아하나?두 번째 RSN과 세 번째 RSN은 덜 설득력 있어 보인다.모든 것이 BLP에 사용되기에 꽤 의심스러워 보인다.나는 너희들이 POV를 이 ANI로 옮기게 되어 기쁘다. ANI에 더욱 빛을 발하고 있기 때문이다.이것은 우리가 AP2에 있는 것처럼 필리핀 정치 장르 GS가 필요해 보인다.아퀴리온은 "모든 것이 사용자가 제출한 기사들로 보이며 (NSFW 기사를 전혀 제출하지 않는 것 같은 것에 대한 그들의 사용 용어는) 실제적인 편집 통제력을 전혀 발휘하지 않고 리뷰도 없이 즉각적으로 실행된다는 생각이 들게 한다"고 말했다.이것은 RGW 서커스에 의해 밀리고 있는 정크 소싱이다.RGW가 이미 주류에서 진행되고 있다고 정당화시키는 것은 웃기는 일이다(Rappler와 같은 '주류' 소스를 사용하는 것을 옹호하는 것이다.정말 블로그가 RS라고?위의 블로그도 마찬가지인가?또한 RS?lol Jtbobwaysf (대화) 15:52, 2020년 9월 23일 (UTC)[
@Jtbobwaysf: 이제 이멜다 마르코스 기사의 전쟁 편집도 시작되어 정당한 이유 없이 유효한 외부 링크를 끊임없이 제거하였다.주장 1) 위키백과("외부 링크 없음"), 2) archive.org 링크를 사용했다고 해서 가식적인 편집에 대한 비난(현재 사이트가 다운된 유효한 이유) -객체404 (토크) 11:21, 2020년 9월 27일 (UTC)[
- 이 난장판에 휘말리고 싶지는 않지만, User:Jtbobwaysf는 편집 요약 "실패한 검증"[129]을 사용하여 소싱된 콘텐츠를 삭제한 이유를 설명했는데, 콘텐츠가 태그된 소스[130]를 실제로 모두 체크 아웃하지 않았거나 전혀 체크 아웃하지 않은 것으로 확인됨[130]?여기에는 2018년도부터 페이지 번호[131]가 포함된 것으로 보인다.이것은 만약 그것이 계속된다면 무기한 차단이 보장될 수 있는 심각한 문제 IMO이다.정보원이 말하지 않을 때 말하는 것보다 낫지 않다.두 경우 모두 출처에 있는 내용을 잘못 전달하고 있으며, 그 이후 많은 시간 동안 WP:편집자들이 말하는 출처에 대한 AGF는 큰 문제를 일으킬 수 있다.특히 Jtbobwaysf에 따르면, 출처가 드물기 때문에, 많은 사람들이 접속할 수 없을 것이라고 한다.내가 다른 곳에서 언급했듯이, 만약 Jtbobwaysf가 출처가 BLP에 적합하지 않거나 소수 의견을 대표하거나 또는 다른 문제가 있다고 우려했다면, 그들은 사람들이 출처가 인용된 주장을 지지하지 않는다고 오해하지 않고 이 문제를 제기할 수 있었을 것이다.제 말은, 만약 Jtbobwaysf가 출처가 그 주장을 뒷받침하는 것을 의심하는 이유가 있거나 페이지 번호의 부족으로 인해 검증이 매우 힘들다고 느낀다면, 나는 이것이 명확해질 때까지 제거를 지지할 수도 있다.그러나 다시 말하지만, 이것은 왜 변화가 일어나고 있는지를 정확하게 반영하는 편집 요약과 아마도 상황을 설명하는 토크 페이지 주석을 필요로 했다.물론 우리 모두는 실수를 하지만, 그것은 AFAICT, Jtbobwaysf가 이 실을 포함해 [132]에 대한 해명을 요구하는 어떤 요청도 집요하게 무시한 것에 관한 것이다.닐 아인 (대화) 14:33, 2020년 9월 27일 (UTC)[
- jtbobwaysf는 자신이 제거한 인용 자료집은 드물고, 최근 인쇄물을 갖고 있어 허위일 때 출처로 삭제하기 위한 구실로 절판됐다고 주장하고 있다.일부는 2020년에 재인쇄된 리카르도 마나파트(Ricardo Manapat)에 의해 남들보다 더 똑똑하며, 인쇄물 및 바니 워프(2018)에 의한 부패의 지형에 관한 전자책과 핸드북으로도 제공되며, 또한 인쇄물 및 전자책으로도 이용 가능하다.책이 희귀하고 절판되었다고 해도 그의 삭제는 WP:검증가능성을 위반한다.#접근성 : "접근하기 어렵거나 비용이 많이 든다는 이유만으로 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 거부해서는 안 된다."여기서 완전히 잘못된 것은 그가 검증을 하지 않았을 때 그들이 검증에 실패했다고 주장하고, 자신의 이성에 대해 매우 부정직했다고 주장하는 것이다.검증에 실패했다고 주장하기 전에 출처를 읽었느냐고 물었을 때, 그는 질문을 여러 번 피했고, 결국 이 토크 페이지 실에서 치에하라치에게 스캔을 이메일로 보내달라고 했을 때 그러지 않았다는 것이 들통났다.이는 이제 굿 페이스 편집과는 거리가 멀고, 위키백과 규정 위반이라는 핑계로 내용을 삭제해 왔기 때문에 기사를 파괴하는 것보다 못하다.그가 WP 규정을 어겼을 것으로 추정되는 약자 형태로 WP 규정을 어겨왔기 때문에 위키백과의 경험 부족도 용서하지 않는다.또한, 그는 여러 번 해냈다: [133][134][135].더욱이 그는 WP 컨센서스가 RS로 결정한 후(래플러) 더 유효한 인용구를 삭제하면서 자신이 연계한 토론에서 RS가 아니라고 결론내렸다고 주장했다.이것은 그가 반복해 온 계속되는 패턴이고 그는 뉘우치지 않았다.이런 문제들이 모두 제기됐음에도 불구하고 그는 최근 편집한 내용들(위 참조)에서 정당한 이유 없이 삭제 작업을 계속하고 있다.관리자들이 그의 행동을 살펴보고 적절한 조치를 취할 수 있다면 좋을 것이다. -목표404 (대화) 17:27, 2020년 9월 27 (UTC)[
- @닐 아인:왜 오브젝트404에 의해 이 토론에 ping을 받았습니까?페이지 번호가 있는 소스를 삭제했는가?고마워!Jtbobwaysf (대화) 19:11, 2020년 9월 27일 (UTC)[
- @Jtbobwaysf:내가 BLPN에서 코멘트를 했기 때문에 그런 것 같아.어쨌든, 나는 ping을 본 적이 없고 나의 알림 기록에 나타나지 않기 때문에 ping이 효과가 없었다고 생각한다(나는 거의 제거하지 않는다).내가 여기 BLPN에서 토론이 있다는 댓글을 보고 왔기 때문에 여기 온 건데, 나는 내 걱정이 어디선가 해결되기를 기다리고 있었는데, 그들은 이 토론에 참여하기로 그렇게 결정되지 않았어.나는 네가 여전히 우려의 요점을 말하는 것을 거부하고 있다는 것을 안다.나는 이미 당신이 내용을 삭제한 [136] 위의 diff에 연결했다.당신이 그것에 대해 아무 말도 하지 않겠다고 끈질기게 거절한 것으로 보아 당신이 실제로 어떤 출처도 확인하지 않은 것이 분명해 보인다.나는 내가 이 요청을 잘못 읽었다는 것을 인정한다[137], 페이지 스캔은 워프(페이지 번호가 있는)가 아니라 PCGG@30(페이지 번호가 없는)에 관한 것이었다.하지만 나는 네가 최근에 한 코멘트에서 워프도 체크아웃하지 않았다고 추측할 수 있다. 왜냐하면 네가 워프도 체크아웃했고 그것이 없다는 것을 알았다면 어떤 출처를 물어볼 필요가 없기 때문이다.그리고 솔직히 페이지 번호 문제는 사소한 점일 뿐이다.어떤 면에서는 페이지 번호가 있는 출처를 확인하지 않은 것이 더 나쁘지만, 더 큰 문제는 만약 당신이 페이지 번호가 없는 출처에서 그 내용이 어디에 있는지 찾는 어려움과 같은 내용을 삭제한 다른 이유가 있다면, 이것은 당신이 편집 요약에서 말했어야 하는 것이다.그리고 아마도 토크 페이지 포스트를 따라갔을 것이다.소스를 체크아웃하지 않은 상태에서 검증에 실패한 것으로 삭제하는 것은 허용되지 않는다.닐 아인 (대화) 08:27, 2020년 9월 28일 (UTC)[
- @닐 아인:죄송합니다, 이제 당신이 위에 열거한 인용문 맨 끝에 페이지 번호가 보이네요 (#19) 내가 과거에 본 적이 없는 경우.응, 내가 가지고 있는 다양한 도구들을 이용해서 출처를 확인했는데 삭제된 도구들은 하나도 못 맞았어.당신이 지적했듯이 나는 다른 필리핀 정치부 편집자들에게 소스 스캔, 페이지 번호 등을 제공하도록 반복적으로 요청했지만 그들은 그렇게 하지 않았다.이것은 아무도 그것을 읽지 않았다는 것을 의미하며, 그것을 간직할 명분은 이미 그곳에 있다는 것이다.아무도 그것을 검증할 수 없다면 또 다른 논리적인 정당성이 있는가?나는 WP:ONUS는 검증 실패 시 삭제하려는 편집자가 아니라 내용을 포함하려는 편집기에 있다.나는 이 기사를 종종 6개월 정도마다 편집하는데, 대부분 내가 편집한 내용은 채프, 드리블, 오버플로 POV 내용을 삭제하는 것과 관련이 있다.일반적으로 이러한 편집은 매일 POV 편집자들로부터 불만족스러운 결과를 초래한다.만약 당신이 나의 편집 전체와 기사에 대한 전반적인 내용을 본다면, 당신은 나의 편집이 중립적이고 WP:NPOV를 얻는 데 도움이 된다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.나는 (PP WP 외:) 다른 언볼루션 편집자들은 다음과 같이 생각했다.서커스)는 이것을 주목하기 위해 받아들일 수도 있지만, 지금까지 이 토크 페이지에 대한 대부분의 초점은 내 입장에서 볼 때 비위행위에 대한 근거 없는 주장들이다.분명히 말하면, 나는 그 기사의 주제와 아무런 관련이 없으며, 나는 확실히 유료 편집자가 아니며, 달리 주장할 근거도 없을 것이다.하지만 그 주장은 괜찮고, 바라건대 ANI 공간에서 이 토론에 대한 더 많은 관점이 그것을 기사와 WP로 만들기를 바라지만, 나는 이 ANI가 단지 두 명의 자유 편집자(당신과 JzG)를 포함하는 것처럼 보였다는 것을 인정한다.가이의 말은 단지 내가 기사 주제를 알고 있느냐는 질문일 뿐인데, 나는 그것을 악의의 정당화라고 여겼다.네, 이멜다는 혐오스럽지만, 5개의 기둥은 그것을 고려하지 않는다.나는 우리 모두가 BLP가 중립적이어야 하고 PP 편집자들이 검증할 수 없는 희귀 서적들을 사용하고 WP를 추구하기 위해 전기를 남용해야 한다는 것에 동의한다고 생각한다.Toolong, 블로그 출처(rappler 등), 그리고 주제를 중요한 것으로 홍보(기사의 주제에 막대한 순가치를 적용)한 다음 그녀를 비방하는 것은 5대 축 관점에서 잘못된 것이다.당신은 한 편집자가 내가 "외국인"이었고 그 문제에 대한 나의 의견은 타당하지 않다고 말했다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.이것은 POV 편집과 순수 서커스의 정의다.나는 당신이 어떻게 이 기사를 보게 되었는지 묻고 있었다. 왜냐하면 여기 WP에 관련된 편집자들의 노력도 있었기 때문이다.캔버스: 다른 PP 편집자들이 토론에 참여하도록 한다.우리는 그녀의 악명 높은 신발 컬렉션에서만 그 기사의 주제가 눈에 띄기 때문에 우리는 FRURED 콘텐츠를 추가할 필요가 없다는 것에 모두 동의한다.나는 AP2와 마찬가지로 PP를 DS로 추가할 것을 제안하고 싶다.그러면 이 기사에 있는 모든 미친 콘텐츠에 도전하고 제거하는 것이 더 쉬울 것이고, 다른 PP 기사에도 있는 것 같다(아직 볼 모험을 하지 않았다는 것은 인정하지만).또한 DS WP를 초래한 나의 편집과 관련된 유사한 논의였다는 점을 유념할 수 있을 것이다.GS/Crypto, 편집자 간의 의견 불일치가 언뜻 보기에 항상 나타나는 것은 아니다.고마워!Jtbobwaysf (대화) 12:19, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[
- 다만 여기에 대통령직속 좋은 정부위원회 외부연계를 철회하고 추가 논의가 있을 때까지 '주체에 대한 백과사전적 이해와 관련이 있고 통합될 수 없는 중립적이고 정확한 자료가 포함된 사이트'라는 내용을 찾아볼 수 없기 때문에 이 부분에 대해서는 재논의 중이다. ...때문에 위키피디아 기사에 실렸다. 디테일의 양."한 편집자가 정부 사이트의 중립성이 논란이 되고 있다고 주장하기 때문에 이 문제를 제기하는 겁니다.그래서 토론하는 것이 좋을 수도 있고, 그래서 내가 이 이야기를 토크 페이지에 올렸고, 현재 진행 중인 BLPN에서도 이 이야기를 꺼낼 것이다.고마워.- 치에하루마치(토크) 16:35, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[하라
- 편집자는 "페르디난드와 이멜다 마르코스가 50억 달러에서 100억 달러를 불법적으로 취득했다"고 주장하는 온라인 출처를 수없이 삭제했는데, 우리가 이 "잔인한" 언급에 대해 이야기하는 이유는 그들이 그가 마지막으로 삭제한 것이었기 때문이다.편집자는 또한 선도에서 주장된 문장이 1986년에 현재 또는 최근의 순자산과 가장 큰 추정 금액에 대한 언급이 없다는 사실을 반복적으로 인정하지 않았다.그것은 표시된 바와 같이 Warf에 의해 주장된다.그것은 마나팟 책 전체의 주요 전제다.라플러와 베라필스를 상대로 한 블로그라는 비난은 그 단체들에 대한 비방이며, 편집자가 이를 주장하는 합의를 인정하지 않는 것은...나는 그것을 묘사할 정중한 말을 가지고 있지 않다.또한, 과거에 선두에서 제거된 다른 기사에 의해 언급된 사실이 주장된다.피셔, 2020; 그리고 데이비스 2016이 떠오른다.소식통이 가득한 기사에는 '페르디난드와 이멜다 마르코스가 50억~100억 달러를 불법으로 취득했다'는 내용이 실려 있다. - 치에하라마치(토크) 17:08, 2020년 9월 29일(UTC)[하라
- jtbobwaysf는 여러 번 반박된 주장과 주장을 거듭 반복했지만, 그는 아직 이에 대응하거나 인정한 적이 없다.그리고 그는 계속해서 다양한 편집자의 입에 단어를 넣는다.다음은 그가 다음과 같이 대답할 몇 가지 요점이다.
"블로그 출처 (래플러
등)":
그럼에도 불구하고: 래플러는 블로그가 아닌 확립된 뉴스 웹사이트로 (그래, 블로그 섹션은 있지만, 편집자들은 그것들을 인용하지 않도록 주의한다) 라플러는 이미 WP:RS/N에서 신뢰할 수 있는 출처로서 확립되었다.Jtbobwaysf가 정말로 라플러가 위키백과에서 인용할 수 있는 유효하고 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 아니라고 믿는다면.기사가 나면 WP에서 자유롭게 실을 시작할 수 있다.과거의 RS/N 논의에서 제기되지 않은 새로운 사항이나 증거를 포함한 RS/N.어떤 종류의 증거도 없이 "래플러는 블로그"라는 말만 되풀이하는 것은 나쁜 형식이다."내 부분에 대한 입증
되지 않은비위 의혹들":
여기 BLP/N에 링크, 디프, 상세한 설명들이 게시되어 있고, 기사 토크 페이지가 "설명되지 않은" 것인가?Jtbobwaysf는 아마도 "미확정"의 의미를 재검토할 필요가 있을 것이다.팁: Jtbobwaysf는 전혀 다른 의미를 가진 단어인 "검증되지 않은" 것을 생각하고 있을 것이다."편집인
중 한명이 내가 '외국인'
이며 이문제에 대한 나의 의견은 타당
하지 않다고말했다."
스카이하버가 '외국인'이라는 단어를 언급한 것을 잘못 표현한 것이다.Jtbobwaysf의 의견이 무효라고 명시하거나 암시하지 않았지만, 오히려 Sky Harbor는 Jtbowwaysf가 애호하고 있다고 생각하는 실제 메시지([138])를 참조하라."여기 WP에 참여한 편집자들은 다음과 같이 말했다.
캔버스":
이제 이것은 근거 없는 주장이다.단지 내가 다른 편집자들의 의견에 동의한다고 해서 Jtbobwaysf의 행동이 파괴적이라는 것이 선거 운동이 일어났다는 것을 의미하지는 않는다.개인적으로 2016년부터 필리핀의 현대적인 사건들 때문에 마르코스 관련 기사들을 여러 편 모니터링하고 있다.예를 들어, 마르코스의 아들은 2016년 중반 부통령에 출마했고 페르디난드 마르코스는 2016년 말 논란이 되는 영웅의 장례식을 받았고, 이러한 사건들로 인해 많은 일방적인 위키백과 편집이 이루어졌고 결국 일방적 편집자의 주제가 금지되었다."FRURED 콘텐트를 추가할 필요
는 없다":
내가 다른 곳에서 말했듯이, 페르디난드와 이멜다의 과잉은 수십 년 전으로 거슬러 올라가는 다양한 형태의 문헌에 광범위하게 기록되어 왔고, 이러한 것들이 마르코스 부부에 대해 쉽게 알 수 있는 중요한 화두들이다.나는 Jtbobwaysf가 삭제하는 일부 정보를 언급하는 것이 어떻게 FRURED를 위반하는 것인지 알지 못한다. 왜냐하면 이러한 정보들은 확실히 소수자의 관점이 아니기 때문이다.
- —seav (대화)19:11, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[
- "그래, 내가 마음대로 가지고 있는 다양한 도구들을 이용해서 출처를 확인했는데 삭제된 도구들에 대해 어떤 히트도 얻을 수 없었다." ->>><내 불용에 가지고 있는 도구들>이라는 말로 jtbobwaysf는 게으른 구글링을 의미한다.워프는 검색이 가능한 구글 책으로, 인용문으로 삭제하기 전에 굳이 체크인을 하지 않았다.그리고 이 논리의 범위를 확대함으로써 오프라인 출처라는 이유만으로 수많은 인용문들을 삭제했고, 사실 그가 출처를 확인하지 않았을 때 "검증 실패"를 주장했고, 이것은 전혀 용납할 수 없는 행동이다.Jtbobwaysf는 또한 WP의 삽입을 주장하면서 여기에 가스를 점등하고 있다.문제의 내용이 소수 의견이 아닌 RS에 의해 잘 문서화된 견해로 광범위하게 유지되는 경우 FRURED. -Object404 (대화) 18:34, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[
- 이 기사의 주제는 페르디난드 마르코스가 아니다.액세스 권한을 암시하는 오프라인 소스의 스캔을 보내십시오.Jtbobwaysf (대화) 06:51, 2020년 10월 1일 (UTC)[
- 페르디난드와 이멜다 마르코스는 불가분의 관계를 맺고 있으며 정부의 최대 강도 세계 기록을 공유하고 있다.도둑질과 재산의 관점에서 그 둘을 분리할 수는 없다.출처에 대해서는, 당신은 그들이 검증에 실패했다고 주장하기 전에 출처를 읽지 않았다는 것을 다시 한 번 증명했고, 당신 쪽에서는 명백히 부정직하고 받아들일 수 없는 위키피디아인의 행동이다.x -Object404 (대화) 08:26, 2020년 10월 1일 (UTC)[
- 다만 여기에 대통령직속 좋은 정부위원회 외부연계를 철회하고 추가 논의가 있을 때까지 '주체에 대한 백과사전적 이해와 관련이 있고 통합될 수 없는 중립적이고 정확한 자료가 포함된 사이트'라는 내용을 찾아볼 수 없기 때문에 이 부분에 대해서는 재논의 중이다. ...때문에 위키피디아 기사에 실렸다. 디테일의 양."한 편집자가 정부 사이트의 중립성이 논란이 되고 있다고 주장하기 때문에 이 문제를 제기하는 겁니다.그래서 토론하는 것이 좋을 수도 있고, 그래서 내가 이 이야기를 토크 페이지에 올렸고, 현재 진행 중인 BLPN에서도 이 이야기를 꺼낼 것이다.고마워.- 치에하루마치(토크) 16:35, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[하라
- @닐 아인:죄송합니다, 이제 당신이 위에 열거한 인용문 맨 끝에 페이지 번호가 보이네요 (#19) 내가 과거에 본 적이 없는 경우.응, 내가 가지고 있는 다양한 도구들을 이용해서 출처를 확인했는데 삭제된 도구들은 하나도 못 맞았어.당신이 지적했듯이 나는 다른 필리핀 정치부 편집자들에게 소스 스캔, 페이지 번호 등을 제공하도록 반복적으로 요청했지만 그들은 그렇게 하지 않았다.이것은 아무도 그것을 읽지 않았다는 것을 의미하며, 그것을 간직할 명분은 이미 그곳에 있다는 것이다.아무도 그것을 검증할 수 없다면 또 다른 논리적인 정당성이 있는가?나는 WP:ONUS는 검증 실패 시 삭제하려는 편집자가 아니라 내용을 포함하려는 편집기에 있다.나는 이 기사를 종종 6개월 정도마다 편집하는데, 대부분 내가 편집한 내용은 채프, 드리블, 오버플로 POV 내용을 삭제하는 것과 관련이 있다.일반적으로 이러한 편집은 매일 POV 편집자들로부터 불만족스러운 결과를 초래한다.만약 당신이 나의 편집 전체와 기사에 대한 전반적인 내용을 본다면, 당신은 나의 편집이 중립적이고 WP:NPOV를 얻는 데 도움이 된다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.나는 (PP WP 외:) 다른 언볼루션 편집자들은 다음과 같이 생각했다.서커스)는 이것을 주목하기 위해 받아들일 수도 있지만, 지금까지 이 토크 페이지에 대한 대부분의 초점은 내 입장에서 볼 때 비위행위에 대한 근거 없는 주장들이다.분명히 말하면, 나는 그 기사의 주제와 아무런 관련이 없으며, 나는 확실히 유료 편집자가 아니며, 달리 주장할 근거도 없을 것이다.하지만 그 주장은 괜찮고, 바라건대 ANI 공간에서 이 토론에 대한 더 많은 관점이 그것을 기사와 WP로 만들기를 바라지만, 나는 이 ANI가 단지 두 명의 자유 편집자(당신과 JzG)를 포함하는 것처럼 보였다는 것을 인정한다.가이의 말은 단지 내가 기사 주제를 알고 있느냐는 질문일 뿐인데, 나는 그것을 악의의 정당화라고 여겼다.네, 이멜다는 혐오스럽지만, 5개의 기둥은 그것을 고려하지 않는다.나는 우리 모두가 BLP가 중립적이어야 하고 PP 편집자들이 검증할 수 없는 희귀 서적들을 사용하고 WP를 추구하기 위해 전기를 남용해야 한다는 것에 동의한다고 생각한다.Toolong, 블로그 출처(rappler 등), 그리고 주제를 중요한 것으로 홍보(기사의 주제에 막대한 순가치를 적용)한 다음 그녀를 비방하는 것은 5대 축 관점에서 잘못된 것이다.당신은 한 편집자가 내가 "외국인"이었고 그 문제에 대한 나의 의견은 타당하지 않다고 말했다는 것을 알게 될 것이다.이것은 POV 편집과 순수 서커스의 정의다.나는 당신이 어떻게 이 기사를 보게 되었는지 묻고 있었다. 왜냐하면 여기 WP에 관련된 편집자들의 노력도 있었기 때문이다.캔버스: 다른 PP 편집자들이 토론에 참여하도록 한다.우리는 그녀의 악명 높은 신발 컬렉션에서만 그 기사의 주제가 눈에 띄기 때문에 우리는 FRURED 콘텐츠를 추가할 필요가 없다는 것에 모두 동의한다.나는 AP2와 마찬가지로 PP를 DS로 추가할 것을 제안하고 싶다.그러면 이 기사에 있는 모든 미친 콘텐츠에 도전하고 제거하는 것이 더 쉬울 것이고, 다른 PP 기사에도 있는 것 같다(아직 볼 모험을 하지 않았다는 것은 인정하지만).또한 DS WP를 초래한 나의 편집과 관련된 유사한 논의였다는 점을 유념할 수 있을 것이다.GS/Crypto, 편집자 간의 의견 불일치가 언뜻 보기에 항상 나타나는 것은 아니다.고마워!Jtbobwaysf (대화) 12:19, 2020년 9월 29일 (UTC)[
- @Jtbobwaysf:내가 BLPN에서 코멘트를 했기 때문에 그런 것 같아.어쨌든, 나는 ping을 본 적이 없고 나의 알림 기록에 나타나지 않기 때문에 ping이 효과가 없었다고 생각한다(나는 거의 제거하지 않는다).내가 여기 BLPN에서 토론이 있다는 댓글을 보고 왔기 때문에 여기 온 건데, 나는 내 걱정이 어디선가 해결되기를 기다리고 있었는데, 그들은 이 토론에 참여하기로 그렇게 결정되지 않았어.나는 네가 여전히 우려의 요점을 말하는 것을 거부하고 있다는 것을 안다.나는 이미 당신이 내용을 삭제한 [136] 위의 diff에 연결했다.당신이 그것에 대해 아무 말도 하지 않겠다고 끈질기게 거절한 것으로 보아 당신이 실제로 어떤 출처도 확인하지 않은 것이 분명해 보인다.나는 내가 이 요청을 잘못 읽었다는 것을 인정한다[137], 페이지 스캔은 워프(페이지 번호가 있는)가 아니라 PCGG@30(페이지 번호가 없는)에 관한 것이었다.하지만 나는 네가 최근에 한 코멘트에서 워프도 체크아웃하지 않았다고 추측할 수 있다. 왜냐하면 네가 워프도 체크아웃했고 그것이 없다는 것을 알았다면 어떤 출처를 물어볼 필요가 없기 때문이다.그리고 솔직히 페이지 번호 문제는 사소한 점일 뿐이다.어떤 면에서는 페이지 번호가 있는 출처를 확인하지 않은 것이 더 나쁘지만, 더 큰 문제는 만약 당신이 페이지 번호가 없는 출처에서 그 내용이 어디에 있는지 찾는 어려움과 같은 내용을 삭제한 다른 이유가 있다면, 이것은 당신이 편집 요약에서 말했어야 하는 것이다.그리고 아마도 토크 페이지 포스트를 따라갔을 것이다.소스를 체크아웃하지 않은 상태에서 검증에 실패한 것으로 삭제하는 것은 허용되지 않는다.닐 아인 (대화) 08:27, 2020년 9월 28일 (UTC)[
- 나는 편집자가 지금까지 이멜다 마르코스 페이지에서 삭제한 다양한 참고 문헌을 몇 가지 파헤치기로 했다(그 후 다른 편집자들이 그 중 일부를 돌려주긴 했지만).아직 끝난 것은 아니지만 2020년 3월부터 7월까지 불우한 재산이나 관련 법정 소송에 대한 언급은 삭제되었다.
- • 가디언으로부터:Davies, Nick (7 May 2016). "The $10bn question: what happened to the Marcos millions?". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 26 May 2018.
- 대법원은 필리핀의(일차 원인 다른 기준으로 지원되는)부터 •:.대법원은 필리핀의."REPUBLIC 경제, 청원자가 꼭 대 HONORABLE SANDIGANBAYAN(정말 첫번째 DIVISION), FERDINAND EMARCOS(HISESTATE/HEIRS:IMELDA RMARCOS, MARIA IMELDA[IMEE]MARCOS-MANOTOC, FERDINAND RMARCOS, JR. 및 IRENE MARCOS-ARANETA)ANDIMELDA ROMUALDEZ MARCOS. 왜냐하면, REPRESENTED 응답자".대법원은 필리핀의.15일부터 11월 2018년 Retrieved.
- • 필리핀 스타로부터:
- • 뉴욕 타임즈 기록 보관소:
- • 시드니 모닝 헤럴드로부터:
- • Gerard Lico의 2003년 Ateneo University Press에서 출판된 책:
- 아직 검토를 마칠 시간이 없었어. - 치에하라마치 (대화) 13:38, 2020년 10월 5일 (UTC)[
- 나는 편집자가 지금까지 이멜다 마르코스 페이지에서 삭제한 다양한 참고 문헌을 몇 가지 파헤치기로 했다(그 후 다른 편집자들이 그 중 일부를 돌려주긴 했지만).아직 끝난 것은 아니지만 2020년 3월부터 7월까지 불우한 재산이나 관련 법정 소송에 대한 언급은 삭제되었다.
- And also, quite aside from the sources, there's the matter of bullying behaviour, refusal to recognise consensus, and deletion of citations for no actual reason (just his opinion that they are "dribble")... all of which were raised in the first post of this thread, and further asserted by other editors. I believe it's clear that the editor wants the article either to not to contain or not highlight the negative history of the subject, which would be reasonable except that the subject is palpably notable because of that negative history. One's fear is that the editor will continue deleting details of this ill-gotten wealth, as he has had a long history of doing. I argue that this is would be as much whitewashing as not mentioning the holocaust in the lead of the Adolf Hitler article. Short of that, his refusal to recognize consensus and denigrating of news sources (and courts!) that disagree with his views have held the talk page hostage, making consensus in the article difficult to achieve, and editing intentionally vexatious for anyone who disagrees with him. - Chieharumachi (talk) 17:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- Court documents, including verdicts and rulings, aren't reliable sources, actually. EEng 14:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- 이것이 바로 이 기사의 쟁점이다.이들 편집자들 중 일부는 주요 출처, 블로그를 주장하고 있으며 수십 년 된 자료들은 현재 자료들을 지배해야 하는데, 이 자료들은 마르코스의 운명은 아마도 수백만 (혹은 수십억, 또는 열거된 자료들 중 하나로 168억 달러)에 불과할 수도 있다고 말한다.운세가 논란이 되거나 뚜렷한 공감대가 없으면 글에 그렇게 반영해야 한다.
- 또한, 위의 편집자는 "외국인은 우리가 어떤 소스를 사용해야 할지 모른다는 것을 암시하는 것 같다"는 "외국인을 애호하는 것을 발견한다"라는 "외국인"의 코멘트를 되돌리려고 노력했다.본질적으로 이 편집자들은 '나는 외국인이고 따라서 이 기사를 편집할 권리가 없다'고 주장한다.이는 잘못되었다.@JZG: 이것을 지지하십니까?당신은 이 ANI 제안을 기사를 금지하기 위해 시작하셨군요.이게 네 의도야?내가 눈에 보이지 않는 선을 넘었을지도 모르지만(나는 확실히 3RR 근처에는 아무 데도 없었다), 서커스를 보면 서커스를 발견할 수 있을 것이다.내가 가끔 이 기사를 편집하는 동안, 이 기사는 나에게 특별한 관심사가 아니며 필리핀 정치 전체도 아니다.매니 파키오(복서)나 두테르테(트럼프 클론) 외에 필리핀 출신 정치인과 마주친다면 알아보지도 못할 것이다.나는 이 기사를 단순히 질이 나쁜 BLP라고 편집하고 위키피디아를 사용하여 중요성을 부풀린 다음 기사 주제를 비방하는 것은 옳지 않다고 생각한다.이 기사에 정말로 필요한 것은 DS이지 편집자에 대한 어느 정도의 초점이 아니다.그건 내 생각이야.Jtbobwaysf (대화) 16:20, 2020년 10월 13일 (UTC)[
- Court documents, including verdicts and rulings, aren't reliable sources, actually. EEng 14:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- It would be great if you could list the diffs of the content you assert that I removed. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:07, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf: another falsehood from you. I never said that you did that. I said you should have done that. When I looked at the discussion before my earlier responses, what I said is you you never actually made any attempt to ask for help verifying the info before deletion. Instead you just went ahead and deleted it while claiming something had failed verification when it's clear you did not have access to any of the 3 sources, and made no genuine attempts to obtain access, so had no idea if it was verified by any of the 3 sources. Only when someone queried you about your deletion did you begin to ask, while still ignoring the question over whether you'd actually checked the sources. Missing a page number is an excusable error. What is not excusable is lying and claiming something failed verification when you don't have access to any 3 of the sources (regardless of whether they had page numbers). As I did actually say, even if you had made a genuine attempt to obtain access and failed, and were unsure enough about the info that you felt it warranted deletion until it could be confirmed, the correct course of action was to accurately explain why you were deleting (e.g. 'awaiting verification' with an explanation in the talk) rather than to lie and say it "failed verification". Similarly if you didn't have access but felt there was no point because you couldn't find the info in a long book and so the info should be removed until someone provides page numbers, the correct course would be to accurately explain (e.g. 'removing as the lack of page numbers make this very difficult to verify' with a follow up on the talk page). Likewise if you did obtain all 3 books, and couldn't work out where the info was because there was no page numbers and didn't find it anywhere obvious, again the correct response was to explain why you were removing the info (e.g. 'awaiting verification' or 'no page numbers, couldn't find this in the book' again likely with a followup on the talk page) rather than to lie and say it failed verification when the actual case is it was impossible to verify since you have no idea where the info was in the book. I'd be willing to accept failed verification if you'd skimmed through the books and couldn't find it although frankly I'm not sure why we need to be having this debate. Instead you could just use a better edit summary, or at least explain on the talk page, what the actual situation was, which let me repeat, you never did. Indeed you evaded questions over what you did. You've been given multiple chances to acknowledge you made a mistake not because you missed a page number, but because you falsely claimed something failed verification. But instead of doing that are now claiming I said something I didn't. Unless you're willing to undertake to stop making highly misleading claims in edit summaries, I won't engage with you any more. Frankly, if there weren't already 2 proposals, I'd consider making a community ban proposal myself. People who tell lies about what they did should not be on Wikipedia, given the harm they cause. I should be able to trust that when an experienced editor says "failed verification" they mean "I checked the sources, and don't see where it says what we claimed" and not "yuck this article uses books, I'm going to delete this content because I can't be bothered visiting a library or asking someone for help obtaining access". Nil Einne (talk) 11:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: AGF please. I have previously stated that I used online tools (with an s) to check and I couldn't find anything. You seek to keep challenging this point, including leaving a long post on my talk page as well on the same subject. I have already also admitted I missed the book in google books. Am I required to state the name of the tools I use? More importantly, does anyone in this ANI have any evidence from RS that the article subject IS a billionare? Do you? There has been plenty of this discussed on the article's talk page, and I recall I even challenged it on the talk page a week or more prior to me starting to remove it. Why is it such a big deal if they lady is a billionaire or not, my understanding of wikipedia is we dont care, and we just follow the sources. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- AGF? Assumptions of good faith flew out the window when you flat-out lied and claimed that the content "failed verification" when you did not read the citation sources. As an extremely experienced Wikipedia editor, this is unforgivable on your part. What is a big deal here is not Imelda's being a billionaire or not, but your patently dishonest and disruptive behavior which is detrimental to the Wikipedia project. What's more, in your latest comments, you seem unrepentant and continue to evade the issue. -Object404 (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia policies (such as AGF) dont fly out the window because you disagree with the edits. I have repeatedly asked for evidence including scans to be emailed to me, or to other uninvolved editors, to demonstrate that you (or anyone else here) has actually seen the disputed content. Have you got access to this? Or are you still pushing that the sources support the content, but you dont have access to it. The sources have been referred to as rare, etc. Do you have it? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia policies (such as AGF) dont fly out the window because you disagree with the edits" Agree. They fly out the window because you brazenly lied to the Wikipedia community. I'm now inclined towards Nil Einne's stance that you be indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia as you have not changed your stance. -Object404 (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- "I have repeatedly asked for evidence including scans to be emailed to me" -> Note that Jtbobwaysf only started asking about scans to be sent to him after he'd been caught and called out for deleting content and citations for which he claimed "failed verification" when he did not even read the citations. -Object404 (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia policies (such as AGF) dont fly out the window because you disagree with the edits" Agree. They fly out the window because you brazenly lied to the Wikipedia community. I'm now inclined towards Nil Einne's stance that you be indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia as you have not changed your stance. -Object404 (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia policies (such as AGF) dont fly out the window because you disagree with the edits. I have repeatedly asked for evidence including scans to be emailed to me, or to other uninvolved editors, to demonstrate that you (or anyone else here) has actually seen the disputed content. Have you got access to this? Or are you still pushing that the sources support the content, but you dont have access to it. The sources have been referred to as rare, etc. Do you have it? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- AGF? Assumptions of good faith flew out the window when you flat-out lied and claimed that the content "failed verification" when you did not read the citation sources. As an extremely experienced Wikipedia editor, this is unforgivable on your part. What is a big deal here is not Imelda's being a billionaire or not, but your patently dishonest and disruptive behavior which is detrimental to the Wikipedia project. What's more, in your latest comments, you seem unrepentant and continue to evade the issue. -Object404 (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: AGF please. I have previously stated that I used online tools (with an s) to check and I couldn't find anything. You seek to keep challenging this point, including leaving a long post on my talk page as well on the same subject. I have already also admitted I missed the book in google books. Am I required to state the name of the tools I use? More importantly, does anyone in this ANI have any evidence from RS that the article subject IS a billionare? Do you? There has been plenty of this discussed on the article's talk page, and I recall I even challenged it on the talk page a week or more prior to me starting to remove it. Why is it such a big deal if they lady is a billionaire or not, my understanding of wikipedia is we dont care, and we just follow the sources. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Proposal 1 (Jtbobwaysf)
Jtbobwaysf is topic-banned indefinitely from the subject of Imelda Marcos, broadly construed.
- Support. I have seen enough. At best this is WP:RGW, and in reality it looks a lot more like WP:TE. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly support. A lot of documents have already been cited yet the editor still denies them and goes against the consensus. This is obviously a case of WP:DE and WP:TE. Suitable sanctions must be meted to the erring editor. HiwilmsTalk 01:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- The "consensus" on this ANI, and besides you and guy, is the all of the editors involved in the circus on an article (that I edited too much and got involved in rgw in the face of strongly opinioned political editors). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:27, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly support -- as per proposed sanctions by User:JzG], and as per concerns I and others have raised above. - Chieharumachi (talk) 03:02, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly support. Propose too that Jtbobwaysf be topic-banned indefinitely from related articles such as Kilusang Bagong Lipunan, Ferdinand Marcos, Bongbong Marcos, Imee Marcos, People Power Revolution, Ninoy Aquino, Martial law in the Philippines and the like. -Object404 (talk) 04:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Have i even edited these articles recently? (or ever). Or are you just listing the articles in your interest group? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Adding Operation Big Bird to this list. -Object404 (talk) 11:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Was the edit on that article controversial? I did the same as I have done on the Marco's article, remove gross violations of WP:TOOMUCH. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Adding Operation Big Bird to this list. -Object404 (talk) 11:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Have i even edited these articles recently? (or ever). Or are you just listing the articles in your interest group? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support. And with emphasis on "broadly construed". —seav (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support depending on how the term "broadly construed" is defined. Given Imelda's entanglements, I imagine a broadly-defined topic ban covering Imelda and topics secondary to her would be more than sufficient, including topics suggested by Object404 in his comments. --Sky Harbor (talk) 04:24, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I think this overlaps strongly with her husband, Ferdinand Marcos. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- It definitely overlaps with FEM. There's no doubt abut it. It's exactly why the book The Conjugal Dictatorship of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos exists. HiwilmsTalk 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just because there is a book written we dont change wikipedia rules. There are other articles on the Marcos family (eg Unexplained wealth of the Marcos family) , and this ANI started over a dispute to Imelda's net worth, not her husbands net worth. I dont recall I have ever edited the husband's article and I tend to be more interested in BLPs than deceased people. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- It definitely overlaps with FEM. There's no doubt abut it. It's exactly why the book The Conjugal Dictatorship of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos exists. HiwilmsTalk 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strong support the editor has provided no coherent explanation for why they lied and said something had failed verification, when they had actually not read any of the 3 source. Missing a page number is one thing, lying and say something "failed verification" when you did not have access to any of the sources is another thing completely. This frankly isn't someone who should be editing Wikipedia point blank. Nil Einne (talk) 11:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Excuse me, do you have any evidence I lied? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Proposal 2 (Jtbobwaysf)
Jtbobwaysf is topic-banned indefinitely from subjects relating to Philippine Politics.
- Support. I hate to see what kind of headache Jtbobwaysf causes with the kind of disruptive and dishonest editing he has been doing at the Imelda Marcos article, applied to other articles relating to Philippine politics. -Object404 (talk) 04:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Support, but more measured - I think maybe it will do to have a topic ban on the Imelda Marcos article, broadly construed (by which I understand "Marcos" and "History of the Philippines 1965-1986" - related articles) and then some sort of limitation on his reverting privileges on Philippine poltics related articles (say, 1RR instead of 3RR)? - Chieharumachi (talk) 09:39, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Support. -- I reviewed the conversation to better understand the differences between categories, and it looks to me that the concern is more with the risk posed by the editor's behavior doing damage to contemporary Philippine politics articles. (My primary interest is history, not contemporary politics, so I did not immediately notice this.) Changing vote to a more straightforward "support" for now, applying to Philippine politics articles broadly. But if there is further discussion on this section, I may be swayed towards a more measured application of the ban again. - Chieharumachi (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2020 (UTC)- Comment I am not sure if i have even edited a another article related to the Philippines more than once or twice. Nothing I can remember off hand recently. Or this some type of Preemptive arrest? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Too broad compared to the articles said user has actually edited recently. The only other Philippines-related article edited by this user in the last 500 edits is Operation Big Bird. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reminder. Adding Operation Big Bird to the list in the preceding section. -Object404 (talk) 11:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strong support As I said above, this editor should not be on Wikipedia point blank. The more we restrict the, the better. Nil Einne (talk) 11:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support - Philippines politics covers it nicely, and prevents arguments about individuals being in or out of the topic area. Mjroots (talk) 18:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment it is strange that editors such as Mjroots suggest that I be given a topic ban, when I dont edit any articles relating to the topic other the one article subject of this content dispute (other than a little cleanup a few months ago of one related article, and none of that was controversial). I rarely edit politics articles in general (regardless Philippines or otherwise), with the exception of a few BLPs that are related (Julian Assange, etc)). I often edit biographies of undesirable subjects that tend to be smeared (Harvey Weinstein, OJ Simpson, Leland Stanford, etc), and sometimes that crosses over into politics, as there are highly polarized editors in those realms (as you can see in this ANI). JzG showed up early on and asked 'If I knew who Imelda was?.' I guess implying that since she is a 'bad' person and has a large shoe collection that we should somehow invalidate the 5 pillars and allow her article to be smeared with unverifiable content? Practically speaking, I cant see how a topic ban would be any different from a single article ban, as this is basically the only Philippines Politics (PP) article that I edit. But is that the correct approach? Nil Einne suggested I be banned from Wikipedia entirely for deleting content that cannot be verified ;-) is that more appropriate? I have repeatedly asked all the involved PP editors (who all voted in this ANI as far as I can see) if any of them actually have the sources that I deleted to substantiate the sourcing (other than 'this is a rare out of print book, etc' excuse) and none of them can provide it (other than one error which I admitted above). So this ANI is to suggest giving me some sort of ban, ranging from article level, to topic level, to full wikipedia ban (as Nil Einne suggested) because I deleted sources that nobody has provided a copy of until now. To my understanding the majority of the other sources listed above all were used to anchor content that wasn't supported in the source. Pretty vanilla deletes. Sad the Wikipedia process has degraded to this level where people want to weigh in on a ban, without actually looking at the supposedly offending diffs. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - I retain the position that more than the case of the three or so articles which have become the focus of discussion so far, subject's dismissive behavior towards other editors and towards sources which disagree with his view, and his insistence on his own interpretation of other editors's supposed intentions (his refusal to acknowledge the difference between supposed net worth vis a vis ill-gotten wealth, for example) - thus creating an environment where it is impossible to have discourse under WP:Assume Good Faith - are the broader and more-essential arguments in favor of Proposals 1 and 2. These violate WP:5P5, one of the five pillars, quite blatantly. I do not see that this broader behavior has been sufficiently addressed, thus my continued support for Proposal 2 and 1. - Chieharumachi (talk)
- First, I apologize for taking the wrong approach. I have opened RFC Talk:Imelda_Marcos#RFC_billionaire to begin to address a few issues in the lede that appear conflated: One if the subject is a billionaire now (aka if she has wealth in the billions) which was the lede around the time of this ANI's opening, two if she and her deceased husband were billionaires (their 'personal net worth') in 1986 when they fled (the lede currently reflects this), and three if the wealth is ill-gotten (aka stolen). Each of these are separate claims and to keep the RFC simple, I only included the first of these claims in the linked RFC. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 13:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
Proposal 3 (DS)
I propose this issue above be dealt with using DS for all Philippines politics topics. It is pretty obvious that it is necessary from reading above. Same proposal as Chieharumachi posted above (before striking the cmt). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Proposal 4 - (Jtbobwaysf) - Indefinite Block
It is clear now that Jtbobwaysf is unapologetic in his stance and continues to lie, claiming in essence with his latest comment to @Mjroots: that books that are not free online as well as offline sources are unverifiable. For a very experienced editor like Jtbobwaysf to claim these things is ridiculous and goes against Wikipedia rules. It is likely then that Jtbobwaysf is probably going to commit the same egregious behavior of deleting reliably sourced content as well as citations in the future with his own justification that he could not find free online copies of citation sources, and claim "failed verification". WP:V: "Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access" -> judging from Jtbobwaysf's latest comments, it sounds like he is willing to violate this tenet in a heartbeat again. Jtbobwaysf claims "I be banned from Wikipedia entirely for deleting content that cannot be verified". False, the said content CAN be verified. Warf is online and searchable as a Google Book, Manapat is available in print and as an e-book, Jtbobwaysf was just not willing to pay for it. -Object404 (talk) 15:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strong Support As per @Nil Einne:, I support an indefinite block on Jtbobwaysf. -Object404 (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. Firstly, let me point out that I am mainly uninvolved in the article. My only edits there are correcting her position (Manila -> Metro Manila) and removing an excess period. I agree with what Object404 has said. Typically, disruptive editors are given blocks. Also, I don't think I could still assume that the edits were made in good faith based on everything on this thread and on the article's talk page.
Having said that, I am at a tipping point. I'm thinking of withdrawing my support for Proposal 1 and support a heavier sanction.I'd like to see how this will go and how other editors would comment. To the other editors, a lot of you are probably irritated already with how things are going here.The user is unapologetic.However, I would like to remind everyone to exercise caution with the proposals. Please support the proposal that you think is the most appropriate with regard to his behavior/actions. Thanks. HiwilmsTalk 18:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC) - Comment In this dispute I made the mistake of TE and RGW rather than running a RFC (or other DR process). In retrospect that would have been more logical in this type of highly politicized article. I apologize for that and accept whatever punishment is meted out even if it means the end of me editing. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:19, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - at last we seem to be getting somewhere. Jtbobwaysf has at last acknowledged they were in the wrong. If there is a chance that they will participate constructively in a DR process, then let's allow them to take that chance. Mjroots (talk) 10:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. I think this is too much. HiwilmsTalk 18:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - The articles Ferdinand Marcos and Imelda Marcos are unbalanced, and I believe Jtbobwaysf was trying to remove the clutter of undue weight on Imelda's article.–Sanglahi86 (talk) 19:33, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- I periodically try to cleanup this article (havent made any attempt at the husband's as he is not a BLP and less priority I figured), and made the mistake of TE rather than doing an RFC. I have started Talk:Imelda_Marcos#RFC_billionaire on the subject that related me my veering off course in my approach that ultimately resulted in this ANI. Feel free to comment. Apologies and thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Resuming
Thread retrieved from archive after a lull |
|---|
| Erm... the Imelda Marcos discussion about the Imelda Marcos page got automatically archived (at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1049#Proposal_1_(Jtbobwaysf)) while people were voting on proposoals. Apparently there was a 72 hour lull. I think it was unclear when exactly a consensus would/could be achieved. May I ask whether there are next steps for this, or whether we have to start all over again? The potential for whitewashing seems too significant to just be let go of. - Chieharumachi (talk) 05:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
|
- I think someone needs to ping back all the participants, but I just haven't got the energy so I'll leave that to some other kind soul. EEng 19:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Pinging: Chieharumachi, Object404, Seav, Sky Harbor, Nil Einne, JzG, LaundryPizza03, Mjroots, EEng, and Jtbobwaysf. HiwilmsTalk 05:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Bumping this to prevent automatic archiving. Could this be closed already? HiwilmsTalk 09:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sports seasons and bulk deletions / nuisance nominations
Hi, this may be an unusual case, but I wasn't sure what else to do.
Several deletions are currently being disputed by users, seemingly correctly, about soccer team season articles (of which Wikipedia has many; thousands, I presume).
At least a dozen season articles were recently deleted, including for some national top-level clubs, which would have a good chance of passing notability guidelines.
The "debates" started by User:Spiderone have been poor ones, or nonexistent. Discussions all involve variations on WP:GNG, which requires that a topic can be referenced by sufficient independent sources – but, of course, lack of citations is not the same as lack of notability. Page Tagging would clearly be a less contentious method. The 7-day topic deletion process is something that well-informed users can and do miss – and when the deletion is mistaken or biased, the work done on the article disappears for no reason.
Four current examples, including some vehement arguments:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1996–97 FK Vardar season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Békéscsaba 1912 Előre season
Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 9
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011–12 Melbourne Victory W-League season
These all involve WP:GNG and/or WP:NSEASONS, a slightly odd (and brief) U.S.-centric guideline on sports seasons – it was never designed to be an exclusionary device to delete as many articles as possible. The user in question also seems to say that the latter guideline has an anti-amateur stance, which it doesn't have; it simply says professional leagues should be included in Wikipedia. This is obvious.
These recent deletions happened with little or no discussion, always the same minimal arguments ("GNG/NSEASONS"), and sometimes as few as three votes.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011 FC Banants season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2010 Bohemian F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013–14 FC Ajka season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018–19 Balmazújvárosi FC season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012–13 Szolnoki MÁV FC season
Essentially, the recent nominations have been a waste of everyone's time, and I'm afraid Wikipedia is the poorer for it. - Demokra (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- In all examples, excluding the Melbourne Victory and Doncaster Belles ones, no evidence of WP:GNG being met were actually brought forward by any of the keep voters. If there is decent potential for reliable secondary sources, then alternatives to deletion can be considered, including moving the article to draft space until such a time when it is in a decent enough state to be returned to the mainspace. A lot of the keep votes seem to centre on ridiculous accusations of 'sexism' and 'bias' rather than actually addressing the notability of the articles in question. Also, I tend to see a lot of WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments over and over again. Information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and notable. At no point, has the project ever been about posting excessive listings of statistics and match results for as many teams as possible. Spiderone 12:45, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Please note at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 9 I brought forward WP:3SOURCES to support WP:GNG. Unfortunately certain editors have studiously ignored them. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- And I changed my vote as a result as you can see. Reliably sourced and SIGCOV so clearly the content was worth keeping, either as being merged to the main club article or being kept in its own right. I maintained my delete vote for the other two seasons only but, of course, that's not what this ANI is about is it? Spiderone 14:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Another issue is here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 London City Lionesses F.C. season where people are treating the AfD as a 'vote' rather than a discussion. Three keep votes registered but no actual evidence to GNG being provided; only very vague assertions that it 'must' be notable. Also, as @Jay eyem: points out, some very bad faith comments by @Bring back Daz Sampson: against me and User:Fenix down which surely should be examined too. And canvassing and more bad faith against Fenix down Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 9 Spiderone 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- edit conflict There are a large number of sports club season articles on Wikipedia, many of which on their face violate WP:NOTSTATS because they're poorly written, but would pass WP:GNG if anyone would be bothered to update them. Unfortunately the football community has decided that WP:NSEASONS is an exclusionary standard and will delete these sorts of articles regardless of whether WP:GNG is met if the team isn't in the "correct league," the clearly stupidest of which IMO was the Leyton Orient season which clearly passed GNG for the year they played in the Conference, just because the Conference didn't pass the WP:NSEASONS test, meaning that we won't have a complete list of season articles for that particular club. (It's clearly stupid since I can go down to the newsagents and pick up several publications which cover that league in depth.) That being said, I'm not sure this belongs at ANI - I think this conduct is a bit disruptive, and I would politely ask Spiderone stop nominating these sorts of articles for deletion for a little while, but I'm not sure there's anything here that's sanctionable. This would be a better topic for an RfC. SportingFlyer T·C 12:55, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:Hjk1106 makes some good suggestions in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 London City Lionesses F.C. season as to how we can move forward with regard to women's football league articles. With ones like the Hungarian second division and other non-Anglophone leagues, I would strongly suggest that people utilise the draft space and Articles for Creation options really. I see no value in keeping articles like 2020–21 Kazincbarcikai SC season in the main space. I also agree that there are many low quality season articles that clearly don't show GNG but get a 'free pass' because of NSEASONS. This Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2017–18 Veria F.C. season is the only example I can find of one that actually got deleted but it was a very small discussion. Spiderone 13:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- These are all content issues. In other sports, articles which clearly fail WP:NOTSTATS on their face are still kept if they would pass WP:GNG. In Kazincbarcikai SC's case, that's a current season that is receiving [139] ongoing coverage (as an example, I haven't translated that article) so I'm less concerned about that, but these are all content problems (especially for non-English speaking countries) and not ANI issues. SportingFlyer T·C 13:30, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:Hjk1106 makes some good suggestions in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 London City Lionesses F.C. season as to how we can move forward with regard to women's football league articles. With ones like the Hungarian second division and other non-Anglophone leagues, I would strongly suggest that people utilise the draft space and Articles for Creation options really. I see no value in keeping articles like 2020–21 Kazincbarcikai SC season in the main space. I also agree that there are many low quality season articles that clearly don't show GNG but get a 'free pass' because of NSEASONS. This Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2017–18 Veria F.C. season is the only example I can find of one that actually got deleted but it was a very small discussion. Spiderone 13:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree with both @Demokra: and @SportingFlyer: I covered much the same ground at the DRV. I didn't raise an ANI myself because there is still time for Spiderone - he's only had sustained pushback from multiple editors over the past two weeks or so. Perhaps he hasn't realised the extent of the disruption? If he slows down it might help to show the community whether the issues outlined above are actually arising out of his lack of understanding or simple carelessness from bulk editing. Having said that, if he continues down the road of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND I suspect he will end up with a short enforced 'holiday' from making any further deletion nominations. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
If I am nominating too many articles for deletion, please can someone clarify what an acceptable number is? A WP:BEFORE search is always conducted and major contributors are always notified upon placing of a PROD or AfD. Please can someone quote the exact rule that I am breaking from Wikipedia's policy? People might dislike and take offence to some of the discussions I have started but that's all I have done. Start and contribute to discussions on an open forum. I haven't been abusive. I haven't flamed anyone. I haven't removed any posts from others. I've admitted to mistakes and changed my vote when appropriate evidence has been brought to me. If I am close to a ban then I at least need to be given clear guidance on how to avoid a ban, surely? Spiderone 14:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I see. Can you outline please exactly what steps you take on these alleged WP:BEFORE undertakings? Do you for example have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive, or its foreign equivalents? Are you seriously claiming to have carried out this rigorous process with each of the hundreds (thousands?) of articles you've recently nominated/proposed for deletion? Because the fact that you would nominate articles for deletion and then frequently find yourself voting keep, merge etc. in the discussion rather suggests you haven't done WP:BEFORE. Instead it suggests (to me) that you are relying on snap judgements - arising out of a dogmatic, black-white interpretation of some deeply flawed project-specific notability essays. Other editors have taken the time to patiently explain their concerns and you responded with a flippant "take it to DRV then". What are people supposed to think? I don't think anyone wants any bans we are just asking you to slow down and excercise a bit more discretion, to "dial it down a notch" in layman's terms. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 12:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)- Actually I've read a bit further down and essentially you've already agreed to do that, which is to your great credit. I apologise again if you felt I overstepped the mark with the use of words like 'crusade'. From my perspective I watch Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Women's football task force/Article alerts and there was a massive sudden uptick in deletions there, attributable mainly to you, which - not gonna lie - I found annoying. Hopefully we can all learn from this and work together fairly to ensure that notable articles are kept and non-notable ones flushed. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 13:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
This is completely absurd. These have all been regular deletion nominations, albeit sparse in their reasoning, with perfectly legitimate reasons for deletion. A WP:GNG failure IS a reason for deletion, no matter how many are nominated nor how frequently. Not only has a lack of citations satisfying WP:SIGCOV been demonstrated for many of these arguments, but no actual notability was shown. There is a process for appealing deletions, so the work is NOT gone forever. WP:FOOTY has maintained a list of leagues for which club seasons have presumed notability at WP:FPL for a long period of time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these nominations other than the sparse justifications, and this is a completely absurd thing to be bringing up at ANI. Jay eyem (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, FPL has nothing to do with seasons, it is for players. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 17:29, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- My understanding was that it was for both players to meet NFOOTY and for team seasons to meet NSEASONS. Jay eyem (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes NSEASONS is for seasons, so there is no need of mentioning FPL here. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I also tried to tell Jay eyem that WP:FPL has no bearing on NSEASONS. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 12:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes NSEASONS is for seasons, so there is no need of mentioning FPL here. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- My understanding was that it was for both players to meet NFOOTY and for team seasons to meet NSEASONS. Jay eyem (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Good news![citation needed] SportingFlyer and Spiderone have been working towards a resolution, which I thank them for.
Quoting from the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 London City Lionesses F.C. season:
- We should probably get rid of WP:NSEASONS as it's been fundamentally unhelpful in allowing us to figure out which seasons are notable, i.e. pass WP:GNG, and which seasons don't. [...]. SportingFlyer T·C 13:01, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm in support of ditching NSEASONS and using GNG alone Spiderone 13:22, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Even if we don't have the power to change that guideline, there are probably other ways of interpreting it regarding pro/amateur. It involves some lateral thinking – I mentioned in my first post, the U.S.-centric nature of the wording doesn't transfer well to other countries – but, the college sports section could be a workable equivalent for top-level amateur or semi-professional teams in other countries, perhaps.
(from WP:NSEASONS)
For college sports teams, weigh both the season itself and the sport (for example, if a US college or university's football and fencing teams enjoy the same level of success, the football team is likely to receive a significantly greater amount of coverage)
Cheers, Demokra (talk) 02:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- This doesn't really make sense to me. Guidelines exist for a reason: they exist to help guide our thinking about policy, and in this case whether or not a subject is notable. To that end, NSEASONS is useful because it gives presumed notability for a range of seasons. Where there is a larger disconnect as I see it is between WP:FPL and WP:NSEASONS, whereas the former is an essay about what the project considers "fully-professional", the latter is a guideline that simply uses the word "top professional leagues". There is definitely some room for ambiguity there, so I don't see a major issue here. And there is a pretty extensive consensus on what sort of team seasons merit inclusion when it comes to amateur and semi-pro for soccer: for college seasons, team seasons have presumed notability when they make the NCAA tournament (for Division I at least); semi-pro teams have no presumed notability. Jay eyem (talk) 16:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I have stated this before and I state it again, NFOOTY and NSEASONS are basically OP-ED pieces. They are ESSAYS and GUIDES but NOT POLICY. You can use then as a reference but NOT as a sole source reason to include or preclude an article from the encyclopedia. Take Spiderone's lead with regards to these articles and make a change in your own approach. If there is a legit notability surrounding these teams, leagues, athletes and seasons it should be our position to include them where we can. If they do not pass the primary notability policy then they should be out. The only place I leave room for doubt is in women's sports/topics and aboriginal/indigenous people/topics prior to 1970 and with just cause but that's subject of another debate and discussion we can have. If you are a nominator or !voter in an AfD and you do a search and find that the subject meets notability, whether that is included in the article or not, yet choose to move forward with a deletion then your discussion and !vote is disingenuous, without speculation as to why. The same can be said going the other way so I am not picking on those with deletionist tendencies but also inclusionist as well. There are editors who will add to an article, if given the chance, to bolster notability within the encyclopedia article. The key is that they are not notable because they have an article or it even proves notability in the article. They have to be notable without an article and regardless of what information is in the article. Again, articles can be improved. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Bad news!
Oh wait, there are more.
Note the distinct lack of rigour in the deletion process, and the near-identical patterns of posts by a few interested users.
These do not include deleted articles about other football subjects, or ones from before Sep 12.
This is from the PAST MONTH:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2004–05 Carlisle United F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2010–11 Darlington F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011 Sligo Rovers F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012 Derry City F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012 Bray Wanderers F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012 Shamrock Rovers F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012–13 Hereford United F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012–13 Stockport County F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Lokomotiv Tashkent season <- 2 votes
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 FC Istiklol season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Doncaster Rovers Belles L.F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014 Galway United F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014–15 BFC Siófok season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014–15 BFC Siófok season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014–15 FC Ajka season <- 2 votes
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 Drogheda United F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016–17 Recreativo de Huelva season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2017 Shelbourne F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018–19 Orapa United F.C. season
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2019%E2%80%9320_HNK_%C5%A0ibenik_season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Sheffield United W.F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Huddersfield Town Women FC season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Durham W.F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020 BFC Daugavpils season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Aberystwyth Town F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 FC Ajka season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Deportivo de La Coruña season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Budafoki MTE season* <- Nom. still open
... and there were more before that.
These were all articles that existed and were removed, often at the drop of a hat. Deletion is not a trivial matter. The reason, notability, has been widely disputed and misunderstood. Maybe it's fine to be pro-deletion in all cases, but this set of examples were not achieved by consensus, but by attrition.
Not commenting on a particular team (and not wanting to single out a user; I just think the deletionists should change their behaviour to be more constructive, as Spiderone has), but all of these articles need to be undeleted and reconsidered. Following from what Spiderone said today (below), I think a "GNG" tag would suffice, and then a discussion on an article Talk page. It needn't and shouldn't be a 7-day process, which heavily favours one outcome.
Thanks, Demokra (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Demokra: the only one, in my opinion, that should be restored straight to the mainspace is the Doncaster Belles one. Ones like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014–15 FC Ajka season and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2014–15 BFC Siófok season had almost zero content; even the squad lists, transfers and results were empty; they are potentially fine if someone works on them in the draft space although I have not yet spoken to anyone who has good sources that cover the Hungarian second division. I don't believe having articles with no sources or content/prose would be appropriate. I would have no prejudice against any of the above articles eventually returning to the mainspace but draft space might be the best place for some of them as, if users are happy to work on them, then they should be able to demonstrate GNG. 2011–12 Melbourne Victory W-League season, 2018–19 Melbourne Victory W-League season and 2015–16 FC Alashkert season are good examples of articles that were in an extremely poor state but have been improved to a state where it would be hard to argue anything other than a GNG pass. Because of WP:NOTSTATS, I think it's important for season articles to have some sourced prose and context. I've spoken to User:Klio654, who created a lot of the above articles, on their talk page. Spiderone 23:40, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Again, I kind of fail to see the issue here. Just on a glance, I recognize a lot of these teams as being from the Irish League, which is not considered "fully-professional" under WP:FPL. There has been virtually no dispute about these standards of notability in the past. There are always tons of deletion nominations at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football and it's usually just players with one or two appearances total or who haven't even played their first game. It's not always super active and most discussions usually only involve a few users. This really isn't anything out of the ordinary, I fail to see how this constitutes nuisance deletion nominations. Jay eyem (talk) 23:55, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Again, FPL is irrelevant for NSEASONS. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 08:03, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- And again no, it isn't. FPL is an essay used to determine assumed notability. It's not as strict as policy obviously, but it is what WP:FOOTY uses to determine notability for both players making professional debut and for team season articles. I can't see all of these old articles obviously, but I imagine most of the coverage was pretty routine and that there was a lack of significant coverage. That's pretty common for these sorts of deletion nominations, there is nothing about them that makes them nuisance nominations. Jay eyem (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- And again no, FPL is what WP:FOOTY uses to determine notability only for players, here we talk about league seasons!!!
- Feel free to take this up at WT:FOOTY and WT:FPL. And please sign your posts so I know who I am addressing. Jay eyem (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- I do not have to take anything anywhere, everything is clear, you should read the policies and essays again, FPL has nothing to do with NSEASONS, it is for players, so stop refering to it! Ludost Mlačani (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Use of an essay to pass off as policy is dangerous territory. If it passes WP:GNG, which is policy, then all the essays in the world mean nothing. The guidelines are for reference only, not to use as the sole-source of a decision or argument. The essays determine nothing, in fact, they themselves are riddled with phrases like "used as an aid" and "it is strongly recommended". Even the lists at WP:FPL specifically says it is incomplete. How can you use an incomplete list to justify the inclusion or exclusion of a league, team or season? That's why an element of common sense is required rather than a strict observance of policy and/or opinion.--Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:32, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- This really is just restating my points. Guidelines and essays are NOT policy, but they guide policy-decisions. They help determine how a policy might be understood and applied, but they are not the justification for deletion themselves. It's worth noting that these nominations are mostly used alongside a WP:GNG failure, which IS policy. So while the reasoning is usually more sparse than it could be, these nominations are perfectly legitimate. I don't see a common sense issue here. If nothing else, a lot of these could be redirected, which is perfectly in line with WP:NSEASONS. Jay eyem (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Want to clarify here real quick: WP:GNG itself is not policy, but nominating an article for deletion for failing WP:GNG IS policy. Jay eyem (talk) 17:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Feel free to take this up at WT:FOOTY and WT:FPL. And please sign your posts so I know who I am addressing. Jay eyem (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- And again no, FPL is what WP:FOOTY uses to determine notability only for players, here we talk about league seasons!!!
- It's also worth noting that many of the deleted articles were unsourced stats-only 'template' articles like 2020–21 Kazincbarcikai SC season. It almost looks as if someone accidentally posted it to the mainspace prematurely from draft. If people have an issue with deletion of these articles then maybe it's worth proposing that they redirect to the main club article or be sent to the draft space until such time that someone can prove that they meet GNG? People are having an issue with the use of NSEASONS but almost all of those articles (apart from the Doncaster Belles) had no evidence of GNG. Spiderone 09:01, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- NSEASONS clearly states that that "these articles almost always meet the notability requirements". You do not seem to respect that with all that nominations. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- And again no, it isn't. FPL is an essay used to determine assumed notability. It's not as strict as policy obviously, but it is what WP:FOOTY uses to determine notability for both players making professional debut and for team season articles. I can't see all of these old articles obviously, but I imagine most of the coverage was pretty routine and that there was a lack of significant coverage. That's pretty common for these sorts of deletion nominations, there is nothing about them that makes them nuisance nominations. Jay eyem (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I think this notice has served its purpose now, as to be fair there has been a sea-change in @Spiderone:'s attitude and behaviour. He's recognised that the WP:FOOTY shibboleth of "fully professional leagues" should be ignored altogether when dealing with female players. In another startling 180° turn, the other day he even voted !keep in an AfD for a female soccer player of pretty dubious notability. So this ANI report has undoubtedly served its purpose, although it's a shame it had to get to this stage for Spiderone to see the error of his ways. Especially when plenty of us tried to discuss it with him informally first. Still, I'm sure in future he will be more receptive to other editor's concerns and use this experience to improve as an editor going forward. Disappointingly @Fenix down: has gone the other way and 'doubled down', claiming that legitimate concerns over him closing discussions early, !supervoting and/or being openly not neutral are all "unfounded". And while there are still open questions over the WP:GANG antics of a handful of other WP:Football editors, they are probably disussions for another day. There doesn't seem much sense in dragging this (or the artifice below) out any longer. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 08:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Uncivil and bad faith behavior of User:Bring back Daz Sampson
The past week or so there has been consistent bad faith accusations and uncivil behavior at this user who has been consistently accusing others across multiple nominations. These have frequently involved @Spiderone: making a variety of deletion nomination for football articles, including some articles about women's football. Some of the examples include:
From Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 9
- Describing the deletions as a "purge", suggesting underlying motives of nominator (diff)
- Describing an editor as embarking on "a large scale campaign to delete women's football articles" (diff)
- Dismissively ignoring the argument made by a user related to team seasons vs. league seasons (diff)
From Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 London City Lionesses F.C. season
- Consistently describing dissenting votes as "footy lads", "WP:FOOTBALL lads", etc. (diff)
- Canvassing a vote for a deletion review (diff)
- Describing deletion nominations as a "sad and pathetic crusade to purge women's soccer articles" (diff)
- Stating, without basis, that a user "clearly vehemently hates women's football" (diff)
- Complete lack of faith in other editors, demonstrated most clearly here (diff)
- Describing a regularly maintained (albeit, fairly, not well documented) essay describing fully-professional leagues as a "bullshit essay" (diff)
From Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011–12 Melbourne Victory W-League season
- Continuing to describe those participating deletion nominations as the "usual suspects" rather than addressing the argument (diff)
From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red
- Continuing to describe editors citing WP:FPL as members of a "tiny cabal of 'football lads'" (diff)
- Describing deletion nominations as a "very sinister purge of women's football articles" (diff)
- Describing a closing admin as a "card-carrying memeber of the stuffy boy's club at WP:FOOTY" (diff)
- Additional canvassing (diff)
This is completely inexcusable behavior. The individual usually on the receiving end of these comments, Spiderone, appears to be making regular, albeit quite frequent and sparse, deletion nominations, which have not been solely dedicated to women's football. Describing these as a "purge" is not only inaccurate, but completely absurd and inflammatory. Describing regular editors at WP:FOOTY as a cabal, a group of "football lads", and a "stuffy boy's club" are. completely unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Canvassing individual editors to make comments at a deletion review is highly inappropriate. And simply stating, without basis, that a user "vehemently hates women's football"? Inexcusable behavior and clear violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Jay eyem (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
NOTE I was initially unaware that I needed to post on the user's talk page (despite it being bolded in red at the top, this is my first time really using ANI). The mistake has been rectified. Jay eyem (talk) 15:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Personally I think a topic ban from deletion-related discussions is in order. BBDS has shown over the course of many years (including her previous incarnation as Clavdia chauchat – see this previous ANI discussion that ended in her being blocked for incivility and subseuqently inoking her right to vanish) that she is incapable of engaging in discussions without resorting to casting aspersions, insulting other editors or making misleading and intellectually dishonest statements. Number 57 16:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support topic ban from deletion discussions as proposed by N57. GiantSnowman 16:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support topic ban as proposed by Number57. These accusations and personal attacks are the same behaviour as in the previous account. Clearly nothing has been learnt. Reyk YO! 16:39, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support - too much incivility surrounding AFDs. Lev!vich 16:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I remember in January 2019, when Daz made personal attacks in an arbcom case and was called on it, Daz replied "Just calling it as I see it - as is my right as a neutral editor in good standing" [140]. I remember asking Daz to cool it with personal attacks at AFDs in May 2019 [141] and June 2019 [142]. The personal attacks in the October 2020 DRV shows no improvement over the last almost-two-years. Daz's comment below shows that even after this thread, they have no intention to change their approach. Upgrading my support to strong support of a TBAN. We have to clean up AFDs, we have to start removing problematic editors from that area. Lev!vich 16:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't agree with this - the football project has long struggled with women's football, and I don't think it's uncivil to call this out or be frustrated by it. A topic ban would only further serve to wall the garden. A warning is sufficient. SportingFlyer T·C 17:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support - Just from the original AFD discussion, there is a string or casting aspersions and personal attacks - this is not behaviour that is compatible with working in a collaborative environment. I would at least think a topic ban from AFDs is required, and possibly something wider ranging.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't looked into everything about this editor's behaviour, but must point out that any discussion of football topics, whether for players or seasons, seems to be based on whether a league is "fully professional" or not rather than the notability of the player or season in question. I realise that there are many sunken costs here, as many people have spent a lot of time on checking whether a league is fully professional, but can't we start looking at the notability of article subjects rather than an irrelevant issue about leagues? We currently have the absurd situation where, in the men's game here in England, we accept articles about players and seasons in 92 clubs as automatically notable, but in the women's game none before 2018, and in the rest of the world outside England and the United States none at all. We also have small countries such as Georgia, where there is a very big club, Dynamo Tbilisi, where players and seasons are far more notable than in any club in League Two, but are excluded from notability because some other teams in the league are not fully professional, which is nothing to do with those topics or that club. Surely it has been obvious for many years that this criterion is both Anglo-centric and sexist, and is not fit for purpose? It seems that anyone who asks this question is labelled as disruptive, as I'm sure I will be for making this comment. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment is not disruptive at all, but it does show a fundamental ignorance about how NFOOTBALL etc. actually work. It's all based on a presumption of notability. If women's articles meet GNG, then they will be (and indeed are) notable and therefore kept at AFDs. GiantSnowman 19:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, it is not a fundamental ignorance of anything. Nearly all deletion discussions of articles about footballers or seasons concentrate on whether the league is fully professional or not, rather than sources actually about the article subject. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment is not disruptive at all, but it does show a fundamental ignorance about how NFOOTBALL etc. actually work. It's all based on a presumption of notability. If women's articles meet GNG, then they will be (and indeed are) notable and therefore kept at AFDs. GiantSnowman 19:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment
This is at risk of becoming a proxy "delete vs keep" debate, but maybe that's no bad thing. It should probably be seen in that context. This issue was brought here 3 hours after the deletions were (in the section above). All of the first 6 commenters here, from Jay down to SportingFlyer, have also taken one side or the other at least once in those unresolved Deletion discussions we invoked earlier – I've done so as well. I certainly don't feel I would really be neutral on this.
Hopefully some 'disinterested' admins can come up with an answer or mediation (I've called a few but they haven't shown up yet). I can't condone Daz's uncivil tone, but they evidently felt that the women's team articles were being attacked and valid arguments ignored. As mentioned by Phil, the site generally has some history of selective sexism about sports articles; both Doncaster and Melbourne have been significant clubs in the women's game, and I think most of us now realise deletion wasn't the best first step.
There are some new suggestions from both SportingFlyer and Spiderone, re: WP:NSPORTS, which I think are very promising. (Mentioned in section above.)
Demokra (talk) 02:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've been disappointed by some of the callous accusations but I agree that we need to move forward. Whilst I'm not planning to abstain from participating in AfDs, I have changed my approach. Rather than going straight to PROD/AfD, I'm choosing to put a GNG tag on some of the other articles that I felt didn't meet our notability requirements and will leave them with just that for the next few months. Hopefully, this gives the editors keen on keeping those articles a chance to prove they meet GNG as User:Hack did with 2011–12 Melbourne Victory W-League season, a discussion that will end with me having egg on my face! I hope that we can agree that there are certainly some occasions, still, with both men's and women's articles, when deletion was the only valid option (see here and here). Moving forward, I will try to focus more on GNG, especially when it comes to the women's football articles where NSEASONS and NFOOTY are practically moot. Spiderone 07:10, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Civility is important. I never condone incivility but civility itself is also a relative term depending on who it is that is using it. President Andrew Jackson believed the Indian Removal Act was civility. He believed he was "saving" entire cultures from destruction by moving them to territory where he believed they would be able to grow and sustain themselves without colonial/American intervention. Some question his motives. The results are mixed at best. I certainly would have a few questions myself had I been given the chance. My questions and opinions would have been largely ignored and definitely suppressed because I am a woman and that was the way of it during that time. The point is that American Indians didn't view it that way. When one is fighting for what they believe in they tend to view their own position as "the moral high ground". I will address the complaints and give my perspective. Take it for what it is.
- Name calling/"bad faith" comments: I will go out on a limb here. I also repeated the position and even took the same as Daz at times. Whether it was intended to be that way, they aren't necessarily wrong about a purge. And they aren't wrong that it seems those engaged in WP:NFOOTY use fraternity like tactics in AfD's by following each other around and nominating and !voting together. I digress, some say they aren't, some say they are. In the end it doesn't matter and it isn't helpful to the encyclopedia at large to continue to refer to them as that. I am, however, very concerned about the practice of deletionist in Wikipedia. How many admins and editors have the number of AfD's they have made/won on their user page as something like a trophy? I saw one editor who actually keeps track of deletions versus creations and laments when the number of deletions doesn't outpace creations. I have had one self describe as a champion for keeping the encyclopedia pure in regards to a vote to delete an article concerning women. Name calling is never right, even though I have done it too. I admit it. Neither is this approach by editors/admins to infer that the encyclopedia is more pure because an article that many found useful and worthy enough to fight for has been deleted. When it comes to the two main genders, male and female, not to exclude others, I have no doubt more articles on men are probably deleted every year. I don't have figures here in front of me but I would be willing to bet there are a considerable amount more men's articles than women's articles. The deletion of women's articles hits our community harder because of the disparity between the two figures. If you are going to censor Daz then you probably need to look at quite a few others comments but I caution you, if your house is made of glass you probably shouldn't be throwing stones. Might be better to move forward with lessons learned.
- Canvassing: I don't view Daz as canvassing anything by trying to get the word out about such deletion nominations. I appreciate them posting it on the projects talk page. There are a lot of issues here on Wikipedia, especially in regards to topics on women and specifically in regards to indigenous/aboriginal people. What constitutes a purge? Five articles? Ten? Twenty? The issue I have seen most on here is when an editor uses their subjective opinion of an essay to pass off as policy. There is enough subjective use of the general notability policy without us deleting articles because of our interpretation/application of an essay. Asking for others to weigh in and giving your opinion is not canvassing. Daz has never written me and asked me to vote a certain way and any discussion has been left to talk pages where it is in the open and dissenting views can be expressed.
In the end, I would like to assume good faith on the part of every editor. But not every editor makes their decisions in good faith. Unfortunately, a lot of editors and even some admins counter the good faith argument by giving us reason not to trust their judgement. Time will tell and I can't be everywhere but I will challenge most deletions on articles about women and indigenous people when I find that they are notable subjects and regardless of what is specifically mentioned in the article. If I run across sources in the process then I will either add them or notify others. I will not apologize for defending an article even when others don't like what I have said. We aren't here to be friends and sing Kumbaya around a camp fire. If you can't stand your view point and subjective opinions being challenged then maybe being here isn't all that good for your psyche. Civility is a noble cause and we should be civil but some of us view any number of rapid deletions of subjects we may be passionate about as incivility in and of itself. That's a topic of debate I am willing to discuss. Ultimately, Spiderzone says they will try a different approach. I am good with that. I am also good with Daz challenging said approach when there is just cause. I may even side with Spiderzone as I have in the past. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note I did not bring up the discussion about fully vs any other type of professional because it is simply incorrect in every application of the sense. The reasons have already been supplied in my comments prior to this.--Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note
From my list in the section above, these are some more women's articles that were nominated and/or deleted, apart from Millwall London City Lionesses.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Doncaster Rovers Belles L.F.C. season
- Also including 2012 Doncaster Rovers Belles L.F.C. season
- Also including 2011 Doncaster Rovers Belles L.F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Sheffield United W.F.C. season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Huddersfield Town Women FC season
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Durham W.F.C. season
- Also including 2019–20 Durham W.F.C. season
- Also including 2018–19 Durham W.F.C. season
I've made my feelings clear about the shoddiness of this process (in the previous section). The wave of deletions wasn't specifically anti-women's soccer, but it could be seen as such if you weren't following all the men's team deletions, which I personally was unaware of until yesterday - had to look it up and was shocked by how many were deleted.
Thanks, Demokra (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- These season articles are created by the hundreds using scripts. They're deleted by the dozen, which doesn't make a dent. It's all a giant waste of time, but it's some people's harmless hobby. I wouldn't get too worried about the deletion of a sports season article. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference whatsoever to anyone. (Except for the dozen or so people creating and deleting these articles.) Lev!vich 14:12, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- The use of the word "harmless" and "grand scheme' and "makes no difference" sounds a lot like "let's make a treaty". It doesn't matter to you. We understand that. That's ok. Everyone has their preference. It matters to some of us though. It's emblematic of the encyclopedia as a whole. We should not take delight in deleting articles for anyone, much less women, and where we can we should fight against the exclusion of them, with justification for doing it and the use of common sense. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support topic ban - It seems that Daz is refusing to take advice to stick to PAGs and instead will continue to personlize deletion disputes. This diff shows that he is still going after spiderone and intends to keep attacking supposed members of a footy cabal.AlmostFrancis (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Footy project has some serious issues with discrimination and inequality. This is not the right way to handle the justified objections. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 12:25, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree, @Ludost Mlačani: It sometimes seems that WP:FOOTY is to gender balance what the 1997–98 Kent Football League is to notability! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 12:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose (as the target of this section). There seems to be a bit of "tit for tat" here and a transparent attempt to derail the actual discussion. I've seen plenty of trumped-up finger pointing at ANI over the years. Usually editors trying to cause needless drama to gain the upper hand in a content dispute. And I can only think that's the motive for this palpable nonsense. Yes I commented in a few nominations; so did you, Einstein. If using the informal mode of address "lad" is to be considered a personal attack or "ad hominem" I think we can all pack up and go home. That's stretching the definition of WP:NPA to be so elastic as to be completely meaningless. Two editors discussing whether to start a DRV and then doing it is not "canvassing", it is good practice. Perhaps if Spiderone had sought advice before his scattergun approach to deletion nominations none of us would be here wasting our time on this. Your characterisation of my interaction with Number57 is bizarre. Note that I pointed out an apparent contradiction in his position, he flamed me (with the diatribe about "intellectual dishonesty") then my reply to him was a model of restraint. I won't comment on the rest of the tenuous guff you've cobbled together but it seems to continue in much the same vein. Look, the last time I checked it is still allowed to disagree with Project-specific notability essays, especially ones as outdated, misused and perennially contentious as this one. Plenty of us do. I can't really help it if half a dozen editors identify with it so strongly that they take all criticism personally and become wildly offended. More likely I think they pretend to be offended to try and put a chilling effect on any dissent towards their local consensus. Nothing I'm supposed to have done is worthy of comment, let alone sanction. I'm confident that any fair reviewer will recognise that. But it's interesting you present yourself as a neutral onlooker here. Even before I turned up you were offered guidance on the matter by a veteran editor, which you thumbed your nose at. If anything your one-sided approach has been belligerent and bordering on hysterical, culminating in this vexatious drivel, which I wasn't notified of until several days afterwards. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 12:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support topic ban I was willing to give the individual the benefit of the doubt to defend themselves before !voting, and now that they have responded I believe my initial post has been confirmed. More ad hominem attacks ("Einstein", defending "football lads"), ignoring the definition of canvassing (vote-stacking, as defined on the page), continuing to ignore their rude behavior towards other editors (e.g. the Number 57 interaction), suggesting that I "thumbed my nose up" at an individual whom I actually engaged on my talk page, and describing my presenting this at ANI as "hysterical... vexatious drivel". I apologize for not notifying the editor immediately (again, my first time using ANI), but this just confirms the inexcusable uncivil behavior by this editor and continued lack of good faith shown. Jay eyem (talk) 15:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban When will Wikipedia leadership start looking at the referenced deletion discussions and the patterns of many of the editors here who are proposing a topic ban aka targeting the same editor and women's football articles in general? I'm not sure what the obsession is about - it's rather comical, really -- but indeed an old and quickly decaying pattern on an equally aging platform. Surely, there are more productive things to do in life and on Wikipedia. Hmlarson (talk) 19:13, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - Wikipedia's systemic bias against coverage of women's subjects is no better exemplified nor more infamous than in our grossly out-of-balance guidelines on "PrOfEsSiOnAl" football leagues, which as others have said in both more and less colourful terms, are bullshit. Here we have another very small group of editors claiming this bullshit guideline as a justification for erasing every bit of information anyone has ever written here on football teams/leagues/players who are not men, and whining to administrators when anybody notices. Daz's pointed commentaries on this phenomenon are fair comment; you're supposed to be offended when this crap happens. Counter-proposal: the proposers of this topic ban are themselves banned from the subject of women's football. That would both stop the disruption and improve the encyclopedia. And can we please trash that garbage guideline once and for all? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:45, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Agree and further, WP:FPL is an essay with years of evidence of "ownership" behaviors exhibited by some of these same editors here attempting to silence BBDS again (just look at the edit history). See also WP:BULLY. Hmlarson (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think in football parlance some of the lads can "dish it out but not take it". They expect to foul with impunity themselves but when faced with a robust challenge in return they roll about on the ground, feigning injury and squealing to the referee! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 09:02, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is completely absurd. It has already been demonstrated that the user originally accused (Spiderone) was not targeting women's football, and that many of the deletion arguments were legitimate, albeit sparse. There is nothing about Bring back Daz Sampson's comments that comprise a "fair comment"; slinging ad hominems while contributing nothing to the discussion (as they have done once again, immediately above my comment), canvassing editors, and continued lack of demonstration of good faith. There are perfectly legitimate ways to debate these issues without stopping to that level. You seriously think a counter-ban is what's necessary here? You have no issues with how Bring back Daz Sampson has behaved? You're not at all concerned that they have a demonstrated history with these issues? Jay eyem (talk) 20:04, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- Agree and further, WP:FPL is an essay with years of evidence of "ownership" behaviors exhibited by some of these same editors here attempting to silence BBDS again (just look at the edit history). See also WP:BULLY. Hmlarson (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. The proposed ban is not warranted based on the record presented. Cbl62 (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Propose boomerang
- This isn't a !vote, and you don't get to comment in your own proposal. ANI is for "serious, intractable" emergency stuff worthy of a block. What you're whining about here is very low-level "rudeness" (a lack of deference, in reality) Even my detractors in the football project aren't arguing for a block but a sort of one-way interaction ban, in a very narrow subset of soccer deletion discussions. Therefore the appropriate place for this 'complaint' would have been WP:AN or dispute resolution, not WP:ANI. Although, like I said before, the timing of it makes it clear it is a phoney complaint intended to silence me and open up a new front in the above content dispute. I've noticed that all across the recent AfDs you have been repeatedly and aggressively rebutting others' !votes, complaining of imaginary personal attacks and generally trying to dominate and control the discussions. Demanding everyone else "show good faith" while you endlessly pontificate your opinion over and over! It is beginning to look oppressive. If I were you I would be wary of my own actions coming under scrutiny here. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 19:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- At no point did I propose a topic ban. This was done by Number 57. And given how massively disruptive you have been at the AfDs on which you have been commenting, I think it merits attention. And reubtting points made against myself is perfectly legitimate argumentation. Literally the point of AfD is to make arguments on whether or not an article should be kept. Comparing my actions to yours is completely absurd. Your slinging of ad hominems and hostile tone, while frequently contributing nothing to discussion, is not comparable to my rebutting points made in an AfD. Jay eyem (talk) 21:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also, if you wanted to look through the diffs, you will notice that I did not initially attach this complaint to this discussion; it was added as such later by an uninvolved individual. Claiming that I am trying to "silence [you] and open up a new front in the above content dispute" is completely absurd and continued showing of bad faith. Jay eyem (talk) 21:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- You had ample opportunity to raise your concerns in a more appropriate way before the ANI report on Spiderone, but did it here in direct response: so it looks to me like a childish tit-for-tat. Anyway, your continued activity at the AfDs is much more disruptive than any of the nonsense allegations I'm supposed to have perpetrated, like calling lads lads or engaging in non-canvassing canvassing. The point of the AfDs is to garner a wide perspective of views, even if we disagree with them. It's not for you to tell us over and over again about your opinion while miring the process in false allegations, bogus victimhood and needless drama. It's not just me you've falsely accused of bad faith and personal attacks, and the routine is beginning to wear thin. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Here is the diff showing my initial post on ANI. Here and here is the uninvolved user incorporating it into this argument. The diffs are clear, that wasn't my doing. And yes, your abusive language and bad faith arguments had gotten to the point where I felt it was necessary to bring it up at ANI, and it appears my concerns are shared. As Number 57 noted, this is not your first time dealing with issues like this. Responding to questions with reasoning is not bludgeoning. Linking individual users to a discussion is the clear definition of vote-stacking, which is covered under WP:CANVASS. You have, and continue to demonstrate a clear pattern of disruptive editing, and this "boomerang proposal" is another pretty clear example of that. No idea what you are proposing here. If an uninvolved admin would let me know, that would be helpful. Jay eyem (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- You had ample opportunity to raise your concerns in a more appropriate way before the ANI report on Spiderone, but did it here in direct response: so it looks to me like a childish tit-for-tat. Anyway, your continued activity at the AfDs is much more disruptive than any of the nonsense allegations I'm supposed to have perpetrated, like calling lads lads or engaging in non-canvassing canvassing. The point of the AfDs is to garner a wide perspective of views, even if we disagree with them. It's not for you to tell us over and over again about your opinion while miring the process in false allegations, bogus victimhood and needless drama. It's not just me you've falsely accused of bad faith and personal attacks, and the routine is beginning to wear thin. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- This isn't a !vote, and you don't get to comment in your own proposal. ANI is for "serious, intractable" emergency stuff worthy of a block. What you're whining about here is very low-level "rudeness" (a lack of deference, in reality) Even my detractors in the football project aren't arguing for a block but a sort of one-way interaction ban, in a very narrow subset of soccer deletion discussions. Therefore the appropriate place for this 'complaint' would have been WP:AN or dispute resolution, not WP:ANI. Although, like I said before, the timing of it makes it clear it is a phoney complaint intended to silence me and open up a new front in the above content dispute. I've noticed that all across the recent AfDs you have been repeatedly and aggressively rebutting others' !votes, complaining of imaginary personal attacks and generally trying to dominate and control the discussions. Demanding everyone else "show good faith" while you endlessly pontificate your opinion over and over! It is beginning to look oppressive. If I were you I would be wary of my own actions coming under scrutiny here. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 19:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Verbal attack and deliberate re-introduction of unreliable sources by multi-time blocked user
| (non-admin closure) Blocked. Darkknight2149 07:59, 28 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In a WP:POINT edit, 151.228.141.110 deliberately reintroducted unreliable sources that I had removed, while directing a verbal attack toward myself.[143] This user, who edits professional wrestling articles via the Sky ISP – with his "work" typically revolving around what wrestling writer Vince Russo said or did – has twice left similar insults on my talk page, along with abusing several other editors (calling people "pathetic" and "trolls" is his MO, as with tonight).[144][145] Both of those IPs were blocked (as was his sock account, R.Gadona), and I request that 151.228.141.110 be also. Thanks. Dory Funk (talk) 18:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Tvaughan1
- Tvaughan1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Tvaughan1 registered in 2006 but has fewer than 600 edits. Over 50 of those are at talk:Hunter Biden, and combine the usual mess of "Russia hoax", unreliable sources, belligerence and a few copyright violations revdeleted by EvergreenFir.
Given the current meltdown in the conservative media over the failure of the Hunter Biden "October surprise", I think the chances are that if he isn't guided firmly quite soon then he'll end up blocked. There are a couple of others at that talk page who are also long on outrage and short on actionable proposals for content, but I expect that will die down in time. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:35, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've engaged in a good faith effort on the talk page to reach a consensus on WP:NPOV edits to Hunter Biden. Most of my efforts are from months ago and they've been archived. Quoting relevant passages of a newspaper article on a talk page, with attribution should not be considered a copyright violation.I'm not the only Wikipedia editor or person who has pointed out that Hunter Biden is far from WP:NPOV. It's embarrassingly obvious to all but the most partisan. In fact, describing the situation as "meltdown in the conservative media over the failure of the Hunter Biden "October surprise"" proves my point. There is a social media and news blackout on that story, and that has become a story in and of itself. Does the laptop not exist? Is it not notable? Are there not reliable sources reporting the existence of the laptop, and corroborating the authenticity of the contents? These facts may be uncomfortable to partisans, but they're widely known and widely reported facts. To defend blocking mention of the laptop Wikipedia editors are citing debunked theories of a Russian disinformation campaign, with no proof whatsoever (at best citing opinions that it must be or could be Russian disinformation). An accurate summary of the controversy surrounding Hunter Biden would mention the concerns of a conflict of interest, at a minimum. Censoring speech isn't the way for Wikipedia to go. The main topic is and has been hotly debated in the US and worldwide, but the article presents only a 1 sided view. This article has been the subject of a number of news stories about Wikipedia's left leaning bias. Tvaughan1 (talk) 20:21, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Tvaughan1, oh do please let us know which reliable sources you think are complaining about our "left wing bias" on this. Breitbart? Redstate? Conservapedia? 4chan? Guy(help! - typo?) 20:43, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, you're being argumentative. But surely you must have seen this blog post from the co-founder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanger. https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/ Tvaughan1 (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Tvaughan1, oh do please let us know which reliable sources you think are complaining about our "left wing bias" on this. Breitbart? Redstate? Conservapedia? 4chan? Guy(help! - typo?) 20:43, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- My observation is that Tvaughan1 seems to ignore Wikipedia:Reliable sources policy heavily. They have been making edits in the talk page that are up to the line, if not over the line, crossing Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy to do so. At Talk:Hunter Biden#Chinese Communist Party they have made these edits by "sourcing" to multiple sites that are considered unreliable and marked in red on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources including RT (TV network), The Post Millennial, and Breitbart News which "has published a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories" and "should not be used, ever, as a reference for facts, due to its unreliability." I am also concerned about the potential connection to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/NationalInterest16 but I had previously asked a different administrator for their advice before JzG posted this discussion here. The specific edit with the bad sourcing is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHunter_Biden&type=revision&diff=984976350&oldid=984975986IHateAccounts (talk) 20:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- I made a point on the talk page that it has become an external news story that Wikipedia is biased - specifically because of Hunter Biden, and I linked to a set of articles to make that point to other editors, for their information, on a talk page. I wasn't attempting to cite those articles in a Wikipedia article itself. Accusing me of violating WP:RS for pointing that out is disingenuous. I have no connection to NationalInterest16.Tvaughan1 (talk) 21:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- My observation is that Tvaughan1 seems to ignore Wikipedia:Reliable sources policy heavily. They have been making edits in the talk page that are up to the line, if not over the line, crossing Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy to do so. At Talk:Hunter Biden#Chinese Communist Party they have made these edits by "sourcing" to multiple sites that are considered unreliable and marked in red on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources including RT (TV network), The Post Millennial, and Breitbart News which "has published a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories" and "should not be used, ever, as a reference for facts, due to its unreliability." I am also concerned about the potential connection to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/NationalInterest16 but I had previously asked a different administrator for their advice before JzG posted this discussion here. The specific edit with the bad sourcing is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHunter_Biden&type=revision&diff=984976350&oldid=984975986IHateAccounts (talk) 20:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Tvaughan1, how can a non-governmental organization ever engage in "censorship"? Please explain your understanding of what constitutes "censorship." Please do not use epithets, perjorative adjectives, or other non-neutral language. Thanks. - Julietdeltalima(talk) 21:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Julietdeltalima According to Wikipedia, "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies." I agree with that definition.Tvaughan1 (talk) 21:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Tvaughan1, how can a non-governmental organization ever engage in "censorship"? Please explain your understanding of what constitutes "censorship." Please do not use epithets, perjorative adjectives, or other non-neutral language. Thanks. - Julietdeltalima(talk) 21:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Julietdeltalima—you refer to
"non-neutral language"
but I think it is virtually axiomatic that any time there is a debate there will be some"non-neutral language"
. Bus stop (talk) 06:18, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Julietdeltalima—you refer to
- IHateAccounts, Larry Sanger thinks we should be more complimentary towards creationism. He’s tried to replace Wikipedia with something better and failed. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Ok so I've been trying to figure this out. Larry Sanger believes that false balance and the use of dubious sources known to fabricate and violate basic journalistic ethical standards are necessary for a "neutral point of view"? He's angry because debunked nonsense and buzzwords for talk radio, like "Solyndra" or "Benghazi", aren't 99% of the coverage on Barack Obama? Who is this Larry Sanger, and why should we care what he rants about on his blog? IHateAccounts (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Larry is an important former employee of Wikipedia, who helped set it up, but then left Wikipedia. In recent years he has veered towards accusing Wikipedia of being biased, and going by his Twitter account, he appears to endorse the QAnon theory, the "Antifa is a real problem" theory and some other nutty theories (I think he even claimed that climate change is not caused by humans). 45.251.33.147 (talk) 03:45, 24 October 2020 (UTC) Last rephrased at 17:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- That'd be Larry Sanger. As 45.251 says, I think his own radicalization towards the right and acceptance of the right-wing talking points and conspiracy theories has led him to believe that Wikipedia has been infiltrated by the left and all of that nonsense. See for yourself, but brace yourself. He seems to think that because we call conspiracy theories conspiracy theories, and don't treat fringe theories the same as we do mainstream scientific opinion, the project is "badly biased". GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- GorillaWarfare—couldn't
"acceptance of the right-wing talking points"
be restated as nonacceptance of left-wing talking points? Bus stop (talk) 18:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)- No. I'm referring to things like his QAnon-esque claims around secret child sex trafficking rings etc., which is not "nonacceptance of left-wing talking points". GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- GorillaWarfare—couldn't
- Are you suggesting that he alleged that Wikipedia is a
"secret child sex trafficking ring"
? I might have missed some of the relevant material but I thought Sanger's objection was to images on this project of young girls in sexually suggestive and revealing poses. But maybe I got that wrong. Can you provide sources for"claims around secret child sex trafficking rings"
? Bus stop (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2020 (UTC)- Go look at Sanger's twitter if you want to wade through some right-wing conspiracy crap and stop trolling here please. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that he alleged that Wikipedia is a
- Only in death—I do not consider the views that I've read emanating from Larry Sanger to be
"right-wing conspiracy crap"
. Bus stop (talk) 16:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Only in death—I do not consider the views that I've read emanating from Larry Sanger to be
- He also thought Citizendium would work, so that should tell you what you need to know right there. His bio says he's 52 but if that's really true there's something seriously wrong . He looks like Methuselah [146]. EEng 05:13, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think Sanger offers good constructive criticism of Wikipedia:
"There is a rewritten policy, but it endorses the utterly bankrupt canard that journalists should avoid what they call 'false balance'. The notion that we should avoid 'false balance' is directly contradictory to the original neutrality policy.
[147]Bus stop (talk) 05:57, 24 October 2020 (UTC)- Huh. Turns out Larry Sanger doesn't know what the word canard means. EEng 06:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Reed College's department of Philosophy has a lot of explaining to do. —valereee (talk) 14:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sanger wants people to buy a book called Essays on Free Knowledge? Narky Blert (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- So... basically, Sanger is an Almond Joy and not a Mounds? IHateAccounts (talk) 16:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps some kind of performance art. EEng 16:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sanger wants people to buy a book called Essays on Free Knowledge? Narky Blert (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- EEng see also Wikipedia's policy on canards... Guy (help! - typo?) 12:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Reed College's department of Philosophy has a lot of explaining to do. —valereee (talk) 14:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Huh. Turns out Larry Sanger doesn't know what the word canard means. EEng 06:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't have time to fully investigate this at the moment but can anyone suggest a reason why I should not topic ban Tvaughan1 from American politics for a month per the report above, under WP:ARBAP2? Johnuniq (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: I've given Tvaughan1 some advice for how they can best move forward in their situation. Full disclaimer: I have no idea what is going on with this laptop thing or whatever. I think cocaine might have been involved? I'm not sure I want to know exactly. Either way, I have no idea if Tvaughan1 is advocating for something WP:FRINGE or just WP:POV, but I've assumed the latter given the discussion here. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 07:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Copyright violations
Tvaughan1 I thought I'd start a subsection on this topic. FWIW, the copyvios are because of the amount of copy-pasted text. One to three sentences would be okay. But in the second case you copy-pasted nearly 50% of the article's content. I understand why you did it, and you were right in providing the source and putting things in quotes. But WP:COPYVIO's instructions on fair use directs us to use as little as possible to convey our point. IMO, when you're using more than 10% of a source directly, you're veering into copyvio territory. In the future, please limit copy-paste and use your own summaries (which readers can verify with the linked source). EvergreenFir (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have read and I understand WP:COPYVIO but certainly a bit more leeway to quote articles should be given on a talk page, versus pasting quotes into the articles themselves. Given the defensive responses to every attempt I and others made to source facts, I doubted that a paraphrased summary would suffice. But I'll do as you suggest moving forward.Tvaughan1 (talk) 23:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- JzG—I don't know how you are starting this out by saying
"Given the current meltdown in the conservative media over the failure of the Hunter Biden 'October surprise', I think the chances are that if he isn't guided firmly quite soon then he'll end up blocked."
Has there been a"meltdown in the conservative media"
? Has there been an"October surprise"
? These are expressions of your political views. You are imposing your own lens on current events. Why would Tvaughan1"end up blocked"
? Certainly not as a consequence of the differing political views that you each have presented. I should think that they would be blocked only if they are found to be severely in violation of our policies. Bus stop (talk) 05:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)- There has in fact been a meltdown in conservative media. And yes, there's an October Surprise. "The Times reported last January that Burisma had been hacked by the same Russian GRU unit that was one of two groups that hacked the Democratic National Committee in 2016. Last month, United States intelligence analysts contacted several people with knowledge of the Burisma hack for further information after they had picked up chatter that stolen Burisma emails would be leaked in the form of an “October surprise.”" https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/us/politics/hunter-biden-ukraine-facebook-twitter.html
- I think the only way to describe your reply to JzG is "willfully obtuse." IHateAccounts (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Another Reliable Source on this: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/24/trump-maga-hunter-biden-conspiracy-432046 IHateAccounts (talk) 16:39, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know if it does count as wilfully obtuse. It's pretty clear that the conservative media bubble is telling a very consistent, though largely counterfactual, story. It's like the "Russia hoax": a walled garden of sources discuss Russian interference in the 2016 election as if the problems with the Steele dossier somehow invalidate not only the entire Mueller report, but also the contemporaneous findings of intelligence agencies throughout the West, the subsequent bipartisan committee findings in both Senate and House, and the numerous convictions and indictments. There's a clear Trumpist narrative promoted by loyalists, and a separate factual narrative in the reality-based media. Reports this weekend show the hard news reporters at the WSJ, for example, contradicting the opinion writers, exactly as they do on climate change. If you get your news from the conservative bubble, you've been told that mainstream is the opposite of conservative, and that all mainstream sources are biased against Trump because they do not reflect the faux-reality you're being fed. Of course anyone who is not capable of understanding that has a serious problem here because we know that the opposite of conservative is liberal and the opposite of mainstream is fringe. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:22, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- As Joe Biden would say, c'mon. You are expected to maintain at least a veneer of objectivity, JzG. Now you blithely refer to the
"conservative media bubble"
. How is this unlike your reference below to Andy Ngo as a"neo-fascist apologist"
.[148] If you are going to conduct yourself like this on a Talk page aren't also prone to creating articles that are skewed to your political interests? Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 25 October 2020 (UTC)- Bus stop we're also expected to understand the difference between objectivity and false balance. Reality is not the average of mainstream sources and media bubble bullshit. We don't split the difference between reality-based sources and left-wing anti-vaccine and anti-GMO propaganda, and we don't split the difference between mainstream reporting and the Breitbart narrative on this either. Mainstream sources are very clear: nothing about "laptopgate" stacks up. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:15, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- As Joe Biden would say, c'mon. You are expected to maintain at least a veneer of objectivity, JzG. Now you blithely refer to the
WP:LTA at multiple Asian tourism articles
- Tourism in the Philippines
- Tourism in Myanmar
- Tourism in Laos
- Tourism in Cambodia
- World Tourism rankings
Multiple accounts messing with data over a period of months, looking like a sock farm of Bryandotr (talk · contribs). Current incarnation is 124.107.252.162 (talk · contribs). Blocks and page protection requested. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:12, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- IP has been blocked for 3 days, Bryandotr appears to have been abandoned after the last block. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Edit warring, personal attacks and severe battleground behavior by user
| Blocked 24 hours for TBAN violation. (non-admin closure) Softlavender (talk) 21:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The User:Mehtar10 has only been editing for sometime but has racked up multiple warnings on their Talk page, engaged in edit wars with different users and even used WP:PERSONALATTACKS against me. They either need to take time off Wikipedia or remove themselves from the WP:ARBIPA space. But looks like the user wouldn't care either way because they show a serious WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT mentality and clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. I am surprised no action or block was initiated against this user. Gotitbro (talk) 11:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)@Gotitbro: Per the policies written up at the top of this page and in the notice when creating this section, you must notify the user in question on their talk page. I have done so for you this time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:46, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Now topic banned from all pages relating to India or Pakistan, which includes talk pages, noticeboards, etc - all pages. Doug Wellertalk 09:42, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Excessive plot descriptions from Pennsylvania IP6s
I've been trying to talk to a Pennsylvania user but this person does not communicate at all. They keep adding too much film plot detail in violation of the guideline WP:FILMPLOT, making the plot section far too large. They have been repeatedly warned about adding too much detail to Bohemian Rhapsody (film), for instance, but they keep coming back. There's apparently zero interest in making an edit summary or a talk page entry. The current ranges are Special:Contributions/2601:547:1:84B0:0:0:0:0/64 and Special:Contributions/2601:543:4404:94A0:0:0:0:0/64, active for 14 and 13 months, respectively. Before that, the range was Special:Contributions/2601:543:4400:87:0:0:0:0/64, active from Jan 2018 to Sep 2019, also without an edit summary or talk page entry. And before that, I think there were some IP4s involved, starting in 2015: 24.154.239.241, 24.154.232.211, 24.154.232.234 and 71.185.171.23. Many thousands of edits in all. Can we get two rangeblocks? Binksternet (talk) 04:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Ongoing vandalism and DE from 208.175.138.101
| Blocked for one month. The length was chosen at my discretion as it appears that the same IP user has inhabited that IP address for the past month. Please re-report or ping me should it resume post-block. --TheSandDoctor Talk 04:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
208.175.138.101 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
Vandalism:
Disruptive editing:
Continuation of same after warnings on User talk:208.175.138.101
- Final Template:Uw-vandalism4im warning on Talk[159] and then continuation of the above behaviors[160], [161] UW Dawgs (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Unambiguous legal threat
See edit summary. Am on my phone and will shortly be unavailable for a few hours. DuncanHill (talk) 09:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Persistent vandalism from one IP range at Delta Zeta
| Blocks and page protection have been applied. GeneralNotability (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Requesting both page protection and, if practical, a rang block. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 13:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
David Haye
| BLOCKED | |
| Rangeblocked. (non-admin closure) Mr. Heart (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I know this isn't the best place, but could someone semi-protect David Haye and block some IP addresses? It's getting boring over there.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:59, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- 2a00:23c5:30a2:8a01::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) rangeblocked for a week, that covers all the recent vandalism to that article. If they or someone else come back from another address, it can be semi protected! ~ mazca talk 12:09, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Re-instate range block 2605:A601:AD87:300
Range block granted multiple times. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1042#IP range block needed for 2605:A601:AD87:300
User talk:2605:A601:AD87:300:4510:C510:1E10:45C7
User talk:2605:A601:AD87:300:35C5:69C7:3C13:BC20
Vandalism resumes soon after block expires. User has been warned numerous times. May seem minor but it is disruptive. Editors are spending a lot of time trying to clean up the damage. Long-term or permanent block would be appreciated.—JlACEer (talk) 14:52, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @JlACEer: A look at Special:Contributions/2605:A601:AD87:300::/64 shows no useful edits. This range has been blocked twice in the recent past and the user immediately returns to disruptive behavior when the block expires. Last block was for 1 month. I have reblocked this range for 1 year. ‑Scottywong [communicate] 05:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Strange editing pattern from 172.74.95.x addresses
Apologies if this is the wrong board, I'm not sure what is the most appropriate forum.
Several IP addresses in the same range are making repeated, high-volume (see their contribs), mostly-useless (see below) edits. Most of the edits aren't tagged, a small proportion are "visual editor". They appear to be interested in ethnic/racial groups and in video games.
Users noticed so far: 174.47.95.98 (talk · contribs), 174.47.95.107 (talk · contribs), 174.47.95.103 (talk · contribs), 174.47.95.99 (talk · contribs), 174.47.95.102 (talk · contribs)
Examples: Mixed-race Brazilian (from 10 consecutive edits, one VE); Multiracial people 11 edits from 2 IPs, includes 2VEdits; Adriana Lima (re-ordering of ethnic groups in heritage), Afro-Asians 2, Afro-Asians 1.
Edit types: inconsistent toggling of upper-lower case on qualifiers like native/Native, white/White; swapping order of asian and african; upper/lower-casing of page names in piped links; changing links-to-redirects into piped links; moving label suffixes in/out of piped links, [[page label]]s; uppercasing template names; adding (useful) or removing (not) spaces between template parameters; changing spaces before/after equals signs in headings; swapping order of section hatnotes and images; removing Oxford commas, changing color ↔ colour; not understanding how parenthetical commas work; some grammatical errors, some grammatical improvements. The source-code changes don't appear to be VE artifacts.
I thought they might have been using volume changes to hide some racial POV, but haven't found anything egregious.
Is this worth more eyes, or just ignore it? —Pelagic ( messages ) – (18:16 Sun 25, AEST) 08:16, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- Non-admin comments Taking a look at Special:Contributions/174.47.95.0/24 finds some very interesting behavior. These minor edits have been going on for at least a month now. When the edit spree begins, each of them are only a few minutes apart from each other. Almost all of the time you see the IP address change in-between these editing sprees. Few times it occurs during the spree. The behavior is also not 24/7, suggesting against the possibility of being some type of bot. In all, the edits appear in good faith and there doesn't seem to be any ulterior motive. Only egregious edit I've found so far was from Special:Contributions/174.47.95.80, but they appear to be blocked for editing behavior not consistent with the editing in question. Transcendental (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Hounding by user Binksternet
User Binksternet seems to be engaging in actions that violate wikipedia's policies regarding harassment, in particular Hounding. He has followed me across multiple articles, sometimes undoing almost all of my edits. He has followed me onto the articles for integralism, Christian views on suicide, and Consistent Life Ethic. Following me around like this is very disturbing and discouraging.
When he has gotten to these articles he has engaged in policies that constitute edit warring and has been asked to stop doing such activities. He also has even gone to accusing me of creating multiple accounts to attack him, which is simply not true. He also usually deletes constructive criticism on his actions: such as here, and here.
When he does not get his way he engages in actions that could constitute wikilawyering and just throwing the book at editors in general that would not constitute good faith editing. LongIslandThomist914 (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I certainly have followed the edits of LongIslandThomist914, for the purpose of removing violations of WP:No original research. My explanation to him is on his talk page here. He needs to stop relying on primary sources to expand articles, which he has been doing for the past year. He has never indicated any wish to stop these violations of policy. Rather, he was blocked yesterday for edit warring to keep his preferred version.
- LongIslandThomist914 misrepresents me in his above post. I hatted the comments[162] of FBPlunger who is blocked for violations of WP:MULTIPLE, but LongIslandThomist914 accuses me of accusing him of the same violation. A simple mistake on his part. The removals he complains about were me removing FBPlunger's contributions per WP:EVADE, which is allowed.
- The only thing I want to see from LongIslandThomist914 is him summarizing third party sources rather than pasting primary sources such as the Catechism into articles. Binksternet (talk) 16:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Binksternet: Dif's of problematic/policy violating edits would be helpful. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have some diffs at his talk page, which is where I thought the matter should be discussed. The first place I saw a problem was this talk page complaint by Chiswick Chap who was pointing out the problem with LongIslandThomist914's lengthy quotes. Diannaa agreed there were too many quotes. This diff shows the first such "lengthy" addition by LongIslandThomist914, followed by more. The diff shows LongIslandThomist914 interpreting and indeed extrapolating from a primary source quote: a letter from Tolkien to his son. After I proposed removing these quotes (and their violations of WP:NOR), I was encouraged to do so by Chiswick Chap and PaleCloudedWhite, as you can see at Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien#Heading in the wrong direction.
- More problematic diffs from LongIslandThomist914 include this interpretation and expansion using primary source text from the Catholic Catechism, this expansion using only the Catechism, and this example of edit warring with El C to restore primary source interpretation of the Catechism. LongIslandThomist914 has never expressed regret for relying too much on primary sources; instead, he proposed a whole article containing only Tolkien quotes, which would allow him to continue in his preferred style. Binksternet (talk) 17:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
What I find deeply disturbing is that you tracked me for months before deciding to offer any corrections. You followed me across this site and then only decided to act now by tearing apart all my edits. You couldn't have spoken up sooner if this concerned you so much? The only people who have issues with my edits are you and one other person on the Tolkien article, while it seems a great many people have issues with the way you conduct yourself on this website.
I do not see the issues with my citations of the Catechism: I did not add any of my own interpretation but simply put up what it says, and allow people to draw their own conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LongIslandThomist914 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, I did not track you "for months". I saw your overreliance on direct quotes at the Tolkien biography in August, including your violations of WP:NOR, but the only thing I did about it was to remove them from the article, supported by other participants there. That removal was on Sept 1,[163] after we some time spent talking about it in August. But you showed up on my radar again a week ago with this addition to an article on my watchlist, which made me remember your previous problematic style. That's when I realized there was a bigger mess. That's when I started working to stop your problematic edits across multiple articles. So it's one week that I have been rolling back the dozen or so problematic edits you made, leaving alone all the good ones. I haven't touched your many additions to the List of converts to Catholicism or your big expansion at 2018 New York State Senate election because those are fine. Binksternet (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- LongIslandThomist914, Wikipedia makes it easy to see a user's contributions. In the "skin" I use it's a button on the lefthand side of the userpage and user talkpage. There's a reason we can follow a user's edits; it's a very convenient feature for admins and experienced editors. If we should see somebody making a dubious edit, we pretty much automatically take a look at their other edits — I know I do. That is not hounding. And it's not hounding for Binksternet to follow your edits, once he has noticed your tendency to engage in original research based on primary sources. He explains the problem clearly and in detail here on your page. Binksternet is highly experienced, he knows Wikipedia policy well, and you would do far better to listen to his advice, rather than complain about him on this noticeboard. Please stop violating the No original research policy, or you are likely to be sanctioned. Bishonen tålk 18:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC).
- LongIslandThomist914, please accept the comments made here about original research. Drmies (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
User:ତୁମ୍ଭର ପିତା ଓ ରାଜା
As per Special:Contributions/ତୁମ୍ଭର_ପିତା_ଓ_ରାଜା it makes us suspicious to be a WP:SPA. The editor only edits on Dilip Ghosh (politician) and leading to content dispute with fellow editors. Please have a look. 42.110.204.193 (talk) 05:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This section was opened at the same time, by the same editor, as Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Dilip Ghosh (politician). See also prior discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1049#User:Amkgp is falsely accusing me of vandalism threatens block. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Howdoesitgo1's edits on Jim Rash
Numerous editors have repeatedly tried to (re)insert the actor Jim Rash's Instagram post in the article, which consensus agreed at Talk:Jim Rash not to use. One of those editors, the user Howdoesitgo1, has repeatedly reverted my removals of Rash's Instagram post recently:
- 20:53, 21 October 2020 (UTC): reverted my removal, which I made based on
consensusat Talk:Jim Rash - 02:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC): reverted another editor's removal
- 03:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC): reverted my re-removal after the conclusion at WP:DRN#Jim Rash (diff) was made
- 06:30, 27 October 2020 (UTC): reverted my re-re-removal without leaving an edit summary
I told the user to revert his undoings to my removal(s) and adhere to consensus, but the user's comment suggests otherwise. Then I warned him about edit warring, but then he told me to "stuff it", making remarks about me, which I found them untrue. I adhere to policies about living persons and am very cautious and wary about using self-published sources about oneself when there are no reliable secondary sources. Not only that comment, Howdoesitgo1 also made other comments to another editor at the thread that Howdoesitgo1 started.
I was this close to reporting him at WP:3RRN, but then his remarks show that issues are beyond edit warring. I can alternatively ask about the Instagram post at WP:RSN, but I bet they would have the same conclusions as other editors. George Ho (talk) 10:00, 27 October 2020 (UTC); edited, 19:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- George Ho, on the Jim Rash talk page, there were two editors for inclusion of that Instagram post (or the use of OTRS to verify it) and two editors against its use. I don't think that fits the meaning of consensus.
- I don't think https://hollywoodmask.com/ is a reliable source but I think an individual's statement about themselves on a verified Instagram account would be acceptable. LizRead! Talk! 17:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe there were consensus in past discussions about the Instagram post. Maybe not. I thought there was a consensus until you convinced me otherwise. If that's the case, I can either go to WP:RSN to discuss the Instagram post or start an RFC at the article talk page. BTW, if my complaints are invalid, must I withdraw the complaints about the user? --George Ho (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- In terms of this complaint, you don't need to withdraw it, you can just archive it with {{atop}} and {{abot}} or just let the bot move it to the archive page. Once a complaint has been posted on this page, it shouldn't be removed if anyone has responded to it. Liz Read! Talk! 20:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe there were consensus in past discussions about the Instagram post. Maybe not. I thought there was a consensus until you convinced me otherwise. If that's the case, I can either go to WP:RSN to discuss the Instagram post or start an RFC at the article talk page. BTW, if my complaints are invalid, must I withdraw the complaints about the user? --George Ho (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Legal threat?
| User:Scainder indeffed per WP:NLT. Chilling edit summary revdel'd --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Scainder did this revert[164] with the edit summary "That was a Twitter banter. A notice can be issued in the name of Wikipedia and the moderator reverting the edits by Mumbai Police. It goes against Twitter guidelines to bring the banter on Wikipedia which will ultimately result in arrest of the moderator reverting the edits." I shall probably rev/del the edit summary as purely disruptive, but it clearly is meant to have a chilling effect as much as does a threat to sue. Doug Weller talk 15:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Threatening arrest? That's definitely as chilling of an effect as it can get. User indef'd for the edit and thanks for the revdel Doug. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Being stalked by User:Koncorde
| Matter handled. User:Maxim blocked indefinitely for impersonation, threats, bombing things, and typing in a small font. Drmies (talk) 00:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
|
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've noticed it a while ago, whenever I create an article or edit it a lot... Koncorde appears there, reverting and edit warring, and I'm getting sick of it.
I think it's a result of a disagreement we had months ago... but it's not normal. No, it can't be a coincidence that he's on every edit I make.
Innovations in the piano, Concrete piano, List of Jewish Nobel laureates, Mifal HaPayis, Cadenza, Cadenza Piano, Sunderland A.F.C. supporters are just a few examples of articles he had never touched before I appeared there, and then suddenly automatically appearing and harassing me.
This is not a coincidence. Maxim.il89 (talk) 23:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Maxim, I have already blocked you from one article for edit-warring, and Dreamy Jazz has blocked you from another. I've never interacted with Koncorde ever, and I don't think DJ has either. I think you're pretty much a hair's breadth away from somebody thinking "is there any part of the project he's not disruptive on" and applying a side-wide block. You should take that warning with the seriousness it deserves. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 23:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- To confirm, I don't think I've ever interacted with Koncorde before. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 23:45, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- A quick suggestion, when bringing these kinds of accusations, you should always supply the diffs that substantiate your claims. Not to do so will immediately render your claims invalid, and possibly worse, bring your own actions under scrutiny. I would think twice before following this course of action. It's very fortunate that after you were found to breach WP:3RR that you were allowed to continue to edit because of Ritchie333's generous interpretation of the edit-warring guidelines. That you then went on to continue to fight with other editors is not a good sign. I would suggest that unless you change your approach here pretty quickly, you'll be banned. Just based on my experience (and not on the very lightweight approach meted out by Ritchie earlier). Your disruption appears to be getting worse. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Is there a reason you've posted to both here and WP:AN? Just one should suffice. -- a lad insane (channel two) 23:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment the forum-shopping thread at WP:AN has now been closed. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:49, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just for the record, the Original Poster was move-warring over Cadenza Piano, which has now been create-protected in article space. Koncorde wasn't doing the move-warring. Also, the Original Poster filed a frivolous Request for Arbitration which was closed very quickly. (I will note that ArbCom is now being much quicker than in the past to close frivolous requests. Some of you might not have seen the request if you didn't view the history.) In conclusion, this isn't about User:Koncorde. It appears to be about the Original Poster. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I have site-blocked Maxim for 31 hours. I now have a sore head from having banged it against a wall. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 00:11, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Is there someone you have to notify when you block an arbcrat? Natureium (talk) 00:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have to ask, what is one of them? Koncorde (talk) 00:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Maxim is a wikipedian who is both an arb and a crat. Both are high-status positions around here, and when you combine the two, you get... idk, there's probably a good nerd metaphor for that that I can't think of. Natureium (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Maxim is a WP:Bureaucrat and WP:ARBCOM member. Maxim.il89 is none of those. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:26, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Phew. I thought I was missing something for a moment. Koncorde (talk) 00:38, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- My fellow Wikipedians, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've finalized a motion that will outlaw questioning me forever. We begin banning in five minutes. Maxim(talk) 00:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Phew. I thought I was missing something for a moment. Koncorde (talk) 00:38, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have to ask, what is one of them? Koncorde (talk) 00:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Spam in edit summary
| Matter handled. ◅ Sebastian 14:03, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This edit appears to exist only to promote a porn website in the edit summary. Is this the best place/way to report it? Thanks, --NapoliRoma (talk) 18:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Grudge editing by Benc0lins on Caster Semenya
| Benc0lins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked indef by Guy, Pending Changes protection added to BLP - Alison ❤ 21:26, 29 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Caster Semenya (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
- Benc0lins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Benc0lins is edit warring against multiple other editors (including myself) to insert the unsupported and defamatory description "hermaphodite" into a BLP about a woman and also to speculate about her sexual organs. This user has ignored all warnings except to make minor changes to their edit which amount to wikilawering without any attempt to address the fundamental issue of why such content is unacceptable. This user is pretty much an SPA existing solely to pursue a defamatory grudge against Caster Semenya. The user has also engaged in dishonest/deceptive tactics such as marking substantial edits as minor and blatantly misrepresenting the contents of sources (e.g. on my own User Talk page). I believe that there is a clear pattern of malice and intentional dishonesty here. I believe that this user has been given more than enough rope and is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Also, it might be advisable to look into revdelling some or all of their edits and maybe even some of their edit summaries.
Note: I originally reported this to AIV and was advised to bring it here instead. Another user has separately reported it at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Caster_Semenya. Additional info, including diffs, can be found there. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
User:Benc0lins I am the editor that DanielRigal is referring to. I ask that you please read all of my edits and citations as well as my messages to Daniel. Also read his messages to me. I believe that you will find that I have refrained from being abusive at any point. And that all attempts to engage with Daniel on a comradery level have been rebuffed in no uncertain terms.
I'm also not being abusive or derogatory towards Caster Semenya or anyone else. I've shown Daniel that Hermaphrodite is a medical term that is used today, and that it isn't necessarily pejorative - via citation. However, in an effort to compromise, I've changed my edit to use the word "Intersex", and merely now refer to the term "46 XY hermaphroditism" as a category clarification, so as to be clear that it is meant as a medical condition and not as a label or slur. I've
Sadly, despite me repeatedly asking, Daniel has made no effort to discuss or compromise to this point. Please read his messages to me to see how he has conducted himself, as validation of what I am saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benc0lins (talk • contribs) 18:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
(copied from WP:BLPN)
- Note that I've reverted one edit yesterday for egregious WP:BLP vio. I've now sysop-protected for 24 hours, and have left a message on the talk page to get editors to the table to discuss. I've also rev-del'd some of the more egregious violations related to the subject's genitalia. That kind of unsourced, deeply personal commentary is never okay. Leaving any 3RR sanctions to another admin - Alison❤ 18:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Copyvio and CIR issues with زینب_امیری
| Editor is blocked indefinitely ◅ Sebastian 02:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
زینب_امیری (talk · contribs)
They have repeatedly uploaded blatant copyright violations after warnings, and created multiple duplicates of pages at names such as En.wikipedia.org/wiki/shervin bozorg and Shervinbozorg. There may be a language issue, but they are past the point of good-faith and at a CIR issue. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:32, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- The editor is currently blocked indefinitely due to the massive number of copyright violations. -- Whpq (talk) 01:36, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Breaching various policies
Hello - User:Heiko Gerber has breached multiple policies:
- Adding unreferenced content, see [165]
- Civility, see [166]
- 3RR, see [167]
- Engaging in an edit war, see [168] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note that discographys dont need sources, when he have an aritcle available for the respective album, see literally any article by a musician, e.g. Michael Jackson -- Heiko Gerber (talk) 19:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Please note that in respect of their unconstructive behaviour User:Heiko Gerber has been censoring debate by removing polite comments to him / her by various users, see [169], [170], [171]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Users are allowed to remove discussions that are put on their talk page, unless it's a declined unblock. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Hello RickinBaltimore - I recognise that, however I am noting the actions not as breach of policy but as record of possible attempts to hide that others have tried to engage constructively. Update: User:Heiko Gerber has removed a message from an admin, see [172] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 19:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Users are allowed to remove discussions that are put on their talk page, unless it's a declined unblock. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Please note that in respect of their unconstructive behaviour User:Heiko Gerber has been censoring debate by removing polite comments to him / her by various users, see [169], [170], [171]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Came here on the way to deciding if I should block Heiko Gerber for unsourced edits. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
": Note that discographys dont need sources, when he have an aritcle available for the respective album, see literally any article by a musician, e.g. Michael Jackson -- Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)"
- Please review [173]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 20:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I will add a source now so we can get this over with and this dude is happy Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- My understanding of sourcing is that the albums themselves and their liner notes are the implicit sources in a discography, just like the films and their credits are implicit sources for filmographies. Of course, that bit doesn't take into account the vicious edit war going on between these two, for which there is no exemption from WP:3RR. Elizium23 (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- What, other than reverting, am i supposed to do if this guy keeps on blanking the section? (for the record, i have added a source now which is completely redundant) Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is not about me. This is not about you. It is about following Wikipedia policies. Also, your recent edit to the article included both referenced and unreferenced content; the latter has been removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your helpful editing. :) Please blank the discography on Michael Jackson next, cause that doesnt have sources either Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Such crude sarcasm and flippancy does not merit a response. However, in the spirt of being constructive for Wikipedia: in addition to the various policies which you have previoulsy been suggested to review it is also suggested that you consider the reasons you are editing. This because it seems you are more focused on 'winning arguments' rather than improving articles. This, along with the petulant behaviour you continue to exhibit, is indicative of immaturity. If you are a child then hopefully this tendency will lessen with age, however if you are an adult then therapy is likely to be beneficial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 20:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your helpful editing. :) Please blank the discography on Michael Jackson next, cause that doesnt have sources either Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is not about me. This is not about you. It is about following Wikipedia policies. Also, your recent edit to the article included both referenced and unreferenced content; the latter has been removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- What, other than reverting, am i supposed to do if this guy keeps on blanking the section? (for the record, i have added a source now which is completely redundant) Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- My understanding of sourcing is that the albums themselves and their liner notes are the implicit sources in a discography, just like the films and their credits are implicit sources for filmographies. Of course, that bit doesn't take into account the vicious edit war going on between these two, for which there is no exemption from WP:3RR. Elizium23 (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I will add a source now so we can get this over with and this dude is happy Heiko Gerber (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- So each of you made 14 (fourteen) reverts at Richard Kruspe today. Why do you think both you should not be blocked per WP:3RR?--Ymblanter (talk) 21:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because i've reverted the vandalism of the IP? Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Lets just move on, not every report here has to end in a block Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Heiko Gerber - Reverting content that is inconsistent with policies is not vandalism: however this attacking of others with false allegations is consistent with your abusive and unconstructive behaviour.
- Hello Ymblanter - a block of both is warranted. A block of a single user would be unbalanced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- You literally just told me to get therapy. Now please stop wasting my time will you? Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I did not tell you. That you struggle to understand English, and your use of 'literally', is further support of your immaturity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.70.168 (talk) 21:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Done, for 31h--Ymblanter (talk) 21:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- You literally just told me to get therapy. Now please stop wasting my time will you? Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Lets just move on, not every report here has to end in a block Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because i've reverted the vandalism of the IP? Heiko Gerber (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note that I've checkuser blocked Heiko Gerber as a
Confirmed sock of Urgal. @El C:, I'm not sure how this effects your AE block of Urgal? Will also need a Steward to lock globally to match the master's block.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also
Confirmed, Kemba Chucker.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC) - Ponyo, I blocked the user for one year because that is the lengthiest duration AE allows for. An indef, providing that it is longer than that one year, seems perfectly intuitive for me. Once that one year block expires, they will remain technically blocked by virtue of being indef globally locked (such is my understanding, at least). El_C 23:47, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Noted, and both confirmed accounts are now globally locked as well. I think we're done here.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 15:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also
Repeated unsourced edit and unresponsive
| user ShonRoY (who renamed themselves MindSlayer13) has been blocked indefinitely. ◅ Sebastian 02:47, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
ShonRoY (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Note: User name changed after ANI opened
- New userlinks: MindSlayer13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The user has been abusing their editing privileges persistently. They have been persistently adding unsourced contents in football related pages like here, here, here. Even after they were warned, they continued their unsourced content addition. Even after a final warning I've asked explanation twice here, for the reason of unsourced content addition but there was no response from their side. Above that the user has been blocked thrice most importantly for personal attacks and disruptive edits. Verifiability is an important content policy and failing this are considered disruptive, so it can be assumed even after the blocks the user did not learn anything or did not even care to read the guidelines. I will be thankful if an admin can take a look into this. Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Templates are not the best way to begin communication 1, JMHO. With that said you have 10 times more edits than ShonRoY and I can see your frustration because the editor is not communicating about the disruptive edits. Seems we need to get their attention, and previous blocks may not have got their attention. Hopefully they will come here and explain their edits. Lightburst (talk) 14:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Lightburst, I think our expectation is too high for such users. They actually don't want to response anything. This is what they did now, changed their user name and pursue the same unsourced edit. Which shows they are pretending to be diffferent user and continue their editing behaviour. And this is not the first time, they did same thing before when they were warned they changed user name and did those unsourced edits. Drat8sub (talk) 15:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- I see. So we need to get their attention. An administrator will have to come along and evaluate. Lightburst (talk) 15:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comments I would like to add here that the user in question has been making not only disruptive edits but also vandalising the Mohun Bagan A.C. page ignoring all the discussions. There is no harm if he is an SC East Bengal fan but this user is just changing user names and going on with similar behaviour ignoring all the warnings as I noticed in his talk page. This requires perhaps strict solution. M Kariyappa (talk) 09:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Further comments: I have asked the user again to explain their edits, but it seems they have ignored as rather than explaining they again claimed something without providing any source. It's now out of control and quite frustrating to deal with such editing behaviour, my request to any admin please take the necessary actions, it seems the user is highly incompetent. Drat8sub (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- QEDK, Yamla and GiantSnowman, I am pinging you, since this has not been addressed yet and you all dealt with this user before. Can anyone of you please take a look into this user's edits and bring a solution to the matter. Drat8sub (talk) 18:59, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- I made a request at User talk:MindSlayer13#Sources. I will probably see any response, but please alert me if I miss it or if similar editing continues with no response. Johnuniq (talk) 00:24, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think a CIR-block is pretty plausible here. --qedk (t 愛 c) 16:47, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- The ANI opened on 18 and now it's 28, it's 10 days. In between I've asked the user to response, then Johnuniq, you asked on 25th, now after 3 days there is no response. Rather they did this edit, exactly the same edit here that they claimed without any source, (the player signing status which is not announced such by club). I don't think there is any need for waiting more to take action. They were given chances and now they wasted it instead. Drat8sub (talk) 22:21, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think a CIR-block is pretty plausible here. --qedk (t 愛 c) 16:47, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Thrylaraole
Thrylaraole has been consistently engaging in disruptive and unresponsive editing across the website for months. As you can see at his talkpage, he has been warned time and time again to stop, with no effect whatsoever. An example would be his editing on Organization X, a page that is currently protected because a blocked user keeps IP hoping and reinserting a whitewashed, neonazi POV version of the article. Then Thrylaraole comes in and reinserts the banned user's version word for word three times 1, 2, 3. Today he blanked the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki article and copy pasted] its contents to Fall of Japan, this decision was not discussed in any shape or form. This user does not engage in talkpage discussions, does not leave edit summaries, just goes around controversial articles undoing other people's edits. For other examples of disruptive editing just check the warnings on his talkpage.--Catlemur (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Looks like WhiteStarG7 to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Repeated copyright violation at Gordon Rausser
Choielliotjwa has repeatly reverted my removal of inappropriate copyrighted information at this page. The content he has added is against the consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of awards and honors received by Gordon Rausser, which called for only the merge of only the most notable awards per WP:NOTRESUME (they are already listed in the prose part of the article), and is a copyright violation of [174]. Ping AFD nom DGG. Reywas92Talk 18:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Reywas92 is accusing this content of being inappropriate copyrighted information, but the website the user redirects to is the CV of Gordon Rausser. How is this copyright? The discussion for the most notable awards was already been discussed and settled; if you don't like one of the awards, please put it up for discussion rather than deleting the whole section.
Choielliotjwa (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- "How is this copyright?" Hmmmmmm.... How about the "© 2020 Gordon Rausser" at the bottom of the page? Genius. Yes, it was settled that you should not copy-and-paste the entire CV into the article! I don't like any of these because the most notable ones are already in the third and fourth paragraphs of the article. Reywas92Talk 19:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's not a complete copy/paste of the CV - it's at least rephrased with citations added - but it might still be copyright infringement. That said, Choielliotjwa's only edits to Wikipedia have been related to Rausser, so I suspect that there's a COI, in which case Rausser could give Wikipedia a license to use the information. Gbear605 (talk) 19:10, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's okay to give a chronological list of awards, but some of the descriptions contain copyright text, for example from here. The whole list needs to be checked carefully. The article is now listed at WP:CP.— Diannaa (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Persistent disruption at Cedars Park, Cheshunt
- Jake Gutteridge (talk · contribs)
- 82.9.202.29 (talk · contribs)
- 82.3.246.74 (talk · contribs)
- 82.9.162.19 (talk · contribs)
- 82.6.111.69 (talk · contribs)
Accounts appear related. Edit warring, persistent addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content, lists of non notable persons, and WP:COI, with Mr. Gutteridge adding his name. Over and over. Requesting user block and range block of the IPs and clean up of the article, as even my limited attempts are reverted. Thanks, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:58, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
176.27.143.183
| Matter handled. ◅ Sebastian 14:12, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
176.27.143.183 openly admits on User talk:Nathan2055, while trying to manipulate Nathan2205 into an ally, that he is the same user who was blocked yesterday. Block evasion, personal attacks and WP:POINTY troll edits dating back at least 18 months. Requesting block, thanks. Dory Funk (talk) 05:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- "I’m contacting you due to being both repeatedly targeted and falsely banned by a factual troll who’s been endlessly vandalizing, reverting and deleting literally anything positive to do with a figure named Vince Russo on any page. As you just saw on the “Retribution” article, there was literally nothing worthy of being deleted in that quote by Vince Russo from a cited source, which is why you logically added it back from the pathetic troll “Dory Funk”, who’s been repeatedly deleting all positive sourced quotes made by Russo for months now. I even just looked at the “WWF Brawl for All” article which had a series of positive Russo quotes that were added all the way back in April, and yet they were all just deleted by this “Dory Funk” loser without logical reason a few weeks ago, all despite the fact that these quotes were worthy of being there without ever being deleted by anyone else for 6 entire months. This ridiculous troll has an incredibly pathetic, biased agenda against anything Vince Russo related, as well as me personally. If the only issue with me being repeatedly and falsely banned by this trolls reporting was me needing a “confirmed” Wikipedia account then I would have created one months ago, but this spiteful m0r0n is so embarrassingly obsessed with trolling anything Vince Russo related that i’m sure he would use his nonsense “sock-puppet” excuse against me even with a fully confirmed account. The fact that i’ve done nothing but make factually helpful ANTI-TROLL edits the entire time and yet this idi0t continues to stalk, target, and get my factually helpful edits reverted and my I.P. address falsely banned without valid reason is all proof that his trolling needs to be put to a permanent end. So to quickly sum up, can you possibly help with this long-term issue of repeated trolling? Or could you direct me to the page of a Wikipedia moderator who isn’t a pathetic, biased, trolling man-child like “Dory Funk” and any of these other equally pathetic, abusive figures who keep reverting factually constructive/factually sourced edits and ridiculously banning actual normal people like myself? ([diff) Aspersions? Check. Personal attacks? Check. Sock puppetry? Check. Darkknight2149 07:56, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Done Blocked. Black Kite (talk) 10:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC) - (non-admin comment) A knitted foot covering - 94.2.82.73. "This piece of shit troll freakshow has even followed me here now, proving my point yet again. I'll go to another mod on a different I.P. address have this basement-dweller dealt with.". Narky Blert (talk) 12:22, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- And that's been blocked as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:00, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- (non-admin comment) A knitted foot covering - 94.2.82.73. "This piece of shit troll freakshow has even followed me here now, proving my point yet again. I'll go to another mod on a different I.P. address have this basement-dweller dealt with.". Narky Blert (talk) 12:22, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Australian IP editor and "decisive" Turkish victories
| Page protected, nothing else to do here. (non-admin closure) — MRD2014 (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 203.220.140.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 14.202.44.208 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 203.221.7.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
- Battle of Dumlupınar (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
- Turkish War of Independence (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
Despite the dissimilar IP addresses they all locate to the Melbourne area of Australia, and based on edits are clearly the same editor. For many days this editor has been edit warring to add the term "decisive" to infoboxes relating to battles/conflicts. Template:Infobox military conflict specifically says not to do this for the "result" field, stating this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive" . . . Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat"
. This has been explained at Talk:Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922)#"Decisive", Talk:Battle of Dumlupınar#"decisive" in infobox, and on the first IPs talk page at 12:14, 21 October 2020. It did appear that the message on their talk page did the trick since they stopped attempting to edit war "decisive" into infoboxes, but they have been carrying on edit warring using the latter two IPs since 25 October. I assume semi-protection might be the best option, it seemed a bit complicated for a RFPP request. FDW777 (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
If we open new account in Gmail or Yahoo they asked email address. In wikipedia it is optional . change this procedure. if we forget passward we can recover through this mail address
| CLOSED | |
| This noticeboard is for posting about major problems with user behaviour, not proposing changes to Wikipedia software. I recommend you go to WP:TEAHOUSE for help with your idea. (non-admin closure) MrAureliusRTalk! 15:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Its my praposal . If open account in gmail or yahoo , they asked emai address or phone number. With out email/Phone number we cant open account in Gmail or yahoo.
But in Wikipedia we can open account with out mail address/Phone number .
My opinion is Change software to make it, impossible to open an account in Wikipedia without email address /Phone number .
Benefits of email :
1. If we forget pass ward , we can recover through our mail.
2. It secures .
3. Can restrict open "Multiple accounts by a single user"
(Idokkryu (talk) 15:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC))
How do we deal with undiscussed mass-mergers of articles?
| No admin action needed. To answer the question of the section: Politely write to the editor who did the merges to tell them you were surprised so they can consider writing a note in an appropriate Wikipedia:WikiProject beforehand. ◅ Sebastian 13:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Ordinarilly we use {{Merge OtherPage date=October 2020}} and {{Merge to OtherPage date=October 2020 }} to suggest that two articles be merged, and to open up a discussion. However, an editor, Reywas92, earlier today mass-merged some 60 pages in a little less than 4 hours, between 03:23, 28 October 2020 and 07:11, 28 October 2020 (can be seen here), the bulk of them were articles about Puerto Rico government/politics.
A single potentially controversial merge can be disruptive if not discussed first. However, in this case there are some 60 merges, many of them articles that had been stable for years. While merges can be a good thing if the edits follow WP:PG, the reality "in the field", "in the trenches", is that much of it can be downright disruptive politically-motivated POV, especually during these days of prime-time US and PR elections. For example, here the editor performed a merged admitting in his summary edit that "May largely duplicate bullet point list but I'm not going to go through that yet, just getting rid of duplicate article". I don't about everyone else in this ANI forum, but my MO is that I first clean up my own mess in our article before I proceed to the next. In addition these weren't "duplicate article"s.
Is there enough here to admonish/block/mass-revert the editor/his edits to reign undiscussed mass-mergers like these. I couldn't find any invitation to discuss any of those mergers. Mercy11 (talk) 23:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Mercy11: Merely mass merging is no crime. The real question is: were the merges good? If they were generally good, then I see no issue. If there are some bad ones, open a discussion and they can be undone. I see no evidence to indicate that they were all or mostly bad though. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment and Questions: A few opening observations:
- Disclaimer: I generally feel good merges are a very positive way to improve the encyclopedia.
- Editors are allowed to merge boldly if they believe the edits will not be controversial. IMO however, articles that have existed for a while (~2yrs) or articles likely to be expanded in the future generally deserve a discussion.
- "A single potentially controversial merge can be disruptive if not discussed first." Merges can be undone easily. Unless there is a broad and consistent pattern of bad merges it is not DE.
- Merges should be done thoughtfully, with the resulting article being improved rather than just added to and cluttered up. Merges should not be done haphazardly or in a way that creates work for others. 60 merges in 4 hours is a lot to think about, perform the merge to the chosen page, and ce the result, even if you're merging stubs. Reywas92, can you describe the process you use to decide on and then perform a merge?
- Mercy11, you provided no article names for the merges that you feel are problematic. Can you please provide them. You also state "downright disruptive politically-motivated POV", can you provide diff supporting "politically-motivated POV" in the merges in question.
- I have not looked into the details because I would like to hear from the principles before looking at specifics. // Timothy :: talk 00:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek:One problem is that they are all copyvio's as best practices regarding edit summary wording weren't followed (Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia).
- Second, I picked one of the merged product pages at random, Secretary of State of Puerto Rico. This is the before of the FROM-Page and this is the before of the TO-Page of two articles that were merged. Neither of the two had any errors in the Refereces section. Now, this is the after of their merge. The AFTER product has errors in the Reference section. The failure here is clear WP:PG wasn't adhered to, specifically here WP:V. Mercy11 (talk) 00:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- How does a simple merge violate Verifiability? Also, the copyvio thing can be fixed with a dummy edit providing attribution. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:34, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- @TimothyBlue: One of the beautiful things about editing at WP is that, as volunteers, we each choose the type of work we want to do. Mine is perhaps best described as creating quality articles. I am sure someone will come along whose love is to go thru all those merges and seek-and-destroy all the bad stuff. This could also be termed doing the janitorial work after what I perceive as risky merging at best and just downright sloopy merging at worse. Mercy11 (talk) 00:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Reply to Mercy11: Forgive this humble janitor asking for diffs and information; I was unaware of your special calling. Please accept my humble thank you for your concise response which tells everyone everything they need to know about the merits of your report. // Timothy :: talk 04:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- If you have a concern about a specific merge I performed, please say which one directly to me or on its talk page, rather then broadly complaining here. These pages have low readership and no recent edits, so it was reasonable to assume there would be no response to a {merge} tag, as I have encountered before, with WP:BOLD perfectly acceptable per the bolded first line of WP:MERGEINIT. In every one of these cases, the merged-from page was duplicative of, very similar to, or closely related to the page merged to, with no need for a separate page, and I see no controversy about the content of any of them. It should be uncontroversial that the list of secretaries of state should be in the same article describing the role of secretary of state. If your concern is that I accidentally missed the {notelist} template on a single one of these pages, as I have now fixed, you can alert me directly rather than whining to administrators. Double-checking my edits, I merged 30 Puerto Rico articles into others, not "60 merges", and I am confident that every one of them should have their content on the merged-to page: all were redundant, very similar in topic, or lacked notability for the need for a separate article. The most blatantly obvious were Article Four of the Constitution of Puerto Rico, Bill of Rights of Puerto Rico, and Article Three of the Constitution of Puerto Rico into Constitution of Puerto Rico – should I have waited a week to do that? With respect to merging the duplicative List of cays and islets of Puerto Rico to List of islands of Puerto Rico, do you really think these should have remained separate pages? I have now consolidated the table and bulleted list. Was worth whining to administrators about the very next day, before saying something on the page itself or directly to me? I have never been to Puerto Rico nor have a formed opinion of its local politics – just that there shouldn't be duplicative stubs – and your assuming bad faith and POV is rude and unfounded. Your implicatation that these are full of "bad stuff" and "risky" from one missing note list template, and that I am incapable of creating quality articles, is likewise rude and unfounded. Reywas92Talk 01:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: There is no merit to this report. Reywas92 performed quality merges with a few minor easily corrected oversights. // Timothy :: talk 05:16, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive edits from self-confessed sock-puppet Heatxiddy
| The sock is blocked. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 18:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can an admin please block the account Heatxiddy, he has self-confessed to being a sock-puppet of Zalgo [175]. He is making disruptive edits claiming users are abusing policy. This is a case of WP:NOTHERE. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
: Can you point to ONE edit (outside of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Zalgo of course) that you think is "disruptive"? And don't worry -- they will eventually block this account, so you will soon be able to revert my legitimate edits by abusing WP:BLOCKEVASION (hence, "policy abuse") so as to suit your agenda here. Heatxiddy (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2020 (UTC) comment made by sock Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 18:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- You have been disrupting articles related to animal source foods, vegetarianism, veganism, pescetarianism, carnivore diet etc for the last year on about six or seven different blocked accounts with an agenda to push. Its the same thing every-time. You were the same person pushing the pseudoscientific carnivore diet on Wikipedia and Reddit now you are trying to promote others on here. You ignore WP:MEDRS and seem to lack knowledge about these topics. For example most of your edits on plant-based diet were reverted [176]. After your account is blocked, I guess we will see you next month on a new one. You are not making legitimate edits. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Lansing Michigan rapper rangeblock
| (non-admin closure) Blocked for three months by Black Kite. Darkknight2149 23:26, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Somebody in Lansing has been vandalizing hip hop music articles for more than a year, using the range Special:Contributions/2601:405:4600:DFC0:0:0:0:0/64. Can we get a rangeblock?
Typical vandalism from this range includes wrong names,[177] changing song titles and credits,[178] adding unreferenced future stuff,[179] and more.[180][181][182] The vandalism probably goes back earlier with other IPs. Binksternet (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Done, for 3 months. Black Kite (talk) 20:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Emigré55
| BLOCKED | |
Emigré55 temporarily blocked for a week by Bishonen for persistent slow edit warring at the article and vexatious litigation here at ANI. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Emigré55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Portrait of a Noble Young Lady (Pourbus) (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
I closed an RfC on the use of a specific self-published source as a speculative identification of the subject of this painting: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 314 § Marc Couwenbergh. Emigré55 did not accept this close and edit-warred to include the text based on the self-published source, leading to the article being protected. Protection expired and Emigré55 has just done exactly the same again, reverted by The Banner, who was also involved in the original discussion. The article is now protected again (by Deepfriedokra). Talk page discussion is circular, with repetition of the same claims of reliability that were unsuccessfully advanced in the RSN discussion. It looks as if The Banner was correct in their original prediction that the RSN result would simply be rejected. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:52, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- You forgot to mention edit-warring over related, if not identical, content at Anna van Egmont (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views). FDW777 (talk) 15:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@JzG: in case you weren't aware, there's a potentially related dustup involving these two editors in a thread near the top of this page ('Request for Boomerang Site Ban'). It appears that Emigre55 inserted themselves into a separate dispute involving The Banner in an attempt to get the latter sanctioned, possibly because of their otherwise unrelated differences with the editor. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 16:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- That discussion is certainly related as Eissink did not like the fact that I kept asking for proof. Proof of Marc Couwenbergh being an art historian of note and proof of the blog posts being peer-reviewed reliable sources. Here, the talk page of Hoary, he was fishing for support for his stance that WP:RS/SPS was satisfied with claiming that Couwenbergh is a notable expert on his filed (no proof delivered). And here he started digging in my past to get info on a block I don't know how many years ago. This looks more like an attempt to get rid of someone instead of delivering requested proof. The Banner talk 16:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, the temptation to just block Emigré55 for disruption was great. Don't like blocking people, but see no other option if the previous WP:BRD has been fruitless. The purpose of FP is to get users to discuss, so. . . . --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:59, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
JzG, The RfC was about the reliability of Couwenbergh, as judged by consensus. And you are right, consensus on that point was against me. However, the RfC was not about RKD, and there was never any discussion about RKD as a source, and of course its reliability. RKD had not published anything about the hypothesis I mentioned in this article before the RfC.
Now RKD did, only a few days ago, here, writing, “it has been suggested that the sitter is Anna van Bueren."
The argument I am making now is hence dramatically different from the argument disputed in the RfC. I am just claiming to cite RKD and what they write. That is to write a fact, and evidence it by a most reliable source. No more, but no less.
And I believe I comply with all rules of Wikipedia in so doing.
I did not revert based on an alleged refusal of the result of the RfC. I just reverted on the basis of RKD new statement, as stated in the header, referring also to the talk page where I had previously explained the reasons why.
Nor did I "edit warred", as there was only one overall change on my part to restore the article and this useful information as a whole. The edit war started when The Banner promptly reverted my changes, based on his old and unchanged arguments, which do not apply anymore. I did not go further than my first changes, so, if there must be an edit war, it is coming from him, not me.
Moreover, please kindly note that I did not mean to be disruptive in doing that, but to add information, and properly sourced, to this article, as opposed to delete only, as The Banner did. My overall contribution to this article can be judged here, as well as his and others’ contributions, and usefully compared to The Banner's.
My overall contribution to the article about Anna van Buren, which is related to this one, can also be judged here.--Emigré55 (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, it's exactly the same argument: that the occasional mention of this self-published speculation thus justifies its inclusion as fact in the article. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:00, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- My addition was the referral to the Reliable sources noticeboard. That you do not like the outcome is not something can blame on anyone. And that the RKD uses that same sources shot down at RSN does make that source sudden useful. The Banner talk 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, well, you can see it this way, but this is definitely not how I saw the point and the situation, when I learned about RKD recent publication. All the more since it is legitimate to think that RKD operates here a peer validation of what you call a speculation, but what is in fact an hypothesis, which is quite current in art history as to sitters or painters of a particular painting.
- Anyhow, if you have read my personal page, you know that I do not wish to further contribute to Wikipedia, mainly due to The Banner harassment, which I suffered since this summer. (and of course which I can document if I am asked to). With this important hypothesis/info for the history,I just wanted to finish 2 articles I have spent a lot of time on. Now, I do not not have either the courage anymore, or the motivation, to bring to Wikipedia the other biographies of painters/old masters I have worked on all my life, and which are poorly or even not at all represented in Wikipedia....
- The Banner has properly killed my earlier enthusiasm (he will he happy to learn that, I am sure....)--Emigré55 (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight: you blame me for the fact that you were unable to provide proof of Marc Couwenbergh being an art historian of note and proof of the blog posts being peer-reviewed reliable sources? The Banner talk 03:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I really wish people who decide to stop contributing would just stop contributing. EEng 09:36, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- He still seems to think that I am fabricating rules, while he is ignoring a community decision. This is going nowhere. The Banner talk 09:58, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- And it goes on and on. This discussion is nor funny nor useful: Talk:Anna van Egmont#His publications pertinent to the article. I dislike it to ask for it, but a block or topic ban might be needed. The Banner talk 13:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- He still seems to think that I am fabricating rules, while he is ignoring a community decision. This is going nowhere. The Banner talk 09:58, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Request for Boomerang topic ban
If this is "going nowhere", as claimed by The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), here above, it is because :
- of The Banner constant and immediate opposition to ANY change I have brought to this page, and not let alone this one, but on other subjects too.(I can of course document this point if I am asked)
- the fact that he only deleted information, and NEVER contributed positively in this article, not a single byte, as shown here.
- the fact that he never accepts any compromise in the wording I proposed. On this precise issue, I proposed a different and compromised version today for the third time.
I, on the contrary, have a history on this article of long and positive contribution, which can be assessed here, having brought 17,845 bytes(76.7% of the added text to the initial article).
Taking into consideration such a constant opposition, sometimes even based on lies (which I can also document if asked), in my humble opinion, he is the one who should be topic banned.
--Emigré55 (talk) 15:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- In fact, you are the one that deserves a block. You keep ignoring the decision taken on the Reliable sources noticeboard. And you seem to think I am evil, because you fail to prove that Marc Couwenbergh is an art historian of note. And you fail to prove that the blog post of Couwenergh are relevant, peer reviewed sources. But no, time and time again you come with the same stories. Unfortunately, in all your walls of text there is still no proof. And you start more and more shouting about personal attacks from my hand. The Banner talk 16:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Emigré55, are you proposing a site ban or topic ban for The Banner? The section title is for a site ban, but you end your proposal with
he is the one who should be topic banned
. Can you clarify whether you want a topic ban or a site ban. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 16:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC) - Based upon what? The same lack of evidence that was (not) provided in the previous thread? Could an admin please just close this? Grandpallama (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Dreamy Jazz, My apologies, my mistake. I am just asking a topic ban, and just corrected the title. Contrary to The Banner, I am not looking into goading and escalating, and I leave it to the admins to decide if his overall behaviour deserves more. My aim is just to finish quietly this article in which I have invested a lot of time and efforts. I am totally discouraged by his continuous harassment, as I wrote it on my personal page, and have stopped writing other articles on other topics. Getting old and suffering from heart disease, I also cannot afford coping with so aggressive people, for the sake of my own health.--Emigré55 (talk) 18:02, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Dreamy Jazz, Should I give diffs for the points I have offered to document? --Emigré55 (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- It is important to support any accusations / points you make at ANI with diffs to show it. If you could add a few diffs which directly support the points you present that would be useful. Dreamy Jazztalk to me my contributions 18:19, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Dreamy Jazz, Thank you for your answer. I will work on these points in the coming hours, and come back at the latest tomorrow morning. --Emigré55 (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- It is important to support any accusations / points you make at ANI with diffs to show it. If you could add a few diffs which directly support the points you present that would be useful. Dreamy Jazztalk to me my contributions 18:19, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could explain this edit? Since the timestamps are forty minutes apart, it's not clear to me that it was the product of an edit conflict. Grandpallama (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I doubt you'll be hearing back, or hearing back anything creditable. We've now got two editors, Emigre and Eissink, caught in a sort of folie à deux. It's long past time for an admin to end our hopeless attempts to cast clues before the unclueable[1] by closing this thread, and #Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Inserting the word "notable" into a subject definition, with appropriate action. EEng 03:29, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Emigré55 have you seen this question? Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 14:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Dreamy Jazz, I had seen it, but not looked into it, as I did not take it as addressed to me. Having now clicked on the diff, it seems that copy pasting my answer directly under your previous question might have accidentally erase this comment. If it is the case, my apologies, as it was obviously not my intention to erase anyone's comment. --Emigré55 (talk) 15:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- ^ Made-up word.
Facts and diffs concerning The Banner:
1/ "The Banner constant and immediate opposition to ANY change” , “constant opposition, sometimes even based on lies":
- e.g. reverting even the name of Anna van Bueren, bluntly claiming that she acquired her name “by marriage” (a pure invention of him), without a diff, here,
and against all evidence , as I had to remind him here: "You wrongly reverted this. for a wrong reason. If you had read further, you would know that she was "suo jure" Countess of Buren. And if you had read her father's biography, you would know that he was Count of Buren."
- e.g. again, and the very next day, now claiming that she is not “better known as Anna van Buren” and that other wikis prove it, here.
a pure lie, since he could not ignore they tell the contrary, and that it is based on numerous sources, as I reminded it on his talk page, and here, adding 3 references to evidence.
I now regard these 2 malicious and futile reverts from The Banner as the beginning of his harassment against me, which lasted until now.
2/ The Banner uncivility and harassment:
I myself have been goaded/attacked numerous times byThe Banner(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), up to a point when I felt literally harassed.
- “Great, you clearly have no flipping clue. And due to your lack of understanding, you need edit wars and personal attacks. To be honest, you give me the uspicion that you and Marc Couwenbergh are identical.” The  ;Banner  ;talk 09 :45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
A clear triple “personal attack”, as WP:NPA clearly states that “ Serious accusations require serious evidence, usually in the form of diffs and links. », also violating WP:GOODFAITH. It’s here.
And he continued:
- again, on the very same day, posted on my personal talk page, "Nice try to hide .......the fact that you simple do not have a clue. The Banner talk 10:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)", here.
- and again, “you read badly...”, posted on my personal talk page, probably to goad me more, here, on 16/9.
I expressed to The Banner several times that I felt harassed by him, as here: "I read badly": A personal attack, to top up your continued harassment? --Emigré55 (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC)".
But he continued, and came again:
- for instance calling me “Dude”, here.
- and even adding, what shows a clear harassment, as much as his clear intention to provoke me : “And yes, this was on purpose.»
--Emigré55 (talk) 04:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have no interest in looking at all claims here, but the "dude" one above, I noticed this at the discussion involved. Where did it come from? The Banner started a reply to you with the perfectly innocuous word "yep", to which you reacted as if they had committed some heinous crime:
- ""Yep" ? could you refrain from using such trivial interjections, and / or onomatopoeia? I do indeed feel offended by such vulgar comments from you on my remarks. They don't belong to an honest and civil dialog. And I fear that, unfortunately, this is not the first time that you dare to write to me like this. Purposely?"[183]
- If you react so extremely poorly to such comments, then I think Wikipedia simply isn't the place for you. Civility doesn't mean writing like some 18th century members of the nobility addressing each other in convoluted sentences and using words they don't really understand (like, in this case, "onomatopeia"), and at the same time starting a duel for the most minor slight they perceive. If you can't stand someone saying "yep", then it simply is not possible to have you around in a collaborative, multicultural, and informal project. Fram (talk) 08:37, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have no interest in looking at all claims here, but the "dude" one above, I noticed this at the discussion involved. Where did it come from? The Banner started a reply to you with the perfectly innocuous word "yep", to which you reacted as if they had committed some heinous crime:
- I will keep my reply short, just look here. Attack after attack and his tone and style did not change a bit since August.
- But I am in fact concerned about the fact that there might be something more fishy behind this: User talk:Emigré55#Your submission at Articles for creation: Portrait of a Noble Young Lady (Pourbus) has been accepted and User talk:Emigré55#File:Portrait Young Noble Lady by Pourbus.IR Details 05 gauche.tif where two different editors vent their amazement about infra-red pictures presented as own work. Not impossible, but this looks more like pictures made in a professional environment.
- And still no proof that Marc Couwenbergh is an art historian of note and that his personal blog posts are reliable peer-reviewed sources. The Banner talk 09:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- 3 short comments on the 3 sentences here above by The Banner:
- 1/ Claiming I am attacking whereas I am defending myself against his malicious and goading reverts? Typical of the personal attack style/tactic of The Banner. Has tone and style of The Banner changed since last August?
- 2/ The answer to the first question is unfortunately no, as The Banner himself is revealing with this second sentence, moreover totally out of the points made in this paragraph.
- In so doing, he is sticking to his tactic, another “ad hominem”, as explained here, why he uses this tactic: “a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion to some irrelevant but often highly charged issue".
- Also openly against WP:GOOD FAITH.
- Hence pure stalking, pursuing and proving with this new stalking step his harassment.
- 3/ A further “ad hominem”, constant tactic of him to avoid answering the points raised. Moreover, this “ad hominem” reveals that The Banner fabricates Wikipedia rules he pretends to see applied in demanding again and again:
- that Couwenbergh should be "of note". Whereas WP:RS/SPS DOES NOT require that "of note" characterization. Only that he is "an established expert", which is definitely not the same. "of note" is hence a pure fabrication of his.
- that his blog should be "peer reviewed". Whereas WP:RS/SPS DOES NOT require this. Only that "work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". No "peer review" required, a condition he purely has fabricated, in order to make up his case.
- To me, this reveals that he is purely gaming the system, fabricating tools for his endless harassment against me.
- --Emigré55 (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- An edit like this is 100% harassing. And you did that twice.
- And here you are clearly making up your own rules by ignoring the community decision at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_314#Marc_Couwenbergh. It would be nice when you stop with your attacks and harassing. Just come up with the proof requested. The Banner talk 15:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Asking a third party, the admin who blocked you indef about the circumstances (in order to better understand) is harassing YOU??? My question seemed then to me perfectly legitimate, whereas I had just discovered that you precisely have a long history for harassment. You have been blocked 9 times (and 1 times indef.!) among other grounds for: "Personal attacks or harassment", "Disruptive editing: continued battleground mentality; frivolous ANI thread", "Disruptive editing: battleground mentality, edit-warring, absolute refusal to engage in discussion",..., and for actions which now repeat. For your bloks, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=block&user=&page=The+Banner&wpdate=&tagfilter=&wpfilters%5B%5D=newusers
- Asking an admin for advice, as I did with Hoary, is ignoring a community decision???
- We don't seem to speak the same language, I am afraid. One thing is sure, you prove with these 2 sentences again that you continue to attack me "ad hominem".
- En passant, can you remember the advice Hoary gave to you, here? ""The Banner, if you're offended, perhaps you'd benefit from taking a break from this particular article. Wikipedia has so very many more on offer. -- Hoary (talk) 12:31, 6 October 2020 (UTC)"
- --Emigré55 (talk) 15:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Request a block for Emigré due to constant harassing, following around and personal attacks. I have enough of his disruptive and battleground behaviour. The Banner talk 15:57, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Request a topic ban for The Banner, limited to the 2 articles on Anna van Egmont and Portrait of a Noble Young Lady (Pourbus) and their talk pages, with additional order to refrain to interact directly or indirectly with Emigré55'’'.
So that The Banner WILL HAVE to now conform to Hoary’s recommendation.
I leave it to the admins to decide which sanction is appropriate for the insidious harassment I have suffered for 2 months since August 2020, which was evidenced again today by The Banner himself with his stalking new attack (here) on one hand, and for insidiously gaming the system on the other hand. --Emigré55 (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It would be a better plan to give you a topic ban for those articles. To be lifted when you provide evidence that Marc Couwenbergh is an art historian of note and that his personal blog posts are peer-reviewed reliable sources (what can be a bit pf a problem seeing Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_314#Marc_Couwenbergh). It looks like asking for evidence is a personal attack in the eyes of Emigré55. The Banner talk 20:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It is amazing how you keep ignoring what I wrote here above and also before, i.e. that you impose conditions that are NOT stated in WP:RS/SPS. Hence, keeping fabricating WP rules. WP:RS/SPS DOES NOT require that "of note" characterization, nor that his blog should be "peer reviewed". Only that "work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications".
- And I have already provided all evidences needed by WP:RS/SPS, here, but you have chosen to ignore them. So, claiming now that "asking for evidence is a personal attack in the eyes of Emigré55" is both contrary to the mere truth, and a new breach by you of WP:GOODFAITH.
- Furthermore, I would say that the mention by RKD of both Couwenbergh hypothesis AND his personal blog (at the end of their entry on this painting) is the obvious best "peer review" of this blog you demand, but also , and at the same time, want to ignore, or reject.
- Therefore, you should ask yourself: why should a mere Wikipedia contributor reject a source which has been accepted by RKD, at least for being worth mentioning in their research pages?? It is mind boggling to me that you, or any wikipedia contributor, would dare to put yourself/himself as a better judge that RKD, for what is an acceptable source or not for an art history hypothesis! It would also be simply ridiculous.
- --Emigré55 (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because it sounds that you have informed the RKD about those blog post, seeing this edit of your hand: Now, the most important: The RKD is aware of the false/incomplete entry, and as far as I know will correct it, and of course add the catalogue references, which you will notice also are missing in their description. Everybody is welcome to check this information, as I did, by calling RKD or writing them. So, my suggestion is to wait until the correction is made in their own database. RKD is slow moving, but it will be done. I am 100% sure of it.--Emigré55 (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC) . The most likely way that they could have known this while at the same time you know that, is when you informed them. The Banner talk 21:15, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- So what?
- Are people not grown up enough, professional enough, at RKD, not to make their own opinion?
- You are just evidencing that it is the case that they found, at least, worth mentioning Couwenbergh, his blog, and his hypothesis. Merely the "peer review" you demanded. and that you seem now to reject??
- Now, as I wrote, everybody can call them and check. Why don't you call them and ask that they take out these mentions?--Emigré55 (talk) 21:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because it sounds that you have informed the RKD about those blog post, seeing this edit of your hand: Now, the most important: The RKD is aware of the false/incomplete entry, and as far as I know will correct it, and of course add the catalogue references, which you will notice also are missing in their description. Everybody is welcome to check this information, as I did, by calling RKD or writing them. So, my suggestion is to wait until the correction is made in their own database. RKD is slow moving, but it will be done. I am 100% sure of it.--Emigré55 (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC) . The most likely way that they could have known this while at the same time you know that, is when you informed them. The Banner talk 21:15, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It would be a better plan to give you a topic ban for those articles. To be lifted when you provide evidence that Marc Couwenbergh is an art historian of note and that his personal blog posts are peer-reviewed reliable sources (what can be a bit pf a problem seeing Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_314#Marc_Couwenbergh). It looks like asking for evidence is a personal attack in the eyes of Emigré55. The Banner talk 20:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Call to site-block Emigré55 I am sorry to be making this post because it comes after I tried personally counselling Emigre at their talk page, with limited success. I there and others here have explained to Emigre that the "attacks" he perceives are not attacks under any reasonable standard yet they have doubled and tripled and quadrupled down on insisting that every statement the Banner makes is somehow offensive. Emigre continues to take the most innocuous possible utterances as evidence of a grand plan by The Banner to drive them from Wikipedia. Unfortunately, this becomes self-fulfilling prophecy: By continuing to propose sanctions against The Banner, Emigre has instead provided proof that sanctions are necessary against themself. This has gone on long enough and, as Bishonen often puts it, editor time is a precious resource. Emigré55 should be short-term blocked to allow them time and space to stop focusing on ephemeral conspiracies and to prevent further disruption. I still believe they can make great contributions if they let this one-sided animosity go and a block is the best tool to help achieve that. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Let me correct you: I am not proposing sanctions against The Banner, what he has been and still is doing against me.
- I am only proposing/asking that he be topic ban. A mere admin measure.
- I leave it to the admins decide if and which sanctions are needed for the undeniable harassment I am experiencing since August.
- May I also remind you that you wrote on my talk page : "I'm not going to pretend to tell you you shouldn't feel harassed. Your feelings are yours and nobody can tell you what they should be. "
- So, please do not now write the contrary, and/or that "Emigre continues to take the most innocuous possible utterances as evidence of a grand plan by The Banner to drive them from Wikipedia". This, I have never written, so please do not attribute to me such ideas/plans, also contrary to WP:GOODFAITH....TY. --Emigré55 (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- A topic ban is a sanction, I don't know how you think it is not. You are listing "Yep" and "Dude" as evidence of "attacks" and you in this very post accuse The Banner of a pattern of continuing attacks and on your user page you say "Hence I am strongly considering to no longer contribute." I think that's the ""innocuous ...utterances as evidence of a grand plan ...to drive them from Wikipedia". These are the feelings you've clearly and copiously expressed so I can hardly be stated to be attributing anything to you that you have not said yourself, although not in so many words. I wish it were otherwise. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- My history on this article is a long and positive contribution, which can be assessed here, having brought 17,845 bytes(76.7% of the added text to the initial article).
- By contrast, The Banner has contributed not a single byte, as can be seen here, only deleted. Also deleted verified information, against all evidence, and without reason (even lying sometimes) as I evidenced here above at the beginning of this paragraph.
- And you want ME to be site-blocked? --Emigré55 (talk) 22:12, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. No amount or percentage of contributions to any particular article justify repeated aspersions and personal attacks. Just for the record, The Banner has created 380 articles, including at least two with an initial size of over 100,000bytes. By your logic, that should fatally undermine any request of yours for any type of block against them. In point of fact, however, this project can and does block or sometimes permanently ban editors with copious content contributions. I am not asking for a long-term block here, just a short one to prevent further disruption. You have the opportunity right now, this very second, to make changes that would allow you to keep contributing. I hope you take it but my advice has not proven effective so far. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 22:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- If your point is that you really want to prevent disruption, then ask The Banner not to fabricate the rule and repeatedly twist WP:RS/SPS by adding conditions of his inventions which simply do not exist in this rule. THAT is a true disruption. And you will then solve most of the problem HE created.
- If your point is "allow you to keep contributing..." and "make great contributions", a site block will bring exactly the opposite. For I will definitely lose the little remaining rest of confidence I still try to have in the community that it is able to control evident abuse of some contributors, like the ones The Banner allowed/allows himself on this article (abusive deletions to start with, but above all using a fabricated version of WP:RS/SPS, i.e, gaming the system, whatever his reasons on intentions for that can be). In that case, how can you imagine that I could still be motivated to further contribute?
- Food for thoughts. I sincerely wish you a good night. --Emigré55 (talk) 23:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. No amount or percentage of contributions to any particular article justify repeated aspersions and personal attacks. Just for the record, The Banner has created 380 articles, including at least two with an initial size of over 100,000bytes. By your logic, that should fatally undermine any request of yours for any type of block against them. In point of fact, however, this project can and does block or sometimes permanently ban editors with copious content contributions. I am not asking for a long-term block here, just a short one to prevent further disruption. You have the opportunity right now, this very second, to make changes that would allow you to keep contributing. I hope you take it but my advice has not proven effective so far. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 22:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. I have blocked Emigré55 for a week for persistent slow edit warring at the article and vexatious litigation here at ANI. Also for unreasonable deflection at Talk:Portrait of a Noble Young Lady (Pourbus), such as taking elaborate offense as the use of words like "yep" and "dude".[184] That kind of thing is a waste of the valuable time and patience of other editors. I considered a much longer partial block from Portrait of a Noble Young Lady (Pourbus) and its talkpage, but considering Emigré55's creation of the article and considerable input in it, that seemed cruel. It remains a possibility if their disruption at the article should continue after this short (all things considered) sitewide block. Bishonen tålk 09:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC).
edit warring and apparent white washing at Canada Christian College
| Discussion now taking place at Talk:Canada Christian College#WP:WEIGHT. ◅ Sebastian 02:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Over the past few days, 2 ips and a user: 76.10.169.60, 2607:FEA8:31C0:3520:2833:B935:EF57:8EE1, and User:Quartzgoldbling, have been involved in a lengthy dispute over Canada Christian College, which has been involved in some sort of controversy that somehow involves us. It seems like the user account and one of the ips are trying to do a little pr, while the other ip is trying to prevent this. I'm a bit at a loss to do, on whether I should block, protect the page, or do nothing, so I'm bringing this here so others can weigh in and more eyes will be on the dispute. Moneytrees🏝️Talk🌴Help out at CCI! 00:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Moneytrees🏝️ for drawing attention to this, but I dispute your characterization about my intent, so I want to be clear. This is not an attempt at PR (at least, speaking of my edits), but rather, an attempt to offer an objective view of an existing institution and preventing overt and excessive negative spin. Canada Christian College is currently under political attack due to having pending legislation for university status under review in the Ontario legislature. 76.10.169.60 has made edits on pages speaking about the Liberal Party of Ontario, and thus, is likely favorable toward expanding this controversy on Wikipedia. All observers can note that I have not touched past controversies (except moving information 76.10.169.60 placed in history under the Jewish Studies Department controversy) nor made any significant edits to the present university status controversy other than offering additional statements made by the college's President, which 76.10.169.60 explicitly chose not to include.
- However, 76.10.169.60 is continuing to fill the section on the history of the school (the most visible part of the page, as it is at the top) with an excessive amount of material from Toronto Star articles from the 1970s to create an unfair portrayal of the school. Moreover, 76.10.169.60 insists on including tangential information within the article, such as a college that was "affiliated" with Canada Christian College as well as the academic status of a defunct institution that Canada Christian College (*in the 1970s*) purchased curriculum from). Additionally, 76.10.169.60 continues to move the Academic Programs below the controversies in an attempt to foreground present and past controversies. I have moved them up, without altering any other content to offer a window into the current programs the institution before readers engage with controversies.
- Close to 500 students -- 80% visible minorities, 60% black -- currently attend the school and have their degree credibility at-risk by dredging up an unnecessary amount of hit-pieces from 45 years ago as "implied proof" that Canada Christian College as it exists in 2020 is somehow deficient in its academic offerings. There is no attempt at PR, but rather, a recognition that an overreliance on clearly biased articles primarily dating to the 1970s should not be given undue weight in an article about a college that currently exists and has numerous academic offerings, ALL OF WHICH have not been seriously questioned since 1999 (the most recent time full-degree granting ability for theological degrees was granted by the Ontario Parliament). As observers will note, only two or three sentences of the history even reference 1999 and beyond -- 21 years of the most important, current information about the institution missing -- while entire paragraphs are devoted to events 30-40 years ago.
One additional note: Moneytrees🏝️, I apologize for inadvertently breaking the Wikipedia copyright rules. 76.10.169.60 created a section on the school's code of conduct which quoted a single line from an article. I included the full student code of conduct from the Canada Christian College website so that readers could see the entirety. The code of conduct goes well-beyond "hot topic" issues and incorporates numerous smaller, more interesting items that deserve space in the article. If I need to paraphrase it I will, but I thought that citing its webpage would suffice. Again, I apologize and can move forward according to your recommendations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartzgoldbling (talk • contribs) 00:48, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
It's worth noting there's absolutely nothing on the article talk page. Recommend some level of protection (maybe pending changes). Also worth pointing out that Wikipedia prefers independent sources for all but the most basic uncontroversial facts. We cover aspects of a subject in proportion to how much coverage those aspects have in the body of sources about that subject (not including the subject's own website). Whether something should be included or how much space a particular topic should occupy is a discussions that needs to take place on the article's talk page. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:12, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments Rhododendrites. Concerning the aspects of a subject in proportion to the body of sources about that subject, the crucial issue is this -- for an existing institution that presently affects the lives of hundreds of marginalized individuals *presently*, is it defensible to place undue emphasis on sources 35+ years old centered on degree-granting issues when there have been 21 years of no similar controversies? Again, I am not arguing ALL history should be removed; its a matter of balance, not whitewashing. For living individuals, Wikipedia gives guidance for undue emphasis/negative spin (not only attack pages, which are usually instant removals). Why should such protection vastly differ when you're dealing with issues that impact hundreds of individuals as opposed to a single individual?
- Again, I have not substantively altered any controversies from the page (which would be textbook "whitewashing"). Indeed, all past institutional controversies (very hot topics!) have remained. The present controversy about gaining university status that is creating a media frenzy has also remained in an unaltered state.
- In the history section, I have continued to remove references to "affiliate institutions" whose controversies should not be brought into play within an article focused on a particular college. Two companies get founded by the same person; fair game to cross-reference them *on that person's Wiki,* but strikingly immaterial on each institution's page unless an explicit rationale is given (them being "affiliates" should hardly count, especially in an academic setting where schools have cooperative agreements and intiatives with one another all the time). Any school page with a reasonable history will have interacted in some way with other institutions. Should Harvard admissions scandals be added to the University of Chicago's page because they share faculty? How about MIT and Yale if they have a joint degree? I would contend, only if the FACULTY (Harvard, UChicago) or JOINT DEGREE (MIT/Yale) are in question. Simply having some affiliation does not mean that the controversies from one institution are suddenly bestowed upon the other.
- Lastly, I believe I have provided the "most uncontroversial facts" as a balance to the excessively negative spin being offered -- again, from sources over 35 years old, predating the current degree-granting regime. Specifically, the *current* degree programs offered by the college is hardly controversial; the current *actual* code of conduct [as opposed to snippets from a newspaper article] is hardly controversial). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartzgoldbling (talk • contribs) 02:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- The president of the college is quoted in the press criticising wikipedia. "It is sad that the NDP and MPP Kathleen Wynne would recklessly damage the lives of hundreds of students and thousands of graduates with mindless, hateful name calling, all while reading directly from a disreputable source, Wikipedia.”[185] I'm wondering if User:Quartzgoldbling or anyone else editing the article is a member of the management, faculty, or staff of the college or otherwise affiliated? Some of the edits suggest personal knowledge . 199.7.156.249 (talk) 02:49, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Quartzgoldbling FYI I took the liberty of formatting your comments above. Feel free to change if you don't like it. It's rare to create separate subsections for each response. We indicate we're responding to one another by indenting (increasing the number of colons before each comment indents by one more) and the signature takes the place of a name in a heading (remember to end each post you make with four tildes ~~~~, which automatically adds your username and a timestamp to the end ... otherwise you get those "preceding unsigned comment..." templates added by bots). As for the content of this response...
is it defensible to place undue emphasis on sources 35+ years old centered on degree-granting issues when there have been 21 years of no similar controversies
- what is considered undue emphasis is based on the proportion of coverage. we do tend to prefer more recent sources where they conflict with the past, but how much space to devote to various historical events is a ubiquitous question on Wikipedia. It sounds like you may have some valid concerns. I'd advise opening one or more discussions on the talk page proposing changes based on reliable sourcing or arguments based on WP:WEIGHT. Again, this page isn't going to result in any changes to that article, though -- this is just where people go when there are behavioral concerns that merit wider attention. It has done that job, but it's unclear that any actual intervention is needed other than perhaps protection (as I mentioned above). (Protection restricts editing of a page to experienced editors to reduce disruption, regardless of who's right). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 03:10, 28 October 2020 (UTC)- Rhododendrites, I genuinely appreciate the formatting assist and expanded response addressing my concerns. I will take your advice and move my discussion (which will pertain to WP:WEIGHT more than reliable sourcing) to the Canada Christian College talk page hereafter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartzgoldbling (talk • contribs) 03:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Quick update: just added concern to talk page and made an edit based on that concern. I look forward to fruitful discussion on all of these matters, and on my part, will aim for independent sources covering more recent news about the college. Cheers, Rhododendrites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartzgoldbling (talk • contribs) 03:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Rhododendrites, I genuinely appreciate the formatting assist and expanded response addressing my concerns. I will take your advice and move my discussion (which will pertain to WP:WEIGHT more than reliable sourcing) to the Canada Christian College talk page hereafter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quartzgoldbling (talk • contribs) 03:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
British automobile vandalism range
| Rangeblocked, everything here has been taken care of. (non-admin closure) — MRD2014 (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We need a third rangeblock on Special:Contributions/2A00:23C8:1194:D900:0:0:0:0/64, as the most recent block has expired, with vandalism resuming. And some British car expert is needed to comb back through the contribution history and fix all the vandalism. Binksternet (talk) 15:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Took care of the block. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:10, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Anyone willing to explain User:Szczeszek2035 that personal attacks are not allowed? I failed.
| Request met by Asartea ◅ Sebastian 02:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is anyone ready for the challenge of explaining User:Szczeszek2035 the basics of collaborative editing, of what WP is not, and of the prohibition of personal attacks? I feel I've wasted my time here and here. Note that the editor has already been warned about NOPA by another editor[186] but it doesn't look like it have worked[187]. Thanks. — kashmīrī TALK 15:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Kashmiri, (non-admin) I've left them a short note for now assuming good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asartea (talk • contribs)
IP address adding unsourced content and original research
| (non-admin closure) Blocked for a month by Scottywong. Asartea Trick |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
23.28.197.157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Diffs: [188], [189], [190], [191], [192], [193], and more. Has persisted since early 2019, despite a 3-day block in May 2020. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:18, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Clearly the same user, and no response to multiple warnings for unsourced content, original research, synthesis, copyvio, etc. Meters (talk) 03:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for 1 month. Let's see if that gets their attention enough to get them talking on their user talk page. If disruptive editing continues after the block expires, then keep re-blocking with increasing timeframes. ‑Scottywong [spout] 05:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Persistent WP:BLP problems at Rabiya Sundall Mateo
I requested page protection over sixteen hour ago, to no avail. There's been prolonged warring over the subject's full name. Any assistance will be welcome. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 18:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
JM199723
- JM199723 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)
- Single-purpose account, WP:MEAT. This user always add negative content to articles about China, make many POV edits. According to the interview of Epoch Times ([194][195]), this user said he has set up an organization to vandalise Wikipedia, and he maybe the Internet Water Army of Falungong. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 23:25, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) In the future, please remember to notify the user in question on their talk page as is policy here at the top of the page and the edit notice when you started this thread. I have done so for you this time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Could somebody provide a translation of the key points of those articles? Google translate doesn't give me something intelligble enough. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:59, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just to state the obvious, Epoch Times is not a reliable source. Guy (help! - typo?) 00:12, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- And I would especially not trust anything they have to say about Falun Gong, aka their overlords. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Reply: JM199723 is clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia. His only purpose is to add negative content to articles about China, obvious POV pushing. Then, he blatantly accept the interview of Epoch Times (this media is a propaganda tool of Falungong cult). In these interview, we can also find he set up an organization and unite Internet Watch Army (it is probable that Falungong's Internet Watch Army) to disrupt Wikipedia. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 05:16, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek and JzG:. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 10:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- DavidHuai1999 you have come here to promote a claim made in an unreliable source, not sure why you would want to draw attention to that. Guy(help! - typo?) 10:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think JM199723 maybe Falungong's Internet Watch Army. He accept the interview of Falungong's media, and Falungong's media promote him, glorify his disruptive editing. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 11:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Does the article actually name this account? If so, I'd like a translation of exactly where it does. Otherwise, this seems like WP:OUTING and should probably get sent to ArbCom instead. CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- The interview article doesn't name this account, but list some Wikipedia article what he edited. In this interview, he said he has edited English Wikipedia and German Wikipedia. See global account information, JM199723 also edit English Wikipedia and German Wikipedia. And according to editorial preferences and interview date, I can know the interviewee is this user. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 05:05, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Does the article actually name this account? If so, I'd like a translation of exactly where it does. Otherwise, this seems like WP:OUTING and should probably get sent to ArbCom instead. CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think JM199723 maybe Falungong's Internet Watch Army. He accept the interview of Falungong's media, and Falungong's media promote him, glorify his disruptive editing. --DavidHuai1999※Talk 11:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- DavidHuai1999 you have come here to promote a claim made in an unreliable source, not sure why you would want to draw attention to that. Guy(help! - typo?) 10:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- These reports on the Epoch Times claim that how the Democracy Party of China members Ben and his son Benjamin adding negative China-related content on English and German Wikipedia and intended to set up an organization named "Wiki Truth", which made up by the people with same intention, to disruptive editing on all-languages Wikipedia. That is all. 隐世高人 (talk) 12:40 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Leinster IPs, block evasion by Lapsed Pacifist and Claíomh Solais
I have been seeing a bunch of Leinster IPs editing in the same style as banned users User:Lapsed Pacifist and User:Claíomh Solais. The IPs are pugnacious in the same manner, frequently reverting established users,[196][197] and they blank their talk pages the same way, with mocking edit summaries.[198][199] Does anybody want to sort this out? I'm not familiar with the past cases. Davide King has been dealing with the guy at Grover Furr, Transcendental, Thepesar and Crmoorhead at Evo Morales and Luis Arce, while Beyond My Ken, Grayfell, FDW777 and Mutt Lunker were active in the sockpuppet cases against Claíomh Solais. Anybody want to pursue this? Binksternet (talk) 22:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Relevant links:
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Claíomh Solais/Archive
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lapsed Pacifist/Archive
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Apollo The Logician/Archive
Recently involved IPs:
- I assume per the latest (filed today) report at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Apollo The Logician that SpaceSandwich (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki) is the same editor, especially as they are active on Grover Furr. I don't know whether they are related to that sockmaster, or either of the other two. FDW777 (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Whoever they are, they were named SpaceLeninist before SpaceSandwich. All of these might be the same person. Binksternet (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- The recent edits on Luis Arce did whiff of sockpuppetry and I did look at the user contributions to note one minor edit on an obscure page followed by an attempted edit war and a refusal to engage with my points and examples of similar material on similar pages. A few of the Bolivian politics pages get edited by IP users who don't seem to have much history, but usually they fade away and I don't consider them further. I remember the 2020 election material that you linked to and tried to delete because using material from a party political page doesn't seem a good source for anything. There isn't any accountability about what they can claim on a self-published page, particularly (IIRC) for a party that is only the fifth largest in a country of 2 million people. Thanks for bringing to my attention. Crmoorhead (talk) 11:25, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Scolaire says here that it's unlikely that Lapsed Pacifist was the same person as Apollo The Logician because the two had an extended edit war. Binksternet (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
JIMBOB8 and BRD
- JIMBOB8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Jamie Vardy (edit talk history links watch logs)
Multiple users have opposed an edit to the Jamie Vardy page made by JIMBOB8 that changes how information is presented. While the user makes his argument in edit summaries, he simply refuses to discuss on the Talk page, even after an attempt I made to start such a discussion per WP:BRD. Note as well that this user has had edit warring issues in the past, and rarely uses a Talk page even to discuss controversial changes. Jalen Folf (talk) 19:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Stepping aside and retirement are completely different, he is still currently an active member of the national team until he announces retirement, he is still available for a call-up in the case of an injury crisis so he is therefore still playing for them. JIMBOB8 (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to hijack this venue to mention that I've noticed JIMBOB8 engage in disruptive editing for a while now. This is, by my count, the third time he has been reported here (once was by me). Here and here are two previous reports. In addition he's been engaged in a slow motion edit war misgendering Sam Smith, despite being told several times our policy on this. [200][201][202][203] That was a while ago, but he's recently started up again. [204].
- When can we safely conclude that JIMBOB8 is not here to build an encyclopedia? — Czello
- I’d like to point out that we may also be dealing with yet another sockpuppet of AH999(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Note the edit warring pattern at Hernanes compared to the last sock. If no one is opposed to this, I can take this to SPI. Jalen Folf(talk) 15:57, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Go ahead. — Czello 18:45, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- I’d like to point out that we may also be dealing with yet another sockpuppet of AH999(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Note the edit warring pattern at Hernanes compared to the last sock. If no one is opposed to this, I can take this to SPI. Jalen Folf(talk) 15:57, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Multiple issues at Louise Linton
nsrapp (talk · contribs) appears to be a WP:COI and perhaps an undeclared paid contributor. Attempting to puff this bio up with promotional content and a recent philanthropy section that was largely copied from sources. Requesting more eyes on the article and rev/deletion of copyright violations. Thanks, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
User:തീട്ടം കമ്മി: Block evasion, personal attacks and general tendentious editing
തീട്ടം കമ്മി (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) created their account a bit over 24 hours ago and since then has indulged in an exclusively disruptive pattern of editing across various articles many of which are also BLPs. The account is also most likely the same person as IP 2409:4073:2E83:5870:0:0:38CA:B803 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which was active on the same pages and was recently blocked for personal attacks and harassment through edit summaries.
The account is heavily invested in editing the page of the politician Kodiyeri Balakrishnan. The section they intend to introduce is accusations against family members of the politician in clear violation of WP:BLPCRIME. The aforementioned IP introduced the section and the account is being used to restore it. Diffs of edit warring and personal attacks in edit summaries from the user account on the page are as follows.
- 17:25, 31 October 2020 "Bineesh and Binoy Kodiyeri are sons of Kodiyeri Balakrishnan. His family, that's why his son's cases are added in his bio, commi anoop comrade"
- 18:41, 31 October 2020 "Some communist illiterate got hurt. But, it's a fact. Look the reference"
- 19:29, 31 October 2020
- 19:49, 31 October 2020
- 20:11, 31 October 2020
- 20:31, 31 October 2020
To me this appears to as a pretty clear case of WP:NOTHERE. Tayi Arajakate Talk 15:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Reverting my content
User named Tayi Arajakate and Anoop 3737 are reverting my content without sufficient reason.
What I mentioned in my content are all evidence based. Please check the reference.
തീട്ടം കമ്മി (talk) 15:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:തീട്ടം കമ്മി has been blocked for block evasion (see above). OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:42, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Harassment in edit summary
This Edit by User:Daccalimit. Possible sockpuppet of User:2.186.126.235 (who has been blocked for one month), as the edit is identical and the edit summary similar. Caius G. (talk) 11:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Favonian: This is almost assuredly Special:Contributions/2605:E000:2748:6F00:0:0:0:0/64, who has also evaded on open IPv4 proxies such as 84.167.3.195. May be worth a CU sweep, has past CU blocks. -- ferret (talk) 11:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- More than likely, Ferret, but I'm not a CheckUser so you'll have to contact them. Favonian (talk) 11:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Can do! @NinjaRobotPirate and Mz7: you both applied CU blocks here in the past and may be more familiar. I came across the IPv6 range a few days ago and dropped a block after I realized how deep the issue went. -- ferret (talk) 11:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Probably an LTA vandal based on the CU log. I can convert it to a hard block – nothing good is ever going to come from this IP. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Can do! @NinjaRobotPirate and Mz7: you both applied CU blocks here in the past and may be more familiar. I came across the IPv6 range a few days ago and dropped a block after I realized how deep the issue went. -- ferret (talk) 11:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- More than likely, Ferret, but I'm not a CheckUser so you'll have to contact them. Favonian (talk) 11:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Now at Special:Contributions/2A00:1910:4:AA1E:0:0:0:0/64, already blocked. As info @Acroterion -- ferret (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced information
SBS3800P (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) still continues to add information without sources or information that is blatantly false. Several editors have warned that user for 2 or so years but no action has been taken so far. Please deal with this ASAP. Thanks. TheGreatSG'rean (talk) 12:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=M._Geethanandan&diff=prev&oldid=978515765
| Nothing more to see here. --qedk (t 愛 c) 17:24, 1 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Anybody hanging around to take a look at what Citation bot has been doing? Going bananas I guess. Look at my last trials to repare. Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 13:05, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Bot problems should go to the bot's talk page. However, this doesn't look like it's got anything to do with Citation Bot. Special:Diff/953856648 seems to be where the "gravatar" nonsense was added to that article, if that's what you're talking about. It's hard to tell what you're reporting, though, because your report is so vague. If you have a specific problem with something that Citation Bot is doing, maybe you should tell one of the bot's developers. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comment NinjaRobotPirate. In the meantime I fixed them all manually and in the future, I will follow your advise: go to the bot's talk page if is a bot. I figured out it wasn't the bot after all. Glad I didn't react there
. The bot might have become angry with me. Lotje (talk) 14:35, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comment NinjaRobotPirate. In the meantime I fixed them all manually and in the future, I will follow your advise: go to the bot's talk page if is a bot. I figured out it wasn't the bot after all. Glad I didn't react there
Miki Filigranski - WP:CIV, WP:WAR, WP:VERIFY or WP:SYNTH
Miki Filigranski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Miki Filigranski replaced the map, that was in the article before, with the new one: [205]. Here is a page from the article of Mate Božić that the old map was based on: [206]. It can be seen that the new map seriously contradicts the source referred to (broadly speaking, a quarter of Poland with Kraków in the 10th century suddenly became Croatian, which is not at all considered the generally accepted view). I checked the other sources on Commons and couldn't find a reputable source that would confirm the new map (I cannot check the Croatian books, but I've seen the Russian ones).
During the discussions, Miki refused to provide a prototype of the map or in any other understandable way to explain its origin, instead making personal attacks: I am not wasting any more time with someone who has personal agenda stalking editors, blatantly lying there are no reliable sources and interpretation of the policy. Enjoy your block
He also violated the WP:3RR instead of providing the source:
Please explain to Miki Filigranski that while working on Wikipedia, he is obliged to back up his statements with sources instead of personal attacks and edit warring. I also ask permission to return the old map or delete both until the content issue is finally resolved.--Nicoljaus (talk) 10:57, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- FOUR acronyms... Whoa, that's bad. --Jayron32 11:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Well, what should be the title in your opinion?--Nicoljaus (talk) 11:36, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm just a smartass. Ignore me. This is what I do from time to time. You'll get used to it after a while. --Jayron32 11:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also, you're required to notify him that you brought him up at ANI. I've taken the liberty to do so. I'll note this is the third time his behavior has been discussed here in about a week, sooo..... --Jayron32 11:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jayron32: these two cases are unrelated, as well the previous one was an inflated misunderstanding that was resolved through emails. However, it doesn't change the fact the previous one was brought up after a content dispute where the editor who reported me didn't listen to me and other editors that the scientific content was fringe and cited from unreliable sources ([207]).--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also, you're required to notify him that you brought him up at ANI. I've taken the liberty to do so. I'll note this is the third time his behavior has been discussed here in about a week, sooo..... --Jayron32 11:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm just a smartass. Ignore me. This is what I do from time to time. You'll get used to it after a while. --Jayron32 11:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Well, what should be the title in your opinion?--Nicoljaus (talk) 11:36, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
This editor is editing in areas covered by WP:ARBEE, is he not? Do we need to impose some restrictions here? Mjroots (talk) 18:09, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, this report needs short context. The editor Nicoljaus is making WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and WP:WALLS commentary on the article and talk page of White Croats for over a year and even after failed and poorly-formed RfC, making a same baseless issue with VERIFY, SYNTH and which closure made them even more furious ([208]). Afterwards the editor was blocked for many months and after block expiration ([209]), they immediately returned edit warring at the same article of White Croats and in the process violating 1RR restriction of arbitration enforcement on Eastern Europe for which received another block for two weeks. And here are we again, immediately after another block expiration the editor still doesn't leave in peace the article's content and those who made edits ([210]). I violated the 3RR on their 1RR after they got blocked ([211]) for a few minutes because wasn't careful enough on the clock for which forgive me, but again, should the disruptive edit been kept at the article for hours and days? Does 1RR restriction has some advantage over 3RR? Regarding the content, the editor is still pushing their extremely biased POV by refusing to get the point about the topic, accept the editor's consensus and move on. I am really sorry to say it, but the editor is not telling the truth about the sources and synthesis. Their behavior on the article and misunderstanding of the topic as well as what's written in the sources got to the point where there's no denying. All the sources on which the map was based were reliable and reputable. This map is more extensive and neutral according to the available reliable sources, while the one made by Nicoljaus is based on a single reliable source which makes it biased and limited in information. As such, and a fact we are dealing more or less with scientific approximation on the location, in the creation of the map were used several reliable sources to make a more accurate map. Besides the map made by 1) M. Božić 2019 were used 2) H. Łowmiański 1964-2004, which work is completely dedicated to the location of White Croats and in conclusion locating them in Poland 3) V.V. Sedov 1979, which content and map on pg. 138-139 ([212]) is dedicated on the location and migration of the Croatian tribes and a variation of the map can be seen on Commons here 3) V.V. Sedov 1995, content and maps (1, 2, 3 of which the third can be found at Commons here) 4) IEA 1997, content and map 5) С.С. Михайлович 2010, content and map for Western Ukraine (for which could cite other as well) 6) A.V. Majorov 2012, which work is completely dedicated to the location of White Croats and Croatia 7) N. Budak 2018, which 10th-century map at the end of the book was used to make more accurate borders in which lived Croats in Western Balkans.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- In other words, one author writes about Croats in the 6th century in one place, another about Croats in the 8th century in another, and Miki transfers all these places to the map and calls it "Croats in the 10th century". This is WP:SYNTH. Let's go through the sources:
- M. Božić directly contadicts the new map (no huge Croatian area around Krakow): [213]
- Henryk Łowmiański was born in 1898 and died in 1984, twenty years before 2004. His work Początki Polski was published in 1964. I would prefer a more modern author. Besides that, does he really give such a map? As far as I know from Mayorov's book, he believed that White Croatia was the name of the ancient Bohemian state at the time of Boleslaus I.
- Sedov's 1979 book is also somewhat outdated (in later works he revised his views). But the main thing is that the map in his book does not depict "Croats in the 10th century". It depicts suggested migration routes several centuries before. And if you read the description to the map on the previous page, it says: "All known ethnonyms of Croats are within the area of Slavic ceramics of the second group", i.e. inside the red colored area on this redraw: [214] And on Miki's map, they spread far to the north.
- Sedov's 1995 book is very revealing. Although he earlier assumed migration of Croats through Southern Poland, he admits that no trace has been found and questions this location: [215]
- Old map from Russian textbooks. There are also no Croats in Poland in the 10th century [216]
- Well, this map, at last, really serves as a prototype for Miki's ideas. It is absolutely fantastic, and its author is not "С.С. Михайлович", but Semenyuk S. M. As I wrote on the map deletion page: "Mentioned Semenyuk is a complete freak. See his article in Ukrainian Wikipedia [217]. There is no education, he writes books that Poland, Hungary, Romania, Austria, Saxony, etc. are Ukrainian ethnic lands." [218]
- Majorov book says (p.51-52 of original Russian edition of 2006): "However, the "Lesser Poland theory" also finds a considerable number of opponents, who point out that the Croats in ancient times could not occupy such a vast territory. At least, there is no evidence of their stay in the upper reaches of the Vistula and on the lands of historical Lesser Poland: according to various sources, Polish tribes have lived here since ancient times." There are no maps in the book with such a huge area of settlement of Croats in Poland.
- N. Budak 2018 - I don't have access to this book, but Miki said that it was used only to "make more accurate borders in which lived Croats in Western Balkans." But we need source for Croats, occupying the quarter of Poland in the 10th century.
- I apologize for such a lengthy discussion of the content related issue. But it was needed to show - Miki cites 8 sources for the new version of the map, but only one of them - the fringe book of Semenyuk - somehow supports his views. I think this is something like WP:BOMBARDMENT. In any case, this discussion should have been conducted on the talk page - as you can see, it is rather difficult to understand what the map is based on. Instead, there was a war of edits and insults like " blatantly lying" and so on.--Nicoljaus (talk) 00:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, sorry, but nobody can have a constructive discussion with those who are constantly twisting and ignoring what's written in the sources. They are not talking only about 6th century, the area of Krakow and more was included in the Bohemian state until the end of the 10th century (map), the "freak" is a historian, and else is a simple cherry-picking statements. It is dishonesty and disrespectful behavior at best.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 08:36, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) - Small unnecessary addition: I tried to look at the book of Henryk Łowmiański. As far as I can understand from the Google translate of the text obtained from the OCR, White Croatia was sometimes located in Lesser Poland by Yugoslav historians, while Polish historians who knew Polish territory better and who "were better aware of the weakness of information sources about Croatia on the Vistula" - they have rejected this theory since the end of the 19th century. The own opinion of Łowmiański is the following: "Unfortunately, the testimonies of the sources about the original seats of the Croats are not clear enough (otherwise the issue would not be open to discussion) and allow for various interpretations. It was not possible to apply it - it must be admitted - due moderation, in particular by emitting the unclear text of document 1086. Therefore, the results of this research do not seem particularly convincing when it comes to the location of this people in Little Poland. (Niestety świadectwa źródeł o pierwotnych siedzibach Chorwatów — nie dość wyraźne (inaczej kwestia nie podlegałaby dyskusji) — dopuszczają różnoraką interpretację. W jej stosowaniu nie umiano zachować — trzeba to przyznać — należytego umiaru, w szczególności emendując niejasny tekst dokumentu 1086 r. Toteż rezultaty tych badań nie wydają się szczególnie przekonywające, gdy idzie o lokalizację tego ludu w Mało-polsce., Początki Polski, Volume 2, page 121).--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- It would be cool if we can see on this map not the expansion of Bohemian state, but Croatian people in the 10th century, as on your map.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- As first and foremost, start to comment in chronological order without constantly using asterisks because you're making a disorder and you could not have an edit conflict after almost an hour. Regarding else, you're again ignoring the context. The (Czech and) Polish scholarship in the 19th and early 20th century "
tended to diminish the existence of the Croats on their territory ... Polish scholars avoided to locate the Croats at Kraków and considered that did not border at Ruthenia because when Vladimir the Great attacked the Croats in 992 it would have been perceived as a call for war by Bolesław I the Brave.[33] However, whether the Cherven Cities were inhabited by the Lendians or White Croats, and were independent from both Poland and Kievan Rus', it is part of a wider ethnographic dispute between Polish and Ukrainian-Russian historians
". The subsequent generation by Łowmiański (and until today hasn't been written anything more relevant and new except for synthesis which extensively cite Łowmiański), who was a scientific authority on the early history of the Slavic people, revisited the primary and secondary sources and point by point disagreed with the trend of some older Polish historians. The "following opinion" isn't Łowmiański's conclusion on the topic at all. What you cited was the introductory part in which wrote about scientific literature and as such 19th-century scholars who located the White Croats and Croatia on River Vistula in Poland and those who didn't. Łowmiański in his conclusion of the analysis of the primary sources writes, in Croatian translation from the bookstore, "Concluding the analysis of written sources we can finally say that they clearly show the existence of Croats on the Vistula: one can also clearly accept the presence of Ukrainian Croats whose headquarters are on the upper Dniester because on the lower Dnieper were Tivertsi, and in the basin of the Bug and its near tributaries of Pripyat - Volhynians. Nowhere in the sources is denied the existence of Czech Croats. It is not excluded that Dragomira fled to the Croats who lived on the upper Elbe, that one of the Croatian tribes from the document in 1086 had its headquarters in the East Bohemian area; yet we find no original account to support that conclusion. Such a picture of the seat of the Croats is based on written sources between the 9th and 12th centuries and does not show a picture from the great migration period. Croats came to the Czechia from the east, but also on the Dniester they did not belong to the first wave of Slavic people who settled there, but came from other areas because they did not participate in the migration to the Balkans together with the Sklavenes who lived north of the Dniester. The area on the Vistula should be recognized as the primary nest of Croats; pg. 125-126, We stay with the second possibility that Croatian settlements in both Moravia and the Czechia were founded as a result of Moravian campaigns in the 9th century and then Czech in the 10th century against Croats on the Vistula before joining the Moravian and then the Czech state alliance... Thus, concluding this discussion on Croatia on the Vistula, we do not know to resolve the question of whether Croatia existed on the Elbe. We acknowledge the fact that the later tribes of Vistulans and Lendians were branches of the Croatian tribe. The second - Ukrainian branch of the Croats lived on the upper Dniester and certainly also behind the Carpathians
" (pg. 98-99, Zaključujući analizu pisanih izvora možemo na kraju reći da se iz njih jasno vidi postojanje Hrvata na Visli: također može se jasno prihvatiti prisutnost ukrajinskih Hrvata čija su sjedišta na gornjem Dnjestru jer su na donjem bili Tiverci, a u slijevu Buga i bliskih mu pritoka Pripetja - Volinjani. Nigdje u izvorima nije zanijekano postojanje čeških Hrvata. Nije isključeno da je Dragomira pobjegla k Hrvatima koji su živjeli na gornjoj Labi, da je jedno od hrvatskih plemena iz dokumenta 1086. godine imalo svoja sjedišta na istočnočeškom području; ipak ne nalazimo ni jedno izvorno svjedočanstvo koje bi taj zaključak potvrdilo. Takva slika sjedišta Hrvata temelji se na pisanim izvorima 9.-12. stoljeća i naravno ne pokazuje sliku iz razdoblja seobe naroda. Na područje Češke Hrvati su došli s istoka, ali i na Dnjestru nisu pripadali prvomu valu slavenskoga življa koje se je tamo naselilo, nego su došli iz drugih područja jer nisu sudjelovali u seobi na Balkan zajedno sa Sklavinima koji su živjeli sjeverno od Dnjestra. Kao primarno gnijezdo Hrvata treba priznati područje na Visli; pg. 125-126, Ostajemo pred drugom mogučnošću da su hrvatska naselja i u Moravskoj i u Češkoj osnovana kao rezultat moravskih pohoda u 9. stoljeću, a zatim čeških u 10. stoljeću protiv Hrvata na Visli prije njihova uključivanja u moravski, a zatim u češki državni savez ... Tako dakle zaključujući ovu raspravu o Hrvatskoj na Visli ne znamo riješiti pitanje je li postojala Hrvatska na Labi. Priznajemo pak činjenicu da su kasnija plemena Višljana i Lenđana bila grane plemena Hrvata. Druga - ukrajinska grana Hrvata živjela je na gornjem Dnjestru i zasigurno također iza Karpata).--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)- Thanks for this clarification, I really didn't quite understand the author's point of view. Of course, I do not agree that all subsequent historical science only agreed with Łowmiański - on the contrary, he seems to be "the last of the Mohicans." He was forced to admit that "White Croatia" could not be located on the Vistula, but eventually declared "Croatian" the Polish tribes that lived there. For example, such an undoubted authority as Labuda (1916—2010) consistently disagreed with him in his works of 1949, 1958, 1960 и 1988. Majorov in his book of 2006 clearly doubts Łowmiański's assessment (page 48): “And although the literature sometimes attempted to localize the Croats of King Alfred ... even in the upper reaches of the Vistula, where the Polish tribes of the Vistulans and Lendians lived, who supposedly could also be called Croats, the most convincing identification of them with the Czech Croats who lived in the areas adjacent to the Upper Elbe." Your map completely ignores all controversy on the issue; it can only be given with direct attribution to Lovmianski's book of 1964. And, again, this discussion should have been calmly conducted on the talk page instead of edit warring and other... things.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:28, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Where he was forced to admit White Croatia could not be located on the Vistula River? You're again cherry-picking and misinterpreting Łowmiański. Labuda also located White Croatia in the realm of Boleslaus I, Duke of Bohemia which included part of Vistula River and its area of Krakow. Do you understand that the present Czech and Polish borders weren't the same in the 10th century? Łowmiański isn't a single source for such a direct attribution. My map doesn't ignore any controversy, yours is doing that by being biased.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for this clarification, I really didn't quite understand the author's point of view. Of course, I do not agree that all subsequent historical science only agreed with Łowmiański - on the contrary, he seems to be "the last of the Mohicans." He was forced to admit that "White Croatia" could not be located on the Vistula, but eventually declared "Croatian" the Polish tribes that lived there. For example, such an undoubted authority as Labuda (1916—2010) consistently disagreed with him in his works of 1949, 1958, 1960 и 1988. Majorov in his book of 2006 clearly doubts Łowmiański's assessment (page 48): “And although the literature sometimes attempted to localize the Croats of King Alfred ... even in the upper reaches of the Vistula, where the Polish tribes of the Vistulans and Lendians lived, who supposedly could also be called Croats, the most convincing identification of them with the Czech Croats who lived in the areas adjacent to the Upper Elbe." Your map completely ignores all controversy on the issue; it can only be given with direct attribution to Lovmianski's book of 1964. And, again, this discussion should have been calmly conducted on the talk page instead of edit warring and other... things.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:28, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- As first and foremost, start to comment in chronological order without constantly using asterisks because you're making a disorder and you could not have an edit conflict after almost an hour. Regarding else, you're again ignoring the context. The (Czech and) Polish scholarship in the 19th and early 20th century "
- If you are telling the truth that Semenyuk is a historian, show his articles in scholar publications. Not books about "Ukrainian ethnic lands" in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Austria, Saxony, etc. that need to be united in a single Ukrainian state, but scholar articles. --Nicoljaus (talk) 09:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Semenyuk graduated history at the University of Lviv and in addition worked as a professor in schools and universities. I don't need to show anything. You don't become a historian by publishing scholar articles but by education.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- He graduated from the university in 1973 and did not even become a "candidate" (the lowest degree in the Soviet system for scientists). Please provide his academic publications over these 47 years, in which his views are somehow accepted by the scientific community. If there are none, stop promoting this "nationalistic bullshit" (quote from a colleague from RSN). As far as I see in this discussion, no one supported you there: "looks fringy" and "no sign of reliability" (another quotes). In the meantime, you react as if the author has doctoral degree in this field and dozens of publications on Scopus and Web of Science.--Nicoljaus (talk) 07:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Please, stop making false accusations. What "nationalistic bullshit" I am promoting? I am not promoting anything nationalistic citing a part about the Croats. Also, they are commenting on the reliability of the source, book as a whole, primarily using a quote from another person who's doing it on behalf of some organization. If you think that a critical review of some literature is done using secondary and third party context and not the source's content then you're missing the point completely and making Association fallacy. I am not reacting like that at all, I'm simply addressing that your representation of the person is done in a very biased manner. I already said before the report that the removal of the source isn't out of question. However, you're using that source reliability as an argument to make a bunch of baseless claims to make it seem like an incident.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- He graduated from the university in 1973 and did not even become a "candidate" (the lowest degree in the Soviet system for scientists). Please provide his academic publications over these 47 years, in which his views are somehow accepted by the scientific community. If there are none, stop promoting this "nationalistic bullshit" (quote from a colleague from RSN). As far as I see in this discussion, no one supported you there: "looks fringy" and "no sign of reliability" (another quotes). In the meantime, you react as if the author has doctoral degree in this field and dozens of publications on Scopus and Web of Science.--Nicoljaus (talk) 07:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Semenyuk graduated history at the University of Lviv and in addition worked as a professor in schools and universities. I don't need to show anything. You don't become a historian by publishing scholar articles but by education.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, sorry, but nobody can have a constructive discussion with those who are constantly twisting and ignoring what's written in the sources. They are not talking only about 6th century, the area of Krakow and more was included in the Bohemian state until the end of the 10th century (map), the "freak" is a historian, and else is a simple cherry-picking statements. It is dishonesty and disrespectful behavior at best.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 08:36, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have to say I am getting a bit of a wp:nothere vibe.Slatersteven (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oh well it does some so.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- WP:ARBEE was mentioned above but it doesn't look like Miki Filigranski is 'aware', their most recent alert was in July 2019 [219] and I didn't find anything in AE. I therefore gave an alert. [220] Nicoljaus who looks to be the primary other editor involved in this dispute has been sanctioned very recently [221] so appears to be 'aware'. Nil Einne (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Unidentified user:71.13.41.195
| garden variety vandalism has been taken care of. @Veillg1: recommended reading: Wikipedia:Vandalism. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Courtesy link: Théodore Canot
An unidentified user added "hi people" in the article "Théodore Canot" (section "Bibliography"). Please delete this inappropriate message. What punitive measure is appropriate in this case? -- Veillg1 (talk) 23:50, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)Veillg1, PearlSt82 has already deleted it. What administrative action needs to be taken? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Veillg1: That is minor routine vandalism, and you are free to undo it yourself. For mild cases like this usually no action by admins is needed. It's probably just some kid who has discovered for the first time that you can edit Wikipedia and is testing it out. More severe vandalism however, such as continuous or particularly vulgar and abusive kinds, do need immediate admin attention so admins can block the editor and do any necessary cleanup. You may report them here, but for straight vandalism and abuse you will often get a faster response at WP:AIV. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:00, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Teahouse legal threat
| BLOCKED | |
| Blocked by User:CaptainEek. (non-admin closure) Mr. Heart (talk) 13:53, 2 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Philip H Taylor threatened to sue Wikipedia at WP:Teahouse#HELP with edits and make Wikipedia delete articles. He also attacked User: Nick Moyes. Firestar464 (talk) 06:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- No question about this one. Personal attack and clear legal threat [222]. Meters (talk) 07:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Firestar464, appropriate notices added on user's talk page. Mr. Heart(talk) 07:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 07:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek and Firestar464: Thank you both for dealing with this. It's always nice to wake up in the morning with a threat of having one's ass sued right off. I wonder, however, whether the generous offer to employ a team of high-flying lawyers to go through all the non-notable artist pages for us and help us speedy delete them all is too good to refuse. It would save our volunteers so much effort in weeding out trivial and promotional articles. Nick Moyes (talk) 10:30, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
A follow-up
Ordinarily the above would be where things end. However, Phantom Blue - the article that the page he was seeking help on now redirects to - has been seeing an odd spate of vandalism from an ipv6 address that's been receiving warnings. User talk:Philip H Taylor seems to imply he's on those IPs but denies any wrongdoing. I'm thinking we have block evasion. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 16:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- diff in the event he blanks his user talk page again. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 16:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Persistent promotional push at Bashar Masri
| Blocks, protection. Nothing more to do. EdJohnston (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Bashar Masri (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Raynole87 (talk · contribs)
- Dreamerlight00 (talk · contribs)
- Karencxq03 (talk · contribs)
Even in its previous version this is an advert. Two Three promotional accounts have been working on this recently, and there's at least some copyright violation embedded, as from [223], [224] and [225]. Requesting user blocks, possibly page protection, and rev/deletion of copied prose. Thanks, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 16:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:Materialscientist and User:Ohnoitsjamie have blocked some socks. The article is now semiprotected for a month. There does not seem to be anything more to do. EdJohnston (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Persistent legal threats at Phantom Blue
| Page protected, 1 IP blocked Eyebeller (talk) 00:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Phantom Blue is receiving persistent legal threats by the multiple IP's which are strongly suspected socks of User:Philip H Taylor who was blocked for legal threats. Eyebeller (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Eyebeller, could we get specific diffs or users to examine these? (Non-administrator comment)Mr. Heart(talk) 15:04, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sure. Main two IP's are: User:2a01:e0a:185:c2f0:4c7a:77fb:b4cf:2ef and User:2a02:c7d:6445:9c00:3162:3d25:3534:7dce. I have clearly explained to the first IP that these images are free use on their talk page. Legal threat here - "Removing photo. no rights for usage were obtained by Universal Music Group. Stop stealing intellectual property unless you’re looking for legal action.". In this diff they say that usage of the photo is "illegal". Eyebeller (talk) 15:11, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Eyebeller, I do agree that this could be the same person based on similar interests. (Non-administrator comment)Mr. Heart(talk) 15:18, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- It is - See here. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 17:14, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Eyebeller, I do agree that this could be the same person based on similar interests. (Non-administrator comment)Mr. Heart(talk) 15:18, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sure. Main two IP's are: User:2a01:e0a:185:c2f0:4c7a:77fb:b4cf:2ef and User:2a02:c7d:6445:9c00:3162:3d25:3534:7dce. I have clearly explained to the first IP that these images are free use on their talk page. Legal threat here - "Removing photo. no rights for usage were obtained by Universal Music Group. Stop stealing intellectual property unless you’re looking for legal action.". In this diff they say that usage of the photo is "illegal". Eyebeller (talk) 15:11, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just a point - if we're using a non-free image because there isn't a free one available, why are we using a pretty poor black and white photo when we could use one of the many (equally non-free) colour images available of the band? Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
2601:484:C000:3900:ACC7:197D:B11C:EF47
| Blocked 1 month by LuK3. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:59, 3 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
For the last 4 hours 2601:484:C000:3900:ACC7:197D:B11C:EF47 (talk · contribs) has been changing italic text to "quoted text" with no apparent reason as they have not included a single edit summary. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Italic type we use italics where this user is replacing them incorrectly to quotes, for example Billboard to "Billboard"[226] (every other diff is the same issue, except for this contraction and it's strange they did it. I reported it to AIV as disrupting editing. Unfortunately, I know admins tend to overlook and ignore non-obvious vandal edits, but we don't have a "Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against disruptive editing" noticeboard. But when an user has already 4 warns asking them to stop, and has continued editing for 60 additional minutes, you are don't simply ignore the request. As I know AIV will not do something here, I have moved it to this noticeboard. (CC) Tbhotch™ 22:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Whitewashing an altright figure
| No violation, please take discussion to the article talk page. Liz Read! Talk! 21:50, 2 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
——– Wallyfromdilbert(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) –——
Courtesy link:Owen Benjamin
User wallyfromdibert continuously removes sources, evidence and proof from Owen Benjamin's page. When it is suggested he has political motivations, he becomes extremely defence. Yet he consistently removes any negative information from the page. Wallyfromdilbert removed a whole section of an article from The Jewish Telegraphic Agency, despite it being a syndicated and accepted paper, around since 1917. The author who wrote extensively for the JTA on Benjamin, and Wally simply removes it. There is no other reason for it to be removed, unless one was attempting to whitewash Benjamin and paint him in a positive light. Moreover, Wallyfromdilbert removed multiple quotations from Right Wing Watch, which is also a reliable and official publication. While some of Wallyfromdilberts edit are justified, such as removing links from GODTV and others, it is unacceptable for him to continue to remove acceptable sources in a blatant attempt to hide Benjamin's document behaviour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthBuster21223 (talk • contribs)
- (Non-administrator comment) @TruthBuster21223: In the future, please remember to notify the user in question on their talk page about this thread, as policy states at the top of this page and as you're submitting this. I have done so for you this time. (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this:
~~~~.) —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:21, 31 October 2020 (UTC) - No action is needed here for this content dispute; but if anything this should boomerang. Wallyfromdilbert's
initialmost recent period of editing's first edit was October 29, and was removing sources that on-their-face seem problematic; despite Truthbuster's claims the "Jewish Telegraphic Agency" source was not removed. There is now discussion on the talk page. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:32, 1 November 2020 (UTC)- Apparently there's a longer history than just this week here; I don't see anything too problematic in the past, though despite Wallyfromdilbert removing it from the article due to poor sourcing, Mr. Benjamin apparently has said that the moon doesn't exist. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it's safe to say that he's become a controversial figure, banned from all major social media platforms. I haven't looked at each edit of Wally's but the article doesn't seem whitewashed to me, it's frank about his outrageous comments and anti-Semitism. I don't know that we need to enumerate every crazy comment he's made. Besides this seems like a content dispute best handled on the article talk page. LizRead! Talk! 04:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Worth remembering on that point that a lot of controversial figures say a lot of "questionable" things but often only a small percentage of them end up being covered in reliable secondary sources. While WP:BLPSPS nominally allows the use of self-published material when it relates to the subject, this should be limited to simple stuff not the latest questionable thing the person said somewhere. Nil Einne (talk) 09:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Power~enwiki: Providing diffs for claims about other editors' actions would probably be helpful since I have no idea what information you think I removed. There was never any information in the article about Benjamin claiming the moon doesn't exist, and his comments about the moon landing that were reported by Right Wing Watch are still in the article. Here is the diff of all my changes since October 29. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- [227]power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oh ok, from over a year ago. Do you think that source and information should have been kept in the article? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 20:30, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- [227]power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it's safe to say that he's become a controversial figure, banned from all major social media platforms. I haven't looked at each edit of Wally's but the article doesn't seem whitewashed to me, it's frank about his outrageous comments and anti-Semitism. I don't know that we need to enumerate every crazy comment he's made. Besides this seems like a content dispute best handled on the article talk page. LizRead! Talk! 04:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Apparently there's a longer history than just this week here; I don't see anything too problematic in the past, though despite Wallyfromdilbert removing it from the article due to poor sourcing, Mr. Benjamin apparently has said that the moon doesn't exist. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
I think it is important to give a little more consideration to when a user like TruthBuster21223 repeatedly makes baseless accusations against another editor. Wikipedia is a very unpleasant place to edit when you have to deal with random single-purpose accounts like TruthBuster21223 who make comments about "political motivations" and "consistently removing any negative information from the page" without even any diffs. I think it would be nice if experienced editors took more time letting users like that who are uncivil or make repeated false accusations know that their behavior is not appropriate. Only one comment here even mentions WP:BOOMERANG or TruthBuster21223's conduct. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Hoang Dat La thang dien
Hoang Dat La thang dien (talk · contribs) Apparent bot editor making numerous edits in a few minutes. Seems to auto-restore content Adakiko (talk) 05:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Pinging interested parties: @Deadbeef and Donner60:Adakiko (talk) 05:35, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Adakiko: Thanks. I am not sure whether a bot is being used. It may be that the user just keeps returning quickly to a few pages where the user has seen the edits being reverted. User:Deadbeef and I have both reported this to AIV but the board is quite backed up right now. I also left a message on the user's talk page about this being the English Wikipedia and added Wikipedia page links concerning guidelines and policies. This has had no effect. Non-English is not the only problem because some of the edits have some English words but that addition is unsourced and not very clear. I am going to give up reverting this and hope that an administrator deals with it soon. I have noticed that a few other users have also been removing these edits. I should add that this is not to say you are not right about the bot. Donner60 (talk) 05:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
User Thucydides411
I am filing this report against the above editor in relation to his/her edit warring on the China–United States trade war article. Specifically, the editor reverted material that was arrived at through explicit consensus on the talk page and despite being warned that such (unilateral) action would result in escalation of the content dispute process to the appropriate forum. It's clear that this editor is WP:NOTHERE as he/she has had an extensive history of such battlegrounding editing on other articles, and I ask that administrative sanctions be imposed on the editor. Flaughtin (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have no idea what's going on at that article, but you shouldn't be WP:CANVASSING, nor mentioning Thucydides411 on other editors' talk pages without notifying them [228][229]. -Darouet (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) (edit conflict) I haven't taken a look at the original dispute, but the OP seems to be exhibiting WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior themselves by canvassing an editor here because of their
extensive prior interactions
with Thucydides411 and tohave the clearest idea of who my opponent(s) will be
at ANI. There's also clearly edit-warring by multiple parties there including the OP (e.g. reverts on the edits in the original complaint 1, 2). — MarkH21talk 23:42, 30 October 2020 (UTC) - TBAN both. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think both Flaughtin and Thucydides411 need to take a step back from that article, hopefully that can be accomplished without formal sanctions of any kind. Looking at the talk page you’ve both raised good points and there appears to be genuine disagreement about what constitutes consensus but at this moment you guys appear to be talking past each other and not really listening to the other people on that talk page. Sometimes its best to move on to greener pastures when you come to loggerheads with another editor. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:Darouet - I don't see how that's canvassing; as I said, User talk:Horse Eye's Back made significant emendations to the main article and had extensive prior interactions with the above editor, and so I only saw it reasonable to notify that user to participate in a debate whose result would have significant consequences for the article. If an administrator thinks that what I did was canvassing and if the use of my language was too extreme (use of the word opponent), then I will going forward self-correct. That said my actions (licit or otherwise) should not detract from the violation(s) that that user committed when he/she deliberately overrode the consensus on the talk page (which was arrived at without Horse Eye's Back's involvement) and administrators should note for the record that it appears that you aren't a neutral observer to this issue as the above user has commented in support of an arbitration enforcement request that you filed against an uninvolved editor on a separate issuehere. As you aren't a direct party to the debate, you aren't an administrator and there seems to be a conflict of interest (administrators are welcomed to correct me if this is a false accusation) on your part as you appear to have an established connection with the user in question, I'd recommend that you let the report run its course amongst the relevant parties and recuse yourself from commenting any further on it.
- Just as I had suspected, you've known Thucydides411 for nearly a decade and you even gave the guy/girl some Wikilove. Clearly you're not an unbiased party to this report as you have a well-established connection with the user and the fact that you (along with user MarkH21) responded to this report within minutes of my filing it (and which it should be noted also means the both of you responded within minutes of each other's response) suggests something more is at work. Administrators: I don't know what you call this and if there has been some stealth canvassing that's been going on (this is not a personal attack and nor do I intend it to be that, it's conjecture based on the best available evidence. However, if it is deemed to be a personal attack then I retract it), but whatever it is, something is afoot - i've never seen this pattern of response where an ANI is filed and then two uninvolved editors rise to the defense of the accused within minutes of its filling. To put it in street talk not even an ambulance (let alone two) arrives that fast in real life. In the meantime, as I said, I'd recommend that you (Darouet) let the report run its course amongst the relevant parties and recuse yourself from commenting any further on it. Flaughtin (talk) 04:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Flaughtin, there is no reason for someone commenting here to be "unbiased". We need admins to be objective when considering sanctions, but that's an entirely different matter. Drmies (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
... something is afoot - i've never seen this pattern of response where an ANI is filed and then two uninvolved editors rise to the defense of the accused within minutes of its filling.
First time at ANI? Lev!vich 05:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- I have User talk:Horse Eye's Back (from past discussions) and ANI (one of the most watched pages on enwiki) both watchlisted... the OP is throwing a bit of a wild accusation there. — MarkH21talk 05:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User talk:Levivich - no but compared to the other people on this thread I'm just a beginner. I don't know about you but ANI isn't really a place where I prefer to spend my time on Wikipedia. But since I am here, thank god they are here too to show me the ways of how best to avoid coming here in the future. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:MarkH21 - not an aspersion when I'm just stating the facts. You are not a neutral observer to this issue given our disputes on an unrelated article. I don't know why you need to get all defensive about it when i'm just telling it like it is. The same rationale is at work when WP:3Oprohibits editors from offering their opinions on disputes in which they have had prior dealings with either the article or editors involved. There's plenty of other reports you could have participated in but I don't see you there - as a matter of fact, this is your first intervention on this entire noticeboard. Nothing stopping you of course from participating in this one but let's not like act like you don't have a vested interest in its outcome. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- You conjecture that Darouet and I were stealth canvassed here because we responded within minutes of you posting at HEB's user talk and ANI. That's completely non-evidence since ANI is one of the most watched pages on WP, and is an accusation of misbehavior without evidence. I saw your inappropriate post at HEB's talk page so I commented here; it's not mysterious stuff.Also,
as a matter of fact, this is your first intervention on this entire noticeboard
is verifiably false, I have commented as an uninvolved editor on ANI threads dozens of times (e.g. here).I don't have any vested interest in any of this. That's your WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior assuming that editors are "out to get you". — MarkH21talk 19:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)- I don't know why you're getting all dramatic in making my conjecture out to be some kind of conspiracy theory. Neither you nor Darouet are neutral observers to the party: you and I have had disputes in the past, Darouet and Thucydides411 have had a well-established connection, and both you and Darouet each made comments against my report within minutes of its filing - I'm just telling it like it is because those are just the facts. And when I said entire noticeboard, I meant the entirety of this iteration of the ANI noticeboard. As I said ANI isn't really a place where I spend my time on Wikipedia so if this pattern of response where an ANI is filed and then two uninvolved editors (to the immediate dispute) rise to the defense of the accused within minutes of its filling is something that commonly happens here, then just say that's what normally happens. Until then I stand by my initial remark that something is afoot.
- There's a hell of a lot more I could say but per the recommendations of an uninvolved editor consider this my last comment to you on this thread. Flaughtin (talk) 05:45, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
If this pattern of response where an ANI is filed and then two uninvolved editors (to the immediate dispute) rise to the defense of the accused within minutes of its filling is something that commonly happens here, then just say that's what normally happens
: As Levivich hinted above, yes it's normal. Especially if you post on someone else's talk page asking for their help right beforehand. — MarkH21talk 06:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- You conjecture that Darouet and I were stealth canvassed here because we responded within minutes of you posting at HEB's user talk and ANI. That's completely non-evidence since ANI is one of the most watched pages on WP, and is an accusation of misbehavior without evidence. I saw your inappropriate post at HEB's talk page so I commented here; it's not mysterious stuff.Also,
- I have User talk:Horse Eye's Back (from past discussions) and ANI (one of the most watched pages on enwiki) both watchlisted... the OP is throwing a bit of a wild accusation there. — MarkH21talk 05:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just as I had suspected, you've known Thucydides411 for nearly a decade and you even gave the guy/girl some Wikilove. Clearly you're not an unbiased party to this report as you have a well-established connection with the user and the fact that you (along with user MarkH21) responded to this report within minutes of my filing it (and which it should be noted also means the both of you responded within minutes of each other's response) suggests something more is at work. Administrators: I don't know what you call this and if there has been some stealth canvassing that's been going on (this is not a personal attack and nor do I intend it to be that, it's conjecture based on the best available evidence. However, if it is deemed to be a personal attack then I retract it), but whatever it is, something is afoot - i've never seen this pattern of response where an ANI is filed and then two uninvolved editors rise to the defense of the accused within minutes of its filling. To put it in street talk not even an ambulance (let alone two) arrives that fast in real life. In the meantime, as I said, I'd recommend that you (Darouet) let the report run its course amongst the relevant parties and recuse yourself from commenting any further on it. Flaughtin (talk) 04:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User:MarkH21 - the revert was based on an explicit consensus to remove the material that the above user unilaterally decided to revert and what "edit warring" their is on my part does not compare to the extensive edit warring by the above user on the article with another editor (User:Light show). As I said if an administrator thinks that what I did was canvassing and if the use of my language was too extreme (use of the word opponent), then I will going forward self-correct. That said my actions (licit or otherwise) should not detract from the violation(s) that that user committed when he/she deliberately overrode the consensus on the talk page (which was arrived at without Horse Eye's Back's involvement) and administrators should note that you are not a neutral observer to this issue given our disputes on an unrelated article (Reactions to the 2019–20 Hong Kong protests and the corresponding talk page). As you aren't a direct party to the debate, you aren't an administrator and there seems to be a conflict of interest (administrators are welcomed to correct me if this is a false accusation) given our interactions on other articles, I'd recommend that you let the report run its course amongst the relevant parties and recuse yourself from commenting any further on it.
- Guy - Why? Everything I've done on that article has been strictly by the book and it's been nearly a whole month since I made an edit on that article. It's the other user that's been violating all sorts of WP policies and procedures (and not just on the aforementioned article).
- User:Horse Eye's Back - it's been nearly a whole month since I made an edit on that article. If that's not what you call "take a step back" then i don't know what is. On the other hand, during that time, the user above has been engaging in all sorts of edit warring (that includes you [230] and [231]) and ramming in all sorts of material that nobody has agreed to. I mean, really, the edit history is there for everybody to see. And as I pointed out at the outset, it's not just this article where the user has displayed this battleground editing/mentality, it's many others. If there's anybody who needs to take a step back (or be banned) from the article (or Wikipedia), it's Thucydides411. Flaughtin (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've agreed and disagreed with most of the editors here at some point across multiple venues. Plus, disagreement with someone at an unrelated discussion a month ago is not what a conflict of interest is and ANI isn't restricted to observations from editors who have never interacted with the reporter & reportee before.I just took a look at the actual article discussion at Talk:China–United States trade war/Archive 4#Discussion of former "Background" section, and I don't see how your own description of
three people who want it removed as opposed to two others who want to kept
is anexplicit consensus
. You're both edit warring. If the existing discussion is not reaching a clear consensus (which 3-2 is probably not), then open an RfC or another content dispute resolution method. — MarkH21talk 05:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- You're missing the point. You're free to participate in this report; my point is that nobody needs to take it seriously as you - as a matter of fact - just aren't a neutral observer to the it. The same rationale is at work when WP:3O prohibits editors from offering their opinions on disputes in which they have had prior dealings with either the article or editors involved. Aside from trying to deflect attention away from the act that gave rise to this report - the violation(s) that that user committed when he/she deliberately overrode the consensus on the talk page - I don't know why you need to get all defensive about it. And again what "edit warring" their is on my part (I made 1 revert based on explicit consensus on the talk page) does not compare to the extensive edit warring by the above user on the article with another editor (User:Light show).
- It's a clear consensus because we know who voted, what they voted for and how they voted. (for the record, this is also how our disputes at the Reactions to the 2019–20 Hong Kong protests article and the corresponding talk page has hitherto been resolved) At any rate, the entire debate is somewhat moot as the BURDEN of the argument applies to the other users since they are the ones who want to reinstate the disputed material. Of course the consensus isn't absoultely conclusive but it is sufficiently conclusive within the context of the disputes on that article - as I said, while vote tallying is not the ideal mechanism for resolving this content dispute, it is ideal enough for the way previous content disputes (on this page) have been resolved, and their outcomes have been, for the record, abided by by the participants involved. You are more than welcome to go through the edit history of the article if you want proof of this. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- That I disagreed with you on a different article a month ago doesn’t mean that
nobody needs to take it seriously
regarding diffs or comments that I point out here. That's grasping at straws as you battleground against every single editor in this ANI thread.You counting 3 editors vs 2 editors is not aexplicit consensus
nor aclear consensus
. Right now it's definitely not explicit since there has been no formal closure from an uninvolved editor, and 3-2 is roughly even (if it was formal closed by an uninvolved editor it would probably result in a "no consensus"). — MarkH21talk 19:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- That I disagreed with you on a different article a month ago doesn’t mean that
- I've agreed and disagreed with most of the editors here at some point across multiple venues. Plus, disagreement with someone at an unrelated discussion a month ago is not what a conflict of interest is and ANI isn't restricted to observations from editors who have never interacted with the reporter & reportee before.I just took a look at the actual article discussion at Talk:China–United States trade war/Archive 4#Discussion of former "Background" section, and I don't see how your own description of
- User:Darouet - I don't see how that's canvassing; as I said, User talk:Horse Eye's Back made significant emendations to the main article and had extensive prior interactions with the above editor, and so I only saw it reasonable to notify that user to participate in a debate whose result would have significant consequences for the article. If an administrator thinks that what I did was canvassing and if the use of my language was too extreme (use of the word opponent), then I will going forward self-correct. That said my actions (licit or otherwise) should not detract from the violation(s) that that user committed when he/she deliberately overrode the consensus on the talk page (which was arrived at without Horse Eye's Back's involvement) and administrators should note for the record that it appears that you aren't a neutral observer to this issue as the above user has commented in support of an arbitration enforcement request that you filed against an uninvolved editor on a separate issuehere. As you aren't a direct party to the debate, you aren't an administrator and there seems to be a conflict of interest (administrators are welcomed to correct me if this is a false accusation) on your part as you appear to have an established connection with the user in question, I'd recommend that you let the report run its course amongst the relevant parties and recuse yourself from commenting any further on it.
This is about the background section to China-United States Trade War. We've been at an impasse for months, and I agree that an RfC is the only way to solve it. Just to give some background, there are basically two versions of the background section under discussion, which I'll call A and B. I have objected to version A's use of White House press releases as supposed reliable sources and its extensive reliance on Op-Eds (such as two paragraphs based on a single opinion column by Thomas Friedman; all of the Op-Eds used by version A are in support of the trade war). By contrast, version B is sourced almost entirely to economics journal articles that discuss the trade war, and to a news article summarizing the trade war. There was recently an RSN discussion in which Light show asked about the relative strength of the sourcing for each version. Two uninvolved editors commented to the effect that version B is better sourced. Buidhe wrote, The sources cited look better than the ones they replaced
, while Chess wrote about the problems with version A citing government press releases as reliable sources, and the reliance of version A on opinion pieces. Buidhe additionally commented on the problems with version A making use of articles that were published before the trade war, and which therefore do not discuss it (my personal view: using these pre-trade-war sources enters into WP:SYNTH territory).
Anyways, we've been back and forth many times on the talk page. I've tried to ask Flaughtin what specific issues they see with version B, which just summarizes what economics articles say about the background: [232]. Simply deleting the section and proposing that we return to version A is not productive, particularly as it comes right on the heels of a WP:RSN discussion that pointed out the serious problems with version A. But I don't think this issue will be resolved without fresh eyes on the article, and I would favor an RfC. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- There aren't "basically two versions" there are at least 12 versions (stemming from your battleground editing/mentality) and that's just within the timeframe when I was gone from the article for a month. There's more if we go further back in time. If you want to reduce the version of the background section to the "basic options" there are actually three - A, B..................or C - which is to gut the subsection entirely. You couldn't even get that right. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- The OP (User:Flaughtin) has caused disruption at this article multiple times in the past few months; see the previous ANI discussion from August. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:46, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Administrators should note the above user is a direct participant to and supporter of Thucydides411's arguments/position on the above article and corresponding talk page, and has him/herself made disruptive edits on the main article ([233], [234], and [235]). Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- I came here due to getting pinged, but anyways I didn't specifically mention whether or not I preferred version A or version B (haven't really familiarized myself with the content dispute). I was making general comments about the reliability of certain sources in general related to international disputes; which is that opinion articles aren't always the best for matters of fact and that government sources have a conflict of interest. That being said, there are certainly cases where these sources would be appropriate, such as if government sources were being used to cite their claims on the causes of the trade war or opinion pieces were being used to attribute opinions on what the factual situation looks like. As a tangentially involved editor though, if you really have been at an impasse for months and believe the only way to solve this is an RfC, why hasn't the RfC been started yet? RfCs are the best way we have of clearly establishing consensus and while I understand that you feel as if a consensus has already been established and other editors aren't respecting that; the truth is that a formal RfC is the best way to establish consensus and that hasn't been done yet.
- You already have two versions of the article, A and B. Those are the two sides of this dispute; which version of the Background section should be used. Unless Flaughtin or another editor in this discussion is objecting and believes you're misrepresenting their position you effectively have all you need to create an RfC at this point. Chess(talk)(please use
{{ping Chess}}on reply) 20:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- Heck, I'll start the RfC for you if you want. Chess(talk)(please use
{{ping Chess}}on reply) 20:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- Anyways, I've created an RfC at Talk:China–United States trade war#RfC on the background section about this content dispute which should've been done a long time ago. Chess(talk)(please use
{{ping Chess}}on reply) 20:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- User talk:Chess Per your comment here, I've pulled the RFC as I object to it. (administrators are welcomed to correct me if I'm not allowed to pull an RFC in this manner as this is the first time I've done this) There's been no prior consensus established for it, it's an inaccurate description of the issues at stake, doesn't give the full range of options to choose from and there may be canvassing issues, particularly given the way this ANI request has developed. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- For reference, here's the RfC diff [236]. I narrowed the RfC down to two choices and tried to neutrally word exactly what the RfC was about (what version of the Background section that should be used). Earlier on in the discussion on said page you mentioned 12 different versions [237] of the section that's disputed. It's not tenable to have an RfC with 12 different options, and so I picked two versions that seemed acceptable to both parties. Specifically, for the first version I chose Thucydides411's last edit reinstating his preferred wording and for the second version I picked "version 5" in your earlier comment as that's the version you and Light show agreed upon. It's possible maybe the RfC should've been phrased differently or a third option that could've been added, but at the same time you need to have an RfC on this. It's incredible to me that this is the second time this discussion has been brought to AN/I and you still haven't had an RfC. Chess(talk)(please use
{{ping Chess}}on reply) 22:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC)- @Chess: I think an RFC is a good idea. Thank you for trying to start one. The RFC you started looked fine to me; it's also fine to add a third option if anyone thinks neither of those two options are acceptable. Listing 12 different options would be unnecessary and hopelessly complex. (To be clear, the previous ANI discussion was about a different issue, now thankfully resolved, in the same article.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- User talk:Chess Or we could get an administrator to go through the debate and make a decision; afterall there is a reason why this noticeboard is called ANI. An RFC at this point doesn't make sense because the content dispute for the relevant section is still continuing on the talk page (and so the fullest range of RFC options has not been discovered yet). At this point, it's best to migrate any further exchanges wrt your RFC to that page as this isn't the appropriate forum for it (and at any rate isn't the reason why I filed the report against user Thucydides311) Flaughtin (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- For reference, here's the RfC diff [236]. I narrowed the RfC down to two choices and tried to neutrally word exactly what the RfC was about (what version of the Background section that should be used). Earlier on in the discussion on said page you mentioned 12 different versions [237] of the section that's disputed. It's not tenable to have an RfC with 12 different options, and so I picked two versions that seemed acceptable to both parties. Specifically, for the first version I chose Thucydides411's last edit reinstating his preferred wording and for the second version I picked "version 5" in your earlier comment as that's the version you and Light show agreed upon. It's possible maybe the RfC should've been phrased differently or a third option that could've been added, but at the same time you need to have an RfC on this. It's incredible to me that this is the second time this discussion has been brought to AN/I and you still haven't had an RfC. Chess(talk)(please use
- User talk:Chess Per your comment here, I've pulled the RFC as I object to it. (administrators are welcomed to correct me if I'm not allowed to pull an RFC in this manner as this is the first time I've done this) There's been no prior consensus established for it, it's an inaccurate description of the issues at stake, doesn't give the full range of options to choose from and there may be canvassing issues, particularly given the way this ANI request has developed. Flaughtin (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Anyways, I've created an RfC at Talk:China–United States trade war#RfC on the background section about this content dispute which should've been done a long time ago. Chess(talk)(please use
- Heck, I'll start the RfC for you if you want. Chess(talk)(please use
This edit by the user above is further proof of why administrative sanctions needs to be imposed on him/her. At this point it isn't even a battleground issue, it's a matter of basic competency. Flaughtin (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- And another, this time involving another editor Flaughtin (talk) 00:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- You're not making yourself look good here. Complaining about other editors lacking basic competency while stating that an RfC doesn't make sense because the "content dispute is still continuing" demonstrates a lack of understanding about the purpose of RfCs which is to resolve content disputes. WP:RFCEND also outlines that you're not allowed to close RfCs because of a belief that the wording is biased, for what it's worth. You should also be aware that just because you filed the report against Thucydides311 doesn't meant that this discussion won't turn into an examination of your behaviour in the overall dispute. Chess (talk) (please use
{{ping Chess}}on reply) 02:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- You're not making yourself look good here. Complaining about other editors lacking basic competency while stating that an RfC doesn't make sense because the "content dispute is still continuing" demonstrates a lack of understanding about the purpose of RfCs which is to resolve content disputes. WP:RFCEND also outlines that you're not allowed to close RfCs because of a belief that the wording is biased, for what it's worth. You should also be aware that just because you filed the report against Thucydides311 doesn't meant that this discussion won't turn into an examination of your behaviour in the overall dispute. Chess (talk) (please use
- That's ironic when you were the one who unilaterally decided to initiate the RFC even though you weren't even a participant to the previous disputes. If you want to get all civil about it, you would have waited for my response, not least because even you recognized that I might object to it. Not do you what you did instead, which is to propose the RFC, recognize that there might objections and then go ahead with the RFC anyway. And while we're at it about civility, let's be clear: the only reason why this report was filed was because that user deliberately overrode the consensus that was explicitly arrived at on the talk page - we wouldn't be here if he/she had never done that. So if you want to turn this exchange into one about civility, it's only fair that you at least spend some time talking about Thucydides411's conduct, instead of just trying to make it all about me.
- When I said that editor lacks competence, I'm not saying it as a complaint/personal attack. I'm saying it as a matter of a fact - it's not just a matter of the user arguing that WP:INTEXT doesn't apply; it's that he/she doesn't even know that WP:INTEXT applies. Bekkers & Schroeter (2020) is a reliable source - it doesn't need in-line attribution. - those are his/her words not mine. And this is from someone who has been on this encyclopedia for nearly two decades. Completely different from the way I handled my ignorance with regard to WP:RFCEND where I explicitly acknowledged my lack of knowledge on the issue and asked for administrative guidance on it. I never said I was against having an RFC, I said I was against having an RFC at this particular time - you just didn't read what I wrote. And I didn't close your RFC because I thought that your was "biased." - you just didn't read the reasons I gave. It makes no sense to hold an RFC when the relevant content dispute process is still ongoing because we can't have an RFC when we don't even know what the options will be. (as we speak I am in the middle of reinstating some of the preferred material by the user in question from a previous version of the article to the extant version of the article as a compromise measure...which will probably be rejected and lead to another RFC option) Flaughtin (talk) 04:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- In-text attribution is required for opinions, but not for factual statements made by a reliable source. WP:INTEXT gives this example:
When using in-text attribution, make sure it doesn't lead to an inadvertent neutrality violation. For example, the following implies parity between the sources, without making clear that the position of Darwin is the majority view: "Charles Darwin says that human beings evolved through natural selection, but John Smith writes that we arrived here in pods from Mars."
- Bekkers & Schroeter (2020) make a number of uncontroversial statements in their background section, in which they review the economics literature. They're summarizing the majority view in economics about the causes of the US trade deficit. Every economics paper I've read on the subject has shared that same view. In-text attribution would give the false impression that this is the view of just a few economists.
- In any case, this is too much detail for ANI. Can we move forward with an RfC? I thought Chess' RfC wording was fine. We can also add a third "remove the background section entirely" option, if that's what you'd like. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- In-text attribution is required for opinions, but not for factual statements made by a reliable source. WP:INTEXT gives this example:
Need for admin intervention
This months-long dispute between the editors at China–United States trade war has escalated
- An ANI thread by Mx. Granger reporting Flaughtin (including a proposed partial block on Flaughtin by HandThatFeeds) in August 2020
- DRN case in August 2020
- DRN case in September 2020
- An RSN thread in September 2020
- An RSN thread in October 2020
- This ANI thread with edit warring/WP:BATTLEGROUND/canvassing/CIR accusations from & against Flaughtin above
- Chess's RfC being removed by Flaughtin yesterday.
JzG is the only admin to have commented so far, suggesting a topic ban on both Flaughtin and Thucydides411. This entire mess needs to be resolved and it looks like administrator intervention is necessary, whether it is via warnings, page protection, or further action. — MarkH21talk 19:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC); DRN threads added 20:03, 1 November 2020 (UTC); expand description of this ANI thread 20:38, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Just note that JzG and I have had some rather serious disagreements recently at Julian Assange (where JzG is an editor, not acting as an admin). At China-United States trade war, what we need is an RfC, because only a handful of us have been edited semi-regularly there over the past few months, and we're at an impasse. Chess recently initiated an RfC, but it has since been deleted. I hope it will be reinstated and can go forward. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:58, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thucydides411, This has nothing to do with Assange, and everything to do with your tendency to obsess over a small number of articles. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:03, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: I'm just pointing out that we have had (recent) conflicts elsewhere, in which, among other things, you have referred to me as belonging to a "small cabal of fans" ([242]). I would prefer impartial administrators to comment. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thuc, let's be fully honest with those who are not familiar with all the details regarding your history and conduct. Guy did act as Admin at the Assange article -- he placed a page restriction there per Discretionary Sanctions, in part because of your tendency to dominate articles related to Russia and US foreign policy. It doesn't advance your credibility on the merits to bully Admins such as Guy and @Drmies: to back off by claiming they're involved. That only creates the appearance you think anyone who objects to your conduct is disqualified from community process. SPECIFICO talk 21:57, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:SPECIFICO, I think that's a pretty accurate description of Thucydides's MO. I mean, I wouldn't call it "bullying", but yeah. Drmies (talk) 22:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thuc, let's be fully honest with those who are not familiar with all the details regarding your history and conduct. Guy did act as Admin at the Assange article -- he placed a page restriction there per Discretionary Sanctions, in part because of your tendency to dominate articles related to Russia and US foreign policy. It doesn't advance your credibility on the merits to bully Admins such as Guy and @Drmies: to back off by claiming they're involved. That only creates the appearance you think anyone who objects to your conduct is disqualified from community process. SPECIFICO talk 21:57, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't say anything about Drmies. For people who don't know the backstory of you and me, this sudden outburst of hostility is going to look pretty strange, though. Anyone who is curious about the backstory can look at WP:AE, where there's a discussion between a few admins, including Awilley and Swarm, about what to do about SPECIFICO's recent violation of discretionary sanctions restrictions at Julian Assange. My comment there has apparently led SPECIFICO here.
- We're discussing something else entirely different here, which is China-United States Trade War, where there have been various disputes about the background section on and off for a few months. Let's not let the drama from Julian Assange spill over here. There's an obvious way forward here, which is to let the community give input in an RfC about the background section. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) That's exactly what I have been arguing for from the very beginning. Flaughtin (talk) 20:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I think a ban on post-1932 US politics broadly construed has been mutually earned by Flaughtin and Thucydides411 for battlegrounding. They are generating far more heat than light and the time it takes others to deal with their heat (and walls of text) is wasted. Thucydides411 has a well known history of battleground style editing. Flaughtin dug themselves a deep hole at the article, and it gets deeper every time they post here. It is clear Flaughtin does not understand what is wrong on their end, so I think it will probably repeat. (Flaughtin, when you've dug yourself into a hole, that's a battleground; stop digging and just walk away). Disclaimer: I've had disagreeable interactions with Thucydides411. // Timothy :: talk 04:16, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- When you say that sanctions have to be imposed on me, then obviously I will have to respond. I wasn't the one who started this edit warring and I've been trying my best to back away this thread - that's one of the reasons why I've been arguing from the very beginning for administrator intervention on the trade war article. As I said in one of my earlier comments ANI isn't really a place where I prefer to spend my time on Wikipedia. Giving you the last word per your recommendation if that's something you wish to take up. Flaughtin (talk) 05:45, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think such a strong sanction needs justification. You can look at my contributions at China-United States Trade War, and see that my main contribution has been to find strong sourcing for the background section. I have gone and found a whole number of economics review articles on the trade war, and tried to summarize them in a neutral manner. Previously, the section suffered from a lack of good sourcing (it relied heavily on opinion columns and White House press releases). Anyways, I don't think my participation there has been a net negative. You're saying that I'm a "battleground editor", without actually looking at my contributions to the article in question or citing any diffs. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Repeated unsourced additions
Qwickthinkin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Despite a plethora of warnings on their talk page, including 3 final ones (I didn't bother to leave one today as they seemingly have no effect) and personal pleas, Qwickthinkin has neither communicated with concerned editors, nor have they heeded the requests to reliably source their edits as can be seen from this edit today and these just recently: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Please could an an admin remind them of the importance of WP:V and communicating with concerned editors. Robvanvee 06:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Hey Please remove the block
Hello team, please remove the block from my account — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.124.11.231 (talk) 12:23, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- @37.124.11.231:, there is no block on your account. Do you have another account?Deb (talk) 12:33, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- @37.124.11.231: if your account is blocked, you must log into it and make an unblock request on your account's talk page, or if you do not have talk page access you can appeal to the unblock ticket request system. We cannot process a request to unblock your account when you are not logged in. Please see the guide to appealing blocks. Thank you. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:25, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Still trying to stop two ranges of Pennsylvania IPs adding too much plot text
Restoring a post from archive...
- I've been trying to talk to a Pennsylvania user but this person does not communicate at all. They keep adding too much film plot detail in violation of the guideline WP:FILMPLOT, making the plot section far too large. They have been repeatedly warned about adding too much detail to Bohemian Rhapsody (film), for instance, but they keep coming back. There's apparently zero interest in making an edit summary or a talk page entry. The current ranges are Special:Contributions/2601:547:1:84B0:0:0:0:0/64 and Special:Contributions/2601:543:4404:94A0:0:0:0:0/64, active for 14 and 13 months, respectively. Before that, the range was Special:Contributions/2601:543:4400:87:0:0:0:0/64, active from Jan 2018 to Sep 2019, also without an edit summary or talk page entry. And before that, I think there were some IP4s involved, starting in 2015: 24.154.239.241, 24.154.232.211, 24.154.232.234 and 71.185.171.23. Many thousands of edits in all. Can we get two rangeblocks? Binksternet (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is a tough one, which is probably why your request didn't get a response previously and had to be unarchived. This user's behavior is obviously disruptive, but it's not so extreme that you'd normally be blocked for it. However, given the very long-term nature of this behavior and the user's refusal to engage with anyone about it, I think it makes sense to "throw a shot across their bow" to see if it wakes them up and gets them talking to someone. I've blocked both ranges for 1 month. ‑Scottywong [chatter] 05:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the action. I will communicate with this person if they surface at a talk page. Binksternet (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is a tough one, which is probably why your request didn't get a response previously and had to be unarchived. This user's behavior is obviously disruptive, but it's not so extreme that you'd normally be blocked for it. However, given the very long-term nature of this behavior and the user's refusal to engage with anyone about it, I think it makes sense to "throw a shot across their bow" to see if it wakes them up and gets them talking to someone. I've blocked both ranges for 1 month. ‑Scottywong [chatter] 05:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Range IP vandals
A number of vandals in the 2401:4900:51 are changing long standing dates in Indian (mainly 19thC) articles. Such as [[243]], [[244]], [[245]]. There may be other dubious edits as well.Slatersteven (talk) 14:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Can we narrow this down? Not everything in Special:Contributions/2401:4900:5100:0:0:0:0:0/36 is bad. EdJohnston (talk) 14:18, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've blocked Special:Contributions/2401:4900:5130:0:0:0:0:0/38 for two weeks. EdJohnston (talk) 16:19, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Mini-Sock farm at Friend of Dorothy
| Resolved. See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jazzywound -- The Anome (talk) 17:11, 2 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could someone semi-protect Friend of Dorothy? A group of anons/brand new users inserting what looks to be a joke quote. Thank you in advance! Gleeanon 09:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- This seems to be a meme-pushing campaign; I've semi-protected that article for a month to stop it. -- The Anome (talk) 09:15, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Port Perry High School
| The range Special:Contributions/2607:fea8:2ba0:1f6::/64 has been blocked by User:Acroterion. EdJohnston (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Port Perry High School (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
Requesting range block for IP 2607:FEA8:2BA0:1F6. Disruptive individual constantly switching IPs every time he/she is reverted at Port Perry High School. Jerm (talk) 01:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- /64 range blocked for six months, since two earlier blocks haven't gotten the point across, I'll watchlist the article. Acroterion (talk) 02:02, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Acroterion Thanks. I also had made a request at WP:RPP, but since your keeping the page on watch, I went ahead and removed the request. Jerm (talk) 02:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- It just seems to be that single IP range, a single user, so I don't think protection will be needed. Acroterion (talk) 02:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Acroterion Thanks. I also had made a request at WP:RPP, but since your keeping the page on watch, I went ahead and removed the request. Jerm (talk) 02:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Page protection request
Please add protection to Aramaic, which has faced persistent vandalism in the last few hours. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've actually just blocked that IP, separately, for edit warring. This seems like a content dispute though. Canterbury Tail talk 22:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
XiAdonis behavior: Japanese ultranationalist?
- XiAdonis (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- ABCD line (edit talk history links watch logs)
- APA Group (Japan) (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Uyoku dantai (edit talk history links watch logs)
XiAdonis has been warned by Ian.thomson about bringing to Wikipedia the ideas of uyoku dantai, far-right Japanese nationalism and denialism.[247] In October, I warned XiAdonis three times against edit warring, with no improvement in behavior. Myself and Ian have been trying to talk to XiAdonis to stop the disruption, but he continues. I think it's time for bigger action. Binksternet (talk) 18:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am not an ultranationalist, i am trying to discuss an article with you but you refuse to explain your reasoning for an edit or to even acknowledge my existence, you just revert my edits and accuse me of edit warring (which i do not fit the qualifications for). I am open to bringing in a third party but you really need to improve your conduct, you are misrepresenting our interactions and trying to slander me by likening me to uyoku dantai. XiAdonis (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Above, I added names of some articles where the editor has been active. The user made a series of four identical reverts at ABCD line over the period from 19 October through 2 November, on the subject of Japanese militarism in the 1930s. There has been a talk page discussion at Talk:Uyoku dantai#Censorship and historical negationism. From that thread it's not clear whether XiAdonis is trying to deny the reality of the 1937 Nanjing massacre. In that discussion, User:Ian.thomson's point about WP:FALSEBALANCE seems well taken. If the Uyoku dantai sincerely believe that the Nanjing massacre did not happen I'm not sure if that is a point in their favor or helps to prove their sincerity. EdJohnston (talk) 18:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- The wording of the article as is implies these people acknowledge the nanjing massacre as fact and are trying to censor any mention of it, this is not true their motivations lie in altering what they perceive to be an incorrect version of history, i am making no claims about the veracity of anything i just want their motivations to be portrayed accurately WP:FALSEBALANCE can be avoided because im not portraying their views as equal to or as an alternative to mainstream history but clearly labeling them as their own views. I'm not going to be editing the Uyoku Dantai article anymore but i will continue to discuss this in the talk page to see if another editor wants to do something about it. sorry if this isnt the place to write this — Preceding unsigned comment added by XiAdonis (talk • contribs) 19:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Uyoku dantai, like all fascists, don't care about truth, only power. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Above, I added names of some articles where the editor has been active. The user made a series of four identical reverts at ABCD line over the period from 19 October through 2 November, on the subject of Japanese militarism in the 1930s. There has been a talk page discussion at Talk:Uyoku dantai#Censorship and historical negationism. From that thread it's not clear whether XiAdonis is trying to deny the reality of the 1937 Nanjing massacre. In that discussion, User:Ian.thomson's point about WP:FALSEBALANCE seems well taken. If the Uyoku dantai sincerely believe that the Nanjing massacre did not happen I'm not sure if that is a point in their favor or helps to prove their sincerity. EdJohnston (talk) 18:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- As can be seen in this diff that Binksternet already posted where I warned XiAdonis, in the XiAdonis's first 50 edits 28 of their edits form 13 readily identifiable episodes of problematic behavior. (The edits I did not comment on are not necessarily great, either... Although the article "Anti-Japaneseism" has some bad grammar that really seems to be the least of its worries, since it seems to be cobbled from primary sources like Ryu Ota). In the 19 edits since I left that warning, they have doubled down on that behavior. In light of their edits, their response that they'll use the talk page more comes across as an attempt to switch to WP:CIVILPOV, but then they edit warred. A topic ban from Japanese politics after 1926 is the minimum necessary action to enable this user to become a fully useful editor. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Mostly seeing a content dispute here. Not seeing great behavior from either side if I am honest. PackMecEng (talk) 04:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Multiple copyright violations by 100.11.62.135?
100.11.62.135 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) has many edit summaries such as Copied from library science today, copied from Timeline of women in library science, copied from Loriene Roy today, etc. This implies a lot of copyright violations. I removed the latest edit as of now, but there appear to be many more. Not sure how to proceed with this. Adakiko (talk) 06:02, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- They are actually doing it right. See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia#Proper attribution. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 06:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Casting aspersions, personal attacks from Normal Op
| Given evidence of recidivism very shortly following the lifting of the previous ban, and per overwhelming community consensus, Normal Op (talk · contribs)'s previous indefinite topic ban "from participating in all topics related to dogs and canines" is restored. There is significant support for expanding the scope of the ban but no consensus as to what that scope should be, and since there were no more comments in a long enough time that the thread was automatically archived and the user has retired, no further sanctions are imposed. As such, further incidents of this behaviour in other topic areas will likely result in a sitewide ban. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:22, 5 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Normal Op was previously topic banned from pit bulls/dangerous dogs (ANI report), during which they were blocked for socking to circumvent the ban. They were later unbanned with the advice that they steer clear of pit bulls.
Since they have been unbanned, they have been uncivil and repeatedly cast aspersions and personal attacks against other editors in this area. They must recent and most egregious is in an AfD discussion where they insult another editor, Doomsdayer520, by saying, among other things At least my contribution has resulted in an improved encyclopedia; your contribution has only resulted in pissing me off.
. In previous discussions related to other animal matters, they have baselessly accused me of lying, cast aspersions at Cavalryman, and accusing him of gaming the system, and cast aspersions at Atsme, baselessly accusing her of COI.
Additionally, they have submitted a lot of articles for deletion that resulted in keep votes:
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of veterinarians
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animal Rescue Sofia
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Project Bay Cat
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dog camp (2nd nomination)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lois Leveen
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Loving Hut
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animal Rescue Foundation
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Regan Russell
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jill Phipps (2nd nomination)
while this isn't a problem in and of itself, combined with the hostility and previous problematic behavior in this area suggests WP:GAMEy behavior.
Since their topic ban, they have been warned a number of times 1, 2, 3 about their behavior, but it is still persisting.
I'm requesting that Normal Op's topic ban on dogs be reinstated and extended to animals in general. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I have seen Normal Op around the project and they are a net positive. I do hope that they would listen to the two admins who recently warned them: 1, 2. Perhaps they can agree to take a step back because none of this looks good. Sometimes we all get hot and need to simmer down. Lightburst (talk) 14:11, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Response from accused: I wasn't aware that counting AfD statuses was a competition, and I'm not all stuck on seeing an article deleted that I nominate. In fact, in some cases I have afterwards enhanced or re-worked a poorly written article I had nominated for AfD which was decided as Keep. In other cases, I have rescued articles nominated for AfD by others through enhancing them so well during the AfD process that they are Kept. On the flip side of AfD nominations, here are 15 AfDs I nominated that were decided as Delete: Clifton report, K9 Pro Sports, Street dogs in Chennai, Dog Scouts of America, Kitten Rescue, Rescue Chocolate, Lawyers to the Rescue, Delta Humane Society & SPCA, Rent My Wedding, Pritzker Military Presents, Muttshack Animal Rescue Foundation, WiseStamp (2nd nomination), Western Plains Animal Refuge, List of governments supporting trap–neuter–return, and Annie Harvilicz. And here are 5 AfDs still open: New Woodlands Hotel, Humane Society of Huron Valley, Richmond SPCA, Animal Liberation (album), and Indian microlight aircraft competition — 3 of which will probably be decided Delete, 1 probably Keep (been enhanced since nomination), and 1 still up in the air. You might as well excoriate me for !voting on the wrong side of an AfD.
- Now, PearlSt82, if you're going to write a report on me then you should get your details right (like where another editor corrected you about details on this ANI post [248]). The "sock" you mention was a houseguest who visited me in the month after the 2019 ANI and was not me and wasn't "during" the ANI. Further, I have submitted a detailed UPE report on you, proving your connection to the industry. Your own edits [249] in a very narrow window of topics (pit bulls, dog bites, breed-specific legislation, and fatal dog attacks) are the longest running single-purpose account I've seen in Wikipedia. Your COI on "pit bull topics", along with another editor who has connections to a (bully-breed) dog breeding business, are the complete source of my troubles with "pit bull topics". As for AfDs, of course there are AfDs where some were deemed Keep; that's the nature of community consensus. I'll remind you of your own Support !vote at my request to un-topic-ban:
"Normal Op has come a long ways in ten months and has made a great deal of positive contributions to the project, and has clearly been learning the law of the land. I think the most important takeaway is that Wikipedia is a community-based consensus project, not a battleground of who is right and wrong, and their recent contributions have shown a great deal of evidence of this."
[250]Normal Op (talk) 16:20, 17 October 2020 (UTC)- I'd love to read your evidence of my connection to the industry, because there isn't one. I did indeed support removal of your topic ban, but your edits and personal attacks since have been disruptive despite multiple warnings. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Also it completely strains credulity that a houseguest would edit only in articles related to dangerous dogs and animals while you were topic banned. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Again, you need to get your facts straight, PearlSt82. I wasn't "topic banned from pit bulls/dangerous dogs" (as you wrote in your first sentence of this ANI post). And not only did my houseguest NOT edit in "dangerous dogs" topics (as you assert), but looking at the list of articles they did edit [251], 49 of the 50 topics I had not edited in before, and only about 3 have I edited since then (a year later). Their single edit to the one article I had edited, was to add a new fatality of a baby boy (mauled to death by the family pit bull) that happened during the time of their visit with me. [252] You have been targeting me since early 2019 when I first discovered the Dogsbite.org article; a topic on which you have put an extraordinary effort into defaming since at least 2015 [253], nay, since your very first edit on a dog topic in 2013 [254] (over 5 years before I even came to Wikipedia). Normal Op (talk) 17:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC) Correction: Pardon me, I made a mistake when I said your first dog article edit when in fact it was your second. The first edit was also on the same topic, however, [255], as was the third [256] (which included a most curious choice of citation). Normal Op (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Normal Op:, A houseguest visited you and edited Wikipedia? You filed a UCE report?! Seriously, you seem to be making baseless accusations against people. This is my userpage[citation needed]and this is my talk page[citation needed] 15:29, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Again, you need to get your facts straight, PearlSt82. I wasn't "topic banned from pit bulls/dangerous dogs" (as you wrote in your first sentence of this ANI post). And not only did my houseguest NOT edit in "dangerous dogs" topics (as you assert), but looking at the list of articles they did edit [251], 49 of the 50 topics I had not edited in before, and only about 3 have I edited since then (a year later). Their single edit to the one article I had edited, was to add a new fatality of a baby boy (mauled to death by the family pit bull) that happened during the time of their visit with me. [252] You have been targeting me since early 2019 when I first discovered the Dogsbite.org article; a topic on which you have put an extraordinary effort into defaming since at least 2015 [253], nay, since your very first edit on a dog topic in 2013 [254] (over 5 years before I even came to Wikipedia). Normal Op (talk) 17:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC) Correction: Pardon me, I made a mistake when I said your first dog article edit when in fact it was your second. The first edit was also on the same topic, however, [255], as was the third [256] (which included a most curious choice of citation). Normal Op (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animal Liberation (album), Normal Op called for the article's deletion. I disagreed and recommended that Normal Op read some WP policies on inappropriate nominations and how to improve an article rather than delete it. You can see my comments for yourself. Normal Op construed this as a "personal attack", but then got far more personal with me, accusing me of: "all you have to contribute to AfD discussions is to insult nominators", "you weren't willing to do [the work] yourself", "you should consider staying away from AfD discussions lest you run off more editors", and "your contribution has only resulted in pissing me off." That looks much more like a personal attack toward me, and it also shows no knowledge of my body of work at WP. I'm an adult and can handle it, but truly wonder if someone who reacts to a minor disagreement in this fashion, and there is evidence that it happens a lot, can contribute constructively to a volunteer community. ☆ DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK CONTRIBS) ☆ 17:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, Normal Op can and does make positive contributions to the project. On the flip side they can and do assume bad faith in the contributions of others, particularly if they take an opposing position to Normal Op’s but, as shown in my second interaction with them linked above, sometimes where absolutely no opposition exists. Their casting of aspersions against Atsme, someone who openly reveals their true identity and even provides links their profiles on other platforms, is particularly egregious. I am unsure what would remedy this, they have received multiple warnings. Cavalryman (talk) 23:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- The only interactions I've had with Normal Op that I recall have been on the List of fatal dog attacks in the United States article, where this editor is responsible for 60% of the text (authorship attribution), and I have made a total of just three edits (the third of which just corrected a technical error introduced by my second edit). Both of my two substantive edits were reverted by Normal Op (DIFF 1, DIFF2), who also felt the need to drop an edit-warring notice on my talk that was reverted by another editor sixteen minutes later (thanks, BilCat). The pot calling the kettle black? I was bold, Normal Op reverted me. Twice. My second edit was not the same as my first. So OK, discuss. There hasn't been an adequate response to the concern I raised on the talk page. See Talk:List of fatal dog attacks in the United States#Fatal dog attacks "rare"? and the section below that. wbm1058 (talk) 12:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- That 60% figure is only because someone just split the page and there's only one year left in it... 2020. So I'm responsible for adding 60% of the content for fatalities in 2020. Before the split, just two days ago, I was responsible for 42% of the content [257] (fatalities in 2010-2020), and before the first article-split (in early 2019), when ALL the fatalities were on one page and I had finished the bulk of my work adding dozens of fatalities, I had still only authored 8% of the page [258]. That list-article has been edited for over 11 years and 4,000 edits; having been started 9 years before I was even an editor here. I am NOT the predominant editor for the content (of four list-pages of fatalities). Normal Op (talk) 18:15, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I do not recall coming across Normal Op before a week or two ago, but the user certainly seems to have an axe to grind when it comes to coverage of animal welfare/animal rights on Wikipedia. They have some rather surprising interpretations of policy, and this leads to some less-than-stellar interactions with other editors. For example, consider their conduct a couple of days ago on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animal Liberation (album) and the complete refusal to listen to others because they used the "esoteric mumbo-jumbo" (!) that is the normative/descriptive distinction. I was not impressed by Normal Op's choice to refer to vegans as "veggers" at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of vegetarians (4th nomination). At first, I thought they were evoking vigger, which is intended as a slur. They assured me, however, that this was "merely a word [they] coined", apparently to contrast "veggers" with "normal people". Josh Milburn (talk) 13:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support topic ban I noticed NormalOp's unpleasant behavior in this AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fatal dog attacks in the United States and saw that they'd been warned to stop casting aspersions and making personal attacks. Unfortunately, it looks like they've continued on the same tack since then, and it appears that their incivility and aggression extend beyond the narrow topic of dog attacks and into the subjects of animal welfare and vegetarianism as well. I don't know if they're capable of being civil elsewhere on the site, but they've demonstrated that within those topics, they either can't stop or won't stop personalizing disputes and making unfounded accusations. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 16:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- I participated in that AfD. Normal op was a bit bludgeony in there. And it went to DRV. Lightburst (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment - regarding the second paragraph above:
At least my contribution has resulted in an improved encyclopedia; your contribution has only resulted in pissing me off
, there is no disrespect in a pissed-off man stating that he is pissed-off. Inelegant English perhaps, but nothing to be ashamed of. William Harris (talk) 09:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)- I agree. What I objected to was not that Normal Op was pissed off (or said so), but the aspersions made about the editor who pissed them off. It seems, from this thread and the previous topic ban, that this casting of aspersions was far from a one-off. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Both Doomsdayer520's dig at me for nominating an AfD (without first doing some arbitrary standard of work that no one else had done in 14 years) and PearlSt82's nomination of this ANI (accusing me of some I-don't-know-what illicit motive behind my nomination for AfDs of articles) are both assuming bad faith and are casting aspersion on me. If you think that no editor can ever be pissed off, then I point you to your own anger which has carried over into this ANI. I am specifically referring to your post above about "vigger" versus "vegger". I'd never heard of "vigger" until your comment above, and "vegger" was pronounced akin to "veggie" which isn't anything close to "vigger". Let's get the facts straight for the audience, Milburn. I had responded with
"Vegger is merely a word I coined to save me from having to type "vegetarian, vegan and/or pescetarian"."
because we were discussing an AfD for the three articles List of vegetarians, List of vegans, and List of pescetarians and that was too much of a mouthful (or typing-ful). I never "compared" veggers to ordinary folks, either — that was your misinterpretation and you got pissed off, and regardless of how I tried to explain what I'd wrote you continued to push the button (as you did above) that somehow I "contrasted veggers to ordinary people". And perhaps you're contributing to this ANI because you're still pissed off about that, and that a week later I arrived in your wiki domain and opened some cans of worms (at Template:Discrimination) and some other editor has picked up that baton and is beating you in your own debates (at WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism) and you see that as a reason to pop one at me here. (BTW, I bowed out of those conversation because I couldn't keep up with the esoteric language and had no access to the sources being discussed, and that other editor was a master at all that and has been doing just fine without me.) Perhaps you should re-read WP:Casting aspersions which refers to accusing others "without reasonable cause". Normal Op (talk) 17:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Both Doomsdayer520's dig at me for nominating an AfD (without first doing some arbitrary standard of work that no one else had done in 14 years) and PearlSt82's nomination of this ANI (accusing me of some I-don't-know-what illicit motive behind my nomination for AfDs of articles) are both assuming bad faith and are casting aspersion on me. If you think that no editor can ever be pissed off, then I point you to your own anger which has carried over into this ANI. I am specifically referring to your post above about "vigger" versus "vegger". I'd never heard of "vigger" until your comment above, and "vegger" was pronounced akin to "veggie" which isn't anything close to "vigger". Let's get the facts straight for the audience, Milburn. I had responded with
- I agree. What I objected to was not that Normal Op was pissed off (or said so), but the aspersions made about the editor who pissed them off. It seems, from this thread and the previous topic ban, that this casting of aspersions was far from a one-off. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have been mentioned a few times here as someone who made Normal Op "pissed off". I don't have a dog in this hunt and simply advise that any interested party peruse the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animal Liberation (album). Compare my brief and rather bland comment to the vociferous fury that it unleashed in Normal Op, which has continued here and caused a lot of work for everyone. Good luck. ☆ DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK CONTRIBS) ☆ 20:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- If you want to "get the facts straight", let's clear up a few errors in your last post. I have not said that no editor can be pissed off; quite the opposite. And I do not know why you think I am angry. I am not. And I did not say that you compared "veggers" to "ordinary folk". I said that you contrasted "veggers" with "ordinary people", which you did, here -- there are "veggers", including those people who are "veggers" who "ordinary people" wouldn't believe didn't eat meat. You can accuse me of misinterpretation until you're blue in the face, but it's right there for all to see. I don't really have anything to say about your "beating you in your own debates" nonsense, but I think it's striking that the accusations of bad faith directed at anyone who disagrees with you is such second nature that I'm not even the first person you've targetted in this subsection. I've already said more than I want to; I do not want to be pulled into some pointless back and forth. I will not be posting here again. If anyone wants to talk to me, they are welcome to leave a message on my talk page. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Normal Op, if you weren't contrasting 'veggers' to 'ordinary people', you must acknowledge that the way you worded your points could have given that impression to a reasonable observer. When I first read "
If there were a few select people who were unbelievably veggers, such as current athletes (because ordinary people such as myself find it unbelievable that real athletes wouldn't eat meat...)
", that's exactly what I thought you were doing. I appreciate that being discussed at ANI must be stressful, but your tone here is exceedingly combative; a more conciliatory approach might be more effective if your aim is to convince people that you can collaborate effectively when you disagree with people. GirthSummit (blether) 18:02, 19 October 2020 (UTC)- Doesn't matter what I write or how I phrase it; there will always be someone who will take it the wrong way. The only perfect solution is not to write at all. [259]Normal Op (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Normal Op, in my experience, that is not the case. Almost all of the editors I've interacted with here have been amenable to polite, reasoned discourse, if you take the time to explain your view carefully, make genuine efforts to avoid personalising disputes, and take the AGF maxim seriously. I say again - your attitude is exceedingly combative, it is going to get peoples' backs up and make people not want to interact with you. Introspection isn't easy, but I'd really encourage you to read through your comments in this thread and consider whether you could have acted in a more conciliatory way. GirthSummit (blether) 18:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- And the majority of my interactions with other editors have been just fine, but I'm sure it's especially important to focus on the minority that haven't. Stress? Introspection? Sorry, but I'm scheduled for surgery tomorrow and introspection isn't going to happen this week. Signing off now and un-watchlisting this page. If anyone needs to reach me, they can try the email function. Normal Op (talk) 21:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Normal Op, in my experience, that is not the case. Almost all of the editors I've interacted with here have been amenable to polite, reasoned discourse, if you take the time to explain your view carefully, make genuine efforts to avoid personalising disputes, and take the AGF maxim seriously. I say again - your attitude is exceedingly combative, it is going to get peoples' backs up and make people not want to interact with you. Introspection isn't easy, but I'd really encourage you to read through your comments in this thread and consider whether you could have acted in a more conciliatory way. GirthSummit (blether) 18:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter what I write or how I phrase it; there will always be someone who will take it the wrong way. The only perfect solution is not to write at all. [259]Normal Op (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support indef t-ban - he has slid back into the same behavior that caused his t-ban a little over a year ago. He had a successful appeal July 6th, and within 2 months he was back at it, and received a warning from JzG on Sept 1st. A few weeks later, he received another warning by Nosebagbear. I think he is much too impassioned against bulldog types and a few of the larger breeds to edit collegially in that topic area. His responses in this discussion also speak to his WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Atsme 💬 📧 18:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support indef tban - despite warnings, the behaviour seems to have rapidly reoccurred. I'm willing to give the tban a chance before resorting to full on blocking. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support reinstating/expanding tban - WP:ROPE was given... Lev!vich 18:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support reinstating the t-ban. Normal Op clearly can't hold back here. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment was hoping Normal OP would take a break from this area. I realize the stress of being at ANI so I do not hold the frustrated comments against them. Hard for me to argue with the consensus. Lightburst (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Non-admin recommendation - no Tban but a block for one week. WP:TBAN is used to "forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive." Only one editor in this section has claimed that the edits made were disruptive, without elaborating how. Other editors have stated that good work has been performed at times. The issue is one of behaviour and not of disruption. WP:CIVILITY allows blocking in cases of major incivility, therefore in this case a block is more appropriate. The editor would be well-advised to spend this blocked time reviewing the Wikipedia policies on CIVILITY, DISPUTE RESOLUTION, and reference to RELIABLE SOURCES. Beyond this period, further incivility should result in a block for a longer period of time. William Harris (talk) 07:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support broadened TBan, to cover animals in general (including animal products such as meat). Normal Op's combative attitude in this thread, and at the discussions listed above, and their unwillingness to accept that their own approach may be responsible for the heat in these discussions, in spite of two warnings issued since their TBan was lifted in July, convince me that there is a problem that requires action. I've considered William Harris's suggestion of a short block, but don't see that having the desired effect, whereas last time a TBan was applied, it seems that Normal Op was able to moderate their approach sufficiently to convince people to lift it. I don't know whether issues around animal welfare, vegetarianism and so on raise particularly strong feelings in them, but the civility issues on display in those areas at the threads above do constitute disruption in my view, and justify a reinstatement and expansion of their original TBan; the fact that the issues have spread to discussions about other animal-related matters suggest that it should be broadened. I wish them a speedy recovery from their surgery, and hope that they return to editing in some of the other areas where they have apparently contributed constructively. GirthSummit (blether) 07:51, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support broad T-Ban per Girth. This editor appears incapable of having a reasonable disagreement with other editors on the topic of animals or vegetarianism/veganism. The fact they felt the need to coin a new term for them versus "ordinary people" is telling. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support broad T-Ban I have had private email exchanges with five other Wikipedia editors going back 4 months about NormalOp's aggressive editing on articles related to veganism or animal rights, some of these users are too scared to voice this in open space because of a potential future grudge against them from Normal OP but emails could be send to the foundation privately if need be. Many examples could be cited but this user has a history of bullying users who edit articles in relation to animal rights. You can get an example of this at the Regan Russell article. Normal Op submitted the article for deletion [260], the vote was keep and he was not happy about that so he reverted any edits to the article, this user definitely has a WP:OWN problem. Normal OP then went onto the talk-page writing screeds of text and making offensive comments such as Russell's death is not notable in and of itself, and probably happened in an incident just like this stupid stunt at Fearman's street corner. [261] Her stepson has since complained on the talk-page about Normal Ops aggressive editing [262]. I have seen many other incidents like this from this user, he cannot be trusted to edit articles in this field. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:43, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support T-Ban, the behavior here needs to stop.--Astral Leap (talk) 14:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I have only interacted with Normal Op on the AfD discussion page about the "List of dog attacks ..." page and on the related discussion on the noticeboard about the reliability of dogsbite.org. Abrasiveness is not the same as being a dick. ImTheIP (talk) 03:06, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Would it be possible for an uninvolved admin to close? It looks like discussion has run its course and consensus is near-unanimous. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support temporary sitewide ban. A non-involved editor here, but it seems clear that Normal Op is clearly not being civil. A new editor here, so my suggestion may seem inappropriate for the incident. This is my userpage[citation needed]and this is my talk page[citation needed] 15:33, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support T-ban Mr. Heart (talk) 06:32, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Request for closure - This thread was autoarchived but looks like it needs formal closure, so I've put a DNAU at the top in the meantime. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:06, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Inserting the word "notable" into a subject definition
| Per consensus, Eissink is sitebanned. No other actions taken. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:34, 2 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
——– The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) –——
I'm sorry to have to bring the following incident to attention here, but 3RR and the absence of other editors in the discussion leaves me no other choice.
Now that his request for deletion of the article Cheminformatics toolkits seems to be doomed to fail (4 keep votes, 1 delete vote), user The Banner first redlinked all the items on the list that is part of the article. Red links imply that the items are indeed notable, which is contrary to The Banner's reason for the deletion request, so he must have gotten new information in the mean time. (He later said that by redlinking he "was anticipating the keeping of the article and comply to the wishes
" of other editors.)
Three days later, and this is my main concern here, he added the word "notable" to the definition of cheminformatics toolkits. In the edit summary he used the tag Reverted[!]. Now the article starts "Cheminformatics toolkits are notable software development kits". Because I thought that adding "notable" to the definition was not helpful, and indeed only confusing, I reverted the edit, but The Banner would not and still does not comply, even after my explanation on the article's talk page and on the deletion request page.
I believe that the addition of the word "notable" to the definition is undesirable and unwanted. If we would keep it in this article, we could add "notable" to every single definition in Wikipedia articles. The Banner's defence, and in fact the discussion as a whole, is not lengthy, so I ask interested sysops to read his argument, which I find unintelligible, to say the least. I think a topic ban for deletion requests must be considered. Please prepare for The Banner's accusation that this is all just a personal attack. Thanks, Eissink (talk) 13:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC).
- The word "notable" is a selection criterion for the list to avoid spamming. The Banner talk 16:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- But I must say that I would appreciate a two-way interaction-ban. The Banner talk 23:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Eissink, I strongly suggest you retract your comments above. I'm inclined to block you for making personal attacks and generally casting aspersions, and I also can't make out exactly what your complaint is above. But instead of me going nuclear and blocking you now, since you're obviously frustrated, try to explain just what you think is problematic right now and don't carry nlwiki issues here; this is enwiki, not nlwiki. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed I've been frustrated, and I wouldn't have mentioned nlwiki or even have interfered with The Banner if he had not, two months ago, felt the need to start goading me, intimidating me in the very first contact exactly with a reference to nlwiki. The latter I have already mentioned on this board, in a post that I didn't start, but that didn't trigger any sysop to give The Banner a warning to not import problems, nor was he sanctioned for haunting me here. The practical problem today, which seems solved by an editor that at least shared my conclusion, is described above and I don't think I can make it more clear than I already have. My involvement in that deletion request was the last residue of our encounters from the last few months: I had already decided not to interfere with The Banner's movements anymore, but this particular discussion hadn't come to an end yet and I refused to flee from it. I expect that The Banner will take action to his word and ends interacting with me, immediately – since I had already planned to do so, that would mean there is now effectively an interaction stop, and as far as I'm concerned there is no need for someone else to impose it. The case is then closed, as far as I'm concerned. I understand that my words were strong and for the sake of resolution I have removed them. I hope this has cleared things up and I thank you for your reply and your understanding. Eissink (talk) 03:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- Two AfD's started by me with input from Eissink. I have no clue why he showed up there: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheminformatics toolkits, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sainik School, Manasbal. The Banner talk 13:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because you chose to show up in discussions only because I was there first, as I have explained already several times. Now please stop forcing me to react on you again and do as you said: avoid further interaction. Eissink (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- I prefer a two-way interaction ban. The Banner talk 17:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because you chose to show up in discussions only because I was there first, as I have explained already several times. Now please stop forcing me to react on you again and do as you said: avoid further interaction. Eissink (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- The behavior and bludgeoning at those two AFD conversations, in combination with similar behavior in this report, merits attention. Grandpallama (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- non-involved non-administrator comment A/K/A sticking my nose where it probably doesn't belong. Eissink's previous block was for personal attacks and harassment and 16 months ago they pledged "... I will certainly not get personal with any editor over any subject anymore" in the block appeal Huon accepted. Since then, I warned them about a personal attack this July and GizzyCatBella likewise warned them in August as did El C, which Barkeep49further emphasized. EEng also felt it necessary to make a non-templated note about Eissink modifying another user's comments. This is all in addition to the apparent animosity between this user and The Banner. I think that their unblocking pledge from last May and their record of personalizing conflicts since then needs to be taken into account in evaluating this request. WP:ROPE is probably also relevant. I regret the necessity of digging into this history and bringing up old events but their habit of blanking their user talk page may obscure some of what should be included in this discussion. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 20:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Please don't let this boomerang on me, please just give me a final warning now, Eggishorn and other moderators. I regret every single of my editorial behaviour that led to the warnings you mention, and it was not my intention to obscure those warnings (but it might have worked as obscuring for myself, I realize now). My relation with The Banner is complicated, since we have quite a history elsewhere, and it wasn't me who started stalking the other here. I fully accept a
permanent(this is to severe in these matters - changed 00:36 UTC 17 oct 20) block whenever some administrator in the future thinks I crossed a line again, and I will not hesitate then to inform them on the final warning, if I get one, but please give me the opportunity to continu workingon my draft and future articles(already published, just in case - changed 00:36 UTC 17 oct 20), and just give me a final warning now. Thank you, and I'm sorry for giving trouble. Eissink (talk) 20:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- Please don't let this boomerang on me, please just give me a final warning now, Eggishorn and other moderators. I regret every single of my editorial behaviour that led to the warnings you mention, and it was not my intention to obscure those warnings (but it might have worked as obscuring for myself, I realize now). My relation with The Banner is complicated, since we have quite a history elsewhere, and it wasn't me who started stalking the other here. I fully accept a
- non-involved non-administrator comment A/K/A sticking my nose where it probably doesn't belong. Eissink's previous block was for personal attacks and harassment and 16 months ago they pledged "... I will certainly not get personal with any editor over any subject anymore" in the block appeal Huon accepted. Since then, I warned them about a personal attack this July and GizzyCatBella likewise warned them in August as did El C, which Barkeep49further emphasized. EEng also felt it necessary to make a non-templated note about Eissink modifying another user's comments. This is all in addition to the apparent animosity between this user and The Banner. I think that their unblocking pledge from last May and their record of personalizing conflicts since then needs to be taken into account in evaluating this request. WP:ROPE is probably also relevant. I regret the necessity of digging into this history and bringing up old events but their habit of blanking their user talk page may obscure some of what should be included in this discussion. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 20:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Two AfD's started by me with input from Eissink. I have no clue why he showed up there: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheminformatics toolkits, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sainik School, Manasbal. The Banner talk 13:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed I've been frustrated, and I wouldn't have mentioned nlwiki or even have interfered with The Banner if he had not, two months ago, felt the need to start goading me, intimidating me in the very first contact exactly with a reference to nlwiki. The latter I have already mentioned on this board, in a post that I didn't start, but that didn't trigger any sysop to give The Banner a warning to not import problems, nor was he sanctioned for haunting me here. The practical problem today, which seems solved by an editor that at least shared my conclusion, is described above and I don't think I can make it more clear than I already have. My involvement in that deletion request was the last residue of our encounters from the last few months: I had already decided not to interfere with The Banner's movements anymore, but this particular discussion hadn't come to an end yet and I refused to flee from it. I expect that The Banner will take action to his word and ends interacting with me, immediately – since I had already planned to do so, that would mean there is now effectively an interaction stop, and as far as I'm concerned there is no need for someone else to impose it. The case is then closed, as far as I'm concerned. I understand that my words were strong and for the sake of resolution I have removed them. I hope this has cleared things up and I thank you for your reply and your understanding. Eissink (talk) 03:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
- Eissink, I strongly suggest you retract your comments above. I'm inclined to block you for making personal attacks and generally casting aspersions, and I also can't make out exactly what your complaint is above. But instead of me going nuclear and blocking you now, since you're obviously frustrated, try to explain just what you think is problematic right now and don't carry nlwiki issues here; this is enwiki, not nlwiki. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- But I must say that I would appreciate a two-way interaction-ban. The Banner talk 23:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. You sure cower and cringe when you think you're in imminent danger of an admin pressing the button, but the rest of the time it's stuff like Eggishorn linked above, and this [263], and this [264], and this [265]. For someone with 2K edits you spend a surprising amount of time calling other editors out and then diving for cover. From your draft you linked you obviously have a lot to offer in underserved topic areas, but you need to cool it on judging others and do more watching and listening. EEng 04:35, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Since I was mentioned here, I'll drop my two cents. If I were a decision-maker, I would issue a clear and definitive final warning and administer an interaction ban as the counter person (The Banner) favoured. I believe that Eissink will eventually learn from this; My opinion is based on my prior discussion with Eissink in the past after I felt uncomfortable with his comments towards me. Thanks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
On the suggested topic ban for deletion requests
Since we're still here, maybe I should add some words and try to explain why I wrote "I think a topic ban for deletion requests must be considered", hoping it might improve my answer to The Blade of the Northern Lights' question also. I will use three examples, being The Banner's last three deletion requests.
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheminformatics toolkits – This is the deletion request that lead me here. The request has failed, and I think I have shown that a sense of revenge edition might be detected in the subsequent redlinking and in what I find a bizar addition of the word "notable" to the subject's definition. Take a look at the reason for the request: "Advertising, a list of all most all non-notable toolkits (notable as defined as having its own article)". Isn't it a bit mind boggling that someone perceives a list of at least partly competitive products as advertising, not to mention about half of them are open source? And thereafter a personal definition of notability is introduced to serve as a second argument for deletion. What are we dealing with here?
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sainik School, Manasbal – Requester's argument here is less exuberant, indeed more of the usual kind: "Fails WP:GNG". This is of course convenient for everyone who likes deliberations that consist of yes-or-no votes, but it leaves little room for a more nuanced exchange of positions. After I had expanded the nominated version to what the article looks like today [the pictures where added later, we wouldn't have had them if the request had been succesful], based on a multitude of sources, all The Banner could say was "Yes, you have indeed added more trivia. It still fails the notability guidelines." Where do I find such an editor's interest in what constitutes a contemporary encyclopedia?
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xenomania production discography – This is a new request, still active. The reason given for deletion is: "Spam". I only want to mention here what preceded the request, I will not weigh in on the content of the article too much, especially since I don't feel like interacting with The Banner anymore, but I can say that I do value publishing overviews. Yesterday, an editor expanded the article by singling out "International singles and certifications" in a new paragraph. Today, The Banner wouldn't have it: "Revert spamming". The other editor shows up again and reverts the revert, saying it isn't spam. Not a dialogue follows, not on the article's Talk page nor on editor's Talk page, but The Banner decides to want the entire article removed now. I think the question arises whether he would have granted the article a further life when his revert had not been reversed. In any case, I believe the removal of such content requires more explanation than basically the suspicion that one of it's contributors is a spammer.
I repeat some of my questions: What are we dealing with here? Where do I find such an editor's interest in what constitutes a contemporary encyclopedia? What are his motives? You won't get an answer from The Banner, he will never give you more than a sneer or the accusation of a personal attack, never. And you won't see his personal interests reflected in his substantive contributions to articles either, because there virtually are none, except for a series of three line articles [or should I say: "trivia"?] on Michelin star chefs a long time ago. His only interest seems to be to create by destroying, which would be fine if there was a reasonable cause for such destructions, but there isn't, not counting accidental hits or perhaps those cases were other people just don't have the time, the means or the opportunity to stop him.
There is, in my opinion, a very troubling pattern in The Banner's editing, most notably in his deletion requests. It is hard to determine exactly why certain articles fall prey to him: the reasoning is poor, and there seems to be hardly any interest into the subjects and there is never an attempt to fix anything. Is it all just a play: sink the teeth into an article [or an editor?] and just don't give up and show no remorse till the verdict has passed?
Considerations like these made me suggest a ban on deletion requests for The Banner, and I believe it is warranted. Eissink (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- Dude. This is not helping you. There is nothing in the wall of text that is actionable against The Banner but you've given any passing admin more than enough evidence that you have absolutely no intention whatsoever of living up to your previous promises. Less than 24 hours ago you were claiming you regretted personalizing conflicts and your next post here is a massive personalization of a conflict? And this after acknowledging you deserved a final warning and possibly banning without discussion? What seems proportionate or reasonable about this response? A boomerang is definitely in order. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 02:16, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced by anyone who claims my sincerely drawn argument is a "wall of text". I don't share any of your conclusions. Eissink (talk) 02:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- My advice to
cool it on judging others and do more watching and listening
didn't penetrate, I guess. EEng 05:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)- It was pretty entertaining the read the "I surrender! Please, be merciful! I promise I'll never--hey, wait a minute, you're not an officer! Give me back my sword! I surrender nothing! You will be vanquished!!" Lev!vich 05:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- From experience, I can assure it is not pleasant to be blocked for unsolid reason and it does leave some sort of trauma, an effect of which is what you have witnessed. And I agree, it looked pretty silly. But I ask everyone to read what I have just said about a troubling form of vandalism – there is no doubt in my mind that I am not wrong here, I know what I am talking about. I am not coming from nowhere. Eissink (talk) 13:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- It was pretty entertaining the read the "I surrender! Please, be merciful! I promise I'll never--hey, wait a minute, you're not an officer! Give me back my sword! I surrender nothing! You will be vanquished!!" Lev!vich 05:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- My advice to
- I'm not convinced by anyone who claims my sincerely drawn argument is a "wall of text". I don't share any of your conclusions. Eissink (talk) 02:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- I tend to call this harassing and creating of an unsafe working environment. And evidence that he is following me around. The Banner talk 10:54, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Time consuming vandals are not entitled to a safe working environment on Wikipedia. Eissink (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- Wow. Time for a boomerang. Eissink's time on enwiki has been marked by personal attacks and weird harassment of other users (the discussion linked to by EEng is pretty telling), despite the numerous warnings on his talkpage, and the behavior in this thread makes it clear that he's not particularly interested in adjusting to our norms. It's worth keeping in mind that Eissink's previous block for personal attacks was an indef, and it got so bad that TPA and e-mail were revoked; he had to be unblocked through a UTRS ticket. All of which means that he's been given plenty of rope and is fully aware that this behavior is unacceptable to the community. I support a reinstatement of the indefinite block. Grandpallama (talk) 14:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I hope there are administrators who are able to grasp my case. I know quite well what the community does and does not accept, and I also know that progress hurts, not only on a personal level but also on community level. Anyone who dismisses the case I brought up here, is not doing Wikipedia a favor. Unfortunately, so far not a single editor reflected on the content of what I have said in relation to the deletion requests, that is: to the editing behavior of The Banner that got us here – at least try to refute what is on the table, instead of only asking for my head. Eissink (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- I love the way you are creative with the truth. You deny me a safe working environment, while claiming one for yourself. You are screaming for my head, but others are not allowed to judge your actions. And you won't see his personal interests reflected in his substantive contributions to articles either, because there virtually are none, except for a series of three line articles [or should I say: "trivia"?] on Michelin star chefs a long time ago., what is a bit at odds with the 380 articles I have created and 86,615 edits I made (as of today). A lot of those edits spent on plain dull maintenance (fixing links to disambiguation pages). True, I have not created many article recently here. My last real article was Martin Talty, slightly longer then 3 lines and also not completely a Michelin chef but an acclaimed musician. You are constantly referring to our past on the Dutch Wikipedia, but I am not responsible for your indef block there. That had something to do with your behaviour there and some privacy breaches. And so on. The Banner talk 15:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I am not asking for your head, I am strongly proposing a ban on deletion requests. And you should stop falsely claiming that I was blocked for privacy breaches: it is not true, as anyone in their right mind can easily verify. And I'm not claiming anything for myself, and I am not "constantly referring to our past" either, nor was I the one who brought it up, as is also easily verifiable. You are making things up, which is a major part of your problematic conduct, as the examples above show. Eissink (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- We should not be importing disputes from another wiki into enwiki, but upon checking, Eissink was indeffed on nlwiki for violating privacy (it looks like outing, or outing-adjacent behavior) and for using unacceptable language against other editors. While the nlwiki Arbcom did not necessarily endorse any particular finding about privacy in this case, it was because they found it unnecessary to make a distinction between an actual privacy violation vs. behavior that feels so much like a privacy violation that it affects another editor; they declined Eissink's block appeal on those grounds. Given this specific history, Eissink's already ugly comment that another editor isn't
entitled to a safe working environment on Wikipedia
is even more egregious. Grandpallama (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- We should not be importing disputes from another wiki into enwiki, but upon checking, Eissink was indeffed on nlwiki for violating privacy (it looks like outing, or outing-adjacent behavior) and for using unacceptable language against other editors. While the nlwiki Arbcom did not necessarily endorse any particular finding about privacy in this case, it was because they found it unnecessary to make a distinction between an actual privacy violation vs. behavior that feels so much like a privacy violation that it affects another editor; they declined Eissink's block appeal on those grounds. Given this specific history, Eissink's already ugly comment that another editor isn't
- I am not asking for your head, I am strongly proposing a ban on deletion requests. And you should stop falsely claiming that I was blocked for privacy breaches: it is not true, as anyone in their right mind can easily verify. And I'm not claiming anything for myself, and I am not "constantly referring to our past" either, nor was I the one who brought it up, as is also easily verifiable. You are making things up, which is a major part of your problematic conduct, as the examples above show. Eissink (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- I love the way you are creative with the truth. You deny me a safe working environment, while claiming one for yourself. You are screaming for my head, but others are not allowed to judge your actions. And you won't see his personal interests reflected in his substantive contributions to articles either, because there virtually are none, except for a series of three line articles [or should I say: "trivia"?] on Michelin star chefs a long time ago., what is a bit at odds with the 380 articles I have created and 86,615 edits I made (as of today). A lot of those edits spent on plain dull maintenance (fixing links to disambiguation pages). True, I have not created many article recently here. My last real article was Martin Talty, slightly longer then 3 lines and also not completely a Michelin chef but an acclaimed musician. You are constantly referring to our past on the Dutch Wikipedia, but I am not responsible for your indef block there. That had something to do with your behaviour there and some privacy breaches. And so on. The Banner talk 15:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
I know quite well what the community does and does not accept
, says an editor who has been indef'd on multiple projects. It is so rare for Grandpallama and I to agree on a matter of editor conduct, I think this is only the second time in as many years, but I agree with him here. I guess we can thank Eissink for increasing unity among the editor corps. Lev!vich 16:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)- My pleasure. Now let's wait for an administrator to seriously evaluate my proposal, and please stick together also when the outcome surprises you. Eissink (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- I meant it when I said earlier that you have a lot to offer, so please think how you will comport yourself when the outcome of this thread surprises you, so that even the possibility of your ever editing again can remain open. As it is you'd already pretty much worn out the community's patience, and in the present situation. which you brought here, every single participant finds you 100% in the wrong. You've got to face that your idea of what constitutes appropriate behavior is completely backwards, and find a way to fix that pronto. WP:MENTORSHIP may be one option. EEng 17:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's quite conciliatory and generous of you. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. Grandpallama (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Don't be too impressed. I was pretty sure he'd blow himself up with his suicide vest so I'd get all the Gunga Din credit without the headache of having to actually deal with him in the future, and my crystal ball did not fail me [266]. But it really is a shame, because he indeed has a lot to offer; about that I wasn't kidding. EEng 20:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's quite conciliatory and generous of you. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. Grandpallama (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I meant it when I said earlier that you have a lot to offer, so please think how you will comport yourself when the outcome of this thread surprises you, so that even the possibility of your ever editing again can remain open. As it is you'd already pretty much worn out the community's patience, and in the present situation. which you brought here, every single participant finds you 100% in the wrong. You've got to face that your idea of what constitutes appropriate behavior is completely backwards, and find a way to fix that pronto. WP:MENTORSHIP may be one option. EEng 17:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- My pleasure. Now let's wait for an administrator to seriously evaluate my proposal, and please stick together also when the outcome surprises you. Eissink (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- I hope there are administrators who are able to grasp my case. I know quite well what the community does and does not accept, and I also know that progress hurts, not only on a personal level but also on community level. Anyone who dismisses the case I brought up here, is not doing Wikipedia a favor. Unfortunately, so far not a single editor reflected on the content of what I have said in relation to the deletion requests, that is: to the editing behavior of The Banner that got us here – at least try to refute what is on the table, instead of only asking for my head. Eissink (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- Wow. Time for a boomerang. Eissink's time on enwiki has been marked by personal attacks and weird harassment of other users (the discussion linked to by EEng is pretty telling), despite the numerous warnings on his talkpage, and the behavior in this thread makes it clear that he's not particularly interested in adjusting to our norms. It's worth keeping in mind that Eissink's previous block for personal attacks was an indef, and it got so bad that TPA and e-mail were revoked; he had to be unblocked through a UTRS ticket. All of which means that he's been given plenty of rope and is fully aware that this behavior is unacceptable to the community. I support a reinstatement of the indefinite block. Grandpallama (talk) 14:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Time consuming vandals are not entitled to a safe working environment on Wikipedia. Eissink (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
Request for Boomerang site ban
It is now crystal clear that Eissink has taken a flying leap over the bar of WP:NOTHERE and is enthusiastically setting out for the outer rim territories of time-wasting tendentious editing. Their complaints that started this thread have little, if any merit. The AfD at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cheminformatics_toolkits shows Eissink violated WP:NPA and continued those in both the AfD at hand and here. The addition of the other two AfD's shows nothing more than terseness in nominations on The Banner's part and the attempts above to raise them into evidence of incompetence is itself a PA. It is also a good demonstration of Eissink's tendency to both make mountains out of molehills and personalize every interaction. The Diffs linked above by both EEng (link) and myself (link) provide support for their lack of cooperative editing behavior and their resorting to PA's. Their further disruptive editing in this very thread, going from demands of action against another editor to pledges to reform and back to the same demands again, shows that their promises to reform are not meaningful. This clearly falls within the standards of WP:RECIDIVISM Their earlier indefinite site ban should be reinstated and lifting it should be contingent upon a much more convincing pledge to abide by community norms and refrain from personalizing disputes. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Re-blocked. Good god, I'll never get back the time I spent slogging through the above. What a life. It's obvious that Eissink has not lived up to the promises that were the basis for their unblock in May 2019, where they for instance said "I will certainly not get personal with any editor over any subject anymore. It's hard to express how the current block impacted me: it made me look at my way of interacting with people. I feel I have learned my lesson, and that's why I could issue the recent UTRS appeal."[267] The unblocking admin, Huon, warned them at the time: "Should the previous behaviour recur, you'll quickly find yourself blocked again, and getting unblocked again would be far more difficult". Yup. I have indeffed again, based on Eissink's personalising of disputes, as can be seen in this very ANI discussion as well as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sainik School, Manasbal and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheminformatics toolkits, which Eissink, according to his own statement above, took part in purely in revenge against The Banner. Bishonentålk 17:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC).
- Thank you. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 17:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- +1 Grandpallama (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Bish, you beat me to the punch. This was a timesink of the highest kind, and we don't need an editor like this here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- +1 Grandpallama (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 17:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support siteban. Thanks to Bish for stopping the immediate disruption. This is now Eissink's second indef on enwiki, plus they're indef'd on nlwiki; seems to meet the criteria for a site ban, and if disruption occurs again on some other project, a cban here will probably make a global lock easier. Lev!vich 17:51, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed (but of course I always agree with Bish). Is this still necessary? Indef-blocked with TPA revoked is essentially site-banned, is it not? Does a formal site ban serve any distinction at this point other than officially making him persona non grata? Joefromrandb (talk) 04:22, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Joefromrandb:, in the short term, no, there is no practical difference. That said, if Eissink can convince one administrator they've turned over a(nother) new leaf, that administrator can lift the block with no further rigamarole (although they would probably consult with Bishonen). If a community ban were enacted then they would need to appeal to the community in general and hope they gained a consensus for reinstatement. That is a far harder bar to clear. My own opinion is that the latter is unnecessary at this point but others may feel differently. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 16:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- As I'm the only hard-ass voting for a site ban :-D don't anyone let my vote stand in the way of closing this. It surely isn't worth spending more time on. Lev!vich 16:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry for keeping this from riding slowly off into the sunset, but I'm afraid I too am for driving a stake through the heart here. Immediately after being blocked for personal attacks, his response was to lash out at another editor as
a self satisfying, vandalistic asshole
[268]. We've seen this pattern from him over and over and over. It's the way he is. He's harassed and abused people at multiple projects, and meta. No moresecondthirdfourthchances. Done. EEng 17:21, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry for keeping this from riding slowly off into the sunset, but I'm afraid I too am for driving a stake through the heart here. Immediately after being blocked for personal attacks, his response was to lash out at another editor as
- As I'm the only hard-ass voting for a site ban :-D don't anyone let my vote stand in the way of closing this. It surely isn't worth spending more time on. Lev!vich 16:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Joefromrandb:, in the short term, no, there is no practical difference. That said, if Eissink can convince one administrator they've turned over a(nother) new leaf, that administrator can lift the block with no further rigamarole (although they would probably consult with Bishonen). If a community ban were enacted then they would need to appeal to the community in general and hope they gained a consensus for reinstatement. That is a far harder bar to clear. My own opinion is that the latter is unnecessary at this point but others may feel differently. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 16:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Support siteban though this editor is now blocked with TPA revoked, I think a siteban is still appropriate. The personal attack they made on their talk page after being blocked and the modification of another users comment as a "joke", when it modified the meaning of said sentence to imply the said user thinks their writing is unintelligible, on top of the other issues / personal attacks they have made, pushes me to support a site ban. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 17:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support siteban Eissink managed to get out of an indef block once before, so let's make it official this time. This comment, which is clueless on multiple levels, was enough to send me over the edge. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:26, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'd missed that, actually, and it's worth reproducing here explicitly:
- An editor:
I tend to call this harassing and creating of an unsafe working environment. And evidence that he is following me around.
- Eissink:
Time consuming vandals are not entitled to a safe working environment on Wikipedia.
- An editor:
- EEng 23:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's even worse when you consider that Eissink was, as best I can gather, previously blocked for privacy violations on the Dutch Wikipedia. Not sure if The Banner was their target in that case or not. If so, we may be in global ban territory. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, would it be asking too much to ask if you could make inquiries? EEng 06:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- EEng, I don't know if I have "channels" still, or if I ever had them. I usually do the lazy thing and ask Trijnstel, who has their finger on every Dutch pulse. If, of course, Trijnstel isn't out celebrating right now, properly distanced, because Kelderman just picked up the pink jersey... Drmies (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Well if that finger is in a dike please don't have them remove it. We don't want to be responsible for any national catastrophes. EEng 15:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC) That's d-i-k-e. No tasteless jokes, please.
- @Drmies and EEng: Someone needs me?
Trijnsteltalk 14:18, 23 October 2020 (UTC) - Yes, genie. Can you tell us the background to Eissink's block/ban at nlwp? EEng 15:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- Genie? GENIE???EEng 02:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- @EEng: Apologies. I was busy. But the reason was a string of personal attacks. The Dutch Arbcom decided a year ago not to lift the block. Trijnsteltalk 20:58, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Personal attacks? Plural??? NO! You amaze me! EEng 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @EEng: Apologies. I was busy. But the reason was a string of personal attacks. The Dutch Arbcom decided a year ago not to lift the block. Trijnsteltalk 20:58, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Genie? GENIE???EEng 02:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, genie. Can you tell us the background to Eissink's block/ban at nlwp? EEng 15:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- EEng, I don't know if I have "channels" still, or if I ever had them. I usually do the lazy thing and ask Trijnstel, who has their finger on every Dutch pulse. If, of course, Trijnstel isn't out celebrating right now, properly distanced, because Kelderman just picked up the pink jersey... Drmies (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, would it be asking too much to ask if you could make inquiries? EEng 06:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's even worse when you consider that Eissink was, as best I can gather, previously blocked for privacy violations on the Dutch Wikipedia. Not sure if The Banner was their target in that case or not. If so, we may be in global ban territory. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'd missed that, actually, and it's worth reproducing here explicitly:
- Support siteban Nope. That comment shows this isn't someone we want editing here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:44, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support siteban Just in case it wasn't clear. EEng 23:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC) [Adding 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC): It has now been learned that Eissink was indef blocked on nlwp for "a string of personal attacks" – see indented post just a little bit above here.]
- Support siteban to prevent another admin from unilaterally overturning the block, as unlikely as that may be. P-K3 (talk) 23:17, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support siteban This user had their second chance and blew it spectacularly. Going out with a parting insult just proves they are WP:NOTHERE and should not be a part of this community. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support siteban I'll have to roll with the fellows above. ~ HAL333([269]) 02:48, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose:
1/ He has been goaded by The banner several times, as I could witness myself on articles I wrote.
2/ He has contributed a lot, with interesting articles created, and has a lot to contribute, as noted by several contributors, and as opposed to "contributors" who only delete.
3/ Above all, would the community risk using different yardsticks when, on the one hand banning Eissink, and on the other hand let The Banner (who is the other party involved in this dispute) go free, without any sanction? whereas The Banner has, on top of his goading actions which have pushed Eissink beyond his limits, a long history of being blocked himself?
- See The Banner's block log here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=block&user=&page=The+Banner&wpdate=&tagfilter=&subtype=--
- The Banner has been blocked 12 times (!), among other grounds for: "Personal attacks or harassment", "Disruptive editing: continued battleground mentality; frivolous ANI thread)", "Disruptive editing: battleground mentality, edit-warring, absolute refusal to engage in discussion)",...
Emigré55 (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would note that:
- The Banner has not been blocked since 2015 (nearly 5 years ago).
- They haven't been blocked 12 times. They have been blocked 9 times. The number of times someone has been blocked doesn't necessarily correspond to fault.
- Just because we are discussing the ban of one editor doesn't mean we need to sanction the other editor.
- Regardless of if someone has contributed constructively doesn't mean we should ignore their personal attacks against multiple editors.
- If you believe that The Banner needs to be sanctioned, propose it here. Partly opposing a ban because there isn't a discussion to sanction the other editor seems counterproductive to me. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 16:32, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- I am also interested about the goading by The Banner. Can you provide some diffs which show this? Dreamy Jazztalk to me my contributions 16:48, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Dreamy Jazz: to answer your last question about the diffs on the goading by The Banner :
- Eissink provided very precise examples on how he was chased by The Banner.
- He described the process of this hunt by the Banner in this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=982999994#Wielding_the_Salmoninae?
- And precisely in his contribution to this thread here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=982974533
- In the links he gave, he provided The Banner's first goading edit (who chose to interact with Eissink, not the contrary, while he knew they had a difficult past together), in a discussion The Banner was not part of, where he tried to publicly stigmatise Eissink in a reference to "elsewhere" (being Dutch Wikipedia) — https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=974491790&diffmode=source
- His very next edit after that, was on Anna van Egmond, so it quite clear that he followed Eissink’s edits and once again thought it wise to interfere with Eissink’s editing — https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anna_van_Egmont&diff=974495041&oldid=974438938&diffmode=source
- These are the two main diffs. As Eissink stressed out, it was The Banner following him around that started the unfortunate and lengthy deliberations on Van Egmond and Pourbus.
- The edits don't lie: The Banner was chasing Eissink, not the contrary. Basically, revenge from the past, something that he should never have done: he undeniably provoked the conflict that followed.
- --Emigré55 (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- Uh huh. Now outline the provocation that forced Eissink to refer to another editor as a
self satisfying, vandalistic asshole
[270]. EEng 01:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)- Summary of the votes so far. Lev!vich 01:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @ EEng : I agree that these words are not acceptable. And I think Eissink acknowledged it.
- However, my point is not to discuss here his bad words, or that he got carried away, beyond limits, and the fact that he was blocked for that.
- My point here is to discuss the fact that in so doing the community would be using different yardsticks: if, on the one hand , the community is banning Eissink, and on the other hand leaves The Banner (who is the other party involved in this dispute) go free, without any sanction.
- Whereas there is a huge discrepancy between the number or times when Eissink was blocked (one time in 2019) and when The Banner was blocked (9 times, as Dreamy Jazz rightly pointed out here above, and 1 times indef.!, among other grounds for: "Personal attacks or harassment", "Disruptive editing: continued battleground mentality; frivolous ANI thread", "Disruptive editing: battleground mentality, edit-warring, absolute refusal to engage in discussion",...), and for actions which now repeat ("what's bred in the bone will come out in the flesh") , and not only with Eissink.
- The community, in that very case, would have been abused in its judgment. And in my opinion, clearly manipulated by The Banner playing the victim, whereas he was, and is, the hunter who provoked all this.
- In my opinion, it would be very unfair to leave The Banner continue as if nothing had happened. A clear permit then given to him to continue his negative only actions, which others suffer too.
- @ Drmies,Pawnkingthree,RickinBaltimore,Grandpallama,HandThatFeeds,Dreamy Jazz,Levivich,HAL333Lepricavark,Joefromrandb,Eggishorn,Bishonen,Huon,Joefromrandb : I appeal to the fairness of the community in that case, so that there is no “premium given” to persistent hunters, such as The Banner, who deserves in my opinion an indef block this time, if not a ban as he has successfully overturned a previous indef block in the past.--Emigré55 (talk) 09:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting, as you are fishing for block information here. And that seems to be response on you sources being shot down as unreliable on the Reliable sources noticeboard. Something you still seems to reject. In fact, you are also creating an unsafe working environment. The Banner talk 10:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've followed your links. They lead to wall of text after wall of text. You keep saying The Banner did something, but darned if I can tell what it is. If it's hounding or goading, a laconic -- LACONIC -- list of diffs is all that would be needed. EEng 12:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Pinging the lot of us was not exactly helpful. If you have a distinct proposal against The Banner, make a new subsection and put your evidence forward. Right now, though, what you've put forward is not going to result in any action against Banner. If that's all you've got, I suggest you drop the matter. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. @Emigré55:, I said above that I did not feel that Eissink deserved any more of the community's time and I meant it. I am highly annoyed that you've dragged this out by mouth-piecing their accusations against The Banner. There was never any evidence provided by Eissink that The Banner was hounding them and your repeated insistence that there was is equally a personal attack. After reading through these jeremiads twice, I can only say that both Eissink's and your reasons for harassing The Banner remain opaque to me and that I should never have wasted the time trying to understand them. You have presented no grounds for action against the Banner other than some warped version of "fairness" but if you continue to pursue this line of attack you will certainly be presenting grounds for action against yourself. I really, really strongly advise dropping the bludgeoning instrument and backing away from the nag's cadaver. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 16:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Emigré55, attacking Banner is not doing your cause, of that of Eissink, any good. Drmies (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- jer·e·mi·ad / jerəˈmīəd / noun / plural noun: jeremiads / a long, mournful complaint or lamentation; a list of woes / "the jeremiads of puritan preachers warning of moral decay" RandomGnome (talk) 05:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. @Emigré55:, I said above that I did not feel that Eissink deserved any more of the community's time and I meant it. I am highly annoyed that you've dragged this out by mouth-piecing their accusations against The Banner. There was never any evidence provided by Eissink that The Banner was hounding them and your repeated insistence that there was is equally a personal attack. After reading through these jeremiads twice, I can only say that both Eissink's and your reasons for harassing The Banner remain opaque to me and that I should never have wasted the time trying to understand them. You have presented no grounds for action against the Banner other than some warped version of "fairness" but if you continue to pursue this line of attack you will certainly be presenting grounds for action against yourself. I really, really strongly advise dropping the bludgeoning instrument and backing away from the nag's cadaver. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 16:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Summary of the votes so far. Lev!vich 01:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Uh huh. Now outline the provocation that forced Eissink to refer to another editor as a
- @Dreamy Jazz: to answer your last question about the diffs on the goading by The Banner :
- I would note that:
Bumping thread. Dreamy Jazz talk to me my contributions 22:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
IP making PAs and polemicist statements
2A02:A442:581E:1:8477:BE02:9A28:C9DF (talk · contribs) has made this comment about me [[271]], their response has been less then sterling concluding with this [[272]], after being asked to stop the PA's.Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked 72 hours for disruption. Sadly I had to see if WP:BOFA existed. It doesn't. Let's just say it's related to "ligma". RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I hope this will show then that no they cannot "clearly can insult and belittle other users", but I doubt it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:15, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- And I was not wrong, clearly a troll.Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Saw that on their talk page. More than likely the IP will switch and it won't be an issue in a bit. If it's in a range we can adjust to a range block if needed. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- And might be socking as a new IP has fetched up on their talk page to argue the same point.Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just a friendly recommendation, I'd disengage with them right now on their talk page. If they start on an article talk page, let me know. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- OK.Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just a friendly recommendation, I'd disengage with them right now on their talk page. If they start on an article talk page, let me know. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Vienna Terrorist Attack
Editor: TompaDompa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TompaDompa) Alias?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:WWGB
First describes the only (initial) WP:RS which shows an actual video recording of the attack as "fairly useless." And removes it more than 10 times.
I question him/her on why they are in favor of concealing WP:RS sources which show the (verified) terrorist attack. Surely this editor can't be on the side of terrorists? Why would you remove (the only WP:RS) video evidence of a terrorist attack so many times? (you never know).
He/She states that the NYTimes article is better because it "describes" the contents of the video rather than "showing" the video:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986805141 (Video of attackers executing citizens on the street)
I respond with:
"Your opinion is clear cut. Thank you so much.":
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986805141
They then edited their own comment to: "Of course nobody here wants to protect the attackers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986805256
I would not have replied to their revision of theirs as I did to their original so I too edited my response to.
"Then act like it": https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986806258
Editor TompaDompa/WWGB then keeps changing the text of my own response back to "Your opinion is clear cut. Thank you so much.":
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986806832
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986808900
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2020_Vienna_attacks&oldid=986817246
I do not consider issues like this lightly. I have been fighting for 3 hours on Wikipedia to be able to show evidence to the world what these murderers did in Vienna only for it to be repeatedly taken down. Actions such as these may contravene international criminal statutes for willful subversion and endangerment of the local population. Gold333 (talk) 05:15, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- There appear to be a few things here. First is a completely evidence-less accusation of sockpuppetry which I don't feel any need to consider. Second, Gold33 appears to be claiming to be the same editor as IP 85.148.213.144, as they are upset they can't freely revise the IP editor's comments. Third, I have no idea what was removed "10 times"; it would be edit-warring if it did happen, but I don't see it. Gold333 needs to calm down, or risk a WP:BOOMERANG; making clumsy reverts such as [273] that remove unrelated comments is not encouraged. power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) (Non-administrator comment) I'm fairly certain that TompaDompa and WWGB are separate editors. It seems that WWGB was upset when Gold333 removed both their and Ҥ's responses as a product of a manual revert (which isn't okay per WP:TPOC) and had nothing to do with the disagreement between Gold333 and TompaDompa. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am editor 85.148.213.144. If I removed any edits by WWGB and accused them it was inadvertently. I had been editing for hours. I disagree with the fact that I have to spend hours fighting to have a WP:RS video linked in an article that shows a terrorist attack, only for the video to be repeatedly taken down. And for the other editor to put words in my mouth that what they did was seemingly "the right thing". No sir. Gold333 (talk) 05:29, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- We only have your say-so that you're the IP, but if it's true then from now on only edit logged in, not as the IP. Stop accusing other editors of sockpuppetry, stop accusing them of protecting terrorists, stop making veiled legal threats that make you look bombastically stupid (
Actions such as these may contravene international criminal statutes for willful subversion and endangerment of the local population
) and stop huffing about instead of listening to other editors trying to educate you about why we have the rules we have. If you don't feel your time is being spent usefully here, maybe you should spend it somewhere else. Yes sir. EEng 05:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- We only have your say-so that you're the IP, but if it's true then from now on only edit logged in, not as the IP. Stop accusing other editors of sockpuppetry, stop accusing them of protecting terrorists, stop making veiled legal threats that make you look bombastically stupid (
I'm glad I disagree with you. Gold333 (talk) 05:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Gold333: Please read WP:LOUTSOCK. Thank you. Firestar464 (talk) 05:58, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Gold333/85.248.213.144 seems to have mistaken Abductive's comment (diff) for one of mine, since they believe I edited my own comment when I said
Of course nobody here wants to protect the attackers.
(diff). I didn't edit a comment I had already made, I made a completely new comment (I got edit conflicts with both Abductive and 85.148.213.144 when I did, hence the placement of my comment and the(edit conflict)x2
note). I reverted Gold333 editing a comment made by 85.248.213.144 twice per WP:TPOC (diff 1, diff 2), not knowing they were the same person. Really, this seems to be a simple misunderstanding and the escalation to WP:ANI completely unnecessary. TompaDompa (talk) 05:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've never seen a Wikipedia article include a video containing violence or a terrorist attack. Unverified video footage is not used in articles and there are typically copyright issues. Maybe you could submit it to the Commons and they might accept it. It's not appropriate to include in an article. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. This is also not an matter of "urgency" that needs to be decided tonight and I'm not sure why you brought it to ANI. Slow down. Liz Read! Talk! 05:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Liz: The video was embedded in a WP:RS news article covering the event. It was not a standalone video link.
TompaDompa: Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for not being logged in and causing confusion. I'm also glad that even though we had a moment, you and I both refrained from resorting to petty insults unlike user: EEng above.
Have a nice day. Gold333 (talk) 06:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I use petty insults, you open time-wasting ANI threads and threaten people with "international criminal statutes". We each have our weapons of choice, EEng 06:15, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer grand insults. Lev!vich 06:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I prefer to "disarm you with a smile"' --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gold333, EEng, please calm down. Levivich, please don't feed the fire. Thank you.Firestar464 (talk) 07:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Gold333: RE: " I have been fighting for 3 hours on Wikipedia to be able to show evidence to the world". Fighting? Wikipedia is not a battleground. It is not a place to "show evidence to the world". It is not a venue to right great wrongs. Please stop fighting and calmly discuss this content on the article talk page. Thanks, --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- It also reads like a sort of legal threat.Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- OP seems (understandably) het up. Perhaps a short WP:partial block to allow them time from this subject? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- At the very least.Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'd say wait. They haven't edited for several hours. Blocking is meant to be preventive, not punitive. We'll see how they act if/when they start editing again, but there's no need to block them ahead of time. TompaDompa (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think the OP should also be actually apologising for the accusation made against WWGB. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- At the very least.Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- OP seems (understandably) het up. Perhaps a short WP:partial block to allow them time from this subject? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- It also reads like a sort of legal threat.Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Gold333: RE: " I have been fighting for 3 hours on Wikipedia to be able to show evidence to the world". Fighting? Wikipedia is not a battleground. It is not a place to "show evidence to the world". It is not a venue to right great wrongs. Please stop fighting and calmly discuss this content on the article talk page. Thanks, --Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer grand insults. Lev!vich 06:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
1RR, consensus, and WP:SQS
Re this discussion, it appears objection to my reinsertion of material is being subject to WP:SQS. What is required of me to avoid 1RR sanction re reinserting the slightly modified version I proposed at the end of that discussion? Humanengr (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Since that page is under WP:ARBAPDS restrictions, namely,
Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This includes making edits similar to the ones that have been challenged. If in doubt, don't make the edit.
- It will take a clear consensus being established on the talk page. You may need to wait for other people to weigh in. It's hard to imagine that a thread less than 7 hours old is "stonewalling". ST47 (talk) 14:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I see WP:SQS indicates
Reverts of good faith edits without adequate explanation should not be tolerated, and the most effective way to accomplish this is by reverting such reverts as soon as possible.
My edit was made in good faith; as I see it, neither the reversion edit summary nor subsequent explanations in response to my disproof of their assertions approaches an adequate explanation. WP:SQS seems pretty strong here with itsshould not be tolerated
and doesn’t include a time allowance. Humanengr (talk) 16:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)- That's irrelevant when a consensus required sanction already applies - you need "consensus" for any change from the status quo, your edit was disputed so now it needs consensus, simple as that. --qedk (t 愛 c) 16:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I see WP:CSP says
For pages or editors currently under sanctions with the "consensus required provision", this restriction comes into effect when someone makes a policy-based revert of an edit which modifies content which is longstanding or has explicit consensus.
My edit did not 'modify content'; it added content. Humanengr (talk) 17:02, 3 November 2020 (UTC) - I would further note that the section being linked to explicitly says "
Since it's currently not accepted behavior on WP and likely to be seen as edit warring, it's probably best to advocate for it for now where appropriate, rather than actually revert such reverts.
" and is titled "Advocate for the reverting of unexplained reverts
". So even in the general case, the supplement itself says you probably shouldn't actually be reverting yourself. I'm not interested in checking out or participating in that discussion, but if this sort of selective quotation and wikilawyering was also shown in that discussion, I'm not surprised if the other participants have been a bit short and reluctant to bother with detailed explanations. In other words, while I don't think any sanction is justified here, this thread is an almost boomerang in my book. Nil Einne (talk) 23:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I see WP:CSP says
- That's irrelevant when a consensus required sanction already applies - you need "consensus" for any change from the status quo, your edit was disputed so now it needs consensus, simple as that. --qedk (t 愛 c) 16:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- I see WP:SQS indicates
Severe WP:CIR issues
| BLOCKED | |
| Blocked for one week. (non-admin closure) Mr. Heart (talk) 00:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Denketchler (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)
This user's edit history consists almost entirely of consistently uploading copyrighted images without filling in the required fields ([274], [275], [276]), changing/adding copyrighted images to articles that don't need it ([277], [278], [279], [280]), complete lack of edit summaries, bizarre blanking of redirects ([281]), edits like this, and more. Overall, they are doing way more harm than good and most of their edits have been reverted by someone else. Darkknight2149 11:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for 1 week. ‑Scottywong [spout] 05:52, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Persistent vandalism at Koottukar (2010 film)
| SEMI-PROTECTED | |
| Page semiprotected for three weeks. (non-admin closure) Mr. Heart (talk) 00:19, 4 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sorry, but I'm dropping this here, too. The vandalism is relenetless, and there's been no response at the page protection noticeboard for the better part of a day. Someone please lock this. Thanks, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- (nac) "Fixed typo" is remarkably often a misleading ES; and in my experience always is when it's -56 or suchlike. Narky Blert (talk) 18:42, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
User persistently creating hoax articles
| BLOCKED | |
| user in question blocked for WP:NOTHERE. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:38, 4 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Thatdollcalledriley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has persistently been participating in a pattern of creating articles related to a musical artist that does not exist. The reason that the user provides for these creations, as stated in an edit summary, is that these articles are related to a fanfiction character named "Shabnam" who is "NOT REAL, JUST FANON." Here are some links to supposed songs created by this "Shabnam" character that were instantly flagged under A9 and/or G3: 1, 2, 3, and 4. In addition, the user has performed many disruptive edits related to categories. I see this as a textbook case of WP:CIR. EMachine03 (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Likely a sockpuppet of Ineedtostopforgetting reverting all my edits and reporting me to AIV, harassing me in the username
Hello, this account: GreenlawnNewYorker (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki) has reverted all my edits and harassing me. It's probably because I made this edit to their LTA casepage. Their username is where my IP Geolocates to. 173.56.224.210 (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Note: IP is definitely connected to 72.80.58.47(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 100.37.166.70(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), IPs that were previously blocked for block evasion for Jijkljklasdfsadf, another sockpuppet itself. They also used another IP, 174.197.149.126(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), to spout personal attacks against NinjaRobotPirate and other users. All IPs lead back to Greenlawn, New York City. GreenlawnNewYorker (talk) 13:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Repeated removal of speedy delete, vandalism and sockpuppetry by Hasib201937
| reported user CU blocked, SPI updated, and article 30/500 protected. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi, everyone. Please any one have a look at Sheikh Inzamamuzzaman, a WP:PROMOTIONAL page that is eligible for WP:A7 with {{salt}}, where Hasib201937 is endlessly removing speedy delete notices and engaging in edit warring and a sock-puppet of Faisal.proyash. Any help is appreciated. Thank you. ~ Amkgp 💬 20:59, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Loud quacks on that page.--Chuka Chieftalk 21:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Chuka Chief, Sheikh Inzamamuzzaman needs to be {{salt}} otherwise again the drama will start with a different account. ~ Amkgp💬 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector why declined? ~ Amkgp💬 21:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- The article clearly makes a credible claim of significance. I'm definitely going to delete it anyway but there's a history merge necessary. Working on it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, Please also have a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Faisal.proyash. Thank you ~ Amkgp💬 21:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is another sockpuppet investigation related to user Faisal.proyash: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tanni3523. NJD-DE (talk) 21:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Several accounts blocked, SPI updated. I have merged the copied article back into the draft, declined G11 deletion because "created for hire" is not a speedy criterion and the draft is not unambiguous advertising, restored the UPE and AFC notices that the socks removed, salted the article and move-protected the draft. If you still feel that the draft should be deleted please nominate it at MfD. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:47, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, Please also have a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Faisal.proyash. Thank you ~ Amkgp💬 21:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- The article clearly makes a credible claim of significance. I'm definitely going to delete it anyway but there's a history merge necessary. Working on it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector why declined? ~ Amkgp💬 21:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Chuka Chief, Sheikh Inzamamuzzaman needs to be {{salt}} otherwise again the drama will start with a different account. ~ Amkgp💬 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Miggy72
| (non-admin closure) User blocked indefinitely by Yamla. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Miggy72 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Miggy72 is showing a pattern of disruptive editing:
- Creation of articles without references: Imperial Point, Fort Lauderdale and Cypress Creek, Florida
- Moving Imperial Point, Fort Lauderdale back to mainspace (either by moving[282] or copy and paste[283] ) multiple times after draftification without adding citations.
- When discussed with Miggy72, they indicated they would add references but made no effort to do so
- Engaging in an edit war with Nathan2055 over {{History merge}} [284], [285], [286]
--John B123 (talk) 23:24, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @John B123: Miggy72 has engaged with me on my talk page. The messages are...concerning, and seem to indicate an intention to continue move warring. They've again stated they intend to find sources for their articles, but haven't explained why they can't be kept in draftspace until they add them. They've also boasted that I can't find all of their drafts because they keep moving them (I...can, that's why we have contribs pages) and that they've created some 150 articles without any references (not true, they've written only 2-5 articles at most depending on whether you count unfinished drafts as an article, but the fact that they're bragging about that raises some serious concerns). And on top of all of that, all of the images they've uploaded to Commons for use in these article are blatant copyright violations. I'm willing to give Miggy one last chance to try and contribute constructively, but if they continue this behavior after these warnings, then a block for disruptive editing would be more than justified. Nathan2055talk - contribs 23:53, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
You know I'm reading this Miggytalk
- @Miggy72:: yesss, that was kind of the point of the notification on your talk page, so you would read -- and could respond -- here. --Calton Talk 14:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- And curiously, doing the same moving of a draft of Cypress Creek, Florida to mainspace here immediately after the article had been draftified. Velella Velella Talk 20:27, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- This user does have some history of disruptive editing in the past (see talk page), including creating inappropriate pages in mainspace instead of userspace or draftspace. ~Destroyeraa🌀 00:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Given the history of creating inappropriate mainspace articles, I have a thought that Miggy72 should be limited into creating articles in draftspace or userspace only, OR revoking their ability to create articles (due to lack of effort to even give citations to these drafts). However, I could endorse blocking Miggy72 for disruptive editing because of what they just said to Nathan2055 (which appears to be refusing to stop). SMB99thxmy edits 01:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Miggy72 has now for the second time moved Cypress Creek, Florida in the middle of a deletion discussion, but this time from mainspace to Draft:Cypress Creek,Florida, via User:Cypress Creek, Florida. Could an admin please move it back, and protect the article? Admins should also consider a temporary block for disruption: editor clearly understands that this behaviour is disruptive. Thanks. Captain Calm (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- And now blanking [287] and moving the AFD for the Cypress Creek article to user space [288]. Clearly begging to be blocked. Captain Calm (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- And now a threat of violence at the AFD: [289] Ah, Florida. Captain Calm (talk) 14:27, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- And now blanking [287] and moving the AFD for the Cypress Creek article to user space [288]. Clearly begging to be blocked. Captain Calm (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Miggy72 has now for the second time moved Cypress Creek, Florida in the middle of a deletion discussion, but this time from mainspace to Draft:Cypress Creek,Florida, via User:Cypress Creek, Florida. Could an admin please move it back, and protect the article? Admins should also consider a temporary block for disruption: editor clearly understands that this behaviour is disruptive. Thanks. Captain Calm (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Given the history of creating inappropriate mainspace articles, I have a thought that Miggy72 should be limited into creating articles in draftspace or userspace only, OR revoking their ability to create articles (due to lack of effort to even give citations to these drafts). However, I could endorse blocking Miggy72 for disruptive editing because of what they just said to Nathan2055 (which appears to be refusing to stop). SMB99thxmy edits 01:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- This user does have some history of disruptive editing in the past (see talk page), including creating inappropriate pages in mainspace instead of userspace or draftspace. ~Destroyeraa🌀 00:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- And curiously, doing the same moving of a draft of Cypress Creek, Florida to mainspace here immediately after the article had been draftified. Velella Velella Talk 20:27, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive edits by User:MR73
| User simply didn't know how to access article talk spaces. No issue. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 19:06, 4 November 2020 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user MR73 is involved in disrupting and edit-warring at Lana Del Rey discography. The user has been asked to stop and discuss on the talk page of the article, yet he/she continued to revert claiming that he/she doesn't see a discussion page.--Harout72 (talk) 16:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Could someone explain to me how can i see the discussion page that you're talking about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MR73 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is the page that you will need to discuss on. It's on the main page, you would choose the tab marked "Talk". RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- And here's a visual aid just in case. 78.28.55.139 (talk) 17:08, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Ownership behavior at Silver Legion of America
From time to time I review and edit popular culture examples according to loose criteria like: "is the example from popular culture?" and "does it involve the underlying subject?" Lately most of these have gone without incident, but at Silver Legion of America I encountered two editors who have repeatedly reverted a change without explanation and demanded that I discuss the change while avoiding discussion themselves.
- Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs): reverted, reverted, reverted multiple changes with a warning, commented on the talk page to threaten and not to address concerns, reverted (removing dispute tag and urging to "discuss"), reverted (removing dispute tag), reverted (restoring disputed content and more besides), contacted me telling me to "make my argument" but still did not return to the article talk page. BMK has in the past been put on notice that verifiable existence does not guarantee inclusion of pop culture examples even when they do involve the underlying subject.
- Vif12vf (talk · contribs): reverted, I contacted him to request explanation whereupon he reverted (removing dispute tag). I contacted him again, he reverted the contact with "stay off my talk-page. Discuss edits at the relevant talk-pages!" (I had already tried, but he hasn't.) I contacted him once more, he reverted the contact with "You don't get to re-add this." (I hadn't re-added anyting.) I then received an administrator warning for "pestering." Although Vif12vf has been less active in the article dispute, BMK has cited the original unexplained revert as consensus in his own favor, so Vif12vf's refusal to explain at all has significantly complicated the dispute.
Both editors should be admonished against ownership and stonewalling conduct, i.e. repeatedly reverting without explanation, circumventing discussion and communication, and suppressing content concerns. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 00:27, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is a simple matter. There is a dispute over whether a piece of material should be in the article or not. 73.71 deleted it, Vif12vf} restored it, the IP deleted it again (with no discussion), I deleted it again and a discussion was started on the talk page. There is not consensus on the talk page to delete the material from the article, yet the IP continues to attempt to delete it, despite having to consensus to do so. That's it. Further discussion on the talk page is required before anything can be decided, but the IP has apparently decided that their judgment should prevail whether or not there is a consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, the IP saying "From time to time I review popular culture examples" is not really an accurate statement, since edits to popcult sections make up a very large part of their contributions, and those edits are almost always deletions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, the IP was just warned by Bishonen for "pestering" Vif12vf on their talk page, by restoring comments that had been deleted, multiple times. [290]. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how the IP spins 13 edits over a 4 1/2 year period into "Ownership". [291] Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, the IP was just warned by Bishonen for "pestering" Vif12vf on their talk page, by restoring comments that had been deleted, multiple times. [290]. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, the IP saying "From time to time I review popular culture examples" is not really an accurate statement, since edits to popcult sections make up a very large part of their contributions, and those edits are almost always deletions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Discussion isn't a one-way street Ken, and indeed WP:VNOTSUFF places an onus on parties who want material included. As for "restoring comments," I did that exactly once, because I believed that the indentation had misled Vif12vf to think that I was addressing you rather than him. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 00:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- One only has to look at the talk page to see that you made no argument for your deletion at all, you simply wanted others to make their argument without providing one yourself. Per Vif12vf's talk page, you did it multiple times: [292] (oring), [293] (1), [294] (2), [295] (3))
- Yes, let people look at the talk page to see whether I had presented any argument. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 00:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- One only has to look at the talk page to see that you made no argument for your deletion at all, you simply wanted others to make their argument without providing one yourself. Per Vif12vf's talk page, you did it multiple times: [292] (oring), [293] (1), [294] (2), [295] (3))
- Discussion isn't a one-way street Ken, and indeed WP:VNOTSUFF places an onus on parties who want material included. As for "restoring comments," I did that exactly once, because I believed that the indentation had misled Vif12vf to think that I was addressing you rather than him. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 00:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Kind of along the lines of this dispute I am not very impressed by Vif12vf's lack of engagement with this issue or much of anywhere it would seem. Nothing on talk, edit summaries, or user talk just reverts. Looking at their contribution history it looks like they have a history of inappropriate use of rollback as well.[296][297][298][299] PackMecEng (talk) 00:47, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
IP address spamming non English comments on talk page
| BLOCKED | |
| Blocked by User:OhNoitsJamie. (non-admin closure) Heart (talk) 03:22, 5 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An IP user is spamming non English comments on some talk pages. They also used personal attacks on me in this edit 2601:5C4:8100:92D:F0FA:50DE:87C3:F0EA (talk) 23:39, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- WP:LTA/SBT, fyi. I don't think #redirecting the sandbox to Fart is helping though, tbh. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Block evasion
Hello, this is my first time diving into reporting a block evasion case, I have suspicions that User:StacyDebb and User:OglebayWheeling are the same person attempting to sock-puppet and evade their block. Little evidence can be made except the message StacyDebb's page left by OglebayWheeling and them both editing 1912 (Only 8 contributions have been made by OglebayWheeling). If there is a process for block evasion, please let me know! Happy editing Heart (talk) 12:44, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- HeartGlow30797, given that StaceyDebb (talk · contribs) is CU-blocked as a sockpuppet of Pcgmsrich (talk · contribs) and there is an active SPI case, I'd say SPI is probably the best venue. Best, Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 13:01, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Mohammad Yaromtaghloo
The article Mohammad yaromtaghloo has been previously created by Al6ireza (talk · contribs) and A7 speedily deleted twice, as it's promotional in nature and doesn't establish notability. It was recreated earlier today at Mohammad Yaromtaghloo by the same editor. I requested A7 again, but this was removed by 'another' editor, Al6ireza 2 (talk · contribs) with a declared COI in the subject. I realise that the two editors are technically not the same (possible sockpuppetry etc. notwithstanding), but I've nevertheless reinstated the speedy request on the basis that the second editor may be the same as the creator, in which case they shouldn't be removing speedies from their own articles. I'm unsure whether I was right to restore the request, and in any case don't know what to do with this next, so leaving the matter here for those in the know to deal with. Cheers, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've deleted the article and salted it. It's blatantly a hoax, apparently he got a street performance permit aged 10, and won a Turkish talent show 2 years before it first aired. I think the accounts should be cleaned, likely a sock or meatpuppet of some sort. Canterbury Tail talk 15:24, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Competence issues and canvassing on Patricia Billings
Netherzone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is making steady use of execrable sources -listicle glurge, essentially - on this article, and now appears to be canvassing. Some outside eyeballs would be appreciated. Qwirkle (talk) 00:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Nope. I've not been canvassed. I was already involved during the AfD and in post-AfD editing of the article. It's still on my watchlist. I'm working on the article and so is Netherzone. --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 00:21, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- This looks like an article content dispute.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:47, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- A content dispute between two people who agree on one of their talk pages. Kewl.
The interested reader may want to observe their contributions on the article talk page Qwirkle (talk) 01:14, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Qwirkle: Do you have some kind of complaint to make, with diffs? See the top of this page, where it says "This page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems". That does not seem to be the case.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 01:24, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- We are permitted not only to talk but to agree on our user talk pages. That happening on mine is not problematic. --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 01:28, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Two editors amicably discussing article content on a talk page? That's outrageous. Blackmane (talk) 04:11, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- A content dispute between two people who agree on one of their talk pages. Kewl.
Jonathan f1 disruptive editing
- White Americans (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Jonathan f1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User, who has a history of receiving disruptive editing warnings and other warnings in their talk page, deleted with an edit comment “unsupported statement” a sentence about demography cited to a 1991 article in the journal Demography, a 1986 article in Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science (which explicitly supports the statement with an entire section "Inconsistencies") and two other sources, and deleted with an edit comment “total nonsense” content cited to a 2000 article in Yale Law Journal by a law professor about U.S. naturalization cases, with a subsequent claim in the talk page that the latter was 'scholars' operating in the tradition of "whiteness studies"
. This would seem to add to an overall pattern of WP:DISRUPTive editing. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ ℡ 17:58, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- First of all I don't have a "history of disruptive editing". This happened on one other occasion (probably a year ago) which involved me deleting a talk page section (not content in an article) which I started. I was simply unaware of a certain policy regarding talk page deletions. After I was explained the rules it never happened again.
- Secondly, I explained all of my edits on the talk page. They were all simple deletions of content that was either not explicitly supported by the sources or supported by dated sources that have very little credibility in contemporary, mainstream scholarship.
- Let's take each issue at a time.
- First cite the specific passages in the references you're using to support this statement as it appears in the article:
- "However, the English and British Americans' demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply "Americans" (7%), due to the length of time they have inhabited the United States, particularly if their family arrived prior to the American Revolution."
- Where does it say this? The first reference is page 57 of Dominic Pulera's Sharing the American Dream. Perhaps you haven't read past page 57. That wouldn't surprise me. On page 58 Pulera writes,
- "The number of American Americans surged dramatically between 1990 and 2000, suggesting that white Americans, particularly members of such groups as German Americans, Irish Americans, and English Americans, increasingly identify solely as American."
- This is significant because both hyphenated Irish and German Americans outnumber hyphenated English Americans on recent censuses and ancestry surveys. You simply cherry-picked English/British Americans out of the source without paying attention to the context in which Pulera was writing. That is, Pulera started the discussion on English/British Americans (as the one of the oldest ancestry groups in the US) as a premise for his conclusion that "white Americans" (specifically English, German, Irish Americans) are under-counted on these surveys (not only English Americans).
- Lieberson doesn't lend any explicit support for this statement either. And, as I mentioned on the talk, the majority of your sources are more than 20, 30 years old. Several censuses and surveys were conducted since the 80s, so you need to update your sources. The most recent source you're using is Pulera, and he doesn't support the content.
- As far as this "whiteness" business goes -- you are simply unfamiliar with the literature regarding the academic debates that have taken place since the 90s. "Whiteness studies" was popular in the Academy 20 or 30 years ago, not just in history but also in sociology and even legal scholarship. Around the turn of the century, several prominent social historians such as Barbara J. Fields called a moratorium on historians' use of "whiteness" as an analytical tool in Euro-American ethnic studies, and historians have since abandoned this approach. So again you're using out of date sources (from the early 90s) to support controversial (and, I would say, pseudo-historical) content.
- And finally I don't appreciate you sending me multiple hysterical messages and accusing me of disruptive editing. I made 3 edits, opened up talk page discussions on all three, and did not edit war, vandalize, or anything else that would constitute a disruption. Obviously, you are emotionally involved in this subject. I would suggest other editors get involved here and wrangle this bull before he pulverizes the whole china shop.Jonathan f1 (talk) 23:00, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Having reviewed this editor's small number of mainspace edits, it is clear that the majority are tendentious. In a spirit of WP:AGF, and given their relative inexperience, I have enacted a partial block from mainspace, so that they can explore the changes they want to make through the consensus process on Talk. Jonathan f1, this is mainly designed to protect our articles from well-intentioned but poor edits; I have no doubt that with a little patience you'll get the hang of it and the partial block can be lifted. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:05, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Those violations were the result of an unfamiliarity with the rules, as I just explained. However, the edits I made to the article in question were completely warranted, as I also explained.Jonathan f1 (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, I think that is a bit much given the edits in question. I can see why the edits would be reversed but based on the evidence above a block from editing any name space article indefinitely looks punitive rather than preventative. Additionally, I don't see anything to help the editor understand what they did wrong and how to do better in the future. The edits in question here were reverted with no edit warring and a trip to the talk page. Anyway, this seems like a case for constructive criticism accompanied by perhaps an informal warning. Springee (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Springee: No I didn't edit war. I made a couple of deletions, opened talk page sections to discuss the issues, and then OP went into a craze.
- Yes, explain to me what I did wrong because from my perspective I merely deleted material that wasn't adequately sourced. He is now claiming that the first statement in question is "explicitly supported with an entire section" in one of the references. Perhaps he can quote some of that because I apparently missed it.
- In addition, he's citing a source from 1986 to support a statement regarding the opinion of contemporary demographers. The most recent reference he has supporting this statement doesn't actually support the statement.
- As far as the Yale Law Review goes -- a law professor is not a social historian. We wouldn't expect a law professor to know how to do social history any more than we'd expect a social historian to know how to be a lawyer. Historians stopped using "race" as an analytical tool in white ethnic studies shortly after this lawyer published his paper. So again we have a case where this editor is using out of date material, only this time he's supporting a rather controversial statement.Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- In addition to mentioning tendentious editing, our Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guideline has a subsection WP:NOTGETTINGIT, which says among other things
Instead of, for example, at all acknowledging that there's no rational way to construe a sentence about the varying status of different European nationalities in early America, cited to the Yale Law Journal, as “total nonsense”, you continue to make what appear to me to be completely specious arguments justifying your edit; having responded to the first editor who challenged you on the talk page by saying they wereSometimes, even when editors act in good faith, their contributions may continue to be disruptive and time-wasting, for example, by continuing to say they don't understand what the problem is. Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed.
Trawling through research in a controversial field such as "whiteness studies"
(Or possibly you were talking about a past editor of the article? It's hard to tell, even now, looking at it.) and characterizing my refusal to accept said arguments as “hysterical” and a “craze”. That's an extreme obstacle to be operating with, to be unable to tell the difference between “total nonsense” and a topical sentence cited to a law journal or discuss the issue without expressing bilious generalized contempt for a fellow editor who does not think it's nonsense. I'd actually be worried that expecting such an issue to be resolved in a only a years' worth of infrequent collaborative talk-page edit requests would not be long enough, but I've seen in the past that Guy has more experience than I in witnessing clemency lead to a turn-around in editing behavior. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ ℡ 13:29, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- In addition to mentioning tendentious editing, our Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guideline has a subsection WP:NOTGETTINGIT, which says among other things
- As far as the Yale Law Review goes -- a law professor is not a social historian. We wouldn't expect a law professor to know how to do social history any more than we'd expect a social historian to know how to be a lawyer. Historians stopped using "race" as an analytical tool in white ethnic studies shortly after this lawyer published his paper. So again we have a case where this editor is using out of date material, only this time he's supporting a rather controversial statement.Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
User:*ss continued deletion of Korean military coordinates
User:*ss is deleting coordinates of South Korean military sites, claiming national security e.g. [[300]], warnings given here: User talk:*ss#Stop deleting coordinates Mztourist (talk) 10:07, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- For e.g. Command Post Tango, what was the source for the coordinates? If they aren't freely available, we probably shouldn't provide them either. Fram (talk) 10:52, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
This looks like WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Having made a complaint at AIV where the edits were declared to be "not vandalism". The same complaint is now brought here hoping to get the desired result. 86.140.67.152 (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Not forum shopping IP user. I regard it as vandalism, it was decided it wasn't, so I came here as I see no reason for deletion of these coordinates, certainly not on the grounds claimed by *ss of South Korean national security concerns. Mztourist (talk) 06:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Off tangent slightly, but I've fixed many a co-ordinate for park or playing field that was off by hundreds of metres before with Google Maps - which I assume has the same data as Google Earth - and always matches other sources, such ad OpenMap, etc. I've never seen any co-ordinates referenced to something. Are you suggesting User:Fram that we should start deleting all the co-ordinates in Wikipedia that are unreferenced? I've never seen controversy - or even a counter-edit, before. I don't see Google Earth/Maps listed as unreliable somewhere - perhaps I'm not looking in the right place? Nfitz (talk) 19:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- "Are you suggesting User:Fram that we should start deleting all the co-ordinates in Wikipedia that are unreferenced?" No, just like I don't claim that all information in general which is unsourced should be deleted. But when information is challenged by an editor, it should be reliably sourced. If there is a reliable source for this information, then it can stay. Fram (talk) 08:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Off tangent slightly, but I've fixed many a co-ordinate for park or playing field that was off by hundreds of metres before with Google Maps - which I assume has the same data as Google Earth - and always matches other sources, such ad OpenMap, etc. I've never seen any co-ordinates referenced to something. Are you suggesting User:Fram that we should start deleting all the co-ordinates in Wikipedia that are unreferenced? I've never seen controversy - or even a counter-edit, before. I don't see Google Earth/Maps listed as unreliable somewhere - perhaps I'm not looking in the right place? Nfitz (talk) 19:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- (non admin comment) I can only think of one experience. An editor pointed out to me that the coordinates I'd taken when translating from Dutch WP were wrong, by a couple of hundred metres (and the other side of a canal). They were right - dank u wel.
- If clicking on a coords link doesn't land you on a map at or very near the right place, what use is it? Narky Blert (talk) 22:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- (further non admin comment) Google Maps etc. can be seriously dodgy as to saying where borders are, in some parts of the world - the answer you get may depend on where you claim to be from. Nevertheless, as an innocent, I do not know of any case where they have fiddled the coordinates of a named place. Narky Blert (talk)
- Borders perhaps ... it's normally pretty clear between North and South Korea! Looking at an diff of one of these changes, User:*ss deleted the co-ordinates of the Busan naval base because it's "not published". Yet you can clearly see lots of large naval vessels in Google Maps here. This example though seems just a content dispute ... changed, and then changed back. And I don't see a lot of edits. What User:Mztourist can't be dealt with on the Talk page? The only one I see recently is Command Post Tango ... and it's 3 edits - one in August, one in October, and one in November? Nfitz (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Nfitz the issue is that *ss is persistently deleting the coordinates despite the Talk Page warning on the basis of their view that coordinates shouldn't be given to comply with South Korean national security laws. Would you prefer that we edit war in the expectation that someone will trip 3RR? Mztourist (talk) 06:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but "the issue is that *ss is persistently deleting the coordinates despite the Talk Page warning" is not an ANI issue at all, it's a content dispute. There is no reason for them to follow your "warning" any more than the reverse would be true if they had warned you. Ask for a 3rd opinion, go to the reliable sources noticeboard, if necessary start an RfC: but don't treat it like anything but a content dispute. Fram (talk) 08:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Nfitz the issue is that *ss is persistently deleting the coordinates despite the Talk Page warning on the basis of their view that coordinates shouldn't be given to comply with South Korean national security laws. Would you prefer that we edit war in the expectation that someone will trip 3RR? Mztourist (talk) 06:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Borders perhaps ... it's normally pretty clear between North and South Korea! Looking at an diff of one of these changes, User:*ss deleted the co-ordinates of the Busan naval base because it's "not published". Yet you can clearly see lots of large naval vessels in Google Maps here. This example though seems just a content dispute ... changed, and then changed back. And I don't see a lot of edits. What User:Mztourist can't be dealt with on the Talk page? The only one I see recently is Command Post Tango ... and it's 3 edits - one in August, one in October, and one in November? Nfitz (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- (further non admin comment) Google Maps etc. can be seriously dodgy as to saying where borders are, in some parts of the world - the answer you get may depend on where you claim to be from. Nevertheless, as an innocent, I do not know of any case where they have fiddled the coordinates of a named place. Narky Blert (talk)
The location information of military bases is where civilians are not allowed to enter, so it is not accurate if you go to check it yourself with permission. Because what is displayed on Google Maps(or Earth) may not be the correct information. In Wikipedia, it is not a policy or obligation to indicate the detailed location or coordinates of a military base, and it is sufficient to indicate the approximate location. That doesn't mean that erase all coordinates. And the display of such sensitive information can be a target of spies or North Korean Army. South Korea is very sensitive militarily because of North Korea. *ss (talk) 16:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is clearly a content dispute. That being said, I highly doubt that North Korean spies are using Wikipedia to get information on military targets that are publically and freely available. If you think they don't know the exact location of every single military installation on the peninsula, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. But at the end of the day we only publish what can be reliably sourced. Canterbury Tailtalk 16:48, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- As is clear from *ss's comments above "the display of such sensitive information can be a target of spies or North Korean Army" and my original complaint, this is not a content dispute or a WP:V issue. *ss is deleting valid information based on his/her perception of the applicability of South Korean security laws to Wikipedia. What is the position on this? Mztourist (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think *ss's reason for deletion is wrong, and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's not a valid reason for removal. However the removal itself is technically correct, for different reasons, namely the lack of a reliable source for those co-ordinates. Canterbury Tail talk 13:46, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- As is clear from *ss's comments above "the display of such sensitive information can be a target of spies or North Korean Army" and my original complaint, this is not a content dispute or a WP:V issue. *ss is deleting valid information based on his/her perception of the applicability of South Korean security laws to Wikipedia. What is the position on this? Mztourist (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Persistent sourcing issues with Weareme234
Weareme234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Weareme234 is a good-faith new contributor focused on Indian geographical articles. However, they have severe issues regarding sourcing of their contributions. Despite multiple warnings and draft-ifications of unsourced articles, they continue creating new articles without proper sourcing; Cooperative Colony only having a Google Maps link to a bank in the area, and Sector 12 (Bokaro) having an article about an airport that doesn't support the claim that the airport is in that sector. I don't know how to engage the editor further, a block until they acknowledge the sourcing issues may be necessary. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed - they are still continuing to make large, unsourced, additions, despite a final warning - a report to WP:AIV was ignored - Arjayay (talk) 18:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Stephen Yagman
Stephen Yagman article has been the subject of relentless hagiographic re-editing and abusive endless circular reverts over a long period of time. Either Yagman or one or more of his groupies or admirers has/have been relentless in their sanitization and encomia. Article editing should be limited to established users. I reverted back to last edit by User:Donner60 and tweaked. I tagged notices to the most recent IP addresses which have been active in the above misbehavior but I cannot tag them all. 2604:2000:1540:54F9:1C45:EF18:1232:E22E (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- I rewrote the lead a bit to be a little less hagiographic, but that aside, looking at the article history, it does seem that the article could benefit from some page protection. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 21:14, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is an infrequently edited article and I don't think protection would have much effect. Prior to your edits today, the article had only been edited 9 times in 2020. Protection is more suitable if there was vandalism occurring or an edit war or if it was being actively edited. I think if you and others add it to your Watchlist, you could keep tabs on it. 21:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Noted, and will do. I just generally think page protection is an effective remedy for short-term disruption, and should be applied more often than it is, I suppose. Honestly, while the subject is notable, there's very little biographical material to expand the article, so it's difficult to say what should be included in the biography. I even questioned my re-write, as I don't think the last sentence(s) was/were particularly due. Also, there's something up with your signature. It seems to be missing, aside from the time/date stamp. Just FYI. I'm not really sure who I'm replying to. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is an infrequently edited article and I don't think protection would have much effect. Prior to your edits today, the article had only been edited 9 times in 2020. Protection is more suitable if there was vandalism occurring or an edit war or if it was being actively edited. I think if you and others add it to your Watchlist, you could keep tabs on it. 21:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Alex.nezz
| BLOCKED | |
| Alex.nezz indefinitely blocked by Oshwah for disruptive editing. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 07:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Alex.nezz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user was brought to my attention via an edit-war happening on Caracalla. Initially, I was going to request intervention at AN/EW but having looked through the user's edits, the problem is wider than just the one article. The problem with this user's conduct can be illustrated in one sentence: It is either the arab wanting to bring their dirty arabizing program here or racist ignorant people
. They've also been engaging in edit-warring at History of Algeria, in what appears to me to be blatant POV pushing. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know what's gone wrong, but my notice to Alex.nezz has not shown up on their talk page. It's there in the source code, but not on their page. Any help appreciated. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:20, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- They removed everything from their talk page. Them and their friends think we can't view edit history. One of them claimed to write an edit including sources that was removed and is now "scared" to edit but we could see they never edited the page in the first place. This user in question is editing like no one can see the history of any page. It's alarming. They come from a group on facebook that encourages this sort of thing and they also have an alarming misunderstanding of what wikipedia is and how it works. They are currently petitioning to send a representative to Jimmy Wales in order to push their views. I'm going on a tangent but the point is this person doesn't understand what wikipedia is and doesn't want to learn. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 04:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Literally all of Alex.nezz's edits are attempts to remove Arabs from the history of North Africa = NOT HERE. Also malicious attempts to vandalize ANI itself. My own warnings also did not display. GPinkerton (talk) 04:22, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Impersonation
| Reported user indef blockeck by Floque. —usernamekiran (talk) 10:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Ph awesome has insulted a nationality and impersonated another user's signature in a dispute [301] - Bri.public (talk) 20:33, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- The remark itself is uncivil, but insulting a nationality is more in bad taste than an intrinsically blockable offense. However, the impersonation of another user is unacceptable, and the user should be sanctioned based on that alone, as it's definitely disruptive behaviour. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 21:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've posted a warning to their talk page. It was offensive and you're right, it is unacceptable to misrepresent yourself on a talk page. Liz Read! Talk! 21:17, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Liz, while you were commenting, I was blocking, didn't mean to step on your toes. I cannot imagine this person becoming a productive editor, but if they do, it's going to be the result of a convincing unblock request. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- No problem, Floquenbeam, Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- RE:" insulting a nationality". I disagree. RAcist comments of that nature are intolerable Surprised and saddened that that sat, unchallenged, for four days. Revdel'd. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Deepfriedokra: I didn't mean to say that it wasn't serious and couldn't be sanctionable, or deserving of a rev'del. I was just saying it's not usually something that calls for a block on sight. The user's generally disruptiveness, and impersonating another user, is. Their childish bashing of a nationality is more straw on that proverbial camel's back. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- And absolutely endorse indefinite block. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Door. Ass. Don't let it hit them on the way out. Absolutely no place for that here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- RE:" insulting a nationality". I disagree. RAcist comments of that nature are intolerable Surprised and saddened that that sat, unchallenged, for four days. Revdel'd. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Sutton12
| CLOSED | |
| With some reluctance I have blocked Sutton12 for a month, after he again removed improvement tags from the article on Sutton-in-Ashfield. On the surface, it appears that he doesn't have the basic skills required to learn how to edit in Wikipedia. On his return, he'll be expected to follow the guidelines or he'll be permanently blocked. Deb (talk) 09:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Sutton12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I came across Sutton12 at the Sutton-in-Ashfield article and saw he was making problematic edits. He has made 350+ edits to the article, but dozens of them were among the 149 deleted by User:Justlettersandnumbers as RD1:Violations of copyright policy.
Some of his uploads to Commons, (related to Sutton-in-Ashfield) have been challenged at Commons Deletion Requests, and in one recent glaring case he changed the file name of an image being considered for deletion to the file name of a completely different image. No reason given, per normal. Yeah I know, we're not Commons, but I mention it as an example of his editing.
He has twice recently removed a More Citations Needed tag from the article. Although he is adding new citations, the efficacy of many is largely unknowable because they are not accessible, do not give page numbers, or quotes, and it is difficult to determine how many of his edits to Wikipedia need rectification. Much of his refs formatting is poor to say the least.
He rarely gives an edit summary, will not indent talk page comments as requested, and does not sign his posts as requested. Some of his responses to editors are meaningless. He lacks writing ability and his misinterpretation of sources introduces errors to the project — example, a paragraph I deleted. I have rectified a few of his edits, which makes me involved, so that’s why I am here. Many of his contributions are truly disruptive, he largely ignores advice and seems to not want to make a collegial effort. I think he needs a block for a little while to think things over, with a warning that it can be indefinite if on return he continues his troublesome editing. Moriori (talk) 00:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- There's an apparent WP:CIR issue here. I will give him a warning for disruptive editing and follow up on it. Deb (talk) 12:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, Deb, that seems to be the right way forward. The whole article should probably now by overhauled/rewritten by editors with a better understanding of encyclopaedic style and content. It's been on my watchlist since I removed copyvio there. I've sporadically spot-checked some of his edits and found no further copyvio problems; if anyone sees or feels that I've missed anything, please ping me, there or here. Thank you for the ping, Moriori! Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Justlettersandnumbers, another option would be to make all changes to the article subject to review. That might make checking the individual edits a bit easier. Deb (talk) 08:46, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, Deb, that seems to be the right way forward. The whole article should probably now by overhauled/rewritten by editors with a better understanding of encyclopaedic style and content. It's been on my watchlist since I removed copyvio there. I've sporadically spot-checked some of his edits and found no further copyvio problems; if anyone sees or feels that I've missed anything, please ping me, there or here. Thank you for the ping, Moriori! Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Interaction Ban violation
| BLOCKED | |
| Mathsci originally blocked from editing User talk:Francis Schonken by Floquenbeam before being undone with the promise of refraining from editing the talk page (failure to comply may result in a sitewide block). Block escalated to a temporary block of 1 week by NinjaRobotPirate for violating IBAN. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:22, 9 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It looks me like @Mathsci: and @Francis Schonken: are mutually violating their interaction ban, which was set here [302], with the additional aggravating factor that Mathsci appears to be repeatedly posting on FS's talk page [303] and when FS deletes it without comment, Mathsci persistently reverts it [304]. Isn't this the kind of thing Mathsci was banned for previously? ♟♙ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, you're using present tense, but past tense is more appropriate. Suboptimal behavior, but this ended 2.5 days ago. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Apologies if this is tl;dr. I think the problems started 3 weeks ago on the talk page of BWV 543. There was a report on ANI by User:Headbomb, with a complaint about FS, where I was not involved. Subsequently there was a report on WP:ORN#Musical score by FS on 2 November 2020.
- I have made a large number of edits to Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543, previously a stub. Those edits are ongoing, mostly concerning "Bach reception" and parts of the section on "Musical structure," involving period manuscripts and some musical quotations.
- FS initiated a report on WP:ORN#Musical scores; as a consequence, because I had already written musical quotations for the Prelude in A minor, BWV 543/1, I found that I was involuntarily involved in identifying and checking sources for BWV 543 concerning "In popular culture" (Le Clan des Siciliens and themes of Morricone inspired by Bach). As a result, I discovered Bach-Morricone content related to BWV 565. As explained on WP:ORN#Follow up on BWV 543 and BWV 565, for the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565 and the Dollars trilogy, I added completely new content and 3 new sources related to Bach-Morricone. Today I also added 3 new sources re Bach-Stokowski-Disney and Fantasia, adding completely new content and an educational image accordingly.
- Headbomb's recent report on ANI concerning FS & Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 and the report on WP:ORN#Musical score are not anything that I have precipitated. On the lighter side, it has been a relief to listen to Morricone a little on YouTube or Spotify. I am quite surprised how many instantly recognizable hits he had, without knowing he wrote them. Mathsci (talk) 21:48, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just today Mathsci pinged Francis Schonken in an edit summary. Isn't that a clear-cut violation? 2605:8D80:621:519:613F:A45A:A4E1:164F (talk) 22:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please register an account on wikipedia to comment on this noticeboard. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:27, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- This noticeboard is not restricted to registered editors. Grandpallama (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please register an account on wikipedia to comment on this noticeboard. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:27, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- As FB says, the problems happened 2.5 days ago as a result of edits on WP:ORN#Musical score. It started with FS editing with no signature. I added his username, because it was directly above my previous edits and so completely confusing.[305] Then he added his signature but changed my punctuation.[306] He then looked at the edit history to record the time.[307] I requested that FS correct his errors without moving my material.[308] He then moved his content so that it completely changed where I had placed it.[309] I restored the place intended.[310] He then worked out how to solve the errors he had made without interferring with my edits.[311] Finally he removed the "dummy" buffer passage on WP:ORN, previously used to move my edits.[312] Moving things around in that way was disruptive. but resolved fairly easily. Mathsci (talk) 23:27, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- You have an interaction ban. You may explicitly not edit their comments, revert them, or harass them by edit warring on their user talk page. You are an extremely experienced editor who knows how interaction bans work, and that you had one with FS which prohibits you interacting with him in any way. The wall of bullshit above does not change the fact you did something you know perfectly well you have been forbidden to do. What does it take to get you to stop fucking with people? Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am struggling to understand the issue here. With incidences continuing today and looking at the talk page fiasco this looks fairly clear cut. Even if 2.5 days ago, whatever that has to do with anything. PackMecEng (talk) 03:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- When you write "fiasco," I'm not sure which talk page you're referring to. There's WP:ORN#Musical score, where Binksternet and Austronesier have both commented once. Then Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 where I have made 14 edits, 6 of them minor. Headbomb has made 21 edits, all marked major; and FS has made 20 edits with 4 marked minor. There Headbomb and FS have had unresolved discussions about film music (see Headbomb's previous ANI report). On Talk:Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565, I have made 9 edits, 4 marked minor: these were related to additions of 4 new sources and new material; plus minor problems concerning two sentences in the lead. It appears that editing on BWV 565 is resuming in the middle of the night as I write. (Outstanding issues with the 2016 GAR are being addressed.) Mathsci (talk) 05:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- I mean the user talk page of Francis Schonken where you were in an edit war with them.[313] PackMecEng (talk) 05:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- When you write "fiasco," I'm not sure which talk page you're referring to. There's WP:ORN#Musical score, where Binksternet and Austronesier have both commented once. Then Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 where I have made 14 edits, 6 of them minor. Headbomb has made 21 edits, all marked major; and FS has made 20 edits with 4 marked minor. There Headbomb and FS have had unresolved discussions about film music (see Headbomb's previous ANI report). On Talk:Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565, I have made 9 edits, 4 marked minor: these were related to additions of 4 new sources and new material; plus minor problems concerning two sentences in the lead. It appears that editing on BWV 565 is resuming in the middle of the night as I write. (Outstanding issues with the 2016 GAR are being addressed.) Mathsci (talk) 05:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly as Floquenbeam wrote, that happened 3 days ago and the diffs have been described step-by-step above (23:27, 5 November 2020). Mathsci (talk) 06:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- How many days is not relevant. It means nothing at all to this discussion or interaction bans in general. I do not know why it was brought up in the first place, since again, it is meaningless. PackMecEng (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly as Floquenbeam wrote, that happened 3 days ago and the diffs have been described step-by-step above (23:27, 5 November 2020). Mathsci (talk) 06:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
What's the point of an interaction ban if it suddenly doesn't matter two days later? Heck, we can just can ArbCom since 99% of the cases involve things that happened two days before they deliberate. We're talking about repeated offenses from an individual with a long history both with the other person involved and with 16 blocks on their record and has had multiple interaction bans. Forget about Bach, how many entries would there be at this point in the Mathsci- Verstoß-Verzeichnis? Chopin would have long been clipped by this number. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 07:26, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well there is a recent WP:AN3 report here[314] and a recent report WP:ANI here[315]. I was not involved, but the ANI report by Headbomb concerned arguments on Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 about film scores. Sourced content was supplied; however, when I added a score for the "Musical structure" in the article that precipitated a report on WP:ORN#Musical score connected to the score. That was vaguely related to the film music but had very little connection with the current article. As for blocks, FS has been blocked 6 weeks in 2018 and then for a year slightly afterwards. The only substantial block that I had was an WP:ARBR&I ban in October 2013, subject to review after 6 months (most arbs preferred one year). Only in April 2016 did I request a review. Otherwise your analysis of blocks doesn't seem accurate. There was a 1 hour block in 2008 + a 1 day block in 2008 (Elonka related?); a 1 day block in 2010 (Pmanderson related?); then a 2 hour block in 2013; then the long arbcom ban related to WP:ARBR&I; some changes in the ban settings in 2014; then a 5 day block for the 2016 Nice truck attack; and then a 1 week block in February 2018 (post-stroke in a cardiology ward). As for edits, you've made about 350 in your WP career, so less than my recent edits to Planar Riemann surface, Riemann mapping theorem, etc. Mathsci (talk) 09:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- These are quite obviously violations of the sanction, regardless of how much time has passed. Yet the two sanctioned editors appear to have resolved the situation amicably, and neither seems to be agitating for enforcement here; this is a third-party report and I don't see any evidence that these interactions have been disruptive to anyone else. Shouldn't we just move on? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:39, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- To respond to a couple of questions above, it does matter if it is reported 2.5 days after it stops, because the purpose of an i-ban is not to punish or get vengeance on one's enemies, but to prevent disruption. If there had been a limited-time violation of the i-ban by both people, but it had resolved, then bringing it here would have been unnecessary. Since there appears to be ongoing interaction, then bringing it here is justified. From a brief review, it looks to me like there's been low-grade violations on both sides. I'll leave that to other people to review in more detail; my instinct is a firm reminder to both not to move each others' comments, not to fix each others' signatures, not to revert each other, etc. might be sufficient, but it will take more time than I have to see if someone is much more to blame than the other. But MathSci's behavior on FS's talk page is kind of obviously over-the-top unacceptable. While discussion is ongoing on the other stuff, I've indefinitely partially blocked MathSci from FS's talk page as a preliminary measure. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:10, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- The partial block of MathSci from FS's talk page looks like a good idea. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable, yeah. I don't think it matters at all that it was two days in the past, the users are either banned from interacting or they are not. That said, we don't impose sanctions just for the sake of punishment, and if this interaction was resolved without incident and the only thing worth complaint about it is that it technically violated a restriction, then at best a reminder is all we should do here. But it seems to me more like the incident is ongoing, and so the block is appropriate. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:27, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam I understand why you have imposed this ban. Given my record on that user talk page,[316] I would prefer a voluntary ban. In any case, I will not edit that user talk page. Since 2012, I have carefully observed all IBANs from WP:ARBR&I (User:Mikemikev excluded). With a permanent red bar on my edit contributions, however, it is quite likely that I would stop editing wikipedia. Floquenbeam or other administrators can advise me on removing the red bar (i.e. undoing the partial block subject to stringent assurances agreed with an administrator).
- The edits to Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 and WP:ORN#Musical score by the other editor do not seem to have been written to benefit wikipedia. See Headbomb's previous report.[317] In December 2017, that applied similarly for BWV 142, a cantata not by Bach. On WP:RSN, the other editor argued that standard reliable sources could not be used.[318] The discussion there later involved an administrator, who suggested various tbans or ibans (my edits ended abruptly there, because of stroke). The whole scenario, with improper use of primary sources and failure to use reliable secondary sources, has been a persistent problem. Like BWV 142, the article Liebster Gott, wann werd ich sterben below, mostly created by the other editor, has the same sourcing problems: primary sources from the 18th and mid-19th century, including direct use of raw data from the Bach Archive, etc; relevant recent content from journals such as Early Music has been ignored. Mathsci (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathsci:, I'm not looking to chase anyone off Wikipedia by being a stickler for rules, and I'd normally be happy to replace an actual partial block with your promise not to post there. But... you already have an interaction ban, and you broke that agreement. In fact, it sure feels like you are currently breaking it right above, complaining about FS's editing. You can't do that when there's an interaction ban. I like the partial block because it prevents you from forgetting in the heat of the moment. But if you really still want me to, I'll replace the partial block with a warning that if you do post to their talk page again, you'll actually be blocked site-wide. Is that what you want? If so, let me know. And please stop complaining about FS's editing, or someone is going to block you site-wide with or without my unblocking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Gerda already mentioned me on your user talk page. Yes, I realise that I should approach things with a measured cool head, never in the heat of the moment. Instead of an indefinite partial block, I would prefer your suggestion of a severe warning that, if I post to the user talk page, I will automatically be blocked site-wide. If that is possible to arrange, that would be kind. Thanks for helping me with your advice. Mathsci (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Done. Be careful, and don't forget please. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:06, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Gerda already mentioned me on your user talk page. Yes, I realise that I should approach things with a measured cool head, never in the heat of the moment. Instead of an indefinite partial block, I would prefer your suggestion of a severe warning that, if I post to the user talk page, I will automatically be blocked site-wide. If that is possible to arrange, that would be kind. Thanks for helping me with your advice. Mathsci (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathsci:, I'm not looking to chase anyone off Wikipedia by being a stickler for rules, and I'd normally be happy to replace an actual partial block with your promise not to post there. But... you already have an interaction ban, and you broke that agreement. In fact, it sure feels like you are currently breaking it right above, complaining about FS's editing. You can't do that when there's an interaction ban. I like the partial block because it prevents you from forgetting in the heat of the moment. But if you really still want me to, I'll replace the partial block with a warning that if you do post to their talk page again, you'll actually be blocked site-wide. Is that what you want? If so, let me know. And please stop complaining about FS's editing, or someone is going to block you site-wide with or without my unblocking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- The edits to Talk:Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 and WP:ORN#Musical score by the other editor do not seem to have been written to benefit wikipedia. See Headbomb's previous report.[317] In December 2017, that applied similarly for BWV 142, a cantata not by Bach. On WP:RSN, the other editor argued that standard reliable sources could not be used.[318] The discussion there later involved an administrator, who suggested various tbans or ibans (my edits ended abruptly there, because of stroke). The whole scenario, with improper use of primary sources and failure to use reliable secondary sources, has been a persistent problem. Like BWV 142, the article Liebster Gott, wann werd ich sterben below, mostly created by the other editor, has the same sourcing problems: primary sources from the 18th and mid-19th century, including direct use of raw data from the Bach Archive, etc; relevant recent content from journals such as Early Music has been ignored. Mathsci (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment So the first thing after reaffirming the interaction ban is to go to an article Francis Schonken recently created and start major revisions?[319]PackMecEng (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Seems they are still going at it on the Daniel Vetter article. The mass revert with no edit summary was a good touch as well.[320]PackMecEng (talk) 16:05, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- So much for Plan A? Someone should propose a Plan B. Lev!vich 17:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Normally I would think a block or some such. Though looking at this no one seems to care. PackMecEng (talk) 21:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- So much for Plan A? Someone should propose a Plan B. Lev!vich 17:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for a week. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:23, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Seems they are still going at it on the Daniel Vetter article. The mass revert with no edit summary was a good touch as well.[320]PackMecEng (talk) 16:05, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Liebster Gott
I wrote the first version of the "Liebster Gott, wann werd ich sterben" article between 27 June and 2 July – from that point on nearly any modification of the article content, apart from a clear-cut addition, has a high risk of undoing something I added to the page in an earlier stage. --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:58, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- BWV 8, cantata no. 8 of Johann Sebastian Bach, composed in 1724, is stable content. New sources have been added, from William G. Whittaker's book on Bach cantatas and from Arnold Schering's Eulenberg study score, containing a lengthy preface. On WP. there is a series of articles on Lutheran hymns linked to cantatas and chorale preludes. The article above is about a Lutheran hymn written by Caspar Neumann with music by Daniel Vetter, based on a chorale written in 1713. For the cantata, there is general agreement amongst editors on how the article should be written. (Gerda Arendt has said, that for the article above, it is the Lutheran hymn that is important, not the cantata.) No commentators doubt that the closing chorale of Vetter was borrowed with some modifications for Bach's setting 11 years later. No recent substantial academic discussion challenging that can be found. However, FS has decided that the whole article on the Lutheran hymn should investigate the authenticity of Vetter's chorale as used by Bach. 12 musical images and several primary texts from the 18th and mid-19th century are provided as "proof" that the chorale is spurious. Thus, instead of writing an article on a Lutheran hymn, a large part of the article has been used to write an alternative view of Cantata No. 8, Liebster Gott, wenn werd ich sterben? BWV 8, with content which seemingly contradicts the article on the cantata. The Bach Archive links directly to the stable wikipedia article on BWV 8. That is a good thing.
- Similarly the editor above has tried to "prove" statements about Ennio Morricone which probably can never be decided. As far as I can understand, there has been an attempt to claim that a musical score is equivalent to an English text. I have not been able to follow the argument. I have discovered that, according to Morricone, it took 20 days for him to figure out how to write the theme for Le Clan des Siciliens. He has not given complete details about that, but hinted that he combined BWV 543/1 and a hidden B-A-C-H theme. So again, things that cannot be proved. Mathsci (talk) 06:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Opening
| NO ACTION | |
| (non-admin closure) No administrative action taken as opening statement/case from filer is unclear. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Opening — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.23.133.153 (talk) 02:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- 103.23.133.153, do you have an incident that needs to be addressed by an administrator? (Non-administrator comment) Heart (talk) 04:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
User:ProcrastinatingReader
| ProcrastinatingReader has done nothing inappropriate, and if anything (based on the few technical questions I have been asked regarding the implementation of the merge) it sounds like they have nearly bent over backwards trying to make sure all parties are satisfied with the merge itself. ANI is not the place to contest the result of a TFD, nor to railroad the person who is attempting to implement it; this should be done at WP:DRV. If there are no substantive or outcome-based objections to the merger, then those opposed to this move need to accept that and step back. If those opposed to this merger do not wish to file a DRV, then the merge can proceed, but we should give them a couple of days to file to avoid potentially having to mass-undo the substing/replacement that is required of the merge. Primefac (talk) 10:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Earlier today, ProcrastinatingReader (talk · contribs) put two infoboxes into AnomieBOT's TemplateSubster queue, despite there being ongoing discussion (and no consensus) for the first one and very little discussion for the second. In the ongoing discussion, mostly at Template talk:Infobox station#UK stations merge but also elsewhere, ProcrastinatingReader was informed several times of outstanding problems. There were also a number of questions put by myself which have either not been answered satisfactorily, or not been answered at all. ProcrastinatingReader was informed by several people that whilst converting Template:Infobox GB station into a wrapper might, ultimately, be acceptable, carrying out a subst: would not be. At 00:58, 22 October 2020, Thryduulf (talk · contribs) warned ProcrastinatingReader that they should wait for consensus that there are no remaining issues before proceeding with rolling out anything. ... If you continue to insist on arbitrary deadlines then you will very likely find yourself enjoying a trip to ANI.
ProcrastinatingReader has now carried out their threat, so here we are. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:16, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is an egregious misrepresentation of the issue. Perhaps one is not meant to list their own faults at ANI but still, this is a shocking summary. I'll type up an actual response at some point today, but it's too cold currently and I somewhat lack the energy for this mess. It is a shame it has to come here, but since the dispute is wholly conduct issues (and not content) - ones I would argue are not really my own (at least not mostly) - it was probably destined to end up here at some point. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- As I say, I don't think the above summary is a fair summary of what has happened here.
- This begins back in July with this TfD. It found a consensus to merge, including input from highly experienced template editors. The infoboxes were pretty much duplicates. Similar has been done with many templates before, eg Template:Infobox Japan station & Template:Infobox China station. So I began to work on implementing the TfD outcome, and started a discussion to hash remaining details out with editors here.
- Immediately after the TfD is closed as merge, Thryduulf and Redrose64 engage in Special:Diff/970866879/970964966. They reject that the consensus is valid because it wasn't full of UK WikiProject participants. To save myself possibly wasting time, I ask both in User_talk:Redrose64/unclassified_27#DRV if they indeed plan to go to DRV, as threatened. No response or DRV to date.
- But these 'invalid consensus' claims, and attempts to relitigate the TfD, continued persistently for 4 months. Not just to me, but others too. Pretty much WP:BADGER to tire editors out. eg Special:Diff/972339764/972398735 (line 116 part), Special:Diff/976525263, Special:Diff/980679426. Attempts to overturn the consensus, cancel the merge altogether, or turn it into a wrapper (rejected in the discussion) were constantly made. But no new points raised (other than attempts to relitigate the same points in the TfD) as to why that should be done.
- Once we hashed the points, I asked on 21 September if any concerns were remaining/unaddressed. No response for a week, so on 28 September I synced the wrapper. Redrose finally replies: Special:Diff/980783351.
- All editors in the TfD were pinged to give their thoughts. On top of Redrose and Tyruduulf there were 3 other opposers. Here are their responses, when asked if the completed wrapper addresses their issues and if it's ready to be merged:
- Special:Diff/981317412:
in essence, I cannot see the major difference between the two, so no objections. I do thank you for your efforts and taking everyone's opinions and thoughts with policy into account can't be easy.
- Special:Diff/981076378/981093355:
I see that you've done a good job with the three test cases. There seem to be more similarities across country borders than I expected.
- Special:Diff/981214226 & Special:Diff/981680471/982256670. This regards Module:Adjacent stations (as answered by Jonesey) (Special:Diff/982226496), which is a fair concern but is not related to the merge. They had no objections to the merge itself.
- Special:Diff/981317412:
- So, a review: We have a large consensus of respected editors at TfD to merge, with a specification on how to merge. After a discussion, all the oppose voters, except the two who already made up their mind of an "invalid consensus", decided the merge was good when shown the finished product. Redrose and Thryduulf; good editors, experienced, perhaps they have a point somewhere?
- Thryduulf, after Special:Diff/984775936, began to raise his concerns in a constructive manner; conduct was rectified, and so discussion became more productive with him.
- Redrose, well, nobody knows what her concerns are. Several editors (at a skim, @Cards84664, @Pi.1415926535, @Jonesey95*) have failed to get them out of her. eg diffs Special:Diff/984372740, Special:Diff/984522585, Special:Diff/984325686. I dunno the "unanswered questions" she refers to (refuses to clarify), but based on context eg Special:Diff/985247241, perhaps: Special:Diff/981373011, Special:Diff/981680471 and Special:Diff/969960200. These are a continuation of IDHT, and the legitimacy of these questions was rejected, explicitly by @Izno and @Mackensen in the TfD, and by @Pigsonthewing in the 2012 TfD:
The question, while no doubt asked with good faith, is contrary to key Wikipedia policies, and to how TfD works, and is unhelpful
.
- Incivility: Then comes: Special:Diff/985247241. After pressed to find an issue, she responds with Special:Diff/987093220. The TLDR, if anyone needs one, may as well be this diff. I mean,
The infobox worked just fine until you stuck your claws in. Now take them out, put things right back to the way they were, and everybody will be happy (except yourself). And I don't see why your happiness should matter at all, because (a) you clearly care nothing for my happiness, and (b) you still have not told me when you have actually used Template:Infobox GB station. I don't think that you have. Ever.
. The replies to this: Special:Diff/987108079 (key:though I think at last we are all speaking plainly to one another
), and mine: Special:Diff/987115547/987129798. By her own admittance,There, I've written it now, and am angry again; so block me for NPA.
- 4 months of extensive post-TfD discussion later, the merge is complete, tested and editors seem overall in agreement, with no outstanding points (by my judgement). I believe we have consensus and approval, and even RR has raised no unresolved, specific complaints. The substitutions from Anomie show all the data being carried over: Special:Diff/987452456.
- Sure, I get that having something you've worked on for ~10 years merged may be difficult. I tried my best to show restraint for these reasons. But it's an improvement for the encyclopaedia – for editors and readers – and we do it all the time in templates. That's why I nominated it, and why there was a consensus to merge. I think it's a boon to station articles, and it seems most others feel the same way. That's why I (and others) spent a lot of time on it.
- I'd appreciate input from an uninvolved admin on this rather unfortunate situation. I'd like to know how I could've handled it better. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:37, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- As I say, I don't think the above summary is a fair summary of what has happened here.
- I endorse the comments by Redrose64. The discussion about this issue is ongoing, and despite repeated requests to slow down, to listen to others and to actually answer questions, ProcrastinatingReader has done none of those things. Even if you take the TfD as representing consensus for a wrapper (this is borderline given that many of the assumptions of simplicity and similarity used to justify it have been shown to be as incorrect as those in opposition, notably including nearly everyone who actually uses the templates, argued), it cannot be used to say there is consensus that all the necessary work required before a merge has been completed. Thryduulf (talk) 12:30, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- It pains me to say this, but I don't think there's any level of cooperation that Thryduulf and Redrose64 would consider sufficient on this issue. I do not think they accept the original TfD as legitimate, inasmuch as that TfD requires meaningful changes. It's a well-recognized principle that infobox consolidation is a good thing, and should be encouraged where reasonable. Redrose64 says her questions are never answered. Well, mine never was either: why did Great Britain need a half-dozen different station infoboxes when the rest of the world managed with two? The answer, as can be seen above, boils down "because we have them, and who are you to suggest that we change?" Respectfully, that's a poor attitude for a collaborative project and not one I'd expect to see from senior participants. Mackensen (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
It's a well-recognized principle that infobox consolidation is a good thing, and should be encouraged where reasonable.
this is the crux of the dispute - it might be well recognised among TfD participants, but there is a long history of those who use the infoboxes under consideration disagreeing, and especially disagreeing with what is reasonable. Consolidation is not a reasonable goal in and of itself, the onlt goal that matters is improving the encyclopaedia for readers. Despite months of work, we are not yet at the stage where the merged infobox is of the same quality as the old one, let alone an improvement. Whether other countries get by with fewer infoboxes than the UK is irrelevant, but one reason is that the structural organisation of rail transport in the UK currently and historically is qualitatively different and in many respects more complicated than it is in the rest of the world. The difference in approach between those of us who are approaching this from the point of view of people who edit articles about rail transport in the UK and those who are approaching it as an abstract template coding project is significant. Thryduulf (talk) 23:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)- You're taking the position that decisions about content, structure, and style are reserved to specific groups of editors and that the views of "outsiders", whomever they might be, are unwelcome. That's not the way this project should work. You know this, and I'm surprised to see you advancing such worn-out arguments, especially when there are editors who do edit UK rail articles who have supported consolidation. Perhaps they just don't edit them enough, I don't know. Is there a list one can consult of those people who are permitted to have an opinion on this question?
- As to the idea that British rail history is sufficiently different and complex as to require different station infoboxes, I find it unconvincing and so have many others. You're not the only country to experience nationalization and re-privatization. Your ownership complexities are no worse than those found in the United States, Germany, Switzerland, or South Korea. Mackensen(talk) 23:43, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Nice strawmen. Nowhere here or elsewhere have I argued that only those who use the infoboxes should be allowed to express an opinion. I have said though that when those people do have objections they should not be handwaved away, as is happening in this very discussion, by those who do not. When you have one opinion held by the majority of those commenting who use the template, and a different opinion held nearly exclusively by those who do not, it needs to be looked into whether that truly represents consensus (for or against) regardless of the numbers. I didn't say that the history and ownership complexities justify a separate infobox, I said they are one of the reasons why the UK infoboxes that are doing things differently - the reality they are reflecting is qualitatively different to the complexities in other countries. Not necessarily more or less complicated, but different and so any infobox needs to handle that difference rather than, as keeps being attempted, force square pegs into existing round holes. It is the complexity required to handle the differences from every different nation (and note that it has to date proven to hard to get right, despite months of effort) that is why the argument that consolodation = simplicity for editors and maintainers just does not hold water. Thryduulf (talk) 01:01, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- But that's not really true though, is it? The source. Or Testcase #3. It's an A -> B parameter map. The ownership params have the same names and labels before and after the merge. It's passed right through untouched. This argument didn't hold water in the TfD either because it's not true. As can be seen more clearly in any of the Anomie diffs too (like Special:Diff/987452456). If it didn't truly represent consensus, why does a DRV still not exist? We did get it right, everyone else seems to think so too. The alternate explanation for this opposition is across all the diffs above and on display at the TfDs; a view that {{Infobox station}} is somehow {{Infobox USA station}}. If you say something, shouldn't I take you at your word? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:24, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also... if that isn't what you're arguing, then what else is this? Every editor can say "yes, this is an improvement" at the centralised venue for these discussions, the opposers can even change their mind, but we still cannot proceed until you two "sign off on it" (a quote, diffed above)? Respectfully, you don't see any problems with this reasoning? It's effectively blockading a consensus-backed merge. Compare this to the first two paragraphs of WP:IDHT, esp:
Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted. The community's rejection of your idea is not proof that they have failed to hear you.
ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Nice strawmen. Nowhere here or elsewhere have I argued that only those who use the infoboxes should be allowed to express an opinion. I have said though that when those people do have objections they should not be handwaved away, as is happening in this very discussion, by those who do not. When you have one opinion held by the majority of those commenting who use the template, and a different opinion held nearly exclusively by those who do not, it needs to be looked into whether that truly represents consensus (for or against) regardless of the numbers. I didn't say that the history and ownership complexities justify a separate infobox, I said they are one of the reasons why the UK infoboxes that are doing things differently - the reality they are reflecting is qualitatively different to the complexities in other countries. Not necessarily more or less complicated, but different and so any infobox needs to handle that difference rather than, as keeps being attempted, force square pegs into existing round holes. It is the complexity required to handle the differences from every different nation (and note that it has to date proven to hard to get right, despite months of effort) that is why the argument that consolodation = simplicity for editors and maintainers just does not hold water. Thryduulf (talk) 01:01, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ProcrastinatingReader in their response, especially regarding the blatant obstruction and rampant WP:OWN being carried by Redrose64 over the last few months. The issues of incivility as pointed out in #6 and #7, in my opinion are enough for a Boomerang. I sincerely hope that Redrose64 can respect the broad consensus as it currently stands. Cards84664 02:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Fully agreed with Mackensen, PR, and Cards here. This is nothing but an attempt to punish PR for properly implementing the consensus of a TfD. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Reading through Template talk:Infobox station, I see a group of editors working towards implementing a TfD result, and two editors working towards proving that it was the wrong result, e.g.:
- Thryduulf
- 3 Aug:
More parameters leading to inappropriate use, misuse and added confusion was exactly why many of us argued against this merge.
- 29 Sep:
I'm still not seeing any consensus among those who actually have a stake in the template (i.e. the users of the template - article writers and maintainers) that the merge is a benefit (let alone a net benefit).
- 2 Oct:
It is telling that after months of development we still have something that is inferior to the existing template and has not demonstrated any of the advantages claimed a merge would bring - indeed the "simplicity" and "ease of maintenance" claims could have been written on the side of a bus for all they relate to the real world.
- 19 Oct:
Wikipedia is not a democracy, what the majority do or do not think is not relevant when there is clearly no consensus among editors actively engaged with the issue. This was also the problem with the TfD close - it completely failed to distinguish between the arguments made by those with active experience of using the template and the arguments made by those looking at it as an abstract concept, even though almost all the latter arguments are now demonstrably incorrect.
- 20 Oct:
Expending a lot of effort over 3+ months to make things harder for editors and producing an inferior output for readers is exactly why those involved with these templates recommended not merging.
- 22 Oct:
You should wait for consensus that there are no remaining issues before proceeding with rolling out anything. Indeed if, when I get time to do a review, I find there are still major issues then I will likely be reverting to the pre-wrapper template (i.e. the one that has consensus). If you continue to insist on arbitrary deadlines then you will very likely find yourself enjoying a trip to ANI.
- 3 Aug:
- Redrose64
- 1 Oct:
I cannot agree to any "full merge" outcome, it would be far too disruptive. If the process cannot be aborted, a wrapper is the only feasible way of allowing a smooth transition.
- 18 Oct:
No. It's still not been signed off by the people who actually use {{Infobox GB station}}
- 4 Nov:
So, clearly my views count for nothing, even though I am (or, if you have your way, was) one of the most active users of Template:Infobox GB station. The way it behaved before was absolutely not a "bug", it was designed that way, and nobody at WT:UKRAIL ever complained about any modification that I made. The infobox worked just fine until you stuck your claws in. Now take them out, put things right back to the way they were, and everybody will be happy (except yourself). And I don't see why your happiness should matter at all, because (a) you clearly care nothing for my happiness, and (b) you still have not told me when you have actually used Template:Infobox GB station. I don't think that you have. Ever. So who counts here - the people who actually use the infobox, or the people who don't. I would say the former. Can you deny that?
- 1 Oct:
- Thryduulf
- I think there are only three valid options: (1) help implement the TfD result, (2) appeal the TfD result, or (3) walk away. Lev!vich 05:43, 8 November 2020 (UTC)