위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1078

위키호킹(제안:IBAN)

좋아, 난 ANI에 물건을 가져오는 게 싫어내가 언제 마지막으로 그랬는지 확실하지 않다.하지만 이 시점에서 나는 선택의 여지가 없어 보인다.대략 2-3개월 전, 나는 다른 편집자인 네메시스와 의견 충돌이 있었다.솔직히 나는 그것이 무엇으로 끝났는지 기억하지 못한다.하지만, 그 전에는 편집자와의 상호작용이 거의 없었다.그 이후로 수많은 상호작용이 있었는데, 그 중 대다수가 (전부는 아닐지라도) 이 편집자에 의해 내가 편집한 편집에 대한 부정적인 반응이다, 이 보고서를 보라.나는 그들에게 명백한 위키호킹에서 벗어나라고 부탁했다. 첫 번째는 AfD에서, 그리고 2주 전 그들의 토크 페이지에서, User talk:네메시스AT#위키호킹.나는 그들의 반응을 그곳에서 선의로 받아들였지만, 그 이후로 그들은 다소 가라앉은 태도로나마 행동을 계속하고 있다.가장 최근의 상호작용은 OKI Common Lisp, Patrick McDermott(매사추세츠 정치인), 런던 버스 노선 242번, 위키백과:삭제 조항/존 레이먼드 에블린 스탄스펠드(2차 지명), 나는 너 많이 좋아해! 투르. 마침내 살렘 지방 기획국이 있었는데, 그로 인해 나는 그것을 AfD로 보내게 되었고, 그곳에서 나는 다시 그에게 탈주자를 요청하였다.그는 자신이 하고 있는 일이 위키백과에서 볼 수 있는 위키호킹이라는 사실을 인정하지 않았다.삭제/살렘 지방계획 당국 조항.이것은 위키피디아에서 그들이 상호작용을 한 후에 이어졌다.삭제/RenderDoc(2차 지명)에 대한 조항.마지막으로 창데 철도역에서의 상호작용이 있는데, 다시 한 번 문제의 편집자는 내가 편집하기 전까지는 페이지와 아무 상관이 없었다.그리고 재미있는 것은 그들이 내 편집을 되돌리지 않았다는 것인데, 그것은 그들이 나를 되돌렸다는 것을 나에게 경고해 주었을 것이고, 대신에 나에게 알려 주는 것을 회피하기 위한 방법으로 했을 것이다.쿠넨다 역, 화이화 역, 난양 역도 마찬가지. 그 후에도 나는 그들이 떠나기를 바라고 있었다.하지만, 바로 오늘 이 일이 있었는데, 다시 한번 내 감시 목록에 없는 한 나에게 경고를 주지 않는 방식으로 행해졌다.이 시점에서 나는 지역사회가 이 편집자에게 상호작용을 금지하기를 바란다.오넬5969 02:51, 2021년 8월 22일(UTC)

이 의견의 불일치는 이것에서 시작된 것 같다 - [1][2].상호작용 타임라인은 실제로 많은 편집이 서로 몇 시간 또는 며칠 이내에 이루어지는 것과 큰 중첩을 보여준다.일반적인 패턴은 오넬이 기사를 작성하고 네메시스가 기사를 삭제하는 것이다.아니면 오넬이 기사를 리디렉션하고 네메시스가 그것을 되돌리는 것이다.그러나 쿠넨다 역에서 오넬은 8월 18일 기사를 다시 옮기고 12분 뒤 네메시스에 의해 되돌아갔다.Nemesis는 이전 6월 30일에 그 기사를 편집했었다 [3].마찬가지로 8월 14일 오넬이 창데 철도역을 리디렉션한 것은 한 시간 후 네메시스에 의해 되돌렸고, 그것이 그들의 첫 번째 기사 편집이었다[4].그러나 네메시스는 [5]년 6월 26일에 토크 페이지를 편집했다.적어도 이 두 경우에서 네메시스가 그 기사들을 감시했다고 믿는 것은 타당하다.또한 네메시스가 다른 사람의 리디렉션을 되돌려서 기사를 가장 먼저 편집한 사례도 몇 가지 있는데, 오넬은 다음 편집에서 [6][7][8][9][10][11]이다.이는 네메시스가 프로드와 새 리디렉션을 순찰하고, 오넬이 새 페이지 순찰을 하는 동안 알림과 리디렉션을 위해 태그를 지정하는 것으로 설명할 수 있다.그래서 나는 이것이 단순히 두 편집자가 서로 반대되는 편집 패턴을 가지고 있기 때문에 겹치는 것인지 궁금하다.ಮಲನನಡ್್್್ ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ((토크) 06:27, 2021년 8월 22일 (UTC)

안녕, 나와 오넬은 의견 차이를 보였지만(Angain, I can't remember that I remember overed) 내 기억이 맞다면 여기서 리디렉션되고 삭제되는 콘텐츠의 양에 눈을 뜬 버스 콘텐츠에 대한 삭제 논의에 대한 위키프로젝트 트레인스의 메시지였다.

많은 양의 기사를 보는데, 기사를 보고 있던 기차역 기사나 오넬이 알려준 사용자의 토크 페이지를 보고 있다.버스 노선 기사도 내 감시 목록에 있었다.또한 자동화된 보고서와 카테고리를 사용하여 새로운 PROD를 찾고, 삭제 논의를 하고, 리디렉션하고 있다.

오넬에 대한 대응으로, 그들이 편집하는 페이지 수가 많기 때문에 상호 작용 금지를 부과하는 것은 공평하지 않을 것이라고 생각한다.나는 그들을 괴롭히는 것이 아니라, 내가 여기서 괴롭힘을 당하고 있다는 것을 느낀다.관심 없는 주제에 왜 페이지를 편집하냐고 물어보셔서 버스나 기차역 기사(내 핵심 관심사)를 꺼내는 걸 보면 정말 답답하다.네메시스AT (토크) 07:17, 2021년 8월 22일 (UTC)

나 또한 편집한 내용을 숨기려 했다는 오넬의 제안에 전적으로 반대하며, 편집 요약을 통해 비난한 후에 위선적이라는 것을 알게 되었고, 나중에 위키백과에서 다음과 같이 말했다.삭제/살렘 지방 계획 당국, 나에게 ping을 하지 않은 조항.나는 Undo 버튼을 사용해서 알림을 보냈는지 몰랐고, Undo 버튼을 사용하여 되돌아가야 하는 어떠한 지침도 알지 못했다.분명히 말하면, 나는 오넬에게 어떤 조치가 취해지기를 바라지 않는다.나는 단지 그들이 이전에 편집했던 페이지를 내가 편집할 때마다 그들이 나를 위키호킹이라고 비난하는 것을 멈추기를 원한다.네메시스AT (토크) 07:52, 2021년 8월 22일 (UTC)

• Onel5969 반대는 PROD 후보 지명을 자주 하는데, 그 결과 하루에 한 번 이상 후보 지명을 한 것으로 나타났다.그러한 활동은 자연스럽게 같은 소규모의 프로드 패트롤러들의 관심을 끌 것이다.그리고 기차역 등 동종 토픽을 줄줄이 지명하면 자연스럽게 그런 토픽을 보는 편집자들의 관심을 끌게 된다.Onel5969도 종종 하는 AfD 지명이나 드래프트에서도 마찬가지다.그러한 조치는 저자세가 아니다. WP에 따르면 다음과 같다.물어뜯고, 적대적이고, 고압적이다.오넬5969가 프로드하고 네메시스에게 프로드한 존 레이먼드 에블린 스탄스펠드의 최근 사례이것은 많은 편집자들의 관심을 끌었던 거대한 속임수를 만들어냈기 때문에 AT 로딩이 좋은 예다.'논쟁 없는 삭제'를 위한 과정일 뿐 '삭제에 반대할 것으로 예상되지 않는 경우에만 사용해야 한다'는 점에서 이 문제가 제기하기에 적절한 주제가 아니었음을 알 수 있다.만약 Onel5969가 이러한 PROD 규칙을 좀 더 주의 깊게 따른다면, 이것은 문제를 해결하는 경향이 있을 것이다.Andrew🐉 (대화) 08:09, 2021년 8월 22일 (UTC)

나는 앤드류의 말에 동의한다.또한 내 사용자 이름에서 추측할 수 있듯이, 나는 철도 관련 기사에 기여한다. (나는 WP Trains 기사 알림 페이지 watchlisted가 있고 내가 거기서 보는 AfD 알림에 대한 자주 코멘트가 있다.)같은 분야에서 자주 일하는 두 편집자로서, 그들은 자주 마주치게 될 것이고 그것이 위키호킹이라는 것을 의미하지는 않는다.나는 위키호킹에 관심이 있어서가 아니라 AfD에서 우연히 마주쳤고 내가 그것에 대해 논평할 수 있다고 느꼈기 때문에 그 파일러가 언급하는 가장 최근의 AfD 스레드에 참여했다.편집자들은 PROD 후보 지명에 반대할 권리가 있다.오넬이 취하는 PRODs 이외의 행동을 거의 즉각적으로 되돌리는 몇 가지 네메시스의 예는 약간 염려스럽지만 ANI 실을 정당화하지는 않는다.네메시스는 오넬에게 약간의 기회를 주어야 하며, 적절할 때 되돌아가는 대신 토크 페이지를 통해 의사소통을 해야 한다.Onel은 특정 주제에 관심이 있는 편집자들이 해당 주제에 관한 기사에 대한 PROD 후보 지명에 관심을 가질 가능성이 높다는 것을 인식해야 한다.두 분이 정말 이 문제를 해결할 수 없다면 ANI 외에 다른 형태의 분쟁 해결을 추천하고 싶다.열차 및 기타 사항(토크) 16:34, 2021년 8월 22일(UTC)

나는 이 시점에서 상호 작용 금지에 반대한다는 것을 명확히 했다.아무도 여기서 허가받을 필요가 없다.열차 및 기타 사항(토크) 23:25, 2021년 8월 29일(UTC)

나는 네메시스라고 생각한다.AT는 GNG에 대한 이해도를 높일 수 있는 방법이 있다. (여기 투표 내용 참조: 위키백과:삭제/아이모커리(2차 지명) 관련 기사지만 선의로 편집하고 있는 것으로 보인다.임시 솔루션으로 다른 사용자에게 PROD를 맡길 것을 제안하시겠습니까?스타 미시시피 17:55, 2021년 8월 23일(UTC)

나는 기사가 있어야 할 것에 관해서는 확실히 대부분의 사람들보다 관대하다.나는 가능한 한 많은 콘텐츠를 저장하려고 할 뿐이야. 가능한 가이드라인을 이용해서.나는 오넬의 PRODs를 거절하기 전에 다른 사람이 먼저 그렇게 할 수 있도록 시간을 줄 수 있어.내가 여기서 무슨 말을 할 수 있는지 또 무엇을 할 수 있는지 정말 모르겠어.나는 방향을 되돌리는 것에 더 관심이 있고, 그렇게 한다면 위키호킹으로 고발될 것이다.나는 페이지 리디렉션에 이의를 제기해도 괜찮다고 생각한다.행운을 빈다 네메시스AT (토크) 22:00, 2021년 8월 24일 (UTC)

나는 우리가 필요한 제재의 경지에 도달했다고 생각하지 않는다. 하지만 그것은 내가 보기에 어느 정도의 추진력이 감퇴가 진행되고 있는 것처럼 보인다.오넬과 달리, 나는 삭제 제안과 관련하여 매우 적극적이지는 않지만, 이번 달에는 네메시스에 의해 모든 PROD가 경합되었다.AT. 나는 그것들에 대한 스타 미시시피의 코멘트를 적용 가능한 공신력 지침을 충분히 이해한 것에 대해서만 반향할 수 있다.내가 잘 알고 있는 주제 영역에서 본 그들의 소수의 디프로D는 그 주제 영역에서 무엇이 중요하고 중요하지 않은지에 대해 별로 고려하지 않고 만들어졌다.아마도 가장 인상적인 것은 이달 초 자이언트 스노우맨이 그들의 토크 페이지에서 그들이 경쟁했던 프로드 이면의 합리적 이유가 공신력 가이드라인 본문에서 취해진 것이라고 그들에게 설명해야 한다는 논평일 것이다.모두 네메시스라고 말하겠지AT는 단순히 오넬의 PROD에 관한 것 만이 아니라 일반적으로 디프로드로 속도를 늦추는 것이 좋으며, 삭제 과정에 참여하기 전에 관련 공신력 지침과 주어진 주제에 어떻게 적용되는지 확실히 알고 있어야 한다.스푸트니크 경 (대화) 20:45, 2021년 8월 25일 (UTC)

문제의 기사는 제드 애비(지금은 삭제되었지만 여기서 역사를 자세히 설명하겠다) - 다른 사용자가 "Hasnn't made for a football at a team in football, Nemesis"라는 제목의 PROD가 추가되었다.AT는 "이유가 왜 삭제 근거인지 모르겠다"는 내용의 PROD를 삭제했고, 나는 AFD에 기고문을 삭제했다.이는 해당 공신력 지침의 근본적이고 무지/잘못 이해에 관한 것을 보여준다.자이언트 스노우맨 21:03, 2021년 8월 25일 (UTC)

또 다른 우려의 코멘트는 여기에 있다 - "내가 제대로 읽고 있다면, WP:GNG는 취재가 일상적일 것을 요구하지 않는다"고 말했다.다시 말해, 근본적으로 틀린 말이다. GNG는 일상적인 커버리지가 아니라 "중대한 커버리지"를 요구한다.자이언트 스노우맨 21:07, 2021년 8월 25일 (UTC)

편집자들은 무엇이 중요한 보도인가와 무엇이 일상적인 보도인가에 대해 서로 다른 견해를 가지고 있다.언제든지 WP에서 삭제 후보로 지명하십시오.동의하지 않는다면 AFD.나는 이후에 삭제 후보로 지명되지 않았거나 삭제에서 살아남은 다양한 사람들에게 PROD를 거절해왔기 때문에 내가 한 일이 유익했다고 느낀다.다음번에는 내 행동을 더 잘 설명하려고 노력하게 되어 기쁘다.행운을 빈다 네메시스AT (토크) 08:24, 2021년 8월 26일 (UTC)

미안하다, 자이언트 스노우맨, 하지만 이 점에 대해서는 네가 완전히 틀렸어.GNG에서 "중대한"은 일반적으로 "비경로"가 아니라 "비경로"와 동의어다.그렇지 않으면, 당신이 만든 많은 선수들의 전기 중 대부분은 삭제되어야 한다. 왜냐하면 그것들은 일상적인 통계 보고서, 거래 통지서 등에만 소싱/출처가 가능하기 때문이다."비루틴" 표준은 WP에 의거한 두 가지 유형의 기사: WP:COPR, 다양한 일상적인 비즈니스 관련 발표/보고는 공신력에 영향을 미치지 않으며, 스포츠 이벤트와 같은 일부 이벤트의 경우 개별 경기의 취재는 개인의 공신력을 확립하지 못한다.후자의 경우, 간단한 예로, 개별 NFL 게임은 광범위한 세부 커버리지에도 불구하고 개별적으로 매우 드물게 눈에 띈다.대부분의 주목할 만한 사람들은 예외 없이 개인적인 삶을 살고 있고 우리는 우리의 바이오스를 일상적인 취재에 기초하고 있다.예를 들어, 대부분의 미국 주 판사들에게 있어, 우리의 바이오스는 그들의 선택에 대한 일상적인 보도와 그들이 주재하는 뉴스 가치가 있는 경우에 근거한다.빅 배드 울포위츠 (Hulaballoo라고 한다.) 2006년 이후 많은 관리자들에게 더러운 취급을 받았다. 자유를 위해 투쟁하라, 홍콩과 함께 서라! (대화) 06:42, 2021년 8월 30일 (UTC)

• 네미시스AT, 네가 말하는 오클랜드 인민 합창단일 거야.AFD는 내가 그것이 주목할만했다고 동의하지 않았기 때문에 그것을 해결할 것이다.만약 당신이 AfD를 제안할 거라면, 나는 Frederica von Stade로의 리디렉션을 되돌릴 필요가 없다고 본다.너도, 오넬도 편집이 틀리진 않았지만, 토론은 서로를 되돌리는 것보다 더 도움이 된다.그웬 골드먼은 네가 틀렸다고 생각되는 그-모커리지만, 전자에 대한 합의가 어디서 나오는지 볼 수 있을 거야.만약 PRODs가 분명히 논쟁의 여지가 있다면, 다른 누군가가 그것을 2021년 8월 26일 스타 미시시피 01:12, 2021년 8월 26일 (UTC)

  삭제하기 전에 논의가 이루어져야 한다고 생각하여 리디렉션을 되돌렸다.이것이 내가 PROD를 가장 불쾌하게 하는 기사들 외에는 대체로 싫어하는 이유야.내가 기사를 복구한 적이 여러 번 있었는데 그것은 이의를 제기하지 않았거나 AfD에서 살아남은 적이 없었다.다른 편집자들의 관심을 끌기 때문에 AfD로 가져와 토론을 하는 것이 가장 쉽다.네메시스AT (토크) 08:30, 2021년 8월 26일 (UTC)

나는 일반적으로 토론에 동의하지만, AfD는 너무 밀려서 다른 방법으로 해결이 될 수 있을 때 더 추가할 필요가 없다고 생각한다.나는 당신이 시간을 들여서 잠재적인 출처를 찾고 그것들을 토크에 남겨두는 것 또한 도움이 될 수 있다고 생각한다.스타 미시시피 01:22, 2021년 8월 27일(UTC)

• 위와 같은 과정을 거쳐서 나는 거의 이 상호 작용 금지를 지지하는 쪽으로 기울었다.한 편집자의 작품이 다른 편집자의 결단으로 훼손되는 것은 답답한 일이다.나는 네메시스라고 생각한다.AT는 한 사람의 편집과 다른 사람의 편집이 다른 사람의 편집과 마찬가지로 유효하다는 것을 존중하여 선의로 받아들여야 한다.네메시스AT 액션은 프로드와 리디렉션에 대한 엄격한 일반적인 믿음에 기초하여 다른 사람의 작업을 무효화하는 것처럼 보인다.나는 네메시스라고 생각한다.AT는 그들의 판단이 반드시 다른 편집자들보다 예리하거나 나은 것은 아니라는 것을 알아야 한다. ---Steve Quinn (토크) 18:31, 2021년 8월 27일 (UTC)

나는 또한 AFD가 심각하게 다시 기록되어 있고 논쟁적인 AFD들은 더 많은 시간과 에너지를 필요로 한다고 말해야 한다.AFD는 공신력을 결정하는 황금 종착지가 아니다.리디렉션은 매우 수용 가능한 WP 형식이다.ATD. PRODs는 AFD의 부담을 덜어준다.PRODED 또는 리디렉션 기사가 공신력 기준을 충족하지 못할 수도 있다는 경험 많은 편집자의 판단을 대부분 신뢰해도 좋다고 생각한다.---Steve Quinn (대화) 18:44, 2021년 8월 27일 (UTC)

• 만약 40% 혹은 그 이상이라고 하는 공정한 비율이 AfD로 보내지지 않거나 AfD에 보관되어 있다면, 나는 프로드가 문제이지 디프로드가 아니라고 말할 것이다.10% 정도라면, 음, 그 반대야.우리가 숫자를 쉽게 구할 수 있는 방법이 있을까?나는 "음, 너는 좋은 음식을 만들기 위해 사람들을 믿어야 한다"는 말이 마음에 들지 않는다.프로딩의 전체 요점은 NN 주제를 명확하게 삭제하는 경량화 방법을 갖는 것이다.대부분의 경우 로딩이 해제된 후에도 삭제되지 않는다면 디프로드는 합리적일 것이다.호빗 (토크) 04:55, 2021년 8월 28일 (UTC)

  내가 건네줄 번호는 없지만 오넬이 위에서 언급한 존 레이먼드 에블린 스탄스펠드라는 페이지는 논란의 여지가 증명된 PROD의 한 예로서, 결국 그 페이지는 보관되었다.(필요하지는 않지만) 편집요약에서 PROD 제거를 정당화하는 것이 좋으며, 앞으로 내 의도를 더 잘 설명하도록 노력하겠다.행운을 빈다 네메시스AT (토크) 16:29, 2021년 8월 28일 (UTC)

• 지원 — Onel5969의 엔트리가 명시적으로 IBAN을 원한다고 명시하고 있을 때 왜 삭제 방법이나 ATD로 논의가 기울어지는지에 대해 약간 혼란스러워 한다(나는 다른 편집자가 상호 작용하는 것을 막는 한 가지 방법인 IBAN을 가정한다).디프스는 내가 불편해하는 패턴을 보여 준다.호킹 또는 모든 형태의 Wp:복수/ 스토킹은 용납될 수 없으며 나는 편집자들이 그렇게 하는 것처럼 보일 때마다 그것을 멈추려고 노력한다.나는 IBAN이 시행되면 관련 편집자들이 계속 편집하고 평화롭게 공존할 수 있다고 믿는다.그래서 나는 One1의 제안을 지지한다.그는 생산성에 대한 기록을 가지고 있으며 (좀 더 적절한 용어가 없어서) 대량 생산 편집자들을 방해하는 것은 이 프로젝트에 해가 된다.Celestina007 (대화) 13:25, 2021년 8월 28일 (UTC

  나는 일방적 금지, 혹은 어떤 금지 조치를 실행하는 것이 공정하지 않을 것이라고 생각한다.버스 노선이나 기차역 기사처럼 오넬이 위에서 언급한 페이지들이 내가 자주 확인하는 내 감시 목록에 등장했다.Onel이 이전에 편집했는지 확인하기 위해 모든 페이지를 확인해야 하는 것은 편집 시 나에게 추가적인 스트레스를 줄 것이다.오넬은 단순히 내가 편집한 내용을 무시하거나 해당 페이지를 삭제하도록 지명할 수 있다.네메시스AT (토크) 16:26, 2021년 8월 28일 (UTC)

  우리는 그들이 같은 영역에서 편집한다는 증거를 보았다.우리는 때때로 하나는 주어진 기사의 첫 번째가 되고, 때로는 다른 것이 된다는 증거를 보아왔다.그리고 나는 PRODING 기사가 DEPRODING보다 더 "생산적인" 것으로 간주되는 것이라고 확신할 수 없다.호빗 (토크) 17:22, 2021년 8월 28일 (UTC)

• 반대. 이 제안은 터무니없다.인터랙션 금지를 받은 사람이 있다면 오넬5969이다.XFD 로그에 따르면 최근 AfD 후보 지명 시 정확도는 약 50%이며, 수개월 동안 하락하고 있는 것으로 보인다.경험이 많은 사용자, 아마도 "대량 생산적 편집자"로 여겨지는, 이것은 엄청나게 나쁘다.이것은 신을 놀라게 하는 자질이며, 그것은 오넬의 특정 후보들을 선정하는 것을 정당화할 것이다.오넬의 위키피디스가 그의 방어를 위해 이곳에 와서 네메시스를 비방하는 것은 극히 부적절하다.AT는 실질적인 증거를 제시하지 않고 복수심에 불타는 "스토커"로서.수치스럽다.AFD는 내부 정치의 폐허가 되었고, 위키피디아를 백과사전처럼 신경 쓰지 않는 명목공작자들이 점차 그것을 공신력 게임으로 취급하면서 지배하고 있다.
  

짧은 버전:오넬의 지명은 대략 50%의 비율로 실패한다.네메시스AT는 오넬의 좋지 않은 후보에 대해 효과적으로 반박한다.그래서 오넬은 우리가 네미시스를 강제로 침묵시키길 원해AT. 그건 말도 안 돼.빅 배드 울포위츠 (Hulaballoo라고 한다.) 2006년 이후 많은 관리자들에게 더러운 취급을 받았다. 자유를 위해 싸워라, 홍콩과 함께 서라!(대화) 02:08, 2021년 8월 29일 (UTC)

• 반대 음...그것이 맞아요.AfD !votes에 대한 그들의 기록은 좀 더 좋다. 컨센서스 폐쇄가 포함되지 않을 때 총 정확도는 약 70%이지만, 또한 하루에 여러 페이지를 지명하는 경향이 있다(2021년 7월 3일 최대 7페이지).네메시스AT는 비록 압도적으로 많은 표를 행사하지만, 투표 기록도 가지고 있다(합의 없이 약 60%를 포함, 약 60%의 투표 기록도 가지고 있다). PROD와는 달리, 이 중 대부분은 Onel이 지명한 기사에 있지 않다.앤드류 데이비슨이 제시한 증거는 오넬의 최근 PROD 후보 지명자들이 뺑소니라는 것을 보여주는데, 이는 대부분의 디프로드가 네메시스 출신이었는지 여부에 관계없이 그들의 AfD 통계와 대체로 일치한다.이는 솔루션이 상호 작용 금지가 아니라 Onel5969가 삭제 프로세스를 시작하는 것을 금지하는 것임을 시사한다.–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:20, 2021년 8월 29일 (UTC)

  • 정말 말도 안 돼.나는 비록 그들과 AfDs에서 교류하고 무작위로 다른 생각들을 해 봤지만 One의 "위키프렌즈"들 중 하나가 아니다.여기에는 삭제 과정을 금지한 증거가 전혀 없다.만약 그것이 고려 중이라면, 대부분의 장기 편집자들이 논의한 이후 가지고 있는 "뺑소니" 기록 이상의 것이 필요할 것이다.스타 미시시피 주 17:34, 2021년 8월 29일(UTC)

"위키 프렌즈"라는 문구를 사용한 것도 나를 향한 것이었다고 믿는다.만약 그렇지 않다면 이 논의에 다소 중요하지 않고 그것을 제기하는 것은 우리 모두에게 지엽적이고 중대한 해악이다.평화를 가져오고 아마도 이 토론을 완전히 끝내기 위해서 @Nemesis.AT, 현재의 합의로 볼 때 IBAN이 실행될 가능성은 낮다.요약하자면, 당신이 평화롭게 존재하고 여기 있는 당신의 모든 공동편집자들과 생산적으로 편집하기를 원한다고 말하는 것이 옳은가?만약 그렇다면, 만약 그렇다면, 가능한 한 앞으로 나아가는 것이 쉽다면, One1과 겹치지 않도록 노력해라. 그리고 물론 그들이 언제 어디서 그것들을 편집할지 알 수 없지만, 당신은 그것들을 당신의 감시 목록에서 삭제하는 것이 도움이 될 것이고, 그들이 제안한 기사들을 삭제하는 것을 피할 수 있을 것이다.그것은 어렵지만 항상 타협이 있어야 한다.게다가 @RaundryPizza03, 나는 One1이 다작의 새로운 페이지 리뷰어가 될 것이라고 믿지만, 당신이 자주 하는 것과 마찬가지로 당신은 실수를 하는 경향이 있고 완벽함은 거의 도달할 수 없다.마지막으로 @Hullaballoo Wolfowitz가 오넬의 제안을 "논센시컬"이라고 부르는 것은 무례한 것이고, 게다가 위키피디아는 경쟁이 아니다. 알다시피, 통계와 무엇이 현실을 왜곡하고 위키피디아를 흑백으로 보이게 하지 않는 반면, 그렇지 않다.예를 들어 편집자는 눈에 띄지 않는 실체를 삭제하도록 지명할 수 있으며, 앞서 언급한 가상 AFD의 주제가 GNG 또는 관련 SNG를 충족하지 못함에 따라 정확하다. 기사 작성자가 전략적으로 캠페인을 벌이거나 오프위키(Off-wiki)를 할 수 있는 경우, 지명을 한 검토자라도 해당 기사는 '짝퉁'이 될 수 있다.맞았어나는 이 유사점이, 정말로, 이 말다툼이 가치가 있는 것이 아니라, 다른 단체들이 우리를 (진정한 편집자들) "지옥한 편집자들"로 간주하는 것이 충분히 불공평한 일이기를 바란다, 우리는 여기서 큰 임무를 수행하고 있는 서로 씨름할 필요가 없다, 위키피디아의 진정한 목적이 무엇인지 잊지 말거나 우리의 시력을 잃지 말자.이 앞뒤가 임무의 일부가 아니다.Celestina007 (대화) 23:19, 2021년 8월 29일 (UTC

와우, 얼마나 나쁜 믿음의 표시인가.네메시스Celestina007은 Celestina007이 말하길, 만약 당신이 해쉬를 당하고 편집에 지장을 받고 싶지 않다면, 오넬의 의심스러운 편집에 대해 논쟁을 그만둬라.토니 소프라노나 마이클 콜레오네에서 일하니?왜냐하면 그것은 은유적으로 그들이 만드는 일종의 후미( because)'북극적인' 위협은 결국 여전히 위협이다.어떻게든 기사 작성자들이 체계적으로 "전략적으로 캠페인을 벌이거나!을 위한 칸바운스"를 오프위키(Off-wiki)로 설정한다는 제안에 대해서는, 당신의 어리석은 주장을 뒷받침하는 증거가 없다는 것은 우레와 같은 일이다.당신은 통계자료 "이상한 현실"과 공상적 서술 같은 실제 증거가 중요하다고 주장하고 있다.이와 같은 태도는 왜 요즘 AFD가 그렇게 많은지 보여준다; 우리에게는 자신들과 동의하지 않는 합법성을 부정하고 참여하지 않는 사람들의 참여를 거부하는 자명성 기준의 중재자들이 있다."위키피아의 진정한 목적"에 대해 말하자면, 당신이 "모든 인간 지식의 총합"의 탐욕 원리를 거부하고, 실제로 가능한 한 그것을 제한하기를 원하는 편집자 중 한 사람임이 분명하다.빅 배드 울포위츠 (Hulaballoo라고 한다.) 2006년 이후 많은 관리자들에게 더러운 취급을 받았다. 자유를 위해 투쟁하라, 홍콩과 함께 서라! (대화) 00:08, 2021년 8월 30일 (UTC)

@Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, 다시 한 번 안녕하십니까, 나는 "극단적인 위협"이라는 말이 무슨 뜻인지 특별히 잘 모르겠는데, 왜냐하면 나는 어떤 위협도 내가 만든 적이 없기 때문이다, 나는 단지 여기서 해결책을 제시하려 할 뿐이고 여기 있는 모든 편집자들이 평화롭게 편집하고 공존하는 것을 보려 한다, 만약 당신이 이해하기가 꽤 쉬운 이것을 이해하지 못한다면 나는 걱정이 부족한 것 같다.rds, 당신은 다시 한번 나의 완화/중재 시도를 "은실"이라고 불렀는데, 나는 당신이 One1의 제안을 당신에게 무례하다고 말함으로써 "비논리적"이라고 불렀을 때 바로잡았다고 믿는다.지금 이 시점에서 나는 이 토론에서 나 자신을 회복하고 있다.지금까지 의견을 보내줘서 고맙고, 앞으로 한 주 동안 좋은 시간 보내세요.Celestina007 (대화) 00:36, 2021년 8월 30일 (UTC)

• 논평 - 여기에서 몇 가지 근본적인 요점이 누락된 것 같다.오넬의 리디렉션/PROD/AfDs는 중대한 문제가 있는 기사들이다.이것들의 대부분은 NPP 대기열의 뒷부분에서 나온 것이고, 아마도 나를 포함한 다른 NP 패트롤러들이 그들을 다루는 최선의 방법을 확신하지 못한 채 지나갔을 것이다.네메시스는 삭제나 리디렉션으로부터 가능한 한 많은 기사를 저장하려고 하는 것 같다.나는 사실 그 관점에 많은 공감을 가지고 있다; 누군가가 그 기사들 중 일부에 많은 노력을 기울였다.그러나, 쓰레기 기사를 구조하는 것은 여전히 우리에게 다른 사람들에 의해 개선될 수도 있고 개선되지 않을 수도 있는 쓰레기 기사를 남겨준다.WP는 최소한의 표준이 설정된 백과사전으로서, 모든 것을 최소 표준 요건과 상충하는 경우가 많다.리디렉션에서 기사를 복원하는 것은 문제가 될 수 있다: WP:BLUD, 그리고 BLP의 경우 WP:BLP가 복원된 콘텐츠에 적용 가능하기 때문에 기사 복원만으로는 많은 경우 허용되지 않는다.다른 경우에는 현존하는 것과 주목할 만한 것 사이에 구분이 부족한 것 같다.

만약 당신이 그들이 광고 가이드라인을 충족시키지 못한다고 생각하여 AfD로 기사를 보낸다면, 당신은 삭제될 높은 비율을 예상해야 한다.호감도가 낮은 곳에서 지역사회의 합의를 얻기 위해 AFD로 보내는 것은 불합리하지 않다.공지가 50/50인 이런 경우, 50%의 삭제율이 어느 누구도 놀라게 해서는 안 된다.

NP패트롤러들은 대개 개별 기사에 대해 끊임없이 공격을 받는 것 같다.실수(여기서 실수를 하지 않았다고 주장하는 사람은 착각하거나 거짓말쟁이라고 주장하는 사람)는 분명 실수를 저질렀을 것이지만, 나는 그것이 대다수의 경우에 해당된다고 생각하지 않는다.NP패트롤러들이 그 역할을 넘겨받아 어떻게 해야 하는지를 보여주기 위해 그렇게 서투른다고 생각하는 사람들에게 초대장을 발부하고 싶다. --John B123 (토크) 11:10, 2021년 8월 30일 (UTC)

• 나는 우리가 의견 차이를 보이는 곳이 전형적인 포용주의자와 배제론자의 분열이라고 생각한다.포용주의자 쪽의 사람으로서, 나는 PROD가 적당히 괜찮다고 생각하지만, 나는 PROD가 정말로 필요한 것에 대해서만 볼 수 있기를 기대한다.PROD의 상당 부분이 AfD를 통해 성공하고 있다면, 당신은 그것을 잘못된 IMO로 하고 있는 것이다. 다른 사람들은 "쓰레기 기사"가 많다고 주장하기 때문에 그것들을 없애려고 하는 것은 생태계의 중요하고 좋은 부분이다.나도 동의해, 하지만 정말 쓰레기 같은 게 좋을 거야.만약 AfDs가 삭제로 이어지지 않는다면, 아마도 그들은 보이는 것만큼 형편없지는 않았을 것이다.

내가 제안하는 바는 Onel5969가 그들의 PROD에서 더 나은 적중률을 얻도록 노력하라는 것이다. 단지 그들이 지역사회가 제거할 것을 지지할 것이라고 확신하는 것(WP와 인라인:PROD와 네메시스오직 Onel5969의 dePROD 기사들만이 그들이 AfD에서 정말로 기회를 가지고 있다고 느낀다.만약 Onel5969가 그들의 PROD의 20-30% 이상이 삭제되지 않고 있다는 것을 발견한다면, 그들은 적어도 그들의 의사 결정 과정을 계속 다듬어야 할 것이다.만약 네메시스AT는 이들이 60%~70% 이상 삭제되는 디프로듀싱 기사라는 점을 발견하고, 재평가도 해야 한다.그렇다, 나는 PRODS가 명확한 경우를 위한 것이어야 하기 때문에 PRODs가 dePRODs보다 "정확한" 비율이 더 높을 것으로 예상한다.

마지막으로, Celestina007에게는 HW의 요점(솔직히 좀 덜 대립적으로 표현될 수도 있었을 것)이 어느 정도 진실성을 가지고 있다고 생각한다--나는 네메시스가 상당히 높은 오류율을 견제하고 있는 것처럼 보이는 것을 보고 있다.기분 나쁘다고 그만둘 일이 아니야동시에 네메시스AT는 다른 사람들이 만약 그들이 진짜라면 문제를 잡을 가능성이 높고 오넬5969가 스토킹 당하는 것처럼 느끼는 것이 공정하다는 것을 깨달아야 한다.그래서 앞으로 크게 나아갈 길은 없지만, 나는 네메시스에게 틀리지 않은 일을 덜 하겠다고 약속하라고 요구하는 것이 이상적이라고 생각하지 않는다.적게 하는 것이 모두에게 최선일 수 있다고 지적하는 것은 훨씬 더 도움이 되는 IMO이다. YMMV. Hobit (토크) 00:13, 2021년 8월 31일 (UTC)

@호빗, 고마워, 나는 말 그대로 그들에게서 공격성을 이해하지 못했지만 나는 당신의 논리로 이성을 본다.Celestina007 (대화) 22:16, 2021년 8월 31일 (UTC)

• 내가 몇 달 전에 했던 논평과 비슷한 John B123의 마지막 쪽지를 내가 기억하지 못하는 NPR permer의 편집자에게 설명하기 위해, 나는 다시 한번 말하겠다; 만약 진정한 편집자가 새로운 페이지 검토자들이 "그들만의 것을 유지"하거나 "그들의 무게를 잡아당기는" 것이 아니라고 진심으로 믿거나 혹은 그 의견에 동의한다면, 부탁한다.너는 파마를 요청하고 도움을 청하는 것 이상을 환영한다.Celestina007 (대화) 22:16, 2021년 8월 31일 (UTC)
• 나는 John B123의 말을 지지하고 싶다.AFD의 동의율은 그곳에서 보내거나 토론하는 기사의 종류에 따라 달라진다. 나는 그의 경험이 많은 편집자들이 그곳에 보내거나 정말로 의심스럽거나 어려운 사건에 대해 논평하는 경향이 있어서, 따라서 낮은 동의율을 가질 것이다.공감대가 불분명한 걸 알고 있는 곳으로 가져가는 건 합리적이야 그걸 분명히 하고 싶은 마음에서 말이야RfA에 대한 레코드를 쌓거나 학습하는 사람들을 위한 것이 더욱 풍성하다.그들이 하고 있는 일이 이성적인 한, 누구든지 자신이 확신하지 못하는 기사를 AfD에 합리적으로 가져올 수 있다; 누구든지 사후 토론에서 합리적으로 소수 의견을 표현할 수 있다.커뮤니티만이 최종 결정을 내린다.(물론 비이성적이거나 욕설적인 공천이나 댓글은 가능하지만, afd/delete 검토 과정은 일반적으로 이를 매우 효과적으로 다룰 수 있다.) DGG (토크 ) 22:08, 2021년 8월 31일 (UTC)
• 내가 여기서 더디게 대답해서 미안하다고 말해줘, 나는 일하고 휴일이라 위키피디아에 더 적은 시간을 보내고 있어.새 페이지 등록자들이 하는 일에는 문제가 없다는 걸 확실히 하고 싶어, 잘 하고 있어.나는 이미 제거된 PROD의 수를 줄였고 최근에는 리디렉션도 하지 않았으며, 여기서 사용자들의 조언을 들을 것이다.말하자면, 나는 오넬과의 상호작용이 위키호킹으로 간주되지 않는다는 것이 분명하고 다른 사람들도 동의한다.여기서 (내가 볼 때는) 코멘트조차 하지 않았기 때문에, 이 대화는 차라리 종결되는 편이 낫다고 생각한다.행운을 빈다 네메시스AT (토크) 17:04, 2021년 9월 2일 (UTC)

  추가 논평 내 감시 목록을 확인한 후 나는 이것을 발견했고 그것을 어떻게 해야 할지 잘 모르겠다.분명히 Celestina007은 여기서 한 논평에 불만스러워하고 있으며, Onel5969에 위키백과 커뮤니티를 우회하여 "공식 보고서"(이게 뭐지?)를 제출하라고 제안하고 있다.그들이 정말 나를 편집에서 멀어지게 하려고 하는 것 같아.네메시스AT (토크) 19:30, 2021년 9월 2일 (UTC)

  나는 그녀의 논평이 만약 추가적인 문제가 발생한다면, 이 논의는 추가적인 배경으로 연결될 수 있기 때문에 오넬이 이 보고서를 제출한 것이 좋았다고 해석한다.샤즈지md (대화) 19:40, 2021년 9월 2일 (UTC)

@Schazjmd, 내 말이 바로 그런 뜻이었으니 고맙다.@네메시스AT, 당신이 이것을 어떻게 잘못 해석했는가; "현재의 합의로 볼 때, 지역사회는 NT에 어느 정도 공감하고 있는 것으로 보인다. 실망스럽긴 하지만, 만약 이것이 아무런 조치도 취하지 않고 끝난다면, 나는 솔직히 공식적인 보고서를 가지고 오거나 작성하는 것이 당신에게는 좋은 조치였다고 생각하는데, 다음 번에 그들이 당신을 괴롭히면, 당신은 항상 이 보고서에 연결해서 즉각적인 조치를 취할 것을 제안할 수 있을 것이다."말 그대로 주/주/주말 말고 다른 의미로 해석할 수 있는가?게다가, 만약 당신이 진심으로 혼란스러웠고 내가 당신에게 무언가를 설명해 줄 필요가 있었다면, 이것에 대해 상세히 설명하기 위해 내 토크 페이지에 메시지를 남겨두는 것은 괜찮았을 것이다.나는 또한 당신이 내 말을 왜곡하고 누군가가 "너희들을 무시"하려고 한다고 질타하는 것을 좋아하지 않는다. 무엇이 이것을 증명하는지?Celestina007 (대화) 20:22, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

"현재의 합의로 볼 때 지역사회가 NT에 어느 정도 공감하고 있는 것으로 보인다.실망스럽다는 거 알아." - 당신은 여기서 한 말에 좌절하거나 불만스러워 하는 것 같아."만약 이것이 아무런 조치도 취하지 않고 끝난다면, 나는 솔직히 공식적인 보고서를 가져오거나 작성하는 것이 좋은 조치였다고 생각한다." 나는 이 부분에서 "is"를 "was"로 잘못 읽었다고 생각한다.미안하지만, 내가 부분적으로 보였어. 지금 보니 네가 이 보고서를 언급하고 있는 것 같구나.미안, 그건 내 잘못이야, 나는 너의 코멘트의 의미를 바꾼 그 단어를 잘못 읽었어."다음엔 그들이 널 괴롭히면" 내가 이미 뭔가 잘못했다고 생각하겠지미안, 이 토론이 이미 진행 중인데, 네가 다른 페이지에 코멘트를 하는 게 더 안 좋았어.나는 또한 어떤 위키호킹이 일어났다는 어떠한 합의도 분명히 없기 때문에 이 보고서와 연결시키는 것이 얼마나 좋을지 확신할 수 없다.네메시스AT (토크) 20:31, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

디프에 대해서는 위에 하나를 제공했다.내가 이미 말했듯이, 나는 너의 코멘트를 잘못 읽었어.오넬에게 또 다른 보고서를 내라고 한 줄 알았는데 여기 댓글로 '박살났다'는 거야.네메시스AT (대화) 20:35, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

나는 너의 사과를 받아들인다. 그리고 그래 나는 네가 언급하고 있는 "diff"를 보았다. 그리고 나는 네가 계속 너에게 부탁했다. 그것은 나나 다른 그룹의 사람들이 너를 "scare you"를 암시하는 당신의 주장을 "diff"가 어떤 식으로든 그 주장을 입증하지 못하였다는 것을 의미하지 않지만, 괜찮아, 텍스트는 주관적이고 해석은 다소 까다로울 수 있어.결국 우리 모두는 여기 있는 모든 편집자들을 위해 직간접적으로 관련된 모든 당사자들이 이곳에서 자신들의 쿼터를 기부하는 것을 즐길 수 있고 평화롭게 할 수 있다는 것을 알기 위해 "해결"할 수 있는 무언가를 알아낼 수 있을 것이라고 One1은 일단 NPP에 휴식을 줄 것이라고 말했다.Celestina007 (대화) 22:55, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

• 오넬5969는 NPP에서 많은 일을 하고 있고, 나는 그들이 많은 일을 칭찬받아야 한다고 생각한다.그러나, 예년의 나의 인상은 그들이 빨리 움직이는 경향이 있고, 초안화 같은 것에 대해 매우 낮은 바를 가지고 있으며(그들이 주목할 만한 주제에 대해 많은 수의 적절한 기사를 초안화하거나 리디렉션하는 경향이 있다는 순결과로), 일반적으로 각 주제 영역의 편집자들의 피드백을 무시한다는 것이었다.AfD에서의 큰 오류율은 내 생각에는 큰 문제가 아니다. 왜냐하면 정의상 그 과정은 지역사회를 포함하기 때문이다.관심을 필요로 하는 것은 대담한 일방적 행동(초안화 등)인데, 이는 일반적으로 균열을 뚫고 떨어지는 경향이 있기 때문이다.– 우안팔라(대화) 00:35, 2021년 9월 3일(UTC)

  AfD에 동의한 나는 사전 논의 없이 기사를 리디렉션하는 것에 대해서도 같은 말을 하고 싶다.네메시스AT (토크) 10:31, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

WP:ATD-R에 따르면 리디렉션 전에 사전 논의가 필요하지 않다.여기서 언급되는 기사들은 일반적으로 NPP 대기열의 뒤쪽에 쌓여 있는 찌꺼기들이다.종종 그들은 개선되지 않은 채 몇 달 동안 꼬리표를 달고 있다.이 수준 이하의 기사들을 어떻게 다룰 것을 제안하시겠습니까? --John B123 (토크) 14:00, 2021년 9월 3일 (UTC)

@John B123: 만약 기사가 우리의 포함 가이드라인을 충족한다면?그런 다음 그들은 개선될 가능성이 가장 높은 기사 공간에 머무른다.정말 짧은 기사나 형편없는 기사가 훨씬 후에 크게 개선되는 것은 그리 드문 일이 아니다."그 기사가 훌륭하지 않기 때문에 간접적인"은 위키백과의 일부가 아니다.WP:임퍼펙트는.호빗 (토크) 15:48, 2021년 9월 5일 (UTC)

• @호빗:'의 요점은 꽤 잘 이해되었다.NPP 과정과 더 일반적으로 삭제 과정에 관여하는 너무 많은 편집자들은 아기 침대의 아픈 아기들을 질식시키는 것을 그들의 작업의 필수적이고 칭찬할 만한 부분으로 본다.모든 인간 지식의 합계를 조립하고 정리하는 (적용할 수 없는) 목표 oi는 지식은 중요하지 않다는 가정부터 시작하여 인간 지식의 어떤 부분이 정말로 제시할 가치가 없는지를 결정한다는 정책적 근거 없는 목표에 의해 대체되었다.빅 배드 울포위츠 (Hulaballoo라고 한다.) 2006년 이후 많은 관리자들에게 더러운 취급을 받았다. 자유를 위해 투쟁하라, 홍콩과 함께 서라! (대화) 03:51, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

• 나는 그 순간의 토론이 진로를 벗어났다고 느꼈고 내 솔직한 의견으로는 왜 이것이 아직 끝나지 않았는지 모르겠다.이것을 길게 하는 것은 우리에게 큰 해를 끼친다.Celestina007 (대화) 22:50, 2021년 9월 5일 (UTC)
• 상호 작용 금지에 대한 요청을 반대하며 나는 호빗과 우안팔라가 제공한 이성들을 그들의 응답 논평에서 지지한다.할데스 (대화) 15:44, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

교묘한 파괴 행위

브레이브펜서365(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 필터 로그 · WHOIS · RBLs · 블록 유저 · 블록 로그)는 바로 어제까지 확장 확인이 완료되는 등 한동안 편집에 나섰지만, 여전히 미묘한 반달리즘에 관여해야 하는 내용이 담겨 있다.그는 최종 경고를 여러 번 받았으나, 그 경고에는 전혀 주의를 기울이지 않았으며, 요약/대화 페이지 편집을 통해 자신의 편집을 설명하거나, 참고문헌으로 확증하지도 않았다.

차이:

• [12]
• [13]
• [14]
• [15]
• [16]
• [17]

로피에아 (대화) 06:00, 2021년 9월 4일 (UTC)

나는 1884년에서 1883년으로 변경된 맥심건에서 그들의 편집에 대해 물어보기 위해 사용자의 토크를 게시했다.그런 편집이 설명 없이 계속되면 알려줘.조누니크 (대화) 07:17, 2021년 9월 4일 (UTC)

나는 이것이 특히 많은 최종 경고 후에 일어난다면 증가하는 블록에 가치가 있는 행동이라는 것에 동의한다.— Sibbolethink^(♔♕) 21:26, 2021년 9월 5일 (UTC)

이 사용자가 레가이아플레임(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 필터 로그 · WHOIS · RBLs · 블록 사용자 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)의 속편일 가능성이 높다고 덧붙이며, 앱의 문제로 인해 복수의 최종 경고를 읽을 수 없었던 또 다른 안드로이드 사용자도 있다.나는 두 사용자 모두 대부분 총기/암호 기사를 고수하고, 조금씩 조금씩 조금씩 조금씩 늘어지고, 편집 요약/토크 페이지를 사용하는 것을 결코 귀찮게 하지 않는 등, 중복되는 부분이 상당히 뚜렷하다고 생각한다.대신 SPI에 가져가는 것이 좋을지는 확실치 않지만, 7월 15일에 레가이아 플레임이 금지된 것을 생각하면, 바로 다음날 브레이브펜서365가 계정을 만들어 편집을 시작했다.로피에아 (토크) 04:18, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

매우 파괴적인 사용자, WP:NOTHER HERE

정적 IP로 보이는 장기 NOTHERE

• 특수:기부금/77.248.85.29

적어도 1년 전 이 IP([32]; 보다 최근의 [33][34][35])에 의한 날짜 편집은 그들이 실제로 건설적으로 기여하기 위해 여기 온 것이 아니라는 것을 암시하며, 그들은 (실제 모욕과 이와 유사한 유치한 것과 함께) 다양한 사례들을 지적하는 데 상당히 관심이 있는 것 같다.랜덤캐나다어(대화/기여) 02:50, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

9월 2일 마지막 편집과 지난 달 3일 편집은 현재 내가 보기에 행정 조치를 정당화할 것 같지 않다.숨막힘(대화) 07:58, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

BLP에 대한 반복적인 비소싱 컨텐츠 - 보스니아베스트60

보스니아베스트60(토크 · 기여)은 BLP에 비협조적인 내용을 추가한 오랜 역사를 가지고 있으며, 여러 개의 경고가 그들의 토크 페이지를 어지럽히고 있으며, 불과 한 달 전을 포함해 이전에도 수없이 차단되었다.그럼에도 불구하고, 예를 들어, 그들은 계속 그렇게 한다.어떻게 해야 하는가? - 옹호, 주제 금지, 또는 BLP 위반을 무시하고 계속 방치하는 것?자이언트 스노우맨 21:06, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

불평하는 사람들은 인용 없이 사실적으로 정확한 정보를 추가하는 것으로 보인다.이것은 바람직하지 않지만, 그 정보는 정확했고 (나중에 그것에 대한 인용문을 당신 자신이 추가했다) 그렇게 개선된 백과사전이었습니다.살아 있는 사람에 대한 비소싱 콘텐츠를 추가하는 것 자체가 BLP 위반은 아니다; WP에 따르면:BLPSOURCE, 콘텐츠는 논란이 많아야 하고, 도전해야 하며, 위반이 되려면 도전할 가능성이 높다.나는 블록이나 다른 조치가 필요하다고 확신하기 위해 부정확하거나 논쟁적인 내용을 추가하는 것을 더 많이 볼 필요가 있을 것이다.숨막힘(대화) 08:05, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

끔찍한 인신공격

신데렐라(동음이의)에 대한 지속적인 파괴적 편집

드레드조나스 POV 편집

드레드조나스(대화 • 기여 • 삭제된 기여 • 핵 기여 • 로그 • 필터 로그 • 사용자 • 블록 로그)

Dreadjonas는 POV 편집의 역사를 보여주는데, 예를 들어, 이 편집에서 그들은 야만인의 침략에 대한 부활절 달걀을 가진 서양인으로 주류를 바꾸었고, 그 때 그 재료를 반영하기 보다는 인종을 기초로 근원을 공격했고, 여기서는 어떤 종류의 논점을 만들기 위해 문장을 바꾸었다.출처로부터 기사를 변경하고 있는 일련의 편집의 이 부분.2001:8003:38C0:900:59FD:742E:49BD:3BA (대화) 05:22, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

이 이용자의 기여도를 살펴보면, 거의 대부분이 공공 기물 파손이나 공공 기물 파괴에 가까운 것이지만, 그것은 정확한 사실 진술을 유사하지만 부정확한 진술로 바꾸는 것으로 구성된 은근한 종류의 기물 파괴 행위다.MLB96 (토크) 08:00, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

사용자가 한 달이 넘도록 전혀 편집하지 않았다.네이튼크스 (대화) 09:43, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

장기 공공 기물 파손자들은 장기간의 휴식에 들어갔다가 나중에 재개함으로써 공공 기물 파손 행위를 면한다.이 사용자는 분명히 WP이기 때문에 장기간에 걸친 파괴적 편집과 교활한 파괴 행위를 블록으로 다루어야 한다.NOTHERE. ♟♙ (대화) 13:09, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

블록은 징벌적이 아니라 예방적이어야 한다.숨막힘(대화) 08:06, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

나도 동의해, 하지만 네 반응이 장기간의 혼란 패턴을 어떻게 해결하는지 잘 모르겠어.♟♙ (대화) 14:08, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

반달리즘, WP:Slayyter에서의 BLP 위반

:알렉산드라보이쿠2020

IP-빠르게 이동하는 중단 편집

콜드 시즌 - 주제 금지 제안

223.38.78.0/23 및 세네갈겟

• 세네갈게트 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
• 223.38.78.0/23 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
• 2022년 FIFA 월드컵 아시아 지역 3차 예선 (토크 내역 링크 감시 로그 편집)
• 대한민국 축구 국가대표팀 (토크 내역 링크 감시 로그 편집)

이 IP 범위의 익명 사용자는 적절한 설명 없이 2022년 FIFA 월드컵 예선 – AFC 3라운드에서 소싱된 콘텐츠를 끈질기게 제거하고 있으며, 마지막 편집자의 요약은 (한국어에서 "You b*******s doing refresh"로 번역된 요약 편집)이 마지막 지푸라기였다.세네갈겟도 이 보고서에 추가했는데, 이 IP들은 비슷한 장애가 발생한 한국 축구 국가대표팀에서 공통적인 편집 패턴을 평가한 후 로그아웃된 동안 사용자 편집이 전부인 것 같다.잘렌 폴프 (대화) 15:30, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

• IP 범위가 차단됨.세네갈제트는 이미 LTA로서 한국의 위키로부터 전세계적으로 차단되어 있다.Drmies (토크) 16:49, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

여기 말고

피터 윌리엄스 2001

아만.쿠마르.골

매우 반대되는 활발한 토론에 대한 의심스러운 태그는 WP에 대한 경고에도 불구하고 스스로 돌아가지 않는다는 "의심할 것 없다"[76]는 말을 삭제했다.WNTRMT. Viewsridge(토크) 06:20, 2021년 9월 7일(UTC)

@Viewsridge: "이 페이지는 긴급한 사건들과 만성적이고 난해한 행동 문제에 대해 논의하기 위한 것이다."나는 당신이 여기 오기 전에 먼저 우리의 정상적인 분쟁 해결 절차에 따라 이것을 해결하도록 시도하라고 충고한다.~TNT(그/그들 • 대화) 18:16, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

WP:NOTHERE 188.149.107.101

188.149.107.101 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

IP는 분명히 WP이다.NOTHERE, 그가 쿠르드어로 다양한 기사를 만들려고 할 때, 임의의 '쿠르드어' 또는 그 언어를 쿠르드어로 추가한다.몇 가지 예:

'쿠르디쉬'를 덧붙이며, '참고'라고 말해 출처가 이를 지지한다고 거짓으로 주장했다.

'쿠르디쉬'를 덧붙이며, '참고'라고 말해 출처가 이를 지지한다고 거짓으로 주장했다.

'쿠르디쉬'를 덧붙이며, '참고'라고 말해 출처가 이를 지지한다고 거짓으로 주장했다.

'쿠르디쉬'가 덧붙였다.

기원전 3천년에 살았던 사람들에 대한 기사에 '쿠르디쉬'가 추가되었다.

기원전 3천년에 살았던 사람들에 대한 기사에 '쿠르디쉬'가 추가되었다.

.

.

--Historyof 이란 (대화) 22:47, 2021년 9월 4일 (UTC)

나는 이것이 WP의 분명한 사례라고 말하고 싶다.일반적으로 ANI보다 훨씬 빠르게 움직이는 AIV.— Sibbole think^(♔♕) 22:59, 2021년 9월 4일(UTC)

AIV는 왜 가능한 한 많은 장소에서 "쿠르드"를 추가하는 것이 바람직하지 않은지를 IP에 인내심 있게 설명하는 등 거의 항상 관료적인 절차를 요구한다.AIV의 입장에서는 공공 기물 파손이 아니라 콘텐츠 문제다.조누니크 (대화) 03:31, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

설명 감사합니다 — Sibbole think 18^♕):50, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

이 보고서 이후로 IP는 편집되지 않았다.문제가 다시 발생하면 나에게 알려줘.조누니크 (대화) 03:31, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

IP 편집(Great Purge)

서로 다른 IP는 다음과 같은 부적절한 편집을 반복하고 있다.

• [77]
• [78]
• [79]

• [80]

제발, 한 달 이상 그 기사를 보호해줘.--폴 시버트(토크) 18:55, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

정말 편집 요약이다.적어도 그 IP들 중 하나는 차단되어야 한다고 생각한다. --ARose Wolf 19:05, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

현재 계속 진행 중:

• [81]

--폴 시버트 (토크) 19:32, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

누군가 페이지 보호를 해줄 수 있을까?나이젤 이스 (대화) 19:38, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

위키백과 관련 웹사이트란?마치 거대한 나무 말 한 마리가 내 성벽을 향해 바퀴를 달고 트로이 도시에 온 기분이다.lol 나는 기사 보호에 동의한다. --ARose Wolf 19:42, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

마지막 반보호 기간이 2주여서 한 달 동안 반보호 생활을 하고 있다.중단이 다시 시작되면 알림컬렌렛³²⁸ 20:06, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

다양한 IP도 차단했다.컬렌³²⁸ 20:14, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC) 토론하자.

사용자:IMW1974 총 취약성/잠재적 위협

IMW1974(대화 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 차단 사용자 · 블록 로그)는 내가 이전에 거래한 적이 없는 사용자로서, 내 토크 페이지(녹색으로 강조 표시)에 위협으로 간주될 수 있는 내용을 공표했다.

왜 그래? 빌보드 핫 100년 끝자락에는 1964년 100년 끝자락에서 78번이 아니라 79번이라고 분명히 적혀 있어너 같은 병신이라도 그게 사실인지 알 때까지 계속 바꿀게. 내 일부를 원해? [강조 추가]

바보같은 패배자 멍청이 오죠조에게.

헤이 바보야! 1964년 빌보드 연말 리스트를 확인해봐.너 같은 패배자라도 79번지의 노래가 정말 날 꼬부라진 놈들 손에 잡혔다는 걸 분명히 알게 될 거야반복한다 78번가도 아니다계속 잘못 고칠 거야 계속 제대로 알아맞힐 거야 넌 분명히 생명이 없으니 하나 구해!

You Got Me(토크 히스토리 링크 시계 로그 편집)가 문제의 기사다.

• 기사 "차트 및 인증"[82]에 사용된 출처는 78[83]번으로 그 위치를 나타낸다. "해당 빌보드 탑 100 ...킨크스 부부의 'You Guys Got Me'(제78호)."
• IMW1974는 새로운 출처나 설명/편집 요약 없이 79로 변경했다.[84]
• 나는 "사용된 출처에 따라 정확했다"라는 편집 요약과 함께 원문으로 되돌렸다.[85]
• IMW1974는 새로운 출처나 설명/편집 요약 없이 79로 되돌아갔다.[86]
• 나는 "ref supply shows '78, 변경사항에는 새로운 소스가 필요하다"라는 편집 요약과 함께 원문으로 되돌아갔다.[87]
• IMW1974는 여전히 새로운 출처나 설명/편집 요약이 없는 79로 되돌아갔다.[88]
• IMW1974는 나의 토크 페이지에 위에 복사한 것을 남겼다.[89]
• 사용자:IdreamofJeanie가 내 토크 페이지에서 IMW1974의 코멘트를 되돌렸다.[90]
• 몇 가지 연구 끝에 기사에 사용된 원본이 잘못된 것을 발견하고, 사실 79번으로 보이는 새로운 것을 추가했다.[91]

IMW1974가 해야 할 일은 근원을 제공하는 것이었고 이 모든 것은 피할 수 있었다.나는 이것 이전에 IMW1974를 본 적이 없다; 나는 그들의 격발에 대한 어떠한 설명도 볼 수 없지만, 분명히 WP와 같은 협력 프로젝트에서 그것을 용인해서는 안 된다.—오조로조 (토크) 20:10, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

• 수용 불가, 31시간 차단그들의 사용자 페이지와 그들의 토크 페이지에 있는 메시지에 따르면 이것은 고립된 사건이 아니다.이반벡터 (/)^Talk_Edits 20:19, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)
  • 이 편집자는 내가 더 오랫동안 차단했을 것이기 때문에 이반벡터가 나보다 먼저 차단 버튼을 눌렀다는 것이 행운이다.편집자는 용납할 수 없는 인신 공격을 몇 차례 해왔고 2021년 6월 20일 이에 대한 경고를 받았다.그들은 또한 자신들의 뜻대로 되기 위해 전쟁을 편집하겠다고 위협한다.그리고 이것은 1960년대의 노래 차트 위치에서의 사소한 불일치에 관한 모든 것이다.말도 안 돼.컬렌³²⁸ 20:29, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC) 토론하자

검열 및 적극성

클로드 케르(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
AA2 기사의 "오타 수정"[92][93] 및 활동[94]이라는 잘못된 계략에 따라 소싱된 콘텐츠 검열에 참여하는 신규 사용자. - Kevo³²⁷ (대화) 09:13, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

우선 나는 그들에게 AA2 임의제재의 존재에 대한 경고를 주었다.다른 관리자는 자유롭게 추가 조치를 취할 수 있지만, 이 경고는 문제가 있는 추가 편집에 대해 재량적 제재에 따라 제재를 받을 수 있음을 의미한다.꿈꾸는 재즈 09:35, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

그리고 나는 그들에게 주의를 주었다.비쇼넨 tålk 21:28, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

토크:기독교인 학대

기독교인 박해(토크 히스토리 편집 보호 로그 보기 로그 보기)

얼마 전에 이것은 여기로 왔고, 막대기를 떨어뜨리는 것을 포함하는 닫힘이 만들어졌다.

그러나 막대기를 떨어뜨리지 않았고, 나는 계속 그 막대기를 떨어뜨려야 한다는 말을 듣고 있다.더욱이 같은 사용자(도미니크 메이어스)는 그러한 질문을 하지 않은 RFC에 근거한 1차 소스의 OR을 허용하는 논리[96]와 노골적인 진술[97]에 호소하기 위해 취해왔다.

그것은 지금 가식적이 되어가고 있고 잘도 멍이 들고 있다.그들은 정책이 아닌 논리에 근거하여 자신의 의견에 동의하지 않는 어떤 의견도 거부하고 있다.Slatersteven (대화) 15:00, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

RFC가 원하는 결과를 얻지 못할 수도 있다는 이유로 이 문제를 해결하려는 생각을 완전히 거부하는 것 또한 그렇다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:05, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

논리는 WP 정책에 반대하지 않고 지지한다.나는 단지 이 마지막 토론에 도움을 주기 위해 개입하고 있을 뿐이다.나는 그것을 시작하지 않았다.나는 RfC때문에 이 토크페이지에서 1등을 했다.본질적으로, 나는 편집자들에게 구체적인 내용 제안에 초점을 맞추고 WP 규칙을 넘어서려고 하는 보편적 규칙에 대한 어떠한 논의도 그만둘 것을 요구하고 있다.슬레이터스트도 WP 정책이 아닌 보편적 규칙을 계속 제안하고 있다.그가 그렇게 하는 것은 보편적 규칙에 대한 논의가 아직 진행 중이기 때문이다.도미니크 메이어스(대화) 15:14, 2021년 9월 7일(UTC){

그리고 우리는 이 [98]을 가지고 있는데, 이것은 나에 대한 코멘트로 가득 차 있을 뿐만 아니라 만족하지도 않는다.그것은 우리가 그만두라는 말을 듣고도 나를 다시 언급하는 논의를 계속하고 있다.이것은 지금 위태로운 상황에 가깝다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:50, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

그리고 이것은 [99]이다.(내가 볼 수 있는 한) wp:talk.Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

• 비록 당신이 그것을 개인화 하고 있지만, 이것은 분명히 내용상의 논쟁이다.WP:RSN을 해보는 게 어때? 이반벡터의 다람쥐(/)^trees_nuts
• 사용자:슬래터스티븐, 여기서의 이전 토론에 대한 링크가 도움이 될 것이다.필 브리저 (대화) 17:54, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

  Slattersteven이 상황을 개인화하고 있다는 이반벡터의 다람쥐의 말이 옳다."그것은 지금 그리고 잘잘못되게 굴고 있다"라는 성명은 정책이나 기사에 대해 아무런 언급도 하지 않는다.그것은 다른 편집자들을 WP의 적으로, 규칙을 어기고자 하는 사람들 등으로만 제시한다.슬레이터스트조차 콘텐츠 정책과 관련해 다른 편집자들과 의견이 맞지 않고 설득에 실패한다면 적절한 게시판에 토의를 올릴 수 있지만 여기서 그는 도를 넘었다.도미니크 메이어스 (대화) 19:43, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

• 참여하지 않으려는 토론에 핑계를 대는 것은 짜증나는 일이다.나도 그 기분은 알아. 하지만 그게 사실 네게 대답을 강요하지는 않아.내가 보기에 당신은 다른 편집자가 사용했던 "논리"라는 단어를 매우 관대하게 체리피킹하고, 그 한 단어만을 바탕으로 이야기를 전개하려고 하는 것 같다.둘 다 경험이 많은 기여자니까, 두 분 다 기본적인 정책/지침과 위키피디아의 작동 방식을 이해하고, 두 분의 의견 불일치가 이 특정한 상황에 대해 단독으로 동의하지 않는 것이라고 가정해 보는 것은 어떨까? (그리고 그런 의견 불일치는 서로의 말을 들어 문제를 해결하는 원천을 제시함으로써 해결된다.ms 다른 사람은 그들이 읽은 것으로 보고, 필요하다면 상대방이 부엌 싱크대 외에는 모든 것을 위반하고 있다는 비난보다는 제3자의 의견을 구하려고 한다.) — 빌로프 (대화) 22:21, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)
  • 그것은 내가 참여하지 않을 경우가 아니며, 우리는 막대기를 떨어뜨리라는 말을 들었다. 그리고 그것은 떨어지지 않았다.나는 그것이 나에게 "떨어지지 않는" 것으로 사용되지 않는 한 참여하게 되어 기쁘다.Slattersteven (대화) 09:15, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)
• 단지 일부 맥락을 주기 위해, 슬레이터스트 조차 이 논평은 그가 WP: 특히, 일반 규칙의 예외와 같이 좀 더 구체적인 경우에 관한 후속적인 합의에 의해 어떤 합의도 수정될 수 없다는 것을 다시 한번 보여준다.그는 그것을 깨닫지 못할 수도 있지만, 그의 언급은 수정할 수 없는 합의를 원한다는 것을 암시한다.이것은 존재할 수 없고 그는 이 점을 이해하지 못한다.이는 그가 현재 전혀 지지도가 없는 룰을 위해 원하지만 개방을 보이지 않는다는 점에서 특히 문제가 있다.이 때문에 나는 젠호크777에게 구체적인 내용에 초점을 맞춰야 한다고 제안했지만, 젠호크777 역시 그 점을 달갑게 여기지 않는다.그는 궁극적인 내용에 적용되는 공유 이해를 원한다.결과적으로, 나는 이 토크 페이지에 친구가 없지만, 나는 그 내용에 대해 어떤 식으로든 편견 없이 도움을 주기 위해 성실하게 있을 뿐이다.도미니크 메이어스 (대화) 21:47, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)
  • 이런 일을 더 이상 피하기 위해 [기독교인의 과오] 토크 페이지를 내 감시 목록에서 삭제한 나는, 여기에 있고, 그 때문에 나 자신 외에는 비난할 사람이 없다.내가 보기에 슬레이터스티븐과 도미니크 메이어스 둘 다 똑같이 어렵고 막무가내였다. 왜냐하면 이반벡터의 다람쥐가 이것이 콘텐츠 논쟁이라는 목표물이 맞기 때문이다.그것은 슬레이터스티븐의 개인적 통치를 '이유'로 적용함으로써 카르마18의 편집을 되돌리는 것에서 출발했다.그의 통치는 박해라는 단어가 근원적으로 존재하도록 요구하거나 OR로 되돌린다.나는 WP가 비록 단어 자체가 존재하지 않더라도 출처를 읽음으로써 누구나 얻을 수 있는 공통의 이해에 의해 박해를 식별하는 설명이나 정의를 허용한다고 생각한다.국무부는 매년 인권과 인권 침해에 대한 연례 보고서를 제공하지만 박해라는 단어는 결코 사용하지 않는다.어차피 콘텐츠로 이용할 수 있어야 할 것 같아.슬레이터스티븐의 법칙에 따르면, 그럴 리가 없다.이것은 해결되지 않은 채로 남아 있고, 나는 그것을 해결할 어떤 희망도 보이지 않는다, 그러므로 나는 지금 그리고 영원히 더 'gd 막대기를 떨어뜨렸다'고 나아가고 있다.IMO, 이건 그냥 닫아야 해.젠호크777 (대화) 22:55, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

    젠호크777은 내가 이미 설명했지만 그의 관점에서 다시 설명한다.나는 그가 그것을 부정적으로 보는 것이 슬프다.나는 단지 그가 구체적인 제안을 진행해야 한다고 말하고 있을 뿐이지만, 여기 있는 사람들이 테이블 위에 구체적인 내용이 없는 상태에서 전반적으로 그 문제를 해결하기 위해 그와 함께 일하기로 결정한다면, 왜 안 되겠는가.나는 그것에 근본적으로 반대하지 않는다.다만, 특히 (어떤 콘텐츠에 대해서도 적용이 가능하다) 일반적이고 특정 콘텐츠가 쉽게 예외를 제시할 수 있다는 점을 감안할 때, 원칙적으로는 개정할 수 있다는 공감대가 될 것이다.또한, 젠호크777은 마치 슬레이터스티븐의 통치가 이의를 제기할 필요가 있는 법률인 것처럼 불평한다.그것은 이의를 제기할 필요가 없다.이를 뒷받침할 공감대가 없는 것은 이미 사실이다.이것이 문제일 수도 있다.슬레이터스티븐의 통치를 뒷받침할 만한 공감대가 없다는 점은 분명하지만 안심할 필요가 있을 것이다.그는 자신의 통치에 대한 합의를 얻기 위한 부담이 슬레이터스티븐에 있다는 것을 이해하지 못할 수도 있다.그(젠호크777)는 할 일이 없다.그는 이미 기본적으로 이 규칙을 지지할 만한 의견 일치가 없다는 것을 알고 있다.도미니크 메이어스 (대화) 00:15, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

Tom.Reding의 승인되지 않은 WP 사용:MITBOT가 이의를 제기하는 대량 편집 작업 수행(동의)

• 이전 ANI: 위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive 1072 § User Tom.승인되지 않은 WP를 재가동하는 중:미트봇은 쓸모없는 일을 한다.
• 와

나는 이전의 ANI에서의 죽음의 요약과 거기에 대한 나의 논평이 상당히 포괄적이라고 생각하는데, 그래서 나는 너무 많은 것을 반복하지 않을 것이다. 그러나 여기에 간단히 문제가 있다.

1. 위키백과:봇 정책.그것은 몇 가지 목적을 가지고 있는데, 그 중 하나는 대량 편집 작업에 대한 적절한 수준의 합의가 존재하여 광범위한 혼란과 좌절을 야기하지 않도록 하는 것이다.
2. {{Authority control}}을(를) 사용하기 위해 널리 보급된 RfC가 하나 존재하며, 그것이 위키백과였다.당국은 2012년 통합 제안을 통제하고, 전기 기사에만 대량 추가를 승인했다.이 작업은 봇 계정을 사용하여 수행되었다(예: 사용자:VIAFbot) 그리고 그 중 하나는 톰의 탐이었다.봇은 승인 과정과 이러한 종류의 편집에 대한 필요성을 알고 있다는 것을 보여준다.
3. 2018년부터, 톰.레딩은 계정을 통해 {{Authority control}}}을(를) 분당 몇 개의 비율로 최소 40만 개의 기사에 추가했다.이것들은 대부분 위의 승인 범위 밖에 있다.그의 현재 승인되지 않은 업무는 모든 영어 위키백과 기사에 이 템플릿을 추가하는 것을 권장한다.이전의 ANI는 리디렉션을 포함했고, 다른 유형의 기사에 대한 논쟁도 있었다.이 MITBOT에 대한 커뮤니티의 합의는 존재하지 않는다.WP는 없다.BAG 승인.
4. 이전 ANI에서는 편집자들이 우려를 제기하고 이슈의 폭을 상세히 설명했으며, SoWhy는 사용자 토크[100][101]에 코멘트를 추가했다.Tom은.레딩의 초기 논평은 아쉬움이 많이 남았고, 그는 중단하기로 약속했고, ANI가 보관된 후 몇 주 동안 그렇게 했다.[102. 정밀 조사가 끝난 후 그는 다시 시작했고, 지금은 그 문제를 전혀 인정하지 않으려는 것 같다.

요약: 톰.레딩은 현재 승인되지 않은 대규모 WP를 운영하고 있다.MITBOT 작업.이것은 여러 편집자가 반대하는 작업이다.이전 ANI에서 먼지가 가라앉은 후, 그는 정확히 같은 편집 방식으로 그러한 정확한 편집을 다시 시작했다.톰은 편집자가 이 프로젝트에 관한 모든 기사를 수정하기로 결정하기 전에 얻어야 할 합의점을 중심으로 최종 점검을 하고 있다.템플릿 문서 페이지와 템플릿 토크 페이지는 이러한 종류의 변화에 적합하지 않으며, 에세이 이상의 지위를 갖지 않는다.

봇 정책을 준수하지 않고 합의를 구하지 않는 봇 운영자에 의해 야기되는 대규모의 소모적인 혼란을 지적하고, 유사한 사례가 ArbCom에서만 해결되는 것처럼 보인다는 사실을 지적하고, 비공식적인 해결이 이전 ANI에서 시도된 것에 주목하면서, 나는 정말로 이 문제를 여기서 어떤 식으로든 결정적으로 다룰 필요가 있다고 믿는다.이런 식의 편집이 부적절하다는 판단이 선다면 기정사실화라는 메시지를 보내는 것 못지않게 이미 편집된 편집에 대해서도 뭔가 조치가 필요하다고 본다.RowlingReader (대화) 01:21, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

톰이 하고 있는 피해는 정확히 무엇인가?WP:MEATBOT는 단순히 AWB의 와이드스케일 사용에 관한 것이 아니다; 그것은 "속도나 양을 추구하는 희생의 질"에 관한 것이 아니라, 그 희생이 "합의에 반하거나 ...의 오류를 야기하는..." 편집과 관련이 있다. 긍정적인 합의는 AWB를 실행하는데 필요하지 않기 때문에, 심지어 빠른 클립에서도, 많은 편집자들이 AWB를 실행할 필요가 없기 때문이다. 시간이 지남에 따라, 우리는 톰이 AWB를 사용하여 많은 편집을 하고 있다는 증거가 아니라 "과연"하고 있다는 문제나 현존하는 합의를 볼 필요가 있을 것이다.나는 이전의 ANI 실에서 그런 의견 일치를 보지 못했다.권한쟁의 연장선상인가.톰이 그 템플릿을 추가하고 있다는 사실이 왜 이런 편집들이 피해를 주는 것으로 여겨지는가?이 기사에 그것을 어딘가에 추가하는 것에 대해 의견이 일치하고 있는가(아마 있을 것이다)?\\ 01:40, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

나는 {{ProcrasingReader's Template}}을(를) 만든 다음 내 계정으로 봇을 운영하여 모든 영어 위키백과 기사에 추가할 수 있는가? "아니, 이 템플릿은 600만 기사에 추가할 수 없느냐?"는 긍정적인 의견의 일치가 있을 때까지 말이다.위키피디아는 삭제하는 게 좋을 것 같다.그것이 합리적이라면 봇 정책이다.MITBOT는 편집자가 "하지만 반자동화"라고 말하는 것은, 부분적으로는 누군가가 자동화된 봇을 운영하고 있는지 여부를 기술적으로 증명하는 것이 불가능하기 때문에 아무 의미도 없다는 사실에 관한 것이다.나는 톰을 믿지 않는다.레딩은 AWB의 "제출"을 40만 번 누르고 업무가 사소한 자동화가 가능할 때 페이지 하단에 {{Authority control}을 추가하기만 했다. 톰은 전에 비슷한 봇을 만들었기 때문에 알고 있다.이것은 완전히 자동화된 봇일 가능성이 높으며, 그렇게 되지 않는 것으로 위장하는 것은 어렵지 않을 것이다(임의의 지연, 임의의 시간에 매일 X시간 동안만 실행된다 등).만약 여러분이 그것이 실제로 반자동이라고 가정한다면, 중요한 질문은 그가 왜 그가 이미 코드를 가지고 있을 때 40만 번 "제출"을 누르는데 수백 시간을 낭비하고 BRFA를 제출하여 더 많은 기사를 위해 공식적으로 그것을 자동화된 모드로 운영할 수 있는 승인을 받을 수 있느냐 하는 것이다. (BAG가 그것을 승인하지 않을 것이라고 느끼지 않았다면?)

오타를 고치는 것은 몇 가지 이유로 비교가 되지 않는데, 가장 간단한 이유는 기사에 실제 철자나 문법 오류가 있어서는 안 된다는 생각이 반달족을 제외한 모든 사람들에 의해 보편적으로 받아들여지기 때문이다.이것은 '규모에 맞춰 새로운 아이디어를 구현'하는 것이 아니라 '오류 고치기'의 한 예다.RowlingReader (대화) 01:59, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

사실, 내가 "백 시간"에 대해 틀렸어.분당 6개 편집으로 나눈 40만 편집은 '제출'을 누르는 데 6만6666분이 소요된다.1111시간이야우리가 정말 탐이라고 말하는 거야?레딩은 자신이 완전히 자동화할 수 있다는 것을 알고 있는 작업에 대해 "제출"을 반복해서 누르는 데 수천 시간 이상을 소비했다고?RusingReader (대화) 02:07, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

(충돌 편집)철자 오류를 수정하는 것과 같은 것도 아니고, 방금 만든 템플릿을 대량으로 추가하는 것도 아니다.더 나아가기 전에 톰에게 두 가지 간단한 질문: 모든 기사에 그것을 추가하는 것이 목적이며, 그렇지 않다면 방법이 무엇인가?왜 봇이 아니겠어?\\ 02:09, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

• 링크: 톰.레딩(토크 · 기여)죄송합니다만 2012년보다 최근에 발생한 RfC가 있는지요?나는 탐을 조사한다고 생각한다.레딩의 기여는 기사에 {{Authority control}}이(가) 대량 추가되는 것을 보여준다.WT당 다른 대량 편집을 하고 있기 때문에 현재로서는 보기 어렵다.위키프로젝트 트리 오브 라이프/아카이브 48#대량정리 편집? (WP:TOL)그 템플릿이 기사에 대량으로 추가되어야 하는지에 대한 의견 불일치가 문제라면, 그리고 그것이 발생해서는 안 된다는 명확한 합의가 없다고 가정하면, 편집자보다는 이슈에 초점을 맞춰 널리 공지된 RfC를 개최해야 한다고 생각한다.그러는 동안, 톰.RfC가 유지되는 동안 레딩을 계속하지 않도록 요청해야 한다.조누니크 (대화) 03:49, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)
• 주요 이슈는 WP:BOTPOL은 반자동 도구 편집을 높은 비율로 다루는 것에 대해 매우 명확하지만 꽤 많은 편집자(그리고 이것은 톰에 국한된 것이 아니다).빨갱이는, 그들은 단지 최근의 짜증일 뿐이다)이것은 무시될 수 있다고 생각하는 것 같다.BAG 요청서를 제출할 필요도 없고 WP에 따를 필요도 없다.BOTRequire 등BAG의 *승인*봇도 항상 WP를 따르는 것은 아니다.또 다른 이슈인 BOTCRECTIRE는 수천 개의 기사를 대량 편집하고자 하는 편집자가 봇 요청을 제출하게 하고, 그 요청은 기술적인 측면에만 신경을 쓰는 같은 생각을 가진 봇 운영자 그룹에 의해 흔들어 통과되며 오히려 정책이 중복되게 만든다.지역사회에서 제정을 위한 합의가 이루어졌는지 확인하기 위한 점검은 거의 이루어지지 않았다.

RE Tom.reding은 특히, 그가 편집한 내용을 확인하고 있다고 말했는데, 이것은 그가 모든 것을 망칠 페이지를 리디렉션하기 위해 AC 템플릿을 추가하려는 의도를 완전히 가지고 있다는 것을 의미한다.er redirect 페이지를 보고, 템플릿 자체는 독자들에게 외부로 연결된 식별자를 지시하도록 특별히 설계되었다.AC 템플릿의 문제점은 많은 경우 하나 또는 두 개의 식별자/링크만 있을 수 있다는 것이다. (음악 브레인지가 유일한 링크인 AC 템플릿 추가에 대한 논의는 다른 곳에서 진행되었다.) 그래서 나에게 말하길, 1분에 7번 템플릿이 모두 기사에 속하는지 그리고 콘에 속하는지 확인한다고 말하는 편집자는 누구나 있다.템플릿에 연결된 텐트는 기린을 가지고 있다.

요컨대 (톰에 대한 이 논의보다) 적어도 두 가지 이상의 논의가 있어야 한다.레딩: 1. BOTPOL은 예, 서면대로 충족(또는 충족)해야 하며, BAG가 BOT 요청을 받을 때 요구사항을 완전히 이행해야 한다는 것을 명확히 해야 한다.BOT 편집자/편집자 중 상당수가 제재를 받았다면 BAG가 실제로 행동할 수 있도록 하는 대신 훨씬 더 쉬운 시간을 보냈을 것이다.자동 편집은 완전히 자동화된 봇태스크에서 많은 고속 콘텐츠 추가를 하는 편집자로 넘어갔으며, 이는 명확한 BOTPOL이 적용되어야 한다. 2.일반적으로 AC 템플릿 사용에 대한 다른 논의가 필요하다.그것은 본질적으로 독자를 위한 제한된 용도의 데이터 템플릿으로, 논란의 여지가 없을 정도로 무의미한 식별자를 많이 가지고 있을 때(아마 프람이 그것을 잘라내기 위해 포장지를 썼기 때문에 여기서 소리를 낼 수 있을 것이다) 그것은 기사를 어수선하게 만든다.자동화된 편집의 결과로 종종 'AC 템플릿 추가' 작업이 아닌 'AC 템플릿 추가' 작업으로 추가됨 - AC 템플릿 자동화기의 기본 위치는 모든 기사에 항상 적합하다는 것이다.사용자 박스 군중들이 정기적으로 논쟁하는 것과 거의 같은 방식으로.사망 시에만 의무 종료(대화) 08:11, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

• AC-on-#REDirects-ANI 이후 내가 AC를 추가한 것은 1) 활력 있는 기사 또는 2) 근대 우크라이나 ID 백과사전(P4613)이 수록된 기사 중 하나이며, #REDIRD에는 결코 없었다.

1. 중요 기사 추가는 하이퍼볼릭 @ 사용자 대화:톰.레딩#권한 관리 + 바이탈 기사?, 내가 (항상 가지고 있는 것처럼) ID가 1개 이상 있는 페이지로 제한하고, 곧 폐기될 출처를 제외함으로써 더 이상 제한한다.
2. 현대 우크라이나 ID 백과사전(P4613) 추가는 Mzajak @ Template talk:권한 제어/아카이브 12#현대 우크라이나 ID P4613 백과사전 지원 추가.

여기서 그 밖에 내가 말한 것과 관련된 것은 위의 링크나 @에서 찾을 수 있다.

• 사용자 대화:톰.레딩#리디렉션에 대한 권한 제어(MITB 주소)OT 우려)
• 사용자 대화:톰.레딩#다시 권한 제어

@Rhodendrites: 고마워. 질문에 대답하는 것: 아니, 모든 기사에 그것을 추가하는 것이 목적이 아니라 단지 ID를 표시하는 기사에만 그것을 추가하는 것이 목적이며, 만약 그것이 한 모든 것(또는 대부분의 것)이 템플릿을 추가하는 것이라면 봇이 적합할 것이다.대량의 정리 작업과 WP를 수행하고 있다.MOS는 그것과 함께 몇몇 화장품, 일부 비 코스메틱을 수정한다. 각각의 편집은 검사를 필요로 하지만 발생되는 많은 예외들 때문에 봇이 작동하게 하는 '안전한' 것이 아니다.이것은 어쨌든 과정을 느리게 하기 때문에 모두에게 윈윈(win-win)이 된다.~톰.레딩(토크 ⋅dgaf) 10:43, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

"ID를 표시하는 기사만"은 AC ID가 급증하는 방식을 고려할 때 기능적으로 모든 것이다.그리고 당신은 그 ID들이 a)유용한, b)적합한, c)신뢰성에 대한 우리의 기본적인 테스트조차 통과하는지 확인하지 않고 있다.템플리트 추가 기준 범위는 'ID가 존재하는지' 입니다.그것은 정확히 기사에 물건을 추가하는 것이 어떻게 이루어져야 하는지는 아니다.그래서 BOTPL은 대량 자동 편집을 하기 전에 합의를 필요로 한다.사망 시에만 의무 종료(대화) 10:59, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

그러나 적절성, 유용성, 신뢰성 등을 결정하는 이러한 문제들은 톰에 관한 것보다 AC와 AC 사용에 대한 의견 불일치에 관한 것이다.레딩. 우리 봇 정책은 좀 더 명확해야 해.당신은 그것이 빠른 속도로 반자동 편집에 적용되는 것은 분명하다고 말하지만, 그것이 어떻게 적용되는지는 명확하지 않다.편집에 대한 공감대가 형성되지 않고 오류가 발생하지 않으며 편집이 완전히 자동화되지 않으면 현재 언어를 기준으로 해야 할 일이 명확하지 않다.그리고 만약 있다면, 톰이 WP:4000 상단의 다른 사용자들이 정기적으로 하지 않는 일은 없다."다른 반자동 편집자가 존재한다"는 것이 좋은 이유는 아니지만, 이것은 정말로 ANI에서 보다는 봇 정책과 권한 제어로 분류되어야 할 문제처럼 보인다. \ 15:39, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

그것은 봇 정책에 대한 올바른 해석은 아니며, 만약 그렇다면 그것은 비참한 파괴적인 결과를 초래할 것이고, 여기서 문제는 톰에 관한 것이다.레딩이 편집 중이야.AC의 사용에 대해서는 별도의 논의가 필요하지만, 대부분의 편집자는 이러한 편집을 완전히 수동으로 수행하므로 편집자의 추가에 대한 책임을 지고 WP의 준수를 준수한다.NOTLINK 및 WP:EL. 대조적으로 톰.레딩의 무허가 업무는 위에서 인정했듯이 완전히 무차별적이다.RowlingReader (대화) 16:17, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

• 나는 WP의 렌즈를 통해 이것을 보는 것이 더 빛날 수 있다고 생각한다.봇 정책 대신 FAIT:집단적으로 또는 개별적으로 다수의 유사한 편집을 하고 있으며, 그러한 편집이 논란이 되거나 논란이 되는 것으로 알려진 편집자들은 토론을 통해 분쟁을 해결하려고 시도할 것으로 예상된다.톰의 편집이 논란이 되었기 때문에, 나는 그가 AC 템플릿의 추가가 논란의 여지가 없는 기준에 대한 합의가 확인될 수 있을 때까지 잠시 멈춰야 한다고 생각한다.콜린 M (토크) 16:26, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

• 콜린 M이 이미 지적했듯이, WP보다는 다음과 같다.MITBOT, 나는 여기서 진짜 이슈는 WP라고 생각한다.FAITACCOMMSI (관련은 있지만)톰은 그들의 편집이 논란의 여지가 있다는 것을 알고 있기 때문에, 그들은 너무 많은 편집본을 만드는 것을 중단하고 긍정적인 합의를 얻어야 한다; 단지 아주 많은 기사로 빠르게 바꾼다고 해서, 논쟁의 여지가 있는 변경을 (효과적으로) 추진하는 것은 적절하지 않다.반대자가 해야 할 일은 무엇인가? 통과해서 수동으로 되돌리는 것?그렇게 많은 기사를 통한 대규모 편집전이 우리가 장려하고 싶은 것인가?만약 그렇지 않다면, 우리는 명백하게 논란의 여지가 있는 질량 편집을 막아야 한다; 분명히 WP:수천 개의 기사에 BRD를 한 번에 적용할 수 없다. --조 (대화) 16:59, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

"반대하는 사람은 무엇을 해야 하는가? - 각각의 것을 수동으로 되돌리는가?"나는 그것을 7월 중순에 50번 정도 했다.Tom.Reding은 자동화를 사용하여 다시 실행/반복했다.그래서 너의 질문에 대한 답은 '젠장 모두'이다.대량 자동 편집이 실행되기 전에 합의해야 하는 BOTPOL의 목적의 일부는 합의할 수 없는 Fait Provali 상황을 방지하기 위한 것이다.문제는 대량 자동 편집을 하는 사람은 경쟁 편집한 편집 내용을 거의 정리하지 못할 것이고, 필요한 기술을 가진 사람들은 대개 그렇게 하는데 관심이 없는 다른 봇 운영자들이다.대량 저작권 문제의 발생과 마찬가지로, 다른 사용자들이 편집한 많은 부분을 정리하려는 의지는 관리자 풀 사이에 널리 존재하지 않지만(그리고 왜 편집한 내용이 지루한지), 편집자들을 차단하고 그들이 스스로 편집하는 것에 동의할 때까지 계속 차단하려는 의지도 아니다.사망 시에만 의무종료(대화) 17:26, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

• AC와는 관련이 없지만, 여기 보면, 톰.레딩은 분당 20개 이상의 속도로 편집했다.편집한 내용 자체에 대해서는 의견이 없지만, 최근 변경사항이 범람하지 않도록 봇 플래그 계정으로 편집하는 것이 좋다.이러한 편집 내용을 봇 계정을 통해 전달하면 WP는 다음과 같이 된다.RCP가 더 쉽다.BAG는 보통 이와 같은 소규모 작업을 신속하게 승인한다(예:ಮಲನಾಡ್್್್ ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ((토크) 05:49, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)
• 이상하게도 되돌린 내 코멘트 복원: * 내가 톰에게 한동안 작업한 프로젝트인 바이탈 아티클에 AC 템플릿을 추가해 달라고 요청했다는 것을 덧붙이고 싶었을 뿐인데, VA가 AC를 가질 것이라는 것이 타당하기 때문이다.하이퍼볼릭(대화) 18:54, 2021년 9월 7일(UTC)
• 우리는 다시 교착 상태에 빠진 것 같다.반드시 의견 불일치로 인한 것은 아니지만, (내가 읽은 바에 따르면) 우리는 기본적으로 이전 ANI에서 했던 것과 같은 결론에 도달했다(이러한 편집은 승인 없이는 일어나지 않아야 한다는 것이다).우리가 이미 시도했고 결국 두 달 만에 여기로 돌아왔다는 것만 빼면 말이야.그럼, 이제 어쩌지?RodelingReader (대화) 11:22, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

샘소나이트 맨, 다시 앨리샤에서 (앨범)

이전에 동일한 기사의 편집 전쟁을 위해 이 게시판에서 보고되었으며, 콘텐츠 분쟁에 대한 논의에서 내 요점을 포함하지 않았음을 관리자가 확인한 바, 이번에는 해당 기사의 토크 페이지에서 이 줄기에서 보고한다.WP를 준수하지 않음:BRD 역시 타협에는 관심이 없는 것으로 보인다.다음과 같이 회전의 확산:

• 2021년 9월 5일 08시 50분
• 2021년 9월 5일 13시 52분
• 2021년 9월 8일 08:26
• 2021년 9월 8일 08시 27분

피오트르 주니어 (토크) 16:58, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

나는 변화를 논의하기 위해 시간과 시간을 벌려고 노력했지만 소용이 없었다.샘소나이트 맨 (토크) 17:44, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

의논해 보셨어요?어떻게 토론하려고 하는가?의논하든지 하지 않든지 둘 중 하나야.만약 당신이 대화를 열었다면, 왜 멈추었는가.공감대가 형성되거나 공감대가 형성되지 않는 한 토론은 종료되지 않는다.볼드 편집으로 시작하셨습니다.그 편집은 리버스였습니다.다음 단계는 토론이다.의견 일치가 당신의 편집에 유리하지 않으면 편집 내용을 다시 추가할 수 없다.당신이 할 수 있는 유일한 것은 당신의 편집이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에 의해 뒷받침된다는 것을 지역사회를 납득시킨 다음 합의된 결정을 기다리는 것이다.논의 시간 제한은 없다. --ARose Wolf 18:27, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

@AROse Wolf 기사의 토크 페이지를 읽어 보셨습니까?내가 편집한 내용은 소식통에 의해 뒷받침되었다.샘소나이트 맨 (토크) 13:16, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

샘소나이트 맨, 너 WP:BRD 읽어봤니?편집이 취소된 경우 어떤 옵션이 선택되어 있는지 이해하시겠습니까?당신의 편집이 합법적이라고 믿는다고 해서 그 과정을 회피할 수는 없다.일단 논란이 되고 나면, 유일한 희망은 토크 페이지, 즉 기간에 대한 지역사회의 합의뿐이다.당신이 그것을 당신의 기사 버전으로 되돌리면 당신은 전쟁을 편집한다. --ARoseWolf 13:29, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

이 편집자는 분명히 그가 동의하지 않는 기사를 편집한 것에 대해 나를 차단하려고 한다.지금까지 그는 내가 편집한 모든 것을 되돌렸다.샘소나이트 맨 (대화) 17:51, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

너는 이 분쟁을 처리한 방식과 함께 다른 청구를 하지 않은 것 같다.당신은 타협과 이해에 대한 나의 능력을 다 써버렸다.나는 여기 치료를 바라고 있다.이 시점에서 블록이 필요하다면 그렇게 하십시오.피오트르 주니어 (토크) 18:01, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

사실, 나 자신을 혹독하게 대하면서 다시 되돌릴 수 있다.나는 특히 편집자가 제기한 녹음 기간과 관련된 최근의 편집으로 타협했다.피오트르 주니어 (토크) 19:04, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

새로 추가된 소스를 제공해 준 편집자에게 감사해야겠다.그 물건은 그것에 더 좋다.피오트르 주니어 (토크) 19:26, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

@삼소나이트 맨: 난 네가 전쟁을 편집하는 사람이라고 생각해.앨리샤는 특집 기사로, 즉 높은 품질의 출처를 가지고 있어야 하며, 당신이 추가한 출처는 품질이 좋지 않다는 것을 의미한다.또한 기사는 그대로 괜찮으니 바꿀 필요가 없다.TheAmazingPeanuts (대화) 21:40, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

@TheAmazingPeanuts 나는 전쟁을 편집하는 사람이 아니다.그 물건은 어떤 방법으로도 '괜찮다'는 것이 아니다.앨범의 토크 페이지를 읽어보십시오.이 편집자는 기사 대부분을 썼다는 이유만으로 기사를 경찰에게 넘겨주고 자신이 동의하지 않는 모든 편집을 되돌릴 수 있다고 생각한다.내가 제공한 모든 출처는 믿을 만했다.지금까지 학생 신문 기사에 대한 링크가 "과목의 추가적이고 상세한 과로"를 제공하지 않았다는 것만 설득할 수 있었다.그는 WP의 심각한 경우다.자기행동! 샘소나이트 맨(토크) 13:16, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

와우, 정말 못됐군"어쨌든?"피오트르 주니어 (토크) 14:12, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

피오트르 주니어, 제발 그거 쳐봐.편집 내용에 원하는 내용을 모두 언급할 수 있지만, 그들을 비하하는 이름으로 부르지 마십시오.그건 정말 도움이 안 돼고마워 --ARoseWolf 16:26, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

고통스러웠지만, 여전히...피오트르 주니어 (토크) 16:35, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

@ARose Wolf: 그는 여전히 전쟁 ([103])을 편집하고 있다.피오트르 주니어 (토크) 17:14, 2021년 9월 16일 (UTC)

사용자:GovGuide에서 자주 부주의하게 편집하고 대화에 응답하지 않음

GoverGuide는 몇 차례 [104][105][106]를 중단하라는 요청을 받았음에도 불구하고 기사 소개를 다시 작성하고 빠른 속도로 오류를 소개하고 있다.그들의 토크 페이지는 의식적인 질문/불만의 연속이며 정보 페이지를 다시 쓰고, 설명 없이 템플릿을 던지거나, 헛소리를 삽입하는 등의 일을 하고 있다.그들은 무언가를 이해하지 못하거나 혹은 무언가를 이해하기를 거부하고 있다.인용 (토크) 04:08, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

누군가 내가 했던 모든 일을 바꿔버렸어 미친 짓이야

그들은 시작한 만큼 갑자기 멈춘 것 같다.현재로서는 행정 조치가 시기상조인 것 같다.숨막힘(토크) 07:56, 2021년 9월 8일(UTC)

숨이 막힐 정도로, 그들은 멈추지 않았다.이 모든 편집과 여전히 거칠고 파괴적인 형식, 영어의 서투른 명령, 이상한 게시물들이 있다: 아니, WP:CIR은 여기에 적용된다.여기에 있는 그들의 직책도 모자이크(고브게이드의 이상한 서브섹션 제작 습관에 의해 홍보됨)가 되고, 한 개의 직책이 서명되지 않은 것에 의해 도움이 되지는 않았지만 이해할 수 없는 것이다.Drmies (대화) 15:32, 2021년 9월 8일 (UTC)

어제 오전 4시 36분 이후로 사용자가 편집을 하지 않고 있다.차단하는 것은 징벌적이지 않고 예방할 것이 없기 때문에 나는 그들을 차단하지 않는다.숨막힘(대화) 10:03, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

차단만 하는 게 아니라...Drmies (토크) 15:03, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

+1 ♟♙ (대화) 17:11, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

민족적 질식, 대량 POV 편집 및 재검증

토굴 R (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 페이지 이동 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)

• 논쟁적인 영역에서 소싱된 내용의 제거[107], [108], [109].아르메니아에서 가장 오래된 통신사 아르메니아 소식통
• AA 주제에서 유사한 대량 파괴 편집, 몇 가지: [110], [111], [112], [113], [114], [115], [116]
• 토론회를 열지 않고 AA 지역에서 재회수하며, WP에 통지한다.BRD, [117], [118]
• 보고원료가 아르메니아어(국가 btw에서 가장 오래된 것)라는 이유만으로, 그들의 파괴적 편집으로 직면했을 때 민족적, 기타 질책을 던지고 공식 MFA 진술을 무시하는 행위: [119], [120] 전체 토론: [121]
• 우리가 말하고 있는 대로 계속 가고 또 가고 있다.

그들의 POV 편집, 후속 블라인드 리버팅 (WP와 같은 관련 지침을 통보받은 경우에도:BRD), 그리고 인종적 질식(아르메니아/아메니아인에 대한 증오라고 말할 수 있음)의 캐스팅은 사용자가 WP임을 시사한다.NOTHERE. ZaniGiovanni (대화) 11:11, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

내가 너에게 보고하려고 하기 전에 보고해줘서 고마워.나는 기사에서 소스가 없는 정보를 삭제했고, 나는 나의 편집된 내용을 전적으로 지지한다. 슈샤 기사에서, 나는 우리가 그 주장에 대해 이야기할 수 있는 제목을 만들었다.네가 과장하는 것처럼 거기엔 파괴적인 행동은 없어.네가 너의 의견이 어떻든 난 상관 없다고 말하긴 했지만.이런 유형의 진술은 유익한 토론으로 이어질 수 없다.여기 규칙에 어긋나는 몇 가지 반전이 있다: [123][124][125][126].다시 한 번, 나는 나의 수정 사항을 지지한다. 따라서 당신의 비소싱 콘텐츠의 반환은 규칙에 어긋난다. — 토굴 R (토크) 11:18, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

최소한 최소한의 정도만 하고 정확한 차이를 연결해서 사람들이 네가 무슨 말을 하는지 알 수 있게 해.내가 친절하게도 편집 작업을 중단하고 집중하라고 암시한 후, 내 예상 민족성[127]을 두 번 연속해서 가져온 것에 대한 나의 대답은 [128], [129]이었다. 그런데도 너는 계속 [129]를 고집했다.기고자가 아닌 내용에 대한 코멘트.

여기 규칙에 어긋나는 당신의 몇 가지 반전은 [149] [150] [151] [152]

어떤 규칙인지 설명해줄래?"출처가 아르메니아인"이라는 이유만으로 Artach MFA 공식 문구를 삭제한 위의 예와 같은 또 다른 POV가 아니라는 것을 내가 어떻게 알 수 있을까?따라서 WP에 의해 내가 당신을 설명하고 되돌린 이유는 다음과 같다.BRD, 하지만 내가 널 되돌린 모든 기사에 토의도 안하고 넌 날 되돌렸어백과사전을 만들러 온 건 아닌 것 같은데.자니지오바니 (대화) 11:34, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

우선, ZaniGiovanni는 위키피디아를 몇 년 동안 해왔으니, 내 활동을 확인해줘.나는 논란의 여지가 있는 사람은 아니지만, 이 경우 당신의 말투("도대체", "상관없어")는 그 과정을 망친다.너의 이타심은 너의 관점에 역할이 있어, 슬프지만 사실이야.아르메니아인이라면 아르메니아를 지지한다.출처에 대해서는 추측이 아닌 것으로, 출처(이 경우: 진술)에 정확한 이름이 포함되어 있지 않으면, 그것을 기사에 추가할 수 없다(이 경우 마다지즈, 슈샤 등).전쟁으로 고통받은 국민을 구제하기 위한 발언일 뿐, 그것뿐입니다.당신의 반향 ([149] [150] [151] [152])은 절대적으로 틀렸다.첫째, NKAO는 아제르바이잔 SSR에 위치해 있었다.우리는 기사에서 출생지를 언급하고, 그 시대에 존재했던 세부사항을 수정한다.토굴 R (토크) 11:43, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

@토그룰 R: [i]아르메니아인이라면 아르메니아를 지지한다는 것은 절대 사실이 아니다.믿기 힘들겠지만, 사람들은 그들의 고국에 대해 미묘한 감정을 가지고 있을 수 있다.나는 네가 그 진술에 동의할 것을 강력히 추천한다.<s></s>그 주위에–MJL ※Talk ^☖– 15:51, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

그리고 아르메프레스도 마다지즈, 슈샤나 다른 곳에는 언급하지 않았다. [130]그래서 이 경우에는 검증이 실패한다.이 언급은 Artsakh 기사 안에 추가될 수 있다. "Artsakh 영토는 아제르바이잔에 의해 점령된 것으로 간주된다"는 언급이 있을 뿐, 다른 것은 없다 — Toghrul R (talk) 11:30, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

중지하십시오. 이곳은 내용을 토론할 수 있는 장소가 아닙니다, 위키백과를 참조하십시오.ANI_advises(실패한 기사의 토크 페이지에서는 이렇게 했어야 했다.여기서 문제는 당신의 편집 행동과 WP 위반이다.ASPERSions, WP:BRD, WP:EW, WP:DE, WP:컨센서스. ZaniGiovanni (대화) 11:39, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

문제의 근원은 그 인용과 당신의 거짓된 반전에서 나온 것이므로 내용을 논의하지 않고는 유죄를 판가름할 수 없다.토굴 R (토크) 11:44, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

내 답장을 주의 깊게 읽거나 관련 지침 중 어떤 것도 읽지 않는 것 같아.자니지오바니 (대화) 12:10, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

나는 이미 그 가이드라인을 알고 있다.나의 경우, 나는 편집한 것을 완전히 정확하게 해 놓았고 그것을 고수했다.— Toghrul R (토크) 12:15, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

토그룰 R "당신의 식견(SP)은 슬프지만 사실인 것 같다. 아르메니아인이라면 아르메니아를 지지해 주는 거야."그것은 위험한 선례다.특정 민족을 가진 사람이 중립적이지 않은 POV를 제시하지 않고서는 자신의 민족성이나 관련 기사를 편집할 수 없거나 또는 심지어 그들의 민족성 때문에 COI를 가질 수도 있다고 제안하는 것 같다.여기 위키피디아에서 민족성을 추측하려고 하거나, 그렇다고 믿어도 역할을 한다고 가정해서는 안 된다. --ARoSE Wolf 12:28, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

아로세늑대, 나도 알아, 하지만 불행히도 그게 문제의 핵심이야나라와 국민 사이의 분노가 절정에 달해 있어서 그의 반전은 내 책에서 충분히 이해할 수 있다.가장 작은 세부사항 등을 찾는다.그런데 기사를 편집할 때마다 다른 사람에게 공격받는 느낌이 든다.대부분의 경우 나는 그들의 사용자 페이지를 확인하는데, 그것은 그들이 언급된 이타성에 속한다고 말한다.백과사전에서 이런 얘기를 하고 싶지도 않고, 미안한 생각이 들지도 않지만, 엔위키뿐 아니라 다른 플랫폼에서도 상황이 그렇다.— Toghrul R (토크) 12:42, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

토굴 R, 그건 변명이 아니야.당신이 편집자의 의도를 파악하기 위한 수단으로 그것을 검색한다는 사실이 내 생각에 골치 아픈 일이다.선한 믿음이 선택이 아니라고 가정하는 것은 민족성에 근거하여 나쁜 믿음을 가정하는 것은 아니다.그것은 위키피디아의 핵심 원칙에 위배된다.만약 당신이 지침과 원칙을 알고 있었다면 당신은 그것을 알아야 한다.이는 단순한 콘텐츠 문제에서 기이하고 우려되는 것으로 변질되었다. --ARoseWolf 13:20, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

아로세늑대 내가 처음부터 갖고 있는 의도는 현실의 변조를 없애려는 것인데, 심지어 사용자로부터 어떤 의견이 나오든 간에 이 문제에 대한 동의를 얻을 수 없게 만들 수 있다.나는 그의 의사에 반하는 말을 한 적이 없는데, 민족성 때문에 신앙이 나쁘다는 말은 하지 않았다.그런 편집(반복)을 하는 것은 이해할 수 있다고 했다.— Toghrul R (토크) 13:31, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

나는 이미 회신의 맥락을 디프스(Here again)와 함께 보여 주었다 [131].그러나 당신은 나나 나의 주장을 경시하기 위해 무언가를 '클릭'하려고 한다.나는 너의 인종적 열망은 신경 안 써.커뮤니티가 "드라마"(어제 배운 것처럼, 이 게시판이 어떻게 묘사되는가)로 바쁘다고 해서 맥락 없는 당신의 계속적인 반복이 눈에 띄지 않게 되는 것은 아니다.자니지오바니 (대화) 13:52, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

토그룰 R, 당신은 그들의 반전을 "반달리즘"이라고 언급하셨습니다.어떻게 그게 나쁜 믿음이 아니겠어?반달리즘은 여기서 가장 심각한 불신의 원인 중 하나이다.당신은 바로 이 토론에서 그들의 민족성을 가정하여 이 결론에 도달했음을 인정했다. --ARoSe Wolf 13:59, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

@AROse Wolf: 응, 그랬어.그러나 그것은 그 사람 때문이 아니라 되돌림 그 자체였다.그것은 꽤 오해의 소지가 있다.— Toghrul R (토크) 14:04, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

편집자가 아르메니아 사람이고 이 문제에 대한 그들의 견해에 동의하지 않기 때문에 우리는 계속 여기에 갈 필요가 있는가 아니면 단지 당신이 그의 편집자를 목표로 삼았고 그들을 반달리즘이라고 부를 수 있는가?네가 표적을 이동시키려고 하는 방법을 보여주는 또 다른 전시회로 여기 두고 갈게.만약 편집자나 그들의 민족성에 관한 것이 아니라면, 왜 이렇게 말할까, 그렇다, 그 민족성은 당신의 반달리즘 편집의 정착에 큰 영향을 끼친다.--ARoseWolf 18:23, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

나는 이미 그 가이드라인을 알고 있다.

오, 정말 그렇다면 WP를 위반하고 있다는 것을 알아야 한다.BRD, WP:오누스, WP:컨센서스.당신이 여러 페이지에 걸쳐 편집한 파괴적 편집은 이미 WP에 의해 최소한으로 합의를 보았다.따라서 나는 합의/안정된 버전으로 되돌아간다.위의 차이에서 알 수 있듯이, 대부분의 편집 내용은 아르메니아/아메니아어 관련 페이지에 있는 비소싱 추가 사항이었습니다.당신이 되돌릴 때(논쟁적인 글에서 전형적으로), 당신의 변화에 대한 합의를 대화로 얻는 것은 당신에게 달려 있다.내가 널 다시 쓴 모든 글에서 넌 실패했어 그리고 나중에 다시 쓴 글들로 편집했지당신의 기여 이력은 (위에서 언급된 차이와 같이) 예시로 가득 차 있다 [133].

더욱이 WP의 위반은 다음과 같다.개인적이고 캐스팅적인 윤리 및 "반달리즘"에 대한 열망 [134][135].일부 인용문:

• Chipmunkdavis, ZaniGiovanni는 아르메니아인이기 때문에 이 문제에 대한 그의 변호는 상당히 이해할 수 있다.일반적으로 아르메니아는 아제르바이잔이 주장하거나 점령한 잃어버린 지역을 언급함으로써 시민들을 진정시키려고 한다.실제로는 아제르바이잔에 의해 (탈사실과 탈주르 둘 다) 통제되고 있기 때문에 아르메니아 언론이 말하더라도 그 나라는 아제르바이잔만이 되어야 한다.
• 그래, 그 민족성은 당신의 반달리즘 편집의 정착에 큰 영향을 끼친다.위키피디아는 중립적인 출처를 바탕으로 한다(현지 출처가 필요하지 않은 경우).소위 Artsakh MFA라고 불리는 사람들은 어떤 말이든 할 수 있다. 그들은 심지어 이 땅을 잃어버리지 않았다고 부를 수 있다. 하지만 현실과 제3자 소식통들은 그렇지 않다고 말한다.

FYI,

1) 내가 아르메니아인(혹은 그 문제에 대한 어떤 국적자인지 알 길이 없었으며, 당신은 자동적으로 자신의 거대하고 완전한 WP를 상정하고 캐스팅했다.OR 질식

2) 편집은 하지 않았고, WP에 의해 당신의 파괴적 편집과 소싱된 내용 제거/출처 없는 추가:BRD는 여전히 나를 되돌렸고, 토론의 개시를 거절했다.지금까지 당신이 열었던 유일한 토론은 Talk:Shusha#Country_섹션, 내가 당신을 되돌리지도 않은 곳[136] (그리고 토론 주제 또한 다른 것 같지만, 다시 POV에 초점을 맞춘 것 같다)

3) 관련 지침을 알고도 여전히 편집 접근에서 잘못된 행위가 보이지 않는다는 것을 스스로 인정하고 있으므로 백과사전을 짓기 위해 이곳에 온 것이 아니라고 가정하는 것도 무리가 아닐 것이다.자니지오바니 (대화) 13:02, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

이것은 통제불능이 되고 있지만, 나는 당신의 편집의 성질 때문에 당신의 비위를 맞추었다고 언급했고, 그리고 국가들 사이의 명백한 갈등이 여기서 일어나서는 안 된다는 것을 보여주기 위해서였다.난 위키피디아에 찬성하지 않아, 한번도 반대해 본 적이 없어.게다가, 그 기사들에 어떤 비협조적인 정보도 추가하지 않았지만, 그것들을 제거했고, 이미 여러 번 언급했었다.되돌리는 것도 편집 과정의 일부로서, 제공된 데이터에 동의한다는 것을 의미한다.나는 중립적인 기사를 만들어 왔는데, 이쪽에 있는 풍경은 조금도 말하지 않으려고 내게 꽤 신경을 쓰게 되었다.— Toghrul R (토크) 13:26, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

• Toghrul R, 어떻게 WP를 위반했는지 알 수 없다.이 차이에 대한 BRD? --ARose Wolf 13:43, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

  ARose Wolf는 실례지만 그렇지 않다.내가 설명할게.하드루트 지역은 다르다, 아르타흐의 사단 내에 있었다.아크나크부르는 1993년 마을을 점령한 후 정착지에 붙여진 이름이었다.그래서 1993년부터 2020년까지 나는 주어진 분할에 동의할 수 있지만 1930년 동안 이름은 Ağbulaq였고 Hadrut이 아닌 Hadrut 구역 내에 위치했다.나고르노카라바흐 자치주, 아제르바이잔 SSR, 소비에트 연방 등이 나머지를 따른다.그는 아크나크비우르, 하드루트, 나가노노 카라바흐로 되돌아갔는데, 그것은 잘못된 것이다.나가노 카라바흐는 1930년에 행정 구역이 아니었지만 나가노 카라바흐 자치 주(州)는 행정 구역이었다.건배 — 토굴 R (토크) 13:52, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  왜 그 중 하나가 BRD와 관련이 있는가?넌 변화를 만들었고, 되돌아가서 그 변화를 복구했어.데카우사 (대화) 13:55, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  @DeCausa와 ARoSe Wolf: 그가 되돌린 것이 거짓 정보로 이어졌기 때문이다.이 차이와 이 차이도 마찬가지야.사용자는 아무 이유 없이 아제르바이잔이라는 단어를 삭제하지만, 그 단어가 있어야 한다.— Toghrul R (토크) 14:02, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  (비관리자 의견)그렇다면 단순히 되돌리기를 다시 되돌리는 것이 아니라, 초기 변경을 한 편집자(BRD의 "B")로서 왜 그것이 서야 하는지를 논의하기 위한 책임이 당신에게 있다.만약 당신이 그 정보가 정말로 거짓이라고 믿는다면, 당신의 입장을 확인하고 변화를 논의하기 위한 출처를 제공하라.𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘX 14:05, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

  @Graple X: 행정 부처는 내 의견으로는 인용할 필요가 없다.이미 관련 기사에 적혀 있어 독자는 행정 사슬을 볼 수 있다.그런 변화를 만들면서 그것이 본래의 의도였다.— Toghrul R (토크) 14:09, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  모든 정보는 특히 논쟁의 여지가 있거나 도전받을 가능성이 있다고 생각되는 경우 인용문을 필요로 하며, 편집자들은 그 추가가 명백하게 정보에 도전하고 있기 때문에 검증의 필요성이 명확하다.𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘᴇ X 14:11, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

  왜냐하면 그가 되돌아온 것이 잘못된 정보로 이어졌기 때문이다.

  아 그래, 물론 "거짓 정보"를 되돌리는 것.우린 다시 돌아가겠지만, 먼저,

  내 생각에 넌 지금 이 시점에서 듣지 않는 것 같아.내가 널 돌려줬어, 오늘 기사가 너에 의해 수정/편집되었어.따라서 대화를 시도하지 않고 나중에 재반복하는 것은 실제로 WP이다.EW, 그리고 WP:BRD의 명백한 위반.

  편집 내용 및 "거짓 정보 되돌리기" 관련:아제르바이잔 SSR과 이 사람이 서로 해야 할 일은 무엇인가 [137]?1998년의 그들의 생년월일을 읽었니?아제르바이잔 SSR은 그 때쯤이면 이미 사라진 지 오래였다.그 기사의 편집은 어떻게 개선되었니?왜 토의도 없이 다시 나를 되받아쳤니[138]?이것은 혼란과 분명한 POV에 지나지 않았고, 나는 여기서의 당신의 끈질긴 고집 때문에 당황스럽다.

  이 모든 콘텐츠 문제를 논하는 것은 옳지 않다고 느껴지는데, 이 문제는 기사의 토크 페이지 중 어느 한 곳에서나 했어야 했다.편집 전쟁을 하고, 질투를 하고, 여기에 와서 내용을 토론하는 거야?뭐라고? 자니지오바니(토크) 14:25, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

• (비관리자 의견)@DeCausa, ARoSewolf, 그리고 Graple X: 모두 동의한다.사용자:Toghrul R, 당신의 행동은 BRD를 위반하는 기사에 걸친 당신의 행동, 당신이 그들을 모욕하고 그들의 국적을 호출할 때 사용자들에 대한 당신의 행동, 그리고 당신이 얼마나 많은 사용자들이 당신에게 그것을 지적하는지에 상관없이 당신이 틀렸다는 것을 완강히 거부하면서 당신의 행동을 포함한다.네가 잘못했는지는 의논할 필요가 없어, 이미 해결되었으니까.문제는 오히려 이것이다: 만약 당신이 위키피디아를 계속 편집할 수 있다면, 당신의 행동은 어떻게 변화할 것인가?제피즈 (대화) 14:14, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  @DeCausa, ARoSewolf, Graple X, Jeppiz: 핑의 핑은 변명하지만, 나는 결코 다른 사람의 국적을 비난하지 않는다.반전의 이유는 이것 때문이 아니라 위키다타에서도 널리 사용되고 있는 행정 구역 때문이었다.나는 다른 위키의 관리자인데, 다른 언어로 된 기사도 만들어.그 중에는 아르메니아 사람들도 있다.이것이 내가 여기서 자유로워지는 것을 증명해 주는가?물론 그렇지 않습니다.위키피디아의 원칙과 여기서 내린 결정을 존중하지만, 만약 사용자가 당신의 의견이 무엇이든 상관하지 않는다고 말한다면, 토론하는 것은 의미가 없다고 생각하므로, 그대로 두고 휴식을 취하겠다.— Toghrul R (토크) 14:24, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  편집한 내용을 봤는데 아르메니아/아제르바이잔 기사에 대해 일련의 대규모 변경 작업을 하고 있더군.그것은 시작하기에 좋지 않은 생각이다.그러나 나는 당신의 접근방식이 당신이 여러 번 그랬던 것처럼 되돌아갔을 때 되돌아가는 것이라고 본다.이것은 단지 OP만이 아니라 다른 것들도 여기에 있다.그만하고 그럴 때 토크 페이지로 가야 해.옳은 것은 편집-전쟁을 방어하는 것이 아니다.그리고, 만약 그들이 반달리즘을 편집하지 않는다면, 그리고 다른 사람들의 민족성에 대해 말하는 것을 그만둬라.그런 맥락에서 계속하면 막힐 것이다.데카우사 (대화) 14:31, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  커뮤니티에 주목하라 - 이것은 세 번째 사용자들이 문맥에서 인용구를 꺼내서 그것에 근거한 나의 주장을 경시하려고 하는 것이다.세 번째 컨텍스트:

  그들의 민족적 열망 [139], [140]이후, 나는 그들의 편협한 의견에 개의치 않고 내 행동의 정확한 이유와 관련 지침을 보여주었다고 정확히 말했다.자, [141]문맥에서 벗어난 인용문만 제공할 것이 아니니 직접 보고 판단할 수 있다.자니지오바니 (대화) 14:46, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  데카우사 나는 그것에 대해 이야기하지 않는다, 토론에서 언급했기 때문에 나는 내 의도가 나쁘지는 않다는 것을 분명히 해야 했지만, 명확한 지식을 제공하기 위해서 — 토굴 R (토크) 14:36, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  그것은 전혀 사실이 아니다.CMD의 토크 페이지에서 먼저 꺼냈잖아.그리고, btw, OP는 "네 의견이 어떻든 상관없다"는 당신의 말에 대해 "네, 민족성은 당신의 반달리즘 편집의 정착에 큰 영향을 끼친다"고 답했다.OP의 반응은 정당하다.데카우사 (토크) 14:51, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

  (비관리자 논평) 비협조적으로 들릴 수도 있고 확실히 더 좋게 들릴 수도 있지만, 궁극적으로 기사 내용에 관한 한, 여러분의 의견이나 내 의견, 또는 다른 편집자의 의견 등 그 어느 누구도 검증가능하지 않고, 신뢰할 수 없으며, 적절하지 않다.자, 만약 당신이 당신의 입장을 검증하는 적절한 소싱을 제시했고, 회심의 편집자가 이것에 대해 논의하기를 거부한다면, 당신은 BRD 사이클에 참여하지 않는 것에 대해 그들을 끌어낼 권리가 있을 것이다. 하지만 당신은 여전히 그들이 관여할 것이라고 생각하든 말든 상관없이 그 논의를 시작해야 한다.𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘᴇ X 14:35, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

• 토굴 R, 무뚝뚝하게 말할게.다음 중 하나라도 제명(WP:WP에서 TBAN):AA2 주제 영역: 1.분쟁에 대한 에트노 민족적 개인화; 이 과정에서 에트노 민족적 영감을 동료 편집자에게 돌리는 것 2. 합법적으로 선의로 반달리즘을 편집하는 것 (반달리즘이 아닌 것을 보라) 3. 이의를 제기하는 집단 변화 4. 특히 당신이 소개한 항목에 대한 편집 전쟁 (WP:BRD, WP:ONUS.제 생각에 그게 전부인 것 같아요.내가 WP에서 금지한 사용자처럼 더닝 크루거가 성공하지 않기를 바란다.BOKANCES 주제 영역은 어제 이 주제와 유사한 게시판을 토론한 후 발표되었다.나는 이 경고를 로그에 기록한다.이 문제에 대해 세심하게 신경 써줘서 미리 고마워.El_C 15:44, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

  @El C: 나는 실생활 문제를 다루기 위해 몇 시간 동안 휴식을 취했고, 그 주제에 대해 다시 논평하는 것을 안도한다.AA2 주제는 상당히 짜증스럽지만, 나는 드라마를 위키백과에서 멀리하고 다른 곳에 두는 것이 좋다고 생각한다.이에 대해 의견을 말해 주셔서 감사합니다 — Toghrul R (대화) 19:01, 2021년 9월 9일(UTC)

크로이키 WP:OWN/WP:ONUS/WP:크리스탈

국가 붕괴라는 기사는 대체로 크로이키의 작품이다.그것은 예가 많지만, 그 현상에 대한 실제적인 치료에는 매우 부족하다.인용된 예로는 (다른 것들 중) 피어스 모건, 나이젤 로슨, 안드르제즈 두다 등의 의견을 바탕으로 "붕괴의 위험이 있는 것으로 추정되는 상태"가 있다.본 섹션은 Beland가 WP로서 삭제하였다.크리스탈과 그 후 크로이키에 의해 복권되었으며, 이는 전문가 의견이며, 따라서 WP에 의해 면제되었다.크리스탈.나는 벨랜드의 의견에 동의하고 그 부분을 다시 삭제했고, 토크 페이지에 대한 토론을 열었고, I WP:Just Don't likeit과 내 의견은 전문가가 아니다.크로이키에 따르면 무엇이 전문가를 구성하는지는 여전히 불명확하다.

나는 3RR에 있고 다시 되돌아가고 싶지 않지만, 모든 일은 WP가 풍부하다.WP에 대한 소유 및 요약:컨센서스.Kleuske (대화) 13:35, 2021년 9월 6일 (UTC)

그 기사는 WP인 것 같다.Synth / WP:OR. 나는 특히 2017년 11월부터 열띤 토론에서 크로이키의 진술이 걱정된다: 나는 당신의 '구체적인 예'가 유용하다고 확신한다. 하지만 단순히 내 글에 OR과 SYNTH가 있는 곳을 명시한다면 모든 시간을 절약할 수 있지 않을까? 그래야 훨씬 빨리 고칠 수 있어그 감정은 WP를 정말로 자극한다.소유권 — sbb (대화) 19:51, 2021년 9월 6일(UTC)

SYNTH 우려에 동의한다.빠른 검색으로 보면 분명히 국가 붕괴라는 용어가 있지만, 인용한 저자들 중 일부는 국가 권력의 개념과 그들의 흥망성쇠에 대해 더 폭넓게 이야기하고 있는 것 같다.예를 들어 에리히 프롬은 붕괴된 상태의 심리를 이야기했지만, '국가 붕괴'라는 용어는 이야기하지 않았다.내 걱정은 이 기사가 제3의 출처가 아닌 제2의 출처 역할을 하려고 한다는 것이다.프롬이 국가붕괴론에 중요한 기여를 했다고 말하고 싶다면 프롬을 직접 인용하는 것이 아니라 본질적으로 직접 논증하는 것이 아니라 그 점을 주장하는 기사를 인용할 필요가 있다.마찬가지로, 사례 섹션은 단지 기본적인 역사적 사실, 즉 인도의 분열이 실제로 일어났다는 것을 확인하는 것처럼 보인다. 그때 우리는 실제로 이러한 사건들이 국가 붕괴의 예라고 주장하는 어떤 것을 인용할 필요가 있다.핑긴 🐧 08:16, 2021년 9월 7일 (UTC)

문제의 일부는 기사가 기사보다 적고 주제와 관련된 모든 것의 총탄목록이 많아 전반적으로 wp:undue가 많다는 것으로 보인다.WP는 분명하지 않지만:글의 소유권은 이것의 원인이다—맹인 (대화) 19:07, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

Andlol17, 운영 중단 편집 및 프로세스 초안 작성

• 안들롤17 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
• 웨보프로이 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

지난 며칠 동안 이 두 계정들은 Ranaghat News에 대한 기사를 작성하기 위해 노력해왔다. 현재 기사는 초안에 있다.라나갓 뉴스.이 글은 출처가 부족하고 일반적으로 기사의 최소 기준을 충족하지 못해 두 번 초안을 작성하였다 [142] [143].페이지 보호를 요청하여 이동 전쟁에서 승리하려고 시도한 후 [144] 페이지는 검토를 위해 제출하라는 지침과 함께 초안 위치에서 보호되었다.

이러한 안들롤17에 이어 다른 신문에도 출판이 남아 있을 만한 충분한 출처가 없다는 근거로 드래프트 스페이스에 기사를 보내는 등, 드래프트가 기승을 부린 것으로 보인다.그들은 바르타만[145]에 관한 글과 상바드 프라티딘[146]에 관한 글에 이렇게 했다.문제는 이 두 가지 초안이 모두 정책과 부합되지 않았다는 점이다. - 이 조항들은 16년과 15년 된 존경의 글, WP:ATD-I는 초안이 최근에 만들어진 기사들에 대해서만 이루어져야 하며, 공신력에 대한 우려가 있을 경우 이를 제출하거나 AFD로 보내야 한다는 것을 분명히 한다.바보화(다른 신문사)의 주제와 시기 때문에 나는 이것들이 '보복'을 목적으로 초안화되고 있다는 것을 느끼지 않을 수 없다.

나는 며칠 전에 바타만에게 그 일에 무슨 일이 일어났는지 알아챘을 때 [147] 그리고 또 다른 IP가 상바드 프라티딘의 누락된 기사에 대해 불평을 하며 찻집에 나타났을 때 [148]의 초안을 풀어달라고 요청했다.사용자가 일시적으로 아티클 공간을 다시 이동함:사용자에 의해 재설계되기 전에 Blaze The Wolf:딥프리도크라.

WP에 따라:ATD-I 및 WP:드래프트 오브젝트 상바드 프라티딘에 관한 기사는 기사공간으로 다시 옮겨서 필요한 경우 PRODS나 AFD를 통해 다루어야 한다.나는 다른 관리자들에게 앤들롤17이 수행한 시안을 살펴보고 그것이 파괴적인 목적을 위한 것인지 판단해줄 것을 요청한다. 192.76.8.74 (대화) 15:50, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

I forgot to include this in my original report, but I think it's worth noting that most of the remainder of Andlol17's edits consist of adding links to Ranaghat News' website to various articles [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154] and adding Ranaghat News to various list articles [155] [156] so I think it's highly likely that there's some COI invol여기서 ved. 192.76.8.74 (대화) 19:30, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

나는 라나갓 뉴스에 기사를 쓰려고 했던 두 계정과 그들의 행동이 얼마나 비슷한지 때문에 한 계정이 다른 계정과 다를 바 없다고 생각한다.Blaze The Wolf Proude Possible and Wikipedia Editor (토크) (나에 의한 Stupidity by me) 15:54, 2021년 9월 9일 (UTC)

• @Titodutta and Blaze The Wolf:, 2409:4061:2C85:9787:51F7:1B0B:9DAC:9466,. Apologies all around for my part in this. I made a number of mistakes here. I will return the one I moved to draft to where it started. Please let me know what other blunders I've made today. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: Thank you. Looks like only the issue of sock remains un-attended as pointed by Blaze The Wolf2409:4061:2C90:7EBD:E18D:7915:CA79:72ED (talk) 17:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

To investigate the possible socking going on would could open up an investigation at WP:SPI, however that would require figuring out which one is the master and which one is the sock of the master. Blaze The Wolf Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) (Stupidity by me) 18:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra: It's alright! I was a bit confused when you moved it back due to how I had understood the situation and assume that I has misunderstood what was being stated. Blaze The Wolf Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) (Stupidity by me) 18:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• I have no opinion on whether this should be kept or deleted, but I wish people would just follow WP:DRAFTOBJECT and list this at WP:AFD if they think it should be deleted rather than edit-war and argue about the issue here. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Nylankramwiki

I just wanted to add to this, they had created a draft Jean Garcia Official that was a copy of the main article, so I deleted it. I would note that it seems the account is claiming to be the article subject, and it seems they're viewing Wikipedia in the same way as a social media account on other platforms, hence the Jean Garcia Official designations. So we may not want to completely dismiss the editor. However the behaviour and attitude are not acceptable and if it is that person, it's not a good look. However given the language usage, it doesn't strike me as an experience 52 year old actress. Canterbury Tailtalk 14:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I doubt an experienced 52-year-old actress would be trying to directly promote herself - her agents/promotional staff would, but not her herself. Image is everything. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 00:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Skiyomi

I wished to bring to attention that after another socking by User:Skiyomi I have placed full protection on their user talk page, as I see no reason for others to post there with the risk of further evasion. I invite others to review this and change if desired. 331dot (talk) 20:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree out of exhaustion with that user and this prior thread. @Deepfriedokra: Star Mississippi 20:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Makes a nice honey trap. But, yeah. Exhausting. So exhausting. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

In hopes that a UTRS ban works before user posts there, I've banned that last one. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

My original question was whether or not I can decline to take a unblock request here from UTRS. (Skiyomi being a poor example, cause yeah.) That question was not actually answered, but . . . . --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:28, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you can decline to take an unblock request, at least when a user is community banned, based on the wording of the ban appeal, where it says about asking an administrator to post their appeal to AN,"This is a voluntary act, and should not be abused or used to excess."Jackattack1597 (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Deepfriedokra, without presuming to speak for the entire community (and having discussed this issue with you briefly before) I don't think the community would oblige you to transclude appeal requests, regardless of previous involvement. I assume that if another admin subsequently felt it appropriate and filed an appeal, you wouldn't be offended or consider it wheel-warring? St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Stalwart111: As I clearly demonstrated earlier today, I sometimes make mistakes. So, I rely on the good judgement of my colleagues. I am never offended if another admin sees their way to doing something I could not. I would make clear in my UTRS note that anyone else should feel free to carry to the community what I did not. My concern is with usurping the Community's prerogatives by preemptively saying "nope" and denying them the opportunity to decide. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't imagine anyone having a concern with that approach, and your track-record in this instance speaks for itself. Choosing not to flog a dead horse (on someone else's behalf, no less) is not the same thing as refusing the community a right to consider the horse; another admin can pick up the stick (or use their mop) if they so choose. St★lwart¹¹¹ 02:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

2a00:23c7:5884:5a01:358c:3157:3bcc:b83b/44

ComicsAreJustAllRight ‎- persistent personal attacks and abusive conduct

Page blanking escalating to legal threat

Personal attacks

• 2A01:4C8:1404:22BB:8CBD:914F:8A9F:2115 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Yesterday, I made some edits on Zombie (The Cranberries song) that removed non-reliable sources and some general copy-editing. Today, User:2A01:4C8:1404:22BB:8CBD:914F:8A9F:2115 made this edit on the page in which they changed a word in a sentence and gave a passive-aggressive edit summary. The sentence in question beforehand read "Graham Fuller commented that the metaphor could "reanimates the children whose deaths inspired O'Riordan to write it"." before they changed it to "Graham Fuller commented that the metaphor perhaps "reanimates the children whose deaths inspired O'Riordan to write it"." I then received a message from them here on my talk page in which they flat out attacked me and named me the specific reason they "will not donate any cash to the Wikipedia project" and that I "demean it and all the dead children".

For context, I did not write this sentence originally (I don't know who did). This IP is implying that because I made a string of edits to the page yet missed this sentence, I am a disgrace to the WP project and "demeans dead children". I replied to them here explaining that. According to their contributions page the IP is already partially blocked but I still thought I should bring it up here in case another course of action needed to be taken. Thank you. – zmbro _(talk) 16:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

See also the IP range's other edits to user talk pages. Kleinpecan (talk) 17:48, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

For a particularly egregious example, look at this. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi and welcome to the internet. People here are assholes. This seems like a particularly boring and harmless kind off assholery, that you should have ignored, reverted from your talk page and then forgotten about completely, not brought to ANI. —JBL (talk) 11:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• On reviewing the IP's history, there appears to be a persistent history of egregious incivility and threats of violence. This is not mere "boring and harmless assholery." It needs to be dealt with. Here's a series of posts last year to one other user's talk page:

• "YOU’RE FINISHED IT’S OVER FOR YOU CVNT"
• "I’ll stab the fvck out of you, cvnt.
• "Listen here, mate. I’m your worst nightmare. DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO WARN ME AGAIN BECAUSE I’LL FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE AND I’LL FVCKING THROTTLE YOU!! ALRIGHT? GOOD.
• NIGHT SWITCH IS A ROCK SPIDER. HE ASSAULTS CHILDREN WITH HIS SMALL WACKER. HIS FAMILY WISHES THAT HE WOULD JUST END HIS LIFE ALREADY AND SPARE THEM ANY FURTHER EMBARRASSMENT LOL
• I’m getting sick of you. ... you absolute loser. Just end it right now. You might as well.
• HAHA BET YOU’RE SH1TTING IT NOW YOU LITTLE B1TCH
• Why are you such a boring cvnt, Night Switch?

Cbl62 (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

This is, indeed, boring and harmless. People on the internet are assholes -- don't read the comments, don't get worked up about anonymous idiots, etc. There's no need for a community discussion here, AIV or poking whoever blocked them most recently would have been quicker and done a better job. --JBL (talk) 16:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Wow! If these comments are "boring and harmless", god help us. Cbl62 (talk) 17:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

They are indeed boring and harmless. Probably just some teenager trying to get a rise. WaltCip-(talk) 00:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Some of these are very egregious personal attacks that should be rev-del'ed. I'd recommend blocking the range at least from User and User talk spaces indefinitely. Isabelle ^🔔 17:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive posts by editor(s) at featured article review of Koh Tao Murders

Two different accounts have made lengthy and invective-filled posts at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Koh Tao murders/archive1, claiming that the article is biased and insulting the nominator, ProcrastinatingReader. The first two [169] [170] were made by an account called "JusticeforDavidMiller," one of the victims of the murders. The third [171], which was removed by FA coordinator Ian Rose, was by an account called "RoyalThaiPolice". Neither account has made any edits whatsoever other than to this FA review. The comment from the RoyalThaiPolice account begins with: "Gosh! Wow! I see now that this article's nominator, DefecatingReader, wont respond to my comments until I learn "basic collegiality." In making this comment, the person has admitted that both accounts are controlled by the same person. As using two accounts in a dispute is a violation of WP:Sockpuppetry, and as the person is clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia, I propose that both accounts be indefinitely blocked, and a block imposed on the IP address to prevent the creation of any new accounts. Display name 99 (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• The accounts are confirmed and blocked. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Drmies I considered removing their comments entirely, but given ProcrastinatingReader responded to some of them, I went for hatting it instead. They're clearly unhelpful rants... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Thanks all. Yes the initial comments, though inflammatory, were just within the pale but hatting is entirely appropriate now. The last comment OTOH fit my non-Admin's definition of "grossly insulting" so I deleted it on sight -- whether it should be removed from the page history as well I leave to the Admins. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

DaydreamButera

DaydreamButera is attempting to hide all negative reviews in Thalaivii and moving all negative reviews to bottom and postive reviews at to top.[172][173] Also again moved all negative reviews to bottom and postive to top, thus falsely showing the film is positive and added content not verifiable from citations about positive reviews with a totally untrue edit summary "some correction and added more sources"[174]

Admin help needed. 157.46.73.105 (talk) 05:50, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks like a content dispute to me. I will notify of thread. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 07:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Range block request

Elf Sternberg has been protected twice in the past two months, in fact it still is, but nothing seems to be stopping vandalism with it. Is it possible to find a range which will block the IPs? Though several different vandalistic edits have been made, the content they are most frequently trying to add is to change his name to "Elf Mamzer Sternberg", which word (mamzer) seems to mean something along the lines of "bastard" or "of corrupt birth"; clearly not something to add randomly.

The IPs i have found most recently are:
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:3877:3DC:3557:442B
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:8106:127D:9734:131D
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:34D7:292C:A4D7:EA2F
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:45EC:9862:48C7:D3A6
2600:1008:B12C:BD94:C55D:7417:B90F:F807
2600:1008:B126:A339:1991:4B31:1E02:5C66
2600:1008:B10C:107F:BCEF:9254:F5BE:4D1A
2600:1008:B104:81D2:A950:7B0B:338D:6459
2600:1008:B145:B6F9:EC83:4194:4F15:3A41
2600:1008:B168:C26D:586:BA7E:DB49:2231
2600:1008:B147:6473:BC7C:E3C4:70B2:DFB2
107.212.84.162
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:ED61:1BA3:F32:DF14
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:255F:BE8F:F173:151A
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:ADFF:239F:9C2D:EA1A
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:A4F9:593F:1F4C:8BAF
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:64DD:584C:206F:C040
2600:1700:1EF0:3EE0:1B1:BB16:D51:3A96
2600:1700:1ef0:3ee0:585b:fc03:87b4:8b9e
2600:1700:432d:9470:a5a2:852b:7225:5ab6
2600:1700:1ef0:3ee0:9de1:5ce8:8e17:9561
2600:1700:1ef0:3ee0:7cd0:90cb:d41:381b

This list goes back to the middle of May, so this isn't an especially recent target. Though i suspect it's pointless, i'll notify the most recent IP address of this report. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 08:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

blocked /64 for a week. let me know if that doesn't stop 'em. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:36, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Easy partial block request

NOTHERE and other issues - Capurta

Mehedihasn and a physics hoax

96.19.71.229 again

The most damningly threatening personal attack I've ever seen, from an IP-hopping, block-evading editor

Johnpacklambert

Johnpacklambert unblock conditions

• Johnpacklambert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · SPI)

There was a discussion about User:Johnpacklambert here a little over a week ago (archived). During the discussion, JPL was blocked by User:El C. The discussions, both here at ANI and on JPL's talk page, continued after the block and deteriorated, and it seemed unlikely that something productive would come from continuing at that time. I removed talk page access for a week, and closed the ANI thread, as a cool down period. In the close of the ANI tread, I said "When/if unblock conditions are discussed, people will have an opportunity to comment".

El C has reversed his block, with a condition (forged on JPL's talk page by several editors and admins). The unblock request reads "I recognize that my over reactions, over defensiveness, and general attacks on others were disruptive and would like to apologize for it. As detailed above I am requesting an unblock authorization. The plan is that I will work on articles in Category:1922 births, adding sources, adding categories, adding text, and doing general improvments to the articles. For the time being I will only edit articles that are in that category when I began editing them. The plan is in the short term to when I complete that category move back to Category:1921 births, but I will wait until I get through the 1922 births to do that. For now I will only do edits on those pages that are in the category when I find them. Again I would like to sincerely apologize for the disruption I have caused. I want to be an editor who improves the project and does not cause problems.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2021 (UTC)"

So, I guess the question is, is this unblock condition acceptable to the community, and does it address the problems that led to the ANI thread in the first place? FWIW, I think it is worth a shot to try this. Discussion about these unblock conditions is on JPL's talk page. I'm hoping the ANI community accepts it. But I promised a discussion when I closed the ANI thread, and so here it is. After the fact, but what else can I do? --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ugh, I'll tell you what you can do. You could take all of your belongings and go live in a shoe! El_C 03:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

You may not be aware, but you're being a douche when you make nonsensical comments like this. You're doing it a lot lately. Please stop it. It's frustrating, and if you keep doing it, you'll likely disrupt this thread and make it harder to settle this. --Floquenbeam (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

A douche, you say? That's refreshing. El_C 04:13, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Translator's note: "douche", in French, means "shower". jp×g 22:11, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• This situation needs to be handled sensitively and with minimal drama. Starting a thread at ANI strikes me as the opposite of that. – bradv^🍁 04:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Well that's me, a fucking drama monger. I promised people could comment, and kept my promise. I'm out. If you close this, it's on you, not me. I tried to do the right thing. To everyone in the previous ANI thread: sorry I lied to you. It was unintentional, and to some extent, in retrospect, out of my control. --Floquenbeam (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

    First I would like to remind everyone including myself that the existence of this thread does not require anyone except El C, Floquenbeam, and JPL and perhaps if there's someone else involved to respond and even then only if questions are specifically raised about their behaviour, actions and plans that definitely need a response (a lot of the time no response is needed). If the community appears to be proposing a plan then of course you might want to help shape that decision if necessary. (Remembering if the outcome seems clear and your feedback is unlikely to change things then as always consider if it's necessary.) Anyway I would prefer no ANI thread but IMO this thread is the best solution.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support Unblock with conditions - I think the specific plan addresses the issue at hand well, and can be reevulated in the future as needed. ––FormalDude talk 06:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support unblock- this seems like the best way forward for everyone. Reyk _YO! 07:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support Unblock with conditions. If JPL can stay out of drama for 6-12 months, there should be a good chance of getting the restrictions lifted. And thanks to admins for last few actions on this. Floq's 1 week cool down wasnt risk free but seemed for the best on balance of probability, & JPL looks much calmer now his TPA is restored. Also great that El_C unblocked; with that as the status quo at the start of this discussion, its much more likely we'll get JPL back. If JPL reads this, I hope he considers JClemmen's point about being too reliant on Wikipedia as his vehicle for making valuable contributions. Even allowing for the challenges from mild autism, there must be thousands of undertakings that would appreciate help from someone with JPL's intelligence and energy.FeydHuxtable (talk) 07:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with conditions per my comments at JPL's talk page, and above. Hopefully these extremely narrow conditions will allow JPL to get back to editing and improving the project, while keeping them away from problematic areas. And JPL knows that if he breaches those tight conditions, then a lengthy and perhaps permanent block awaits. I'm also sorry to see El C and Floq in disagreement above - both admins I respect greatly, and I can see where both of them are coming from - El C is entitled to undo their own block on the one hand, and Floq wanting to keep their promise to the community by coming back to ANI. Hopefully this discussion here will not prove too contentious, and then the two diverging narratives can be reunited once more. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, well, I've been finding Floq to be grumpy a lot lately, which is frustrating, so I admit to have generally been trying to avoid a closed loop of frustration there, but sometimes there's overlap. And sometimes you're tired. Oh well. Anyway, too bad we couldn't discuss the details of RESTRICT formalities on JPL's talk page, but I guess a promise is sacred. Still, I'd submit more broadly that not everything needed to be done right fuckin' now. In any case, it is what it is at this point, so forging ahead, I guess. El_C 12:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Change of view to oppose unblock. Apologies for this but, when I wrote the following (now struck through) on the 6th, I was unaware that JPL had created additional accounts and this rash action must count heavily against him. The recent block for BLP violations (highlighted by Andrew below) is another decisive factor because it is inexcusable for an experienced editor to breach BLP. While I remain concerned about JPL's stress levels, I think Guerillero makes a salient point in saying that "editing Wikipedia seems actively harmful to JPL's mental health". Much has been said about JPL's attitude towards religion and, although I personally have no religion whatsoever, I fully respect other people's religious views and JPL should do the same, always subject to site policies such as WP:V, WP:OR, WP:POV, WP:RS, etc. – obviously, if JPL were to revert some unsourced nonsense about the CLDS, he would be right to do so. On balance, the combination of SPI and BLP (both of which I had not previously taken into account) tips the scales and I now think both JPL and WP would benefit from a parting of the ways. No Great Shaker (talk) 09:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support unblock with conditions for six months. In addition, I think JPL should be allowed immediate access to AFD and CFD because I've found his contributions there are always insightful and useful, even on the few occasions when I haven't fully agreed with him. If he can interact with others at those pages, it will help him to feel part of the community again. Bearing in mind that his messages during the block have strongly indicated extreme stress, he should not be made to feel marginalised. No Great Shaker (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Unexpected to see a good faith editor like yourself selectively quoting Guerillero in a way that makes their nonsense seem even less reasonable. What they actually said was From the last thread, editing Wikipedia seems actively harmful to JPL's mental health. That's a valid reading of the thread, but it's a rather small data point. Before venturing an opinion on another editors MH it would be polite to take a wider view. JPL was quite clear on his TP last week that Wikipedia is the only place where he feels able to make valuable contributions. Regardless of the fact that the editing here occasionally makes him feel stressed, angry or panicky, it's clearly allmost certainly a net +ve for him. There's a handful of editors here who engage in high level consultancy with platform operators & governments concerning Digital media use and mental health . But most venturing opinions on other editors MH should be ignored or asked to keep their armchair psychology to themselves. FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, editing Wikipedia can be torture. But no-one expects the comfy chair!! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support unblock with the proposed restriction. It’s a curiously narrow restriction but if JPL is content with it, I am too. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 09:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Opppose any unblock without a specific and logged ban at WP:RESTRICT from all deletion processes and all religion-based pages for a period of at least a year. Otherwise this is an utter waste of time and we will be back here as soon as JPL thinks people have stopped paying attention. The above from JPL are not actually 'conditions'. Note use of 'the plan' and 'for the time being'. Even with specific blocks from those two areas, JPL will just cause disruption somewhere else. This is not their first rodeo, this is not a second or third chance, this is once again JPL saying 'sorry I wont do it again' then they will go and do it again. WP:NOTTHERAPY also exists for a reason. We are way beyond the point where Wikipedia has made reasonable adjustments to accomodate JPL constant excuses. They have demonstrated over many years they are fundamentally unable to change, so they either need to go completely, or be forcibly prevented from causing issues. And I will absolutely echo KW here in that the persona JPL likes to project on-wiki is very far, deceptively so, than that they project off-wiki. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Waiting to hear from John I have some thoughts to share, but before I do so, now that John has had ample time to reflect on his decisions, I would like to read his thoughts on his using multiple accounts. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, and second the statement by Only in death does duty end. I followed the thread without comment last week, and have been watching it unfold at JPLs talk the last few days. Definitive logged restrictions need to be in place. A blanket restriction from religion articles is probably also in order, as editor seems constitutionally incapable of separating their own beliefs from the NPOV required to edit them, especially concerning his own religion. Heiro 12:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock I think it is in everyone's best interest from from JPL to the community's to give JPL our best regards and bluntly tell him to find himself another hobby. I suggest one that is not found in cyberspace and involves coming into contact with vegitation or the outdoors on a reguar basis. From the last thread, editing Wikipedia seems actively harmful to JPL's mental health and his contributions to our deletion processes and religion have been harmful to Wikipedia. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 12:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd really wish there were less of these NOTTHERAPY expressions by those espousing this CBAN masquerading as an oppose unblock. El_C 12:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@El C: And I'd really wish you didn't rush to push the unblock button before the community had a chance to give their input on it. I find my comment to be extremely frank and transparent. --Guerillero^{Parlez Moi} 13:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I used my discretion when blocking and I used my discretion when unblocking. "Extremely"? Yeah, maybe. Good luck to you all. El_C 13:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I thought the "go take a walk outside" rhetoric to be pretty condescending and dismissive, actually. Reyk _YO! 14:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• This is not really an unblock condition. It's so loosely worded that there's no real condition here except 'start slow then phase back in'. Probably why it isn't logged at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Voluntary like other unblock conditions would be? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:46, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

At this time, that is correct. El_C 12:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose on these terms. There is absolutely no commitment to avoid problematic or tendentious editing areas, only not to immediately start back on them (and even then, "1922 births" seems like such a niche area that it's hard not to assume they may have a biography in mind within the wheelhouse they're best avoiding); any request should ideally include a much more concrete tban from areas fraught with issue for JPL until they can demonstrate they're responsible enough to contribute. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 12:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with conditions - the self-imposed conditions seem very stringent to me. We could change it to "1919 births" if there are doubts about the randomness of 1922. I have always found JPL's comments at cfd of interest and as valid as anyone else's (other than my own of course). Oculi (talk) 13:21, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with the current conditions and Support asking everyone to step back from the edge a bit. None of the recriminations, aspersions, or sniping helps build the encyclopedia. There's far too much personalization of actions and ascribing of motivations occurring. Take a break and go smell the flowers or dance in the rain, as your local weather indicates. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The categories of 1921 and 1922 births are not random and seem quite inappropriate. The people in this category will tend to be either (a) recently dead or (b) centenarians or (c) of uncertain BLP status. JPL was blocked just three months ago for messing with BLP categories of this kind and the proposed restriction seems likely to increase the chances of this happening again. It would be better to restrict them to a less sensitive age band such as 1821 births. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) It seems pretty ridiculous to unblock so soon after JPL's sockpuppetry. Seems as though people were simply swayed by his strong emotional reaction to the original block to the point that the subsequent misbehavior was treated as immaterial or forgotten about entirely, but it's a pretty serious infraction. At a minimum it seems more reasonable for JPL to wait out the standard offer before being given the opportunity to return with such restrictions, in light of how easily he fell into the temptation to evade editing restrictions (that is, a full block). --Equivamp - talk 15:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) 1922 and 1921 look oddly specific, but people on the spectrum often view the world in non-mainstream ways, and I read nothing more into those dates than that. There's no doubt that improving existing articles is valuable work which can make a real difference. For a pragmatic reason, I'd suggest 1770 births and working backwards from there; before the birth of any prominent member of the LDS Church I know of. If JPL can get any article in that class up to DYK or GA status - well, enough said! those are hats well worth collecting. Narky Blert (talk) 16:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with conditions under the assumptions that concerns about the pattern of emotional blackmail etc have been addressed in private off wiki by JPL and relevant admins. If my assumption is incorrect and those issues have not been addressed then I can’t in good faith support an unblock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2021 (UTC) I was incorrect the main issue has not been addressed, I must therefore change my position to oppose per my previous statement. At this point I’m not even sure that they understand that what they did was wrong, which is really the bare minimum and should be just the start of the conversation. On the philosophical side (because apparently thats also what we’re discussing), is there nothing compassionate about enabling an abuser? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I see an attempt at an apology, but nothing more, and nothing to address the issues that JPL was blocked for and why they wont repeat that behaviour. Then it goes to the non sequitur of tasking themselves with articles in the 1921 and 1922 births categories. That's before you get into the issue of socking and the recent BLP-related block, that Andrew Davidson mentions. Lugnuts^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  Although this all seems moot now, as I see their account is unblocked. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:48, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose given all the drama, second/third/fourth chances, and the fact that none of these restrictions get at the original problematic behavior, the sockepuppetry, etc.; enough chances have already been given. Grandpallama (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment the complaints at the top of the thread that it's "insensitive" to have an ANI thread must be rejected; unless ARBCOM is involved or the restrictions clearly (and voluntarily) include all the suggestions in the initial thread there MUST be this follow-up thread. It seems the unblock condition is that JPL can only edit articles regarding people born in 1921 or 1922? This is one of the most bizarre unblock conditions I have ever seen, and it doesn't address the issues regarding the Manual of Style's guidelines on short names of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at all. Obviously this isn't a long-term solution, and we must expect an appeal; if there is an understanding that further disruption (particularly regarding Manual of Style issues) before an appeal will result in a Community Ban Not Appealable For 180 Days this may be minimally acceptable. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:50, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  @力: It's my understanding JPL agreed to not edit any articles, even those appearing in people born in 1921, that are in any way related to the LDS Church. Additionally that topic restriction means he can't edit the MOS. So, for those reasons, isn't his issue regarding the MOS guidelines on short names of the LDS Church fully addressed?

  I do agree that this ANI thread is a requirement and appreciate Floquenbeam for following through with it. ––FormalDude talk 04:26, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  I must endorse the WP:NOTAVOTE claims; I don't feel I am supporting or opposing any specific written proposal regarding the unblock of JPL. That editor is currently unblocked, yet consensus is clear that an unblock would need conditions. I support there being fair conditions; not unreasonably burdensome conditions that amount to a procedural block, yet also not so vague and minimal as to amount to an unconditional unblock. If anyone can tell me whether that is "support" or "oppose", they might be more enlightened than Bodhidharma. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν)

• Tally — 9 Support to 7 Oppose as it currently stands. ~18 hours post thread opening. — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 21:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Shibbolethink: To you of all people I thought citing WP:NOTAVOTE wouldn't be required. No comment on the matter at hand, since I really don't care for the drama, although if it's this close, it might be that there is no consensus here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  NOTAVOTE is so idealistic and much of it hardly applies in practice these days. Maybe it used to apply more once upon a time. When was the last time a large-scale dispute was resolved by building actual 'consensus' (using the traditional definition of the word, not the WikiSpeak definition)? I don't remember, personally. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  WP:CON still exists, but it does have to contend with vote counters of several types, including those who will snow close a discussion rather than let the discussers try to come to some understanding of each others' perspectives. Though I will agree that so called "drive by voting", and people talking past each other rather than listening to each other (not to mention gamesmanship of many forms), seems to be becoming more prevalent, which I do find disenheartening. - jc37 03:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  My anecdotal experience with WP:NOTAVOTE is that it applies when people are not justifying their votes, or when there are people piling on just to pile on, rather than to further expand support or opposition for a particular point. To that extent, everyone here seems to be furthering the discussion. ––FormalDude talk 01:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Of course I would agree, this is not a vote @RandomCanadian! But I still think a vote tally is a useful gauge to approximate how the discussion is going. When closing, arguments and policy must be examined, as well as the strength and merits thereof. But that doesn't mean we just ignore the vote tally. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 11:14, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support somewhat reluctantly, mainly on the basis that the WP:ROPE has been extended so many times now that it's on its very last thread, and any further issues will probably be a CBAN, and I'm sure JPL knows this. Black Kite (talk) 22:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Probably meaningless now, since it's a fait accompli, but oppose per Black Kite above. There has been so much drama and so many numbered chances, not imposing a restriction of some kind (not a "plan"; that's neither meaningful nor enforceable), let alone not addressing the socking...it's hard for me to see this ending at all well. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 22:58, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Involved support I was the editor who brought JPL to ANI which spun into this situation. I have accepted his apology about the actions that led to El C's indef and as I said here or his talk (can't find-but someone can), I won't stand in the way of an unblock as that was not my goal when I brought his Mormon / LDS edits here. I remain concerned about JPL's ability to edit with an NPOV, but there are enough folks watching that I'm sure any 192x issues will be addressed if and when they happen. I do think this is the last last straw though as he's a productive editor but he has been here one too many times Star Mississippi 23:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per LindsayH et al. - the socking is a major aggravating factor. GAB^gab 01:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose with a "But" Given the behavior included socking, I think we're beyond the point of a simple apology sufficing. I do not believe that JPL editing Wikipedia is in either Wikipedia's interest or JPL's interest given the behavior in the last few weeks when they were unable to edit. However, since it appears that the block will not be reinstated, if JPL's allowed to edit again, I'd argue that it's crucial that any condition of return involve a topic ban specific to religion, given that the behavior in that area has been repeated and is why we are here in the first place. So yes, allow JPL to post about 1922 births or whatever, but make sure that we're not talking about religious figures, broadly construed. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  I think JPL has done much more than a simple apology, but either way I agree that a topic ban specific to religion is a good idea. Since he is limited to only 1922 births, that is a given, and he has already agreed to the further restriction from editing any 1922 articles that are in anyway involved with the LDS Church. I think it is likely he would agree to not editing any religious figures broadly construed too. Following his two week break, he has been very reasonable and accommodating in his request to be unblocked. ––FormalDude talk 04:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Leave as is unless something new happens A lot of people supporting or opposing the unblock. However the unblock was performed by the blocking admin and no admin needs community consent to reverse their own action. So the question to me is not if the unblock was appropriate, it was. The question is if a new block is justified. I say for a new block to be justified there would need to be new behavior to justify it. I suppose it is possible that the previous discussion of sanctions could resume, but I think it lost steam. That being said the community is clearly close to its breaking point with this user and I recommend to them to walk as though on egg shells. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 02:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Observations: 1) First, thank you Floq for following through on your promise. 2) I think a couple of the early replies were uncalled for, and I was disappointed to see that kind of behavior. (the douche comment was also over the top - but I understand it due to the frustration). 3) I agree with High in BC in that since it was El_C's block, it was his right to unblock (although I'm not convinced it was a particularly good unblock). 4) Again I agree with HighinBC in that once someone has been unblocked, it would not be right to re-block ... absent continued disruption. To that end, I'd suggest just closing the thread, and stop snipping at each other. — Ched (talk) 02:48, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with no conditions - if they can't edit productively without any conditions attached to their account, they have no business editing Wikipedia. If they are truly a net negative to the project, leave them blocked indef. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• That's a philosophical question that doesn't belong here, goes against years and years of actual practice and actual processes -- hell, actual software features like partial blocks. If you want to make fundamental changes to how Wikipedia does things, start an RFC. --Calton Talk 07:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No, I'm not starting a RfC, and I did not ask a philosophical question. Isaidnoway (talk) 07:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Regarding whether or not a block can be issued, as with any scenario, the community is free to review what has transpired and reach a consensus on the best path going forward. isaacl (talk) 04:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. He definitely should be banned from any deletion discussions due to his well-documented history of indiscriminate voting and prodding and any topic related to religion per Only in Death and CoffeeCrumbs. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. A read of his talk page will show a history of shifting rationales, of saying whatever he thinks will let him get his way. His sudden and aggressive attempt to use "racism!" regarding the word "Mormon", for example, and his change to over-the-top attempts at evoking pity makes me believe that he's acting in bad faith, where he's treating Wikipedia like a video game where if he can use just the right cheat codes he can win. The restrictions he wants don't address the issues that keep bringing him to ANI, and seem so specific and unexplained that I can't help but wonder what's behind them. Unless there are firm restrictions that address his actual behaviors and have consequences for attempts at testing or gaming them, Wikipedia is better off without him. --Calton Talk 07:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

"his change to over-the-top attempts at evoking pity makes me believe that he's acting in bad faith, where he's treating Wikipedia like a video game where if he can use just the right cheat codes he can win" is what I was referring to in my comment as "emotional blackmail etc” I assume its been addressed off wiki by admins in emails with JPL. I assume that there are in fact firm restrictions that address his actual behaviors that we just don’t know about. I would actually like clarification on that, @El C: can you help? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:14, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No. El_C 15:41, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

So the big issue was never even addressed? You’ve gotten enough shit already so I won’t pile on but smh. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:49, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: My understanding is JPL agreed to a broad topic ban and would likely agree to additional firm restrictions. ––FormalDude talk 15:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support full unblock, a productive long-time Wikipedian. Gets carried away on a topic from time to time, but then those are discussed and ultimately solved. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as proposed If we're going for a last-chance unblock, then, looking at what ultimately caused JPL's block, and now the aggravating socking (from someone who has been here long enough to know that's not the way forward); the conditions strike me as entirely missing the mark. What I could support is an unblock with the following, simple restrictions: topic ban from religion, broadly construed, and, of course, a single-account restriction; but in principle no one is essential to the project so I don't see why we'd want to make yet another example of WP:UNBLOCKABLES. We indef new editors for way less, so I'm not convinced in any case. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock with conditions - I have thought about this all weekend. My mind has wandered in both directions. I believe Wikipedia is a net positive for JPL but is Wikipedia a net positive with JPL here? Ultimately, I agree that Wikipedia has ben affected negatively by JPL in certain areas of focus. However, other areas have benefited greatly from JPL being here. The conundrum we face as a community is the health aspect. I'm not discussing particulars or going into detail but it is a reality and to deny including it in the conversation is actually doing a disservice to JPL. Wikipedia has been a positive place for JPL in regards to his health. He feels most productive when being able to edit here. To deny that would cause serious harm to a fellow editor. That being said, the community must also protect the integrity of the encyclopedia and I believe adding restrictions and conditions to JPL will not only accomplish that but will also be beneficial to him. What I genuinely request of my fellow Wikipedians is to please treat this situation with sensitivity. We are dealing with a real human being, not a robot, not a machine and not just a name on a computer screen. Please make sure your comments going forward are done so in kindness and respect for JPL as a human. I am in no way saying you can't speak the obvious according to the way you see it. Just that we can do so while realizing the complexity of the situation and respecting the individual we are discussing. --ARoseWolf 14:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  "... The conundrum we face as a community is the health aspect. I'm not discussing particulars or going into detail but it is a reality and to deny including it in the conversation is actually doing a disservice to JPL. Wikipedia has been a positive place for JPL in regards to his health. He feels most productive when being able to edit here. To deny that would cause serious harm to a fellow editor."

  Absolutely no.

  I am and have been a strong supporter of the idea that we need to remember that there is a person behind the username. And in my opinion, this situation is a mess.

  But it is up to JPL to manage their own health issues, whatever they may be, we are not doctors, and we can not (and should not be expected to) do that for him.

  So I'm sympathetic, but at the end of the day, JPL is to be held to be responsible for their own actions and their own choices. - jc37 16:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Jc37, If you have read any of my comments directed at JPL over the entire duration of this discussion and even a prior discussion here on AN/I, I have never removed the responsibility off JPL for his actions. However, I will not remove the responsibility of the community to act with kindness and understanding, of which most do so without having to be told but the fact that his talk page has had to be protected and the fact that a fake account was made to try and exploit upon JPL's situation to try an further get him in trouble, which was determined not to be him, has lead me to caution the community that we can not shy away from our responsibility as human beings. WP:AGF is nonnegotiable and it has no limits in regards to content. If this were a simple content dispute then the application would be simple. However, there is behavior and content issues and the only way to address them is to address them all. Sticking your head in the sand and saying that a person's health issues can not be a determinant factor in the behavior of a person is in-effect, denying its existence. I kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth or read into anything I have said as if I am claiming we should be doctors or manage his health. What we should be is humans and we should look at the human equation in its fullness. My call was to uphold policy but do so with understanding, civility and kindness in regards to JPL's health and status as a human being. That was not and has never been a blank check for which JPL can do anything he wishes. I believe that this AN/I discussion and the results has been eye-opening for JPL and the break he was forced to take was impactful. Only he can decide what he will do with what he has been told and shown. I choose to help him if he decides to call upon me or seek my advice. Many others have offered the same. --ARoseWolf 18:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  In much of what you are saying, you are preaching to the choir. I totally agree, it was merely the way in which you seemed to frame this as if we must allow JPL to edit because to not allow him to edit may adversely affect his health. To that I say: assolutely no. If Wikipedia is being used in that way, that has zero to do with us as editors or as a community. That may be between JPL and whatever health provider he associates with. But that has nothing to do with whatever decision-making we do here. - jc37 06:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

User:ARoseWolf, well-said on the kindness stuff. Would you care to voice some opinions on what areas you think John's use could be limited in a way that might be mutually beneficial to Wikipedia and to John? I think it would be beneficial for everyone if as many people are as specific as possible in terms of what we might like to see happen. (You and I have some similar thoughts, I think, and while I voted "oppose because" and you voted "support with" :) ) Good to see you again. Peace be with you! DiamondRemley39 (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

My apologies, DiamondRemley39. I was sidetracked by something off-wiki. It is great to see you as well. There really isn't much difference between your "oppose" view and my "support with" view from what I can see here. I respect everyone's opinion and I think there have been a lot of valid points. One of the things I wanted JPL to understand is that, while some of the actions like vandalism of his talk page and the trolling sock account meant to try and get him in trouble are concerning, the opposition to him being here is not unfounded. His actions have affected a lot of people negatively. The socks he created, which, though they didn't cause harm from what I have seen of their contributions, are a direct violation of trust that so many have placed in him, especially those that have defended him. It also indirectly led to the fake sock being given so much credence. Actions have consequences. I believe, if JPL is here for the right reasons then he should evaluate his editing and avoid the contentious issues like religion, among others, and by avoiding I mean even AfD discussions. Cut it out completely. I believe it would be wise for JPL to find a group of editors here willing to assist him with advice. No one should feel forced to intervene but if there are those who would be willing to offer advice then I think that can't be anything but a positive. Should JPL follow the guidance I think we will avoid a lot more discussions like this involving him. If he refuses to follow guidance then he may wind up here again and the community may have to ban him. I am trying to avoid that recourse and its why I have asked JPL to help us help him. That's a choice he has to make and it appears he is taking serious which I am thankful for. My goal has never been to silence people who think different than me, I don't care how different, positively or negatively, good or bad, we may think about something. I don't want you or anyone silenced. I've been there and I have realized we are not solo dancers in life. We can not be a symphony if we all play the same instrument. That being said, the disruption can not persist. That's why I have implored upon JPL to heed our advice here, even those he doesn't agree with. All of the points made here are made with reason. --ARoseWolf 19:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - colleagues, you are wasting your time supporting/opposing an unblock that already happened. This round began with a community discussion about a topic ban from religion based on personal attacks and other disruptive editing. It's not the first time; April 2021 was the most recent ANI thread involving personal attacks (and other disruption). During this discussion, JPL had a bad reaction and was blocked, and has now been unblocked. The next step isn't to argue about the block/unblock but to resume the discussion of the topic ban. If others agree this is the next step, perhaps someone should propose it formally. Personally, I don't think restricting JPL to Cat:1922 births addresses the issues raised in this month's ANI thread. Levivich 14:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Indeed. Since JPL's was initially a unilateral admin block, the admin is also able to undo it. Due to the fact that the earlier ANI was closed for compassionate reasons, a consensus to enforce a ban on the editor did not arise. I suppose the closer of this discussion will have to interpret "opposes" here as implicit supports for a site ban, and "supports" as implicit opposes against a site ban. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  And thus the compassionate block/unblock has turned a tban discussion into a siteban discussion. Levivich 15:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed. What will he be allowed to do and not allowed to do? For how long? Everyone needs clarity here, especially John. (Go to his talk page, he doesn’t know how he is supposed to use it at this time.) If John is to be successful, such arbitrary phrasing is likely to lead to trouble. He had talked about being on the autism spectrum before; however, all users deserve more specificity than this. Beyond the as-proposed issue: Socking to double-vote and perhaps to get around a likely block reveals an addiction to using this site. This is not some unbecoming behavior that can be chalked up entirely to frustration and is quickly forgivable when one is contrite (accusing someone of something one has a history of experiencing in the heat of a moment is; I can overlook that in light of the apology). But the socking is unethical, problematic, a red flag, of utmost concern. Outside of this website, this kind of deceit is the sort of thing one could lose credibility, licensure, and career over. It doesn’t matter how long the accounts existed. Are there other accounts? Will there be accounts in the future? John desperately wants to stay. His actions suggest he should move on. I would love to see him enjoy anything in the real world, or even something more creative online. His comments about his life being a failure, etc. are alarming. Anyway… I asked John on his talk page about his involvement in deletion point-blank; his reply suggests he is uncomfortable answering questions there and here because he is concerned about repercussions. Reading between the lines of what he said, he may be agreeable to this. He could keep going on with category work and perhaps more minor edits to articles and I’d be fine with that (though “minor” perhaps should be defined; I know there have been run-ins). A permanent ban from all AfD processes is a more than fair compromise. He is stuck on it enough to sock. 99.9% of what he does in AfD is prodding or nominating; anyone can do that. We aren't losing one of our better HEY researchers by taking him out of that space. (NOTE: John and I have probably been on the same page in AfD as often as we are opposed, and when we’re opposed, I generally can make an article pass muster, so I’m really more disappointed at the thought of losing his votes in the religious corporation space than I am threatened by the thought of his continuing here.) Socking must be met with a permanent consequence of some kind… or some of us will lose faith in Wikipedia. Can’t we iron out some specific terms? FYI, I would support his return if a full and permanent ban from deletion is in the terms. Per Morbidthoughts, Only in death does duty end, and others. Sorry this is so long! DiamondRemley39 (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from religion and article deletion (previously "oppose but might support with more appropriate specific conditions"). Indefinite topic bans from religion (all religions) and from all article deletion processes (including CSD and PROD, and project-side discussions about deletion) ought to be minimum, owing to the fact that JPL has on two separate occasions within the past six months created socks to avoid scrutiny and in the more recent case to evade a block to edit those topics. While some others in these various discussions have applauded JPL's devotion to Wikipedia, I see a level of fanaticism that is disruptive to the project: after being blocked, in two spurts totalling five hours of editing JPL made more than 80 comments on his talk page which were some variation of this begging apology, including "my life is unlivable", "I am sinking into despair", "I am not going to kill myself", "I always fail at everything", "I have spilled out my life in trying to make Wikipedia better", and including a handful that required suppression. But in amongst this flailing against a block he considered "like a death sentence" he nevertheless continued to ping editors to his talk page to start new discussions about LDS content that he disagreed with ([175][176]). That is not dedication, it's obsession: John is demonstrably unable to disengage from this topic. If he really only wants to edit articles about people born in 1921 and 1922 then fine, these restrictions shouldn't hinder him much but ought to keep him out of the areas he frankly can't handle. That being said, the unblocking admin's wrist-slap unblock, and their flippant and dismissive comments in this thread, shouldn't be held against JPL. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 16:14, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Good to know a lot of this, I suppose. But my block wasn't a CBAN and the unblock wasn't the TBAN, though I did intend on working on that component of it in consultation with the community. El_C 16:25, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from religion Levivich is correct above that it is a waste of time to express support for or opposition to unblocking. Johnpacklambert is unblocked. Everyone whose has paid attention knows that the recent disruption has to do largely with topics pertaining to the Salt Lake City church he belongs to. Right now on his talk page, he is going on and on about expatriate categorization for Gerrit W. Gong, a senior figure in the leadership of that church who was born in 1953 not 1921 or 1922. I think a clearly defined topic ban is necessary if there is to be any hope of this editor continuing to contribute to this encyclopedia. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:34, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose current unblock restrictions, support topic ban from religion - Category:1922 births and Category:1921 births would include centenarians and thus be covered under the longevity DS (which, for reasons I don't understand, is also listed at WP:GS, so I guess it's both a GS and a DS). When an editor has been disruptive in one area, restricting them to a DS area is a bad idea. Additionally, those categories include dozens of Latter Day Saints [177][178], which is the topic that started this round of ANI. The unblock conditions should address the issues raised in the ANI thread that led to the block, such as a TBAN from religion. Levivich 16:41, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Levivich, thanks for that analysis. It is interesting that Walter Gong was born in 1922 and is the father of Gerrit W. Gong, who Johnpacklambert is discussing on his talk page. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose current unblock conditions, support topic ban from religion A topic ban from religion is an absolute must. The socking has not been adequately addressed either.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• TBAN from religion indefinitely, formally log the voluntary 1922 restriction and call for a quick close. I appreciate Floquenbeam keeping their word and soliciting community review of the unblock conditions. The most recent flurry of inappropriate conduct was centered on the question of religion, and the archived discussion included evidence that this wasn't the first time. It's sensible for the community to protect itself from the further abuse that is likely if JPL continues to edit in the topic area. Some editors/admins note the drain that continued discussion is having on both JPL and others. JPL is communicating that the 1922 voluntary restriction will be helpful to them and formalizing such a restriction should help clarify the bounds. I'll be likely to support dropping the restriction in a while on appeal. Finally, continued discussion on this matter is clearly a drain on both JPL and the community; I encourage an uninvolved admin to be bold on closing this discussion quickly. Not now, but ideally soon. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Weak oppose religion topic ban (Involved) I'm a regular editor in the Mormonism topic area. JPL's moving and renaming spree was annoying and disruptive. I know. I spent nearly an hour reverting it. And I was shocked by his complete loss of objectivity...calling people bigots for using the word "Mormon" and such. That said, in my experience this kind of behavior is not normal for JPL. I think part of it may have been a negative reaction to stress or something. More importantly, I think JPL has realized he crossed a line and is committed to correcting course. He's been unblocked for 2 days now and is gnoming articles in the 1921 category or whatever, as promised, drama free. I hope after several months of productive editing on this tiny sliver of the encyclopedia he can eventually return to full editing. The bias is still a concern, but that's something that can be managed. Recognizing it's a problem is the first step. I appreciate having gnomes around who are both knowledgeable about the subject matter and capable editors. ~Awilley (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock without very stringent editing limits, particularly with regard to religious topics. JPL has an established history of religious hate speech off-wiki coupled with targeting articles relating to religions he disfavors on-wiki, especially the Roman Catholic Church. There's also his bizarre comments here, barely two weeks ago, declaring that the concept of Islamophobia "invented by the same forces that orchestrated mobs that killed over 200 people in direct oppostion to the right of people to draw certain cartoons" and that people who use the term support "physical punishment for apostasy". He seems unable to sustain rational discussion when religious ideas he disputes are involved. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 04:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - on the basis of socking. Will except an unblock in 6-months, if no socking has occurred between now & then. GoodDay (talk) 12:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock His presence on AfDs and CfDs is missed. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 12:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support unblock but also Support Religion TBAN as an add-on that, in a formalized way. I think the unblock was proper, I think the conditions were workable, and I think this discussion is malformed. We should, in general, be focusing on the TBAN proposals below and not on critiquing the behavior of an admin who was acting in good faith. If the unblock conditions are adhered to, I think it would be a perfectly fine outcome. But I do support the religion TBAN as a prophylactic measure. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Deja vu

So in reading all of this, I'm getting a strong feeling of Deja vu. The apologies, and the volunteering to limit editing to certain articles of a year-related category (which I don't think ended up happening in that case). I spent some time doing searches, but couldn't find what I was looking for. Maybe someone else remembers more clearly. I dunno if it would help bring insight to the current situation or not, but it just seems like an odd thing, the offer being so similar (in my memory, at least). - jc37 16:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• This also occurred to me, but I can't find anything either, and if my memory is correct it wasn't quite the same issue (I could be wrong, but wasn't that one to do with "YYYY in sports" or "YYYY in the United States" type articles?). Black Kite (talk) 22:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  I can't say for certain, I don't completely remember. I wish I did, because the similarities between then and now just makes something about all this to 'feel' disingenuous. It's funny, in my head I can see my computer screen with the text of the discussion in question, but not quite what all the text was (I think there were one or more cfd discussions involved?). But I do remember him protesting that it wasn't fair the things people were saying, that he felt he was just trying to say "x", and so on.

  The thing is, it's sometimes kinda true. Quite often these things with JPL are situations of "it takes two to tango", but all too often they either start with someone baiting him (typically in an effort to discredit his perspective while trying to push their own perspective in an xfd or rfc), or with him just saying something that is less than stellar, or making edits that are less than stellar (to put it kinder than I prolly should), or some combination thereof. I don't think the above proposals (the unblock conditions) are going to do much more than kick the can down the road (again), but I also don't think indef is necessarily warranted yet. I think there are solution possibilities, but no matter what they are, I am pretty sure JPL will feel they are "unfair". Anyway, that would be a whole new discussion I guess, and right now, people seem more concerned about the immediate situation. - jc37 02:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with the "Deja vu" feeling. We've had a fair number of "Last chance unblocks" that didn't work out over the years. Can't say any particular "one" comes to mind though. — Ched (talk) 02:48, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Totally, every time JPL ends up here it seems to be because they are incapable of dropping a stick, they're given rope and we end up back here a few weeks later—blindlynx (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• I will say this, if JPL is blocked again, that's it. Enough "last chances". I do not care how "vital" someone is to Wikipedia, you are NOT bigger than the project itself. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Final thoughts

Look, if an individual admin has done their research and still viewed my unblock to have been in error, I wouldn't have seen it as WP:WHEELWAR for the indef to have been reinstated (when I told Floq that they could re-block, that was not a trap). And, indeed, there may well be a lot of key history that I'm unaware of.

Still, I'd have wished to have gotten a chance to follow up post-unblock with JPL about, well, everything I'd previously noted to him. From the LDS issues (including about Mormonism, whose full and move protection first brought him to my orbit), to the attacks, to the socking and so on. I admit to have found it hurtful not to have even gotten a chance to try.

But, okay, if someone feels committed to doing something then that's that and there's not much more to say (and for me, to also do) about it now. That said, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that during JPL's block, I've had to protect both his talk and user pages due to repeated harassment. So, yes, I thought that the path forward could continue being charted with them unblocked. All things I'd have touched on had I been asked. But I was not ... asked. Oh well, spilled milk and all that. El_C 05:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

El C, I can't understand the approach you're taking to this discussion. You still have a chance to follow up post-unblock with JPL, and it seems you're doing so. You still have a chance to try. The path forward is currently being charted with them unblocked. You have been asked above to touch on all sorts of aspects of the block/unblock. Do you just generally disapprove of community discussion on a TBAN or other restriction? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Right. I don't understand the maudlin self-pity—what's preventing you from following up with JPL now that he's unblocked? MastCell^Talk 16:56, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Give me a chance to answer before twisting the knife, MastCell. Firefangledfeathers, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the block was for egregious personal attacks and harassment by JPL. That's it. As for my original intent of figuring out the right TBAN package: no, I don't want to do that anymore, not like this. And if the prevailing view is that that is a defect on my part, so be it. Finally, the various NOTHERAPY expressions here are ones I find particularly objectionable and I want no part of that. I really don't know what else to say. El_C 17:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think El_C's unblock was 100% appropriate. We don't want to get into a rut where we need to go to AN/I to overturn the unilateral action of a single admin (especially when the admin wants the action undone). I think Floq also did an ethical thing in allowing the community to finish its discussion on whether to impose a topic ban. I'd guess that discussion will finish with no consensus, but if people want to have it, fine. I personally prefer trying to resolve issues at a lower level, but accept things won't always happen that way. ~Awilley (talk) 17:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Though it's worth even less, I also agree that the unblock was appropriate. The "support unblock"/"oppose unblock" framing of the above debate is unfortunate. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I would take it a step further and say that I think Floquenbeam (talk·contribs)'s approach in particular left a lot to be desired. Yes, they closed the original thread because the situation warranted sensitive treatment, compassion and/or calm discussion with minimal drama, which is admirable. But the unpleasant taste left by reading the first posts in this thread was in my view caused entirely by Floquenbeam's ill-considered wording within the closure text and their subsequent exercise of unintentionally poor judgment. Their closure of the original thread noted: It is not possible that he will be unblocked without significant restrictions... I do not think a community ban discussion has, or is about to gain, consensus, but I also don't think unblock conditions are going to be hashed out now either. When/if unblock conditions are discussed, people will have an opportunity to comment. That is, there was no consensus on unblock conditions or bans, which made it within El_C (talk·contribs)'s discretion as individual blocking administrator to unblock if El_C was persuaded, but the wording of the text concurrently and inappropriately suggests that El_C cannot unblock without community discussion (that is simply not the case). A more considered closure would have swapped the promise with something like "Discussion on restrictions will resume at the time or shortly after the block is lifted"; that might have been worthwhile and generated less concern and frustration at the outset, though arguably, Floquenbeam could have left it at that too. In any event, even with the ill-considered text that was written, exercising sound judgment and "doing the right thing" in that scenario would involve Floquenbeam having a discussion with El_C individually about his desire to return to ANI to fulfil said "promise" (or indeed, seeking input about El_C's views on it prior to opening this thread as an unblock review) at the outset; I believe that level of courtesy and camaraderie is expected of administrators and would have generated a response from El_C which was far less "frustrating" to Floquenbeam, and in turn probably would not have resulted in Floquenbeam's unseemly response in this thread to El_C about "nonsensical comments", being a "douche" and "disrupting this thread" about their own unblock. (Lastly, my observations are certainly less pleasant, less disappointed and more wordy than El_C was in answering Floquenbeam's question at the outset of this discussion of what else they could have done, but personally, I'd prefer El_C's response over mine - but then again, maybe my comments are also somehow nonsensical.) Ncmvocalist (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist, while I appreciate the support, I'd really like to put this behind me. Yes, the oppose unblock !votes were weird to me, to say the least. At no point did I promise that JPL will remain blocked during a TBAN discussion phase. As I noted above, I used my discretion when blocking (not a CBAN) and I used my discretion when undoing my own block (not the TBAN). It just feels like a lot of confusion and tension followed for naught, but maybe I have too rosy a view of my own actions (probably). El_C 23:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Except for the last sentence, the comment was intended more as clearer feedback about Floquenbeam's approach rather than support for you specifically. I couldn't do that without mentioning you unless I did so indirectly (which would make the response more wordy), sorry. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for JPL - Biographical information

User:El_C has posted to JPL's talk page that they have withdrawn from this. So in some ways everything above is apparently moot now.

But from what I can tell, the community would like something done, and would like some sort of solution or resolution to these situations.

Ok, well for JPL, this means a tban related to biographical information (including but not restricted to BLPs). Full stop.

Yes, over the years people have complained about LDS, or other religion, biases, as well as actions with categories, and at XFD.

But biographical information is simply the main issue. And BLP editing is not a minor thing.

There are many many discussions concerning him and editing information on or about people, which go back many years.

Does the community care about the other things? Sure. That seems clear in the comments above. But most of the other issues fold back to biography-related editing. And besiides, to keep him out of various Wikipedia process discussions would seem to be counter-productive.

But I think drawing a line at biographical info should be something rather straightforward to enforce.

Based upon previous discussions, I would not be surprised if JPL found this to be "unfair", and I am aware that there are others who feel that some of his edits concerning biographical articles has been good content. That's great, but do good edits counter this amount of regular, consistant disruption? I believe this is the only way the AN/I merry-go-round is going to stop, short of a site ban. And, as yet, I don't support that.

If JPL can show that he can contribute positively on Wikipedia in other ways for a year at least, then maybe he could come back to the community and appeal this topic ban (per WP:BAN).

tldr version - topic ban User:Johnpacklambert from all biographical information on Wikipedia regardless of format (article, template, category, etc.). This includes project pages and process discussions like RFCs and XfDs. He may appeal this in no earlier than 1 year's time.

I hope this helps. - jc37 17:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support Until a better proposal comes along. Though it does not address sockpuppetry directly, it effectively does address some of the practical implications from the abuse of multiple accounts, namely the XFD involvement. It is better defined than the "birth categories until it's time to do more" proposal. Would prefer topic bans of an indefinite nature (I'm not saying a universal one, John), but a BLP [edit: BIOGRAPHICAL, INCLUDING DECEASED PERSON BIOS] ban for a minimum of one year is workable. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 18:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  A ban on all biographical information in addition to the current reverse Category:1922 births ban? That would reduce the number of articles John is allowed to edit from 8162 to zero. (Unless animals are included in the 1922 births category.) ~Awilley (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Not in addition to, but to replace that restriction. Wikipedia has many articles that are not on people, and John has experience editing them. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 22:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC).

• Support However, I believe this should be a permanent topic ban. I say this based on my experience with the issue at hand that lead to this (being one of the first editors JPL challenged on his controversial edits reguarding the LDS Church), and based on the slew of community input that has been given, which largely considers JPL's past AN/Is as a key issue for why his actions have been so unacceptable. I honestly do not know if JPL could be a productive editor of religious or BLP topics again, though he is quite convincing, which others have noted could easily be an attempt to game the system, and this is not something that I can rule out, especially given the socking. What I do know is JPL has been here again and again, and given the seriousness of his misteps, the only tolerable action in my view would be a permanent topic ban with no option to appeal. Since he wants to stay a part of the project, let him contribute only in areas he has not yet proven to be disruptive in. ––FormalDude talk 19:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Overly restrictive. And also targeting the single area where JPL has been doing allmost all his recent good editing, at least over the past few months. If we look at these so called "many many discussions concerning him" , then out of 34 AN appearances , most are either trivial, have nothing to do with biographies, or are just JPL's name appearing in a thread attacking someone else. This strongly opposed 2013 Topic Ban request isn't trivial, but unless one just read the top few lines, it fails to show JPL in bad light. This said, while I see JPL as a big net positive for us overall, I wouldn't oppose a 1 year topic ban from religion &/or XfD -there has been some long term disruption in those areas. FeydHuxtable (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  His block log dating back to 2015 tells a different story. ––FormalDudetalk 20:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Look again. 5 blocks is not that much for such a prolific long term editor. And there only seems to be two BLP related blocks. One was admitedly for a severe violation, though still an understandable mistake. The other was just for removing a "Living persons" cat from the mainspace page of editor Brucedouglas1925. (Who was obviously alive exactly one year ago from today, and allmost certainly still is now.) But seeing as the most recent source was from the 70s, removing the Cat wasn't really that terrible a call. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  When I said "many many discussions", I wasn't exaggerating. There have been discussions on talk pages, user talk pages, project pages and talk pages. There's been at least one rfc/u (from back when we used to do those) and even a controversy where outside media and User:Jimbo Wales was opining. These things have simply been going on a long time. - jc37 20:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  Fair enough - I struck "so called". Unless I'm missing something he didn't do anything that bad for the outside media controversary. Granted, the more elite types would have seen it as sexist in effect (if not intent) even at the time. But back in 2013 even some female editors were adding females to the "women tags", it was something that could been seen as boosting women. The Atlantic article that named JPL was actually partly defensive of him. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

  A large majority of prolific long term editors have never been blocked. The problem I have with this proposal is that it does not address the topic area of the recent disruption, which is religion, specifically the editor's determined opposition to use of the word "Mormon" which was commonplace usage until three years ago when the leadership of his church suddenly rejected that term which they had previously long embraced. His recent disruptive editing justifies a topic ban from religion and religious figures, not from all biographies, and accordingly oppose this specific proposal. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:39, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - a generalized topic ban on all biographies, including BLP's. If the proposal wants to be more topic specific, like biographies on religious figures, then it can be brought forward as a different proposal and evaluated on its merits. --ARoseWolf 20:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Conditional Support while biographical issues are a large part of his issues, I think we also need to consider LDS/Mormonism as well as that is what led to this whole mess. JPL is unable to edit neutrally on the church regardless of whether it's about LDS people or not. The challenge (which led to the indef) is he does not take criticism of his edits well, so imagine we'll be back here. Star Mississippi 20:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Tentative Conditional Support, although, much like User:Cullen328 and User:Star Mississippi (and multiple other users in the section above) have noted immediately above, I think the issue of a tban on editing LDS/religion in general broadly construed definitely needs to be addressed in definitive language and apart from any "ban on bios for a year and then come see us again". Heiro 04:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - as t-ban proposal is too broad. GoodDay (talk) 12:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - this is both too broad and also misses several areas of disruption. Try the narrower sanction first, and if the disruptive behaviour migrates to other topics then consider expanding the scope. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 12:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think the user has shown they are capable of editing in the narrow areas proposed in the informal unblock conditions, and there's no reason why we should unnecessarily prevent them from editing the 1921/1922 births area. That, to my reading, would be included in this proposal and therefore the proposal is too broad. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: unworkable. Few articles on Wikipedia don't contain biographical information. There's a sleight of hand being used here to switch between BLP and "biographical". TBANs need clear rules and clear methods of enforcement. I believe this is particularly important to autistic editors. It's prohibitively difficult to check that every page (not just article) you edit doesn't fall under the TBAN, and JPL does lots of rapid gnoming edits. If I can't work out how I would act if I were under this restriction, I cannot expect JPL to either. — Bilorv (talk) 18:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, this is so broad that I don't think this will help clarify the distinction between this editor's constructive editing and ability (or not) to refrain from problematic contributions - which is in any case the purpose of considering an editing restriction over more extreme measures. Ncmvocalist (talk) 22:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose You've got to give even the most condemned a fighting chance to survive! There's more than 1m articles in Category:Living people vs 6.3m articles on WP. Add in the deceased biographies, and it would be quite hard not to edit a biography. Unless you only worked on ant species in Rwanda or some such obscurity. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose "Biographical information" can cover so much on Wikipedia that this is unworkable.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  "Information about a person". A much more concrete definition than what I see in the thread below. Nearly anything can be associated with religion in one way or other. Which, I think, is being discussed below. - jc37 16:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Rationale

The idea behind this was straight-forward. JPL has had multiple issues around information related to people. He's even currently under BLP sanctions which do not appear to be religion-related. And by setting an appeal date, we give him a timeframe and a chance to work and show the community (on a longer term than just during AN/I discussions) that he is moving forward as a productive contributor.

This actually is something he has done in the past. It sometimes took the community to show him, but once he understood, he did get better about trying to follow policy/process in those specific instances.

Limited sanctions should always have a sense of focus and rehabilitation to them. (We say 'preventative, not punitive' for these very reasons.)

I look and see in the discussion below that there are those who really seem to see this as a mere bureaucratic formality towards what is apparently their end goal - a complete ban.

This all is really starting to look punitive, not preventative.

If that's the plan, then just indef him now. Don't slowly drag him through this seeming torture, just to ban him anyway. That just seems wrong. - jc37 16:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for JPL - Religion

• The specific proposal is: Johnpacklambert is indefinitely topic-banned from articles focused on, and edits related to, religion or religious figures, broadly construed.
  I have no comment on the above TBAN proposal and do not intend for this one to create mutually exclusive options. Editors might support both. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Addressing some comments below:

  • I wouldn't oppose an LDS/Mormon-specific TBAN, but I do feel there was adequate evidence presented in the last ANI discussion that JPL has been disruptive also in Catholicism-related areas.
  • I certainly don't intend for this potential TBAN to be a trap, and I'd be happy to get more specific if there's agreement on some qualifiers; all TBANs, even if narrowly construed, have the potential for abuse as described below.

  Firefangledfeathers (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support He needs to be topic banned from the topic area where he was most recently extremely disruptive and dogmatic. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:24, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support Whether sticking to 1922 bios or not, he's amply demonstrated that this is a subject area that is trouble for him. The community is entitled to some prophylaxis here. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 05:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - There have been more bio-related issues than just religion-related ones, which is why the proposal above. That said, I am not opposed to this proposal, and I agree that both proposals could pass and not be mutually exclusive. - jc37 06:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from LDS topics only. A ban from all religious topic is too broad in my opinion. I haven't seen any examples of JPL being disruptive in non-LDS related religious topics. I think the TBAN only needs to be for the Latter Day Saint Movement and related articles. My preference would be that the LDS TBAN is temporary (rather than indef). ––FormalDude talk 06:43, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support In my experience JPL let’s his personal association with the Mormon/LDS Church color his editing activities and votes at AfD inappropriately and expressions of concern are not enough to curtail this. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. This seems to be the root cause of the issues at hand. Demonstrating an ability to edit constructively outside of a wheelhouse that they hold personal connection to would be the best start to proving that being unblocked was warranted. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 11:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. If this will resolve the endless amounts of time and ink we spend on this one editor in the absence of something stricter like a re-block or indef, then I'm all for this particular TBAN. Softlavender (talk) 11:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - I have to oppose this proposal because it is too broadly construed. Religion is a huge topic. Almost anything can be considered a religion. There are pagan religions. He could inadvertently edit an article on someone who is linked to any type of religion and technically he would be breaking the TBAN. Anyone with an agenda would see the opportunity to get JPL into trouble. It's unfortunate that we have to look at it through this lens but it would be equally unfortunate to have went through all of this and still have JPL banned because of some inadvertent mishap. I believe we should focus a TBAN as tightly as we can in the specific areas that are an issue. --ARoseWolf 12:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I see your point on the breadth of merely "religion"; it does seem that LDS/Mormonism is the real crux here we could merely narrow it down to this if it were agreed upon. Ultimately the way I would want to see it done is in a manner that shepherds JPL away from areas of religious concern so as not to attract this same problematic editing pattern, if that takes a smaller rule to do so then the end result is what matters. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 12:43, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I hear your concerns, A Rose Wolf. I think this could be spelled out in more detail later--and in an official way--to protect John from drama. Certainly many biographical articles on older people may have mention of religion. But unless an article subject was in ministry, whether ordained or lay, or led a church or religious company, or is a journalist or essayist who wrote on religious topics, they should be fine. This should be apparent from categories, and if John finds out a topic he thought had no religious involvement is not religiously involved, he could play it very safe and revert his edits. Just some ideas. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

DiamondRemley39, we have been here long enough to know that wont happen and it wont matter if he reverts after the fact once someone comes to AN/I over even the smallest violation. It is putting an enormous amount of weight on admins to decipher intent and purpose of even the smallest edit JPL can make. Whatever is the result here will be the only definition that matters. If the community supports a general TBAN on any article that even mentions religion as a focus then that is what JPL will be held to and that is what broadly construed means. No nibbling around the edges of any topic on religion, not just lay people or ministers. The specific wording of the TBAN above includes the topic of religion and religious figures of any kind, type, association or otherwise and it includes all religions and its indefinite. I feel this is wrong and could very easily become more of a trap in the future. --ARoseWolf 13:09, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support - if that's the area that gets him/her into such trouble. PS - I'm an atheist by the way. GoodDay (talk) 12:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support - John has demonstrated a lack of objectivity in too many articles related to religion, specifically LDS articles. He and Wikipedia alike would benefit from his focusing elsewhere. To be candid, I'd miss John in religious corporation AfDs, but that's moot. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Edit: Would also be fine with an indefinite LDS topic ban, as that is where the trouble seems to be, and editing behavior outside of LDS but still within religion is better, in my personal experience with John. A Rose Wolf makes good points--this needs to be worded carefully. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support broadly as stated per my comments in the main thread. If the consensus is for a narrower ban then it should be worded carefully to cover both the LDS Church and Mormonism, since JPL has insisted that they are separate topics and has likened equating the two to hate mongering, part of their ongoing pattern of being completely unable to edit those topics neutrally. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 13:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Also, if consensus is for a narrower scope than "all religion" then it should also include Catholicism, broadly construed, as that seems to be John's go-to "whatabout" deflection. And a strict reminder that the community will not look favourably on testing the edges of the ban, so John should steer well clear of these topics. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 14:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support Avoiding areas that this user has such strong feelings about(religion) may remove the trigger for their problematic behavior. It may be the best way to keep an otherwise good editor. If topic ban is violated or the same behavior is exhibited in other areas then a long term site ban may be needed in the future. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 13:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Unconditional support. This is as much or more a problem area for him as biographical articles as he is unable to edit in areas of Catholicism or Mormonism with an NPOV. Also, this was my original request before it spiralled. Star Mississippi 13:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and per Star's original report. "Religion" is a better scope than "LDS, Mormonism, and Catholicism". The latter is too many enumerations, better to keep it simple. Levivich 14:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

extended conversation
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm not sure how making it all religion is simplifying anything. There are literally thousands of religions worldwide. That is my issue with this tban. We need more clarity, not less. Is it just lay people, ministers, graduates of a seminary, a self-taught shaman in Asia or a medicine man from the Modoc tribe of Oklahoma? This is a trap topic. One violation will get JPL banned and it is more likely to happen than not. He could avoid every subject for three years on Catholicism, Mormonism and the LDS and edit the article of a "priest", or "shaman" from South Asia and get banned from Wikipedia even if his edit is nothing more than a category change. This is the problem with broadly construed tban's on such large topics. --ARoseWolf 14:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Hell, based on this tban he couldn't edit the article on Tibetan bowls. They are an instrument used in Buddhist religious ceremonies. I don't use them for that purpose but they are a "religious" instrument. --ARoseWolf 15:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I don't see how "religion" is unclear. Is this article about a topic which a reasonable observer would (or might) consider to be a religious topic? Don't edit it. According to the standing bell article which covers Tibetan bowls, they are used in religious ceremonies, so that article is off limits (precedentially, only the portions of the article which cover religious use would be within scope, whereas their use as musical instruments would not be, but that is a very tricky argument and a slippery slope). We could say "organized religion" but then what counts as "organized"? If we have to start listing off every specific topic or even specific articles which John is not allowed to edit in order to ensure compliance, then John is not a suitable candidate for a topic ban and should just be site-banned. I don't see any reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to abide by a clearly worded restriction, even if it is very broad. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 15:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Reasonable is a subjective term as indicated by the different opinions stated here. What you see as reasonable may not be reasonable to me. This broad TBAN is a slippery slope to begin with. A more focused TBAN to protect specific areas that have been a problem and are the very reasons we are here having this conversation would seem more reasonable to me. LDS, Mormonism and Catholicism are specific topics that can easily be identifiable. Most topic bans I have seen are very specific so that there are less pitfalls and traps. --ARoseWolf 15:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC) There are no "pitfalls and traps" in avoiding religion-related topics. You read the article before editing; if you see mention of religion or religious topics, you don't edit. As Ivanvector said, if we have to create rafts of specific restrictions for an editor, that's evidence they shouldn't be editing at all. JPL has been here a lot, so it's not as if this is a first-time effort where gentleness is necessary. Grandpallama (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I believe quite a few here would vote to support a site ban on JPL and you should definitely propose that if you believe that reasonable. That should not be the intent or purpose of this TBAN and it should be as constricted and specifically worded as possible. As far as gentleness goes, it is not for you to decide how or when I apply it or advocate for it. I believe the pretense of that statement is highly inappropriate and grossly offensive. --ARoseWolf 16:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Conversely, I find the pretense that in addressing a longterm, problematic editor, our first concern should be the editor and not the encyclopedia highly inappropriate and grossly offensive. It's also tiresome to see the old argument that a TBAN is somehow a "trap" rather than a measure to protect the encyclopedia from an editor who cannot edit neutrally within that topic. Grandpallama (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC) What religious topic outside of Mormonism, LDS and Catholicism has JPL specifically edited on that is problem for you or that you view as non-neutral? So you understand I am not going to comment on your personal opinion of what you view as my "priorities" or "concerns" because that really isn't within your purview but I will discuss specifics of comments outside of that aspect. --ARoseWolf 16:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC) @ARoseWolf: I hear what you're saying and you've got me thinking, but I'm gonna push back a bit. First, that a TBAN'd editor can't edit an article related to the TBAN is a "feature" not a "bug". So no, if John were TBANed from religion, he couldn't edit the article about the Tibetan bowl used in religious ceremonies. I don't perceive that to be a problem, I perceive that to be the solution to the problem (the problem being John's disruptive editing on these topics). Second, the same thing (whether you call it a feature or a bug) would happen even if John were TBANed from something narrower, like, say, "LDS, Mormons, and Catholicism" (I'll call it "LDS etc."). The LDS etc. ban would mean he can't edit Utah, Salt Lake City, Brigham Young University, all of which are LDS/Mormon. Utah's basketball team, Utah Jazz, would be an edge case. Kyle Van Noy is an American football player, but also a member of LDS and played for Brigham Young, so his article is probably out of bounds. How about Girl Crazy (1997 film)? Seems fine? I don't know, it's made by Richard Dutcher, the "Godfather of Mormon Cinema." No matter what the topic area, there are these unexpected connections where making the determination of whether it's "in scope" is hard, and that's what "broadly construed" is all about. Which leads us to my third point: this isn't about John, it's about everybody else. I appreciate that you have a lot of sympathy and concern for John; I do, too, but I have more concern for everyone else, everyone interacting with John. When evaluating the TBAN, I think it'll be easier on the community to analyze whether something is related (broadly construed) to "religion" than "LDS etc.". Yes, it means more restriction upon John, but easier for the community. That's a trade-off I think is justified. Don't forget, this isn't like John is making some innocent mistake and we have to help him fix it. He has repeatedly made serious personal attacks against multiple editors. There have been multiple ANI threads just in the last six months about this. The purpose of the TBAN isn't therapy: the goal isn't to "heal" John or "fix" him or otherwise help him in any way. The TBAN is probation: it's an alternative to a full site ban (the point is to find something less than a full site ban that will prevent disruption), and the goal--the only goal--is to reduce John's disruption on everyone else. The TBAN gets lifted not when John is "fixed", but when John can demonstrate that it is no longer necessary to prevent disruption to others. So you've got me thinking about it, but I'm going to vote based on what I think is best for the community, not what I think is best for John. So, as of now, I still think "religion" will be an easier topic ban than "LDS etc." for the community to administer, and that's why I support the broader scope. If you think I'm wrong and the narrower scope will be easier on the community, I'm all ears. Levivich 16:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Also, consider that John's own proposal was to limit himself to only people born in 1922. This sanction gives him a lot more freedom. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 16:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I know what you intended by this comment but it comes off as a little insincere. Everyone knows if a personal sanction was enough we wouldn't be here discussing this. Also, putting it between parenthesis doesn't make it more believable. A personal ban can be lifted or put in place at the whim of the person making it. I ban myself from things all the time. It's a lot like those yearly resolutions so many people make. This TBAN is a community sanction and it will restrict JPL very far beyond the topics of his disruption. --ARoseWolf 16:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC) but I'm going to vote based on what I think is best for the community, not what I think is best for John Exactly. Grandpallama (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2021 (UTC) So it's about what is easier on the community now? On the face of it that would seem reasonable. Less headache, less oversight, less concern, less opposition. Is that not also a slippery slope. Hey, if I always chose the easier approach I wouldn't be here throwing out a different opinion. I believe we can protect the community while also placing restrictions on JPL in the very focused and specific areas that he has been disruptive. Does he deserve that? I don't know. What I don't want to see is us having to come back here and discuss an instance where he made a minor edit to an article that barely mentions anything religious, doesn't even have to say religion in any form, but someone feels is a violation of his TBAN because it says "broadly construed". This is about practicality as much as it is anything else. There are literally hundreds of thousands of articles that could fall into this category something about religion. I dare say more that do than those that don't. Why not get specific if it can narrow that approach? --ARoseWolf 17:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC) So it's about what is easier on the community now? Not easier, but what's best. Often, easier is best, but not always. Hey, if I always chose the easier approach I wouldn't be here throwing out a different opinion. That's an example of easier not being best. Sure, it'd be easier (for you and the community) if you didn't throw out a different opinion, but it might not be best (for the community), because your different opinion might help the community make a better decision than it otherwise would. This is about practicality as much as it is anything else. Completely agree. Why not get specific if it can narrow that approach? I believe figuring out if something is "religion, broadly construed" is easier, and therefore better (it'll save editor time), than figuring out if something is "LDS, broadly construed", "Mormonism, broadly construed", or "Catholicism, broadly construed". Simply because it's easier to determine if something is in one broad topic, than three narrower topics. Broader is easier on the community, and therefore better. Or so my thinking goes. Am I wrong? Levivich 17:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC) We may have very different opinions on what is right and what is wrong so I don't usually look at things from that perspective. Beyond that I don't believe I have the right to say you are wrong in your approach as much as we might disagree. I have been here and commented on many of JPL's AN/I discussions. I know full well he has negatively impacted others to the point where they probably don't care what happens to him. I can't say that I blame them and I can't say they are wrong for thinking like that. Your opinion is your own and I am not trying to change that, just offer my own such as it is. --ARoseWolf 18:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC) (edit conflict) Except for sanctions that we can enforce technically (i.e. blocks, or granular parblocks more recently) we have to trade off between "covers the disruption" and "is enforceable". Editors who have been around JPL a lot longer than I have have observed that the disruption is centred on the LDS Church but frequently spills out into other much more broad topics, and this suggests a sanction needs to be expanded in scope to "cover the disruption". I get the sense that religion isn't broad enough, but we have to start somewhere. In other words, assuming that JPL is going to abide by the restriction, a broader scope means it's less likely we'll be back here dealing with spillover in a month's time. As for the slippery slope at the edges of the ban (I agree with you here) we do not treat kindly editors who weaponize sanctions, there's a policy about that. If we get disingenuous reports here that JPL edited an article about a person whose father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate once attended a Mormon church, the person doing the reporting is going to be the one facing sanctions. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 17:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I wish I could have the same confidence but history has dictated otherwise. Nevertheless, its an issue that JPL will have to contend with and I suspect he will receive little leniency going forward for even a minor violation such as you suggested above. --ARoseWolf 18:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I would also support a narrower TBAN covering "Judeo-Christianity" or just "Christianity", either of which would cover LDS, Mormonism, and Catholicism (which, as I understand it, are the three relevant areas). Levivich 17:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd support that too, it's a sensible limitation of scope. If the disruption is centered around three specific branches of Christianity, it doesn't seem plausible that it's going to suddenly branch out to Jainism or Zoroastrianism. If it does we can revisit. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 19:22, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Right, I think "Christianity" and especially these three concepts is ideal as a scope, broadly construed. The only reason I said "Judeo-Christianity" and not just "Christianity" is that there are some folks who do not consider Mormonism to be a Christian religion [179]. (It's complicated). Suffice it to say, a lot of Christians don't believe Mormons count: Basically a few Evangelical traditions, but also the American Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian conferences. And Mormons have actually said they consider themselves as close to Judaism as to Evangelicals. Even Evangelicals would admit that Mormonism falls within the bounds of "Judeo-Christianity" as a religion which believes the Bible to be a holy text, believes in the divinity of Christ, etc. Even if they don't consider them formal "Christians." And of course, LDS-adherents and basically all Mormons self-identify as Christians [180]. — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

This is a very reasonable compromise. --ARoseWolf 20:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

It's actually not that hard to explain. New prophet plus new scriptures equals new religion. c.f. [181] for one take on it. Jclemens (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support per all above discussion. NW1223_{(Howl at me My hunts)} 14:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support TBAN for Mormonism, LDS and Catholicism, which seem to be the problem areas.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support TBAN for LDS topics, broadly construed. lomrjyo ^{(✉ • 📝)} 15:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support a long overdue religion TBAN. Grandpallama (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support as more workable than overlapping smaller bans in the problem areas of Mormonism, Catholicism, and Religion in America. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support a narrowed TBAN applied to Judeo-Christianity, to exclude islam, buddhism, sikhism, taoism, etc. But including Catholicism, Protestantism, and topics relevant to the LDS church and the broader topic of Mormonism. Support a broad TBAN against all religious topics, as a close second. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:50, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support This seems to be the main problem area for this user, and it would make sense to have a TBAN to prevent further disruption/timesinks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: unworkable. "Religion" is far too broad and amorphous. TBANs need clear rules and clear methods of enforcement. I believe this is particularly important to autistic editors. It's prohibitively difficult to check that every page (not just article) you edit doesn't fall under the TBAN, and JPL does lots of rapid gnoming edits. If I can't work out how I would act if I were under this restriction, I cannot expect JPL to either. — Bilorv (talk) 18:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Bilorv, what would you have the community do instead? — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 18:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Outline a clearly-defined sanction that everyone in the discussion thinks they would be able to understand and comply with themselves; and that sanction should be as specific as possible to JPL's methods of editing. Your narrowed TBAN suggestion is much better. You could go in a whole different direction and try to restrict the type of conduct that leads to escalation, like 1RR or a "no more than one reply in threaded discussion" kind of thing (but then I don't know enough about JPL specifically to form an appropriate proposal). — Bilorv (talk) 19:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  The issue here is that JPL seems to hold deeply personal beliefs about the LDS Church and Mormonism and isn't able to depersonalize when editing anything close to that topic, and he loses objectivity and can't deescalate whenever someone challenges his POV, which is unfortunately often. Personally I don't see how we can craft a restriction which permits him to continue editing those topics, and per comments on his talk page recently he seems to agree. He's separately under a "one AfD nom per calendar day" restriction (since 2017) and has done well under that (blocked once for violating it, for less than 48 hours) and so I think "he won't understand/comply with the sanction" is an unfair argument. He may be neurodivergent but he's not incompetent. I guess the other side of that coin is that if he can't follow sensible restrictions then he gets site-banned, and I don't think there's really anyone here who wants that. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 20:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Ivanvector: if what I communicated with my comments is that I think JPL won't be able to comply with sanctions because of his autism then my several rounds of rephrasing and copyediting my comment were in vain. I did not intend to convey that and I do not believe that. My argument was that clear and well-tailored rules are needed, and I said that I (a neurotypical person) would really struggle with obeying the sanction as currently described. The "one AFD per calendar day" restriction is immediately clear (just the pedantic word "calendar" rules out the only obvious edge case). This TBAN is not at all clear. If the restriction were reframed, say, "any article in any subcategory of Category:Religion" then it would at least be clear (albeit still prohibitively expensive to follow). As framed, I see several major points of contention that are unclarified and would be unsurprised by a quick indefinite block when JPL does something that falls within their understanding of the TBAN's allowances, and maybe even several admin's, but not by the blocking admin. — Bilorv (talk) 18:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as currently framed. I agree with Bilorv. Any restriction on JPL should be so closely tailored that both his and everyone else's understanding of it is the same. He and I recently had a friendly discussion on his TP after he'd expressed puzzlement as to why anyone should mistakenly write 1922 instead of 1933. It might be obvious to you, but it wasn't to him. On the other side of the coin, we do not want his enemies crying "Gotcha!" and dragging him here should he accidentally step over the mark.

  Excess detail will help no-one. I tentatively suggest "Christian religions and people closely associated with those religions". That would solve some problems both of breadth and of over-specificity. It would allow him to edit (especially, to gnome) articles about people which mention their beliefs, but which are not important towards their notability. Narky Blert (talk) 19:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  • Narky Blert, I don't think talking in terms of "his enemies" is warranted here. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Propose another word, if you will. The people I have in mind are the WP:GRAVEDANCERS who infested JPL's UP and TP during his recent block. Narky Blert (talk) 21:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Narky Blert, gravedancing troll LTA sockpuppets are not just Johnpacklambert's enemies. They are enemies of all of us and of this encyclopedia, and any such nonsense would gain no traction here at ANI. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Narky Blert, I counted two socks on his talk page and one sock on his user page; all, no doubt, the same editor. (That's actually very, very little, considering the exposure this has gotten.) All had CU run on them and if that delivered an "enemy", I'm sure it was blocked. This troll is not the kind of editor who is going to be someone calling "Gotcha" as if they were a real editor. In fact, that thought is so far-fetched that I am wondering how you could seriously think that this was a real opportunity. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support but I don't mind a Christian tweak. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support a narrowed TBAN applied to Judeo-Christianity (or just Christianity) My personal view largely matches Ivanvector's. If we're going to exclude JPS from LDS which he's passionate about, I'm not sure a general Religion ban would be much more onerous. Yes the trap potential is there, per religion still permeating so widely. But I agree with Ivanvector about JPS's competence, and (mostly) his assessment that the community is too decent to punish JPS for the inevitable minor violations. That said, RW, Shibbolethink etc strike me as insiteful editors - perhaps they are right that a more focussed Tban is for the best. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support either all religions or the more specific Judeo-Christianity area. For some reason or another, their editing in this area is disruptive, and well this seems like a good attempt at preventing that disruption. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support narrowed to Judeo-Christianity per above. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:50, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. It's clear that this is a problem area for JPL. I don't want to see JPL re-indeffed, this seems a good compromise. -- Mike 🗩 00:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Weak support a topic-ban narrowed to Judeo-Christianity, but... I guess my query is whether articles like this one (about someone who taught at a Jewish Community Centre) or this one (about someone who wrote about Secularization in Multi-Religious Societies), or this one (about someone "prominent in her efforts to rebuild the Catholic Church in China") would be caught up in either version of the topic ban? JPL has made largely innocuous edits to each since being unblocked (in an effort to establish he can be productive). But his typical editing pattern seems to consist of rapid-fire categorisation until he stops to read something, stays to fix it a bit, and then moves on. I have to query the value of sanctions that force a substantive change to JPL's editing pattern so that he can diligently assess each and every article for indications that it might covered by his broadly construed TBAN. Why not just let him focus on the one category he is currently interested in for a while? (I did advocate for expansion to 4-5 specific-year categories on his talk page). St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Surely the answer is to be found in what part religion plays in the person's notability. I haven't looked in detail, but the third example above (Audrey Donnithorne) self-evidently would fall under the ban based purely on the quote given from the article's lead ~ anyone whose notability depends on efforts to rebuild the Catholic Church would naturally fall under such a ban. As for changing editing patterns, aren't we all supposed to be diligent in assessing our edits? What difference if JPL needs to assess them with regard to a ban? Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 08:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Absolutely, but I suppose that's easier for those of use who wouldn't be subject to sanctions for making a mistake. If I include a factual error I can go back and rectify it. I can re-write the same paragraph 17 times before being happy with it. And I can drive-by tag a bunch of articles regardless of what they are about (and then go back and fix my mistake if I make an error). But I recently clarified that even talking about the subjects covered by a topic ban, with admins, to rectify damage done by someone else, was considered a breach. So I imagine all of those articles could be interpreted as being covered by the ban. I just think it will inevitably lead to dozens of editors watching JPL's edits and at the first mistake, we'll be back here again (again!). This is supposed to be about getting everyone back to productive editing, including JPL. I'm not sure this proposal will achieve that, but there seems to be support for it. St★lwart¹¹¹ 09:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This was my biggest concern going forward. JPL's disruptive editing, thus far, took place in the natural course of conversation. It's not like he was trolling along looking for ways to be disruptive. He allowed his emotions to get the better of him during conversations and in his editing. Such a broad topic ban is basically a delayed site ban. It has nothing to do with intelligence or ability. We are asking a human being to never make a single mistake in editing or discussing anything related to one of the most broadest subjects on Wikipedia. And with it we are inviting other editors to watch him for the slightest mistake so they can drag him back here for more punishment. To this point, it has been a legitimate reaction to a disruptive editor. This ban, as it was worded, doesn't just cover obvious subjects but also subjects at the very edge of the periphery. He could literally be in violation for discussing the birth or death date of an individual that attended a religious institution, even if their focus was not religion and they didn't pursue that in life, and even if the institution doesn't clearly define itself as religious. Baylor University is a private university in Texas. It is operated by the Baptist church. According to this broadly construed ban he can't even discuss anyone that attended that university. Nothing in Baylor's name indicates they are a religious institution. This is what Bilrov is talking about when they say that JPL and the community needs to know what the details are of such a ban. --ARoseWolf 12:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you may be overly broadly interpreting the WP:TOPICBAN scope. It would cover any edits about those persons where the edit was related to their involvement in religion. But not in mundane facts about their life. a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic, as encapsulated in the phrase "broadly construed". (emphasis mine) — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 12:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You've emphasised the wrong bit: the point is all pages ... broadly related to the topic, so that edits that are not about religion can fall afoul of the ban. Any of the three pages (in their entirety) given by Stalwart11 could fall under the TBAN, or not do so (except that the third is pretty blatantly under it), depending on which admin makes the decision—and crucially, JPL is not permitted to discuss whether any of the three articles fall under it. — Bilorv (talk) 18:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe they are allowed to ask for clarification on their TBAN? Of the Admin in question? If it's a super complex case I think it's supposed to come back here, but I think if it's relatively simple the implementing admin is supposed to be able to assist with that. Am I wrong about that? It's been my experience with other people's TBANs. — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 18:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I mean, in this case (and many others) the admin in question would simply be implementing the will of the community. While holding a mop comes with more responsibility, I don't (personally) believe that should extend to constantly re-adjudicating the original context of a ban to determine scope on a case-by-case basis. If it's too complex for an admin (or the community) to agree on its application (as indeed those three random examples suggest it might) then we should probably default to the proposal suggested by JPL himself (and provisionally accepted by the unblocking admin). In the end, JPL's conduct will determine if he can return to unrestricted editing (regardless of the scope of any ban). I don't see the value in making this more complicated that it needs to be, whereas I see merit in his choosing the length of his own WP:ROPE. St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support either full religious ban or narrowed Judeo-Christian one. Should help JPL and the community in avoiding further conflict. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 08:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support At a minimum a full religious topic ban (although I will again say this is hardly the limit of JPL's disruptiveness). The idea that a ban limited to judeo-christian specifically would actually be worthwhile is just setting up for wiki-lawyering later on. Its laughable the idea that given the chance JPL will be productive/not distruptive about religions that are not Judeo-Christian. When JPL holds, by any standard, views that are extremist both about their own and other religions. I am pretty confident that the Buddhists wont want him touching their articles either. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe discussing the merits of the personal views of another editor are where we want to go as a community. Discussing edits is one thing, attacking personal views is another entirely. --ARoseWolf 18:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Buddhists owned any articles on Wikipedia, or that anyone did... or that we make decisions based on what we assume members of a group believe about articles of particular interest to them. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 18:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Has the user in question showed any disruptive behavior in articles or on talk pages related to these other religions? if not, I don't think we should go around pre-emptively TBANning people based on what we suspect may become an issue. In the absence of evidence. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Shibbolethink, I had asked you a similar question in a comment but rescinded it after seeing you post this question. It is a valid question and I asked for diffs earlier in the conversation because I cant find where he may have been disruptive on article related to other religions except LDS/Mormonism and Catholicism. Maybe someone will provide them. --ARoseWolf 18:54, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The only thing that comes to mind is John's questioning of the (if I recall correctly) non-policy-but-precedence-set blanket notability of bishops of Catholic and Protestant (exclusive of LDS, and we won't get into its classification here) faiths. He works on and sometimes nominates such articles for deletion when they basically serve as little more than a Wikipedia-as-directory listing when they are unsourced or poorly sourced. That is generally met with significant pushback. For what it's worth (nothing, really), I agree with him on the need for a real standard on this issue and appreciate his more critical thought on the issue. But that's one example of behavior that some would consider disruptive. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 19:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Questioning something is considered disruptive? I've questioned lots of things on Wikipedia. Surely it must have been the way he questioned it, like did he make disparaging remarks, and not the questioning itself. But isn't he already limited in AfD nominations? --ARoseWolf 19:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I suspect this is easier to show than tell. See the recent AfD on William Thomas Larkin. I believe there have been other articles, but I have neither the time, nor the interest, nor still the need to dig them up, as I think this covers it. Some people go for the essay/not policy of WP:BISHOPS and others don't believe every bishop ever of the 2000+ Catholic diocese are a) by default notable and b) should remain in Wikipedia even if sufficient sourcing is not provided. Now, that is my own summary based on my experience in bishop AfDs. I am not saying I could draw both conclusions from the Larkin AfD. Just context. So, that's why *some* *might* consider his work in one religious, non-LDS space disruptive. I disclose it here because I read the question and had some evidence to shed light; it doesn't mean I find such work of his disruptive (for the record, he nominated based on policy and was not out of line in the Larkin nom). To answer your other question, John is limited in number to one nom per day, but, I believe, not the topic of the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DiamondRemley39 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, DR. I really hope no one thinks that AfD was disruptive because I have about a million more that would be considered uncivil if that was disruptive. It appeared to me to be a back and forth discussion. Should we really be punishing editors for nominating at AfD when it is policy based, even if we believe faulty application of policy is involved? I'm sure there are better examples of disruption and incivility is intolerable but I don't see an example of either in that particular nomination. I wouldn't call it disruptive if he nominated every bishop ever known to the Catholic church. At the same time, I wouldn't call it disruptive if he nominated every chief of the Cherokee people either, so long as he thought he was going by policy and provided said policy as he understood it. I digress, it is only one example. I'm sure there are other examples that are actually disruptive. --ARoseWolf 20:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

_{It wasn't. I was the one who suggested it be closed per WP:SNOW and I did so because at the time we were dealing with another AFD at DRV which had to be overturned because of JPL's conduct. I thought it easier to rule a line under (or through, as it were) JPL's conduct that week and move on. But nothing about that particular AFD struck me as disruptive.} St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:29, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

ARoseWolf, my perception is that Johnpacklambert is consistently inclusionist about LDS Church officials and consistently deletionist about the officials of other churches. A long pattern of that is disruptive in my view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cullen328 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with your assessment, @Cullen328, from my perusing of his past conflicts as shown in his talk page history. That's part of why I think the TBAN should cover all judeo-christianity, but probably doesn't need to extend to non-abrahamic religions, and probably not even to Islam. But I think it probably should cover protestant christian denominations as well as catholicism and mormonism. And probably also cover judaism as there are many ways in which LDS doctrine associates itself with the early church (e.g. gnostics) and jewish history. See: Judaism and Mormonism. Compare this to Islam and Mormonism. I guess I wouldn't be opposed to an entire TBAN on abrahamic religions, but I would prefer as narrow a scope as possible. — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 21:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I assume this is Cullen and I apologize if it is not. I appreciate your perspective. Mine is different. If we decided that someone was disruptive just because they had "inclusionist" views on one topic and "deletionist" views on another (honestly, I'm not even sure why we still use those terms) there wouldn't be very many editors left at Wikipedia. It is just an AfD. One of the first lessons I learned about Wikipedia is if my favorite subject has to have an article on Wikipedia in order for me to feel legitimized, and I really hope JPL is looking at this because it applies to him too, then maybe I need to evaluate why I am here. I love articles on American Indians because that's my heritage. I remember being caught up in AfD's over about twenty articles on the Sioux people. I vigorously fought for those articles and we saved some and lost others. There was so much incivility thrown around that I realized it wasn't even worth it. The assumption that certain editors were here for dubious reasons and just being disruptive by nominating something they felt didn't belong felt so wrong to sit through and entertain. If I have to fight that hard then why am I here? You can nominate every article I care about and I'm still going to be who I am and I am still going to be here and I promise you that I will not view the nominators as disruptive just for that reason. Incivility and edit warring and socking are a different topic altogether but that isn't even being discussed at this point. Maybe it should, I don't know. I will never agree that a person's view and actions based on policy, even if misguided, is solely defined as disruptive. I'm yielding the conversation because I feel I have said enough and others opinions matter too. I was just responding to yours specifically. --ARoseWolf 21:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I apologize for failing to sign that comment and thank the bot who signed for me. Cullen³²⁸Let's discuss it 22:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Beep boop. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Ultimately, ARW, I think the question is "what solution can we find that prevents JPL from being his own worst enemy, and that also protects Wikipedia in the most comprehensive way." Questions about JPLs motivations can help us get there, but I don't find them very convincing. No one truly knows what evils lay in the hearts of men. (or what angels). I very much do not like hypothesizing about the minds of others. I just want us to look at his past disruptions, figure out what pattern there is, and prescribe a solution which prevents those from recurring in the most targeted way possible. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support per above --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 02:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support a full ban from all religion topics, indefinitely, with no appeals to be considered for a period of not less than two years from TBAN start. Jclemens (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Reaffirming my earlier comment. A TBAN on "religion" would be too broad. It would, for example, preclude removal of the deprecated religion= field from {{infobox}}es. From what I know of JPL, he would need a precise definition to enable him easily to distinguish between allowed and forbidden areas, and "religion" does not do that. Narky Blert (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Since religious topics have been JPL's problem area, removing him from these topics gives him the best chance of continuing to contribute. Cbl62 (talk) 05:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support with the understanding that after an indefinite period proving his ability to improve articles in the non-religion space that he be allowed to return. Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Requesting a close

I think this has gotten to the point where it's pretty clear the result. I might be biased but I think we need a WP:CLOSE here so the community can move on and get back to working on the project instead of debating about the number of angels on the head of a pin or whether this user should be able to tell us about that number! — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It often seems that the length of time a discussion runs is inversely proportional to the obviousness of the result. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I also think a close now would be best. If it helps, I support whatever brand of religious TBAN the closer determines best matches the consensus here. Constructions as narrow as just LDS/Mormonism to as broad as my proposal are all fine with me. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:48, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's time for a close--and in the light. I hope the administrator(s) involved in the closing will post a clear overview of constraints for John and for all. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• I thought we didn't do RfC/User anymore. Well what it this then. It's the job of the admin corps to decide whether to block or unblock. The admin corps has IRC or whatever people use now, let them discuss it. There's a reason we don't do RfC/User anymore. Oof people complain about how stressful an RfA is, this is so much worse. FWIW I support letting the guy edit. The Wikipedia is not a respecter of persons, but come on -- it's a website -- probably ephemeral -- and hobby. Balance that versus the life human being who's trying to get thru his pilgrimage here and contributing here is helping that a lot. Be kind. Even ExxonMobile allows for individual cases when a person has a condition. Should we be meaner and harsher than ExxonMobile.

I set up this fellow with the idea of doing a positive pledge (random narrow place to edit) as this is much easier to follow, and for other people to check, than a ban on certain topic areas. (I suggested (at random) working only in Category:Calabar which needs much expansion, but the guy chose 1921 births instead, and fine,

I'd like to see if "Restriction to only topic Y" could be a better approach than "Ban from topic Z", for difficult issues where the editor's career is on the knife-edge. I think it might be easier for the editor to stay IN someplace rather than OUT of an attractive place [for a probationary period might last even a year say]. At least it's new idea (I think) so let's try this test case and see.

I'll be spot-checking and if he edits outside 1921 births [for several months anyway and with eplicit permission], then that has to be the end and he knows that. If it happens, the Wikipedia will survive. Herostratus (talk) 21:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, one of the reasons RFC/U was abolished, was due to the pile on effect. I remember, as years ago, I had an RFC/U done on me. It was like trying to climb out of a hole, with the sand falling in each time you tried. GoodDay (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

That's news to me. Can you give me a link to the change in ANI policy? I just wasn't aware that community input didn't approach closure... Also importantly, I'm not asking for a close in the RfC sense. I'm asking for a close because the community wants to know what's gonna happen here. Is that what is meant by an RfC/user? — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 21:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

"I just wasn't aware that community input didn't approach closure...". Well now you are, cos I'm telling you. It's the ANI board, not the "let's have a bunch of rando editors kick some hapless mook around" board. The admins allows non-admins that aren't party to a situation to chime in. They don't have to, but it's worthwhile more often than it's not, so they do. But here, it's not helpful.

Anyway, yes what we're seeing here is pretty much what RfC/user was. Sometimes RfC/user was useful, but it was shut down because a lot of times it wasn't and was just a lemon-squeezing party and just not an OK way to treat most editors. Still true. Herostratus (talk) 02:33, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Am I wrong in thinking your sentiment here conflicts with WP:CBAN? If not, how is CBAN different? — Shibbolethink^(♔♕) 03:06, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Shibboleth, much as these discussions can be distasteful, community banning is part of the banning policy and there has to be a mechanism for that to be executed. ANI discussion is one of those mechanisms. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Herostratus has got it completely wrong. CBAN’s, topic bans, etc etc are regularly determined by the community here (not just Admins). Indeed, that was part of the rationale for getting rid of RfC/Us - ANI was one of the fora that could take that up in lieu. DeCausa (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hero, John is not the only human being who's trying to get thru his pilgrimage here. Your post makes it sound like the community just called John to the carpet and started evaluating him in a vacuum. Of course John, a human being, is more important than a website. I believe in "people over pages," but that is not the situation here. The community is not evaluating John; the community is evaluating John's interactions with other editors. And those other editors are human beings just like John. And while John is more important than a website, he is not more important than the other people who use the website. Sanctions are to prevent disruption not to the website, but to the other people who are using the website. That includes people who John accused of engaging in hate speech because they wanted to use the word "Mormon," for example. They shouldn't have to put up with that sort of thing from John or anyone else, and we should have as much sympathy for them as we do for John. I support John editing here, too, but I also support a TBAN to protect others from John's behavior, and that doesn't make this an RFC/U, and it doesn't make me meaner and harsher than ExxonMobile. Given that this isn't a new issue but one that's been going on for years, it's actually downright nice that the community isn't just throwing John out, but is instead investing significant time and effort into coming to consensus on some compromise that allows John to continue editing. Give credit where credit is due. This thread is a testament to how much the community cares about John, because if it didn't, he'd be indef'd already and no one would be talking about it. Levivich 04:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I tried to stay away from the discussion as much as possible over the last week because, well, I've made my opinions known, they haven't changed and to have someone constantly repeating their position would be grating for everyone. I'm sure Hero and I agree on a lot of things and we probably disagree on a lot of things. I am not going to pretend that everyone that commented on this case likes John or wants the best for him. Its not like they wish harm or anything either. I think several are apathetic to anything related to him or really anyone else. I'm sure quite a few think the community should have globally blocked John by now. There might even be some that think I have no business here either. We all have opinions and when you have someone that has been before ANI so often over the last few years its bound to come up. The fact is his disruptions have affected other human beings and that should be acknowledged. We can acknowledge that while also acknowledging that John is human and is affected differently than a lot of people here when it comes to confrontation. But John is intelligent and he can figure out how to respond in a different manner and he can take instruction and learn from it as almost every other human being is capable of doing. The approach may be different and I think that's where the divide is going forward. I have never advocated against a TBAN. I think the subjects of the LDS, Mormonism and probably Catholicism but especially those articles related to Catholic bishops should be off limits to John. They have been red button topics for him and have directly resulted in the AN/I cases in which he is the subject.

Many don't feel it is the community's responsibility to find a remedy in which John is able to edit here and the community is safe from any of his potential disruptions. That's a fair observation. I've heard it time and time again. We don't matter. All that matters is the encyclopedia. If that's what someone believes then I expect them to look at this discussion and the evidence and say John should have been long gone by now. My views may be different but I can respect that. I also believe, as pointed out by Levivich, that the very fact that we are still discussing it and working through a solution is testament that not everyone here holds that view and they do want John to continue editing and they do see the value in his positive additions while criticizing his disruptions. Hopefully John is watching this discussion even though he has heeded advice not to comment here. If he is then I hope he recognizes what we have just pointed out. The community, even those advocating for a full TBAN on "religion", still values his positive contributions. What can not continue is the disruption. I also hope he recognizes that the people he affected with his disruptions and aspersions are human beings and though I have advocated for him, I have also advocated for them. I believe his apologies are sincere and I believe this particular case has been eye-opening for him. As a member of this community I, like others among us, have decided to try and help John, through dialogue, but also hold him accountable for his actions.

We don't have to argue amongst ourselves. We don't have to think the worst of anyone here in this discussion. All points that have been brought up are valid. That's why we are still here discussing them. We are a community trying to find the best solution among many options and its very difficult to find that solution sometimes. The one thing we can not do is give up our faith in the guiding principles of this community. True civility is not found when we agree on something. True civility, one of the pillars of this community, is found when we not only disagree but do so passionately and emphatically. --ARoseWolf 12:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• I have avoided commenting on the substantive issue here (rather than in this meta-discussion subsection) because more than enough people have done so without my involvement. Surely its best for everyone involved (John, his targets and the rest) that this should be closed as promptly as possible. And, for the record, I must be going soft in my old age, because I agree with User:Levivich. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:04, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

ZeusAmmon1

This user did posted a message falsely claiming I am a Greek editor and containing another personal attack because I disagreed with him.[185] Then he admitted there is an organized editing community on Turkey-related Wiki articles.[186] Later, he claimed that there is an Armenian trolling group.[187] Lastly, he said that my profile is "full of being how great being greek" and claimed that I am being "paid" for this.[188] This shows clearly a WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. Best regards.--V. E. (talk) 15:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You litterly miss understood everything. How did you manage it do it? And i didn't ask you for do you gettin paid for "full of being how great being greek". I litterly said do you get paid as moderator. What is wrong with you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZeusAmmon1 (talk • contribs)

(Non-administrator comment) Please refrain from making personal attacks as you did here. Wikipedia is a volunteer effort, and moderators are not paid as you claim; as such we are to focus on the edits and not the editors. If there is a content dispute regarding information on the Turkish War of Independence page, please use that article's talk page to discuss—with reliable sources—any changes necessary, but do not resort to insulting editors you disagree with. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 15:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Which part do i attack him? Greek nationalists accuse me of being an organized nationalist troll and when I answered i get warning but your beloved mod not getting one. This is literaly called as hypocrisy sir ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Accusing someone of having "brain seizures" simply because you disagree with them is clearly a personal attack. If you do not have content to contribute to the article in question it may be better to walk away from any argument rather than engaging in insults. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 15:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

He twist my words and you're focused about i said "brain seizures" , since when brain seizures is an attack? ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 15:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Just minutes after this incident on Talk:Turkish_War_of_Independence#Possible_Turkish_Nationalist_Troll_Network_and_Meatpuppetry_Case, a highly-followed, aforementioned Twitter account shared a post on this event.[189] This user is clearly WP:CANVASSING.--V. E. (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Again with the ethnicity stuff? I can see some TBAN's or even main space bans coming in the future over this mess. ZeusAmmon1, you knew you were insulting and attacking when you accused them of having "brain seizures". You meant it as an attack because they were frustrating you. But you allowed that frustration to turn into a personal attack rather than walking away (that is a thing). Canvassing isn't cool either and I hope it stops but I'm not confident it will. The content issues should be discussed on the article's talk page. I wish people would just forget what they think they know and open their ears and eyes and pay attention to what they are saying and doing. Attacking someone because of their ethnicity is so ridiculous. We all come from somewhere so we all have an ethnicity. Yours is no better than anyone else's. Neither does mine qualify me to edit any more than yours and it sure doesnt make my edits more relevant than yours. The same goes for everyone else. Just stop it already. --ARoseWolf 16:13, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Apparently he didnt say anything about voting. He says look what wiki mods are doing. If you're not understanding Turkish why still trying to accuse someone for WP:CANVASSING. ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 16:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The Brain seizure part and the repeating of it jointly with hypocrisy seems to merit some admin action. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You keep saying ethnicity but it's nothing about ethnicity ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 16:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The diffs pointed out by Paradise Chronicle: "Do you have brain seizures or what?" and the clarification that only makes it worse: "And "Do you have brain seizures or what?" part simply means your hypocrite and pretending differenly." are outright personal attacks which are not allowed on Wikipedia. A personal attack does not have to be an ethnic slur.--Eostrix (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 16:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

ZeusAmmon1, I am assuming you are making a serious statement in response to my comment. "I am actually a socialist. And you're a greek nationalist." If it had nothing to do with ethnicity then why did you bring it up to them? --ARoseWolf 17:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad finally someone asked properly. That person took a screenshot and said, "Look, Turkish nationalists gather and trolls like this, sometimes by deliberately making wrong translations." I felt the need to respond to this because I am neither a nationalist as he mentioned, nor am I a member of any group, nor am I trolling. I didn't even have a conversation with the person he called as this person is organizing. The person in that account, whom he refers to as a nationalist, also says that he is not a nationalist. And when I told that he pretended like I say quite opposite. Anyway as a response I told him I am nationalist but apparently, you're nationalist. But when I called him a greek nationalist he acted as greek is a slur but it's not a slur and never was. Dunno why but he acted weirdly and i asked "Do you have brain seizures or what?" why do you make this? Yet again he acted like I say brainless or etc. Also when I simply asked does moderator getting paid? (which I asked as a serious question) and his response was creating Adminastor notebooks and wrote this "Lastly, he said that my profile is "full of being how great being greek" and claimed that I am being "paid" for this.". This is only one of the things he purposely typing false things. And about "Later, he claimed that there is an Armenian trolling group" part I am not claiming I do have some proof and her tweets still stands here. ^[1] on her profile you can see "Co-founder of #WikiArtsakh". This is their group and they're breaking COM:NPOV. ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Your message is factually incorrect, I did not call you nationalist nor troll. Besides, you thought that I was Greek with prejudice; because, as I said earlier, I am not Greek which means you label people as Greek when you disagree with them. Secondly, you are falsely assuming random Wikipedians on Twitter to be a part of troll group. In fact, they are not even editing English Wikipedia as it is apparently seen in the image. AFAIK, this misinformation was spread by the same Twitter user I mentioned earlier; you shouldn't take him seriously as he publishes incorrect information. The only part you are right is me incorrectly linking "paid moderatorship" to being Greek; however, that's irrelevant to the personal attack you did. Lastly, I did not mention the other PA which does not relate to ethnicity explicitly, because, it was already an obvious one.--V. E. (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• This whole discussion has gotten weird. I'm suggesting to a potential closing admin to close the discussion with a warning to both editors. WP:AGF is non-negotiable. WP:CIVIL is non-negotiable. Both probably need to take a break or both might end up with a TBAN, or more, and before you say anything, Visnelma, we can all see your talk page and we know you've had some issues with civility in the recent past. We need to take our own medicine sometimes, self included. Let's keep it real. Overall I believe a request for both to take a more civil tone with each other and discuss content, only, on article talk pages is in order. If you both can't do that I would suggest a self-imposed interaction ban. I don't think we want any escalation and sometimes it serves both parties in a dispute if we walk away from it. The disparaging remarks on ethnicity and back-in-forth as if this is a battleground needs to stop. That's my personal observation. I will yield to my fellow editors for more discussion should they feel it necessary. --ARoseWolf 20:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf: Hi, during this discussion, I am unsure where I was being uncivil or did not assume GF. If you think there is a contrete reason for that, please quote the most offensive message I posted. However, I strongly believe that I did not post any such messages. On the contrary, there is a clear violation by the user that multiple non-involved users quoted. Regarding the previous incident on my talk page, it's a seperate issue and is completely irrelevant to the current discussion as that discussion was not related to the same article-topic nor it was an argument with the same user. Besides, it is not "some issues", it was a single-time issue. You suggested an interaction and topic ban, but another incident with another user should be a reason to impose such a restriction.--V. E. (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I also yielded but you brought me back so I will explain. I never said you were uncivil, this time. To your point, this is one incident, is it not? My words were those of caution and a call for both of you to take a more kindly approach with other editors in light of these issues. I suggested neither a TBAN nor an interaction ban from this particular discussion or any other in the past, simply a close with a warning. Regardless it is just a suggestion to whomever closes the discussion and I believe that astute individual is competent enough to know that my suggestions are just that. They are based on my observation of the totality of the issue and mine alone. I encourage you to continue discussing any content related concerns on the associated article talk page and if you have any content related questions please feel free to visit the teahouse. Happy editing! --ARoseWolf 21:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I am not saying it is not important because it was one incident, however, I think seperate issues should be discussed seperately. If you or anyone else wants to discuss it, I let it be known that anyone is welcome to my talk page. However, I am not sure why you want me to be warned for something happened in the past which is not related to the current discussion. If there was a continuation of the same behaviour after that incident, I would get it but it was not repeated by me again. Best regards.--V. E. (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

See, this is the canvassing I was talking about.[190]--V. E. (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf: I hope you are not thinking the same after all the canvassing this user caused.--V. E. (talk) 21:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Visnelma, do you have clear evidence that the person "canvassing" is the same as the user here or is that your educated assumption? --ARoseWolf 17:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

At the beginning, when the discussion was not publicised by the troll leader and nobody voted to delete the image file except for ZeusAmmon1, there was an earlier Twitter post, calling people to delete this image to which nobody answered. During this point, there was only one vote to delete the image, the ZeusAmmon1 himself. If there is only one person voting to delete, it is highly unlikely someone else would go and call people on Twitter to delete this image.[191] When I talked about this and the troll group in general on the talk page of Turkish War of Independence, ZeusAmmon1 hastily replied saying that neither him nor the troll leader is nationalist. However, I made no remark on him stating that he is a nationalist, never; I only called the troll group nationalist. And just minutes later when User:Deji Olajide1999 replied to my message, this troll leader posted a Twitter message calling Wikipedians terrorists,[192] and then called people to arms en masse.[193] When the file was decided to keep, he wrote on the talk page, "The hypocrisy of Wikipedia administration...".[194] I don't know if this fall into your definition of "clear evidence" but those are the things that lead me to think he is canvassing.--V. E. (talk) 18:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment: looking at the case myself, I hardly can find any reason for User:Visnelma to be warned over the current incident. We ought, as the Wikipedia community, to isolate disruption and misbehavior, not scare away those who are trying, in their own capacity, to deal with such incidents, such as V.E. The Turkey topic area is a very difficult area of Wikipedia, the last we need is to discourage capable editors from trying to do the right thing here. If they don't have our back, then who will? We already lost capable and competent editors in various topic areas, especially the Middle East, the Balkans and the Turkey topic areas just because as a community we wouldn't lend them a minimal support for their hard work. I am speaking as an Editor who also was framed as "Greek" and was attacked for my perceived ethnicity, again in the Turkey topic area and the offender was banned for doing that. I expect the admins to take a similar stance here as well, just like how they did in past cases, and throw a serious warning at User:ZeusAmmon1 or impose sanctions if their problematic behavior continues. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ contribs ✎)} 09:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The warning I mentioned is nothing more than including in the closing statement that editors are expected to conduct themselves appropriately without disparaging others based on nationality and without making assumptions based on what we think is true versus providing clear evidence prior to making claims. I looked at the case as well and I see where each side called the other a nationalist and included an ethnic group in the comment (Turkish vs Greek). At that point both were in error in my opinion. To be perfectly honest, if everyone treated Wikipedia as a place to discuss content rather than focus in on nationality or political leanings we wouldn't need AN/I quite so much. Take it or leave it. Agree or disagree. I really don't care and it's not going to change my assessment at this point anyway. I made my statement. Please don't ping me back here. The discussion has moved into this weird place of making accusations without proof and calling others vandals, sock puppets and such. --ARoseWolf 17:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf: Can you please quote my message where I disparaged the other editor based on his ethnicity? I asked this you already twice[195][196] and you did not quote anything and you yourself said I was not uncivil.[197] This is the third time I am asking this. Besides, I am Turkish myself; so, it is pointless for me to use the word Turkish as a disparaged term.--V. E. (talk) 18:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, in a haste, I forgot you wrote don't ping back.--V. E. (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It's fine, I realize you probably commented without seeing it. I do not believe you were uncivil but you were very provocative in starting that discussion. You wanted to provoke someone into responding. That was the intent. That is the battleground mentality that I am speaking about. There are other venues to discuss off-wiki groups that may be trying to infiltrate and disrupt Wikipedia. It could be that the leader of this group is just watching what is going on. It could be that Zeus is the leader. I don't know. So far all of the evidence presented is circumstantial. It didn't have to be presented in a provocative manner on an article talk page. My request was for everyone to just pause and move forward exercising a little more kindness in how we deal with others here. --ARoseWolf 19:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

ARoseWolf (didn't ping per request), What makes you think I'm being provacative? You are presenting that not just as a mere opinion but as a fact, AFAIS. Why would I want to provoke someone into responding for a user with whom I had no single interaction before? What's your evidence for that? As you have probably noticed, I've been sharing links for every claim that I made; however, this is the fourth time I am asking you to tell a reason for thinking something like that. Besides, I have never claimed ZeusAmmon1 to be the group leader. In fact, that is not even related to the core of my argument. Quoting myself: At the beginning, when the discussion was not publicised by the troll leader and nobody voted to delete the image file except for ZeusAmmon1, there was an earlier Twitter post, calling people to delete this image to which nobody answered. During this point, there was only one vote to delete the image, the ZeusAmmon1 himself. If there is only one person voting to delete, it is highly unlikely someone else would go and call people on Twitter to delete this image. When I talked about this and the troll group in general on the talk page of Turkish War of Independence, ZeusAmmon1 hastily replied saying that neither him nor the troll leader is nationalist. However, I made no remark on him stating that he is a nationalist, never; I only called the troll group nationalist. Furthermore, why would someone claim not to be something when you don't call him to be something but rather a group? Lastly, I posted it in the article talk page because I didn't know that there were other places to discuss off-wiki groups. In such a circumstance, why do you think it to be provocative?--V. E. (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Plus, as SilentResident explain here, ZeusAmmon1 defended the sock attempt to delete the file, isn't that alarming?--V. E. (talk) 20:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

By the way, what I initially posted in the article talk page was this: There is this one user named ERLIK on Twitter who seems to have an influence on Turkish nationalists. He says "our Wiki team is not ready yet" and "we are calling seasoned editors to join us". His posts target articles such as Turkish War of Independence, and Nutuk.[15] Another example is one user posting a message under the same post by ERLIK calling other nationalist users to delete an image on Wikimedia Commons.[16] A few months ago, he posted other messsages some of which target these articles.[17] Best regards. However, ZeusAmmon1 paraphrased it like this when answering you: "'Look, Turkish nationalists gather and trolls like this, sometimes by deliberately making wrong translations.' I felt the need to respond to this because I am neither a nationalist as he mentioned". Can you please show me where I claimed him to be a nationalist or troll in my original message? My message did not target him in any way. It's weird he wrote something like that. Furthermore, he not only paraphrased what I said wrongly but also put inside quotes.--V. E. (talk) 20:30, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Chain of events

• I posted a message on Talk:Turkish War of Independence regarding a Turkish troll group. Moments later, out of nowhere, ZeusAmmon1 appeared, claiming he is not a nationalist (although I made no such remark on him). He also said the leader of troll group is not a nationalist. And ultimately, he accused me of being a Greek nationalist and said "do you have brain seizures".[198]
• Then, he said there is an organized group but it is not trolling.[199]
• After that, minutes later, the leader of this troll group shared a post regarding this discussion on talk page of TWoI, claiming Wikipedians are terrorists.[200]
• Lastly, a commons deletion nomination by ZeusAmmon1 was swarmed with sockpuppet accounts upon another post by the same troll leader.[201]

I hope this helps to understand the situation. Best regards.--V. E. (talk) 09:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Thankfully, the objective evaluation of the Deletion Request by User:Gbawden, resulted in the request being denied and to the sock attempt's failure. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ contribs ✎)} 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment:He literally accuses me over and over again but you're telling "we should punish ZeusAmmon". That does not make sense. Also, you guys really shouldn't call people "sockpuppet accounts". If you don't like people's opinions that doesn't make them troll, sockpuppets, or something like that. Also don't forget to teahouse. By the way some of you say "Kept: no valid reason for deletion" so what will happen if someone tries to make bin Ladin as good person. Will you say same thing ?

Also, you guys really shouldn't call people "sockpuppet accounts". If you don't like people's opinions that doesn't make them troll, sockpuppets, or something like that. Defending WP:SOCKPUPPETRY is a suicide case. If you really don't want to get banned and save what little respect is left for you, I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK right away. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ contribs ✎)} 13:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

If you don't have proof you're breaking the rules by False accusation. And if someone is detected as WP:SOCKPUPPETRY then report them they will get banned. By accusing random people you're supporting real WP:SOCKPUPPETRY accounts.

• Let's just say it like this; neither user's conduct is particularly edifying. Now, if one of them is unwilling to drop the stick; then they might indeed need a enforced temporary break from here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

User:Spokane Ball yt and fake referencing

Justice Beech-Jones and Spaniard4140

Robert Beech-Jones has recently been appointed the Chief Judge at Common Law in the Supreme Court of New South Wales, Australia. Spaniard4140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has recently created an article for Beech-Jones, including the uncited text There is speculation that his parents are of Spanish descent, having been dissenters during the dictatorial regime of Francisco Franco. It is said that they fled Spain in the mid-1900s and settled in Tasmania, where, for anonymity they adopted the surname 'Beech-Jones', an anglicisation of the traditional Spanish surname 'Béchjoñez'. Unsurprisingly, I can find no trace of such a Spanish surname. The swearing-in speech for Beech-Jones, which is cited in the article, says that his parents migrated from Wales. I have removed the text from the article, but I am concerned that the user account Spaniard4140 might have been created just to perpetrate a hoax about Beech-Jones' Spanish ancestry.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Warned and queried. El_C 12:45, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Concerns about Softlavender by Butterslipper

A request of help for possible boycotting and wrong judgment on notability, on my Wikipedia page draft on ERO (Dominique Philbert). A question of the historical ownership of the artist pseudonym ‘ERO’.

A request of help for possible boycotting and wrong judgment on notability, on my Wikipedia page draft on ERO (Dominique Philbert) a graffiti artist. A question of the historical ownership of the artist pseudonym ‘ERO’.

ERO (Dominique Philbert) 1967-2011 was the first artist to use the pseudonym, the art name, ‘ERO’, published since 1983, as demonstrated in my draft, and attested on magazines selling millions copies (i.e. People mag., Newsweek) which I quoted in my article. He is in several public and private collections since mid 1980's.

There are some other artists and pseudo artist, worldwide, that took his same pseudonym, as I wrote on my draft: ‘Several years and decades after the 'ERO' tag was chosen, in 1982, [published in 1983] ''by Dominique Philbert, and after his death in 2011, other graffiti writers, from Italy, Australia, Ukraine, Spain, France, [just found another in Israel] took the aka 'ERO'. Some, as a tribute to him, others by chance [or ignorance]. To avoid confusion about correct attribution and authenticity, artworks with the tag 'ERO' must be verified.’

I suspect that behind the difficulties to post a Wikipedia page on him, there could be one or more of those ‘post’ or pseudo-ERO, or their supporters and ‘technicians’, pretending they should be the one and the first ERO (no evidence at all, just hackers and boycotting)

It’s a matter of fact that somebody has even cut out the title of my draft, from ‘ERO (Dominique Philbert)’ to ‘Dominique Philbert’. Now, ‘cui prodest’ that action? To whom that ‘cutting’ could have been useful? Isn't it a boycotting?

Theroadislong and Hoary, declined my draft with a wrong premise, that prevented me to talk with them, as I’m afraid it would have been a useless ‘ping-pong’, seriously doubting of their competence: they wrote that ERO (Dominique Philbert) artist, don’t have notability. I had proven it widely in my draft.* The comment by Theroadislong was a strong proof of superficiality (at best) ’struggling to find anything but a passing mention of him in the sources let alone in-depth significant coverage? Theroadislong (talk) 07:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)’ and of lack of respect for my research. Unfortunately, Hoary, though more gentle, approved him.

Web pillory: Their negative comments have been published on the bot Worddisk, giving publicity on the web to ERO (Dominique Philbert) as a non important artist, with not notability. Killing that notable artist, who died at 43 y.o., a second time.

I surely made some mistakes, I am probably, somehow, handicapped, but disposable to corrections. Though I have my own a certain relevance (all that you find on google at my name for art and music is about me, plus many other things as a thesis on me at the University of Firenze -don’t worry I’m not interested to do a wiki page on myself- a few articles I wrote are on Academia.org and Researchgate.net, etc., etc.).

I’m very sorry to say that what happened is scaring me, that in Wikipedia there could be a wild underworld of ‘scalp hunters’, killing whoever they need to make ‘power points’ for their climbing to became Wikipedia authorities, no matters if the victim was really deserving elimination or not.

I’m particularly scared because Theroadislong and Hoary, from what I see on their profiles, look like they already are some kind of Wikipedia’s authorities. Am I wrong? How could it have been possible, they become judges, while being so superficial if not worst, like they have been on my page on ERO? Was it just an incident? A lack of attention?

Should I give up and cancel the page on ERO? Will it be in the interest of Wikipedia’s knowledge mission? At the advantage of the others graffiti artists or pseudo artists that wrongly took that pseudonym many years after?

After Hoary wrote that the page on ERO was too ‘wordy’, I canceled, among other things the chapter titled “ERO’s Work and the Acceptance of Graffiti as a Form of Art - A 'Blow Up' on 'The Afro American' newspaper” where I noticed, with very interesting links to the newspaper, that ERO was a turning point in the consideration of the Afro-American community of graffiti art. Actually, strangely, I wonder why the old editing, are no more visible: all the rendering listed at the dates of the old editing show the same, more recent text, therefor I copy the above-mentioned chapter text below **

• …” ERO's notability was confirmed in one of the major and oldest American Museums, the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston where it was included in the important exhibition "Writing the Future - Basquiat and the Hip Hop Generation" (3 April 2020 - 25 July 2021, originally planned to travel also to Perez Museum in Miami, second venue canceled due to 'covid' pandemia), with a monumental painting he did in 1984 (reproduced double page on the related catalog, where ERO is mentioned on 14 pages included his biography), and where he was exhibited among two pilasters painted by K.Haring and next room to a very big double portrait Basquiat painted depicting ERO, as a sign of esteem and, there is to say, 'notability'. ERO’s historical relevance is also attested in exhibitions and in articles by popular magazines, in Graffiti's crucial years 1983 and 1984, where ERO’s tag and name, as well as photos of his works, were published with emblematic titles such as

“Graffiti on Canvas”,.[2], “When Graffiti Paintings Sell for Thousands - The Art World Sees the Writing on the Wall” [3], "5 Artists Take Graffiti from the Streets to the Galleries” [4], “Graffiti Artists Rise to Acceptance in Museum” [5], “From Subways to Fame”[6]. ….” on important magazines and newspaper of 1980s

• • ‘ERO’s Work and the Acceptance of Graffiti as a Form of Art - A 'Blow Up' on 'The Afro American' newspaper’

Besides having been one of the protagonists, in the most crucial years 1983-84-85, when Graffiti brake a sort of art apartheid of Afro-Americans and Latinx outsiders, previously cut out from art galleries and museums -An historical fact that gives further importance to Graffiti Art in terms of social and political relevance, given also the worldwide spread of that form of art, for decades, and still ongoing to the Now.- ERO also became one of the instruments of a historical transition, when, for the first time, graffiti was taken into good consideration, also in a large part of the Afro-American community, as an analysis of their oldest newspaper, the ‘Afro-American’ (founded 1892) reveal (E). K. Monteyne[20] 'Hip-Hop on Film', mentions how the approach to graffiti art of black American press, like "Afro-American" and "Chicago Defender", who in 1972 and 1973, called the graffiti a "disease" and “vandalism", changed when in the 24 March 1984 issue of the 'Afro-American'[5] published a photo of ERO in front of one of his paintings with the title "From Subways to Fame”, and the long caption “Graffiti artist Dominique Philbert as Ero, displays one of his paintings recently outside the Fun Gallery in Greenwich Village, N.Y. He has moved from subway graffiti to his works being shown in Zurich, Berlin, Amsterdam, Milan, and Tokyo.” ERO's photo and the caption are on the newspaper's third page, above at right, significantly in between the article "Black woman refused to form DAR unit because it's racist" and " 'Buy black' said key wealth". The same newspaper, a little less than three months later, the 16 June 1984 at page 11, confirmed that the change had taken place, publishing, in the column ‘Showtime’, a ‘Hip Hop Glossary’, in where the definition "Graffiti Writer" is described as "an artist who works in the spray can paint medium, creating works of art on public surfaces, such as walls and subway cars (and sometimes canvas)” [21]. In the same newspaper, the 3 March 1984, three weeks before the issue with ERO, the article "Graffiti writers 'off the wall'"[22], at page 14, writes of the surrender of a group of Philadelphia graffiti writers to their town's mayor and the anti-graffiti authority, with whom they "administer[ed] an oath" to not be prosecuted, and in exchange to some, promised, legal creative activities (the article is of April 3, but by mistake, it has been archived on the April 10 issue) (P) 16:50, 11 September 2021 (UTC) The letter among parentheses was a system I conceived to better specify bibliography, But then I canceled them accepting the critic of Hoary, as, in this case, possibly acceptable, to make the text references more simple (though less rich) - Thanks, by Tetide

Hello, Tetide. Theroadislong and Hoary have done absolutely nothing wrong and attacking them is counterproductive. You need to learn how to write concisely and get to the point, both here and in your draft. Please read WP:TLDR. Perhaps this person is notable enough for a concise, neutral, tightly written, well-referenced article. But your draft is a bloated, almost unreadable monstrosity that should be trimmed ruthlessly, or it will never have any hope of becoming an acceptable encyclopedia article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Reporting a Vandal, POV pusher, Stalker and Disruptive user

User:Nalanidil

• Nalanidil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Nalanidil talk

Hello. Thanks for taking the time to help. While Nalanidil has many fine contributions on a relatively neglected topic, specifically, the Romani people, they had also added many unsourced statements, contradicted what sources say despite not providing reliable sources of their own, as well as at times adding statements that purportedly are from the provided source, but cannot actually be found. I believe that they're knowledgeable on the topic they're editing, however, these actions are simply against the basic policy of verifiable sourcing. They have already received a uw-3 warning for disruptive editing on July 30 2021. One can see in their contributions that the behavior is still consistently present. Looking at the edit history of their talk page, it seems that this has been a case for a long time, and without further action, is not going to change. They have already been blocked once in 2015 and once in 2017, beforehand. Dege31 (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I too have encountered similar problems with this user, and have left them four warnings but they did not change. The disruptive behavior has been ongoing for a long time. Below are a few (not all) diffs from the past couple weeks. It would be great if an admin could have a look.

DIFFS: Referring to others as "gadjos". I do not know if this is a slur, but editors should not second-guess others ethnicity or heritage. [257]. Adding unsourced material [258], [259], [260], [261]. Adding unsourced material in front of an existing source [262]. Moving articles and renaming them without a discussion first [263]. Removal of maintenance tags without resolving issues [264]. Changing genres “Romani People” to “Muslim Roma” [265], [266]. Netherzone (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Don't tell lies about me! @Netherzone !!! What did i do wrong? I only corrected the term in the articles: for example: Gurbeti are a subgroup of the Muslim Roma, and Muslim Roma can be described as cultural Muslims. Why am I not allowed to correct it and should I leave the romani people name behind? So what ? You have no idea about the Muslim Balkan Roma. You may only have knowledge about the culture of the Vlax Roma from romania. However, the majority of the roma in the world are not vlax roma from romania. You throw all the roma in one pot, without knowing the differences between the individual groups. many roma groups do not refer to themselves as roma. As an example: Arliye, Gurbeti, Gachar etc.

Write what you want, we Roma know our history and we know the difference between the individual groups. And Gadjo means non-Roma in Romanes language, read it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadjo_(non-Romani)

--Nalanidil (talk) 18:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I have been lucky enough to know some Roma people (as well as a non-Roma can!), and I can say from my anecdotal experience that "Gadjo" is not exactly a slur, but it's not exactly neutral, either. Nalanidil, I would suggest, if you feel the need to refer to ethnicity this way, to use "non-Roma" rather than "gadjo" as it will enhance both understanding and respect. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Aman bre, @Dumuzid, Romanes canesa? Did you speak Romanes? Gadjo is not a slur, we in our Sepečides dialect used this word for a Non Roma person. Read it self https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadjo_(non-Romani)

So leave me away, enough with you all.

Nalanidil (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Nalanidil -- I do not speak Romanes, and you'll note I said it is not a slur. I've made a suggestion, and you're welcome to ignore it if you like. I will warn you that being combative is not likely to lead to your desired outcomes. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Dumuzid, This is not about the word Gadjo at all. Rather, I am attacked by users, although I only want to explain the differences between the individual Roma groups. And ALMOST EVERYTHING that is given here of sources was written by NON-ROMA People, who make absolutely no distinction between the different Roma groups. Their knowledge is based only on one group, namely the Vlax Roma from Romania. But their way of life and originmyths etc., cannot be transferred to all roma groups. Oh, if the Admins want to block me, no problem. I don't feel like explaining anything here, they don't want to be understand. There is an image of the Roma in their minds, of a single Roma group. Let them believe what they want.

Nalanidil (talk) 19:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Nalanidil -- I absolutely think your contributions are valuable, as you bring knowledge and a viewpoint that I don't think is particularly common among Wikipedia editors. To that degree, I agree with you. But the complaints seem to be about a lack of sourcing, and this is definitely an issue that can occur here. Even if you know something to be true, we need to be able to point to an independent reliable source for this fact. I know how frustrating this can be, but given the nature of Wikipedia, if we took your Roma status as enough to change an article, we'd have 100 anonymous editors within an hour also claiming to be Roma. Now, I also understand that sources are going to be extra difficult here, but I would encourage you to keep trying. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The problems are: adding unsourced material, removing sourced material just because you disagree with it, moving/renaming pages without discussing with the community and gaining consensus, removing maintenance tags without fixing the underlying problems. The above Diffs are just from the past two weeks, yet this behavior that has gone on for a long time. Wikipedia has guidelines and policies for things like "No original research" WP:OR, "Reliable sources" WP:RS, and "Citing sources" WP:CITE, and "Verifiability WP:V, "Neutral point of view" WP:NPOV, "Ownership of articles" WP:OWN and basic things like common courtesy, WP:CIVIL, no personal attacks WP:NPA and others. I know that is a lot of links to read, however I really recommend that you learn more about how things work here on wikipedia. If you do so, I think your time here will feel less frustrating. Netherzone (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

just it's about the sources, the majority was written by non-Roma who make no distinction between the different Roma groups. Unfortunately I don't know much sources that were written by Roma of different groups themselves, and If it is a Rom, then only from the Vlax Roma group. But the majority of the world's Roma are not onl Vlax Roma, that's why I want to make this clear, because a wrong picture is given to the reader. They are big differences between the individual Roma groups. Especially Christian and Muslim Roma are different due to religion, culture, music, dance, food, lifestyle, traditions, languages, countries of origin in which the Roma have lived for centuries, play a big role because totally different ways of life have developed.

But I think it's pointless, I'm not suitable for Wikipedia.

Nalanidil (talk) 19:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Eyes, please

Gross image vandalism of September 11 attacks and United Airlines Flight 93 from an account with ECP. Both articles are now fully protected against ECP sleepers for now. Account blocked, badimages updated, revdel'd too. Commons deletions would be extremely helpful, and a global block. Please watch out on peripheral articles and nuke from orbit. Acroterion (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Ultima the Hedgehog is very likely compromised, along with Chiphilla. We had a couple this morning too. Global locks requested ~TNT (she/they • talk) 23:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@TheresNoTime: It would probably be a good idea to tag these accounts with {{compromised account}}. I've just seen a thread on reddit where someone was threatening to track down the "vandal" based on the information on their user page. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 23:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Good idea, I've done that and revision deleted the information - I've noted this at WP:AN for admin review, as its not really a valid revdel reason ~TNT (she/they • talk) 23:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

All right, I'm going to back it down to ECP again. Acroterion (talk) 23:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Could someone stick confirmed=checkuser onto the end of the template on Ultima the Hedgehog's user page, just for the complete avoidance of doubt? thanks. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 04:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:JS1 PRN

JS1 PRN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user was previously reported by User:HistoryofIran on 22 May. The report can be found at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1068#JS1 PRN. No action was taken (as nobody responded).

JS1 PRN seems to have an obsession with adding unsourced or improperly sourced ethnicity info to articles about Afghanistan's provinces. They were warned/informed twice about their edits in May (some diffs of problematic April/May edits: [267][268]. After being reported, this user made a few more edits (the first edit I checked while preparing this report, diff, incorrectly changed the height of an Afghan athlete) before resuming ethnicity edits on 2 August.

Since then, JS1 PRN has made several unsourced or improperly sourced edits involving ethnicity (diffs: [269][270][271][272][273]). Those diffs are the edits that I cautioned/warned them about on their talk page or brought up with them in a separate section on their talk. They received four cautions/warnings including a level 4 warning in August. The user only responded once (to the level 4 warning), to which I replied. Then, earlier today, they made another such edit (diff: [274]) which is why I'm coming here. I'm requesting that JS1 PRN be indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@JS1 PRN: At Parwan Province, this edit changed the reference to https://nps.edu/web/ccs/parwan and added many precise percentages, such as "65% Tajiks and 35% Pashtuns" for Bagram. Please explain where the reference verifies those numbers. Johnuniq (talk) 05:12, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Mark Parken - persistent introduction of unsourced material

Polemic user page

User page of User:The owner of all

User:548641810B keeps adding incorrect legal information to Pornography laws by region

This user keeps blatantly misinterpreting current laws or citing outdated court cases, legislation etc. to claim pornography is mostly or completely illegal in the US and UK. They largely focus on this one article and not much else. Do they need to be blocked? If not, how can I get them to stop? Dronebogus (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Sock of impersonating account User:Dronebogus1. Blocked and tagged.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:03, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE, harassment

Recently people have been treating my talk page as a place to contact regarding matters unrelated to Wikipedia. The first message came from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:KnowledgeMastermind https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CAMERAwMUSTACHE&diff=1043148864&oldid=1039200960 claiming to be acting on the behalf of someone else. Message was civil enough and I removed it without incident. Now the person they claim to be acting on behalf of (maybe it's the same person IDK) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Violette4th is leaving me more messages https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACAMERAwMUSTACHE&type=revision&diff=1043552865&oldid=1043155824 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CAMERAwMUSTACHE&diff=next&oldid=1043555308 that are getting increasingly more rude and unlike the last account this one looks created specifically to bother me. I don't even work for Fandom so I have no idea what they expect me to do. They need to contact staff on Fandom, not stalk me to another site. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeesh, that second user went one hour from promising to behave to making threats.Citing (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

User:KnowledgeMastermind gets a one-week block for socking and trolling; the sock is CU-blocked. Drmies (talk) 20:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... if I'm reading this right, KnowledgeMastermind is Violette4th, right? Someone who apparently left a racist message on some other wiki? If that's the case, combined with the socking and trolling, isn't the solution to make this indef? Is Drmies getting soft in his old age? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Floqsterix, I went to the farmers market this morning and the Wild Yeast lady had all the pastries, including Kouign-amann, so yeah I'm feeling pretty good. Whether I'm really getting soft--I'm getting ready for my 14-yr evaluation and don't want to appear too harsh. Also, I did NOT look at what all they posted elsewhere, but sure, send me off to read some more racist shit... Drmies (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Floq, I can't see what happened on that other wiki, which is a flashing nightmare to navigate, and so I can't do anything based on that. I did look at pretty much all their edits here and reverted a bunch of them. I cannot say they are a net positive here, but let's give it a week. Drmies (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, no, I don't want to send you off to look at racist shit. I wouldn't even know how to find this fandom page. My only comment (which should probably be ignored, so this can be put to bed) is that based on comments here, it seems clear KM and V4th are the same person, and if it is true that V4th was leaving racist comments on other people's walls on some other project, and importing that fight into WP, that both accounts should be blocked indef. But meh. I'll add User:KnowledgeMastermind's talk page to my watchlist, and indef them if they do anything like that here. Or tell any more obvious lies. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

User:Bashereyre

• Bashereyre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Bashereyre has been here since February 2007, and has in those 14 years created more than 8,000 articles. As an autopatrolled editor, few of his creations are actually checked by enough people. I noticed a lot of sub-standard stubs created by them, but not until May of this year did I pay more serious attention to them. As I found serious errors with creation after creation, I posted this, which lists a wide variety of problems, both with the quality of sourcing (including BLP issues) and the factual accuracy of his articles. They removed this a few hours later without replying[289]. Two weeks later, I tagged Ralph Brideoke (priest) as a copyright violation, adding yet another issue to the mix. I hoped that things would improve, but I see very little change. In the months inbetween, I have checked some of his older contributions and some of their current ones.

• Thavaraj David Eames: the dates in the one-sentence BLP article were contradicted by the lone (primary) source
• Nicholas Lechmere (priest): see Draft talk:Nicholas Lechmere (priest)#Reasons for move to draft
• So, what did Bashereyre do? Well, recreate the article as Nicholas Lechmere (archdeacon) but with the exact same issues of course
• I also since moved to draft Draft:Martin Parkinson (priest), Draft:Thomas Hayward (warden), Draft:Andrew Sewell, Draft:Thomas Talbot (priest) and (today) Draft:Edward Deane (1727–1770), each time explaining the issues at the draft talk page (e.g. Deane didn't live from 1727 to 1770, that was copied from another article: and the only source at BLP Andrew Sewell was not about him)
• In June 2021, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Cuppage closed as delete. Today, Bashereyre recreated the article as George Cuppaidge (an alternative found during the AfD): now deleted as G4

Examples of uncorrected issues:

• Barry Denny (동음이의) (created yesterday), "Deny [sic] represented Tralee from 1717 to 1727.": nope, he represented it 1696-99.
• Thomas Dawson (politician) (created yesterday), "Dawson represented Armagh County from 1783 to 1790, and Sligo Borough from 1873 to 1790." Apparently it was Armagh from 1776 to 1783, and Sligo from 1783 to 1790. That's one year correct out of four. No idea what he's doing in Category:Members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom for County Louth constituencies (1801–1922) either.
• Alexander Dawson (MP) (created yesterday): MP from 1826 to 1831, but neither the first nor the third source mention him (logically, as they only deal with MPs until 1800). And no idea what he's doing in Category:UK MPs 1868–1874...
• Henry Darby (Irish MP) (from yesterday) "represented Kilkenny City during 1800"? No, he represented Gowran (Parliament of Ireland constituency).
• William Cuffe (created 4 September): "Cuffe represented Kilkenny City from 1735 to 1743". That's weird, he was only born in c. 1743, and was MP between 1783 and 1792.

A typical example of what causes many (though not all by far) of his errors, copy-pasting the previous creation to start a new one, can be seen here:

• first create Richard Boyle (동음이의), who lived from 1655-1711
• then Samuel Boyse (Irish MP), birth and death 1696-1711 (oops), with the interesting tidbit "He died as a result of a duel"
• then Nathaniel Boyse, who of course has the incorrect claim: "He died as a result of a duel".

A chain reaction of errors...

All suggestions on how to make sure that Bashereyre's creations are reasonably correct in the future (and any ideas on how to clean up the 8000+ existing ones) are welcome. Perhaps starting with the removal of the autopatrolled right? Fram (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

First on the list is to stop Bashereyre from creating so much disruption for other editors to clean up . Binksternet (talk) 18:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Question - Would it be appropriate to impose a topic-ban against creating articles in article space, and so requiring him to submit them through AFC? That may be a minimum sanction; some other more expansive sanction may also or instead be in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• The disruption needs to be stopped immediately. Removing autopatrolled is the first step, but insufficient. A topic ban against creating articles in mainspace would be something. I'd go so far as to say an indefinite block or partial block from mainspace is needed to engage Bashereyre in discussion first. It can be lifted as soon as Bashereyre expresses understanding that discussion is not optional on Wikipedia, and that it is their responsibility to correct errors they are introducing en masse. They should be fixing these errors before being permitted to create new pages (even via AFC). — Bilorv (talk) 22:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked from article space (I think; not sure how to format namespace p-blocks. Any admin please correct if wrong). Miniapolis 23:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Fram (talk) 07:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Miniapolis: your block prevents them from making any edit in article namespace, not just creating new pages. If that was your intent then you did it right. I don't think we can block a user from being able to create pages specifically. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 15:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

(←) Ivanvector's squirrel, I wasn't sure how to address this and wanted to get their attention. Sounds like a ban on article creation outside AfC would be best, but the magnitude of the mess seemed to indicate the need for an immediate halt. As I said, any admin should feel free to modify the block. Miniapolis 17:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the block is absolutely needed. Bashereyre needs to engage in this discussion. — Bilorv (talk) 18:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• FWIW, I clicked on them and discovered they were already on my watchlist, which means at some point, they did something cringeworthy that caught my attention. I endorse Miniapolis's good move by blocking, furthermore I am in agreement with Fram that Autopatral be removed until they can prove that they are competent enough to hold the perm. Celestina007 (talk) 23:13, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

User 246:4502:1B40:7525:549E:45E5:3BEB has just made it clear that they have no intention of behaving appropriately

Their very first edit was calling me the R-word, and their second was trying to justify it by claiming I was incredibly stupid or something for making the suggestion that most WW2 vets probably won’t be around in 15 years. I think this user has made it clear how they plan on behaving and should probably be blocked before they do anything else unpleasant. Dronebogus (talk) 02:24, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

You're missing some numbers there. The IP address you want is 2601:246:4502:1B40:7525:549E:45E5:3BEB (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 192.76.8.74 (talk) 02:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

AvinashCabral

I happened to notice how AvinashCabral created an article about the historical minor colonization actions of the Republic of Ragusa in India, but it seems they were quite overzealous, and their description of Ragusan trade with India was fraught with original research exaggerations, starting from the wrong title "Croatian India", a concept that simply doesn't exist in literature.

Some anonymous users noticed this originally and had tried to clean it up, but unfortunately JavaHurricane, Serols and Firefangledfeathers saw the large removals and just reverted it all as vandalism (I didn't examine all of these, so there may have been merit to that as well, but it's apparent that no actual proper discussion was had). The anonymous user(s) seem to have tried to explain their case on the talk page, but were ignored.

The original author then returned and did some manual reverting, like here. Another user, BananaBork, seems to have then noticed the issue and done some cleaning up, and then I also noticed it and did more, and in turn pinged the original author on the same talk page explicitly. I also had to clean up a bit on other related articles where these kinds of claims were spread by AvinashCabral, and noticed that they also moved the article about the Austrian colonization of the Nicobar Islands to be overly generic as well, which I undid because it likewise didn't seem to be based in sources and was a deviation from the earlier organic consensus of that article.

Unfortunately, this did not lead to anything productive - afterwards, AvinashCabral returned again just to reinstate more of their fringe claims, like:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Colonial_India&diff=prev&oldid=1043837217
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gandaulim_fort&diff=prev&oldid=1043836657
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ragusan_trade_with_India&diff=1043836279&oldid=1043526616

This is an unacceptable level of WP:IDHT, and if I was an uninvolved admin, at this point I'd have reacted by blocking this user who refuses to engage in collaborative editing based on reliable sources. I'd appreciate if some other admin could assess the situation and intervene. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Please post at WT:INB, as well? TrangaBellam (talk) 13:13, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Done — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Block for NPA

Proposal: AvinashCabral is indefinitely blocked for multiple violations of NPA including prejudiced commentary against Hinduism.

• Support - 1, 2 and 3. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support a block of some kind based on the provided diffs. (and the behavior described in the section above) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:12, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support not only for the PAs but also for the disruptive, POINTY edits they've recently been making, which are indications that they are WP:NOTHERE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
• I have no idea what you're talking about, this is a separate topic, that you should probably explain better instead of just proposing such a harsh sanction right off the bat? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  I would say: examine the diffs provided. They're pretty egregious. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see them in the first comment above now. Yeah, that's beyond the pale. We're deep in WP:NOTHERE territory here. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• If blocks are being handed out for NPAs, then a reviewing admin should probably have a gander at the whole conversation at User talk:AvinashCabral#Anti-Hindu bias in your edits and personal attacks!. Looks like Avinash had a willing dance partner. Regardless who initiated the situation, personal attacks are unacceptable, retaliatory or not. – ².O.^Boxing 15:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  I agree. But they have been already blocked (indefinitely) for unrelated causes. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• We don't need to start voting right off the bat. At least, wait for one uninvolved admin to show up and say they're not comfortable acting without consensus. Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Blockedindefinitely for harassment. Also, tried finding the purported "orgy"/"porn" alluded to, but there were too many images to go through, then I got bored. El_C 18:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Bored? Searching for...porn? Are you sure you're feeling okay over there, El_C? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 02:49, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, major revdels (from July on). I don't think that I've seen such insulting expressions of religious intolerance from non-throwaway accounts in all my years on the project. Shocking, truly. El_C 19:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Changing "Denmark" to "Ragusa" was certainly a bit of a stretch (by about 2,000 km (1,200 mi)). Narky Blert (talk) 21:03, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

R. Martiello

R. Martiello (talk · contribs) has demonstrated that is not editing Wikipedia to make it better but to promote their view on certain topics. The first issue arrived at Latino (et al) where Martiello demonstrated dissatisfaction with Wikipedia's election of "Latino" as a synonym of Hispanic and the exclusion of Latins ("Latino" in Italian, their native language). After several comments at Talk:Latino (demonym)#Origins and Talk:Latino#Latin Europe etc., Martiello managed to get blocked from several Latin(o)-related pages after a short ANI discussion. Five months later, Martinello is at it again, now at Talk:United States, where the user has once again started to use the page as a forum to express their views, but now on "America" redirecting there. The user provided "evidence" that the redirection of America is US-centric and that it should, instead, be pointed out to the Americas (the evidence is just a bunch of other Wikipedias doing what other Wikipedias are free to do). With comments like "I've told the truth on this talk page. Which is something others are certainly intimidated by", "Is this message "patronizing" enough for your bendy Anglo-American mentality? I hope it is!" and "You're the one who still fails to understand that disrespect is disrespect. Inflammatory false definitions in the English language are just plain obnoxious and wrong", we can all agree that the user is WP:NOTHERE to work appropriately, but to promote a personal agenda that we don't have nor need to follow. As the US article falls into Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2, I suggest an indef block this time. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 19:38, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I concur on the need for an indef block, clearly not here to help. --Golbez (talk) 05:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

User repeatedly posting advertising

IP keeps removing sandbox heading

An IP keeps removing the Sandbox heading and adding a nobots template to prevent it from being readded. Can someone stop this IP before new users are unable to know what the Sandbox is for? 2600:1003:B8D8:F0F3:DC30:65B3:42F4:49AA (talk) 20:23, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Diffs please? Stifle (talk) 08:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I see one such edit[290] - there may be others I don’t see - but the IP concerned ceased editing over 12 hours ago so the behaviour appears to be no longer ongoing. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 09:52, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

User making a point of starting trouble.

I'm not sure how to word this but I'll do my best. Since last week, I've been having a few problems with the user Addicted4517 seemingly doing what they can to undermine me. It began on the Wikipedia page of the wrestler Buddy Murphy, where I was updating his page to feature his new ringname, citing Buddy's Twitter as a source, as seen here:

• [291] which was followed by this user undoing my edit claiming that my edit wasn't right and my source wasn't valid as seen here:
• [292]

From there, we went back and forth as seen here, which as you'll note, Addicted4517 failed to correctly prove my edits incorrect, yet continued edit warring.

• [293]
• [294]
• [295]
• [296]
• [297]

This was followed by a completely unnecessary overriding of the source I provided with an article whose direct source was the Twitter I was citing, which the user in question claimed was invalid. So I ask you: How is the Twitter not a valid source, yet an article which directly cites the Twitter is? This seems like a user not wanting to be wrong, and undermining my source to save face:

• [298]

From here, Addicted4517 complained here about an edit I made to my own talkpage which they wouldn't have seen if they weren't hanging around my profile to start with. The dispute about my talkpage was settled, and then I checked in on the Impact Wrestling Personnel page, as it's my favourite page to read, and I find an edit myself and another user made reverted by this exact same user, who for the record, I've never seen edit that page before in my year and a half or so of editing the page. Again, this user ignores the source while claiming Twitter, which has never been an invalid source is an invalid source again.

• [299]

It seems to me at this point, this user is going out of their way to undermine my edits, along with stirring up unnecessary drama. And rather than blowing my stack and getting in trouble for being uncivil, I figured my best bet is to get someone else involved, thus this post. Thank you. SkylerLovefist (talk) 07:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

This complaint is frivolous and WP:BOOMERANG should apply. Twitter as a source by itself should not be used as a general rule, and the claim made was exceptional (anything in a BLP can be so - especially as Buddy is yet to use the name on a show) so an independent source was required. SkylerLovefist refused outright to discuss this reasonably - being generally uncivil in the edit summary here and here and when I corrected the source policy getting it wrong the first time he was generally uncivil again here and not understanding the points I made here. It was crystal balling because Buddy was yet to appear on a show under the name, and assuming the name will be used on a show is both crystal balling and original research. Another user came in supporting my reversion and on Skyler's talk page pointed to two independent sources - 411mania and PW Insider. Both are listed on the pro wrestling sources page - the latter being reliable and the former having limited reliability. When SkylerLovefist used the former I switched it to the latter because PW Insider is a wholly reliable source. PW Insider always verifies it's sources before it includes them - and this would include Twitter. This is why they are a reliable source. The only reason I saw and paid attention to his edit on the Impact Personnel page was because I was looking for any edits on the main Administrator's report page (because it's so busy checking his contributions was the quickest way to do this) due to the report I made and my consequent support in retaining pro wrestling sanctions. I wouldn;t have worried about it except for the edit summary having a veiled crack at the previous issue with Buddy. See for yourself. I checked the source and there is no proof at all that any of the ladies in the video on the source is Brandi Lauren. Therefore it was original research, along with the fact that Brandi is not on the Impact roster per the official website. She had one match against Melina in August and that was all. A one off appearance. I respectfully suggest this is a bad faith report out of spite and leave it for administrator's to take any action, including sanctions if desired, as appropriate. Brandi Lauren is not a member of the Impact roster and the source provided does not prove it at all. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Additional - someone else has also stated Twitter is not a reliable source and reverted the Lauren addition. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Well I had a look at SkylerLovefist's recent contributions and found this [300] containing a personal attack. Addicted4517 was correct to revert this addition as per WP:SOCIALMEDIA it was not a suitable source and it fails verification anyway as it doesn't back up the claim made. SkylerLovefist's edit history on Buddy Murphy is exactly the same. Addicted4517 is patiently and politely pointing to the correct policy and explaining why SkylerLovefist is being reverted but SkylerLovefist responds with edit warring and personal attacks. I would suggest SkylerLovefist stop what they're doing right now as an admin coming here is likely to block them for A) Personal attacks and B) edit warring. SkylerLovefist should also apologise to Addicted4517 for your personal attacks when he was only trying to help them. SkylerLovefist might also like to look at WP:BOOMERANG as I strongly suspect one is heading their way if they don't stop now. WCM_email 08:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I am chuckling here because I just notified you of this on your talk page and you were here anyway. Thank you for this contribution. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

See, little digs like that are what I'm getting at.

And I don't accept that at all. My conduct isn't the issue. I'm getting frustrated because as I've said: this guy keeps undermining my edits. Why can't anyone explain to me why a third party article whose only source is the Twitter account is more valid than the Twitter account which is the article's only source? It's legitimate undermining.

And since when is "I personally can't recognise Brandi Lauren in heavy makeup" a valid reason to undo an edit? She was identified as Brandi Lauren on Impact itself by the commentators as an extension of an ongoing storyline where Brandi was kidnapped by Kimber Lee and Su Yung. SkylerLovefist (talk) 08:58, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I am the other user who gave him (Skyler) the sources. I saw the same edition over and over (including the new name), I was just waiting until someone includes a reliable source talking about the new name, no a Twitter video. BTW, the Impact roster article is a very s***y article with poor sources. I tried to fix it but other users just complained when I asked for sources. The roster article is about people who are signed with Impact Wrestling, but most users includes people "because they appeared on TV". This source (a Twitter video) does not talk about a wrestlers signing with a promotion, so it's not valid. It's just a TV segment, but no information about a contract signed. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The last paragraph here is again original research. I already explained the second paragraph in my original response. Addicted4517 (talk) 09:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

And you're still avoiding answering my question about why an article citing the Twitter is valid but the Twitter itself isn't. Also, I feel like going to other users who weren't involved in the Buddy Murphy edit war to try and further add to this drama by creating a dogpile further adds fuel to my theory you're going through this whole shebang not out of concern, but as part of a personal vendetta of some sort.

I'm happy to put my hand up and say I made some snarky comments purely out of frustration that my perfectly legitimate edits were being undone. But again: if Twitter is invalid as a source, so must the link you overrode the 411mania one with because it's only source is... buddy's Twitter. Which is how this ball got rolling. SkylerLovefist (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The question is... If you have reliable sources talking about his new name and you were asked about them, why you didn't used it? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This appears to be a (series of) content dispute(s) rather than something requiring admin intervention. WP:TWEET is the relevant guideline here and it seems that someone's declaration of a new stage/ring name on their personal twitter should be allowable under this, but as in all content disputes, the correct approach should always be to discuss on the article or project's talk page after the first time an edit is reverted, per WP:BRD. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 10:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, much appreciated. SkylerLovefist (talk) 10:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm afraid that really isn't accurate, the problem here is the frequent personal attacks from SkylerLovefist and their inability to source their edits. EG [301] was sourced to a Twitter video, which makes no mention of the person concerned. They may be in the video but that is WP:OR and WP:SYN to make a claim for a WP:BLP. At Buddy Murphy he was edit warring to force his preferred Twitter source into the article even though HHH Pedrigree had provided one. I do wonder if this is more of a WP:CIR issue. WCM_email 10:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I consider the issue resolved, you aren't involved in any way, shape or form aside from trying to take Addicted4517's side. This wouldn't even be here were your friend not undermining me repeatedly, the comment above indicates my edits were correct, and once again, nobody can (or more accurately wants to answer because then they'd have to admit they're wrong) answer my question as to why a Tweet from the wrestler themselves is an invalid source, but an article which is nothing but a link to the tweet isn't. If you consider a Twitter video with the wrestler's name in it on a verified Twitter account with the wrestler's name on it OR or SYNTH, then yeah. You're deliberately grasping at straws to prolong a pointless edit war which wouldn't have happened had the correct guidelines been adhered to.

Kind of like this, actually. Now then, the matter is resolved, and the edit I made is correct per WP:TWEET. Good day, may it be a pleasant one. ;) SkylerLovefist (talk) 10:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@SkylerLovefist: It's not up to you to decide when AN/I discussions are over. They are officially closed. The only editor I see acting incivilly is you, and this last comment, attempting to rush close an AN/I discussion, was very misguided. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 10:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I've not had anything to do with Addicted4517 before today and my comments are an honest reflection of what I found when I saw your complaint this morning and looked into it. I've already explained what was wrong with your sourcing, I already gave you a link to WP:TWEET - WP:SOCIALMEDIA is the same wlink. There wouldn't have been an edit war if you hadn't chosen edit warring instead of discussing it and listening to some good advice from another editor. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ wasn't telling you that you were right, you weren't, he was telling you how Twitter can be used. If a person makes an announcement on their Twitter page you can cite that but what you can't do is see a person in a video and make the jump to claim they've signed up to something. A Tweet has to explicitly support the claim you make, you can't infer your own conclusions. WCM_email 11:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn't civility, it's the undermining, which I've stated multiple times. And as per the above comment from GrappleX, the original edit war never should have happened and the constant badgering which has gone on since shouldn't either. My source was valid per WP:TWEET. SkylerLovefist (talk) 10:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Please bear in mind that edit warring is not a one way street and when your change was reverted the onus was on you to discuss its merits, not to reinstate it. Please read WP:BRD for a better look at how to handle content disputes in future; there may be a guideline in favour of your initial edit but when it was disputed it should have been discussed and the relevant guideline explained on a talk page in order to demonstrate consensus exists for the change. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 10:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Even if your source was valid per WP:TWEET, tweets are primary sources. A secondary source discussing a primary source will always be better than the primary source itself; that’s basic sourcing policy. Replacing the tweet with an article about the tweet was correct. Mlb96 (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

That was part of the problem one of the "cites" was a Twitter video nothing more. On the basis they personally recognised one of the participants yhey concluded that a person had signed a contract to participate. They've half-heard a comment from another editor on when a Twitter cite is appropriate and decided they were right all along. They weren't. I fear this is going to end in tears as they're planning to carry on - ANI hasn't even looked at the personal attacks yet. WCM_email 07:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Hopefully an admin comes in soon. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Not before Hulk! InedibleHulk (talk) 02:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Fucking wrestling again. How long is the project going to continue flushing editor time down the drain refereeing childish disputes over these phony personas? EEng 16:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree, we should only have childish disputes over real people. Levivich 16:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
    • I too agree, beauty pageant and reality show contestants are far more notable; oh and politicians who lost an election. Narky Blert (talk) 19:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

      As it happens, beauty pageants and reality shows are on my list too. EEng 02:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

      • Absolutely! So Sharmell, The Miz and Bob Backlund walk into a daycare milk bar. Fuck, marry, kill? InedibleHulk (talk) 22:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not even remotely interested in wrestling but the situation here is one user who is clueless about sourcing and being abusive to anyone who reaches out to correct him. It really could do with admin intervention and a WP:BOOMERANG for the OP. WCM_email 16:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here's my reading of the situation. The intial edit was fine. Per WP:TWEET, "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Addicted4517 should not have reverted that edit. But, since they did, per WP:BRD the onus is on SkylerLovefist to take it to the talk page and argue their case for inclusion. -- Mike 🗩 12:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Not quite. The OP's initial edit wasn't fine, it was sourced to a Twitter video [302], in which the OP believed they identified a person and from that inferred they had signed a contract ie WP:OR and WP:SYN on a WP:BLP. The second just links to a Twitter feed not an announcement of a name change [303]. Someone tried to explain WP:TWEET as you correctly referred to it but they firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick and decided they were right all along. Addicted4517 correctly reverted the dubious sourcing on a BLP and tried to explain the importance of sourcing and was met with personal abuse. After this the OP created this ANI entry, this being related to wrestling it seems that bad behaviour isn't of much concern so the expected WP:BOOMERANG hasn't occurred. WCM_email 13:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Another case of WP:NOTHERE

• Lion and Son (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Visited my talk page to leave me this comment:

1. "For my Son of Bitch Aragon Luis!" [304]
2. "Urmia is a part of greater Kurdistan you and other enemies of Kurdish people will never be able to destroy the culture and originility of powerful Kurdish people"[305]

History:

1. Already blocked in the recent past on three occassions for tendentious editing.[306]
2. ~ 15 edits in total[307]

Safe to say that he/she is WP:NOTHERE to build this encyclopaedia. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Blockedindefinitely for harassment. Urmia Semi-protectedindefinitely. Logged AE action (WP:AA2). El_C 15:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, or should it have been WP:KURDS, instead? Oh well. El_C 16:07, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@El C:Urmia overlaps with both WP:AA2 and WP:KURDS. Either one suffices. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:29, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Right, I meant the disruption looks like it's KURDS rather than AA2, but indeed, doesn't really matter. El_C 18:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Yep! - LouisAragon (talk) 19:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

User:D.P Talukdar persisting with disruptive edits

user:AyodeleA1

AyodeleA1 (talk · contribs) is already indeffed, and looking at the edit history of a template, I've suspected that AyodeleA2 (talk · contribs) and Aa372798 (talk · contribs) are the same user too. It turned out that the user pages of all three accounts clearly state that this is indeed the same person. And given the rule that "sanctions apply to individual editors as people, not to accounts" (WP:SOCK), I wonder if the two other accounts should be blocked as well. — Mike Novikoff 23:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mike Novikoff: You failed to notify the three accounts. It's required.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I've notified them, sorry for a slight delay. My hardware is "suboptimal", so to speak. — Mike Novikoff 23:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• I've blocked the two unblocked accounts and tagged all three accounts.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

In Citer

In Citer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an infrequently active account with less than 500 edits since their account creation in 2009 who has mostly been a SPA regarding the names of Jesus and Yahweh, particularly on the Yahshua article. I have serious concerns regarding their motivations editing the topic area and considered them to be WP:NOTHERE. In a crazed rant on the talk page of Yahweh from 2016 diff In Citer declared You Jews make me sick, which is why I assume that they were blocked on the same day for distruptive editing. Their motivation in this topic area seems to be based on religious dogmatism and not on scholarly evidence, which does not support their claims. I suggest an indef block or a topic ban. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked. Indefinite. Feel free to change. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 23:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@CambridgeBayWeather: Works for me. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Persistent issues from user 47.157.129.133

I was about to state this in Administrator intervention against vandalism but decided to explain here instead.

First, the user has been constantly adding poorly sourced or unsourced information and making unconstructive or disruptive edits. If you see the user talk page (and the edit reasons for the reversions of the user's edits in the respective article histories) you can see that the user has been told (and warned) many times and even got blocked a month ago. Some of these also verge into edit warring. One of the more recent examples was trying to repeatedly add something about Palpatine from Star Wars in self-coup article, and then trying to justify with a faux Wikipedia policy ("WP:ZFSRQP-31"), before finally getting locked out of the article when it became protected.

The user also has a habit of inserting discussions into talk page archives instead of using the talk page proper. Despite being told more than once through edit reason, this keeps occurring.

If you check the user's entire contribution history since June, almost all of the user's edits have been summarily reverted because they fall under these cases, and the user is clearly not listening after multiple advices and warnings. 2603:8000:A501:9B00:4425:751C:D9BD:7885 (talk) 04:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with contributing star wars content to Wikipedia, on the other hand your entire post history consists of harassing and spamming other user's talk pages IP. Why don't you focus on contributing to Wikipedia instead of harassing other people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.157.129.133 (talk • contribs)

Blocked – for a period of 2 weeks. Noting that 47.157.129.133 first block was for on Aug 25 for 72 hours. El_C 05:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Persistant personal attacks, refusal to discuss content issues and editing that is not in accordance with WP:BLP by Kingsif

I carried out some cleaning up of Winston Marshall a BLP article that had several WP:OR WP:SYNTH and WP:BLPSPS issues notably concerning his religion and family history. The problems were

• Unsourced claims that he was part of an aristocratic family "de Balkany" whereas no source mentioned this and another source in Italien I found stated that his great grandfather had added this to his name when emigrating to France from Hungary. I included information from this source and removed the reference to the family being aristocratic.
• A claim that he did not identify as Jewish whereas the source used to support this [308] says It involved condoms and being Jewish.” Are you Jewish? “Ish,” he says in a fit of laughter. As this is ambiguous and rather than remove the reference altogether I modified the article to include the quote to avoid a WP:SYNTH. In other source the subject has mentioned spending time in a Catholic church and spoke about his faith without ever defining it.
• The article mentioned that "One of his grandmothers was a Holocaust survivor", the source use for this was a self-published piece written by the subject himself to defend himself about accusations of being a fascist where he wrote "Nothing could be further from the truth. Thirteen members of my family were murdered in the concentration camps of the Holocaust. My Grandma, unlike her cousins, aunts and uncles, survived. She and I were close. My family knows the evils of fascism painfully well. To say the least. To call me “fascist” was ludicrous beyond belief." This may be true but as it was a WP:BLPSPS I modified the text to read "Marshall has said that thirteen members of his family died in the Holocaust and that one of his grandmothers was a survivor." I could have simply removed it but as it was in the section about his family it could be considered relevant.

My edit on the not considering himself Jewish was reverted by the User:Kingsif [309] with a rather sarcastic and agressive edit summary

what? It is literally what he said, you don’t need to quote when you can summarize and it reads better. (And FYI, it’s rich to claim that no sources describe the family as aristocratic when the source you added literally says it in the title ugh.

He obviously had not bothered reading the source I added as the title actually talks about "Balkanized aristocracy" and it goes on to explain that it is not aristocratic. I tried to initiate a discussion on his talk page here [310] where I admit I was a little pedantic about his incorrect use of the word "literally" twice. He immediately reverted my edit with this comment

nothing to discuss if you have basic reading comprehension

When I realised that he refused to discuss the matter I once again edited out the OR with an edit summary saying

Removing WP:OR. The quote in the source is too vague to conclude he does not identify as Jewish. Please discuss before reinstating.

Kingsif undid my edit with this comment

removal is unwarranted, request to discuss insane. When the subject is asked “are you Jewish” and responds with a synonym of “not really”, there is no vagueness at all. Quit being a quote hound.

I made a final edit of the OR opened a discussion on the talk page and left him a message on his talk page asking him to participate and politely reminding him that he was getting close to the 3RR limit as it was the 3rd time he'd reverted me and twice in less than 24h [311] He reverted this saying

quite hound also just a hounder. What a surprise

He eventually participated in the discussion but only to basically insult me and poorly justify his edits. He then reverted another editor who removed more tendentious information and I finally templated him for OR I could have done it for editwarring. He has carried out personal attacks on me on both the article's talk page and mine threatening me with an IBAN. I tried to offer an olive branch here [312] this was ignored and the personal attacks continued. When another editor go involved in his editing and I reminded him there was now consensus he left another personal attack and immediately archived the discussion [313]. The other editor reverted this archiving and the personal attacks continued.

I fully understand that this page was the subject of a large number of contentious editing and Kingsif was working hard against this but because of this he seems to have become very invested in the article and agressive with anyone who edits against his personal vision. He asked me to stay away from his talk page so after his last attack on me I left a warning message here on the article's talk page that his editing was becoming disruptive. Finally I have decided not to wait for the next attack as he has had enough chances to discuss and find consensus. He has been consistently WP:UNCIVIL despite my asking him not to, his editing seems like editwarring maybe because he feels he WP:OWNS the article. He has consistently refused to discuss the issues right from the start. A good deal of his additions to the article here involved WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and non reliable sources (a blog that Kingsif synthes that makes assumptions about the subjects religious beliefs [314]). I have tried to engage with him and offered an olive branche but this has been met with insults threats and disdain. I recognise having been a little pedantic about the word "literally" and that he may have been hurt by my saying that I considered some of his edits as not meeting WP standards but this does not IMHO merit his reaction. I would therefore like an admin to have a look a this and try and resolve the issue as I believe that there are more serious issues than someone being a bit crotchety. --Dom from Paris (talk) 14:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Just as a side note he has accused me of hounding his every edit, I would just like to point out that with the exception of the above article I do not believe that I have ever encountered him and from what I can gather he is a productive and useful editor who has created a large number of good quality articles. This is also one of the reasons I am having trouble understanding this behaviour and I hope it is not me overreacting. --Dom from Paris (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It's very unclear what you're expecting here. Maybe behaviour was imperfect, but it seems very far from anything requiring administrative attention. Just use some form of WP:dispute resolution to handle the content dispute and ignore any imperfections in behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I tried discussion with the editor and each attempt was reverted or met with insults and threats. There is behaviour from the editor that is way out of line with normal editing behaviour, edit warring, incivility, OR, SYNTH, BPLSPS on this particular article, threatening to get me IBANned. If you do not believe that there is anything wrong with this behaviour or rather it is simply "imperfect" and that it is for me to ignore it completely without any kind of remark from an admin then I'm more than a bit surprised. I am not looking for perfection in behaviour that would be stupid but I expect a minimum of respect and when that is refused I would expect an admin to remind the editor of the normal behaviour expected. --Dom from Paris (talk) 15:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

yeah that's probably WP:ASPERSIONS, and WP:BATTLEGROUND, but I would say it only rises to the level of a warning at this point. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:04, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

There's no reason an admin needs to remind the editor of what behaviour is expected. Anyone can do that including yourself. Unless you feel sanction may be justified, there's no reason to open an thread. As it stands, the content dispute seems to remain unresolved, so why don't you work out resolving it? Regardless of whether the editor refuses to initially discuss, they did eventually discuss as is obvious from the thread on the article talk page. It seems clear the two of you aren't going to come to an agreement, so again, why don't you try some form of dispute resolution? Also while I don't think Kingsif should have archived that article talk page discussion so fast, I don't see any evidence they ever removed any discussion from the article talk page otherwise. So I'm not sure what you mean by "each attempt was reverted". If you're trying to discuss content disputes on an editor's talk page and they don't welcome it, then stop wasting your time and take it to the article talk page like you should. Nil Einne (talk) 16:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually reading the discussion and looking at the history more carefully, I think Kingsif has agreed to allow the version preferred by you and LukeSurl to stand and that's why they archived. I still don't think they should have archived it and also they could have come to that agreement with less sniping and edit warring, but you were also sniping in that thread and ultimately this thread still doesn't seem necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 16:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Just gonna leave this here [315] — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 03:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I still think this is premature, there's simply not enough to justify any sanction yet, but Kingsif seem intent on pushing this towards a level where it does require sanction. Kingsif has decided to remove a reply to the talk page discussion [316]. While the reply they removed seems unhelpful since it doesn't relate to improving the article so is something that should be dealt with on Kingsif talk page or not at all. (Kingsif doesn't seem to want any more comments from Domdeparis on their talk page but Domdeparis had already warned Kingsif about these issues so the simple solution was to drop it until it arose to a level that did require some sort of sanction and then open an ANI. They could explain why they didn't try to address it further with Kingsif when their early efforts were rebuffed when opening the thread.) But anyway, I'm not convinced the comment by Domdeparis requires removal and even if it does Kingsif clearly shouldn't be the one to do it given it was a reply to them and their reply before that did the same thing. Kingsif then tried to archive the discussion yet again [317] despite the fact others clearly felt it premature. They are free to ignore the discussion if they feel it is over, if no one else responds it will be archived in a few weeks or whatever, there's no reason it needs to be archived, especially not by a highly involved editor. IMO if there's any more nonsense like this Kingsif should be blocked from the article talk page and article at a minimum. (While they've stopped edit warring in the article, we cannot allow them to edit it if they can't be trusted with the talk page.) Nil Einne (talk) 08:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• I was given a talk page notification about this discussion, I'm just a minor player in this drama. I've made handful of edits to the article and talk, all of which were met with an aggressive response from Kingsif in either talk or edit summary. Not pleasant, but I'm an experienced editor and this isn't something that perturbs me at this stage. This is the sort of behaviour I know en:wiki tolerates, though I personally wish it didn't. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 08:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

OK I probably should have asked for an admin just to come and give a hand rather than open a thread on ANI. But it was the kind of behaviour from Kingsif that was one of the reasons I stepped back from editing, the edit warring and aggressiveness was getting pretty unpleasant. As I said I had tried to engage with Kingsif twice on his talk page, several times on mine and also on the article talk page and every single time any kind of discussion was rejected and met with aggressiveness that is why I couldn't address the subject with Kingsif. If someone could find a single moment where he showed any kind of desire to enter into a civil discussion with me I'd be very interested to see that as I must have missed it. Like I said I think that Kingsif has got too involved in this article and did not appreciate the modifications I brought in to his additions and was aggressive right from the start. I'm not looking for a sanction but a simple warning because this kind of behaviour drives away editors and sours the WP experience for all. --Dom from Paris (talk) 09:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Just as a reminder I believe it is difficult to discuss with an editor who reverts any attempts to do so and follows up with this "friendly" message on article talk pages I’ll ask for an IBAN on you next time you dump bullshit on my talk page, something I asked you not to do twice before when things escalate very quickly to this level dispute resolution becomes very difficult indeed. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:17, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I just read on a thread on your talk page in which I was mentioned that you claim not to have been informed of this ANI discussion. Just as a reminder I did inform you as is required immediately it was opened [318] and you undid my edit with this comment ‎you fucking deaf Dom?. I did also mention you in the initial comment so you should have also got a notification for that too. But just in case I'm pinging you to make sure I don't get accused of not notifying you. Dom from Paris (talk) 06:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Antoniotorreskingdomwealth‎ continuing legal threats

Antoniotorreskingdomwealth‎ (talk · contribs) continues to make legal threats on his talk page after being permanently blocked for disruptive editing. Maybe time to remove talk page access? 10mmsocket (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Done. El_C 06:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Pritam kumar roni das, complete lack of communication

Pritam kumar roni das (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made 1083 edits at en.wiki since registering in February 2020, but not a single edit to Talk or User talk space: Edit counter info. User talk:Pritam kumar roni das has a large number of warnings about uploading non-free files. They received a short block for copyright infringement, because of their file uploads, on 3 June this year. Their file upload log shows that after that block, they have uploaded at least a dozen files that have since been deleted.

They also keep creating articles that are very far from ready for mainspace. Several of their articles have been draftified and/or improved by other editors, but here are some examples of what Pritam kumar roni das placed in mainspace, before other people edited or moved the articles: 31 May, 13 August, today. They also managed to create Mon Phagun five times in 9 days, a few weeks ago – Mon Phagun was salted after that.

Several people have tried to communicate with Pritam kumar roni das. Most of their user talk page is automated notices/warnings, but there are a number of other messages as well. On 21 August, I posted this to their user talk page. They have made more than a hundred edits since, but not responded to that request, or reacted in any other way.

Since they are still uploading non-free files and creating articles with no sources and very little actual content, it is problematic that they are not reacting to any of their talk page notices. I'm not sure they know they have a user talk page at all. Maybe a longer block would get their attention, and they should not be creating articles at all until they understand sourcing. --bonadea contributions talk 18:59, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Another WP:COPYVIO indef (as above), somehow. Okay. El_C 19:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

So yet another user who edits on a mobile device has had to be blocked because of WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU. Of course they had to be blocked, but isn't it about time the underlying issue was fixed? And if it can't be fixed quickly (i.e. a lot faster than WMF timescales) shouldn't we disallow all editing from mobile devices until it is? This has long passed the point where it was simply an embarrassment. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

The issue with disallowing editing from mobile devices is that some editors edit constructively from mobile devices. I wonder if anyone has proposed fixing this at WP:VP/PBlaze The Wolf Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) (Stupidity by me) 19:29, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Many people have pointed out the problem, and the WMF have promised to fix it, but there seems to be very little sense of urgency from their side. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Like. Preach it, brother! El_C 19:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I wish there was some way we could convince WMF that this is something that needs to be fixed urgently, but it appears we will have to wait until the year 2587 for them to fix it (In case it wasn't obvious this is extreme exaggeration). Blaze The Wolf Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) (Stupidity by me) 19:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

It's been brought up and discussed QUITE at length here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course if it is possible to edit in some way it is possible to do so constructively. The problem is that it is also possible to do so non-constructively. And the way things are now there is virtually no way to interact with these editors to determine if the non-constructive editing is through ignorance or malice. So we assume malice and react accordingly. We block editors who do not know that they are doing wrong and leave them unlikely to return. Unless and until we can reliably interact with mobile editors, no one should be allowed to edit that way no matter how "good" or "constructive" of an editor they are. --Khajidha (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, in this case at least, ignorance or malice (and everything in between) is kind of irrelevant. There's persistent copyvios, so an unblock would be contingent on us being assured that this will stop. El_C 20:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Why are people assuming this is because of THEYCANTHEARYOU? This is a mobile web edit with an account not an IP or Android or worse iOS app edit. I occasionally edit with the mobile site and I always know when I've got an alert the red icon is hard to miss for me. Yes maybe the notification could be clearer that it's a newer talk page message but again this isn't like an edit from an IP or from an iOS device where there's no way to know.

Frankly even on a desktop I tend to notice the red notification more than new talk page IMO. It's not like we don't have plenty of people editing from desktop browsers who do the same thing, or there aren't people with desktop browsers who take ages to find their talk pages (I mean once who say this happened with I AGF is the case, obviously when someone just doesn't respond we have no idea if they don't know or they're just ignoring it).

BTW I would vehemently oppose any attempts to block editing from the mobile site and think anyone who supports the idea should be unwelcome here and definitely should not be an admin. Just because something works for you doesn't mean you're entitled to demand others follow you. A lot of the time whatever method the editor is using to edit, we have no idea if something is malicious. We take action to protect Wikipedia as we should. If an editor doesn't realise and leaves because of it, that's unfortunate but while we should do what we can to avoid it, ultimately it's always going to happen.

Telling editors to fuck off because they aren't like us and can't afford or don't want to use our devices or use the like some editors like to use them is far, far more harmful. The editor doesn't know about internal WMF-community politics. All they know is they've been told to fuck off completely even when they really did absolutely nothing wrong because Khajidha feels they are entitled to tell all such editors to fuck off.

Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Nil Einne, Khajidha is not an admin. Also, maybe one tinsy paragraph break for readability...? El_C 06:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I couldn't remember and decided it didn't matter since the admin bit was intended as a more general comment since I'm fairly sure I've seen similar comments from admins in previous discussions. Apologies about the paragraph breaks thing I've fixed it now also withdrew a statement I decided was inaccurate on testing.

As I think my comment made clear, this is the sort of thing I find incredibly annoying to the extent I want to leave Wikipedia and never come back when I read responses like that from Khajidha.

Again I don't know if this applies to any particular editor, but from comments I've read before, I get the feeling many editors including admins don't appreciate how significant a step disabling the web editor (and to some extent app editing) and importantly that not everyone is like them and uses devices like they do, with access to the same sort of devices etc. I've even seen some people suggest killing the app since it's unnecessary ignoring how many people seem to find it useful for reading.

People seem to forget because you don't like it and don't use it doesn't mean this applies to others, and there's no reason to think just because some editors prefer the desktop editor on mobile devices this is going to apply to everyone, no matter how much and how long some editors may use the desktop editor on their mobile devices. To be clear this doesn't excuse the problems which the WMF does urgently need to fix and I'm not disagreeing we should make talk page messages clearer even with the mobile web editor since I also recognise that not everyone is like me so yes plenty of people are going to not notice or will ignore the red icon.

Of course some people will ignore anything which was also a point I'm getting at. We aren't mind readers so unless someone has commented, it's very hard to guess why someone did something. Maybe the editor concerned ignored or missed the red box, maybe they saw their messages but ignored them. If the former, maybe if we had an orange box they would have seen it, maybe not. For mobile and app IP edits, we have a far greater degree of confidence. Also I think iOS? Android is probably something in between. I'd add that for any account, we also have to consider if they have email when guessing since new talk page messages are sent to email by default which could be ignored, disabled or sent to a span folder automatically or via filtering, or simply never seen if the email is rarely or never used; but ultimately this has to affect our confidence in any guess or why something is happening.

Note the situation with mobile web/app IP edits is bad enough that I specifically excluded from my comment but I think we still have to seriously considering the effect disabling them from editing compared to just dealing with those who become a problem whatever the reason. Especially if we cannot convince the WMF to at least allow us to send an explanation something like 'sorry editing from IPs from the mobile website is disabled because of flaws.....' As if we can't then it's very unclear to me that blocking all will be less likely to cause confusion than block when it's necessary. (Again please don't make suggestions like it's fine since they can just use the desktop editor which I prefer.)

Android account app edits is a sort of in between from my (very limited) experience with them. So while I wouldn't complete oppose banning then, I think it's even more of a case that unless we can convince the WMF to allow these editors to be redirected either automatically or with a message to editing from a browser I'm very unconvinced it's better. Even if we could convince the WMF, I'm unsure if it's definitely better since I wonder whether even mobile web editing might be problematic for a significant chunk of app editors. Because this isn't me I have no idea so I cannot give a particularly informed opinion.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

User:Shivajitheking

• Shivajitheking (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi, this user has been extremely disruptive in the last few days. They are WP:NOTHERE and only here to edit Umesh Kaushik, which I believe to be the subject themselves, it is up for AfD but they keep removing the tag and have also gamed the system by moving it across Draft & Wikipedia spaces, which causes the AfD to procedurally stop anyway. Please can an admin revert the significant damage that they have caused in the last few hours with the page moves? If you have the time, please could you review their behaviour in general? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Editor is now going around adding patent nonsense to random articles; see here and here Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

yes, noticed the ANI notice when I was about to give them standard vandalism warning. Not sure what’s going on with this user. They seem to be making some strange page moves Umesh Kaushik → Kaushik Umesh (now reverted). DeCausa (talk) 10:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Also saw this spamming. I think they are just trying to boost their edit count so they gain some user rights? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked. Could be related to Lovetogether (talk·contribs). Who knows. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Sadly, I think that you're right there. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

User:IMW1974 Continued personal attacks

Five years of pushing for Silicon Valley as an official place name

• Cristiano Tomás (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Silicon Valley
• Talk:Silicon Valley#RfC: Inclusion criteria of Silicon Valley, Santa Clara Valley and Santa Clara County, California

Cristiano Tomás does great work in Lusophone topic areas and in California history.

However, Cristiano Tomás has been very busy in the last five years pushing the concept of Silicon Valley as an official place name rather than the high-tech business phenomenon that it is. Cristiano Tomás focuses mostly on promoting San Jose as the center of Silicon Valley or the first on the list of Silicon Valley cities, but also adds "Silicon Valley" to articles in other cities. Cristiano Tomás often writes in articles that the location of something is in "San Jose, California, in Silicon Valley" or "Cupertino, California, in Silicon Valley." Of course, anything in these places is in Santa Clara Valley, or Santa Clara County, California, or the San Francisco Bay Area, but these are of no concern to Cristiano Tomás, who is intent on making our readers think that "Silicon Valley" is the default designation for the region, rather than a popular nickname. Cristiano Tomás is trying to turn Silicon Valley into a metropolitian region much like Greater Los Angeles or Metro Detroit, with San Jose at its center. Before Cristiano Tomás started making these changes, the metro region was acknowledged as Santa Clara County.

(A note about Silicon Valley: the name was coined in 1971 by newspaperman Don Hoefler. The idea put forward by Hoefler was that Stanford University's Frederick Terman and the high-tech industries of the area were helping each other to succeed, creating a hotbed of technological advances. "Silicon Valley" is an idea that serves as an overlay to the normal geopolitical place names. High-tech marketer Regis McKenna famously wrote in 2001 that "Silicon Valley Isn't a Place as Much as It Is an Attitude", which could be "replicated" in other places.[327] New York Times's John Markoff parroted this in 2009, writing Silicon Valley "is as much a state of mind as it is a physical place."[328] YouTube co-founder Brent Hurley said in 2013 that "Silicon Valley is more of a state of mind, it's a mentality among entrepreneurs" which could be established anywhere, not unique to Santa Clara County.[329] Brazilian Ambassador Pedro Borio said the same thing in 2016.[330] Venture capitalist Fred Wilson said "Silicon Valley is most certainly a mindset". PC inventor Lee Felsenstein said, "Silicon Valley is a state of mind in a generalized physical area".[331] All of these people and more have written about how Silicon Valley is an idea that started on the San Francisco Peninsula and grew to include San Jose. It's not purely a place, and certainly not your normal metropolitan region.)

Cristiano Tomás started adding "Silicon Valley" as an official place name in 2016, as far as I can tell. Here is a list of affected articles:

• Aug 2021 at Apple Park: [332]
• Aug 2021 at Netflix: [333]
• Aug 2021 at Computer History Museum: [334]
• Aug 2021 at Silicon Valley University: [335]
• Aug 2021 at Googleplex: [336]
• Aug 2021at David and Lucile Packard Foundation Headquarters: [337]
• Aug 2021 at Harker School: [338]
• Aug 2021 at Adobe World Headquarters: [339]
• Aug 2021 at San Jose Chamber of Commerce: [340]
• May 2021 at Kaiser San Jose Medical Center: [341]
• Apr 2021 at San Jose City College: [342]
• Apr 2021 at Santa Clara University: [343][344]
• Apr 2021 at Bloomingdale's: [345]
• Apr 2021 at Diamara Planell: [346]
• Apr 2021 at University of Silicon Valley: [347]
• Mar 2021 at Zoom Video Communications: [348]
• Mar 2021 at BlueJeans: [349]
• Mar 2021 at St. Patrick's School: [350]
• Mar 2021 at James Lick High School: [351]
• Mar 2021 at San Jose Convention Center: [352]
• Mar 2021 at Saint Leo the Great School (San Jose): [353]
• Mar 2021 at Saint Patrick School (San Jose, California): [354]
• Mar 2021 at Team San Jose: [355]
• Mar 2021 at San Jose Public Library: [356]
• Mar 2021 at Evergreen Valley College: [357]
• Feb 2021 at Iris Chang: [358]
• Jan 2021 at Berryessa, San Jose: [359]
• Dec 2020 at Willow Glen, San Jose: [360]
• May 2020 at Our Lady of Peace Shrine: [361]
• Dec 2018 at Romina Gupta: [362]
• Nov 2018 at Madrone, Morgan Hill, California: [363]
• Nov 2018 at East San Jose: [364]
• Nov 2018 at Santa Teresa, San Jose: [365]
• Nov 2018 at Morgan Hill Unified School District: [366]
• Jun 2018 at Westfield Valley Fair: [367]
• Jun 2018 at Plaza de César Chávez: [368]
• Jun 2018 at Stevens Creek Boulevard: [369]
• Nov 2017 at Template:Neighborhoods of San Jose: [370]
• Nov 2017 at San Jose Municipal Rose Garden: [371]
• May 2016 at Helder Antunes: [372]

The list shows that in March and August 2021, Cristiano Tomás kicked the effort into high gear. Three days ago, Cristiano Tomás moved the center of Silicon Valley from Sunnyvale to San Jose. For me, this was the final straw. I pushed back against the five years of skewed historic record, and began a Request for Comment at Talk:Silicon Valley#RfC: Inclusion criteria of Silicon Valley, Santa Clara Valley and Santa Clara County, California. Cristiano Tomás argued to keep doing what he has been doing, that Silicon Valley is the name of the metro area. This is highly disruptive.

I would like to see Cristiano Tomás acknowledge that "Silicon Valley" is a nickname, not an official place name, and that Santa Clara County, California is the proper metro name for the great majority of these cases. Binksternet (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree that SV is not an official place name - though there are times to additionally identify these places as being within Silicon Valley in an history sense (particularly for tech companies in the 1970s and 1980s), as long as it is fully clear that SV is not being used as an official place name but simply to designate that this is common non-official geographic name for the region. For example (because I know this is where I have included it), I think the mention of SV in Atari, Inc. in two places (after identifying Sunnyvale first, and then stating in the broad region for many of its facilities) is completely appropriate in the context because its not treating it as an official geographic name. --Masem (t) 18:16, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Certainly Atari and any other article related to the high-tech growth of Silicon Valley should describe the Silicon Valley connection for the reader. I shifted some words to make that happen at the Computer History Museum article. For other such articles, all it takes is some digging to find sources describing the connection. Binksternet (talk) 20:48, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, mentioning SV when tied to technology companies or aspects 100% is valid, but like the inclusion on town, schools or other businesses or places in the area is inappropriate unless there is a clear technology tie (like Sunnyvale being one of the key places many SV companies set up HQ or offices). --Masem (t) 23:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree completely with Binksternet and hope that Cristiano Tomás will voluntarily agree to desist. If not, an editing restriction may be necessary. That could possibly be a restriction on adding "Silicon Valley" to articles, leaving the editor free to make the case on article talk pages. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Also concur that this a general concept relating to the industry of the region, not a physical location that streets and schools unrelated to the metaphor are located in. It can be used to describe the socioeconomics of the article when relevant, not as a routine geographic listing for the introduction. Reywas92^Talk 00:52, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm unclear on why this content dispute ended up at AN/I already, but I agree with Binksternet that Cristiano has been pushing his idea too far too fast recently. Looking at his most recent contribs, I see he appears to be stalking and reverting Binksternet's removal of Silicon Valley from places where it's clearly ridiculous, as he did here today (on an article he hadn't edited before, it appears); and he reverted a lot more that I didn't check. So, yet, Cristiano, you need to slow down and maybe defer to the judgement of long-time editors in long-stable articles, until you can show a consensus for doing things differently. Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I am not involved with this dispute (and haven't looked at the diffs), but referring to the area as Silicon Valley doesn't seem prima facie nuts to me. For what it's worth, in cities on the south side of San Francisco Bay, lots of them have signage referring to Silicon Valley as a place name, and it's used in an official capacity pretty often as well (for example, the subway expansion to San Jose is officially called the Silicon Valley Extension Program). That said, User:Dicklyon has lived here much longer than me, and probably has a more nuanced opinion, but as far as I can tell it falls somewhere between "right" and "wrong but arguable either way", not "ANI-worthily wrong". jp×g 22:22, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: This ANI report is about the behavior, not the content, and if Cristiano Tomás is repeatedly doing this against consensus, then that is a problem and needs to be stopped somehow. We could institute a TBAN on SV, or on adding SV to sentences referring to city or county names, or etc. (PS: My opinion on content: SV can mean whatever the speaker or writer wants it to -- it can even refer to Big Tech or tech in general, regardless of location.) Softlavender (talk) 23:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment by Cristiano Tomás: Hello all, I apologize for my delayed response to this ANI, my weekend has been occupied by family events. I hope to take this opportunity to make my case that, A) my actions concerning the addition of "Silicon Valley" as a place name in articles were done in good faith, and that B) my actions concerning the recent RfC and reversions in regards to Binksternet were done because I believed it to be counter-productive for Binksernet to go around in a single day, changing all of the references to Silicon Valley as a geographic place across Wiki (including references added by myself but also other editors), when an ongoing discussion was being had on the SV talk page (which Binksternet opened) and which has yet to reach consensus.

Point A): My additions to references to Silicon Valley as a place name over the past however many years have been done in good faith. I say this because, being a local (no matter how anecdotal that may be) I have first hand experience knowing the term to refer the region (beyond just referring to it's tech industry) and because there is a significant amount of evidence to support the term's use to mean a specific geography (much of which I have shown in my arguments here, but this ANI is not about the actual topic of Silicon Valley's usage but of course on my actions). But anyway, I believed what I was doing was a benefit to all the geographic place articles (such as the cities or neighborhoods shown above in Binksternet's argument) because the fact is that Silicon Valley undoubtedly has more recognition than many of the individual cities and neighborhoods within it; ergo I thought (and still think) that mentioning their location within Silicon Valley is relevant and helpful to the reader. I do not refute the absolutely popular usage of the term as a metonym for the tech industry, much like Hollywood for the entertainment industry (but like Silicon Valley, Hollywood is also a real place; I wholly believe their articles can cover both their metonymical usage and their real-world, geographic places, but I digress). The fact is that I was not going against any established consensus on the matter, especially given that the Silicon Valley article and the terms usage as a geographic place was already existent in different articles across Wiki before my edits. I fully welcome that we are now trying to establish a consensus on the matter (no matter what the outcome be), but I have never acted against consensus.

Point B) My actions in the rapid reversions of Binksternet's unilateral, mass removal of all references to Silicon Valley as a geographic locale in articles across Wiki, were done because I believed it to be not in the spirit of good discussion and consensus-building to execute mass removals when Binksternet had just opened a discussion on the matter. At the time that Binksternet began the first (18:08, 10 September 2021) in their long list of removals of references to Silicon Valley as a place, the discussion ongoing at Talk:Silicon Valley ([of talk when Binksternet began a long series of removals]) was far from near consensus (and certainly not in favor of Binksternet's proposals). I had not continued to add references to SV as a place during the discussion, because the fact is that we are still in the process of establishing a consensus (I ask you all please to see the discussion on the talk to see that we are not agreed on any basis yet). My actions in reverting his removals (which were always explained in my edit summaries, as compared to Binksternet's which never responded to mine) were done because actions were done prematurely while a community discussion was being had. I understand that Binskternet believed my previous additions of SV as a place name over the past 5 years have been unwarranted (but I contend that additions over 5 years done in good faith are different from a rapid removal of all references while consensus is being sought), however he started a discussion on the matter, which I and other editors are participating in, and still Binksternet has taken to making sweeping changes to articles based on his side of the discussion. My reversion was to move the pages back to their Wikipedia:Stable version, as the discussion was on going. Binksternet nonetheless persisted in removing more references to SV as a place on more articles and did not engage in a discussion with me until he opened this ANI. (here is an example of: removing a reasonable reference to SV as a place name; followed by by reversion and edit summary where I ask him to stop his removals while we seek consensus on the discussion that he himself opened on the SV talk page; followed by Binkster reverting my reversion with no edit summary. I hate that this has been brought to an ANI, as I don't believe it was necessary, but the reality is that it was Binksternet who was acting against goodfaith and wiki policies, by opening a discussion to the community and still taking it upon himself to impose his view in the meanwhile.

In the end, I would like to say I am very open to all outcomes of the ongoing discussion, but I will stand strongly by my point that it is not ethical to start a discussion seeking community input on an apparently contentious topic and then promoting your viewpoint across articles at the very same time. Nonetheless, I hope Binksternet and I can find a reasonable meeting in the middle, because I truly believe in the spirit of WP:Compromise, but that is a two-way street. In response to Binksternet saying: "I would like to see Cristiano Tomás acknowledge that "Silicon Valley" is a nickname, not an official place name", I have never claimed its an official name or that it is the name of any geopolitical organization, which for some reason Binksternet continues to accuse me of. However, a nickname isn't what I would call it either, it's a name, just that. But anyway, that discussion isn't for here but for Talk:Silicon Valley. I have ceased reverting Binksternet's edits as I see no benefit it once he reverted my initial reversions (I, in no way, wish to WP:edit war). All I have done is ask that we respect the discussion and not cary out edits relevant to its results before they are achieved. Best, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 04:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Cristiano Tomás, yes, it is "ethical" to revert BOLD edits per WP:BRD, which Binksternet did. Since Silicon Valley is not an official place name, your edits over the years were BOLD. You must now await consensus (of the RFC) before attempting to reinstate your bold edits. That's how BRD works. Softlavender (talk) 04:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't have characterized them as bold (based on the rationale I gave above), so I guess that's where a point of confusion arose for me. But as I already said above, I will not attempt to reinstate my previous edits while the discussion is ongoing. I genuinely apologize to the misunderstanding, my only goal has been, like I said, to await consensus. I have taken a step back from reinstating these edits since Binksternet's first revert of my revert, I have no interest in creating conflict. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 05:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Just for clarification, every edit is WP:BOLD unless you get consensus first.-- Mike 🗩 15:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Darth Mike:, To be honest I had never thought of it that way, but I certainly will from now on. Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 16:55, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

User:2001:BB6:76AA:F758:31B9:3D67:E4D0:8C87 and its IP variations

This IP user has been harassing me on my Talk page because of my stance against the inclusion of minor entertainment figures on the Deaths section of the 2021 page, specifically Michael K. Williams - though this report is *not* calling for a mediation of any debate relating to this. On my talk page, this user has made comments to me such as:

• "I've looked over your history and its apprent you like gate keeping"[373]
• "Why are so you against it? Have you even watched the wire? Like I get that there's a meme about wikipedia editors being souless and joyless beings but you are really going out of your way to make that seem true. PUT MICHAEL. K WILLIAMS ON THE SEPTEMBER 2021 DEATH PAGE. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THIS WILL END"[374].
• "I HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN. YOU WILL REGRET NOT PUTTING MICHAEL. K WILLIANS IN THE SEPTEMBER 2021 DEATH PAGE. I WILL HOUND YOU! I WILL ANNOY YOU! I WILL AROUSE YOU! I WILL SCARE YOU! I WILL MAKE YOU CRY UNTIL YOU DO AS I SAY. YOU ONLY DON'T WANT WANT A BLACK MAN IN THAT PAGE CAUSE YOU HATE BLACK PEOPLE! RASCIST"[375].

He left me these messages and various accusations of bad faith about my motives on the 2021 page, all while refusing to read through the discussions on Talk:2021 and blatantly misinterpreting the page's edit history and assigning the lion's share of the actions to me.

Additionally, he created an account named User:IhateScrubby (which has already been permanently banned), on which he removed Mikis Theodorakis and Jean-Paul Belmondo with an edit summary that said "I dunno Scrubby said there's too many entertainment figures and what not. Lads we can't include people just because they appeared in a few flims or wrote a few songs 😉"[376]. He also said on the Talk:2021 page "Srubby you need to stop listen to the cartoon people in your head who will take away all of wikipedia's money and have you sent to prison for "including too many pop culture and entertainment figures". Stop listening to the cartoons in your head and listen to the real people who god forbid may actually feel represented if someone from their country gets included here"[377].

I think his behaviour speaks for itself, and I've not dignified most of his comments with a response. Thescrubbythug (talk) 12:56, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 2 weeks (/64) with TPA disabled. Will scrub the harassment momentarily. El_C 13:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I WILL AROUSE YOU!...just incase anybody missed that part lol – ².O.^Boxing 13:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I did. Yay! El_C 13:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

El_C, such a beautiful and vibrant soul. I kinda like your responses. Awwww, can I keep listening to the cartoons in my head? --ARoseWolf 16:37, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

ARoseWolf, funny you cartoon-say that. I'm watching Elliott from Earth right now (11-min episodes, I'm at ep 5 "Idiosyncratic Induction"), which is super-adorable and fun! El_C 16:55, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

El_C, Awww, I love cartoons. Never watched any growing up but I have watched a few with my daughter. Enjoy! --ARoseWolf 17:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Need help undoing unilateral page splits/page moves

I don't know if this is the right noticeboard for this since, but a new user (Rakeem Abdiel Gunawan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)) has decided to move History of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi to Socialist people’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. After this, they moved the newly created Socialist people’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya to History under Muammar Gaddafi. After discussing this with the user on their talk page, this appears to have been a good-faith mistake in the procedure of splitting an article. However, since I am not an admin nor a page mover, I can't undo the page moves to restore the article to its original title. I also can't delete articles spuriously created by the user for apparent copy-paste moves (such as Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (2001-present) and Afghanistan). If anybody with proper permissions do that, it would be helpful; the redirect web is a bit of a mess. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, the technical problem I am running into is moving History under Muammar Gaddafi back to History of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Done. El_C 06:51, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

El C, looks like you missed the talk pages? I was able to move the talk page back by first moving Talk:History under Muammar Gaddafi back to Talk:Socialist people’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, and then back to Talk:History of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi. Some of the leftover redirects could probably be deleted now? By the way Mikehawk10, in the future, this kind of moves over redirects can usually be handled at WP:RM/TR. --rchard2scout (talk) 07:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Donezo. I always forget about the talk pages. One day, it'll be done automagically (truly), and the COD gunners shall rejoice. El_C 13:09, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rchard2scout: Thank you for the tip! I will keep that noticeboard in mind if I encounter things like this again. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 18:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

They can't hear me!

• Cianshe3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is currently on some kind of Irish/Catholic crusade, adding "Catholic" or "Irish" to BLPs without providing sources while also removing sourced content such as this. I've reverted a few and left a warning template on their userpage, but they're editing from a mobile device and are still cracking on. I'm bored of reverting them now. I think a block to get their attention might be needed. – ².O.^Boxing 10:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I initially didn't notify them because, well what's the point if they don't see notifications. But in anticipation of the typical "you're a dumbass, big red notice, NOTIFY!" comments, I've done so now. – ².O.^Boxing 10:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I support this request. Their editing appears to be based on an agenda - e.g., removing cited content that supports mixed descent, and making large claims, without citation on the "importance" of Ireland. QuiteUnusual (talk) 10:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Their edits are tagged "mobile web edit," so it looks like they're using the mobile version of the Wikipedia website and not the iOS or Android apps (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). According to WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU, logged-in users using the mobile version of the site should be getting notifications when someone posts to their talk page. Aoi (青い) (talk) 11:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I thought the issue was with mobile devices in general. If that's the case, a stern warning from a scary admin would probably be more appropriate. – ².O.^Boxing 11:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Some ridiculous edits by someone with an agenda. I've threatened a topic ban on anything to do with the Irish if they don't respond here. Doug Wellertalk 12:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree. They remind me of someone else, who would keep putting Catholic on articles and insisting Halloween was Irish. Let me see if I can dig them out. Mind you I watch so many Irish articles and see so many POV pushers in those areas it's hard to keep them all straight. Canterbury Tailtalk 15:55, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hallowe'en is essentially a modern/American version of Samhain, which is a Celtic/Irish festival, so hardly an outlandish claim CiphriusKane (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

But it is an outlandish claim, because Halloween isn't Irish. – ².O.^Boxing 21:09, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Strange deletion of Non-Aligned Movement

The article Non-Aligned Movement, which has existed since at least 2017 and on a definitely notable topic, was suddenly deleted earlier today as copyright infringement. Stranger still, the deletion log message by Jimfbleak doesn't cite what the page was infringing, and instead simply links to Earwig's Copyvio Detector, which obviously can't show what the details of the infringement were since the page is now deleted.

Can someone take a look and verify whether the article was actually infringing, and if it was, whether there are any older revisions that can be restored without the infringing content? (Since, again, this is a pretty notable/important topic to post-World War II policics, and is even categorized as a level 5 vital article per the talk page.)

Thanks, Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 21:26, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I think someone might be going to the village stocks... dudhhr_Contribs 21:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I was honestly very much shocked to see the article gone. As I mentioned on article's talk page (which is still available), even if there is a proven copyright infringement, I think that part should be removed (as long as it's possible). Otherwise we can create a perfect Achilles' heel on Wikipedia where any spoiler actor can import some irregular material and by that ruin the hard work of other volunteers. In this case it is particularly sensitive as this is the topic which may attract interest and collaboration among editors from 'beyond global centers' communities which are less involved in Wikipedia knowledge production.--MirkoS18 (talk) 22:04, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Moxy: was the one who originally tagged it as a copyvio and for CSD. Maybe they can be of assistance. Canterbury Tailtalk 22:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yet again this demonstrates that far too many people here don't care about copyvio. It is entirely appropriate to remove copyvios and delete if necessary. The hosting of copyvios and the community's contempt for attempts to deal with it are an existential threat against Wikipedia. We should be praising people like Jimfbleak and Moxy who are attempting to deal with it, not attacking them because "its a notable topic". The backlogs at CCI and the like are so large that deletion should be expected. Those who think that it's OK to for us to ignore copyvio have no place on WikipediaNigel Ish (talk) 23:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: We should not praise people for deleting important and thorough articles due to their misuse of copyright violation assessment tools. We should, in fact, criticize them, and demand they do better going forward. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It is clear that anyone who edits in the copyright field will get no protection from the community, as you continue your attacks against attempts to fix it. There appears to be no point in attempting to help out in areas like CCI as people like you will just undermine and attack.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If nobody restores the page in the next 10 minutes, I will re-create a stub; that may create some history cleanup later but this is an article that must exist. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

A page now exists again at that name. There are certainly many redirects (such as Secretary-General of the Non-Aligned Movement) that need to be restored or recreated as well. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:54, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

When this page is restored beyond a stub, I will be happy to restore all of the redirects. That won't be hard to do. I just want to see the outcome of this discussion first. I was surprised to see the article deleted rather than the copyright violation simply removed. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 23:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I am 100% certain the result of the discussion will include an article existing at that title. Was there any discussion of copyvios? I see nothing on the (not-deleted) talk page. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, it looks like Explicit has already restored all of the redirects for you. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 23:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I can understand deleting redirects if an article has been deleted by AFD on the basis of lack of notability and there being no better place to send the redirects to. I don't understand why redirects would be deleted when an article on a notable topic is deleted (or better stubbified) for copyvio. Deleting redirects is like delinking - a statement that this is not just a cooyvio issue, this subject does not merit an article. ϢereSpielChequers 11:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

These redirect pages showed up on AnomieBOT III's broken redirects list. As far as I knew, this article was deleted as a copyright violation. Admins and editors regularly patrol AnomieBOT III's lists which update every 6 hours and broken redirects are tagged for deletion unless the redirect has occurred because of a bad page move and then the redirect is corrected. It's best for admins to review AnomeBOT III's list because otherwise, the bot will simply delete them all as a matter of its regular duties. When I saw that the deletion was questioned here, I came here and offered to restore the redirects once it was clear that the deletion was a mistake but another admin restored them before the copyright violation question was cleared up, at least to me. If you want a different procedure for handling broken redirects, that's a conversation that should probably involve Anomie because we rely on his bot to report them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

While I can appreciate people wanting to help with copyright, you have to be careful not to be overzealous and double check especially if it's a very old article. This one in question showed two major "violations" on earwig, [378] and [379]. In both instances, the websites copied wikipedia, not the other way around. I have restored the article and will be tagging the talk page with the backwards copyvio tool. (edit: It's not letting me restore all the edits so it's going to be a process) Wizardman 23:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

With 2,747 edits in the page history, these restorations can take a while. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I didn't delete this lightly, and I checked, I thought, that the deleted page post-dated the copied page. Looking again, I may have misread the data, if that's the case, my apologies for the confusion. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:19, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I also though i checked.....all good now....my bad.--Moxy- 12:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

HelloColdRenegade WP:NOTHERE

• HelloColdRenegade (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

[380] [381] [382] Pretty self-explanatory; this editor has only made three edits, and all three completely flagrant BLP violations. Editor is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Curbon7 (talk) 03:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Curbon7: Already reported at AIV, and combined with the edits appearing in the edit filter log, I'm not sure it's necessary to bring it up here. This editor will be blocked as soon as someone can get to it. General Ization ^Talk 03:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

And has now been blocked indef by El C. General Ization^Talk 03:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely and scrubbed. I was just about to say the same thing, but then got edit conflcited, then got edit conflicted, again. And and you know I hold grudges, still! . Anyway, yeah, for future reference, this is standard AIV fare rather than what ANI is generally for. El_C 03:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Yet another Nazi (again)

68.206.248.178 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This IP editor was blocked by RickinBaltimore, later lengthened by Drmies, as a result of "Yet another Nazi", an ANI thread from May. They appear to back to their antisemitic ways, pushing a racist 9/11 conspiracy theory at September 11 intelligence before the attacks (diff). Looking at just their reverted contribs, there's also abhorrent nonsense here and here. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 6 months. El_C 03:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I think I was able to scrub the worst of it, but possibly missed a few dog whistle gems. El_C 03:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

El C hard at work scrubbing away the filth Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Far be it from me to be seen on the side of anti-semitic Nazis but I do think that every editor who receives a block should get a talk page notice, informing them of why they are blocked and how long the block will be. Yeah, I know AGF isn't a suicide pact but I just like to see consistency, even when dealing with conspiracy kooks. Of course, I deal more with wannabe Instagram models than Nazis. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 04:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:RBI (see number three specifically) and WP:DFTT are the best ways to deal with these. Do you think they don't know what they are doing or why they received the block? MarnetteDTalk 04:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Liz, I previewed the following message: {{subst:uw-blocknotalk time=6 months reason=[[WP:DE disruptive editing]]. Specifically, racist provocations, still}} — but then I closed the window. I'm content with that decision. El_C 04:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

BTW, I'm reminded how a few years ago, with a similar DENY block, Debresser asked me something to the effect of: aren't you required to post a block notice in all instances? I replied with: no, there is no such requirement. El_C 04:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

SPA Promo Possible Undisclosed Paid Editing By Itspoojkins

Itspoojkins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

To appreciate the magnitude of this, it’s important to note that X'treme GH and Mac Nuru are one and the same person as both refer to the same musician. Below is a timeline of events.

• In February 22, 2015, Worldbruce correctly declined an article titled “X'treme GH” created by Itspoojkins at AFC see here.
• Itspoojkins recreates the article again on April 2015 and it was declined once again by Oo7565 see here
• The article is quickly resubmitted on April 6(the following day) and yet again declined by BenLinus1214 see here
• It is yet again aggressively submitted on April 7(the next day) and once more it is declined by Wiae see here
• There is a short break, but once again it is submitted on July 24 2015 and was correctly declined by Sulfurboy see here.

Note that this is 5 times the article has been declined under the name of “X’treme GH”

Under The Name Of Nuru (rapper)

Perhaps in order to evade scrutiny they stopped using the previous name of the artist X’treme GH and begin to use other names

• Under this new incarnation the article is sent to AFD and is deleted
• It is recreated and correctly slammed with a G4 by Lemongirl942, see here.
• At this point they are beginning to really become disruptive and Praxidicae asks them if they engage in UPE see here and they deny this.

Under The Name Of Mac Nuru

• The article is created once again but on July 30 DMySon correctly moves the article to draft see here
• They change the name of the article to Mac Nuru (Musician) I moved the article to their draft see here
• They once again change the name of the article and move it back to mainspace as Mac Nuru (singer).

In all this is 9 times they have intentionally attempted to game the system, they have shown they aren’t here to build an encyclopedia and it’s important to note this begun since 2015. I am proposing an indefinite block altogether. Their TP alone clearly shows they aren’t necessarily here to build an encyclopedia. The disruption is getting exponentially worse. Celestina007 (talk) 15:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Noo, mobile diffs, one weakness, etc. El_C 15:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@El_C, I’ve removed the mobile format. Could you check it now? Celestina007 (talk) 18:41, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Instantly Done. El_C 18:45, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this editor currently has Draft:Mac Nuru, Draft:Mac Nuru (musician) and Draft:Mac Nuru (singer), all about the same person you mention above. I've found that it isn't uncommon for some editors to start new versions of articles when a previous version is moved to Draft space which results in duplicate articles but I haven't run into three existing versions before. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 18:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I also found Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mac Nuru so it's been deleted in two AFD discussions. I've asked on their talk page for them to come and engage in this discussion but I'm not sure how frequently they edit here. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 18:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I've already blocked indef, but then got edit conflicted by Liz, and you know I hold grudges! Anyway: User_talk:Itspoojkins#Indefinite_block. El_C 18:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll stress that I'm more concerned with seeing the same kind of copyvios as 2016 now repeating in 2021. So they'll need to provide some assurances for that. As well, the WP:PROMO issues will also need to be addressed (WP:PAID and/or otherwise WP:COI). El_C 18:43, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Liz @El_C, you two. 😂. Celestina007 (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

A clear case of UPE and COI. Repeatedly re-created, The subject title and its alternatives must be blocked. DMySon (talk) 05:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Continued creation of non-notable articles by User:N1TH Music

• N1TH Music (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has a long history of creating articles in mainspace that are consistently PRODed, speedily deleted, moved to draftspace, or AfD'd. While they have been somewhat responsive to users attempting to explain to them not to create large numbers of articles on non-notable subjects, they have nevertheless continued making more, most recently Ceathramh Garbh. Other examples include Railway Driving Motor Car, British rail Locomotive 02 001, and Allnabad. Myself [383] and other editors [384] [385] have asked them to cease making articles on things that do not meet WP:GNG, but they seem to be refusing to hear the message [386]. The most telling example is Loch Urigull, which upon being PRODed the user updated to say "Please delete this, it was a mistake." (this article has since been deleted). Making one mistake is not a big deal, but a look at User talk:N1TH Music shows just how many times their articles have been deleted or proposed for deletion by a variety of editors, showing how big the issue is.

In addition, they have repeatedly added excessive detail to articles, despite being asked to stop [387] [388] with little regard for Wikipedia's policies regarding reliable, verifiable, and independent sources (on one article, they added no less than 40 references, all to photographs on Flickr [389]).

I have no reason not to believe this user is acting in good faith, and I do not think they deserve to be blocked or banned. However, I believe it would be appropriate to restrict them from creating new articles until they are better able to understand the difference between notable and non-notable subjects. Multiple users have tried to advise them about notability and proper references, but they have continued to violate Wikipedia's policies on these. I do not see any other remedy besides a ban on creating new articles, at least for a few weeks. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - in similar cases, editors have been restricted to using the AfC process. This may be an appropriate solution here, with maybe a restriction on no more than, say, three articles at AFC at a time. It may be that over time N1TH Music can demonstrate that they have grasped WP:N, WP:RS etc. and the restriction can be lifted. Mjroots (talk) 06:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that this would be a good solution to the issue. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I've just redirected Leslie Railway (2 earlier aFC rejections of a draft were seeminginly not taken on board and a fork created), still WP:TROUTing myself for dePRODing Railway Driving Motor Car (though there may be something useful related but possibly under different titles), and examined Ardvar which does not seem to meet Wikipedia:UKVILLAGES (Is this one, two or three cottages). Went to talk page to issue warning ANI was likely if behaviour continued but it seems we are already rightfully here. The likes and actions on N1TH Music's is a possible but not definite indicator of an editor who may be here to disrupt. I think MjRoot's suggestion of AfC restriction is a good way forward; and strongly recommend it is implemented if N1TH Music fails to appear at this discussion and that the discussion is not left to drift into archival with no action. I'd also ideally want an indicator that if the editor should then swtitches to systemic minor problematic edits across multiple article that would simply result in a likely #indef block for WP:NOTHERE. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:54, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm here I've made it to the discussion N1TH Music (talk) 07:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC) I'm sorry I didn't come earlier but I thought it was a discussion about me not one where I try to justify myself. I want to make it clear that I absolutely have not here to disrupt anything, ever since I started editing all of my edits were with the intent to help others by adding information or creating something new, it was a hobby to be honest back when I made Ardvar, Unapool, Inverlael etc. and same thing with the individual locomotive articles. It may seem to you that I was directly ignoring advice or instructions but no, I had already made 12 new articles about individual locomotives and the one about Railway Driving Motor car over the span of 2 days and none of them were proposed for deletion with the exception of my class 02 locomotive articles where I thought the problem was a lack of information not the fact that I could just rewrite everything in the existing space. Once I was told to stop I immediately did and did what I don't remember who it was but it's in y talk page suggested, expanding the current articles. So I added details to British Rail Class 01 and British rail class 02, the latter of which was unfinished. British Rail Class 01's edit was completely removed while class 02 only the sources where taken out because something I did not know at the time, Flickr is not a reliable source due to people being able to just write whatever they want under that caption of an image. So I never did it again. But as for my edit of British Rail Class 314 I still don't know why it was removed, unlike my edits to 02 and 01 they didn't go into excessive detail at all, it was a simple table saying Unit number, Livery, Withdrawl date, and disposition for each of the 16 units. And I sourced it with 1 clean reliable source. If that's too much information than how come List of British Rail Class 91 locomotives isn't, it is the same thing except it's a dedicated article that goes into far more detail. As for my old villages that apparently don't comply with Wikipedia:UKVILLAGES well they were all reviewed when I made them like months ago I think. I thought reviewed meant accepted so I kept making more, such as Allnabad. And as for Loch Dionard, Loch Urigull and the 58m tall mountain, I was on an article about Sutherland and there were so many places with links all of which were red so I thought I'd create pages from these red links. But Apparently they're to skin deep too. I finally understand that now, I don't need to be blocked or temporarily blocked, I was just experimenting earlier because I didn't know better, I understand what's wrong with everything except my British Rail Class 314 edit, if someone could please explain to me, I'll start talking about more notable topics in future or better I should probably clarify with someone (ideally one of you 2) if an article is worth creating before creating it. N1TH Music (talk) 07:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@N1TH Music: that's an encouraging post. We were all new once, and we've all made mistakes along the way. Doing so is fine as long as we learn from our mistakes. Issues with indiviual articles need to be discussed with the editor concerned, or on the article's talk page, or at Wikiproject level. Am happy to provide assistance / guidance on future article creation. As it's Sutherland you're interested in, there's a prime candidate for an article mentioned at WT:UKT. Mjroots (talk) 13:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@N1TH Music: I concur with Mjroots and WP:AGF your post seems sincere. To state the obvious: should a pattern of systemic problematic edits or edits that are WP:UNDUE occur then you back here, perhaps in very short order and the outcome would likely not be as lenient. I'd also recommend any new articles are submitted via AfC, and listening to any advice given. But lets concentrate on the positive, I think you would be most welcome back if you are making what the community would regard as useful contributions. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:48, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@N1TH Music: I appreciate you coming here and engaging with us in good faith. Wikipedia is not easy to learn. I started myself 2 months ago and made plenty of mistakes while I was first learning. As I said when I posted this initially, I believe you are acting in good faith and that with time and experience you can become a valuable contributor to Wikipedia. I strongly recommend you take the advice and help that Mjroots and Djm-leighpark have offered. I'm willing to help as well, but UK railways are not my area of expertise (I'm in the U.S.). I recommend we leave this open for a few days, and if N1TH Music turns their words here into actions, this be closed without any sort of sanction. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I understand everything all 3 of you have said and I greatly appriciate what you are doing to help me, I've already been told by one of you that I should make an article about the wester pipe railway if I wish to make more railbased articles but Trainsandotherthings I'm not sure how I can turn the words into actions, do I make an article on something worthy of an article, or what, I'm confused and I definitely want this closed without any sanctions done to me so I hope you could elaborate on what I need to do to prove myself a good editor but even after that, there's one more thing that I'm concerened of N1TH Music (talk) 15:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@N1TH Music: Suggest you work up the Wester pipe railway article at User:N1TH Music/Wester pipe railway. It's not a formal AFC there, but doing it that way will leave you to work the article up in relative peace and those interested in giving you advice and assistance will be able to do that. When the article is ready for mainspace it can be moved. Mjroots (talk) 05:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Edit-warring at Catacombs of Rome

Veverve (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · SPI) has now reverted 3 times in 24 hours to include his favoured content at Catacombs of Rome after two different editors (myself and Diannaa) reverted his inclusion of a lengthy block quote that did not include attribution.

This is the original edit which is a direct copy-paste from this PBS article. Initially included without attribution, it was a clear copyright violation, though it was undone with the suggestion it be converted into prose.

That was reverted here (1).

I restored the article to the version that resulted from Diannaa's revert (there was some minor vandalism by an IP in between) and that was reverted here (2).

I undid that second revert and encouraged engagement on the article talk page per WP:BRD. Without waiting for other editors to consider his proposed edits, that was reverted here (3).

That last revert re-added the block quote (again without attribution) and Veverve then went back and added attribution (and some minor rewording) after the fact. His original addition remains a copyright violation (within the edit history). That may need to be dealt with via REVDEL (though its arguably less copyvio as it currently appears) and Veverve's edit-warring needs to be dealt with also. St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I added a long quote. It was then removed because the quote was too long, and not for any other reason which I am aware of. I agree, the quote was too long.

I added back the paragraph, and paraphrased part of it. To me, this fixed the previous problem.

Stalwart then said it was OR and vandalism, and removed it. This action is something I do not really understand, as I told the user. At best, the paragraph is missing the attibution of the opinion expressed and of the quotes.

Stalwart came to my talk page and said: Either its a quote from you (original research) or from someone else (without attribution). Either way its not appropriate. Please take it to the article talk page. This made me feel the problem was the attribution of the quotes, i.e. I had not stated who was the person who said those words within the body of the article.

I tried to understand why Stalwart undid my edit. It appears it was to no avail, as I still currently do not understand what I was reproached at the time. I thought the user wanted me to state to whom the quote belonged, as he/she also said on the talk page: I'm the second person who has taken issue with your use of block quotes without attribution and you have blindly reverted both times, contrary to WP:BRD. Paraphrase properly and rewrite the paragraph with proper citations and your edits likely won't be reverted.

I then reverted, violating 3R as I thought the misunderstanding was cleared, that the dispute I had with Stalwart was over (WP:NOTBURO). I added back the mildly paraphrased paragraph, then paraphrased it even more and added whose opinion it was and to whom the quotes belonged, with now most of it being paraphrased. My goal was not to edit war.

Now, Stalwart has accused me of copyvio. He/she also stated I am still trying to insert the same block quote without attribution despite the fact I have put a source everytime I put those information, that I changed the format of the paragraph everytime, and that I gave a clear attribution in my third edit. So, I still do not know what I am blamed for when it comes to editing, as it ranged from OR to failure of attribution to copyvio.

I feel this situation is due to a failure to communicate on Stalwart's part.

Veverve (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Veverve, are you familiar with the Wikipedia maxim of WP:ONUS? Anyway, as an historian who has been on Wikipedia since 2004, your addition reads awkwardly to me. I don't know a lot about the content to comment on that aspect, but it isn't just the overquoting. Much of it reads like an argumentative essay rather than an encyclopedia entry ("indeed," etc.). Something I've struggled with in my early days here, btw. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect for you to collaborate with others on the article talk page to get a refined version that meets general approval. Does that make sense? El_C 02:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@El C: I had included the information, due to the clear reference to the Christian historiography at the name Catacomb Church, where I had put a hatnote to redirect to the catacombs article. The information Christian used those catacombs to hide can also be found here and here, and its debunk here. I was not aware of the ONUS policy, thanks for telling me.

I would have gladly worked on the talk page with others to improve this paragraph, but I was never given clear direction as to why my inclusion was bad after the first revert. At not point did Stalwart say clearly: "The quote is too long", "The paraphrases are too close to the original", "You must name your source in the body of the article", "This information does not improve the article", or "Such a long quote is copyvio". Instead, I got the impression - maybe falsely - that I was disdainfully given a riddle to solve with minimum information. I always try to be as clear, to the point and complete when someone requests some explanations from me, even if it means being verbose sometimes (e.g. here and here); so, I expect the same from other contributors as well. Veverve (talk) 03:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Veverve, I understand, but when disputants edit war, that's bad, m’kay? Anyway, hopefully, this can now be remedied by working toward a version that everybody's happy with — or at least, least unhappy with. El_C 03:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@El C: understood. @Stalwart111: I have reverted my edits, so hopefully we can work on implementing this paragraph in a way which suits both of us, throught clear and and relaxed discussion which do not beat around the bush. Veverve (talk) 03:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Certainly happy to do that. My reasons (and I imagine Diannaa was the same) were multiple, and my edit summary was not exhaustive. My not listing every problem with your multi-problem edit is not a "failure to communicate" on my part. There were many problems with that paragraph, made worse by your unwillingness to discuss it. There's no riddle; its bad editorial practice, underwhelming content, a copyright violation, a quote without attribution, an addition without consensus, being edit-warred into an article. You're an experienced editor, I shouldn't have to explain these things to you. And I shouldn't have to bring something like that here for you to finally take note of WP:BRD. *shakes head*. That said, it's been self-reverted now so there's probably no need for a bright-line 3RR block, and we'll have a chat about it on the talk page. St★lwart¹¹¹ 05:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Stalwart111, RE: has now reverted 3 times in 24 hours [...] it's been self-reverted now so there's probably no need for a bright-line 3RR block — from the benefit of my experience, a WP:3RR violation involves a minimum of 4 reverts per 24 hours, not 3. Further, even if it were 4, one would never (ever) be a blocked after they have self reverted. No probably about it. El_C 05:47, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Good, I'm glad. St★lwart¹¹¹ 05:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Bruno Rene Vargas

In April this year I created a draft page for the movie TÁR. User:Bruno Rene Vargas, who at the time was having what I'll call a credit dispute over Cocaine Bear, elected to shove this version to my userspace, and make their own version as a means of spite over my decision to stop the fight at Cocaine Bear by relocating his draft with this abysmal and pathetic rationale "It seems unfair to me that someone like you who months ago reproached my way of creating drafts now does the same and does not suffer what I suffered at the time with Draft: Cocaine Bear. I proceed to send your draft to your personal workshop because I consider that my draft was created with a better format and information, just as you did with User:Bruno Rene Vargas/Cocaine Bear (film). There was a back and forth back then and I, just not wanting to continue dealing with it, dropped the issue. Cut to now, when I notice that the film TAR has now begun filming, I decided to correct the wrong done unto me and use my version and move it to draftspace. Vargas, now using the account @BRVAFL: (despite "permanently retiring") is again utilizing absuive edit practices to continue this spite to again garner credit by twice shoving my work out of the way, despite being warned not to. They are not entitled to any regardless, I created it first anyway as per the edit history, they have no claims to that and has gone on to create multiple needless userspaces I do not want just to continue spiting me. I demand at this point they be blocked for their abusive edit practices and that my version of the article be restored back to userspace. They fundamentally do not care about what's best for the site, just what's best for them. Rusted AutoParts 23:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@TAnthony:@Anthony Appleyard: would WP:HISTMERGE be usable here to clean up all the needless new pages BRV created? Rusted AutoParts 23:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll also ping @Liz:, BRV seems to have taken unbridge with some of her decisions too, from the looks of it. Rusted AutoParts 00:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping but I just do not get the issue about getting "page creator" credit among editors working on contemporary films. This is just pettiness. No one is keeping score and handing out awards for who creates the most film pages. Is this about bragging rights? Work on the article that is the most developed and complete no matter who made the first edit. This is like the old days when talk page participants would yell "FIRST!" when they posted the first comment. I thought this in-fighting would end when Starzoner was blocked but it seems to be endemic to the subject matter. You should be working together to create great articles, not competing with each other. Liz^{Read! Talk!} 01:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

P.S. I write this without examining the facts of the case so I'm not passing judgment on who is right, just shaking my head that this bickering is still going on. And Bruno, I thought you retired...no? Liz^{Read! Talk!} 01:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I highlight the credit aspect as that's really the only rationale I can fathom as to why Bruno conducts themselves in the way they do. I used to be similarly minded when I would see duplicate versions of an article/draft I made but over time I realized it's both pointless, and duplicate pages tended to fall on my shortcoming of not fully double checking if it already existed. I just wouldn't go to the lengths Bruno has, by sending different versions of the same content spiraling all over the site just to insert theirs. Rusted AutoParts 08:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It does not seem very smart to come here to accuse me making use of lies such as the fact of having cited a dispute in which it was not even you who was arguing with me, you only got to make page movements without anyone having requested it. The one who should be punished for abusing your page-moving privileges is you since you can clearly see the history of unnecessary movements you made to position your draft.BRVAFL (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

You are moving pages simply to spite. That is abusing your abilities. Your choosing to ignore I intervened in a dispute where you were pulling the same shit on @Vistadan: doesn't negate that. Whether I was involved with the Cocaine Bear dispute from the start is not relevant, you were redirecting them repeatedly, despite their version having better information at the time, and you continuing to do that just for the sake of beingf first. Here, in this instance, This isn't two editors making drafts at the same time, this is you LITERALLY discrediting my efforts cause you believe I screwed you over or something. All because you were so offended I simply asked you to improve your draftwork style. How pathetic. Rusted AutoParts 23:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy link to previous ANI discussion about this issue and these editors: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1064#User:Bruno_Rene_Vargas_draftwarring. Schazjmd (talk) 23:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

"Bruno Rene Vargas agrees not to repeat a move of a draft to userspace to create space for his own draft" they certainly ignored that. Rusted AutoParts 23:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm definitely wasting my time here, the fact that there are people like you who prioritize their whims over what others have to contribute tells me that the best decision will be to definitively withdraw. I already tried several times, first when I was editing on the Spanish Wikipedia (where I am blocked up to now) and now the same thing happens to me on the English Wikipedia. This will be my last edition, for me to do what you consider most appropriate, at the end of the day life is too fleeting to waste time in banal discussions like this. If creating pages about movies is not allowed here then I will stop writing about movies and instead start writing my own movie.BRVAFL (talk) 00:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I prioritized ending your bickering over something so trivial as who created it first, not some petty whim like deliberately hijacking an existing edit space to spite. Rusted AutoParts 00:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Uninvolved opinion The shenanigans with TÁR and the user pages (literally hijacking a page out of what appears to be some WP:OWN silliness) are grounds for drastic and unequivocal action. Suggest A) speedy deleting the hijacked pages and restoring the originals (because this is a collaborative project, so if Bruno had anything constructive, he could just have added it to the existing article) and B) since apparently, this is not the first time, giving the culprit an extended break (potentially of indeterminate duration...), because not heeding the concerns of others with one's edits and repeating the same disruptive silliness, months after being warned about it, is, as in point A), incompatible with participating in a collaborative project. (edit conflict) As for the above comment, and since people will surely ask, in addition to it confirming some of my points, given that Bruno had previously "permanently retired" (only to come back), I don't think it's reason to avoid imposing any sanctions. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Well, if what they want so much is to see me sanctioned myself, I request a permanent blocking of this account and the main account so that if I wanted to return again, I would not be able to do so. As Kendrick Lamar says "Whatever you doin ', just make it count" so I won't waste my time here again.BRVAFL (talk) 01:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Nobody's out there to get you sanctioned. If, however, you're not willing or not able to actually collaborate, and instead keep digging, then there's nothing further that needs to be said. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• @RandomCanadian and Rusted AutoParts: Special:Contributions/BRVAFL shows what pages BRVAFL has worked on; but which of those pages need history-merging or whatever? A look shows TÁR, Draft:Draft:TÁR, User:User:Bruno Rene Bargas/TÁR;:are these relevant? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Man I didn't know just how many pointless versions of this got made in this mess. All three of those are just the exact same thing. They should be merged and moved out of mainspace to reimplement the original version or just be deleted. Rusted AutoParts 08:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• This is ridiculous; Wikipedia is not a game to be won, and each one of these unattributed copies of another editor's work is a violation of Wikipedia's content license. Here's what's going to happen here:
  1. I'm removing the page from mainspace and create-protecting the location, and restoring both drafts to their original locations. All other versions will be deleted.
  2. For abuse of the permission, RustedAutoParts' pagemover rights are revoked. They may reapply at any time via the usual process, unless the proposal below passes.
  3. Neither of you is to move either of the drafts, nor make any more cut-and-paste copies of either one, nor create any new drafts for this film. If you do you will be reverted and blocked.

If anything remotely similar to this happens again, you will be blocked from editing. Here is a list of the pages/copies/redirects I've located already; most were created within the last 24 hours:

• TÁR (edit talk history links watch logs)
• Draft:TAR (film) (edit talk history links watch logs)
• Draft:Draft:TÁR (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Bruno Rene Vargas/TAR (film) (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Bruno Rene Vargas/TAR (upcoming film) (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:User:Bruno Rene Bargas/TÁR (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Rusted AutoParts/TÁR (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Rusted AutoParts/TAR (film) (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Rusted AutoParts TAR (film)/1 (edit talk history links watch logs)
• User:Rusted AutoParts TAR (film)/2 (edit talk history links watch logs)

• -- Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Scratch that proposal I wrote here earlier (I've removed it). On further investigation the disruption here is all Bruno Rene Vargas' doing, and it's plainly obvious that they're trying to steal credit for other users' contributions and settle old scores, and doing so in a way that is highly disruptive to prove a point. So I'm going to simply propose that Bruno Rene Vargas (using any account) is banned from moving any page, period. (Cut and paste moves are already forbidden) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Primefac and I were working on this at the same time and might have stepped on each other a bit, but I think we've got this down to the original two pages. The draft originally authored by RustedAutoParts now lives in the article namespace, while the version that Bruno Rene Vargas created some time later and repeatedly tried to hijack over the first version by cutting and pasting has been reassembled and lives at Draft:TAR (film). Several redirects from page moves are littered around the project but all the actual content is now in the history at one of those two pages. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:20, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: move ban

Request for closure

Note that this was moved into the archives without any action, so I'm asking for someone to cross all the Ts and dot the lower-case Js. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 14:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Well the user in question states they've permanently retired and hasn't edited since making that statement on the 17th May of this year. So this actually seems irrelevant right now. Canterbury Tail talk 15:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: They edit under two accounts:

Bruno Rene Vargas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

BRVAFL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

You're quite right, the former hasn't been used since May, but the latter has been used in the past few days. I wouldn't give too much in the way of good-faith via their "permanently retired" get-out clause. Lugnuts^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay that's even more concerning then, especially since it looks like the editing on both accounts overlap. Canterbury Tail talk 16:04, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Closed. I notified the known accounts and logged the restriction at WP:RESTRICT. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:56, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Of note; the editor has marked both accounts as retired, and posted what appears to be a final message under the second account with this diff. Regardless, the ban stands. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Hammers. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

User page as an attack page.

• Prunesqualer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted this on their user page [[390]]. It is an attack on fellow editors which has caused some consternation at [[391]].

Can it be removed please, and maybe the user warned?Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Good grief. There's a similar discussion just up the page. Just let it go. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Additional good grief. This is like the third user-policing rubbish I've seen in as many days. If you dont like something. DONT GO LOOKING AT IT. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

It's probably polemical and it's not nice, but I think this is not an ANI matter. I do not think it rises to the level of WP:G10. User has not responded to Slatersteven's (rather brusque) expression of concern. If this is not actioned here, I would suggest WP:MFD. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, please drop this and move on. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 21:37, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

There is no denying that there are indeed polemic concerns, that is true, but for real though just drop it. Celestina007 (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

TO be clear I raised it here as the talk page is not the right place (as was said) to raise it. But if you are happy to let it stand fine, I'll drop it.Slatersteven (talk) 09:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Username006 closing own page move discussion & general competence issues

51.6.138.48

51.6.138.48 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) had originally brought up DagosNavy at RFCN for having a potentially insulting username, which is fine, but much of the IP's behavior throughout the discussion has been very disruptive. Apart from bludgeoning the discussion, the IP:

• implied that all who interacted with DagosNavy without reporting their username were racists (and the choice of "as well" seems to be a personal attack by calling DagosNavy a racist)
• cried "personal attack" without substantiating the claims
• continued crying "personal attack" after I had requested them to substantiate their previous claim
• and again

I'm not going to pretend to be neutral to the discussion, but I think it's clear that 51.6.138.48's behavior has been nothing short of disruptive. - ZLEA _T\^C 13:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome to disagree with my arguments on that page; plenty of people have, and that is not a problem, obviously. When a user calls me "disgusting", "dumb" and "manipulative", though, that is not acceptable. I certainly do consider that a personal attack. Meanwhile, this noticeboard is supposed to be for "urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems". I don't think you had any valid reason to post about this here. What is your desired outcome, exactly? 51.6.138.48 (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Calling your actions "disgusting", "dumb", and "manipulative" is not the same thing as calling you those things. Those adjectives are describing actions, not a person. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The reason for my posting this here is your apparent failure or refusal to "get the point". - ZLEA _T\^C 15:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Reporting Disruptive user

InNeed95 (talk · contribs) Hi, this user was blocked by the admin @EdJohnston: for racist insults against Serb minority and againts other users[394]. He has since his founding violating 3RV rule, he constant provokes edit wars, vandalizing and POV Pushing. He is absurd disruptive and visibly reverses everything Serb(ian), and tries to Kosovarize/albanize articles that have nothing to do with it. He doesnt learn nothing with his previous block, he is a legit vandal. He spam wrong edits summary, etc. This user is a tyrant and stalker who goes out of his way to destroy any user who opposes his POV absurdity. His edits are unacceptable on wikipedia. He clearly is not here to contribute to wikipedia, gaming and impose his nationalistic bias. I request an administration to investigate this user's account of constant vandalism.

• • • Just look at this:
    • He removed an important church in kosovo (in UNESCO) in cristianity of kosovo just because its serbian orthodox. [395]. This is a absurd vandalism
    • [396] This user falsified the source, novak djokvic, a serbian tennis player, does not recognise kosovo, only the Kosovo and Metohia (An Serbian province under UN), and he removes without any explanation the Republika Srpska, a Serb Majority Federation in Bosnia, falsificating the source. This is high POV , Vandalism and violation of BLP policy
    • [397] The long disruptive and vandalism edits
    • [398] He revert me without any explanation, and he got reverted by another user.
    • [399] He revert me with a spam summary, and if he had read what he was reverting, he wouldn't revert me.
    • This user is hides the occupation of nazist albania renaming the name, in an article about a serb(ian) orthodox church[400], this is unnaceptable
    • [401] Another example of vandalism that resulted a block
    • [402] another POV
    • [403] Holy See doesn't recoginises the republic of kosovo(see Holy See–Serbia relations), and the user put POV and unsourced claim, literaly denyng Holy-See Position, a basis of article.
    • [404] this user blanks his talk page just to be unnoticed by the administrators.
    • [405] Here his block by admin.
    • [406]
    • [407]
    • [408]
    • [409]

He was notified about edit warring, but doesnt care [410]

Aquinasthomes1 (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Both users have been blocked for two weeks for edit warring. I'm quite frankly so tired of the ongoing conflict between these two editors. At this point, I would highly recommend a two-way interaction ban. Curbon7 (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Refactored, I guess... El_C 15:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Noting that I've now blocked the OP indef. See User_talk:Aquinasthomes1#Block_extended_indefinitely for details. El_C 17:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Editors adding Jo Johnson's honorofic title on Charlotte Johnson Wahl

User:Lydonnian has been edit warring to add Jo Johnson's honorific title "Baron Johnson of Marylebone" when MOS:HONORIFIC clearly prohibits using such titles in the article body except for certain exceptions, and certainly his mother's article doesn't qualify any of them. Lydonnian's addition of the title: [411], [412], [413].

And after Lydonnian stopped reverting me, User:Johnbod came to revert me instead on the same issue very shortly after for some reason. [414], [415].

And another fact is neither has cared to discuss the matter once and respect WP:STATUSQUO by not reverting after their additions are reverted, even after I contacted them.

I first asked Lydonnian to not revert again as it was against policy on honorifics and asked him to revert, warning him not to revert again as his actions wr against STATUSQUO. [416] As I thought that may have been too harsh on my part I asked him to not revert and discuss on the talk page while respecting WP:STATUSQUO [417]. But instead he didn't care and just reverted [418].

Reverting Lydonnian again I explained to him twice how MOS:HONORIFIC doesn't allow mentioning titles usually and why his edit doesn't meet the criteria for mentioning: [419], [420]. And in my comments to him on his talk page and summaries I didn't warn him, yet he ignored discussion.

Then Johnbod started reverting me, [421] and I asked him to not revert but discuss the issue on talk page while respecting STATUSQUO [422]. He reverted and told me not to edit war [423], despite reverting twice himself. And it doesn't require more than 3 reverts for it to be edit war. I don't intend to revert more, but Johnbod isn't innocent of what he accuses me of.

I requested Johnbod to self revert and stated that I'll complain of his behaviour [424]. All I got was a belittling and mocking reply in return [425].

Saying "Jo Johnson (now Baron Johnson of Marylebone)" sounds as if his name has been legally changed, unless you know about British titles. Not as a position and the title isn't the name of a position anyway.

Also just for reference of others, MOS:HONORIFIC particularly says In general, honorific prefixes—styles and honorifics in front of a name—in Wikipedia's own voice should not be included, but may be discussed in the article. In particular, this applies to:...

Except for the initial reference and infobox, do not add honorific titles to existing instances of a person's name where they are absent, because doing so implies that the existing version is incorrect (similar in spirit to the guideline on English spelling differences). Similarly, honorific titles should not be deleted when they are used throughout an article unless there is consensus.

Honorific titles used with forenames only (such as "Sir Elton", "Sir David", "Dame Judi") should be avoided unless this form is so heavily preferred in popular usage that the use of the surname alone would render the entire name unrecognizable.

Regardless of the content dispute, please ban these two editors from the article since they are not willing to engage at all. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Why is there no discussion about this at Talk:Charlotte Johnson Wahl? Schazjmd(talk) 15:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

They won't start one so I contacted hem directly. Because I find it's a better way to encourage discussion. And they won't discuss there as well. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Your whole premise is incorrect. In the first place, a title is not an honorific. Honorifics are not allowed in the body of articles, but titles are. See MOS:SURNAME, which allows for their use alongside personal names. British peers are commonly known by their titles in their daily lives and in the media, and there is nothing untoward about indicating a person's title at any given point, given that their title is usually used as part of their name. While there may be specific reasons in a given case to use or not use a title in the body of an article, there simply is no such prohibition on their use. RGloucester — ☎ 15:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure they are known by a title but people don't keep referring to them as such or refer to them as such for no reason. Also it's not a name but a title. We don't keep referring to them as Lord X of YZ or Lord X on articles outside lede or discussing their titles. And mentioning someone by their title as if it's a new name, on their mother's article, certainly does not fall into any exception. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You are very incorrect. See for example this recent BBC article about Lord Frost. As you will see, his title is used as a name, without any mention of his birth name. This is the customary usage in the UK. Once again, MOS:HONORIFIC does not apply, because a noble title is not an honorific. You must learn the difference. The relevant guidance is MOS:SURNAME, which allows for the use of titles in the body of articles, in line with customary usage. RGloucester — ☎ 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

First of all WP:NOTNEWS. Second of all it uses his name very rarely. Third I have this Guardian article saying his real name very clearly [426]. Fourth, look at Frost's Wikipedia article, Lord Frost isn't used much. Both these examples prove how wrong you are.

Lastly what we are discussing is not even Jo Johnson's article. But that of his mother Charlotte Johnson Wahl. There's no sensible reason for his peer title to be there. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 16:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Whether there is a sensible reason to use the title in that article can be discussed at the article talk page, as it is a content dispute. The only point I seek to clarify here is that you seem to have got it in your head that the use of titles in the article body is prohibited by the MoS. I am telling you as a third party that it is not, and that you might consider sitting down and having a discussion at the relevant talk page rather than attempting to get other editors sanctioned for a supposed 'violation' that does not actually exist. With this kind of attitude, I would not be surprised if you are in for a WP:BOOMERANG. RGloucester — ☎ 16:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Since the title was inserted by others it is they who must justify and not restore it after being reverted, as it wasn't there for a long time. WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD triumphs over thinking the title belongs there. You or anyone feeling it's correct is not a reason to break it. I'm ready to start a discussion and even contacted the people personally since they don't want to discuss even after being asked. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 16:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

If you're ready to start a discussion, please do so, at Talk:Charlotte Johnson Wahl. The place to start a discussion is on the article talk page, not on individual user talk pages, where other interested editors are unlikely to see it. I'm not sure why you're waiting for the other person(s) to open a talk page discussion when you yourself are free to do so. Also, attempting to communicate via edit summaries only leads to edit wars, so that's a bad way to try to communicate. — Diannaa (talk) 17:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I apologise if that is what it seems so, I thought it would be better to communicate directly since it would get a response. But it hasn't. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Moved from my talk page

• • In case anybody asks, given the above, I've gone ahead and rollbacked the massive and repetitive "replaced by"... OR. That's clearly ROLLBACKUSE no. 5; in case anybody objects. There might be a few false positives (such as some edits which merely altered links to go from one redirect to another - i.e. WP:NOTBROKEN, so not initially constructive edits but no real reason to waste time on them): it's of course much faster not to have to go through all of them; but in any case, if I've done anything silly, the ton of bricks can be shipped right to my talk page. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Icecreamland and disruptive unsourced editing

• Icecreamland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Viacom18 (edit talk history links watch logs)

I'm starting to find this user's habit of edit warring when their edits are contested highly disruptive. All edits do not contain a source, and when contested the user just says "check your sources" citing sources directly connected to the subject rather than third-party sources. None of their sources are cited directly, and the user does not link directly to the source. Now they've gone as far as accusing me of making destructive edits to the article in question. Their entire history is disruptive in nature, deleted edits included following an RFD on Colors Telugu. I'm close to assuming this has gone into WP:NOTHERE territory. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I completely disagree with these allegations.

As I was new to wikipedia editing, I was unaware that I was supposed link sources which support my edit.

Moreover, I do not understand in what way my editing is disruptive.

I believe that Jalen Folf must respect a fellow editor's opinion regarding his edit, and try to rectify what's wrong.

Icecreamland (talk) 06:29, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Icecreamland: There is a formidable collection of warning messages from editors on your talk page since you started editing on 25 August. You started out with edits like this where you edited the headings of a table. It does not seem like the kind of edit that a new editor would do. Did you have an account before this one?-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1: No, this is my first account. As that was my first edit I had no idea what I was doing, I accidentally deleted the table and didn't know what to do. So, I thought I had to create the whole table again. But now I'm getting the hang of it. Moreover, I would like to know how my editing is disruptive. Even in my first edit I didn't change anything, I just ended up creating the whole table again.

Here are some sources that prove the existence of Colors Telugu.

Colors Telugu

Colors Telugu

Colors Telugu

Icecreamland (talk) 08:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that you cannot understand why any of the following edits to the table in the article on Viacom18 were regarded as disruptive and were reverted by other editors?

1. [433] this was reverted by ClueBot NG
2. [434] this was reverted by AdhiOK
3. [435] eventually reverted by JalenFolf

Different people kept changing the article back to how it was before you edited and kept posting messages on your talk page. That told you nothing? It never occurred to you that they all thought you were messing up the table formatting? Competence is required! I am not sure which is worse: that you had no idea that your edits were disruptive and so kept on making them? Or, that you did not care that your edits were disruptive? -- Toddy1 (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1: They reverted my edits, but i was never told for what reason they were reverted. They never mentioned what was disruptive in my edit, they only mentioned that it was disruptive. Moreover i didn't even know what a talk page was for the first few days, so i never checked them. Also, kindly check the sources which i attached.

Editing is new to me, so please try to encourage me rather than calling me and my editing WORSE. No offense Icecreamland (talk) 10:11, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the issue of Colors Telugu - it is hard for other users to understand unless they read: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 4#Colors Telugu.
@Icecreamland: It would really help a lot if you would discuss your points on article talk pages. Try to explain (a) what changes you want to make, and (b) why you think other users should accept them. Read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. You need to be willing to listen to other editor's concerns. Make an effort to understand them. If there are wikilinks to policies, etc. in their posts, click on the wikilinks and read the policy and try to see how it is relevant to what they are saying. Also use edit summaries, and do not mark your edits as "minor edits" - you do not have the competence to know when your edit is a minor edit.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

If someone reverts an edit, and you do not understand why – post a message on the article talk page asking why. Do not repeat the edit until you understand why it was reverted.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1: I wanted to discuss regarding Colors Telugu but by the time i got to know, the discussion was closed. I requested them to reopen the discussion but they didn't. I asked Jalen Folf why he reverted my edits, he said that when a fellow editor reverts your edits you must try to rectify what's wrong with the article, but he never mentioned the reason in particular. Also AdhiOK never posted anything on my talk page and Cluebot is a robot. So, it was only Jalen Folf who kept reverting my edits. Icecreamland (talk) 11:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icecreamland (talk • contribs) 10:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Your first edits were on 25 August, and your contribution history shows that you were posting on both article talk pages and user talk pages on 27 August. Your responses here are in fluent English. So if you had wanted to, you could have asked why your edits were disruptive.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1: As i said, i asked Jalen Folf in what way they were disruptive, but he didn't mention what exactly was disruptive in my edit. Icecreamland (talk) 11:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Icecreamland, where and when did you ask Jalen Folf about that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Martinevans123 and Toddy1, I did not have Icecreamland's Talk page on my watchlist so I was unable to see the messages until it was too late. Beginning around the closure of the Colors Telugu RFD, I had removed the TV Channels section in the article as the entire section had no sources describing the Colors channels' connections to the collective. There were a few things disruptive here: the first being that every time the section was restored, every editor, including Icecreamland, restored without the requested sources, hence why the page was protected in the first place. Second, and this includes the most recent attempt, was that every time Icecreamland would restore, they would also remove the protection template as well (a sign of manual revision reversion). I don't know if they were aware they were doing this while trying to restore.

As participants of the recent RFD that contributed to the redirect's deletion, I will also courtesy ping Susmuffin and Jay to this discussion. Jalen Folf(talk) 14:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Sources are needed to support our articles. This is what separates us from the massive sea of blogs that seems to stretch on forever. Since no reliable source has confirmed that Colors Telugu exists, this material should not be restored to the article. Furthermore, it is clear that the editor in question is aware of our policies. Their continued restoration of uncited material is disruptive. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 15:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Susmuffin: Are these sources not reliable enough to confirm the existence of Colors Telugu.

Colors Telugu

Colors Telugu

Colors Telugu

Icecreamland (talk) 05:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Looking at the edits it appears to me that we are, in fact, dealing with a new editor that has jumped into editing with both feet, so to speak, and little knowledge or understanding of how deep it is. I want to caution my esteemed and experienced fellow editors to not bite them too hard while keeping them accountable for edits that may appear disruptive. I know it's frustrating. I know it's aggravating but a little kindness goes a long way. Icecreamland, please take some time and review others editing. Visit the Teahouse and see if questions you may have are already answered. Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions! I am sure there are some here who would let you see how they edit and it could offer you some guidance. Proper editing is one of the hardest and most important things you could do here next to article creation itself. Please take the time to learn the nuances and study all you can on editing here before continuing to do so. We are to assume good faith and I am doing that. If your intentions are to be disruptive you wont be here long. If it is just that you are new then please take the advice given. --ARoseWolf 15:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Colors Telugu (an RfD I participated in): I do not see much of a problem on this page where the additions and reverts happened across 4 days. Icecreamland did ask on his talk page on why his edits were being considered disruptive, but did not get a response from either Code Pending or JalenFolf (for which he has provided an explanation). After Liz suggested him to stop the following day and take his concerns to the teahouse, he did stop and asked for help at the teahouse which was promptly answered.

Viacom18: From Aug 25 to Sep 13, none of the editors (except for ClueBot!) who reverted Icecreamland, cautioned him on his talk page regarding his edits at Viacom18. Fault also lies with Icecreamland, who despite commenting on Talk:Viacom18#Colors Telugu initially, failed to acknowledge or question Jalen Folf's suggestion made there. Icecreamland enquired on the talk page of 101.109.205.14 on August 27, so he was familiar with talk pages from then on, but did not attempt to talk to other editors. I understand the teahouse response wasn't very helpful, but he could have clicked on disruptive editing link and tried to read this pretty simple and straightforward guideline. Jalen Folf is justified in listing the incident here because of Icecreamland's tone of reverse accusing Jalen Folf of destructive editing. As ARoseWolf has said above, hope Icecreamland takes time and starts with smaller edits, and reviews others. Jay^(Talk) 20:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Jay, thank you for the added context. I think this is just another example that everyone can learn and grow from. I gain insight almost every time I read these discussions. --ARoseWolf 21:13, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to all my fellow editors for believing in me and giving me a second chance. Icecreamland (talk) 05:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Icecreamland, You're very welcome. Good luck editing, and please consider the advice we have given you. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

JalenFolf, I believe the sources which i attached confirm the existence of Colors Telugu. So, why am i not allowed to create a page for it. Icecreamland (talk) 06:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Icecreamland You're actually allowed to make the page for it. I gave you this advice already over at Rosguill's Talk page. Jalen Folf (talk) 06:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Suggest this thread is now closed by any admin. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• The user recreated Colors Telugu, which was tagged for deletion as an A7. I deleted the article. The user created Colors telugu, which itself has been created before, and the user came to my Talk page and told me to stop deleting "my page". I deleted it and blocked the user as WP:NOTHERE, which is a bit of an understatement.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oh dear. Well I guess it can be closed now. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Community ban request for Maile66

Uhhh ... I just now got back online and saw this, and it seems this user was a sock and now blocked. One of those random mysteries in the universe, I guess. Any admin's logs are going to be confusing to non admins who've never seen user logs before. — Maile (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Somebody should give Maile66 a barnstar for their deciphering abilities. I'm impressed, because I'm still confused. – ².O.^Boxing 18:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Squared.Circle.Boxing: assuming you're not joking about being confused ... every editor on Wikipedia has a running page on their edits. On my skin (and perhaps others), you go to the top of a user page and see "Contributions". Click on that, and you see a running list. If you click on the option "logs" you can see more details, in an admin's case, it would be every admin edit. Lots of red links if pages are moved or deleted, with explanatory edit summaries. But if you're just a drive-by sock with no clue what an admin role is, it's possible to think, "Oh, my gawd ... this admin has gone nuts". Or something like that. This is my best guess at what the above sock was alarmed about. — Maile (talk) 00:29, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The sock-master, wasn't very creative with sock names. GoodDay (talk) 18:14, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

On another site, we proposed that all socks and spammers should be compelled to use closely similar (preferably serialised) usernames. Sadly, management wouldn't listen. Narky Blert (talk) 22:24, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Threats to "put a police case against those"

Special:Contributions/2600:8801:A002:3700:0:0:0:0/64

• 2600:8801:A002:3700:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I noticed this IP range persistently adding unsourced information to random baseball articles, mostly pertaining to the San Diego Padres, whose local market the range is Geolocated. They continue to do this despite multiple warnings sent to various IP talk pages in the range. This recent string of edits started with disruptive removal of redirects to Geometry Dash. Their continued unsourced editing pattern is starting to turn disruptive and may need administrator action. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Since this report was made, the user has ignored the notice on the Talk page of the last known IP used and proceeds to add unsourced material to articles, with the latest attempt happening at Bloons Tower Defense. Talk page messages will not work on a range as messages will not be sent to the user if their IP changes again. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Mysterious tagging by anonymous user as I was noting a problem in an article

When I accessed the page for "Mark Hertling" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hertling)

I saw a comment relating to a recently revealed action by a third party, General Mark Milley:

"...analyst for CNN, in which role he gave General Mark Milley "high marks" for treasonously and illegally contacting a Chinese general to assure him that General Milley would provide advance warning of any attack against China."

Some strange entry was noted at the time I made my report, supposedly from this address:

"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/107.133.140.198"

A check at Virus Total's scan page indicated a possible malicious url.

I assure you l did not provide the questionable content, and am concerned it might be associated with me. That is not the case, it was on the page when I first accessed it.

Please check on your end in case some kind of malware or hacking is involved. Sparkyland3r5 (talk) 12:38, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't look like that to me at all. The edit was from an IP, which I reverted as well. You are fine, no need to worry about your account or hacking or anything such as that. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:49, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Refusal to drop the stick by Manwë986 - second time