위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1073

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알림판 아카이브
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기타 링크

사용자 Notuck HRUKING 및 AE 시민성 경고 위반

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.


노탁은 2020년 12월 계정을 개설한 비교적 새로운 편집자다.그들은 이전 계정인 스판고93으로 몇 가지 수정을 했다.짧은 시간 안에 노턱은 전쟁 편집 및 일반적으로 대립되는 행동 문제와 관련된 예의범절 문제를 가지고 있다는 것이 명백해졌다.이를 위해 나는 3월 25일 (3개월 전)[1]에 기록적인 경고를 초래한 Notecuck의 행동과 관련된 AE를 개설했다.노탁은 이후 3개월 동안 나의 편집과 나 자신에 대해 호탕하고 비굴한 분명한 패턴을 보여 왔다.

호칭: 위키백과에서 호칭(또는 "위키호킹")은 한 명 이상의 편집자 한 명으로, 그들이 기여하는 여러 페이지 또는 주제에 대한 토론에 참여하여 반복적으로 그들의 작업에 맞서거나 억제하는 것이다. 이것은 다른 편집자에게 짜증, 짜증 또는 고통을 유발하는 명백한 목적을 가지고 있다. 호킹은 보통 위키피디아에서 표적을 이리저리 따라다닌다.

노트턱은 지난 3월 25일 미개하고 문제가 있는 AP2 행동과 관련한 경고를 받은 이후 이 글 작성 당시 약 185건의 편집을 했다.50%가 넘는 사람들 중 어느 정도는 내 능력이었다.

  • PLUMIC [[2] 위반 시 불만 사항 목록에 40개의 샌드박스 항목.반복적인 요청 후에, 그들은 의심스러운 편집 요약[[3]으로 목록을 비웠다.삭제 후 그들은 계속해서 목록에 추가되었다.
편집: 이 불만 사항 목록은 2월 24일에 시작되었다.Polemic은 불만사항 목록은 분쟁 해결을 위해 적시에 사용하는 경우에만 허용된다고 언급한다.스프링키(토크) 15:15, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
  • 나를 따라 3RRN까지 갔는데 그들은 내 신빙성을 공격하지 않았다.[[5]].
  • 다른 편집자에게 연락하여 나를 반대하는 캠페인 [[6], [7], [8], [9], [10].
  • 내가 참여한 후 이전에 참여하지 않았던 주제 영역과 내 편집/논쟁에 반대하는 방식으로 참여:
    • Odal 룬 RfC [[11]
    • Candace Oristes, 진행 중인 토크 페이지 토론에 참여하지 않고 내 편집을 되돌림으로써 분쟁 자료[12] 복원[13].
    • 나는 3월 31일 월스트리트 저널 페이지를 편집했다. 노트룩은 4월 1일 페이지를 찾는다[14]
    • Tucker Carlson, 관련 토크 페이지 토론에 참여하지 않음에도 불구하고 논쟁의 여지가 있는 내용을 삭제한 [15]를 되돌리는 중.
  • 기사 토크 페이지 주석/편집보다 편집자로서 나에게 초점을 맞춘 요약 편집
    • 오늘 아침 [16], "솔직히 위키백과에 익숙해지기를 부탁한다.하운드WP:FILIBU스터 그리고 왜 당신이 이 극히 사소한 편집에 계속 도전하는지 스스로에게 물어봐라.", [17] 그리고 그들은 내가 이중 잣대를 가지고 있다고 비난하고 [18] "존경하게도, 당신은 WP를 이해하는데 상당한 어려움을 겪었다.이 페이지를 포함한 과거의 FRUY 및 기타 정책"
  • 위와 같이 논란이 된 편집을 복원할 때 페이지의 1RR 제한 위반. 첫 번째 [[19] 두 번째 [[20]
  • 대화 페이지의 분쟁 개인화 - 예의에 관한 AE 경고 위반:
    • [[21]], "스프링키측에서는 동의하지 않는 출처에 대해 가장 비타협적으로 높은 기준을 고집하고 있다는 점에서 극히 우려되는 이중 잣대다. 만약 스프링이가 출처를 평가하기 어렵다고 판단되면 옆으로 비켜서서많이 듣는 것이 가장 좋을지도 모른다."
    • [[22]], "스프링키, 당신은 현재 WP직면해 있다.가식적인 편집에 근거한 AE 청력. 만약 여러분이 편집 정책을 따르는 데 어려움을 겪고 있다면, 여러분이 모든 답을 안다고 가정하기 보다는 다른 사람들의 말에 더 귀를 기울이는 것이 최선일 것이다.

나는 이 문제가 HRUKING 문제라는 것을 (AE 관리자 페이지 [[23] 닫기], Notecook 페이지 [[24])를 성공시키지 못하고 중단해야 한다는 것을 Noteck에 반복해서 경고해 왔다.나는 그들이 최근 건축과 같은 주제에 대한 편집에 집중했을 때 희망적이었다. 그것은 내가 혼자 남게 된다는 것을 의미할 것이다.지난 겨울 노턱과 내가 가장 일찍 접촉한 것에서 나는 편집상의 의견 불일치가 개인적인 의견 불일치가 아니라는 것을 분명히 하려고 노력했다.분쟁을 개인화하는 것은 Notecucks AE에서 논의된 문제들 중 하나였다.상황을 예의 바르게 유지하려고 노력했음에도 불구하고 그들이 이전의 AE 경고를 이해하지 못했다는 것은 명백하다.나는 AP2 주제 금지 또는 1방향 상호 작용 금지 중 하나를 요구하고 있다. (나는 그들과도 자발적으로 상호 작용하는 것을 피하겠다.)스프링키(토크) 13:38, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)

  • 미국 정치로부터의 지지 토픽 금지, 대략적으로 해석된다.피비린내 나는 화제는 새로운 전사들이 전장에 합류하도록 격려하지 않고 있는 그대로의 영구적인 전쟁터로 충분하다.——13:52, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
  • 코멘트 AE 경고 위반이라면 AE에도 있어야 하지 않을까?검은 연 (토크) 13:58, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC)
나는 Springee의 편집에만 집중하지 않았다: 나의 기여 페이지를 보라.[25] 나의 최근 새 페이지에는 벨로루시의 건축, 랜드 캡틴(러시아 제국), 웰러맨텍사스 혁명에 관한 광범위한 연구, We Will Always Love You 등등이 포함되어 있다.정치에 대한 공동의 관심으로 볼 때 우리는 앤디 응고, 더글라스 머레이, 그리고 다른 사람들을 편집했다.나는 스프링이가 보수정치에 대해 반복적으로 민-POV를 강요하는 사람이라는 것을 주장한다(그들의 거의 모든 편집이 관련되어 있다) 변함없이 불변하는 자료를 거부한다.Springee는 한 달 만 해도 Daily Caller의 자료를 Andy Ngo 페이지에 추가한 Arb com 이전이었다.[26] "스프링키"는 WP에서 98회 히트를 친다.기록 보관소.그곳의 많은 편집자들은 나의 우려를 공유하며, 스프링키는 이전에 미국 정치 분야에서 제재를 받은 적이 있다.[27] 나는 정말로 WP를 준비했다.지난 2월 스프링키가 나에게 했던 것처럼 샌드박스에 담긴 고소장이었다.My "double standard" comment came from Springee's persistence in wanting Fox's Ken LaCorte's "LaCorte News",[29] which dlthewave observed was "obviously terrible", added to Andy Ngo in April[30]{{{1}}} while rejecting material from Rolling Stone and Jacobin this month[31] (plus BuzzFeed News[32] and Bellingcat.[33] 스프링키는 종종 소송에 휘말려 WP를 만든다.4월 자레드 쿠슈너 페이지에서 1RR의 잘못된 해석을 근거로 한 불만.[34] 나는 이것을 WP로 본다.부메랑. Springee는 내 편집에 도전하는 것에 꽤 집착하고 있고 내 토크 페이지에 65개의 언급이 있어.나는 Springee가 Andy Ngo에 대한 나의 짧은 문장에 계속 도전하고 있는 것이 WP라고 주장한다.필리버스터.[35] 슬레이브가 Dlthewave[36]로 키워낸 1RR 스프링이는 사소한 것으로, Dlthewave 노트와 나는 어쨌든 지금은 되돌아갔다.[37] 스프링이는 내가 조울증-2에 민감하고 괴로워하며 매니큐어 단계에서 화를 내고 좌절하기 쉽다는 것을 안다.완전한 공개: 어제 나는 관련 없는 WP를 출범시켰다.다른 곳에서 매우 공격적이고 개인적인 모욕을 받은 후의 조치[38] 필요 시 세부 사항을 반복할 수 있다.나는 Springee가 몇 시간 후에 이 불평을 제기하기로 결정한 것에 의문을 제기하고 다른 조치가 Noteck (대화) 14:29, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC)로 결론 날 때까지 기다리지 않는다.
  • 노트룩, 문자 변경 시 표시하십시오.위의 답변에 큰 변화를 주셨습니다.아래에 언급했듯이, 원본 텍스트가 추가/제거된 항목으로 변경되었기 때문에 더 이상 이해할 수 없는 답변이 될 수 있다.스프링키(토크) 23:30, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
편집자들이 그들의 온위키 행동을 설명하기 위해 정신 건강 상태를 인용하는 것은 나를 불편하게 한다.많은 사람들이 많은 일로 고통 받고 있다; 이곳에 참가할 만큼 건강하지 않은 사람은 즉시 로그오프해야 한다.레비비치 14:57, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
노트룩, 최근 나에 대한 AE는 기록적인 경고가 아닌 더 주의하라는 코멘트로만 종결되었다.[[39] 스프링키 (대화) 15:15, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC) 편집:Notecuck은 위 문장의 일련의 편집의 일환으로 기록된 경고 클레임을 삭제했다[40].새롭게 추가된 "대학 수정"[41]의 주장은 사실을 제대로 파악하지 못한 예다.가 편집하기 직전에 다른 편집자가 추가했다.Springee (대화) 15:53, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC)
Notecuck은 편향성 등의 주장으로 옆길로 새려고 하지만 그들이 분쟁을 개인화한다는 것은 명백하다(AE에서 발견되었고 최근의 사례들은 여기서 볼 수 있다).편집이 뒷받침되지 않았다고 주장하기 보다는, 그들은 사서의 코난 사서가 개인적인 의견/바이어[43]에 따라 행동했다고 비난하고 나서 그들의 사용자 페이지[44]에 경고를 계속한다.AE가 종료된 다음 달(3월 24일 ~ 4월 24일)에 Notecook은 39개의 편집을 했다.5명을 제외하고는 모두 나와 관련이 있었다.그것에는 그렇지 않으면 그들이 관여하지 않은 페이지의 편집 내용을 되돌리고, PROGMIC 목록에 추가하며, 다른 편집자를 모집하여 나에게 대항하는 것을 포함했다.이러한 고정관념은 누그러졌지만, 그들은 여전히 모든 분쟁을 개인적인 것으로 취급하고 있어, 그들이 자신들이 생물학적 존재라는 것을 알고 그들에게 그것을 이용하려고 한다고 나를 비난할 정도였다.편집자들이 그들과 의견이 다를 때 노턱은 그것을 개인적으로 받아들이고 있는 것이 분명하다.이것이 AE의 핵심 문제이며 경고를 초래한 결과 중 하나이다.난 이걸 멈춰달라고 부탁하는 거야Springee (대화) 12:09, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 코멘트 나는 이 ANN을 참조하는 HiLo48의 토크 페이지에 숨어있기 때문에 여기에 오게 되었다.나는 스프링이가 일하는 것을 본 적이 있는데 그들은 위에서 설명한 것과 같은 거친 행동에 직면할 때에도 높은 길에 머물러 있는 조심스럽고 예의 바른 편집자다.나는 Springee에 대해 잘못된 그림을 그리려고 노력하는 위의 구조를 바로 그것과 반대되는 것을 발견한다.진심으로, 노스8000 (대화) 20:20, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC)
노스8000, 특히 어떤 점이 잘못되었다고 생각하십니까?dlthewave view 21:20, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
기본적으로 모든 특징과 모든 차이점이 보여주는 것에 대해 주장한다.북8000(대화) 12시 12분, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC)
  • 코멘트 이 불만들 중 몇몇은 정말로 정밀 조사를 견디지 못하며, 그 차이점들이 모두 스프링키가 말하는 것을 보여주지는 못한다.나는 사람들이 의견을 형성하기 전에 문맥상 차이를 자세히 살펴보도록 촉구하고 싶다.노턱은 논란의 여지가 있는 미국 정치 기사에서 NPOV를 유지하는 데 좋은 일을 하고 있으며 나는 그 주제에서 생산적인 편집자를 잃고 싶지 않다.그들은 Springee의 편집에 대해 수많은 타당한 우려를 제기하고 있다(아마 더 나은 시간과 장소를 찾을 수 있을 것이다), 그리고 이 불평은 "퍼스트 무버 우위"를 얻고 그들이 동의하지 않는 편집자를 그들의 증거를 제시할 기회를 갖기 전에 침묵시키려는 상당히 슬픈 시도로 이해된다.
    • 샌드박스 우려에 대해 노턱은 WP에 의해 명시적으로 허용되는 Arbcom 사건 등에 대한 증거를 수집하고 있는 것으로 보인다.PURMIC: 사용자 하위 페이지에 사실 증거(디프)를 적시에 사용할 있다면, 분쟁 해결 과정을 준비하는 등의 목적을 위해 편집하는 것이 허용된다.물론, "시간적 매너"의 정의는 논란의 여지가 있지만, Springee가 제시한 두 번째 차이점은 3일 내내 일어났으며, 이것은 확실히 경계선 안에 있다.나는 또한 Springee가 3개월 동안 비슷한 종류의 디프 컬렉션을 그들의 샌드박스에 유지했고 그 기간 동안 그들은 반복적으로 Noteuck에게 그들의 디프 컬렉션을 제거하라고 요구했다[45][46].똥 묻은 개가 겨 묻은 개 나무라고?나는 또한 이 편집 요약이 어떻게 안전한 장소에 놓였는지 빈칸을 그리고 있다. 이는 우려가 사라졌다는 것을 의미하지 않는다.ANI 절차는 결국 요구될 수 있다.)는 어떤 식으로든 "질문할 수 있는" 것이다.
    • 터커 칼슨, 월스트리트저널, 캔디스 오웬스, 오달(rune) 등이 최근 뉴스에 나와 미국 정치에 관여하는 편집자들의 뜨거운 화제거리인 노턱과 스프링은 이런 기사들을 거의 동시에 접한 유일한 편집자들과는 거리가 멀다.미안하지만, 당신이 "소란함, 짜증 또는 괴로움"을 일으키려고 하는 것과 같은 RfC[47]에 반응하는 사람이 있다고 생각하려면 꽤 음모론자이거나 특히 피부가 얇아야 할 것이다.
    • 1RR의 우려는 아무것도 아니다.스프링이는 나의 토크 페이지[48]에 우려를 제기하였다(사람들이 그런 행동을 했을 때 나는 그들이 그것을 좋아하지 않는다고 생각하였는가?)와 노탁은 즉각적이고 정중하게 자기반복했다[49].dlthewave view 21:15, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
      • Dlthewave, 당신의 몇몇 요점은 부정확하거나 오해의 소지가 있다.사실 나는 2월에 AE를 제출하기 전에 샌드박스 목록을 작성했다.나는 1월 29일에 리스트를 작성했고, 2월 22일에 AE를 제출했어, 그래서 한 달만이야.나는 두 달 동안 샌드박스를 치우지 않았지만 AE는 한 달 동안 열려 있었다는 것을 인정하겠다.1RR 위반을 언급하셨습니다.네가 생각하는 1RR을 내 입장에서 어떻게 처리했는지 흥미로웠어.제재를 받으러 갔었잖아[[50] 왜 노턱의 명백한 위반에 대해 그렇게 공격적이지 않았는가?노턱이 다양한 AP2 기사를 편집하고 있다면, 유사한 기사에 대한 당신의 관심이 더 설득력 있게 느껴질 것이다.하지만 오달(rune)과 같은 기사들은 교통량이 적은데, 노턱은 내가 편집하지 않는 AP2 기사들을 많이 싣지 못하고 있다.이것은 또한 그들이 건축에 대해 편집하기로 결정하기 전에 이루어졌고 그들의 편집의 대부분은 나에게 집중되었다(AE 폐쇄 이후 거의 80%가 그 때).스프링키(토크) 23:10, 2021년 6월 25일(UTC)
오, 제발, 오달이가 무슨 역겨운 물건인 척 하지 마.CPAC 사건 이후 잘 넘어지고 편집이 많이 된 거 아시죠, 그리고 누군가가 당신이 했던 것과 같은 RFC에 반응했기 때문에 당신은 녹초가 되고 있는 겁니다.
앞서 언급했듯이, 이것은 내가 노트턱에서 본 첫 번째 1RR 위반인데, 그들은 그것이 지적되자 재빨리 사과하고 자기반복했다.반면에 너와 나는 무엇이 되돌아가야 하는지에 대해 몇 번이나 의견 충돌이 있어, 나는 관리자에게 조언을 구했고 그것은 마치 우리 셋이 그것에 대해 생산적인 토론을 하는 것처럼 보였다.다르게 보이나?dlthewaveview 01:24, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC)
제발 예의 바르게 해 줘.During the first month after the AE closed (24 Mar-24 Apr) Noteduck edited 7 article/talk pages that could be seen as AP related (Dennis Prager, WSJ, CPAC, Odal rune, Candace Owens, Douglas Murray, Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, 2020 US presidential election, A People's History of the US).그 중 나는 지난 두 번과 아무런 관련이 없다.Notecuck은 WSJ, CPAC, Odal, Owens, Carlson과 관련이 없었지만, 나의 RfC 논평을 반대하거나 편집 내용을 되돌리고 있었다.그들은 NGO, Prager, Murray와 사전에 관계를 맺고 있었다.만약 그들의 논평과 편집이 나와 관련이 없다면, 이것은 단지 같은 주제를 다루는 것으로 보는 것이 더 쉬울 것이다.
노턱의 첫 번째 편집 전쟁이었나?편집 전쟁도 AE의 관심사 중 하나였다.내가 선을 넘었다고 느꼈을 때 왜 재빨리 경고했는지는 분명히 밝히지 않았지만 넌 심지어 그들이 선을 넘었다는 것을 노탁에게 알리지도 않았잖아.당신이 관리자에게 물었을 때, 당신이 제재를 받고 있다는 것이 분명했고, 당신이 아직 지지하지 않은 내 부분에 대해 1RR 위반을 고발했다.스프링키(토크) 02:09, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
샌드박스로 돌아가기:만약 우리가 당신에게 그 의심의 혜택을 준다면, 당신은 한 달 동안 불평 목록을 가지고 있었고 당신은 3일 동안 비슷한 목록을 보관하는 것이 PERGICIC을 위반한다고 주장하고 있다.이것은 정말 이중잣대처럼 느껴지는 것 중 하나이다.노턱이 그런 짓을 하면 으르렁거리고 미개하지만, 우리는 당신의 비슷한 행동에 대해 꽤 많은 여유를 줄 것으로 예상된다.네가 그렇게 걱정한다면, 네 샌드박스를 깨끗하게 유지하는 것을 기억했으면 좋겠어.dlthewave view 12:07, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC)
그 불만 사항 목록은 Notecook에 의해 2월 10일에 시작되었다.거의 7월인데 아직도 더해지고 있다.당신은 5개월이 시기적절하다고 생각하십니까?블랭킹된 콘텐츠를 다시 가져올 수 있다는 점(아래에 "블랭킹된" 콘텐츠가 추가됨)과 새 항목을 계속 추가한다면 블랭킹은 거의 의미가 없다.너는 내가 한 일이 비슷하다고 하니 비교해 보자.AE에서 사용된 한 달 미만의 특정 목록은 AE가 종료된 지 한 달 후 샌드박스를 청소할 때까지 다시 사용되지 않는다.명백한 오류가 많은 5개월 연속 리스트를 포함하여, 일부분은 공백이 되었지만 리스트가 PERGIC을 위반했다는 여러 불평이 있은 후 쉽게 복구할 수 있었다.몇 번의 폴믹 경고 후에도 누적은 계속되었다.노턱이 내가 그들에게 잘못을 저질렀다고 결정한 게 분명해.이를 위해 그들은 리스트를 만들고, 다른 기사에 대한 불만을 계속하기 위해 나를 따라다니며, 다른 편집자들에게 지원을 요청하려고 애쓰고 있다(당신 자신이 포함됨). 그리고 그들 자신의 행동을 반성하기보다는 "민간 POV 푸셔"를 주장하려고 애쓰지 않는다.만약 그들이 논쟁을 그만 개인화하는 것에 동의한다면, MfD는 리스트를 만들고, 나를 혼자 내버려 두는 것이 괜찮을 것이고, 우리는 이것을 즉시 끝낼 수 있을 것이다.스프링키(토크) 12:31, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC)
여유에 대한 요점에 대해: 스프링키는 10년 이상 편집 활동을 해왔고, 나보다 훨씬 더, 훨씬 더, 훨씬 더 많은 편집 경험을 가지고 있다.나는 2020년 12월부터 정기적으로 편집만 하고 있을 뿐이다(2020년 초 옛 계정에서 편집한 것이 몇 가지 있다)."스프링키"는 WP에서 98회 히트를 친다.기록 보관소; "Noteduck"은 5개를 얻는다.스프링키는 지금쯤 그 규칙들을 아주 잘 알고 있을 것이다-그리고 사실, 스프링이는 그들의 관점에 맞을 때 그 규칙들을 알고 있는 것처럼 보인다.스프링이가 편집 정책에 대한 무지를 주장하거나, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC) 12시 42분, 노트룩(대화) 특혜가 예상될 이유가 없다.
Springee, 당신이 요청하면 내가 당신에게 언급된 내 샌드박스를 지울 수 있어. 그리고 정책 위반으로 인식된 모든 것들을 지금 지울 수 있어.필요하면 다른 곳에 보관할 수 있다.하지만, 당신은 내가 다시는 당신에 관련된 어떤 종류의 의혹들을 제기하기 위해 내 샌드박스를 사용하지 말 것을 요구하는 것 같은데, 나는 이것이 꽤 불합리하다고 생각한다.포켓틀 상황).반복적으로 제기되는 HOUNDING의 주장에 대해서는, 내가 위반하고 있다고 느끼는 정책의 구체적인 부분을 더 많이 참조해, 내 토크 페이지[51]의 "스프링"에 대한 65개의 히트곡들은 당신이 정확히 비수리적이라는 것을 암시하지 않는다.WP별:HOUND:.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu 세리프",serif, 색:#008560, 인용문:편집자의 역사도}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:상속을 하다;font-style: 기울임 꼴}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{인용:")"""\""}Correct 사용( 하지만에 국한되지 않는다)를 고치고 모호하지 않은 오류나 위키 백과 정책의 위반 또는 수정 관련된 프로를 포함한다.여러 기사에 Blems. 사실, 그러한 관행은 최근 변경 순찰과 위키프로젝트 스팸 모두에 권장된다.나는 이것이 내가 해왔던 것이라고 믿는다.당신은 최근에 나를 ping하고 Andy ngo 페이지에서 편집한 내용을 되돌렸다.[52] 내가 훨씬 더 즐기는 다른 위키백과 프로젝트에서 나를 끌어냈다: 벨로루시텍사스 혁명의 Noteduck (대화) 12:54, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC) 참조
그리고 또 다시 부정확한 말.토크 페이지[53] 토론에 따라 인용문을 통합하고 있었다.그 일환으로 나는 OR[54]을 포함한 의심스러운 주장에 주목했다.[[55]. 5월 기사에 마지막으로 관여했음에도 불구하고, 당신은 재빨리 내가 수술실을 없앴다[56]불과 1시간 후에[58] 이 문제를 논의하기 위해 토크 페이지로 갔기 때문에 너에게 ping을 했다.나는 네가 나와 함께 한 것이 아니라 너의 복원력을 되돌려 놓은 볼터1과 함께 한 것에 주목하겠다.당신은 내가 당신의 편집본을 목표로 했다고 주장하지만, 나는 당신이 원래 OR을 추가했다는 것에 동의하지만 그것은 2월 22일이었다.내가 삭제했을 때 네가 편집자인지 몰랐어.이 분쟁들을 잘못 묘사하고 개인화하는 것은 여기서 큰 이슈다.스프링키(토크) 13:37, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
미안, 나 지금 엄청나게 바빠.내가 이런 일에 연관되어 있다는 것도 알고 있고, 너의 리트레이닝은 한눈에 봐도 정확해 보이지만, 나중에 시간이 날 때 제대로 끼어들게 될 거야.Volteer1 (대화) 14:43, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 사용자 간의 이전 만남:Notecook사용자:Springee는 약 5개월 전 위키백과DRN에서 긴 중재자였다.분쟁_해결_공지판/아카이브_201#PragerU.필자의 관찰은 이 두 편집자가 내용에 대해 동의하지 않으며, 노턱이 장황하고(DRN에서는 일반적이며 도움이 되지 않는다는 것이었다.정말 6개의 RFC가 하나로 굴러가는 장시간의 RFC로 끝난 어려운 콘텐츠 논쟁이었다.분쟁 당사자들은 모두 민사적이었고, 정확성처럼 미덕이라기보다는 의무다.중재자와 내가 DRN으로 가야 한다는 데 동의한 것은 Notecook이 중재 요청을 제출한 이후였다.나는 이후 노탁과 스프링이의 상호 작용에 관여하지 않았다.로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 22:54, 2021년 6월 25일 (UTC)

(비관리자 의견) 샌드박스에 대해, 특수에 빈 내용:Diff/1029281530, 아래에 붙여넣음.사용자는 주로 스프링이에 대한 불만(토크 · 기여)이 많이 쌓였다.나는 CNN과 같이 언급된 몇몇 출처들은 일반적으로 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 간주되기 때문에 스프링키에 대한 정당한 우려를 가지고 있다는 점에 주목한다.그들의 현재 개정안은 AP2 주제 금지 (앤디 응고 관련)가 되어야 할 사람은 자신이 아닌 스프링이라고 생각한다고 말하고 있다.하지만, 나는 이것이 사용자들 사이의 상호 작용 금지를 정당화할 수 있다고 생각한다.LaundryPizza03 (dcf) 01:31, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)

  • 긴 diff 리스트의 문제점은 물건이 자주 되돌아간다는 것이다.노탁의 기록도 그리 정확하지 않다.다른 편집자가 "대학 픽스"를 추가했음에도 불구하고 그들이 나를 소스로 추가했다고 비난하는 부분을 위에 생각해 보라.때때로 기사에서 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 제거하는 것은 RS가 아닌 FRY, WP:V, 특정 표현 등과 관련이 있다.최근 앤디 응고 기사에서 롤링스톤즈를 삭제하자는 의견이 나왔다.그것은 사실이 아니었다.나는 Wp:V에 실패한 구체적인 주장과 그것과 관련된 중복 인용은 삭제했다.노턱이 수개월 동안 그렇게 긴 리스트를 만들어 왔다는 사실이 나의 PULICMIC의 우려를 뒷받침해 준다.긴 목록은 내가 스스로 부과한 1RR 규칙을 두 번 위반했지만 한 번 기록하지 않은 것은 IP 편집기를 되돌리는 것이었고, 다른 하나는 3월 7일이었는데, 편집 요약을 포함하지 않았기 때문에 나는 스스로 되돌아갔다[59][60].스프링키(토크) 02:19, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • dcfuse I는 절대적으로 다음과 같이 WP 출범을 추진하는 시민-POV의 길고 추악한 역사에 대한 충분한 증거가 있다고 주장한다.Springee에 대한 ANI 조치, 잠재적으로 관련될 수 있는 엄청난 수의 확산이 주요 난관. dlthewave 나는 Springee가 Odal 룬 페이지를 "저트래픽"으로 특징짓는 것이 Springee의 선택적 리콜과 정책 적용의 전형이라는 것에 대해 당신의 좌절감을 공유한다.마찬가지로, 최근 앤디 응고 페이지에 대한 나의 참여 증가는 6월 18일 스프링이가 부당한 도매 환불을 한 것에 대한 응답이었다.내가 조금 전에 추가했던 재료의 ROWN)이다.[61] 나는 NGO가 특별히 교화한다고는 보지 않으며, 최근에는 내 샌드박스에서 텍사스 혁명과 러시아 관련 주제와 같은 더 흥미로운 일에 대부분의 시간을 할애했다.[62] Dlthewave에서 언급했듯이, 나는 Springee의 분명한 동기가 그들이 WP로서 활용할 수 있는 "퍼스트 무버 우위"를 찾고 있다고 믿는다.그들 자신의 행동을 방해하는 부메랑.물론, WP에 따르면:부메랑: 누군가의 인지된 비행이 게시판에서 보도된다면, 토론은 원래 불만 사항에만 초점을 맞출 수 있고, 토론을 돌려서 원기자의 비행을 논하는 것은 "주제를 바꾸는"이므로 허용되지 않는다는 믿음이 가끔 있다. 하지만, 그것은 사실이 아니다. 논쟁이나 토론에 참여한 사람이라면 누구나 그들의 행동이 면밀히 관찰되고 있음을 발견할 수 있을 것이다.Notecuck (대화) 01:43, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
누가 "대학 픽스"를 추가했는지에 대한 극히 사소한 문제에 대해, 그것은 스프링키가 아니었다.나는 아직도 당신이 앤디 NGO가 "카투"와 "대학 픽스"[63]의 출처를 근거로 좌파 시위자들로부터 그들의 신뢰성에 의문을 제기하지 않고 위협받고 있는 것에 대해 논점을 추가한 반면, RS가 NGO에 대해 더 비판적인 입장을 반복적으로 도전하고 되돌린 것에 대해서는 설명할 수 없다고 생각한다.응, 이번 달만 해도 NGO 페이지에서 롤링스톤 자료를 삭제하셨잖아요.[64]노트북(대화) 02:44, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
그리고 이것이 우리가 세부적인 것들을 봐야 하는 이유야. 왜냐하면 당신은 여전히 좌우를 잘못 알고 있기 때문이야.먼저, 이러한 편집은 토크 페이지 토론[65]을 시작한 후에 이루어졌다.둘째, 출처를 하나도 추가하지 않았다.네가 링크한 편집은 내가 상위 기사의 언어와 일치하도록 언어를 변경한 것이다.더 이상은 아니다.만약 그런 출처에 대해 불평하고 싶다면, 그것들을 추가한 편집자와 얘기해 보는 게 어때?Rolling Stone에 대해서는, 당신은 두 가지 주장을 털어놓고 있다.출처의 중복된 예만 제거했을 때 출처를 제거했다는 비난을 받는 것에 대해 이야기하고 있었다.한 번의 편집만 보는 디프는 제거된 소스가 중복되었다는 것을 놓칠 수 있다.당신이 참조하는 Rolling Stones 자료에 대해서는, 그것이 Wp:V를 통과하지 못한 것이 문제였습니다.출처는 아직 기사에 있지만 구체적인 주장은 OR이었다.스프링키(토크) 02:58, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)


약 20KB, Notecook 별(토크 · 기여)

2021년 5월 스프링키는 카토 연구소가 RS라고 명시적으로 믿었지만 SPLC는 그렇지 않다고 명명하면서 다시 그들의 이념적 입장에 근거한 출처에 대한 선별적인 평가를 표명했다.

Partisan reverts: some of the sources Springee has removed from pages related to conservative politics because they are "biased", "subjective" or some other feeble reason: the Southern Poverty Law Center,[66][67][68][69][70][71] The New York Times and CNN,[72][73] National Review(!),[74] The Washington Post,[75] Newsweek,[76], The Washington Post and NBC,[77] The Washington Post and Bellingcat[78], Vox and The Daily Beast[79], the Los Angeles Times,[80] The Intercept,[81] the [[BBC],[82] Rolling Stone, Jacobin and Columbia Journalism Review[83], BuzzFeed News,[84] The Guardian(including restoring grammatical errors!)[85], Salon (website),[86] Forbes,[87] the Seattle Times,[88] Reports sans Frontieres,[89] New Republic and NBC News,[90] the Chicago Sun-Times[91] Politico and four other sources,[92] The Independent,[93] Daily Dot,[94][95][96] Reuters and Fox News(!)[97] Middle East Eye,[98] The Huffington Post,[99] Mother Jones,[100] and smaller-scale newspapers퓰리처상 8회 수상자 캔자스시티 스타, [101][102]Des Moines Register[103]아리조나 공화국[104][105] 및 학술기사[106]과 같다.이것들은 2020년 11월로 거의 거슬러 올라간다!보수주의자들에게 알려지지 않은 자료들을 삭제하는 스프링이의 패턴이 점점 더 뻔뻔해졌기 때문에 나열해야 할 것들이 너무 많다.스프링키는 또한 화석 연료 로비 단체[107]의 기사에 찬성하는 하버드 대학교기후 변화 거부 촉진에 관한 연구를 엑손 모빌 페이지에서 계속하도록 하기 위한 장기간의 후방 감시 활동과 더불어 같은 기사에 뉴욕 타임즈의 기사를 포함시키는 것에 대해 장황하게 경쟁했다.[108] 이와 관련하여 스프링키는 강력한 기후변화 거부 집단[109][110][111][112][113] - 월 스트리트 저널[114][115]의 호출기를 화이트닝한 기록이 있는 것 같다.[116] 스프링의 반전의 모든 것의 일관된 특징은 입증의 무게가 아니라 이념의 경직이다. - 물질적으로 도전하는 것은 항상 보수적인 주제에 대해 신뢰성 있게, 그러나 논쟁의 여지가 없을 정도로 근거가 있는 것이다.나는 증거로 약 50 디프를 제공했다.여기 Springee를 향한 다른 편집자들의 "화이트워싱"에 대한 비난이 있다.[117][118][119][120][121][122] 스프링키는 위키 정책에 대한 허황된 불만 측면에서 편집자에게 책을 던질 것이며, 출처를 경쟁하고 가능한 한 그 과정을 오래 끌기 위해 RfC를 자주 출시할 것이다.Springee가 Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray(저술가), PragerU에 대해 편집한 내용을 돌아보면 이 패턴이 몇 번이고 반복적으로 재생되는 것을 볼 수 있을 것이다.결과는 강력하고 돈 많은 보수주의자들의 이익을 대변하는 끔찍할 정도로 백지화된 페이지들이다 - 현재의 PragerU 페이지에서는 단 한 문장만이 Prager에게 바쳐진 반면, 구글에 대한 회사의 성공적인 소송에 대해 주어진 아첨하는 단락이 3개 단락과 310단어로 되어 있다고 생각한다.U가 잘 문서화한[123][124][125][126][127][128]의 기후변화에 관한 오보 기록.

2020년 9월 15일, Springee는 자발적으로 1RR 규칙 제한을 따르겠다고 말했다.[129] 그럼에도 불구하고.그들은 반복적으로 이 요청을 위반했다 - 2021년 1월 28일,[130][131], 2021년 3월 7일,[132][133]

For other contentions of Springee's partisan bias, see[134][135][136] for behavorial problems on pages related to conservative politics[137][138][139][140][141][142][143][144][145][146], including a formal sanction in the area of American politics[147] unwarranted deletion of material[148][149][150] especially misbehavior related to guns[151][152][153][154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162][163][164][165][166][167][168][169][170][171][172].특히 화기 옹호[173][174][175][176]와 화기 백일장[177][178]에 대한 여러 가지 명백한 주장이 있다.이러한 분열을 겪게 되면, 설명되지 않은 블록 회전과 돌벽이 스프링키에게는 특별한 문제라는 것을 알 수 있을 것이다.스프링이 게시판을 남용하고 다른 편집자들에게 지나치게 소송을 걸었다는 비난을 받은 적이 있다는 것은 주목할 필요가 있다.[179] 이러한 차이점들은 (a) Springee의 위법행위에 대한 기록과 (b) 단편적인 측면에서 완전하지 않기 때문에 개별적으로 완전히 방해를 받는 것은 아닐 수 있다.내가 여기서 초점을 맞추는 것은 스프링이지만, 그들이 종종 다른 사람들과 함께 일종의 태그팀으로 활동하며, 변함없이 보수 정치와 관련된 주제에 대해 서로를 지지한다는 것은 주목할 필요가 있다.[180][181], [182][183], [184],[185],[186]

말할 필요도 없이, 같은 당파적 주장을 하는 복수의 편집자를 다루는 것은 좌절감을 준다.당신은 위키피디아에 대해 알려진 좌익 편향에 대해 몇 가지 언급을 했다.[187] 명백하게 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에 대한 샤인리틀라이트의 주장 중 일부는 솔직히 상당히 기괴하다 - Prager에 비판적인 노스캐롤라이나 대학의 교수가 작성한 널리 알려진 보고서에 대한 이 확대된 (그리고 당혹스러운) 불평을 본다.u[188]와 이 시도는 케노샤 소요 총격 용의자와 관련하여 "백인 민족주의자"라는 용어가 사용되지 않도록 하기 위한 것이다.[189] PragerU는 페이스북[190][191]에서 오보를 퍼뜨리는 "반복적 범죄자"의 기준을 충족시켰지만, PragerU Wiki 페이지에는 "오보"가 거의 나타나지 않는다.놀랍게도, 이 편집자들은 20개 이상의 출처를 포함하는 잘못된 정보를 언급할 수 있는 헤더에 대한 제안된 추가에 대한 불충분한 소싱을 주장해왔다.[192] 프라거에 비판적인 모든 추가 사항들은 무자비하게 숙청된다.
UPDATE4: WP를 통해 자세히 살펴보았다.안내판과 Springee는 턱이 떨어지는 97(!!)에 보통 여러 번 다른 보관 페이지에 나타난다.시더777셰이디답스는 스프링키의 편집에 무엇이 문제인가를 반복해서 요약했다:스프링이는 보수 정치와 관련된 한 페이지에 있는 새로운 자료의 모든 블록을 되돌린다(WP, WP, WP에 대한 오랜 역사에도 불구하고:ROWN은 Springee에게 익숙하지 않은 것으로 보인다), 출처가 적법하지 않다고 주장, 출처가 RS가 아니라고 주장, 출처의 내용을 잘못 표현하고, 만약 이것이 모두 실패하면 Springee는 어떠한 합의도 없다고 주장하면서 본질적으로 개인적인 거부권을 요구한다.
S, 그것은 잘못된 성격이다 - 나는 어떤 것의 편집자들을 "구제"하지 않았다.나는 정책, 즉 WP의 편집자들에게 다음과 같이 상기시켰다.ROWN - 여기 출처[193] Noteck (토크) 15:27, 2021년 2월 23일(UTC)

스프링이의 허위 편집 및 번복 기록: 2021년

[194][195]

2020년 7월: 앤디 ngo 페이지에 추가된 좋은 자료의 반환.[196] 터커 칼슨에 대한 좋은 자료의 반환.[197][198][199][200][201][202][203][204][205][206][207][208]

2020년 6월 7월: 보수 역사학자 빅터 데이비스 한센의 페이지에 추가된 좋은 자료의 반환.[209][210]

2020년 6월:앤디 응고 [211][212][213], 터커 칼슨[214], 버트 루탄[215]

제안 1: 양방향 상호 작용 금지

서로 싫어하는 두 편집자의 또 다른 사례다.사용자 간의 양방향 상호 작용 금지를 제안한다.Notecook사용자:일반적인 예외만 있는 스프링키.둘 다 미국 정치 영역에서 편집하기 때문에, 이것은 둘 다에게 불편을 줄 것이다.편집자 간의 대립은 양쪽 편집자에게 불편해야 한다.로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 15:36, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)

  • 제안자로서의 지원.로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 15:36, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 반대하라 나는 개인적으로 노턱을 반대하지 않는다.나는 그들과 교류하고 싶지 않다.만약 그들이 AGF에 동의한다면 나도 그렇게 할 수 있어 기쁘다.노르트르덕의 미개한 행동으로 인해 내가 오랫동안 관여해 온 기사 편집 능력이 제한되어서는 안 된다고 생각한다.North8000에서 말했듯이 AP2가 대립할 수 있다는 것을 알고 있기 때문에 나는 높은 길을 택한다.Springee (대화) 15:55, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 이 문제에 대한 해결책이 아니라 반대하라.이것은 두 편집자가 서로를 좋아하지 않는 것에 관한 것이 아니다.아니 오히려 그 이상이다.내 말은 모든 ANI 보고서는 둘 이상의 편집자들이 서로를 좋아하지 않는 것을 포함한다.IBAN을 나눠주면 우리 모두 IBAN이 될 거야.여기서 문제는 업무 중단이며, 업무 중단을 초래하는 편집자들은 프로젝트에서 완전히 배제되어야 한다.아니면 적어도 주제 영역은.우리는 이것에 대한 알림판 드라마를 충분히 보았다. (내 카운트로는: Arbcom 요청, DRN, 적어도 한 AN, 적어도 한 ANI, 그리고 그것이 전부는 아닐 것이다.)여기에 진짜 문제가 있거나 누군가가 정말로 울어대고 있는 것이다.어느 쪽이든 IBAN은 해결책이 아니다.(또한 중립국이 나중에 참가자에 대한 제재를 제안하면 아무도 DRN을 사용하지 않을 것이다.)나로서는, 다른 사람에 대한 제재에 대해 아직 사건이 만들어지는 것을 보지 못했는데, 그 이유는 대부분 잘못된 긍정적인 차이점이 너무 많기 때문이다.그래서 만약 이 글을 읽는 누군가가 이 실이 행동으로 끝나야 한다고 생각한다면, 나는 당신의 최고의 의견과 인용문을 게시하고 무엇이 필요하고 왜 필요한지에 대해 명확하고 간략하게 논할 것을 제안하고 싶다.레비비치 16:10, 2021년 6월 26일(UTC)
  • 반대 - 문제는 Springee 또는 양방향 상호작용이 아니라 WP:HRUKING by Noteduck 정책 vio이며 관리자의 즉각적인 주의가 필요하다.이것은 용납할 수 없는 행동이다.Hounding은 UCoC, 섹션 3.1 Harrising을 위반한다 - 그것은 매우 심각한 행동 문제이며, 어떤 편집자도 WP에서 또는 WP에서 호칭될 자격이 없다.아츠메 me 17:30, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 반대 이것은 상황을 잘못 묘사한다.스프링키는 그 조심스럽고 예의 바른 높은 길을 꾸준히 걸어왔다.그리고 그들은 사냥에서 벗어나기 위해 이곳에 왔다.아마도 당면한 주제에 대해 노턱에게 경고하는 것만으로도 이 문제를 해결하기에 충분할 것이다.북8000 (대화) 18:32, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 반대하라 나는 이 문제를 해결하기 위한 로버트 맥클론의 노력에 감사한다.그러나 나는 이 논쟁적인 WP에도 불구하고 여기서 문제가 비대칭이라고 생각한다.Springee의 BU메랑.다시, WP의 주장이 제기될 경우:HOUND가 만들어지고 있는데, 정책 본문에 대한 구체적인 언급이 있어야 한다.필자는 필자[216]스프링의 [217]의 기고 페이지를 모두 훑어보고, 광범위한 주제에 건설적으로 추가한 편집자와 우파 정치 관련 페이지의 경쟁 자료에 집요한 편집자의 대조를 볼 것을 권한다.
  • 철회 - 나는 이 제안을 철회할 용의가 있다.다른 사람이 다른 제안을 할까?로버트 맥클레논 (대화) 21:44, 2021년 6월 26일 (UTC)
  • 다시 열고 지원 - Robert McClenon이 이 제안을 철회했지만, 나는 그것을 다시 제출하고 싶다.여기서 해결해야 할 문제가 있는데, 나는 이 제안이 다른 어떤 것보다, 특히 노턱에 대한 어떤 일방적 제재보다도 잘 해결된다고 생각한다.로키 (대화) 06:18, 2021년 7월 6일 (UTC)
  • 지원 샌드박스가 Springee에 대한 Notecuck의 가식적인 행동과 사용자 토크 개요를 보여준다.노트룩과 편집 이력을 보면 스프링이가 노트룩의 편집과 사용자들 간의 싸움에 대해 반복적으로 불평하는 것을 알 수 있다.이 사용자 강연에서 145개의 편집 내용 중 노턱이 46개를, 스프링이가 44개를 각각 편집해 전체 편집 내역의 약 1/3을 각각 만들었다.번째 의견은 앤디 NGO에 대한 사용자들의 편집 중 어느 한 쪽이 문제가 있는지 판단하기 위해 필요할 것이며, 이것은 이 BLP나 1992년 이후의 미국 정치에서 보다 광범위하게 주제를 금지할 수 있다.LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:37, 2021년 7월 7일 (UTC) 18:44, 2021년 7월 7일 (UTC)
빨래피자03 나는 스프링이가 앤디 NGO에 대해 편집한 것을 볼 수 있다면 기쁘겠지만, 이것들은 특히 대담 페이지에 있는 자료들의 가차없고 장기화된 경쟁을 통해 우익 정치와 관련된 페이지의 표지가 없는 자료들을 차단하는 훨씬 더 큰 패턴의 일부에 불과하다고 말할 필요가 있다.Springee가 Talk에서 521개의 편집을 했다는 점에 유의하십시오.Andy Ngo(페이지 전체 편집의 16.64%)[218] Notecuck (대화) 01:21, 2021년 7월 9일 (UTC)
  • 반대 - 두 사람은 원하지 않고, 제안자는 그것을 철회했고, 문제는 스프링이가 아니라 메탁이다 - 여기에 거짓 등가성이 있어서는 안 된다.나는 아래에 더 많이 말한다.교차로05:32,2021년7월9일(UTC)

제안 #2

적어도 WP:호킹, WP:배틀그라운드 및 특히 Springee에 대한 Noteck의 WP:civility 거동에 대한 우려를 제기할 만큼 충분히 관찰되고 검토되었다.Notecuck은 그러한 종류의 행동을 피하도록 경고 받는다.북8000 (대화) 14:25, 2021년 6월 27일 (UTC)

나는 이것을 지지하거나 대안으로 MfD Notuck의 샌드박스를 그들이 나와 관련되지 않은 콘텐츠를 보관할 수 있다는 것을 이해하면서 받아들일 것이다.이것은 진정서 목록이고 명백한 폴미크 위반이다.이는 특히 많은 주장들이 실제로 문제의 차이점을 살펴보면 거짓이기 때문에 더욱 그렇다.스프링키(토크) 01:19, 2021년 6월 28일(UTC)

삭제된 것을 보고 싶다면 직접 MfD에 지명하는 것이 어떨까?dlthewave view 12:21, 2021년 6월 28일(UTC)
나는 그것을 고려했지만 우리가 여기서 MfD를 결정한다면 그것이 완성되는 것을 확실히 하는 것이 더 쉬울 것이다.스프링키(토크) 10:44, 2021년 6월 29일(UTC)
  • 논평 - 위의 토론을 보면, 나는 노턱의 행동이 경고할 가치가 있거나 심지어 그러한 문제들에 대한 기준을 충족시킬 만한 가치가 있다는 합의가 있는지 잘 모르겠다.추가 제안을 종결하기 전에 권한 없는 편집자, 특히 관리자로부터 더 많은 의견을 기다리는 것이 현명할 수 있다.dlthewave 인터뷰 12:16, 2021년 6월 28일(UTC)
  • 제안자로서 지원하라 상황을 해결할 가능성이 상당히 높은 가장 가벼운 치료법으로서.나는 스프링이의 반응/포스팅을 완전히 이해하지 못했다.그러나 그들은 단지 문제를 해결하기 위해 누군가를 "잡기" 위해 시스템을 사용하는 것으로 보이는 노트룩의 작업을 언급하고 있으며, 그것은 삭제되어야 한다는 것에 동의할 것이다.북8000 (대화) 13:05, 2021년 6월 28일 (UTC)
  • 지원이 최근에 제한적이었고 한동안 의지할 곳이 없었다.나는 노턱이 나를 반대하는 캠페인을 벌이고 있는 것이 분명하다고 생각한다. (그들이 갑자기 다른 편집자들과 접촉하는 것을 보여주는 차이점들과 그들이 이전에 관여하지 않았던 경우들을 보라.)지난 2월 시작된 폴미크 리스트도 문제다.네, 블랭킹했다가 바로 백업해서 절대 사라지지 않고 아래 무너진 부분이 보이듯이 여전히 접근성이 아주 좋답니다.이 목록은 편집자들이 그것이 어떤 형태나 형태든 믿을 수 있게 수집되었다고 가정할 때 심각한 문제가 된다.대부분의 예에 문맥이 포함되어 있지 않다는 사실 외에도, 단지 명백한 잘못된 주장들이 많다(본문 블록을 옮기는 경우 출처가 제거되었다고 말하는 것은 내가 스스로 되돌릴 때 1RR을 위반했다고 말한 다음 편집 노트를 수정하기 위해 복원했다고 말하는 등).마침내, 양극화 현상을 일으키려고 하는군!레비비히의 말이 옳다. 만약 이것이 대립적인 행동을 초래하는 문제라면 편집자는 대립적인 영역에 관여하지 말아야 한다.스프링키(토크) 10:44, 2021년 6월 29일(UTC)
  • 특별히 민감한 Springee를 언급하지는 마십시오.어쨌든 Springee는 WP에서 사용하기 위해 샌드박스에 있는 재료를 수집할 수 없는 비대칭 규칙을 원하는 것 같다.불만 사항.우리가 이미 관찰한 바와 같이, 이것은 완전히 이중 잣대다.나는 분명히 정책의 "시간적" 요건에 대해 더 주의할 것이지만, 이것은 샌드박스 기능의 중요한 부분이며, 특히 다가올 불만에 대한 투명성을 위해 그렇다.나의 샌드박스를 한 번 보면 대다수가 스프링키가 아니라 위키 개선을 위한 다양한 애완동물 프로젝트에 집중한다는 것을 알 수 있다.가 방금 농부나 수렵 채집인을 만들었어? 다크 에뮤 디베이트 btw와 나는 그것에 꽤 만족한다. (토크) 07:06, 2021년 6월 30일 (UTC)
이중 잣대는 없다.당신은 2월부터 고충처리 리스트를 유지해왔다.그것은 당신이 하지 않은 내용물을 적시에 사용할 경우에만 허용된다.리스트의 1%만 Polemic이고 0%는 상한이다.당신이 6월 19일에 목록을 삭제했다는 사실은 아무것도 배우지 않고 새로운 것을 시작했다는 것을 보여준다면 아무 의미도 없다.스프링키(토크) 09:28, 2021년 6월 30일(UTC)
좀 헷갈리긴 한데, 이전 리스트를 삭제한 후 새로운 리스트가 나오면 안 되는 거였어?dlthewave 인터뷰 13:28, 2021년 6월 30일(UTC)
이것이 도움이 될지는 잘 모르겠지만, 나는 "시간적" 부분은 현재의 문제를 해결하려고 노력하는 불만 사항과 편집자를 "잡거나" 제거하려고 하는 장기적인 구조 사이의 구별을 하는 역할을 한다고 생각한다.그리고 후자는 특히 다른 편집자에 대한 극성 통치의 이유일 것이다.아마도, 제안된 온화한 경고 외에, 노턱이 이러한 목표를 각별히 주의하고 염두에 두는 데 동의할 수 있다면?북8000(대화) 12시 42분, 2021년 6월 30일(UTC)
나는 그것이 좋은 구별이라고 생각한다.한 달은 디프트를 수집하기에 적당한 기간이지만, 만약 이 목록이 7월 중순에 여전히 여기에 있다면 그것은 명백한 PERGIC이 될 것이고 이제 Notecuck은 그 정책에 대해 명확하게 경고를 받을 것이다.스프링키(토크) 18:10, 2021년 6월 30일(UTC)
그래, 나는 분명히 그 정책의 "시간적" 언어에 맞추어 한 달도 안 되는 기간 동안 내 샌드박스에 자료를 보관하는 것을 목표로 할 수 있다.내가 수집한 자료는 목적이 없고 모호한 극성의 일부가 아니라 WP를 위한 구체적인 근거가 되는 것이었다.불만 사항.샌드박스는 그런 증거를 모으기에 편리한 곳인데, 필자는 당신이 왜 스프링이노텍(토크) 01:50, 2021년 7월 1일(UTC)과 같은 이유로 그것을 사용했는지 확신해.
Springee, 그저 지난 며칠 동안의 예를 관찰하는 것 - 나는 이러한 대량 회전의 패턴을 연구할 것이다. 특히 다른 편집자들이 우파 정치와 관련된 당신의 편집에 대해 우려를 제기했기 때문에 더욱 그렇다.WP를 떠올리게 했다.ROWN은 여러 번, 그리고 10년 이상의 경험으로 너도 잘 알고 있을 거야.당신은 이 자료가 TPUSA가 아닌 커크에 관한 것이었으므로 후자의 페이지에는 속하지 않는다는 것을 정확히 알고 있다.이 자료를 찰리 커크(활동가) 페이지로 옮기거나, 커크 페이지에 해당 자료가 속하지 않는다고 생각되면 커크 토크 페이지나 문제의 토크 페이지에 있는 편집자로 가져가세요.Notecook (대화) 04:24, 2021년 7월 1일 (UTC)
만약 당신의 의도가 시기적절하다면 왜 아무런 조치 없이 5개월 동안 불평을 수집했는가?내가 TPUSA에서 삭제한 내용이 페이지에 속하지 않는다는 것을 네가 인식할 수 있어서 기쁘다.나는 확실히 당신이 나에게 부탁하는 다른 페이지에서 그 내용이 마감될 수 있도록 사례를 만들 의무가 없다.스프링키(토크) 05:17, 2021년 7월 1일 (UTC)
Springee 나는 단지 당신의 경험과 TPUSA와 근거리 주제에 관한 페이지에 초점을 맞추면, 당신은 경험이 적은 편집자들을 도울 수 있을 것이라고 추천하고 있다.내가 앤디 응고에 추가한 여덟 단어의 문장을 다시 되돌렸구나. 비록 당신의 반박이 실질적인 것은 아니었지만.처음에 WP를 참조하셨습니다.OR, 그리고 이제 WP:V, 어떤 정책에서 당신이 당신의 주장을 뒷받침하고 있는지 명시하지 않고.넓은 붓 거부 Noteck (talk) 05:55, 2021년 7월 1일 (UTC)보다는 편집 정책의 특정 언어의 새로운 편집에 대한 이의제기를 권고한다.
나와 몇몇 다른 경험 많은 편집자들은 일찍부터 너를 도와주려고 노력했다.우리의 노력은 AE가 당신에게 불리하게 채워지고 당신은 공식적으로 경고를 받을 정도로 적개심에 부딪혔다.Ngo 자료는 두 명의 편집자에 의해 되돌아가고 WP:V에 실패한다.ONUS는 당신이 그 문제를 해결할 책임이 있다.추가하기 위해 1RR을 위반했던 것과 동일한 내용을 복원했다는 것은 기록된 경고를 마음에 새기지 않았음을 보여준다.스프링키(토크)
Springee는 최근 위키피디아에서 다음과 같은 조치를 시작했다.앞서 언급한 짧은 14단어 문장과 관련하여 독창적인 연구/공지[221]는 없다.[222] 그들은 또한 Talk에서 진행중인 싸움을 하고 있다.앤디 NGO는 이 같은 자료에 이의를 제기한다.[223]노트북.
잘못된 문자는 차치하고라도, 그것들은 위키피디아 어의 좋은 예로서, 정중하고 내용에 초점을 맞춘 질문/발표를 처리하는 방법이다.북8000 (대화) 11:36, 2021년 7월 2일 (UTC)
Springee에게 온화한 조언 btw:나는 앤디 응고("Springee")가 페이지 아카이브에서 600개 이상의 조회수를 기록하고 찰리 커크를 통해 파업하는 등 우익 정치 페이지를 넘어 당신의 이익 기반을 다변화하는 것을 목표로 삼을 것을 권고한다.위 TPUSA에 관한 사항 때문에 뇌에 떠올랐어. 제발 체리픽하지 마.앞서 지난 4월 논쟁에서 지적했듯이, 최근 편집한 약 1000개의 표본을 근거로 볼 때, 95% 이상이 보수 정치 관련 페이지와 관련이 있을 때도 있다.다른 곳에서 다양하고 독창적인 콘텐츠를 만드는 것이 훨씬 만족스럽다는 것을 알게 되었다(토크) 03:54, 2021년 7월 3일(UTC)
흥미롭군...어디 보자, 찰리 커크 페이지에 얼마나 많은 편집이 필요한지...[[224]].0으로 보인다.네가 집중할 수 있는 다른 분야를 발견하게 되어 기쁘다.바라건대 그것은 당신이 더 이상 당신의 Polemic 위반 목록이 필요하지 않고 나를 사냥하거나 공격할 필요가 없다는 것을 의미하기를 바란다.그거 좋겠는데.스프링키(토크) 04:04, 2021년 7월 3일(UTC)
위[225]의 편집에 대응하여, 비판을 쏟아내기 전에 사실을 정확하게 하는 것이 항상 좋은 생각이다.그것은 너의 PULMIC 고충 처리 목록과 관련된 문제들 중 하나이다.그것이 PERGICMIC을 위반한다는 사실은 또 다른 사실이다.스프링키(토크) 04:19, 2021년 7월 3일(UTC)
  • 조건부 지원 - 새로운 편집자들에게는 처음 경고하는 것이 관례지만, 이 경우 특히 "스프링키에게 온화한 충고"로 시작하는 스프링키스 바로 위에 있는 노턱의 논평과 스프링키 편집의 95%가 보수정치에 대한 것이라는 그들의 언급 등을 고려할 때 지나치게 정중하다.와우 - 그 진술은 HRUKING의 꽤 큰 증거를 제공한다.스프링의 편집 중 100%가 보수정치에 관한 것이라면, POV 푸셔가 아닌 편집자가 왜 신경을 써야 하는가?이런 기사들은 강력한 POV 추진력 때문에 주목해야 할 기사들, 그리고 메아리 챔버를 장악하고 있는 좌편향 뉴스 매체들이며, 이 모든 것들은 일반적으로 그러한 기사들에 더 많은 작업이 있다는 것을 의미한다.우리는 로그인할 때 편견을 남긴다.WP는 협력적인 프로젝트다 - 우리는 우리 자신의 견해, 특히 베테랑 편집자들이 편집해야 하거나 편집해서는 안 되는 곳에 반대하는 다른 편집자들을 "자문"하지 않는다.관리자들은 업무 중단이 입증될 때 그런 결정을 내리는 사람들이고 지금 내가 보고 있는 유일한 업무 중단은 노트룩에서 오는 것뿐이야나는 스프링이가 그런 인내심을 발휘한 것을 칭찬한다.아츠메 me 10:45, 2021년 7월 3일(UTC)
Atsme, Springee의 비슷한 평가에 대해 어떻게 생각하는가: Nottuck은 이 글쓰기 당시, 3월 25일에 미개하고 문제가 있는 AP2 행동과 관련된 경고를 받은 이후부터 ~185개의 편집을 했다.50%가 넘는 사람들은 어느 정도능력을 가지고 있었고, 이어 노턱의 편집에 대한 상세한 분석이 뒤따랐다고?왜 Springee가 Nottuck이 편집해 온 곳의 백분율을 계산하는 것이 괜찮은가? 그러나 Nottuck이 같은 일을 할 때 그것은 hurting으로 간주되는가?dlthewaveview 05:16, 2021년 7월 5일(UTC)
안녕, Dlthewave - 간결함을 위해, Springee는 괴롭힘을 당하고 있고 같은 증거를 제공할 것으로 기대되는 반면에, Notecuk의 논평은 본질적으로 정치적인 것이다.아츠메 me 11:13, 2021년 7월 5일(UTC)
당신이 주목하듯이 나는 이 ANI 실에 대한 면밀한 검토 자체만으로도 그 상황에 대해 많은 것을 말해준다고 생각한다.내 제안서 2번이 너무 온화했는지는 모르겠지만 좋든 나쁘든 그건 내 방식이야.아마도 일방적 상호 작용 금지는 스프링키에게 결정적인 안도감을 주고 다른 편집자에 대한 배틀그라운드 사고방식과 관련하여 더 강력한 "우리 정말 진심이야"가 되기 위한 더 나은 제안이었을 것이다.그러나 그 경고는 내가 지지하는 대안으로 남아있다.그리고 Springee는 스스로 그것을 지지했고 그래서 그들은 적어도 이 "한 번 시도해봐" 단계에서는 그것이 충분하다고 느낄 것이다.진심으로, North8000 (대화) 12:51, 2021년 7월 3일 (UTC)
는 WP의 어떤 부분에 대해 확신할 수 없다.HOUND "온화한 충고"나 그것이 어떻게 전쟁터적 사고방식을 보여주는지를 비난할 것이다.나는 내가 본 건전한 조언이라고 생각하는 것을 나의 경험에 근거하여 제공했는데, 그것은 논쟁적인 정치 기사들이 종종 끝내는 대화 페이지에 장시간의 시간을 소비하는 것보다 페이지를 만들고 위키에게 광범위한 독창적인 기여를 하는 것이 훨씬 더 만족스럽다는 것이다.Springee는 확실히 인식된 오류를 수정하는 것을 목표로 삼았으며, 때로는 꽤 엄격한 용어로 적합하다고 생각했을 때 정책을 상기시키는 것을 내 토크 페이지에서 보았다(User talk: 참고: 사용자 대화:노트룩(Nothuck.나는 관련 없는 프로젝트들을 하느라 정신이 팔리고 바빴지만, 나는 스프링키의 요청에 잘 들어주면서 내 샌드박스의 작은 부분을 차지하는 내가 주목했던 인식된 위반들을 지웠다.[226] 나는 이 ANI 통지 이전에 "시간적 방식"에 대한 요구 사항을 듣지 못하였지만, 나는 그것을 한 달로 해석하고 이것보다 더 오랫동안 내 샌드박스에 정책 불만 사항을 위한 자료를 남겨두지 않아도 된다.이것은 결코 이러한 점들 중 어느 것도 부인하는 것이 아니다.나는 이 WP의 기초에는 전혀 동의하지 않지만 다음과 같이 생각한다.ANI 공지 사항 나는 건설적이고 신실한 태도로 Noteck (대화) 05:08, 2021년 7월 4일 (UTC)
처음 들어봤어?내가 4월 10일 [227], 그리고 5월 25일 [228]에 다시 경고했을 때 왜 문제를 이해하지 못하셨나요?3차 경고로 결국 내용을 삭제하게 된 것은 6월 19일이었다.왜 두 달이나 걸렸을까?내가 경고에서 Polemic 링크를 처음 제공했을 때 시의성 요구 사항을 알고 있었어야 했다.스프링키(토크) 10:53, 2021년 7월 4일(UTC)
Springee 내 페이지에 있는 너의 게시물들 중 어느 것도 시기적절하게 요구되는 것에 대해 언급하지 않았다.Notecook (대화) 12:44, 2021년 7월 4일 (UTC)
그래서 제거하지 못한 게 더 심해.처음 내가 그것이 PERGICMIC을 위반했다고 말했을 때.당신은 굳이 후속 조치를 취하지 않았으니 그건 당신 책임이다.어느 쪽이든, 자네에게 알려졌네.두 번째로 이 부분을 포함했을 때, "인식된 결함의 기록을 포함하여 다른 편집자를 공격하는 것으로 볼 수 있는 자료"가 포함되었다.그래서 당신은 그러한 리스트를 보관할 유일한 이유가 시기적절할 때 예외에 해당되기 때문에 모든 것을 무시하기로 결정했다.그걸 몰랐다면, 어디를 봐야 한다는 말을 들은 후, 무엇을 더 원하는지.사용자 토크 페이지 가이드라인에 어긋난다는 것을 알면서도 목록을 보관하고 있었던 것이 분명하다.Springee (대화) 14:31, 2021년 7월 4일 (UTC)
그것은 사실의 가장 좋은 표현은 아니다.2020년 12월부터 위키 정기 편집을 시작한 나는 물론 다른 편집자들이 샌드박스를 이용해 ANI 불만사항을 취합하고 샌드박스를 이런 목적으로 사용하는 것을 토론하는 것을 보았고, 사실 2월 10일 나는 당신이 나에 대한 불만사항 샌드박스에서 준비하고 있던 자료에 대해 당신의 토크 페이지에 문의했다(빠른 글이었지만).(발찌) [229] WP를 인용하셨습니다.5월 25일 내 토크 페이지에 게재된 글에서 특히 예문 텍스트에 대한 경고 문장으로 WP의 다음 문장:같은 의 Polemic은 "논의 해결 과정을 준비하는 등의 목적을 위해 사용자 서브페이지에 사실적 증거(diffs)를 편집하는 것은 시기적절하게 사용될 경우 허용된다"고 적고 있다.특히 여기서 당신의 주된 반대 의견이 시의적절한 방식 요건과 관련이 있는 것으로 보인다는 점을 감안할 때 왜 이것을 생략하는가?6월 25일에 당신은 이 불만사항의 특정 문구를 시기적절하게 언급했다.[230] 편집정책 Noteck (talk) 07:25, 2021년 7월 5일 (UTC)의 특정 논점을 회피하지 않는 것에 근거해 내가 제재를 받을 자격이 있다고 생각하는 것은 지나친 것으로 보인다.
  • 반대 Springee와 Nottuck이 모두 참여하고 있는 미국의 정치 주제에서 자주 편집되는 사람으로서 나는 그들 사이의 논쟁을 본 적이 없다. 나는 솔직히 내가 처음에 Nottuck의 잘못이라고 느꼈던 것은 결코 없다.이것은 노탁이 완벽한 편집자였다는 것이 아니라, 나는 노탁에 대한 어떠한 일방적인 제재에도 강력히 반대한다는 것이다.그 가치가 무엇인지는 모르겠지만, 나는 위의 상호 작용 금지 또는 스프링키에 대한 일방적 상호 작용 금지를 지지할 것이다.나는 Springee가 Nottuck을 괴롭히는 것에 대해 반대의 경우보다 훨씬 더 좋은 사례가 있다고 생각한다.로키(토크) 06:34, 2021년 7월 4일 (UTC)
어떤 실제 사례를 떠올릴 수 있기 때문일까, 아니면 단지 전술적인 움직임으로 본다고 해서 이런 말을 하는 것일까?Notecuck은 AE에서의 예의와 편집 전쟁에 대해 경고를 받았다.다른 편집자들(나 자신이 포함)이 이러한 문제들을 시작했는가?스프링키(토크) 10:53, 2021년 7월 4일(UTC)
"전투 심리"를 "전투적인 움직임"에 대해 추측하는 것만큼 "전투적인 사고방식"을 말하는 것은 없다.제발, 선의로 행동하도록 해.dlthewave view 11:54, 2021년 7월 4일(UTC)
Springee(대화) 14:33, 2021년 7월 4일(UTC)
로키, 스프링키는 꽤 실질적인 사냥 사례들을 제시했어스프링이 사냥을 했다는 네 주장을 뒷받침할 만한 걸 줄 수 있겠니?북8000(대화) 13:26, 2021년 7월 4일(UTC)
오, 물론이지.Notecook의 토크 페이지에 있는 37개 섹션 중 11개 섹션 또는 약 1/3 섹션은 Springee가 Notuck을 나쁜 행위로 고발하는 섹션으로 시작한다: [231], [233], [234], [236], [237], [239], [240], [241].이러한 비난이 실제로 관리자들에게 보고되었을 때, 지금까지 그 중 어느 것도 노턱에 대한 제재 조치를 단 한번의 불성실한 경고보다 더 심각한 결과를 가져오지는 못했다.로키(토크) 03:21, 2021년 7월 5일 (UTC)
안내판에는 경고가 나온 AE와 이번 AE 두 번밖에 없었다.만약 여러분이 본다면, 많은 사람들이 새로운 편집자가 요령을 배울 수 있도록 돕기 위한 선의의 노력이다.다른 것들은 기록된 경고를 초래한 정확한 행동에 대한 것이다.당신과 Dlthewave가 그러한 행동을 묵인하고 있는 것은 유감스러운 일이다.비록 노턱이 제재할 수 있는 선을 넘지 않았다고 생각할지라도, 왜 노턱을 부추기는가?스프링키(토크) 10:12, 2021년 7월 5일(UTC)
로키 테리아, 저건 헛소리 아냐북8000 (대화) 14:02, 2021년 7월 5일 (UTC)

로키Dlthewave가 기록을 바로 세우도록 도와줘서 고마워.내 토크 페이지 기록에서 스프링이가 편집한 내용을 검색하면 스프링이가 44개 편집한 내용 중 30% 이상 편집내용이 나온다.[242] 스프링이의 토크 페이지 이력을 검색하면 노트룩이 13개 편집한 내용이 나온다(그 후 모두 지워졌지만).[243] 이는 일방통행식 표적 WP의 고발과 거의 상응하지 않는다."3월 25일 이후 노턱의 편집 중 50% 이상이 나에 관한 것이었다"에 대해 스프링은 설명하지 않고 있으며, 다시 한번 편집자들로 하여금 나의 편집 이력[244]과 샌드박스에 대한 기여의 다양성을 살펴보도록 요청한다.[245] 나와의 상호작용을 피하고 싶다는 스프링이의 언급된 욕망은 앤디 NGO 토크 페이지에서 그들이 최근에 한 행동과 거의 일치하지 않는다.

  • 6월 18일, Springee는 내가 이전에 관여하지 않았던 부제목에서 나를 비난했고, [246] 내가 ngo 페이지 본문에 추가한 14단어의 짧은 문장을 되돌렸다[247].
  • 이 짧은 문장에 대해 NGO의 토크 페이지에서 2주 가까이 긴 시간 동안 계속 이의를 제기했는데, 여기에는 뚜렷한 어려움 없이 나와 반복적으로 교류하는 것도 포함된다[248]
  • 6월 25일, WP:V 요건에 실패했다고 추정된다는 근거로, 이 같은 짧은 문장을 원래의 연구 게시판에 가져갔다[249], 오직 다른 자발적인 편집자들이 경합된 문장에 대한 나의 오랜 해석을 재빨리 단언할 수 있었다.[250][251].

WP의 결과를 고려할 때:그들이 시작한 NORN 토론, 스프링이가 자료를 복구하길 바란다.위에서 언급한 바와 같이, [252] 샌드박스에 불만 사항을 조립하는 것에 대해 스프링이로부터 시기적절하게 처리하고 있는 점에 대해 구체적인 언급을 받지 않았으며, 내가 알 수 있는 최선의 방법으로 정책을 적용했을 것이다.추가 질문을 할 수 있게 되어 기쁘다(대화) 07:39, 2021년 7월 5일(UTC)

왜 그럴까? 지지의 공감대가 형성되지 않고 그런 주장에 무게가 실릴 우려도 있다.스프링키(토크) 10:12, 2021년 7월 5일(UTC)
당신은 반대가 상당히 포괄적으로 반박되었다는 것에 동의하지 않는가?Notecook (대화) 23:09, 2021년 7월 5일 (UTC)

이 ANI 실에 대한 검토만으로도 그 상황에 대해 많은 것을 알 수 있다.상황 해결 모색 vs 편집자 비하 모색북8000(대화) 13:42, 2021년 7월 6일(UTC)

  • 위의 주장당 지원 !보트, 그리고 어떻게 이것이 여전히 열려있고 해결되지 않은 것인가?경고와 함께 닫고 다음 단계로 넘어가는 것이 타당할 것 같다.나는 또한 위의 "스프링키에 의한 사냥의 증거"가 사냥의 증거가 아니라는 것에 동의한다.레비비치 18:43, 2021년 7월 7일(UTC)
  • Noteck에 대한 주제 금지, 그렇지 않을 경우 지원 경고.3월부터 기록된 경고문에는 미국 정치의 주제영역에서 편집하는 동안 정책을 준수할 필요가 있으며 WP에 대해서는 그렇게 하지 않고 있다.하운드WP:파괴적인경고할 시간은 지났다. 손목을 한 대 이상 때려야 할 때다. (Closer:Springee가 개업한 직후에도 Serial이 주제 금지를 지원했다는 점에 유의하십시오.)어차피 금지는 앞으로 어필할 수 없는 것도 아니다.그들이 스프링키를 끈질기게 사냥하고 WP라는 것은 위의 증거와 그들 자신의 말로 모두 명백하다.미국 정치를 백과사전적으로 그리고 중립적으로 묘사하기 위해서가 아니라, 오히려잘못을 바로잡고 가능한 한 보수주의자들을 부정적으로 묘사하기 위해서입니다.Springee btw에게 온화한 충고마디그것은 위의 그들 자신의 진술에 예시된다. 우파 정치면을 넘어 이익 기반을 다변화하는 것을 목표로 삼을 것을 권한다...POV 푸셔와 사냥개만이 그렇게 말할 것이다.만약 그들이 ANI에서 공개적으로 말하는 것이라면, 나는 이 기사들의 대화 페이지들이 어떤 것인지 상상할 수 있을 뿐이다.이 개혁운동은 WP이다.위키피디아가 무엇을 위한 것이 아니다; 그것은 건방진 편집의 전형이다.오른쪽의 히트곡에 불과한 위키피디아는 어쨌든 왼쪽의 합창단에게 설교만 할 뿐이다.주제 영역은 때때로 작동되는 이러한 POV 푸셔로부터 결코 이익을 얻지 못한다.많은 편집자들이 추진되고 있는 POV에 동의하는지는 관대함의 근거가 되지 않는다.위에서 언급한 주들을 보면, 나는 다른 곳에서 다양하고 독창적인 콘텐츠를 만드는 것이 훨씬 만족스럽다는 것을 알게 되었으니, 그들이 이 주제 영역에서 멀리하도록 돕자.교차로05:21,2021년7월9일(UTC)
  • 부분적으로 제안의 애매함 때문에 반대한다; 특히 누가 누구를 괴롭히고 있는지에 대해 분쟁이 있을 때, 우리가 본 에세이로 묘사된 행동을 피하기 위한 경고는 정확히 어떤 것인가?나의 일반적인 경험에 따르면, "호킹"이라고 묘사되는 것 중 상당 부분은 결국 공통의 관심 영역에 대한 의견 충돌로 끝나는데, 위키피디아가 불행하게도 비옥한 땅에 있는 일종의 수동적 공격성으로 악화되었다.여기에서는 그렇지 않은지 잘 모르겠어. (예를 들어, 표면적으로는 "조금 다른 주제 영역에서 일해봐"라는 말은 사실 좋은 조언이 될 수 있어.나는 그것을 내 자신에게 여러 번 주었다.중요한 것은 그대로 말하는 어조다.) XOR'easter (대화) 16:37, 2021년 7월 10일 (UTC)
좋든 나쁘든 그것은 스프링키에게 빚진 구제책을 제공할 좋은 기회를 가지면서 호킹 행위의 노골적인 발견을 피하는 것을 포함하여 고의적으로 부드러운 제안이었다.만약 그것이 효과가 없다면, 그 시점에서 좀 더 구체적인 발견과 방향이 제공될 수 있을 것이다.북8000 (대화) 19:57, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
가령 알렉산드리아 오카시오-코르테즈 같은 인물의 페이지에 우파 의견 출처를 근거로 라벨을 붙이며 상대에게 "좌파" 페이지 이외의 페이지를 편집하라고 말하고, 편집자를 따라다니며, 항상 그들에 대해 이야기하며, 그들에 대해 장광설을 늘어놓는 편집자에게 ANI 보고서가 공개되었다고 가정해보자.여기서도 같은 종류의 답변을 볼 수 있을까?아닌 것 같다.아마 외설적일 겁니다.교차로2021년 7월 11일(UTC) 20:57(UTC)
  • 지원 경고만 - 노턱이 스프링이에 대해 너무 호전적인 것 같아.이대로 가면 IBAN으로 넘어갈 수 있다.바라건대 그것은 필요하지 않다.스타쉽.페인트 (출발) 15:21, 2021년 7월 13일 (UTC)
  • 반대 숙련된 편집자들은 때때로 고의적이고 직접적인 지시로 다른 사람들을 가르칠 수 있는 능력을 가지고 있다. 그리고 때로는 무의식적으로 그리고 간접적으로 그들 자신의 예를 통해 이끌어가기도 한다.샌드박스 고충처리 목록은 사용자 Springee가 사용자 Noteduck에 대해 2021년 1월 25일에 처음 시작했다.한 달 후, Notecuck은 샌드박스 고충처리 리스트인 Diff를 만들었는데, 이는 상황을 감안한 합리적인 개발이다.이 편집자들은 분명히 사물을 다르게 보지만 그들은 여러 가지 주제에 대한 관심을 공유한다.XOReaster는 "호킹"으로 묘사되는 것의 상당 부분이 결국 공유 관심 영역에 대한 의견 충돌로 귀결된다는 관찰을 여기에 적용한다.시더777 (대화) 14:52, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)

Talk의 최근 토론 개요:앤디 응고

@Noteduck:그럼 잘됐네.Talk에서 가장 최근에 편집된 내용을 살펴보기:앤디 응고, 스프링이가 자꾸 콘텐츠 분쟁에 휘말리는구나.

  • 5월 17일, 그들은 Don't Shoot Portland에 대해 Cedar777(토크 · 기여)이 추가한 콘텐츠가 WP인지 여부에 대해 논쟁을 벌였다.앤디 응고에게 줄 선물이야.JZG(토크 · 기여)가 끼어들어 Cedar777의 내용 추가에 동의했다.기사에는 아직 남아 있다.
  • 6월 10일, 당신토마스 멍이 편파적이고 서툴다고 주장한 내용 삭제에 대해 이의를 제기했다.그때 스프링은 당신의 주장을 반박하면서 문제의 버즈피드 뉴스 기사는 편파적이며 그 진술이 WP일 수도 있다고 주장했다.또한 과도하다.당신은 또한 토마스 멍(토크 · 기여)에 대한 제3자의 논평에 이의를 제기했는데, 이 논의에서 반복적으로 사용되는 용어 의견잘못된 표현이라고 다시 주장했다.BFN 작품에 인용된 진술은 여전히 기사에 있다.
  • 같은 날, 스프링키는 WP당 몇 개의 인용구를 같은 출처에 압축한 멍의 편집을 놓고 시더777과 논쟁을 벌였다.너무 많이 바른다.그리고 나서, 그들은 느닷없이 인용된 출처를 잘못 기재한 것으로 알려진 당신의 편집사항들 중 하나를 되돌렸다고 말했다.또 다른 논쟁은 토크 페이지에서 뒤따른다. 이번에는 좀 더 오래 그리고 더 많은 당사자들과 함께.결국, 스프링키는 논쟁에서 이겼다.
  • 6월 17일, 스프링이 비자발적으로 행해진 최근 ngo 공격에 대한 취재에 관한 논의.그들은 또한 다음과 같이 주장하는 WP에 이의를 제기하였다.SomerIsland에 의한 SYNTH 추가 (토크 · 기여) 그러나 뒤집혔다.
  • 6월 19일, 당신과 스프링이 모두 관여하지 않은 토론, 후자의 이름 지정에 관한 논의.
  • 모호한 문장에 대한 6월 21일 토론.스프링이는 분명히 제기할 만한 좋은 점이 있었고, 분쟁도 거의 또는 전혀 없었다.
  • 6월 30일 RS 컨센서스에 대한 성명에서 사용된 족제비 단어관련된 논의가 시작되었다.당신은 그 단어를 자주 들르더니 [254]로 바꾸었다.이 단어 변경은 톰 리안90(토크 · 기여)이 논의를 알 자지라이라크 전쟁에 대한 대화로 전환하기 전 스프링키와는 별개로 다른 참가자들의 지지를 받았다.
  • 그게 자네와 관련된 마지막 토론이었지만, 스프링과 관련된 후속 논의는 선의로 보여서 다른 누구와도 싸우지 않는 것 같네.

요약하면, Springee는 Talk를 편집하고 있다.앤디 NGO는 이 기사에 대한 선의의 편집과 토론에 많이 관여하고 있기 때문에 많은 것을 알 수 있다.그러니 스프링의 편집은 NGO에 대한 당신의 편집을 평가할 충분한 증거가 없지만, 당신과의 상호 작용과는 별개로 논란의 여지가 없는 것이 분명하다.누군가 기록물을 평가할 수 있을지도 모르지만, 나는 지금 자러 가야 해.LaundryPizza03 (dcf) 04:26, 2021년 7월 9일 (UTC)

내 NGO가 RashingPizza03을 편집한 것을 자유롭게 보아라.나는 이 페이지에서의 증거를 엄격하게 평가하기 위한 나의 헌신의 증거로 이 같은 것을 언급하고 싶다.[255] 이 모든 것을 스프링이가 아무리 미약하더라도 NGO 페이지에 아첨하는 출처를 추가하기 위해 긴 시간 동안 싸우는 맥락에서 볼 필요가 있다.
  • 예를 들어, "Lacorte News"에서 자료를 복구하는 것에 찬성하는 스프링이의 4월 확장된 콘테스트(Fox alum Ken LaCorte와 연결된 분명하지 않은 출처)를 예로 들어보자.[256] Springee는 사용자가 가져온 조치 후 4월 말에 주제 금지를 피할 수 있게 되어 매우 운이 좋았다.Dlthewave[257]는 Springee가 지난 3~4월 Ngo 페이지에 포함된 Daily Caller[258]Daily Signal로부터 자료를 얻으려는 장기 시도를 한 후 생겨났다.[259] Although Springee had reverted material from the Daily Signal from Ngo's page in February on the (correct) basis that it wasn't an RS,[260] in March[261] and April[262] they defended Daily Signal's reliability on Ngo while rejecting WP:GREL-listed The Intercept,[263] as well as turning to other weak sources like Daily Wire, The Western JournaL, 그리고 그들의 라코르트 뉴스 포인트를 뒷받침하기 위해 "Meaww"라는 유명인 가십 사이트.[264] 5월 25일, "카투"라는 웹사이트와 매우 비부분적인 "The College Fix"를 NGO에 의해 보고된 BLM 항의의 믿을 만한 설명으로 취급하는 것이 기뻤다.[265] 이와 같은 출처를 가진 스프링이는 지나치게 과민하고 문맥을 강조하면서 원천을 전면적으로 거부하는 것에 대해 경고해 왔다.
  • 이것을 그들이 최근 롤링스톤자코뱅(매거진)에 출처한 14단어 문장 조사와 비교해 보면: 6월 18일에 그것을 되돌리고, [266] Ngo 토크 페이지[267]에서 Rolling Stone 출처가 문장의 주장을 지지하지 않았다는 사실, 명백하게 부정확한 근거[268]로 크게 도전하고, WP:[269] 6월 25일, 그리고 그들의 주장이 포괄적으로 기각된 후, NORN의 판결에 대한 논의는 이제 그 내용을 유지하는 것은 부당하다.[270] Springee가 The Intervent[271]Bellingcat에 수행한 이러한 확장된 도전(두 가지 모두 4월에만 해당)을 참조하십시오.RSN은 2020년 11월부터 Bellingcat 콘텐츠에 이의를 제기하고 [273] 6월에 철저하고 체계적인 Buzzfeed News 작품에 이의를 제기하는 등 그들의 주장을 재빨리 일축했다.[274] 위에서 언급한 몇몇 불명확한 (그리고 약한) 출처들에 비해 벨링캣데일리 닷에 대한 스프링이의 증거 표준의 엄격함을 보라[275].
더 멀리 가면 SPLC의 블록 반전을 볼 수 있다. [276][277]데일리 비스트[278]콜럼비아 저널리즘 리뷰[279]가디언, [280] 살롱(마거진)롤링스톤, [281][282][283]워싱턴 포스트로스앤젤레스 타임즈, [284][285][286]시애틀 타임즈, [287], 버즈피드 뉴스[288]데일리 도트, [289], 윌라메트 위크[290]오리건 주[291], 로스앤젤레스 타임즈[292] - 결코 완전한 목록은 아니다.는 WP의 Springee에게 반복해서 다음과 같이 상기시켰다.성공하지 못한 ROWN.Springee는 종종 BLP를 호출하여 새로운 편집을 거부하거나, "반복"을 채택한다. 즉, 편집의 되돌리기를 차단하고, 토크 페이지 토론을 시작하고, 토크 페이지의 어떤 변경사항에도 길게 저항하는 과정을 진행하면서, 변화에 대한 합의는 없다고 주장한다.분명하고 반복되는 패턴은 스프링이가 NGO에게 아첨하는 것으로 보이는 원천을 포함하기 위해 얼마나 힘겹게 싸우는 반면, 고품격일지라도, 무표정하다고 인식되는 자들은 불가능할 정도로 높은 기준을 적용받고 있다는 것이다.나는 그들이 다양한 정치적 주제에 걸쳐 동일한 편집 패턴을 따르는 것을 보았고, 2021년 7월 9일 (UTC) 08:27 (대화) 요청에 따라 더 많은 차이점을 제공하게 되어 기쁘다.
그리고 이것은 더 같은 거짓이다.당신이 "확장된 싸움"이라고 부르는 것은 스프링이가 수많은 다른 편집자들과 같은 편에 서 있는 민사적이고 길지 않은 대화 페이지 토론이었다.데일리 콜러와 데일리 시그널은 이미 AE에서 폐기되었다.Mew는 단지 좌편향적 소식통으로 오레곤주의자와 나란히 언급되었을 뿐이다.롤링스톤과 자코뱅에 대해서는 그가 옳다.전자는 진지한 뉴스 매체가 아닌 연예잡지로서 객관성을 내세우지 않고, 후자는 사회주의를 위해 공공연히 이데올로기적인 견해를 갖고 있다.그는 문맥, 적절한 비중, 그리고 다른 정책들이 중요하기 때문에 나머지 부분에 대해서는 그의 권리를 충분히 가지고 있으며, WP:BLP에서는 토론과 신중함이 매우 중요하다.그러한 많은 매체들은 또한 매우 이념적이거나 또는 데일리 비스트, 살롱, 윌라멧 위크, 데일리 닷과 같은 객관성을 목표로 하는 심각한 주류 뉴스원이 아니기 때문에 정치적 주제에 적합하지 않다.여기서 유일한 문제는 여러분과 같은 편집자들이 BLP의 출처로서 그러한 미화된 집단 블로그를 밀고 나서 동의하지 않는 편집자들을 괴롭힐 때 입니다.그것을 멈출 시간이다.교차로22:25, 2021년 7월 9일 (UTC)
부록:아래 나온 것처럼, 내가 답한 후에 Notecook은 그들의 의견을 수정했다. 내가 답한 버전은 여기 있다.교차로2021년-talk- 7월11일(UTC) 20:37, 11번 교차로
교차로, 나는 데일리 콜러/데일리 시그널 문제가 AE에서 "해제되었다"는 것에 동의하지 않는다.사실 그것은 스프링키에게 자신의 관점을 지지하는 유일한 관리자에 대한 RS/검증 가능성의 주의사항과 함께 "신뢰할 수 없는/비사용 출처에 대해 더 주의해 달라"는 주의사항과 함께 종결되었다.나는 Springee가 명백하게 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 편향된 것으로서 도전하는 동시에 너무 신뢰할 수 없는 출처를 장려하여 그들이 더 이상 사용되지 않았다는 Noteduck의 타당한 우려를 공유한다.솔직히 나는 어떻게 신실한 편집자가 매일 전화 건 사람 인용의 포함을 추진하면서 자코뱅에게 너무 편파적이어서 사용할 수 없다고 도전할 수 있는지 모르겠다.dlthewave view 19:11, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)
"매일 신고자 인용문 포함을 강요하는 것"은 무슨 일이 일어났는지 완전히 오해의 소지가 있는 그림이다. AE 보고서에 대한 설명과 반박이 거기에 설명되어 있고 나는 그것을 다시 검토하지 않을 것이다.또한 WP에서는 좌편향적 여론 매체가 대부분 녹색으로 표시되어 있는 반면, 모든 우편향적 여론 매체를 사실상의 금지 대상으로 계속 밀어붙이는 것으로는 알 수 없겠지만, "절대 모든 상황에서 그 출처를 이용하는 것에 대한 전면적인 소급적 "금지"는 아니다."RSP. 사거리-talk- 20:47, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
교차로, 그 문제에 대한 당신의 의견은 인정하지만, 다시 조사하기보다는 AE 보고서의 최종 결과를 존중해 줄 것을 부탁할 필요가 있다.여러 편집자(본인을 포함한 한 명의 관리자와 논평으로 훈계된 한 명의 관리자)는 동의하지 않았지만, 관리자들 사이의 의견 일치는 분명했다.그런 맥락에서 데일리 콜러를 사용하는 것은 부적절했고 스프링키는 그러한 출처를 더욱 주의하라는 것을 상기시켰다.결과를 어떻게 다르게 해석하는지 설명할 수 없다면 '매일신호일일신호 관련 사항은 이미 AE에서 기각되었다'고 주장할 것이고, '매일신호인용 포함을 강요했다'고발은 무슨 일이 일어났는지 심각하게 오해의 소지가 있는 그림이다.나는 또한 당신이 "좌편향 의견출처는 대부분 WP:RSP에서 녹색으로 표시되어 있는 반면 모든 우편향 의견출처는 사실상의 금지라고 계속 밀어붙이는 것으로는 알 없을"을 부적절한 주제발표로 지적해 줄 것을 요청한다.dlthewave 인터뷰 22:12, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)
Notecook, WP:REDACT(대화 페이지 가이드라인)는 다른 편집자가 답변한 후 의견을 편집하지 마십시오.만약 누군가가 당신의 원래 코멘트에 이미 답장을 했거나 인용했다면, 당신의 코멘트를 바꾸면 그들의 원래 컨텍스트를 박탈할 수 있으며, 이것은 피해야 한다.이것은 본 토론에서 일찍이 언급된 바 있다[[293.다른 편집자가 적절한 편집 마크업 없이 응답한 후 처음으로 댓글을 계속 편집하라는 질문을 받은 후(예: [[294][295]][296][[297]]).앞으로 진행되는 토크 페이지 지침을 따르십시오.Springee (대화) 12:39, 2021년 7월 10일 (UTC)
SpringeeWP에 올라온 유용한 조언에 감사한다.REDACT 정책.가 토론에 참여한 걸 알아챘다.가 어제 같은 토론에 들어간 직후인 오늘 월스트리트저널[298.[299] 물론 그렇게 하는 것은 환영하지만, 이것은 교란이나 방해로 인해 나를 피하고 싶다는 당신의 명시적인 바람과는 별로 맞지 않는다.만약 내가 편집한 것이 오래지 않아 당신을 귀찮게 하지 않는다면, 아마도 2021년 7월 11일 05:52, 05:2021 (UTC)
노탁, 공평하게 말하면, 스프링키는 실제로 당신이 프로젝트에 참여하기도 전부터 WSJ의 편집국 관련 토론 페이지에 참여해왔다.El_C 07:57, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
El_C는 실제로 그랬지만, 내가 있는 곳과 우리가 서로의 주장에 대응할 수 있는 새로운 조사와 토론에 기꺼이 참여하겠다는 스프링이의 의지는 내가 편집한 것에 의해 그들이 불편함을 느끼거나 붐비고 있다는 것을 암시하지 않는다.그런데 당신은 당신의 고소장에서 3월 25일 이후 내가 편집한 내용 중 "50% 이상"이 당신에 관한 것이라고 말했다.정확히 무슨 뜻이고 어떻게 그 수치에 도달했는가?Notecook (대화) 09:22, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
동일한 RfC에 대응하는 것은 WP가 아니다.HURKING, WP에 의해 제한되지도 않을 것이다.IBAN이 직접 반응하지 않는 한 IBAN은.나 역시 50%의 통계에 대해 궁금할 것이다. 왜냐하면 초기 소란스러운 비난들 중 일부는 Springee와 같은 토론에서 Noteuck이 언급했을 뿐이기 때문이다.dlthewave 인터뷰 16:29, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)

IMO 이 오해의 소지가 있는 구조는 상황이 어떤 것인지, 스프링이가 어느 정도 구제를 필요로 하고 있어야 마땅하다는 것을 더욱 보여준다.일부 사람들은 본질적으로 나의 "그냥 비스듬한 경고" 제안 #2가 너무 순하고 아마도 사실일 것이라고 말했지만, 이것은 그러한 안도감을 주기 위해 어떤 종류의 결론을 내릴 필요가 있다.안 되면 나중에 더 강한 걸 시도할 수 있다.북8000(대화) 12:18, 2021년 7월 9일(UTC)

저 Notecook은 1992년 이후의 미국 정치 또는 적어도 관련 BLP로부터 주제 금지를 받아야 하는가? –LaundryPizza03 (dcf) 14:06, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
나는 주제 영역에 전체적으로 혼란의 패턴이 없는 한 주제 금지가 적절할지 잘 모르겠다.우리가 여기서 논의하고 있는 비난은 스프링과 그들의 상호작용으로 한정된 것 같다.dlthewave view 16:31, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)
나도 같은 말을 하려던 참이었다.XOR'easter(대화) 16:41, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)
"더 강한 것은 나중에 시도될 수 있다"의 "무엇"에 대한 대답은 이 시점에서 추측의 문제다.그러나 주제 금지는 내가 그것을 쓸 때 생각난 것이 아니다.확실히 이 ANI 페이지에 있는 것조차도 그 상황을 강화시킨다.호통을 치는 것 외에도, 어떤 편집자도 잘못된 문자를 포함한 그러한 것들에 대한 계속적인 공격적인 공격을 견뎌야 할 필요가 없다.북8000 (대화) 20:08, 2021년 7월 11일 (UTC)
노스8000, 이 논의에서 노턱의 행동에 대해 정확히 어떤 문제가 있는지, 이러한 오성의 예를 구체적으로 들 수 있다면 당신의 논평은 더 심각하게 받아들여질 것이다.dlthewaveview 21:00, 2021년 7월 11일(UTC)
아무도 내 세심한 요약을 진지하게 받아들이지 않는다고 주장하는 것은 좋은 시작 방법이 아니다.북8000(대화) 12:14, 2021년 7월 12일(UTC)
내 평가는 어떤 항목에서 나온 것이 아니라, 여기 있는 전체 실의 개요에서 도출한 것이었다.그 개요의 한 부분은 IMO I'd improve 적어도 여기 있는 Nothuck의 게시물들 중 90%가 당면한 주제를 다루기 보다는 Springee를 비난하려고 노력해왔다고 추측할 수 있다.구체적으로는, 그러한 유형의 포스트에서 디프의 거의 모든 사용은 디프 자체에서 발생하지 않은 스프링이의 부정적인 특성화(IMO 오자)를 가지고 있었다.북8000(대화) 12:33, 2021년 7월 12일(UTC)
하나의 차이점을 지적해서 왜 그것이 잘못 표기되었는지 설명해 주시겠습니까?나는 이미 전에 아무 성공도 없이 물어본 적이 있기 때문에, 네가 실제로 어떤 예도 가지고 있지 않은 것이 아닌가 의심하기 시작한다.dlthewave view 12:48, 2021년 7월 12일(UTC)
너무 잘 되지 않는 제한된 만남에 근거해서, 나는 너와 깊은 관계를 맺지 않기로 선택했어.하지만 한 가지 구조적인 음은....나는 단지 IMO라고만 식별했다.「IMO」 한정자가 없는 그 부분에 있어서의 나의 진술은 「분열 그 자체에서 발생하지 않은 스프링이의 부정적 특성....」이었다.여러분(혹은 누구든지) 내 평가를 거부하거나 받아들이거나, 평가가 옳다고 생각하는지 그르다고 생각하는지 아닌지를 평가하기 위해 이 실마리를 풀 수 있어야 한다.북8000 (대화) 13:09, 2021년 7월 12일 (UTC)

IP 삭스

(아래 나의 게시물은 이곳으로 옮겨졌고, 제목이 Dlthewave에 의해 만들어졌다는 점에 유의하십시오.내가 그 직책의 다른 사람에 의해 제거되는 양말/이벤드 근거를 주목했지만, 나는 그 IP 상황에 대해 충분히 알지 못한다) North8000 (대화) 11:42, 2021년 7월 13일 (UTC)

69.156.107.94에 의해 입력된 게시물이 차단된 양말마다 제거되었다.는 IP가 생후 1주 반도 안 된 역사를 가지고 있으며, 그 게시물들 중 90%가 Springee를 비하하려고 시도하고 있다.Springee는 예의 바르고 정책을 의식하는 편집자로, 몇몇 개인들로부터 이런 것들을 너무 많이 받아왔다.이런 종류의 편집자 학대는 중단되어야 한다!그들은 그것의 가장 끔찍한 부분으로부터 구제를 요청했다.나는 아마도 너무 온화하지만 반드시 해야 할 조치를 제안했다!진심으로, North8000 (대화) 01:04, 2021년 7월 13일 (UTC)

그 IP 주소의 경우, 평생 6번의 수정, 2021년 7월 첫 번째 오타 수정, 그리고 6번 중 5번이 지난 이틀 동안 모두 이 페이지에 나와 Springee를 비하하려고 시도했다.북8000(대화) 11시 34분, 2021년 7월 13일(UTC)
IP 코멘트는 별도의 이슈이기 때문에 나는 이것을 그것의 하위섹션으로 옮겼는데, 그것은 Nothuck에 대한 경고/보완으로 도움을 받지 않을 것이다.Awilley가 이 상황을 처리하고 있고 통보를 받은 것 같다.dlthewaveview 02:53, 2021년 7월 13일(UTC)
미안, 내가 무승부가 너무 느렸어.양말은 SPI를 통해 차단되었다. ~Awilley (대화) 16:59, 2021년 7월 14일 (UTC)

누군가가 이것을 검토하고 결정할 수 있을까?

누군가가 이것을 검토하고 결정할 수 있을까?북8000(대화) 00:34, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)

나는 양방향 상호 작용 금지가 고려되어야 한다고 제안한다.양방향 모두 문제가 있고, 정당들이 어떤 정치적 입장을 지지하느냐는 중요하지 않다.아마도 3개월 동안 그런 금지를 하는 것으로 충분할 것이고, 그때까지 그들이 재입국할 가능성이 줄어들기를 바란다.나는 이것에 대한 이전의 반대 때문에 공식적인 마무리로서 그것을 하는 것이 아니라, 나는 그 이후 논의에서 종종 그렇듯이 양 당사자가 어느 정도 책임이 있다는 것을 분명히 했다고 생각한다.나는 상대적인 책임의 정도를 찾으려는 시도가 더 많은 반목을 부추기기 쉽다고 생각한다. DGG (토크) 00:16, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
나는 쌍방향 상호 작용 금지에 반대한다.이는 잘못된 균형일 뿐만 아니라, 내가 본 바로는 그들이 POV의 추가나 변경을 막기 위한 어떤 것도 할 수 없기 때문에 항상 더 나은 편집자를 더 벌주게 된다.여기서 Notecook에서 Springee까지의 일방통행은 말이 된다. 왜냐하면 그 호걸을 하는 사람은 Notecook이기 때문이다.교차로03-talk-:42, 2021년7월21일(UTC)
DGG 나는 그것이 매우 합리적인 제안이라고 생각한다.말할 필요도 없이 나는 크로스로스의 경합 Noteck (대화) 06:44, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)에 강하게 반대한다.

Springe는 괴롭히지 않고, Notecook은 괴롭히지 않는다.이 실 안에 있는 물질까지도 자세히/관심하게 들여다보면 양방향에서 일어나고 있는 것과 그렇지 않은 것에 대해 꽤 잘 알 수 있다.상호 작용 금지 조항이 기사에 중복된다는 점을 고려하면 복잡할 것이다.나는 노트룩에 대한 경고가 가장 좋고, 가장 적절하며, 가장 뒷받침되는 해결책이라고 생각한다.북8000 (대화) 10:08, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)

North8000 이 토론에서 노턱의 발언이 헛소리를 한다는 증거는 없다.dlthewave view 14:45, 2021년 7월 21일(UTC)
내가 한 진술과 ANI 게시물만으로 명백/범주적인 무언가가 내가 말하지 않은 과민반응이 아니어서 지푸라기라도 잡는 사람이 될 수 없다는 것이다.내가 한 말은 여기서 IMO Springee의 게시물들은 단지 소굴로부터 구제받는 것에 초점을 맞추고 있는 반면 Notecooks는 전반적으로 Springee를 비하하는 것에 초점을 맞추고 있다는 것이다.북8000 (대화) 15:04, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
그러나 우리는 사람들을 판단하거나 잘못을 바로잡기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니다.우리는 더 이상의 분쟁을 막기 위해 여기에 있다.때때로 이것은 무례하고 다른 사람들과의 향후 분쟁으로 이어질 가능성이 있는 특정한 한 사람을 제재하는 것에 초점을 맞추는 것을 의미하지만, 이것을 포함한 대부분의 대인관계 분쟁에서, 가장 간단한 방법은 당사자들을 분리하는 것이다.우리는 그것을 충분히 사용하지 않는다. DGG (토크) 18:09, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
나는 동의하지 않는다.우리는 더 이상의 논쟁을 막기 위해 여기에 있는 것이 아니다.우리는 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기에 왔다.백과사전을 만들 때 분쟁을 예방하는 것은 가능하지도 바람직하지도 않다.여기서 문제는 "분쟁이 있다"가 아니라, 그것보다 훨씬 더 깊다.단순히 분쟁이 있다고 말하면, 그래서 논쟁 중인 두 편집자가 서로 말을 할 수 없게 되어 분쟁이 종결될 것이다...백과사전을 만드는 우리의 목표를 달성하는 데 도움이 되지 않을 것이다.레비비치 01:58, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
IMHO는 편집자 한 명(스프링키)을 표적으로 삼는 것은 전반적인 임무에 해를 끼치는 유형으로, 따라서 호킹지도를 한다.그리고 IMHO가 예의바르고 높은 길을 택할 때 (다른 사람들이 포함) 그러한 목표의 지뢰밭으로 변할 수 있는 "보복"을 받게 하는 것도 우리의 사명을 해치는 유형이다.이것은 내가 생각하기에 상황을 해결할 것 같은 Notecook에 대한 가벼운 경고다.북8000(대화) 13:50, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

붉은 왕 0905

붉은 왕 0905 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

맞춤법이 잘못되었거나 대문자로 잘못 표기된 짧은 설명 수백 개 추가:

  • [300] -"프랑스 장군"..."프랑스 장군"이어야 한다.
  • [301] - "프랑스 기병대 통신원"..."프랑스 기병 사령관"이어야 한다.
  • [302] - "18세기 프랑스군과 루소-오스트로군 사이의 전투"
  • [303] - "앵글로-이리쉬 군인과 정치인"
  • [304] - "아더 웰슬리와 A 주요 포위작전의 첫 패배는 반도 전쟁 중에 싸웠다."

수많은 토크 페이지 경고, 그러나 응답 없음.

이전의 ANI 보고서는 위키백과에서 작성되었다.관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive 1069#Rapid bott(또는 미트봇) 같은 비교적 새로운 사용자에 의한 편집.

최근에 사용자 보고:Bachovan과 ANI는 유사한 "짧은 설명" 편집을 위해 여기에 있다.두 편집자는 또한 자주 방문하지 않는 장 에티엔 챔피온넷에 짧은 설명을 덧붙였다.[305][306]을 참조하십시오.감사합니다.매그놀리아677 (대화) 15:45, 2021년 7월 17일 (UTC)

Rapid bott (또는 고기봇) 같은 문구는 우리의 Dash Police를 완전히 무시하게 할 것이다.EENG 11:48, 2021년 7월 18일(UTC)
(비관리자 논평) WP:숏DESC는 백과사전에 가치를 더하는 정말 유용한 아이디어다.나르키 블러트 (대화) 18:31, 2021년 7월 17일 (UTC)
"라틴 알파벳과 달리, 스크립트는 문자 케이스의 개념이 없다." 피트 AU aka --셔츠58 (토크) 10:52, 2021년 7월 18일 (UTC)
나는 이 토론에 참여하지는 않았지만, 위의 내용을 우연히 발견했고 "스크립트?"가 궁금했다."?" 나는 위에 소개된 위키리크스를 따라 데바나가리에게 갔다. 나는 글쓰기 시스템의 사례 차이가 이것과 무슨 관련이 있는지 알지 못한다. 그리고 그것에 대한 호기심에 별로 사로잡혀 있지 않다. (아마도 그것은 나에게 명백해야 할 것이다) 하지만 나는 다른 사람들이 궁금해 할 경우에 대해 언급할 것이라고 생각했다.Wtmitchell (대화) (이전 보라카이 법안) 11:58, 2021년 7월 18일 (UTC)
  • 하지만 우리가 통신할 수 없는 또 다른 안드로이드 앱 편집기.레비비치 15:24, 2021년 7월 18일(UTC)
    • 왜 우리는 사용자가 사이트를 완전히 사용할 수 없도록 하는 앱을 가지고 있는가?헉, 데스크톱 모드를 사용하여 휴대폰으로 편집할 수 있는데, 왜 앱이 있는 거야?이것은 주간 고속도로에서 빅 세발자전거를 허용하는 것과 유사하다.그것은 그 일에 적합하지 않고 단지 다른 모든 사람들에게 문제를 일으킬 뿐이다. --Khajidha (대화) 15:54, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
      • 수사적인 질문에 대답할 위험을 무릅쓰고 페이지 감시자들은 사실 이것에 대한 해답이 있다는 것을 알고 싶어할 것이다: 그것은 WMF가 연구를 했고 모바일 앱 편집자들이 의사소통을 할 수 없음에도 불구하고 다른 편집자들보다 더 높은 비율로 되돌리지 않는다는 것을 발견했기 때문이다.따라서, WMF는, 통신이 실제로 필요한 것은 아니기 때문에, 앱의 통신 기능이 완전히 작동하지 않더라도 앱이 존재하도록 허용한다고 결론지었다.위키백과 참조:마을 펌프 (WMF)#여기 우리가 가지고 있는 것은 더 많은 세부사항(그리고 거기에 링크된 모든 팸 티켓)을 위해 의사소통을 하지 못하는(그냥 연락할 없는 일부 모바일 편집기)이다.이것은 수탁자 선거의 쟁점이다. 여기서 질문 #47과 후보자의 답변을 참조하라. 나는 WMF 직원에게 이것과 다른 예산 고려사항에 대한 정보를 요청해 왔다.레비비치 16:01, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
        • 말도 안 돼."우리는 다른 사람들과 하는 것보다 더 이상 그들과 이야기할 필요가 없으니, 그들과 대화하는 것을 더 어렵게 만들자"는 것은 분별 있는 대답이 아니다.모바일 앱 편집자가 다른 편집자와 같은 비율로 되돌아간다면 여전히 다른 편집자와 같은 수준의 커뮤니케이션이 필요한 것 같다. --Khajidha(토크) 14:26, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
          궁금해서 누가 앱 개발을 맡았지?이것은 지금쯤 그들이 해결해야 할 문제인 것 같다. 시각장애 (대화) 15:26, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)
          좋은 질문이야, 내가 알아내려고 했던 질문이야.제품 부서인데, 그들이 그것에 얼마나 많은 자원을 쓰고 있는지(사람/돈으로 볼 때) 또는 사람과 달러가 충분한지 아닌지는 잘 모르겠다. (생산량 기준으로 볼 때, 충분하지 않다고 가정한다.)과거에 앱에 얼마나 많은 자원을 투입했는지, 아니면 올해 앱에 얼마나 많은 자원을 투입할 계획인지 모르겠다.궁극적으로 이러한 결정은 WMF 수탁자가 선정한 WMF CEO에게 보고하는 WMF 직원이 결정한다.그래서 메타에서 위의 링크에 있는 질문들을 계속 물어봤지...그리고 비슷한 호기심이 있던 사람들이 저쪽에서 대화에 동참해 주면 좋겠으니, WMF에 대해 더 많은 정보를 달라고 귀찮게 하는 것은 나뿐만 아니라 다른 편집자 몇 명이 아니다 :-) 레비비치 16:06, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)

심스위키아로버19

심스는 거의 확실해WikiaLover19는 장기 학대자의 속편이다.내 말은, 누군가가 "심즈", "위키아", "연인" 그리고 "19"를 자신의 이름으로 가지고 있고 그들이 선택할 수 있는 모든 사용자들의 토크 페이지의 내 토크 페이지에 메시지를 남길 확률은 얼마인가?내가 선의로 행동할 필요는 있지만, 나는 이 사용자가 완전히 무죄일 확률은 매우 작다고 생각한다.특히 내가 지난 며칠 동안 이미 개의 양말 퍼펫을 먹은 것을 보면 나는 내 토크 페이지에 짜증난다. - C.Syde (토크 기여) 22:39, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)

C.Syde65 사건 시작 @WP:SPI, 하지만 당신이 마스터라고 의심하는 편집자와 계정을 연결시킬 만한 증거가 별로 없다.SimsWikiaLover19는 단 한 번의 편집만 했을 뿐 필터 로그는 비어 있다.Jerm (대화) 00:48, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)
그래, 그래도 여전히 의심스러워 보이긴 해내가 심스위키와 팬덤에서 활동하고 있다는 것을 그들은 분명히 알고 있기 때문이다.그리고 그들은 2014년에서 15년 사이의 한 장기 학대자가 사용한 숫자인 "19"를 선택했다.그 특정 사용자가 2016년 이후로 내 지식에는 적극적이지 않지만, 나는 이 사용자가 사용자 이름을 선택할 때 2014년부터 15년까지 사용자로부터 영감을 얻었다고 확신한다.- C.Syde(대화 기여) 02:44, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
위키백과:Sockpuppet 조사/Bucktony?사용자 C.Syde10(토크 · 기여)은 위키백과를 만들었다.Sockpuppet 조사/C.앞서 2017년 알려진 벅토니의 양말이 만든 시데65.그리고 벅토니는 심즈 주제 영역에서도 파괴되었다.LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:31, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)

유지 관리 템플릿 추가, 태그가 지정된 항목에 대한 논의 거부사용자 Andrzejbanas.

기사 Quique(앨범)에서 infobox 1 2 2 3의 "genre" 파라미터를 완전히 블랭킹하기 위해 반복적으로 여러 번 편집한 후, User:Andrzejbanas6월 28일에 토론하기 위해 매개변수에 태그를 붙였다.그들은 그것을 수정하고 싶다고 말했다.그 이후로 기사의 토크를 통해 그들은 단순히 그들이 태그한 이슈에 대한 논의를 피하거나 완전히 거절했다.나는 그들에게 정리 템플릿의 목적을 여러상기시켰다.나는 3주 동안 그들이 이 작은 Infobox 리스트에 만들고 싶은 변화에 대한 논의를 그들에게서 이끌어내려고 노력해왔다.그러나 반복적으로 템플릿을 다시 삽입했음에도 불구하고, 그들은 그들이 태그한 항목에 대한 어떠한 논의도 거절한다.나는 편집자에게 관련 WP를 가리켰다.CleanuptagWP:노디스 클레임들우리는 그들이 태그를 추가한 지 3주가 지났고, 메시지에 응답했음에도 불구하고 그들이 태그한 이슈에 대한 토론에 참여하려는 모든 시도는 거절이나 회피에 직면해 있다.차이:

편집자는 3주 전에 인포박스에 대한 제안된 변경사항을 포함하지 않은 텍스트의 벽을 게시했다.
나는 안드르제바나스의 요약에서 하나를 제안했다.그들은 반대를 표명하지 않았지만 어쨌든변화를 되돌렸다.
나는 편집자가 인포박스의 변화에 대해 어떤 점이 문제가 있다고 생각했는지 물었다.그들은 질문을 무시하고 기사 본문에 대해 이야기한다.
나는 그들이 인포박스에 어떤 변화를 보길 원하는지, 즉 그들이 태그한 것을 다시 묻는다.그들은 제안된 변경사항이 있다고 말하지만 공유하기를 거부한다.
그들이 어떤 장르를 바꾸고 싶은지 다시 묻는다.편집은 계속하지만 토론은 무시하기 때문에 나는 그들의 제안을 요청하고 태그의 목적을 지적한다.그들은 그것을 논의하고 있다고 주장한다(또한 그들이 반복적으로 infobox 파라미터를 태깅했음에도 불구하고 그것이 무엇인지 모른다고 주장한다).
나는 그들에게 그들이 태그한 이슈에 대해 다시 토론할 것을 요청한다.그들은 거절한다.이러한 현실 부정을 지적하기 위한 모든 시도("나는 그것을 논의하고 있지만, 그리고 나서 토론하는 것을 거부하는 것")는 대화와 관련된 비현실적인 템플릿과 거의 부딪친다.Andrzejbans는 또한 문제가 발생했다고 주장하는데, 내가 앞서 메시지에서 그 문제는 그들이 토론하기 위해 태그한 측면에 대해 토론하기를 거부하는 것이라고 매우 명백했음에도 불구하고, 약 3일 동안 답변하지 않았기 때문이다.

확실히 말하면, 나는 인포박스가 있는 그대로 괜찮다고 생각한다.그러나 내가 편집자에게 분명히 말했듯이, 나는 변화에 대해 토론하고 실행하는 것에 전적으로 열려 있다(나는 심지어 그들이 선택한 몇몇 출처의 요약에서 그들에게 한 가지를 제안하기도 했다.이 편집자는 기사의 정리 태그를 무기한으로 유지하고, 회피하거나 완전히 거부하는 메시지로 응답할 시간을 찾음에도 불구하고 그들이 태그한 내용에 대해 토론하는 것을 피하고 싶어 하는 것 같다.유지 관리 템플릿이 페이지의 반영구적인 특징이나 "치욕의 악감정"으로 존재하지 않으며, 페이지의 한 측면을 태그한 후, 최소한 태그 편집자는 실질적인 논의를 통해 끝까지 따라가야 한다는 점을 사용자에게 상기시켜 주는 것을 고맙게 생각한다.카미랄 단풍 21:30, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)

우리가 결론에 이르지 못했기 때문에, 나는 이 같은 편집자와 함께 태그를 제거하지 말라고 말했다.그들은 그들의 토크 페이지를 편집하는 것을 금지해왔고, 주제에 대한 지칠 줄 모르는 연구를 게시한 후, 나는 완전히 지쳤고 정보를 다시 정리하기 전에 휴식이 필요했다.이것은 그 토크 페이지에서 분명히 드러났다.그들은 계속해서 꼬리표를 떼었고 내가 어떤 규칙을 어겼는지 물었을 때, 결코 정답을 받지 못했다.사용자에게 WP를 준수하지 않음:Civil 및 일정 기간 동안 4번 이상 유지 관리 태그를 제거했다.나는 이쪽에서 따돌림과 장르-워리어에 대해 강등감을 느끼고 있는데, 이렇게 비협조적인 사람과 더 빨리 일하도록 격려하는 것은 아니다.안제이바나스 (대화) 22:41, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
기록에 더하여, 나는 이 기사에 대한 더 많은 합의를 얻기 위해 몇몇 위키백과 주제에 손을 뻗었다(WP:대체 음악, WP:전자 음악 및 WP:앨범) 더 많은 사람을 얻기 위해.이 사용자가 들어오기 전에 장르를 비워두고 GA 지위를 넘겼다.나는 이 글을 진지하게 받아들이고 규칙을 따르려고 노력했다.Outisde는 이 사용자 인내심 내에서 실행되지 않아, 내가 정말 무엇을 잘못했는지 모르겠어.안제이바나스 (대화) 22:46, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
예상외로 이 편집자는 계속해서 그들의 서사에 맞게 간단히 꾸며내고 있다.우리가 결론을 내리지 못한 것은 사실이다. 왜냐하면 편집자는 그들이 태그한 항목의 변경에 대해 토론하기를 거부하기 때문이다.기사에 대해 그들은 "어떤 규칙"에 반대하는지 물었을 때, 관련 내용 가이드라인에 대한 링크와 함께 답변이 주어졌다.그들은 직접적으로 반응하지는 않았지만, 그들만의 대화로 응답했다. 특별히 위키 규칙을 지적해 달라는 것이다. 어느 쪽인가?안드르제즈바나스의 주장과는 달리, 인포박스는 파라미터를 공백으로 만들려는 움직임을 보이기 전에 10주 동안 안정적이었고, 나는 대략 1년 동안 페이지를 편집하지 않았다.카미랄 단풍 23:08, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
당신은 아무도 재촉하려 하지 않는다고 말하지만, 그 다음엔 템플릿을 없애고 여러 번(3일 등) 답장을 하지 않았다고 말한다.사물의 상태나 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 묻지 않고 그냥 제거하면 된다.그리고 그 전에 그 기사는 몇 년 동안 안정적이었고, 장르가 없는 GA 리뷰를 통과했다.그리고 당신은 WP의 어떤 부분을 말하는지 말하지 않았다.노디스 클라임퍼스 내가 여기서 탈출할 거야안제이바나스 (대화) 23:25, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
더 많은 것들을 만들어내고.사흘을 언급한 것은 너지 내가 아니었다.내가 말하는 당신으로부터의 토론 부족은 내가 몇번이고 분명히 말했듯이 3주의 기간을 넘겼다.유지보수 템플릿을 잘못 사용하는 문제에 대해 여러 번 설명(위에서 설명)했다.관련 WP도 살펴보십시오.TM/DISP. 카미랄 단풍 23:32, 2021년 7월 19일(UTC)
두 분 모두 전쟁을 멈추겠다고 약속할 시간이 남아 있을 겁니다. 전쟁 편집 정책의 시행을 피하기 위해서요.최근의 반전은 WP:3RRNO에 따른 결과로부터 면제되지 않는다.이것은 전형적인 장기 편집 전쟁이다.공동 대응은 양당 모두를 차단하는 것이다.너희 둘 사이에는 지금까지 14번 정도 되돌릴 수 있다.에드존스턴 (대화) 23:50, 2021년 7월 19일 (UTC)
(비관리자 논평)카메라 옐로잉 나는 단지 왜 기사 토크 페이지에서 장르를 추가하려고 시도했다가 되돌아간 다른 편집자들을 ping하는 것을 고려하지 않았는지 이해할 수 없다.그렇게 되면 더 쉽게 공감대가 형성되지 않았을까.JBchrchtalk 00:01, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)
@EdJohnston – 공정한 논평.나는 이 템플릿의 포함에 대한 전쟁을 즉각 중단할 것을 약속한다.분쟁이 발생할 때, 분쟁 템플릿이 있든 없든 간에, 편집자들이 이 문제를 논의할 것으로 예상된다.이 논쟁은 안드르제즈바나스가 말한 인포박스를 변경하려는 욕구에 의해 야기된다.[307][308][309][310][311][312][313][314]와 이 논의를 진행하려고 한 경우가 여기에 있다.그들은 어떤 논의에도 참여하지 않았고, 몇 번이나 간단히 거절했다.
사용자:JBchrch I ping the most few editor, I think.나는 선거 운동으로 고발되고 싶지 않다.캐미컬 단풍 ❧ 00:13, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)
만약 당신이 사람들에게 체중을 재라고 요구하는 것이라면 그것은 캔버스화 되는 것이 아니다.그들에게 당신 편을 들라고 할 필요는 없고, 내가 위키프로젝트에 대해 물어볼 때처럼 요청된 코멘트를 요청하기만 하면 된다.안제이바나스 (대화) 00:24, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC)
아니, 투표용지 쌓기: 알려진 의견을 바탕으로 선택된 사용자에게 메시지를 게시하는 것은 부적절한 형태의 선거운동으로 간주된다.나 또한 현상에 대해 완벽히 만족한다.변화에 대해 토론하게 되어 기쁘다(그리고 입증된 바와 같이 그들에게 매우 개방적이다).Andrzejbanas는 또한 그들이 의견을 모으기 위해 이용할 수 있는 방법들을 자유롭게 사용할 수 있다.그 페이지에 분쟁 템플릿을 장기간 방치하고 태그가 붙은 이슈에 대한 논의를 거부하는 것은 그것들 중 하나가 아니다.카미랄 단풍 ❧ 00:50, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)
다음과 같은 사실이 아니라면 정정할 수 있어 기쁘다.장르를 바꾸려고 노력한 모든 편집자들에게 그들의 기고가 한 가지 방식으로만 흘러가는 것처럼 보이더라도, 당신이 모든 편집자들에게 알려준다면, 그것은 봉테스타킹/칸바싱이 아닐 것이라고 생각한다.가정적으로 받아들일 수 없는 것은 편집자들이 인지한 의견에 근거하여 편집자들을 선정하는 것이다.다른 문제들에 대해, 나는 당신 둘 다 책임이 있다고 생각한다, 안드르제즈바나스가 온화한 WP를 보여준 것에 대해서.자신의 태도와 다소 화를 낸 너.JBchrch talk 09:11, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)

안드르제바나스는 계속해서 전쟁을 편집하고 있다.그들이 태그한 이슈에 대한 논의의 흔적은 없다.카미랄 단풍 11:31, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)

안드르제바나스는 일주일 동안 그 페이지를 차단했다.의논하기 더 쉽다.케임브리지베이날씨, 우카크투크(토크), 훌리바 12:33, 2021년 7월 20일(UTC)
왜 이런 일이 일어났는지 확실하지 않아. 내가 왜 토론을 더하고 싶었는지 바로 여기에 대답했거든.Cammival Yellowing은 내가 토론을 하지 않았다고 말한 것은 거짓이며, 나는 실제로 그들이 몇 번이나 제거했던 것을 되돌리고 있고, 토론을 위한 템플릿 제거가 왜 잘못된 것인지에 대해 아직 충분히 설명하지 못하고 있다.안제이바나스 (대화) 12시 55분, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC)
그러나 다시 한번 당신의 논평에는 당신의 논쟁이 무엇인지, 당신이 infobox에 대해 가지고 있는 문제가 무엇인지, 혹은 어떤 변화가 문제를 해결할 것인지에 대한 언급이 없었다. 대신에 당신은 계속 진행중인 토론이 있다고 거짓으로 진술한다. 앞 문장에서 말했음에도 불구하고 나는 어떤 것도 토론하고 싶지 않다. 내가 논의하지 않았다고 진술한 Cammiral Yelling이 거짓이라는 주장은 이미 위의 다른 의견들에 의해 신빙성이 없다. Cammival leafs❧ 13:09, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC)
당신과 내가 다시 논의로 돌아간다는 것을 어떻게 말해야
할지
모르겠다.
만약 그렇지 않다면, 그것은 무엇인가?
간단한 편집 내역은 우리가 매일 왔다 갔다 하고 있다는 것을 보여준다.
생각 @Cambridge
날씨:
?
Andrzejbanas (대화) 13:18, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC)
섹션의 제목을 보면 "태그된 항목에 대해 토의하기를 거부함"
이라고 되어 있는
을 알 수
있다.
문제는 당신이 태그한 것으로 추정되는 문제에 대한 토론의 부족이지 토론을 거부하는 당신의 메시지 스트림이 아니다.
당신이 태그한 것을 논의하기 위해 당신의 입장에서 계속 거절하는 것은 토론이 아니다.
이것은 이미 상세하게 검토되었다.
Cammival
leafs❧
13:24, 2021년 7월 20일
(
UTC)
는 믿을 수 없을
정도로 모호한,
가지 논의점을 만들었다는 것을 발견한다.
나는 네가 조건을 어기는 것 같은 기분이 든다.
그럼에도 불구하고, 문제 해결책이 없기 때문에 템플릿 제거는 잘못된 것이었다.
태그에 문제가 있었다면, 상황에 맞는 다른 문제를 제안하고, 내 토론이 부족한 것이 문제라면, 쉽게 핑핑을 하거나 내 토크 페이지에 무슨 일이 있는지 물어 볼 수 있을 것이다(그리고 당신은 그것이 토론이라고 수십 번을 물어봤고, 나는 대답했고, 단지 당신이 개인적으로 만족하지 않는다고 해서 무엇을 기대하는지는 잘 모르겠다.
답신을 드렸다.) 안드르제즈바나스 (대화) 13:42, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC) 내가
당신의 토크 페이지
[
315][316]
충분한 경고 이상의 것을 주었고, 당신이 태그한 것에 대한 토론이 부족
하여 그
문제에 대한 상세한 설명
을 한
것은
알고
있을
것이다.
[317] 또한 내가 이곳에 글을 올리기 전에 두 차례에 걸쳐 당신에게 ping을 했다는 것을 알고, 당신의 논쟁이나 원하는 변화가 무엇인지 알고 싶어한다는 것을 알고 있다.
그때마다 당신의 반응은 "논의하고 있다" "가져가겠다"는 식의 어떤 변화를 원하는지에 대한 언급을 피하는 것이었다.
Cambiral
leafs❧
14:05, 2021년 7월
20일 (
UTC)
당신
은 내
진술을 문맥에 맞지
않게 받아들이고
있다.
나는 너와 상의하고 있어, 나는 나의 대안을 제시하지 않았어.
안제즈바나스 (대화) 14:19, 2021년 7월 20일 (UTC)
안드르제바나스, 너는 돌벽이 있는
같다.
"대안 해결책"을 제공하거나 아니면 그 문제를 완전히 포기하십시오.
당신먹여 살리는 :Bite 17:16, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
편집자를 다루는데 어려움을 겪었는데
,
이것은 내가 앞으로 나아가도록 정확히
격려하지
못한다.
그들은 심지어 한 달이 지난 지금, 내가 내 제안서를 작성하면, 그들은 해결책으로 그것에 관심이 없다고 나에게 말했어.
이 사이트에서는 쉽게 소진될 수 있으며, 이는 @HandThatFeeds:
Andrzejbanas (대화) 21:34, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC) a
diff는 이것
을 더
믿을
수 있게
만들 것이다. 그러나 나
는 이
조작된 주장에 대해 아무것도 쓰지 않았기 때문에 당신은 그것을 제공
할 수
없을 것이다.
위키피디아를 만들려고 여기 온 것처럼 점점 작아지고 있다.
카미알 단풍 22:15, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
는 이
안드르즈
가 단지
소스를 제공한다고 해도 누구에게나 곤욕을 주기 위해
것이라고 생각한다.
그가 거의 모든 기사에 대해 차단되지 않은 것이 놀랍다.
출처가 자신의 서사에 맞지 않으면 아무리 출처가 좋아도 그냥 일반 사용자에게 계속 곤욕을 치르게 된다 47.147.70.139(토크) 19:09, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
나는 이 토론이 진척되지 않고 있고, 그렇게 하는데 엄청난 양의 텍스트를 소비하고 있는 것처럼 보이므로, 이 토론이 본 궤도에 다시 오르도록 기사 토크 페이지에 제안을 추가했다.BubbaJoe123456 (대화) 16:03, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)

새로운 사용자의 명백한 CIR/반달리즘 문제

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.


User:Afternoon씨는 총 32번의 편집을 하였는데, 대부분 수정 내용을 되돌렸다.오늘 나는 그들이 밥 케리의 BLP에 그가 뉴욕 시장이라고 거짓으로 쓴 편집을 되돌렸다.그들은 대화 페이지에서 비파괴적 편집에 대해 여러 번 경고를 받았다.내가 이 문제를 여기에 가져오도록 설득한 것은 그들이 밋 롬니의 BLP를 사용자 페이지에 베꼈다는 것을 보았을 때였다.NightHeron (대화) 17:34, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)

사용자 페이지는 미트 롬니의 매력이 없는 카피였다.그래서 저작권 침해로 삭제했다.Mjroot (대화) 17:51, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
닌자 로보트 해적에게 외설되었다.볼일 다 끝났어요.Mjroot (대화) 17:54, 2021년 7월 21일 (UTC)
최근 밋 롬니의 기사 사본을 사용자 페이지에 가지고 있는 한 사용자를 우연히 만났는데, 이 사람이 아니었다.무슨 일이야?Girth Summit (blether) 18:11, 2021년 7월 21일(UTC)
찾음 - DragoWinsInRuserRocky의 삭제된 버전 참조IV. 조지 W. 롬니 편집에서도 이상한 부분이 겹친다.내가 차단했어, SPI를 올려서 다른 잠자는 사람이 있는지 알아볼 거야.Girth Summit (blether) 11:03, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자에 의한 개인 공격:더라이온하스인스턴트

편집자는 나를 금지시켜야 한다는 취지의 발언을 하는 등 인신공격을 거듭해 왔다.내가 편집한 내용은 모두 선의였지만 사용자는 나의 편집에 적대적인 동기를 부여했다.토크:State_church_of_the_Loman_Empire DeusImperator (토크) 20:15, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)

안녕, 내 변명으로, 나는 다른 좀 더 경험이 많은 위키피디아의 중재와 함께 목록에 있는 토크 페이지에 따라 평화적으로 협력하기로 동의했다.네가 금지될 자격이 있다고 말한 적은 없지만 WP인 것 같다.차단하기 위한 전제조건이 적용되어 온 안건 푸시.그러나, 금지는 위키피디아가 취하는 조치들 중 가장 극단적인 것이며, 그것은 극단적인 것을 의미한다. - TheLionHasSisned (토크) 20:28, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)
어젠다 푸셔를 차단한 다음 나를 어젠다 푸셔라고 부르는 거야?그게 무슨 의제야?편향이라고 비난하셨는데, 그 편견이 대체 어디에 있는 겁니까?당신의 즉각적인 비난은 내가 단지 인용된 작업에 적합하게 기사를 가져왔을 뿐이라고 편집에 언급했을 때 나를 악의적인 편집으로 몰아붙였다.또한, 당신의 진술로 입증된 가톨릭 편집에 적개심을 가지고 있다는 것은 논의에서 명백하다.는 그들이 "니케 기독교를 로마 제국의 국교로 인정한" "가톨릭을 인정한" 오래된 텍스트를 취소했을 때 크게 놀랐다."; 기고자들은 공격적으로 되돌렸으며, 기고자에 대한 조사 결과, 로마 가톨릭 신자로 보이는 데살로니카 칙령도 마찬가지였습니다.DeusImperator(대화) 20:43, 2021년 7월 22일(UTC)
At this rate, I have no further response toward you. I do not have the ability to block anyone; I merely assisted in doing so for others who pushed agendas on Horn of Africa-related articles, per example. I did not verbatim state you were pushing an agenda, rather implied (or have attempted to imply, judge however you will) your actions constitute a possibility of it. How can I have hostility, when I am Catholic by the way? I may not be a Traditionalist Catholic, but I am Catholic. Also, bear in mind there's a thing called conflict of interest. Good day. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
DeusImperator, 나는 sysop이 아니지만, 만약 TheLion HasSinceed가 너를 "편향된" 혹은 "agenda pusher"라고 부른다면, 그것은 일반적으로 인신공격보다 캐스팅 질타를 받을 것이다. 나는 여기서 그것이 상승하거나 인신공격으로 분류될 정도로 끔찍한 것을 보지 않는다.Celestina007 (대화) 20:49, 2021년 7월 22일 (UTC)
Where is anything in my edits which can be construed as pushing an agenda? Where? What is the evidence for making such a claim? What actions can be construed as evidence of this possibility? Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. if you claim to be "catholic" is there not a conflict of internet on your own part? Given that you are editing pages that are related to Orthodoxy are you, yourself, not in a conflict of interest? What exactly is the evidence for your claim of agenda pushing? DeusImperator (talk) 21:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
This is quite hilarious now; you continue to have arguments pertaining to the defense of Roman Catholicism alone according to your contributions, regardless of the faith given; some, apparently, have also been through apparent insults and "ALL CAPS". Pertaining to pages relating to Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy, if there was a conflict of interest my contributions would have been reverted and cast aside ages ago. Several administrators and seasoned Wikipedians assist me in contributing to Wikipedia the proper way. I have stated in the talk page for that state church, a balanced approach must be presented without the jargon from the East (Constantinople) and West (Rome). Your argument is poor, and I refuse to continue going in a merry-go-round with you; consider yourself ignored until an administrator assists. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 21:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
"This is quite hilarious now; you continue to have arguments pertaining to the defense of Roman Catholicism alone according to your contributions." Where is any evidence to make this claim? My most recent edit, which you attempted to overturn, was the inclusion of Oriental Orthodoxy and the Churches of the East. DeusImperator (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

To the Admins, this editor has repeatedly accused me of pushing an agenda, conflict of interest, and bias, without any demonstratable evidence of such and continues to do so as evidenced in this exchange. DeusImperator (talk) 21:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Any recently active administrators, please intervene. They will not stop here, nor on the talk page for State church of the Roman Empire. I gave them warning I am ignoring them, and I continue to be responded to and directed toward after verbatim telling them twice on that talk page. Nihonjoe, Liz, Paul Erik, any recently active administrator; I have grown irate at this moment. They do not persist to stop even when asked to be left alone. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 21:53, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
the only harassment here has been from that editor. The only time I edit is when I am researching for my own book research a subject and find a glaring error in an article. For my own book research, I try to find the cited source in the articles and read the cited material. It seems that I have stepped on the editor's toes editing pages that are of interest to the Orthodox and it appears the user is in fact Orthodox from the edit history of the user and appears to push an Orthodox perspective. Hence the reversions of my edits. Perhaps, it was the reason the edits of inclusion 'rivals' to the Orthodox such as the Oriental Orthodox and Churches of the East were reverted by him. DeusImperator (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Catchpoke

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Broken off from another section

I am unsure if this is relevant, but user:Firejuggler86 made a revert clearly in retaliation of my comment here. Catchpoke (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

These edits by Catchpoke were recently discussed at [318] There's a lot of IDHT involved in bringing it up here. Geogene (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
My intent is not to bring up my behavior; my intent is to note user:Firejuggler86's behavior. Catchpoke (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
See WP:BOOMERANG. EEng 00:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Since Catchpoke had the poor judgment to inject himself into ANI, I think it's time to find out whether they can show they understand the concerns expressed by other editors at the discussion linked by Geogene. If not, I think a very simply topic ban is in order: Catchpoke is not to make any edit in any way involving the word "etymology" (or its variants: "etymological", "etymologically", etc.), nor any edit related to word or phrase meanings, denotations, connotations, implications, intimations, or origins, broadly construed. EEng 00:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Pedantry against consensus is behavior that needs to be nipped in the bud. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:36, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support I very much support EEng's suggestion. Catchpoke is on some sort of campaign, based on the sort of "faux precision" typical of non-native speakers, to replace anything about the origin of a name, expression, or anything else; of course "etymology" is a good word, but it has specific connotations of the lexical origin of a word through different languages. Much worse, Catchpoke is edit-warring against the opposing consensus, and engaging in other non-cooperative behavious like user talk page blanking. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I had intended that we observe the ritual waiting period, during which Catchpoke could express some mea culpa, before the tar-and-feathering got underway. EEng 09:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
    But the tar will be cold by then. Levivich 12:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
    And let me guess: we're out of propane. EEng 21:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
    Been working late, used lots of gas lighting. Levivich 22:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
    Levivich, I mean it when I say that your wit is close on to Wildean. EEng 06:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else’s opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." Levivich 13:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
    Great quote! I'm going to add it to my user page! EEng 14:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
    hypocritesCatchpoke (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose I've stopped making section name changes. I've used MOS:SECTIONSTYLE and MOS:NOBACKREF as edit summaries at times which I felt were appropriate. I disagree with user:Imaginatorium's definition of etymology. I consider it to cover all nouns and feel it is the appropriate word to use instead of "Origin of the term" or "Origin of the name". If people disagree, I am willing to reengage at [319]. Catchpoke (talk) 13:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
    A little late for that; at this point you'll need to reeengage right here. Let's start with I consider it to cover all nouns and feel it is the appropriate word to use instead of "Origin of the term" or "Origin of the name". Do you recognize that a half-dozen experienced editors have told you that your campaign is inappropriate and disruptive, that at this point it does not matter what you think, and that if you do it again you're going to be blocked? Yes or no? EEng 20:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
You are wrong and this is also wrong. I will in engage right here. All of the support votes right now are involved editors. I posted a request for an outside opinion at [320]. User:Kwamikagami opines that my behavior is pedantic even when he, User:Veverve, and User:Bermicourt all agree that "etymology" is correct. If you look at WP:RM, article titles are debated for accuracy's sake. A section's title is a "subarticle". Are you saying people who volunteer there are being pedantic? Because if you are, that would be hypocritical. This isn't pedantic, it's a matter of accuracy. "A section headed ==Origin of the term==, in the article Silver Age of Comic Books, does not "redundantly refer back to the subject of the article", as SECTIONSTYLE warns against, because the subject of that article is the Silver Age of Comic Books, not the phrase Silver Age of Comic Books. Now cut it out.": understood.Catchpoke (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I did not agree that 'etymology' is correct. At best it would seem to be pushing it. Words mean what they're used to mean, and AFAICT 'etymology' is not used for this meaning. I might change my mind if you were to provide evidence that the word "etymology" is commonly used for the history of proper names that are transparent phrases. (As far as I can see, you haven't provided any evidence. Correct me if I missed something.) But your claim that "etymology" should be used because it's "correct" is specious even if it is correct: "the origin of the name" is *also* correct. So this wouldn't be a matter of correcting an error, but of a stylistic preference. Even if 'etymology' is used as you claim it is, I suspect that most readers will find "the origin of the name" to be a more legible way of presenting the article. — kwami (talk) 03:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
You are being pedantic. Gaslighting linked above uses "etymology". Both uses are correct. "Etymology" is correct and is a style issue. This should be discussed on WP:MOS so that we can standardize section names. Sorry for the trouble I've caused.Catchpoke (talk) 03:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Despite my fundamentally vicious and unforgiving nature, I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for you because I can see that you're really trying to contribute and don't get at all why this is happening. I earnestly hope you can find other areas ways to contribute to the project, and a year from now you'll understand what we've failed to make you understand over these past few days. I mean it when I say: good luck. EEng 04:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Propose three month restriction to articles containing the word entomology if consensus be reached. Otherwise...
Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 17:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Here's where I either wait three days then say <sound of crickets>, or I point out that the entomology article opens with an etymology – Entomology (from Ancient Greek ἔντομον (entomon) 'insect', and -λογία (-logia) 'study of') – so I fear we'd be right back in the same boat. EEng 20:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Ok, then, my final suggestion is eschatology. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 05:47, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
When hell freezes over. EEng 21:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
It did for Usenet fora, leaving a frozen lake of spam. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 04:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose I make very similar edits for very similar reasons, and can use all the help I can get. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The user gets questioned about their editing and pretty much says, "No, you're wrong!" [321] [322] [323] [324] Your competence is required here. – The Grid (talk) 03:37, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support (involved, as I was the first to object to these edits). Catchpoke's reactions throughouit, including here, show he still thinks he was entirely correct, despite a growing pile of editors disagreeing. A topic ban is in order. Johnbod (talk) 12:16, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Unfortunately, it seems obvious that being "correct" will prevent this editor from recognizing consensus. As such, I think a narrow sanction like the one proposed is necessary. Happy Friday. Dumuzid (talk) 13:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
    The more entirely correct editors are disenfranchised from the consensus-building community, the less correctly consensus will turn out, you know. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
To paraphrase an aphorism, consensus is the worst possible way to build an encyclopedia, with the exception of all the other possibilities. Both approaches here seem reasonable to me, so I will go with consensus, and those who at least pay some sort of attention thereto. Reasonable minds may differ, of course. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Aye, for now, they may. But I don't need to tell you a universal united union of uniformity and unapartment is on the horizon. We all see it coming already, together. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Unapartment doesn't appear to be a word, which seems a shame, actually. EEng 18:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Hence my edit summary. Literally, deal with it. You, the reader! InedibleHulk (talk) 18:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm afraid I remain unable to digest your Inedible post. EEng 04:19, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Support. Actually Catchpoke has misunderstood me in suggesting I unequivocally support his view. What I said (at Talk:Weser Renaissance was that "I'm inclined to agree given the definition of the etymology of a word (and surely by extension, a phrase) is 'its origin and development throughout history'". However, that was only an initial tentative conclusion prior to hearing the other side of the argument from the other editor involved (Johnbod as it happens). I'm more than happy to go with the consensus and I also agree that, unfortunately, the sanction proposed is needed in view of Catchpoke's apparent reluctance to engage constructively and accept the community consensus. Bermicourt (talk) 11:24, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per a pretty stark showing of disruption and inability to accept consensus. With due respect to IndelibleHulk's observations here, having an established consensus-based process here that cannot be simply short-circuited by one party by mere virtue of unwavering obstinance is far more important to "getting it right" across more articles than is the outcome of any one narrow, heavily pedantic debate about the best editorial approach to one descriptive/empirical term. This is clearly a WP:CIR call: editors who cannot WP:DROPTHESTICK in these kinds of circumstances will (almost invariably) consume increasingly an ever-larger proportion of time from the community, relative to the value of work hours implicit in their direct contributions. Snow let's rap 10:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban from anything related to the topic of etymology broadly construed. I feel this is their best chance to remain on the project. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 04:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Enough with the supporting. Can someone just do it now? EEng 04:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
      • I suppose I could have closed this, but I have given my opinion and now cannot. I did not see how long this had been going. Perhaps another admin wants to close this. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 11:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Alright then. Next time y'all just ping me on WP:ANI 2.0, OK? Drmies (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Death

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I wanna announce the death of my friend AbhiMukh97 who passed away a week ago due to covid. I figured out he used to edit wikipedia and hence informing. 223.223.136.222 (talk) 07:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

223.223.136.222, I'm sorry to hear about this. If you have evidence of their deceased status, I suggest following the instructions here, and possibly contacting the oversight team. Please accept my condolences, BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re BrxBrx}}) 07:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peacemaker67's semi-protection of Arthur Blackburn

LTA trollery, move along --Blablubbs (talk) 15:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Peacemaker67 has semi-protected TFA, Arthur Blackburn, after only a couple of instances of silly vandalism, despite being the major contributor and the person who nominated it for Featured status. This contravenes WP:INVOLVED and is a massive overuse of protection, going against the Wiki philosophy of anyone can edit. Please unprotect the page immediately, and I suggest an admonishment for this admin. 188.232.142.69 (talk) 12:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I cannot notify Peacemaker67 of this thread as they have also semi protected their talk page. Interesting. 188.232.142.69 (talk) 12:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Hyperbole much? It appears to be a reasonable measure, given the silly vandalism [325], is something any reasonable admin would have done, and doesn't contravene involvement.Acroterion (talk) 12:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I've blocked the OP for block evasion, given the use of proxies and the vandalism diff noted in my response above. Acroterion (talk) 12:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't see any issues with the protection of the article in these circumstances (TFA, no content dispute, only protected to end of day, etc etc.), but if it makes anyone who feels slighted feel better, I will take full responsibility for the protection as I 100% agree with it, considering the facts of the case. Daniel (talk) 12:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks all. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that the IP was blocked for block evasion given that none of the other IPs in this case were blocked. How can it be "block evasion" if there's no block to evade? 180.248.121.10 (talk) 12:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Next proxy blocked. Acroterion (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Editing an article does not make one involved. The policy sets the bar at "disputes in which they have been involved". It also goes on to say "In straightforward cases (e.g., blatant vandalism), the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion."

While I personally would have resorted to RFPP in this case, I can't fault Peacemaker67 for this. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 12:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

IP 137.27.65.235

I got some concerns over the behaviour and attitude of the IP editor 137.27.65.235. They seem to be acting aggressive to people reverting or countering their arguments. For example, I commented with a warning in a discussion that their words "Undo revert or i will" was not civil and poor conduct for an editor, and they snapped back with "It wasn't a threatening attitude, yet your "warning" ironically is." I'm concerned they wish to be aggressive in responding to other editors comments, changes to their edits or reversions of their edits, and wish for an admin to check if my concerns are justified. GUtt01 (talk) 10:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

You must notify any users you are discussing about the existence of this discussion; please follow the instructions at the top of this page to do so. 331dot (talk) 10:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Done. GUtt01 (talk) 10:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Other concern I have is some of the IP's edit summaries have included him claiming editors are harassing or badgering him. GUtt01 (talk) 10:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Per talk page comments, this is nonsense. Instead of addressing the issue i was accused of a "threatening attitude" with a 'warning' and i defended myself by simply letting GUtt01 know it was his perception but not accurate. For some reason this user is denying Nightbirde doesn't go by her legal name while performing. It was a calm reaction that i would undo the revert since the source clearly states she is Nightbirde. Not sure what the big deal is but it's irritating having to fight for what's right on here sometimes. Thank you for your time. P.s. Please see my discussion/input/comments here: Talk:America's Got Talent (season_16). I appreciate it. 137.27.65.235 (talk) 10:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, another editor started watching a page i edited on after i made legit contributions on Dion. This person can not stop posting messages on my talk page: [326] instead of discussing the sources i used on the article's talk page. That editor also keeps reverting edits [they] have been wrong about (see Dion & Dion DiMucci discography as well as Joe Bonamassa). It's frustrating to come on here and do good work yet be accused of bad attitude/behavior for being right. Please do not assume i'm like others because i'm defending myself. Nightbirde clearly states she goes by that name while performing which she did on the show and has done professionally before the audition. I'm not sure why this is even an issue but i've left the discussion as not to engage in problems just to prove a point. One day i'm sure it will be fixed/corrected. I regret you were offended. I hope you have a great day! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
P.s. My bad, i guess i should have used the word 'can' instead of 'will' (undo revert or i can) but interestingly i noticed remarks on edit summaries towards IPs that could be considered hostile/attacking in an effort to get them blocked. I apologized to the editors involved for seeming upset at them for reverting or ignoring my input. However, in my defense, it was well over 5 days before i even replied to your 'warning' that did not address the problem. That's hardly "snapped back" and i also took a long break before i was bombarded with talk page accusations immediately after i resumed editing regarding your concern about another editor. People shouldn't read emotions in text nor take it personal. I did not use caps or bad language. This seems to be over based on your last talk page comment about updating it later. Take care! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
An IP cames along to the Dion article and demonstrated WP:SPA behaviour. I investigated to see how deep it went. It was easy to see that the editor was primarily focused on Joe Bonamassa and the subject's record labels at this time. I started with a bit of clean-up including expanding bare references: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Bonamassa&type=revision&diff=1033030296&oldid=1032397339 . The anon came back made two corrections, without edit summary, and I made another correction. More good edits from the anon, etc. The problems came starting with this series of edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Bonamassa&type=revision&diff=1034990881&oldid=1034813649 where we have a primary source supporting claims. I reverted, with explanation and placed a non-templated final warning on anon's page. We then get into the aggressive behaviour from the anon that @GUtt01: mentioned. The main issue is the poor sourcing and aggressive response. I am not sure that this outweighs the somewhat WP:FANCRUFTy but otherwise good addition the anon makes, but WP:CIVIL might need to be explained. Also, the recent focus on Bonamassa's record label may need to be explored. It's not clear if this is simply fandom or if it's paid editing. I have no proof either way. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:35, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
@Walter Görlitz: Word of advice - even though I can see that things between you and the IP were not great, you have nearly let that dispute on editing on Joe Bonamassa become an edit war. Considering your past history, you might what to discuss the issues you have with the IP on the talk page, and point out why you did what you did and see what they have to say. Editing disputes on an article aren't a welcome matter, especially if you let emotions get the better of you. Take a breather, cool off, and come back with a clearer head to discuss things peacefully with the party you have the dispute with. GUtt01 (talk) 14:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I was trying to address the anon's behaviour issues first and, as I was still on another computer trying to get some processes at work to complete, so I was making shortcuts. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
So because i added a record label that produced Dion's notable record which wasn't added to the article yet, i'm a paid editor or fan? Does this only apply to IPs but not others who add to articles such as the AGT program which this issue was initially about? Your interpretation of my behavior is not fact. I resent you thinking i'm behaving uncivil. All you had to do was rework the sentence as you did several minutes ago then there wouldn't have been a problem. The point is, the two artists are on the KTBA label. Don't like all the sources? No problem, remove them. This could have been prevented if you didn't display such mad revert habits as evidenced by multiple blocks. It is what it is. I'll avoid the AGT and Bonamassa article now that you have decided to follow/watch it. It's not worth the stress/headache. At least i backed off. Please take GUtt01's advice and do the same in the future to avoid conflicts such as this. I'm not trying to get my way. I yielded to GUtt01. Sometimes pride should be avoided. Thanks for conceding by accepting my contribution even if it needed to be tweaked. Enjoy your weekend! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
P.s. I think this started because i updated Dion's page due to "poorly written content" which Walter may have taken personally without knowing who did it in the past. This is hardly uncivil/aggressive behavior: curprev 05:50, 7 July 2021‎ 137.27.65.235 talk‎ 41,388 bytes +1‎ →‎Recent work and blues success: 2000–present: thanks for ref fix undo 137.27.65.235 (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Update: After trying to "bury the hatchet" hours ago, i come on to find that Walter has to continue to pester me and accuse me of being connected to Bonamassa because i edited a blues article unrelated to him but similar to his record label name. He has pushed me away. It's evident i have to use another IP or create an account to avoid this toxic behavior. I'm not sure why he gets so many chances and hasn't been blocked indefinitely. This has caused me to be agitated with other editors such as on the AGT article which this ANI was started about. I may or may not edit using this IP from time-to-time but i will avoid their articles. Here are the remarks: [327]. 137.27.65.235 (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Content dispute with DonFB amounting to personal attack

Talk with DonFB

I'm having extreme difficulty talking with DonFB (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribslogsfilter logblock userblock log) justifying his rewrites/revert over my edits. We have unresolvable conflicts of interest, and just like policy states, the repeated undos is aggravating and stressful. I would like an administrator's opinion, whether his behavior constitutes to personal attack, particularly when he would slyly pick at old wounds, like mentioning the previous ANI incident, or smugly bragging that his edit would remain stable for the period of a page protection. I've reposted this from the administrator's noticeboard.

Recent:

[328]

Archive [Talk:Boeing 737 MAX groundings/Archive 2] "brevity". I rest comfortably knowing that my improved version will be stable for the next four days.... :-) DonFB (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2019 (UTC) {ping DonFB}} 133 KB (14,999 words) - 12:04, July 15, 2021

Shencypeter (talk) 00:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment - this seems to be a content dispute between the two of you. I've asked at WT:AV for others to join in and help find consensus. Mjroots (talk) 18:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Chronic violations of MOS:COLOUR by User:Kannweame7961

I recently encountered Kannweame7961 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) creating a series of articles titled Country Name at major beauty pageants (all of which are linked on {{Countries at major beauty pageants}}, the tables of which violated the colour section of MOS:ACCESS. I discussed these with Firefly and changed Angola at major beauty pageants to a MOS compliant format. I then dropped a note to them at their talkpage (User talk:Kannweame7961#Country Name at major beauty pageants formatting) about the issue in the hope this would solve it. Unfortunately enough they haven't responded and have continued creating these articles, as well as reverting the changes on several of them. While I hoped to avoid having to make this formal the rate at which they are creating these means I can't fix them quickly enough. -- Asartea Talk Contribs 08:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Why does this sound familiar? Canterbury Tailtalk 12:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Not sure, except that tables violating MOS:COLOUR are probably more common than tables which don't -- Asartea Talk Contribs 13:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
The colour choice is a bit yucky (to use a technical term) too ...i am placing a few {{Overcoloured}} guiding notices on top of some of the articles today, hope that is ok. ~ BOD ~ TALK 13:31, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
User:Canterbury Tail, anyone specific in mind? I'll tell you already that I could not find anything, though I thought I saw a possible candidate in one of the articles. Asartea, thank you for reporting this and bringing this very important issue to this board--it is a good thing if more people start thinking about this. I propose that this post, following previous warnings and concerns, serve as a final warning to User:Kannweame7961, who seems loath to engage in discussion. The next violation of our accessibility guidelines should be met with a block. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
No, I just could have sworn we had a thread in the last year or so on country colours in beauty pageants. Canterbury Tailtalk 16:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
(non-admin comment) I don't remember that specific discussion, but I've come across any number of {{overcolored}} violations in things like reality shows, election results and genealogies (a non-exhaustive list) which hurt my eyes (and I have perfect colour vision). They need to be stamped on, very hard indeed, especially for the benefit of readers who don't have perfect colour vision. If I want to see what an explosion in a paint factory looks like, I'll try YouTube. Narky Blert (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Based on Belize at major beauty pageants it seems that Kannweame7961(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has headed the messages and is now creating MOS:COLOUR compliant versions of the tables. Therefore I'd like to propose closing this thread as no action taken, but making it clear to Kannweame7961 that this is a final warning and further violations may be met with a block. -- Asartea Talk Contribs 16:21, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Addendum: it would also be appreciated if they could clean up the pages using the old colour scheme. -- Asartea Talk Contribs 16:30, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Look, I know I'm getting to be a broken record on this, but why oh why do we host such pointless compilations as Belize at major beauty pageants, complete with small-type disclaimer reading
    The criteria for the Big Four inclusion is based on specific standards such as the pageants global prominence and prestige approved by worldwide media, the quality and quantity of crowned delegates recognized by international franchisees and pageant aficionados, the winner's post pageant activities; the pageants longevity, consistency, and history; the sincerity of the pageant's specific cause, platform, and advocacy; the overall pre-pageant activities, production quality and global telecast; the enormity of internet traffic; and the extent of popularity amongst pageant fans across the globe.
–? See Category:Nations_at_beauty_pageants. It's just absurd. There seems to be a knot of editors whose hobby is maintaining these endless lists no one looks at (complete with notes about who got "dethroned"), and the rest of us are roped into their battles over table colors and whatnot. I really feel that volunteer time is being wasted in the service of promoting the beauty-pageant industry, much the same way so much editor time has been hijacked for the refereeing of disputes over an elaborate walled garden of in-universe pro-wrestling storytelling. EEng 17:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
I mean if you want to AFD these I won't stop you (I'm personally not convinced of their use either), but as long as we have them we should ensure they remain complaint with our accessibility guidelines. -- Asartea Talk Contribs 17:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
What I want is for pretty much all beauty pageant coverage sunk to the bottom of the sea. EEng 05:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, as usual Eeng, I'm not sure if you are being stylistically hyperbolic or sincere, but let's not try to shoot the moon here when I think your initial comments merit serious consideration: I think you are probably right that these particular 'Country X at Beauty Pageants' articles almost certainly violate WP:NOT along numerous parallel lines of the policy (WP:NOTDIR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE at the least as well as more basic arguments regarding a very WP:SYNTH-based approach to WP:NOTABILITY. WP:NOT makes it clear that these kinds of bare bones stat tracking pages (which do not features as a WP:NOTABLE topic of independent discussion in WP:RELIABLE, independent and WP:SECONDARY sources) are not appropriate for the encyclopedia, but we would have to come to that conclusion anyway, even if not for that short-hand rule, since the lack of non-superficial detail covered in sources raises problems with meeting the burdens of pillar policies.
So by all means, let's not discount the possibility of dumping these articles in their entirety. With respect to Asartea's observation, we might as well start with the more basic existential questions about the articles before we nit-pick details. If a community discussion holds that we should not have the articles in the first place, it will save a lot of time on protracted style disputes, such as whether the colours being used in these charts are garish--or more to the point of our purposes here, whether they problematically fail to align with standard community consensus (limited as it is) with regard to the pragmatics of colour design. Of course, the answer to both is surely an unqualified "yes--they are and do." It seems like there probably are some dedicated contributors with a lot invested in these articles who will make every effort to oppose this clean-up, earnestly believing these articles make all the sense in the world for Wikipedia, but we've pushed back against these kind of fan culture myopic article sprawl before in recent years, with topics like Dungeons and Dragons and professional wrestling. We can do it again here, if consensus among general non-involved editors suggests it is advisable. But you'll want to host the main discussion in the only appropriate space given the breadth of articles and need for a high level of community engagement: WP:VPP. Snow let's rap 09:38, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
While I'm moderately hostile to the numbing meaninglessness of beauty pageant coverage, what you see above was to a large extent spillover from my very real belief that most pro wrestling coverage should be eliminated, because most of what masquerages as sources is, in fact, in-universe kayfabe, and WP has been hijacked as an extension of that. EEng 22:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I just wanted to add EEng that I have some sympathy. The creeping "Wikia/Fandom" side to certain corners of Wikipedia has been something I've passed comment on before, but it's not that easy to deal with I suspect without causing a very messy discussion page. I will say that the beauty pagent wikigophers are perhaps less useful to the wider community than, say, the airport destination gophers, so let's try to tackle one fringe editor faction at a time! doktorbwordsdeeds 22:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Next time. For now let's just kill all the lawyers. EEng 01:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
EEng, when I grow up, I wanna be a LAWLyer just like you... El_C 00:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Belize at major beauty pageants tagged for deletion. JBchrch talk 01:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User:PPP001 Will Not Listen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The user talk page, User talk:PPP001, has an advance warning that I didn't hear that (because I have cotton in my ears). The talk page says:

You aren't allow to add any discussion without my permission,thank you. PPP001$ 05:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

If anyone want to add ,please inform me. PPP001$ 14:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

If anyone add any discussion without my permission, I will clear the discussion. Thank you PPP001$ 04:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no indication of how one obtains permission. Although it is a rule that an editor may state that certain editors may not post to their talk page, that has never been meant to mean that an editor can forbid their talk page from being used. (I will notify them of this post, and they will probably erase the notice, which is permitted.)

I became aware of this after they created approximately twelve poorly sourced or unsourced stubs on Malaysian electoral districts in both draft space and article space. I was in the process of declining the drafts, tagging the articles for notability, and reviewing whether to nominate the stubs for deletion, and I noticed the strange talk page. This editor is not here to work on a team. (This is not a case of a mobile editor who does not know that they have a user talk page. This editor knows that they have it, because they have told us to go away.) Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Is this a linguistic barrier? Or is it really a case of someone who thinks they can prevent others from posting on their talk? I honestly cannot tell. There are plenty of users who blank their talk pages continuously. I will say, in my experience, that is usually correlated with disruptive or tendentious editing, but I don't think it's against any rule. I would say that this user's statement certainly may serve to suppress speech and warnings against them, which are inherently necessary. And, in that way, it may be a good claim for TE/battlegrounding. I'm honestly puzzled by this one.--Shibbolethink() 00:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I've been bold about it and just cleared the section. Nobody can reinforce those rules on their talk pages here. Obviously there are exceptions with IBANs, and some people do tell specific editors to stay off their talk pages when conflicts arise, but this is simply not acceptable. Pinging PPP001 so they can see this explanation, too. Patient Zerotalk 00:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Per WP:UOWN, users are permitted to remove notices from their talk page, which carry an implicit acknowledgement of receiving the message; the exception to that is the removal of declined block requests from active blocks. I've blocked the user 72 hours for repeatedly redirecting drafts into article space despite those warnings. If the behavior resumes when that block expires, I'd recommend an indef block. OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, you’d be spot on there Ohnoitsjamie - would that apply to not letting anybody post to your user page without permission in the first place? That’s mainly what I took issue with, in all fairness. That, and the issue with drafts, which I wasn’t aware of before. Patient Zerotalk 01:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
No, you can't preemptively forbid other users from, nor require permission for, posting notices on your talk page, provided that the messaging doesn't cross over into harassment.OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi Ohnoitsjamie, I'd like you to reconsider the block. While the user seems to lack some collaborative skills ... in two years and 250+ articles, as far as I can see, they have not produced anything which has been deleted [329]. Given the editor's history, and assuming good faith, I suspect the editor was expressing frustration at having a raft of pieces at AfC not approved (by me) and their talk page filled up with the rejections (and those pieces had been moved to draft space earlier). All their previous work has ultimately passed...and that the articles were then approved at NPP adds to the complexity (albeit they circumvented the AfC process...but I see that as a reflection of their frustration). Yes, there's behaviour there which is not collaborative, but they have not specifically targeted incivility at anyone, and the lack of verification is not an egregious breach ... seems to me further gentle engagement could be applied. Pinging two involved editors Onel5969 Mccapra. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 02:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. We’re here to work collaboratively. Refusal to have messages on your talk page, let alone work with other editors, pushing improperly sourced drafts into mainspace and expecting others to do the work of sourcing your creations isn’t working collaboratively. I have no view on what should best be done about it. Mccapra (talk) 02:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
The first block is temporary, and they now have a little bit of time to develop some collaborative skills; they could get the time reduced if they acknowledged the reason for the block, etc. Additionally, unilaterally redirecting rejected drafts to article space is disruptive. OhNoitsJamie Talk 02:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Ohnoitsjamie, Fair enough and thanks for the quick reply. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 03:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I spent some time going through their article creations, both back in 2019 and this year. I've audited over 50, and not a single one of them has a valid source. 50. You click on the single link, do control F for the article subject, and nothing comes up. This editor appears to latch on to a single reference, which might be valid for one article, and then use it repeatedly. I'm not saying these entities don't exist. Mccapra did some digging and encountered sourcing to show that they do. The issue now is that you have a hundred or so articles without a single valid reference, if the trend my audit found continues throughout them. I'll give a few examples, such as his first article creation, Jalong (state constituency), Rim (state constituency), Lenggeng (state constituency) (2 refs, neither of which refer to it), although some now have permanently dead links, like Aulong (state constituency), Kota (state constituency), Kuala Sepetang (state constituency), Bercham (state constituency), Bukit Naning (state constituency). Take that last one as a perfect example, the ref is about the election in Johor, but the list of election results does not mention Bukit Naning. I don't want to list all the articles, but you just have to click on any in his article creation log. Not sure what to do, but I don't think a block from creating any new articles until they demonstrate that they understand notability and WP:VERIFY is out of line. And then something should be done about those they've already created. Onel5969TT me 04:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
    Onel5969, the editor's behaviour certainly strains one's commitment to assuming good faith... :) Nevertheless, my reading is a mixture of carelessness and stubborness, rather than outright malintent. Yes, it is disruptive and can understand the reason for the block, but as far as I can see they have not mass created hoax articles. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 04:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
    Goldsztajn, my apologies if I gave the impression that I thought these were not valid article subjects. On the contrary, part of the issue is that they do appear to be valid article subjects, just with no sourcing to meet WP:VERIFY. I had thought my mentioning of Mccapra's research showed that. I'll try to be more specific in the future. Onel5969 TT me 13:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
    @Onel5969: I'm still on wikibreak so won't investigation this further but just as a quick comment, I have not looked into the other referencing problems but you are mistaken about Bukit Naning. A quick check of this ref [330] confirms it is mentioned. Please note that Bukit Naning is a state constituency not a parliamentary one (as per the disambiguation) so you will need to click on state to show it in the ref as it defaults to parliamentary constituencies. An unfortunate but not uncommon problem with fancy sites. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a common problem with referencing since (federal) parliamentary constituencies are more important in Malaysia, so most will show them by default. Referencing could obviously do with improvement and I do not know the general notability requirements we impose for state constituencies in countries with federal election systems, so whether these should be considered automatically notable or what. But from what I've seen I strongly suspect these all did or do exist and you could find primary table/database sources and secondary table/database sources confirming their existence and actually most of the sources they used did or do mention these if you can work out how to navigate the site. I say "did" because some of them might have changed, and notably archive links especially on archive.org may not work properly and so be unable to show content that was there. If the site is in Malay look out for negeri (not negara!) or DUN. Nil Einne (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
    Nil Einne, thank you. I had not realized that different button at the top of the source. I'm glad that those earlier articles will not need to be looked at. I realized after posting the above, that back in 2019 I must have discovered the same thing, since I reviewed several of them, like Membakut (state constituency), and Klias (state constituency). However, the most recent ones still have the referencing issue, unless I'm misreading those as well. Regarding notability, they will pass WP:GEOLAND, being populated legally recognized places. Onel5969 TT me 13:04, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oklo Adiga Using Wikipedia For Promotional Purposes

Oklo Adiga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I would have taken this to COIN but this doesn’t involve one article but a pattern of creating rather dubious articles. Their Talk page tells the whole story and the aforementioned pattern.

I think that they aren’t here to build an encyclopedia is pretty much overt. Celestina007 (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Coal Press Nation/Archive. This may be yet another WP:PAID sockpuppet specialising in promoting Nigerian musical artists. User:Olakunle Rufai also (example of promotional editing). Citobun (talk) 02:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Definitely worth flagging. Their determination to get Da Great and Bayo Ododo onto Wikipedia is quite remarkable. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 10:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User: IP 2a02:ed0:4290:8400:50c5:4f63:d2ef:8f84 (IP fluctuates)

The disruptive editing of this user can be seen in the edit history and talk page of Mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids.

They consistently edit the Vegan/Vegetarian section falsely implying that E471 is vegan. They never change any sources, resulting in the article contradicting its sources.

The user has neglected to discuss their edits after I requested they do so twice.

Their IP address is never constant, making it difficult for me to post on their talk page. I have, however, posted on two of these shifting IP talk pages.

I have reverted their edits six times now and don't know what to do. I'm not experienced on wikipedia and this isn't a particularly high traffic article.

Many thanks for anyone's help here! Hereditorygrass (talk) 05:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Hereditorygrass: I semi-protected the article so the IPs will not be able to edit it for some time. Let me know if the problem resumes. It would be better next time to make your post on the article talk page a little more inviting: don't talk about the IP and how you've reverted them. Instead, say that you have reverted the changes because [brief reason here] and invite a response. I checked the VeganCateringForAll.pdf ref and indeed the IP's edits do contradict that. Johnuniq (talk) 10:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Editing by IP 121.7.130.157

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP 121.7.130.157 recently began editing on 2 July 2021, a few days after a user called User talk:Garfield 3185 (contributions here) was blocked on 28 June 2021‎. The IP has an obsessive tendency to randomly edit pages of Singaporean politics like Garfield by blanking and removing contents without reason and refusing to use edit summaries despite requests. Similar pages edited include List of TVB dramas in 2020 and List of political parties in Singapore.

The IP is very clearly aware of their talkpage, having tried to revert my notification they should not be editing if they are Garfield, and completely failing to respond to concerns raised on their talkpage thus far.

I have done my best to assume good faith, but the current bout of editing where they broke nearly 10 pages at one go has convinced me that the IP is a net negative to the project, and barring a refusal to either communicate or outright disclaim they are Garfield, should not be allowed to edit any further. Seloloving (talk) 11:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Administrator Doug Weller has taken the necessary decisive action to block the IP for 3 months. Thank you. Seloloving (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict):@Seloloving:, thanks. Our editor interaction analyzer shows clearly that they are the same person.[331] Doug Weller talk 12:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:WikiBullying by User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00

I am compelled to report the said users for persistent wikibullying. The policy says: "On Wikipedia, all editors have fair and equal rights to editing all articles, project pages, and all other parts of the system. While some may have more knowledge or familiarity with a topic than others, this does not mean those with less Wikipedia jargon are at a lower level, or not entitled to their point of view."

In my case:

1. User:Aman.kumar.goel has been undoing all my contributions to the pages List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism and List of converts to Islam from Hinduism without even bothering to check the references and sources I added. I was improving both the articles with references and fixed some unreliable sources but next day all my edits were undone. My request in this regard to User:Aman.kumar.goel on his talk page was also unanswered[332].

2. I had to contact the Helpdesk[333] where User:331dot and User:Maproom advised me to discuss this on the article's talk page so I opened a thread on the article's talk page here[334] for discussion.

3. Despite all these efforts User:Aman.kumar.goel kept undoing my contributions without even bothering to look at the references I added (though I used only reliable sources which are being used in other Wikipedia articles). Instead of any explanation, he continued undoing my works repeatedly and threatend me of disabling my editing rights. Didn't pay any heed to the administrator[335] who advised him to discuss rather deleted my own message from my own talk page[336].

4. In the middle of these, suddenly another User:Capitals00 came with a similar warning and false statesments against my edits. I have not interacted with him before and did not even know him. He said I was making own calculations but anyone can verify that I added reliable sources for my every contributions.

Since, my contributions with reliable sources have been undone by them yet they have no interest in discussion so I am forced to report them to get my contribution rights please. --Bringtar (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Bringtar Just FYI you are required to notify any other users you are discussing of the existence of this discussion(see the top of this page for instructions on how to do so). 331dot (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Maybe I am not aware of all the issues here but the question from the Help Desk does remain in that is it insufficient for an individual's statement of their religious conversion as evidence of their religious conversion? 331dot (talk) 09:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
331dot sorry, I am doing that now. Thank you again for all your help. Bringtar (talk) 09:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Ratnahastin I have no earlier accounts. I edited wikipedia in the past without creating any accounts and I did not plan to make regular contributions here but that does not mean I cannot contribute. Also I did not make any edit-war rather tried to discuss it with the other editor who has been edit-warring. Can you please list my unreliable sources because I was the one who replaced the Wikipedia article links with reliable sources. Bringtar (talk) 09:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
    You are accusing me of WP:ADMINSHOP but FYI, I contacted the helpdesk first as this was the first place to look for a help when my edits were removed and like I mentioned above, when the other user were reluctant to discuss and gave me block threats then I have to report them here according to WikiBullying policy. --Bringtar (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think this is acually a problem - but not from Bringtar. A number of the entries added by Bringtar do appear to have reliable sources, though some I am less sure about. Also, many of the entries added do talk about the subject's conversion from Hinduism in their own article, often with reliable sources. Thus, the behaviour of Aman.kumar.goel and Capitals00 jumping in with a totally unjustified final vandalism warning suggests to me some problematic POV editing from those two editors. Yes, clearly multiple accounts are trying to add that information. However, removing it en masse when some of the entries are clearly correct per the subjects own articles is equally as disruptive. Why not remove any poorly sourced entries, and leave the rest? Advice to Bringtar. Ensure that the sources you use are definitely reliable, and be especially careful if the subjects are living people. Do not add the entries if you are unsure, and you can always ask for advice at WP:RSN. You can also use many of the sources in the subject's own articles to source the entries. Black Kite (talk) 09:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the advise. If you see my discussion threads, I repeatedly asked to point me to the unreliable sources so I can improve with better sources. Anyway, I will use WP:RSN to verify reliability. Thanks again. Bringtar (talk) 09:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have also seen similar 'consistent unhealthy' pattern from User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00 of abusing Wiki processes to bully, some examples below:
User:Aman.kumar.goel
1. Reported me as sock, and I proved for the admin the mistake in blocking that I am not a sock. Strangely, when I was blocked, of all the edits he undid my specific edits of a Hindutva far-right politician article ONLY. For example, this article before[337] and after[338] undoing edits.
2. He 'again' reports me as sock, not even bother doing a basic check. Can understand if he is a beginner like me or if reporting me for the first time. Please check the frivolous claims for 13 July 2021 report[339]. What is amazing is the consistent efforts being spent to bring some irrelevant 'similarity' with years apart pattern of edits as sock. Sock report (meant for catching actual frauds) is abused here by bunching irrelevant accounts frequently, as seen in this report[340]. Commendable if actual fraudulent socks are identified, but this consistent pattern of sock labelling by bunching accounts based on some strange 'similarity' is unhealthy and taking sock report and admins for granted.
3. For the article, [[341]] neither he points which specific entry is problematic nor stops from undoing contributions without talking in that page.
User:Capitals00
1. For the article, [[342]] similarly neither he points which specific entry is problematic nor stops from undoing contributions without talking in the page.
2. In my talk page[343] threatens in the first instance itself 'you should be indeed very careful'. Doesn't respond to my questions.
3. Doesn't clarify and doesn't respond to my second communication in my talk page on this change[344] despite proper sources.
User:Ratnahastin above who mentioned that 'I don't see "bullying"', has recently undone PLENTY of articles (pages of who embraced Islam) of my well researched edits which were inputs to the same List of converts to Islam from Hinduism article without any discussion tantamount to vandalism. For example, here[345] and here[346] as I was trying to tag Category:Converts to Islam from Hinduism for organizing. This is similar to User:Capitals00's undoing for this article[347].
Above are some example, please check the edit history pattern and their communication to mine and other talk pages for more such. In summary, articles like List of converts to Islam from Hinduism and List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism is not allowed to be evolved with User:Aman.kumar.goel, User:Capitals00 and User:Ratnahastin having similar disruptive activities without any beneficial discussion in the talk page of that article. Why they are disrupting together by bullying the contributors, especially when well researched factual entries are updated for these articles? Attempts with well researched sources get undone by ascribing 'sock' labels, threats, etc. with no response at times or no discussion in the respective article's talk page. Based on the nature of articles and edits that get disrupted, shows a far right wing POV by bullying others who want to contribute even well researched information. If they can't point out which specific row/entry is a mistake, and keeps on undoing all entries, what is to be done? Is this the manner, a healthy, open and conducive atmosphere to encourage contribution of topics with such suffocating 'abuse' of wiki admin terms/block threats? Many admins in the past have corrected my flaws as a beginner without ascribing false motives or in a threatening tone in my talk page (like @Toddy1:, @Callanecc:, @Kautilya3:, etc.). But User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00 especially are abusing Wiki admin processes (meant for removing actual trolls) with threats, wasting both admin time and the user's time. Am not an expert/senior here on 'all' legal nuances and unaware yet on all rituals to give a sophisticated comment, not sure if any wiki policies/behaviors if the above statements have got touched for conveying the grievance in laymen terms above. Hope, experts get the crux of what I really meant. If anything rude, please let me know, will withdraw that specific statement. Thanks for understanding and co-operating for making a better world. Loveall.human (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I have nothing to add that has not been said above - I checked just two of the sources that Aman.kumar.goel claimed were inadequate, and found that both were reliable press articles reporting "<subject> said 'I converted to Christianity ...'". Maproom (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
@Maproom: since you didn't say which examples you checked, it's impossible to see more. But to state the obvious, you can have The Hindu, BBC, NYT, Reuters, The Globe and Mail all reporting "<subject> said 'I converted to Christianity ...'". If this is all you have, you cannot use this to add anyone to either of those lists especially not living person. Those lists are lists of people who converted from Hinduism. Unless the person said "from Hinduism" or otherwise earlier talked about how they were a follower of Hinduism before conversion, then they are insufficient. Indeed if an editor repeatedly adds living persons to such lists and their sourcing mentions conversion to Christianity (or whatever) but not "from", they should be topic banned from such lists or maybe from BLPs generally. If we have lists which are converts to Christianity or Islam without the from, then yeah probably such sources are sufficient although I'm not sure we should have such lists. Nil Einne (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: For example, when Muhammad Ali or Jermaine Jackson or Cat Stevens embraced Islam, they did not declare in the template, I am going to convert from 'XYZ'. We infer from the upbringing, name, family, reputed sources, interviews etc. There are 'all kinds' of such lists here in Wikipedia, but here only the convert lists from Hinduism are being disrupted from growing. Again, if any 'specific' entry is not well sourced, that can be discussed but as you notice FOR MANY YEARS these two specific articles have been stifled from maturing. Especially within India's Hindu majority setup, as per constitution anyone who is NOT Muslim/Christian/Parsi/Jew is considered (yes, including Buddhists and Sikhs) as Hindu. Even if a Muslim in India gives up his religion and is yet to adopt a new faith can still be considered as Hindu as per constitution. BUT, this list does not have such (i.e. from Sikh or Buddhist family etc.). Loveall.human (talk) 04:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Nil Einne, if you mean a person has to declare himself that he "converted from x to y" then most of the entries in List of converts to Hinduism from Christianity and List of converts to Hinduism from Islam do not support that but still they were included? Bringtar (talk) 05:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bringtar and Loveall.human: ANI is not really the place for extensive discussions on policy issues but I wasn't trying to say you need the person to say "from XYZ". Personally I think we should require self-identification for previous religious identity (which doesn't have to be in the form of "I converted from", it could be "I was" etc), but this isn't the right place to discuss that and I tried to make it clear it wasn't what I was saying. However you do need a source to say what the person's previous religious was or better to specifically say what they converted from. If you have a source simply saying the person was raised as XYZ, I personally don't think that is sufficient but I won't dispute that here.

But you definitely cannot make inferences from where a person lives, their name or even their parent's or families religion. That's always a violation of WP:OR even when BLPs aren't involved. And sorry, a countries constitution or laws are completely irrelevant. Religion is a personal thing, it's not what someone else says. There are BLP reasons for this but even putting that aside, it's simple common sense.

To give an example, in some Muslim countries, it's legally not possible to convert from Islam and a child's religion follows their father. But in practice a small number of Muslims do convert despite the risk and of course some of these go on to raise children in their religion. Outwardly and in the eye's of the country's legal system the child may be Muslim. However if they always rejected Islam, it doesn't make sense to say they (unlike their parents) are a convert from Islam, and it's unlikely they considered themselves as such. The fact they were forced to publicly "follow" and profess Islam doesn't change this. (I would prefer not to single out a religion like this, but in truth while I know some countries e.g. Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia and Freedom of religion in Malaysia where conversion from Islam is not possible, I do not know of any where conversion from some other religion is not possible in the modern world.)

Per WP:Other stuff exists, existing problems are not an excuse to add more problems. Any entries which are a problem in any article need to be fixed with better sources added, or the entries remove if these sources do not exist. I had a look, and it seems to me that Muhammad Ali may be fine. But Yusuf Islam is indeed a problem at List of converts to Islam from Christianity and so I tagged it. I do not see Jermaine Jackson in any list of converts from article, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Nil Einne, appreciate your views and accordingly I have removed many unverified claims from here[348]. Just for your information, my thread here is not about these policies but about the unprofessional behaviors and intimidation by User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00. I also see another administrator have reinstated some of my edits here[349] which proves my edits were not disruptive. Bringtar (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Bringtar is an editor whose first edit was 20 July 2021. I am amazed that such a new editor already knows about WP:ANI. Instead of trying to resolve the issues on the article talk page(s) as he/she was advised to, he/she brought a complaint to WP:ANI.

This post by Aman.kumar.goel 07:35, 22 July 2021 is a bit strong in that it includes {{uw-biog3}} instead of {{uw-biog1}}, but the message carefully and helpfully explains what Aman.kumar.goel perceived the problem to be: "Your continued violation of WP:BLPCAT, WP:OR and WP:RS on List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism and List of converts to Islam from Hinduism and use of highly unreliable sources. The source should be 100% clear that "x converted from x to x" and if the person is alive then they should admit it themselves." Aman.kumar.goel might not be perfect, but he/she was being helpful. I do not think it was helpful of Aman.kumar.goel to delete this post by Bringtar 13:55, 22 July 2021 when Aman.kumar.goel posted a reply on User talk:Bringtar. 18:54, 22 July 2021

Aman.kumar.goel is giving good advice. Bringtar should assume good faith and take the advice that both Aman.kumar.goel and I have given him/her - see Talk:List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism#Which are the BLP violations according to you?. -- Toddy1 (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Toddy1, I am amazed that you said it because I was trying to resolve it through discussion not Aman.kumar.goel and he repeatedly ignored all my messages on his talk page and on article's talk page. I am a long time supporter of Wikipedia and I frequently use it for information. What is a problem in this? I do not know about ANI, but to get my editing rights, I created this thread as instructed on this page[350] where it clearly states with a link to this board: "If you feel that you are being bullied or another user has threatened you with bodily harm, it is important that you report them immediately to the Incidents page on the Administrator's Noticeboard so the matter can be properly dealt with"
I think you did not check properly because:
1. I contacted Aman.kumar.goel on his talk page to discuss first which is still unanswered[351] when he undid all my edits.
2. I sought help from Help desk and I created the thread for discussion[352] on article's talk page not Aman.kumar.goel and again he removed my edit without discussing it on that thread.
3. Aman.kumar.goel even tried to block me from editing the page but he was advised to discuss[353] but as usual he did not!
4. His only message came with a accusation of "disruptive editing" on my talk page and in that too he removed my own message from my talk page!
Now, would you still say he tried to give "good advice" and I did not try discussing it to resolve it? What would you do if a user continuously removing your all edits and then ignoring your messages? I do not consider a block threat as a good advise. Bringtar (talk) 05:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
He/she pasted the wrong number on the template message ("3" when "1" or "2" would have been better). He/she also carefully wrote out what he/she thought you needed to do, which was a kind and helpful thing to do.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Is it? He/she didn't discuss on article's talk page or on their own talk page even after advise from an administrator[354]. Their message only came after they reverted my whole edit repeatedly. From when does accusing someone's contributions as "disruptive" have become a "kind" and "helpful" thing? Weren't they obliged to participate in discussion at the very first place when they were removing my edits? Bringtar (talk) 12:28, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Now, I came to know that I am being reported here[355] so that I can be blocked from editing. I did not know Wikipedia can have these kind of editors who can file a report but cannot discuss to collaborate. Bringtar (talk) 05:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Now, even I am also accused now as 'sock' for interacting with you. Is 'sock' some infection? To consider, this is the 'third' time I am accused as 'sock', with carefully crafted some similar 'behaviors' as evidences. Even if accused 100 times as 'sock' not an issue when there are wise admins to investigate. But, how can this sock reporting be abused so many times like this (which is meant to catch actual fraudulent accounts)? Instead of learning Wiki policies and contributing, one has to spend time in academic wiki rituals back and forth proving that one is not a 'sock' because of this illuminate type frivolous 'sock' pattern (which is challenging to disprove at times, as there are co-incidental shared interests/pages every time when accused). Sock report is a blessing, but let there be an observation on the pattern of bullying/desperation to stifle accounts, like for my case. Effectively for example the List of converts to Islam from Hinduism page has been stuck from evolving for almost 5 years with this bullying.Loveall.human (talk) 10:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Loveall.human: Do not worry. I have had people accuse me of being sockpuppet at WP:SPI. Since I was not a sockpuppet, the accusations were rejected.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Toddy1:, Your quoted policy says "Before opening an investigation, you need good reason to suspect sockpuppetry" but in my case it is full of lies and deliberate attempts to block me from editing. If they are making policy based edits then why don't then answer my questions[356]? Bringtar (talk) 12:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Of course there is good reason. You created the account at 18:00, 13 May 2020.Special:Log/Bringtar But your first edit was 19:46 20 July 2021.XTools Bringtar Since then you have made 98 edits (none deleted).XTools Bringtar That is a lot of edits per day! As a "new" editor, you know about forum shopping, WP:ANI and WP:SPI. This edit13:55, 22 July 2021 shows that you know about dredging up past criticism of editors you are in conflict with.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You are now accusing me of forum shopping. I already told you that I opened this thread as per instruction here[357]. You mentioned that WP:SPI policy, not me. I came to know about my report from User:Loveall.human who informed me on their talk page19:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC). My this edit[13:55, 22 July 2021] which was also reverted by Aman.kumar.goel exactly proves my point here. Anyone can go and check their talk page. I found that when I left them a message here[358]. I have been using Wikipedia for a long time and have made minor edits in the past without the need of creating any account but Wikipedia always suggested to create an account because my IP was exposed. You should read what User:Black Kite has mentioned above. Bringtar (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment, this case more or less resembles a similar one a couple months ago (See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1066 § Aman.kumar.goel's conduct). Inappropriate templating check, accusations of apparent policy violations check, no further explanation and no response when their own activities are questioned check. In the previous case, AKG repeatedly removed material which was sourced to unambiguously reliable sources related to the extent of the COVID-19 pandemic in India, with no talk page participation and in the end used original research and unreliable sources themselves when they finally had to participate in one. ProcrastinatingReader pointed out there was inappropriate MEDRS stonewalling involved as well, in general I think their conduct looks like long term tendentious editing which drives away productive users and stonewalls development of articles in the process.
In addition, there's likely some sort of meatpuppetry going on here. I have not seen Capitals00 before but they are pretty much playing the same role AKG's counterpart in the previous report was, who barely had any activity for months before the stonewalling, Capitals00 similarly barely has any activity for months before the stonewalling here. Tayi Arajakate Talk 13:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Another ethnic warrior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chezia dfg (talk·contribs) is not here to edit, but to defend the great truth. He started with deleting whole section in Egyptians 1, without explanation. He then came to Syrians, and this time called it a correction 2. Now, what he insert is the word Arab and Arabian instead of any reference to any other peoples. Hence, he can be characterized as an Arab ethnic warrior. Anyway, I gave him a warning 3, and ever since, he has enjoyed cursing me every now and then. So, this is the list:
1-You are just a fake liar
2-You are a liar, a forged typeface
3- and on my talk page he has: What you are doing is spreading lies and forgery
4- and the best, which he wrote in Arabic and translated by me: ارجع لبلدك وكفاك تزوير وكذب يا بقايا الصليبيين It means: go back to your country and enough forgery and lies you remnants of Crusaders. To give context, this "crusaders" thing is what Islamist Arab nationalists tell the Christians in the Middle East to deny them their historic connection with the land (p.s Im not a Christian).

This guy has already been blocked before, and his talk page is a wall of warnings from other users. No reason for him to stay here.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 16:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Attar-Aram syria: - you are supposed to inform the editor complained of about this discussion, per the big yellow notice in the edit window. That said, he's clearly WP:NOTHERE to contribut constructively and his short editing career is now over. Mjroots (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP 74.88.193.39

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Same editor, still making unconstructive edits after two blocks, most recently on Interstate 287, and not saying a word. Needforspeed888 (talk) 15:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threat from 45.115.89.36

45.115.89.36 is attempting to alter a direct quote that is referenced on Ramachandra Deva I and after being reverted and warned repeated the action with an edit summary saying "Don't chanr next time otherwise be ready for Legal Action". Notfrompedro (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Notfrompedro: The IP had not been warned about legal threats; I've advised them with a {{uw-legal}} warning. —C.Fred (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I was unaware of that template. Notfrompedro (talk) 18:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Notfrompedro: No problem. And thank you for bringing this IP to the attention of the administrators. If their disruptive editing continues they will wind up blocked, legal threat or no. —C.Fred (talk) 18:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
  • A second IP made the same edit, so I have semi-protected the article. Leaving this thread open temporarily. —C.Fred (talk) 18:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User:MfactDr, non engagement on the talk page, disruptive behaviour

Hello, can you look into the behaviour of user User:MfactDr?

  • On july 16th i reverted him and mentioned WP:BRD [[359]], and asked him on the talk page to discuss the edits he made [360], since we reached consensus on the talk page and edit summaries not to include incidental claims of what happend in another region(Tigray Region) on Amhara Region article, this is the reference to the (cow incident) reinstated by user.
  • The User then ignored the call to discuss on the talk page, and reinstated the incidental claim on july the 17th [361], [362], [363], [364] over 4 edits, so i couldn't revert user. I saw it on the 20th of July and out of good faith asked User:MfactDr again to engage on talk page [365],
  • Another user saw it on July 21st what occured on the article and reverted User:MfactDr [366] and pointed him to the talk page to discuss. User:MfactDr then reverted the other user [367] and confirmed that he deliberatly ignored any calls for discussion on the talk page. User:MfactDr has ignored my calls for discussion twice, and the other user once, he ignored the calls for discussion 3 times total. User is also belligerent and accusatory in his edit summaries towards users.

Thanks Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 02:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria, You have not engaged in the discuss. You removed war crime committed by Amhara militia. No one understand why you want to remove it. War crime included in the Amhara Region § During Tigray war section. if you are disputing reliability of the source, you are more than welcome to discuss. you deleted the the whole content and source here[368], However I am restored the contents and source here[369].MfactDr (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@MfactDr Everyone can look at the talk page history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Amhara_Region and see that MfactDr has contributed zilnch. The same edit i reverted and now mentioned here 3 times [370] clearly shows i said WP: BRD and said come to talk page. I reverted MfactDr because there was a consensus on the talk page, not to include incidental claim(cow incident), and the wordpress source. On my part after discussion with other editors i dropped that, TPLF attacked federal soldiers and that a TPLF official admitted the attack. MfactDr did not contribute to any discussion, after being called 3 times to do so. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 04:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

And another article Oromo language just 2+ hours ago when i was posting this, MfactDr overturned all edits made on the article through consensus, not by reverting but through 5. The first 3 edits, [371], [372], [373], (look at the time of the edits), then came in the Notice on his talk page [374], then in an attempt to cover up MfactDr [375], [376]

And while we are at it we can go further back, and see a history of ignoring talk page discussion on Oromo people article on the subject of Malik Ambar.

  • On May 6th i reverted MfactDr [378] and asked him to join talk page discussion, i openend a section there to discuss the source, arguing there was a contemprary source versus the indian times source he used. [379]. The section is still open there, and he hasn't responded not even once https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oromo_people#Malik_Ambar_source.
  • On July 16th after two full months, MfactDr reinstated Malik Ambar [380]. Now i want to make it clear, i don't care one bit whether Malik Ambar comes from Maya, Oromo or Outer space, i just wanted to discuss conflicting sources, and MfactDr just ignored the talk page for months and very recently quitely reinstated Malik Ambar. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dawit S Gondaria, I think you have problem of understanding how Wikipedia work. Still, I don’t understand your problem and accusation. If you believe the contents and sources I have added to article is wrong, let Admin judge!, wait for the response.MfactDr (talk) 06:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

To notify you that I filed a similar ANI report here. Sorry for doubling the effort, but it seems that I was approaching this from a slightly different angle, and didn't know of this report when I started out. LandLing 11:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Landroving Linguist: I have moved your thread here, as a subsection. --JBL (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, that will do! LandLing 15:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Ongoing POV editing by User:MfactDr

This was originally created as a separate complaint, I have moved it here as a subsection. --JBL (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

User:MfactDr created an account in early 2019. Since then he has performed almost 3000 edits on Wikipedia. I think it is fair to say that, judging from his lists of contributions so far, MfactDr only makes edits that either say good things about the Oromo people[381][382][383][384] or that say bad things about other ethnic groups of Ethiopia, particularly the Amhara people[385][386][387]. Of course that in itself is perfectly permissible on Wikipedia, as long as it happens in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. As a fresh editor, MfactDr of course didn't know these rules to begin with, but after being confronted by other editors, he made an effort to learn things like not marking substantial edits as minor, using edit summaries, citing sources, and, over time, only citing reliable sources. Initially, though, this could only be accomplished through a block at a time when the edits were becoming more and more disruptive.

At the same time it cannot be denied that some of the editor's edits are indeed useful,[388][389] as long as they are compatible with his two above-stated goals. I initially had hopes that the overall behavior would improve to a point where MfactDr would grow into a valuable contributor towards the Wikipedia project, once he learned all the rules and could bring himself to apply them, in spite of his strong ethnic nationalist motivation. But these hopes were several times disappointed when MfactDr would engage in edit wars (as on the pages Hachalu Hundessa and Hachalu Hundessa riots in July 2020) and going on editing sprees in which he apparently forgot or ignored all his newly learned skills; he would then spread questionable claims based on unsuitable sources across several pages (as in one case here, here and here). It was increasingly difficult to convince him desisting in these cases.

In January 2021 I was asked by Keith_D to see what could be done on pages that were damaged by an edit war between MfactDr and another user (now blocked), and I took it on me to bring things into what I believed was a reasonable state. At that time I still had hopes for MfactDr's development and defended him against a proposed block (also here. But since then I did more clean-up work after POV edits by MfactDr and therefore had more and more run-ins with MfactDr, where he also became increasingly hostile and belligerent in his language, accusing me of POV editing, being an enemy of his people, and being engaged in edit warring.

His talk-page history is full of warnings by other users (such as here, here, here, here, here, here and here), which he keeps deleting after some time, even being warned about doing this. In general, MfactDr pursues a WP:IDHT approach to receiving policy advice and warnings, as is evident in the recent discussion on sourced information being undue on the Oromia page.

In the last few weeks MfactDr's reverts and disruptive edits without edit summaries have increased, and his recent behavior indicates he is currently not inclined to take steps to improve his behavior. I therefore request that a temporary block is imposed against him, hoping that it will have a similar effect as his first block two years ago, calming him down and reminding him that he needs to follow the rules of Wikipedia in order to stay a long-term contributor.

During the writing of this I noticed that another editor today filed another ANI complaint against MfacDr. As this user has similar issues to those of MfactDr, I thought it worthwhile to continue with this filing, although I know that this is not ideal. LandLing 11:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated Personal Attack by LandLing

Dear Admin,

Allow me to explain what happened between me and the user I have mentioned above. truly speaking user joined Wikipedia 15 years ago , had contributed 2449 edit to wkipedia while I joined Wikipedia 2 years ago I Have made 2949 edit. I Have created several pages and edited improved several page more than user above in useful way. recently LandLing keep personally attack me on several occasion to prevent me from editing

1. user rash to judge me as I edited article without even checked who exactly edited! calling me putting junk all over the pages of Wikipedia, repeatedly" User talk:Landroving Linguist § Regards Minilik Articles

2. user excessively biased toward others language of Ethiopia except Amharic speakers as he introduced 2007 census for other speakers and Amharic speakers data from ethnologue. I was asking him to use same data for all and user attack me personally threats me from editing by saying "Honestly, don't you realize that the stuff you do makes Oromos look ridiculous by its sheer pettiness? Probably not what you want to accomplish. Why can't you reign in your nationalist feelings if they drive you to this kind of actions?" I felt not safe to contribute to Wikipedia and I have Invited User:Eostrix to intervene on here User talk:MfactDr § Languages of Ethiopia and LandLing finally changed the data for all groups language of Ethiopia to ethnlogue after User:Eostrix step in. deny his biased and calling me nationalist, petty ridiculous.

3. user make fun of me by insulting indirectly calling me "ethnic nationalist", "Oromo firebrand" Again on here Talk:Oromia § History Section user biased toward other group except Amharic speakers even removed whole source and content from "war crime" of Amhara Militia here[390]

Dear admin, I believe Wikipedia is community website not personal website. I believe Wikipedia has strict rule on personal attack. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans.

I am genuinely don’t know why I am targeted by LandLing Over and over again while I am able to work with number of users not attack me at except LandLing.

LandLing damaged my integrity, values by his remarks comment by attacking me rather than the ideas.

Dear Admin, I am really getting sick because of this user. Please admin, Please stop LandLing from threatening and Verbal abuse again. Thank You MfactDr (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Coming at defense of LandLing, and highlighting MfactDr accusatory behaviour and bias(to the point of scary) against Amharas.
  • I have had heated discussions with LandLing on Amhara related articles such as on Talk:Amhara people, to suggest/accuse he is biased towards Amharic speakers as MfactDr did is flat out wrong.
  • MfactDr on the other hand no problem reinstating Original research on [394] just because it demonizes an Amhara figure
  • MfactDr uncivil behaviour of ignoring talk page discussions and filling the Amhara Region article with events happening in another region, contrary to consensus reached with other editors on Talk:Amhara_Region page, lead me to open this ANI against this user.
  • MfactDr hypocrasy about a 2007 census, has reinstated on the Amhara people article [395] while ofcourse having no issue with a updated source on the Oromo people article, updated by the same LandLing [396] & [397] he is accusing.
Summary: MfactDr appear to have a resentment against a specific ethnic group to a point that is unhealthy for any human being and frankly is terrifying, and MfactDr is willing to combat other editors and ignore any discussions to force content he sees fit to that end. Although some terms used by LandLing to describe MfactDr edits is unfortunate, take notice of MfactDr behaviour and sense of (ethnic) victimhood in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oromia#History_Section and the generalization of a ethnic group Amhara people as criminals. No sense of NPOV here. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 10:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Non administrative commentary, but I recall reporting them in sockpuppet investigations of Hoaeter for similar behavior? - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 16:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
No, he is definitely not. The two have very different perspectives. LandLing 17:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Requesting admin intervention

Almost three days have passed since DSG filed his complaint against MfactDr, and so far, beyond a helpful clerical intervention by JBL, this case has not received any attention by non-involved people, not to speak of admins. But have a look at the accusations flying around here: DSG accuses MfactDr of persistent disruptive editing,[398] MfactDr assumes that DSG has WP:CIR-issues,[399] I accuse MfactDr of intractable POV editing,[400] and MfactDr states that my ongoing unjustified personal attacks caused emotional distress to his sensitive self, if not outright physical harm.[401] Surely at least one of us, if not two or even all three must have committed serious misconduct and ought to be sanctioned here. I can understand that admins want to avoid a thorny issue that requires digging into deep and year-old mud with many diffs. But something needs to happen here.

In a more serious vein, the backdrop to these behavioral issues is the current conflict in much of the Horn of Arica, which is currently tearing the country of Ethiopia apart. Wikipedia created a discretionary sanctions notice that, as an example, admin Doug Weller recently placed in Mfactor's talk page[402] - a message he already received in January 2021 from Boud and deleted in April,[403] believing that it did not apply to the likes of him. The intention of the DSN is to keep the animosities that currently run between ethnic nationalists of the various groups, particularly the Amhara people, the Oromo people and the Tigrayans, off the pages of Wikipedia, and to ensure NPOV content on all related pages. This has been difficult enough over the last few years, but the increasing tensions attract more and more editors that want to tell the truth as they see it, and on as many pages as they can reach. MfactDr is one of them, giving us his version of the story from the Oromo nationalist perspective, with a currently strong anti-Amharic bias. If Wikipedia is really serious about the discretionary sanctions notice, it needs to act when people blatantly and repeatedly ignore it, in the face of several warnings. MfactDr, in spite of my earlier hopes, currently shows no signs of toning down his POV editing. If at the end of this process nothing happens, he will feel vindicated and even encouraged to continue as he did before. LandLing 21:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Borsoka and User:Fakirbakir

Borsoka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Fakirbakir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'd like to talk about a user I've been paying attention for some time now. The user in question is Borsoka, at first glance, a well respected and active contributor. He spends most of the time writing articles related to Hungarian history. However he also seems to have a particular interest in Romanian history too, being extremely active on many of the most important Romanian history articles. What started ringing alarm bells is when I noticed that this interest is heavily focused on topics that are highly sensitive in the context of Hungarian irredentism and a clear WP:NAT style of editing.

Borsoka is engaged in large-scale revisionism of Romanian history articles on Wikipedia with the help of a support network, but has mostly managed to stay under the radar and evade punishment. I'm not the first to notice his shady behaviour, he's been reported many times before [404][405] [406] [407] [408] [409] [410] [411] [412] [413] [414] [415] [416], most of those times for POV pushing, but either nothing happens or he only receives a slap on the wrist. The thing is, Borsoka is actually a great writer and a profilic contributor, and adds a great deal of quality historical content to Wikipedia. That however, doesn't excuse manipulating historical articles to reflect a nationalist agenda.

The subtle stuff: WP:NPOV and WP:CHERRYPICKING

Usually, Borsoka finds an article about Romanian history, mass deletes content from it, including sourced content, by claiming WP:OR or WP:POV. He then starts removing any information that would suggest Romanians lived north of the Danube before the Hungarians arrived (the "continuity theory"). Afterwards, he starts rewriting the article and subtly adding in things that would suggest that Romanians originate from somewhere south of the Danube instead, and migrated north after the Hungarians (the "immigrationism theory"). Currently there's not enough evidence to prove either one of these theories.

Supporting either theory isn't by itself a bad thing. But systematically editing history articles to make them support your theory is not.

Some examples of him doing this by cherrypicking, inserting doubt, editorializing etc:

  1. Suggesting Romanian was viewed as 'semi-Romance' [417]
  2. Suggesting Romanian was viewed as a Slavic language [418] [419] [420]
  3. Suggesting Romanian comes from Balkan or Slavic language instead of coming from Vulgar Latin [421]
  4. Suggesting Latin words were not inherited directly but somehow "mediated" through Slavic [422] (and reverting back to a previous vandalism)
  5. Changing what the source says - the substrate in the source is listed as Thracian-Dacian, first he removes it then changes it to unidentified [423][424]
  6. Changing what the source says - "North-Danube Romanians" changed to "Balkan Vlachs on the left bank of the Danube" [425]
  7. Sneaking in doubt disguised as copyediting:
    "Hungarian documents prove that the Romanians held lands in Transylvania" changed to
    "Hungarian documents prove that the Romanians were thought to have held lands in Transylvania" [426]
  8. Removing newer work from a reliable author if it contradicts immigrationism, saying it's WP:OR [427] (despite him also citing older work from the same author elsewhere in the article)
  9. Citing constantly a linguist with fringe theories (such as Yiddish comes from Slavic) [428]

There are countless edits like these, way too many to list here.

An example of how he completely rewrites articles to subtly support immigrationist theory: a relatively obscure article about a tribe called 'Bolohoveni' or 'Volohoveni' which some assume to be 'Vlachs'(Romanians) living somewhere around southern Ukraine, while others assume to be Slavs. Romanians living that far north is problematic for immigrationist theory so he decides to rewrite the whole article depicting the Volohoveni as Slavs while removing most (but not all) Romanian references to them: He starts by marking everything with WP:OR, removes historical references because they mention "Vlachs" who are according to him completely different from "Bolokhoveni", adds new information from sources which argue they were Slavs, gradually removes all the previous sourced content. He cherrypicks information carefully to hide a Vlach presence in the area: he correctly quotes the source which explains why it's doubtful the Bolohoveni were Vlachs, but completely ignores the parts right before and after where the author states there also were Romance-speaking enclaves and a numerous Romanian population in the area.

Another easy to spot example of cherrypicking to push WP:FRINGE: he cites an interpretation of a Franciscan diplomat who believed Vlachs are a nomadic migrant population coming from Eurasia, while completely ignoring all the context surrounding it, where the author describes how this interpretation is used as the basis of a new feeble and aberrant theory on the origin of Romanians.

The not-so-subtle stuff: WP:NAT and whitewashing Hungarian history

Other times it's much worse than just subtle edits. The article Decree of Turda is about a law that was passed that discriminated against Romanians and over time led to even worse ethnic laws being implemented. In 2014, the article was much longer before Borsoka started editing it.

He removes the part describing that it discriminates towards Romanians along with the sources: The decree takes an explicitly negative view of Romanians: propter presumptuosam astuciam diversorum malefactorum, specialiter Olachorum[1] in ipsa terra nostra existencium (…) ad exterminandum seu delendum in ipsa terra malefactores quarumlibet nacionum, signanter Olachorum [2] - because of the evil arts of many malefactors, especially Romanians, who live in that our country (…) to expel or to exterminate in this country malefactors belonging to any nation, especially Romanians.
And rewrites the whole paragraph to paint the Hungarian, Szekler and Saxon noblemen as the actual victims: The latter had informed the King that they "have been suffering, day by day, many troubles because of the evil arts of many malefactors, especially Romanians, because of their way of being and their disorderly behaviour". The royal decree granted special privileges to the Transylvanian noblemen "in order to remove, from this country, malefactors belonging to any nation, especially Romanians". For this purpose, the decree determines the rules of the legal procedure. He uses WP:OR again as an excuse and removes all the negative effects the decree had.

On the talk page he diverts accusations of WP:NPOV by saying things like "For instance, we should present the POV, that the decree of Torda/Turda proves that the sudden appearance of a migrating population (the Vlachs) among the sedentary Saxons and Hungarians made the adopiton of special laws necessary" . Literally excusing discrimination and pushing immigrationist theory in the same sentence [429].

Despite him trying to dismiss or downplay this decree, the author, a reliable source that he frequently cites, writes extensively about the discrimination of Romanians at that time: :"Gradually, after 1351-1366 and 1437, Romanians lost their status as an estate and were excluded from Transylvania’s assemblies. The main reason was religion [...] As seen above, even in the Middle Ages the Romanians were held inferior, being “schismatic”, subject to the new masters, excluded from offices and restricted to a local level. [...] The Romanians’ inferior status began to be more and more obvious in the Transylvanian Diets’ decisions (laws) [...] the Romanian could not appeal to justice against Hungarians and Saxons, but the latter could turn in the Romanian (1552)" [430]

Then for the next 7 years, from 2014 to 2021, he reverts every single person who attempts to add back the information he removed or any other new information.

He also mass deletes entire sections related to this decree in another article over and over again all the way from 2012 until a few days ago [431][432][433][434][435][436][437][438][439][440][441][442][443] always giving OR as a reason. He's extremely dedicated to this.

Another example is where he whitewashes the same subject by trying to blank the entire section about Hungary in the Anti-Romanian sentiment page not once, but twice. [444] [445]

WP:CANVASSING to get out of trouble

Borsoka has a support network that helps him push Hungarian nationalist POV and maintain control of pages. The primary users most involved in this are User:Fakirbakir, User:Norden1990, User:Koertefa and now banned User:KIENGIR, who was much more disruptive than the other four and engaged in more obvious vandalism. KIENGIR was the first I interacted with when I spotted him reverting users over and over to keep a nonsensical section up and removed it. He then used the same tactics as Borsoka: reverting and stonewalling. It turned me off Wikipedia for a while. I recently came back and noticed KIENGIR received a ban, and by looking at his contribution history to find vandalism is how I stumbled on Borsoka and the others.

They help each other get out of trouble:

When Borsoka is reported, Fakirbakir, Koertefa and Norden1990 show up to defend him. [446]. When Norden1990 is reported, Fakirbakir and Borsoka show up to defend him. [447].
There are plenty of instances of this: Borsoka defending Norden1990 [448], [449], Borsoka supporting KIENGIR [450], Koertefa defending Fakirbakir [451], Fakirbakir defending Borsoka [452], Fakirbakir defending KIENGIR. [453], Fakirbakir defending Norden1990 [454], [455], Koertefa supporting Norden1990 [456].

There have been previous instances where they've been reported together including for canvassing: Borsoka and Fakirbakir, Fakirbakir, Koertefa and Norden1990 Koertefa, Borsoka, Fakirbakir and Norden1990, Fakirbakir, Norden1990, Borsoka. While they aren't sockpuppets they work together regularly and other reports cover pretty well how they're involved in canvassing.

The support network that helps him WP:OWN articles

They maintain control of important articles by reverting the changes of others, and achieving consensus in Talk pages. Borsoka's most edited article is Origin of the Romanians with 1,278 edits. [457]. This is a highly controversial article because it's central to both theories and the talk page has many users complaining about NPOV. It's often the target of both Romanian and Hungarian nationalists, but somehow Borsoka seems to somehow maintain control with 85.6% of the content being authored by him, the next biggest contributor having only 1.8%. He does this by constantly reverting and rewriting the edits of others and resorting to stonewalling on the Talk page when challenged and achieving consensus with the help of his support network (on this page, Fakirbakir and until recently, KIENGIR).

A very clear example of canvassing: Borsoka mass deletes huge sections of a article he doesn't like by citing OR. [458][459]. After getting reverted twice, he mass deletes a third time [460], except this time Fakirbakir suddenly appears 3 hours later on an article he's never edited before and makes several positive edits, making it harder to revert Borsoka's deletions. It's hard to assume good faith when he purposefully enlists the help of others to mass delete content.

Civil POV pushing

The talk pages of his articles on Romanian language or history are always filled with the usual: citations not matching the sources, cherrypicking, fringe and POV. The way he responds to user criticism is a classic case of WP:SEALION. If they question the text, he points to the sources. If they question the sources he tells them to find sources which state otherwise. If they find any, they're unreliable or original research. He always makes sure to always appear civil: "thank you for your time", "thank you for your suggestions", "thank you for your remarks" ... then completely ignores what they said. If accused of an agenda, he doesn't have one, [461] but he has openly admitted before that "immigrationist theory is more compatible with facts" [462].

And that way, he maintains a stranglehold on many important articles in this category (for example: [463] [464] [465] [466] [467] and many more).

As a user who barely contributes, I'm aware that I don't have a lot of credibility making huge accusations against someone with countless awards and a prolific contribution history, and on top of it all, it's a touchy subject. But I felt that the amount of misinformation being spread is truly massive, and it required some serious attention so I tried to compile enough evidence to show the extent of the problem. It's pretty clear that he has a strong incentive to push a specific POV in important articles about Romanian history.

I think a temporary 6 month topic ban for Borsoka and Fakirbakir on any articles which primarily concern Romanian history would be warranted, which would give some other editors a chance to fix those articles a bit without getting hit with waves of repeated reverts and stonewalling. The other two haven't been involved in editing Romanian history lately, so I don't think there's any need to take action. OUT 20:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Congratulations, you may have set a new record.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Bbb23, I read every word of it, and I would like a neutral editor with knowledge of Eastern European history to make an informed comment. Cullen328Let's discuss it 01:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, I do not want to comment on this lengthy thread. Borsoka (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Cullen328: as you read every word of the above report, you may want to check the edit history of the articles on which I allegedly maintain "a stranglehold". Actually, I have not edited most of them for years. Indeed, I extensively edited them 7-9 years ago and as a consequence two of them (Romania in the Early Middle Ages and Romania in the Middle Ages) were promoted to GA. A third article (Founding of Moldavia) was heavily edited by other editors after I stopped editing it (actually, it should be rewritten to provide a neutral picture). As to canvassing, I can state that all my interections with other editors are transparent. If you need further information, I can comment on other baseless accusations as well. However, are you sure we should discuss accusations made by an editor who has never edited the articles to which he refers, but is well aware of their edit history? Borsoka (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
It's another boring stream of words from an unambiguous sockpuppet: three months ago, roughly the same baseless accusations were formulated in the same style by another relatively passive "editor" User:Cealicuca, regarding eight to ten years old contributions. Maybe a sockpuppet investigation would be useful, I suspect identification with long-time abuser User:Iaaasi. I would be very happy if these frustrated reports from "false" editors ceased, I do not have the time and desire to deal with such anti-Hungarian nonsense. --Norden1990 (talk) 09:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Agree, I also assume that the whole report was written by Iaaasi. He has regularly hired editors through emails to act on his behalf. @Tgeorgescu: what do you think? Borsoka (talk) 10:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Deflecting blame to me doesn't mean that all your actions suddenly go away. I've had this account for a very long time and never used another one, and I'm more than happy to welcome any sockpuppet investigation. OUT 10:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I am a Romanian, but not a nationalist. The gist of this dispute: the Romanian nationalists want 100% wiki-victory, while the Hungarian nationalists made peace with the idea that the wiki-match will end in a draw.
About Slavic language vs. Latin language: yes, most words are Slavic, but the basic vocabulary is Latin. So, both claims about the Romanian language are true to some extent. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Just a side remark: I have never stated that Romanian is a Slavic language. Borsoka (talk) 11:42, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Yup, and as you told once there is a difference between discriminating against Romanian peasants and (ethnic) requirements for becoming a noble. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, I cannot remember what you are referring to above. As far as I know there were no ethnic requirements for nobility in Hungary. Religion could be barrier, because Jews were not ennobled, and for a short period in a small region only Catholics could be awarded with nobility under Louis the Great. Borsoka (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Tgeorgescu: most words are Slavic? Do you mind explaining? As far as I'm aware and every linguist in the world is concerned, Slavic makes up 10-15%, not "most" of Romanian. As for the discrimination, Ioan-Aurel Pop writes about it being a serious thing multiple times in the source I linked. The decree's effects weren't limited just to nobility, contrary to what Borsoka is claiming.
Yup, not counting neologisms. Anyway, the gist is that Romanian nationalists are more fanatical and more misbehaving in their claim they have WP:THETRUTH than Hungarian nationalists. It's not their POV which is a problem, but their behavior.
I have to tell you that in many Western countries Romanian language is taught together with Slavic languages (at faculty level). tgeorgescu (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Just a side remark: I have never stated that the "decree" (I assume the Decree of Torda/Turda) was limited to the nobility. Borsoka (talk) 13:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I conflated you with someone else:

such like second class citizenship did not exist in the country, the rights of the nobles were different than the peasants, regardless, of ethnicity, etc.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

About WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT: I have seen enough walls of text from Romanian nationalists and these walls promise nothing good. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I noticed a pattern of behaviour that's worrying and thought to bring it to the attention of admins. Not sure what the walls of text of past Romanian nationalists have to do with me or any future reports though. Like I said, I'm open to any investigation but for the time being I'd just like to focus on Borsoka instead of the constant deflecting. The regular subtle changes to promote immigrationism he does might not be damning, but mass removals of sourced text? I don't see how that's constructive, especially when it's done for whitewashing. Also, regarding language, even if not counting neologisms, Slavic words still don't make up "most" of the language. OUT 16:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, the POV of the Romanian nationalists is this: if they do not engage in full-blown nationalist propaganda, Romania will lose Transylvania any time soon. I'm not saying that either nationalist side is right; I am saying that Hungarian nationalists learned to behave and they integrated fine in the system of Wikipedia Community, while all Romanian nationalists who posted WP:WALLS in the past got either indeffed or topic-banned. Those walls are their modus operandi. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You may want to comment on the relevant article's Talk page about the "mass removal of sourced text". I do not remember any case of whitewashing. Borsoka (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
So, what I am telling to Romanian nationalists isn't Hungarian nationalists are right, but: learn to behave and become integrated into our Borg hive mind. So, a side is well-behaved and integrated, while the other side shoots itself in the foot time after time. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
My last comment was to focus specifically on the examples I gave instead of deflection and instead I just get more talk about sides, nationalists and other users. OUT 18:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
My point: such approach failed time after time. What makes you think it will succeed this time? Also, the WP:MEAT evidence is pretty damning: not only writing WP:WALLS, but also writing style, e.g. use of bold letters and other sorts of headings, which are rather unusual at Wikipedia.
It's either too many bold letters or all caps (shouting): [468], [469]. Seems copy/pasted from a nationalist propaganda website.
Oh, yes, I forgot: WP:BOOMERANG, meaning the complainer is not exempted from criticism.
I think it is an well-established fact that extreme right publications abuse bold letters or all caps. Anyway, among intellectuals such abuse is not appreciated, see e.g. https://www.asice.se/index.php/tep/guidelinestgeorgescu (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You know what, you're right. I'm a full-blown extreme-right nationalist meatpuppet despite never having edited history pages or pushed views like these before. I noticed POV pushing and made sure I compile a detailed list because I don't believe throwing around accusations without evidence but that's much less believable than the absolute damning evidence of me using bold.
I retract this whole report. It was clearly a waste of time thinking I could come here to receive independent review of a consistent pattern of abuse. OUT 19:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
All I am saying: such reports have been made before, and your writing style has similarities with such past reports. See also https://people.ok.ubc.ca/rlawrenc/teaching/writingTips.html
Also, for an editor with 61 edits in article space and 8 edits in article talk space, you must have paid an incredible amount of research effort for edits that happened since many years ago, or else you have showed it off. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, it must take a true detective to notice a pattern here. Anyway like I said, I'm retracting the report so you can stop beating a dead horse.
Please sign your messages. Please also read the article's talk page to understand the reasoning of the changes if you want to make others believe that you are a "true detective". I also suggest that before filing a report completed by a banned user you should check its factual accuracy. For instance, an editor who has not edited an article for years could hardly be accused of owning it. Borsoka (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
They have reverted a lot of additions actually says nothing (we all did). tgeorgescu (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

User:GeneralLeeStudiosOfficial

New disruption-only account. Contribs are self-explanatory. Could an admin please block and if needed revdel? Thanks, Levivich 03:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure anything needs revdel'ed, but the user has been blocked. —C.Fred (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! (I'm not sure anything needs revdel either, I never know exactly where that threshold is.) Levivich 03:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

User: Maurice Mo Jordan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maurice Mo Jordan (talk · contribs)

This user keeps trying to discuss a editing issue on my talk page. Despite me telling him/her what the issues are with their posts (and no matter how many times they get BLANKED) they keep coming back. At issue are edits made on the Three Tramps page:[470]. Forgetting the RS issues, this guy keeps trying to discuss this on my talk page (rather than the Tramps talk page), without signing their posts or even bothering to read about what things like RS are. If a admin could speak to them, I'd appreciate it. Regards.Rja13ww33 (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

At least the editor is trying to discuss the issue. Rja13ww33 you should start a discussion at the articles talk page and ping the editor to discuss. Maybe that will get them off your talk page. Jerm (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
There is such a discussion on the Tramps page: [471]. This user is ignoring it. It's clear this person does not know how to edit. Here are some samples: [472] [473]. I mean come on....I am a tolerant guy but this is nuts. He/she isn't even trying to post properly.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
And by the way, I've told the user several times on my talk page [474] where to post these issues. It's like I am talking to a brick wall with him/her.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Damn, there goes my ideal. You've tried to guide the editor, but the editor doesn't want to continue discussing the issue on the article talk page. Instead, Maurice Mo Jordan has bombarded your talk page. An admin should either send a warning to the editor for a possible block if they don't stick with the articles talk page or go straight for the block. Other than that, I see no other way to resolve this matter. Jerm (talk) 01:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Hopefully a warning (from a admin) will be sufficient to wake him/her up.Rja13ww33 (talk) 02:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Well as it stands I don't really know how to correctly post to Wiki, I posted something to the Zodiac channel and that one was fine but again, I honestly have no idea how to comment on these sites and I have zero idea how to add that little end tag I see on both your post. There is nothing I see that makes this easy or understand able. The issue I have is this which is clearly stated.

In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations reported that forensic anthropologists had again analyzed and compared the photographs of the "tramps" with those of Hunt and Sturgis, as well as with photographs of Thomas Vallee, Daniel Carswell, and Fred Lee Crisman.[8] According to the Committee, only Crisman resembled any of the tramps; but the same Committee determined that he was not in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination.[8]

While I disagree with Hunt (cause I think it could be him) the committee states, "only Crisman resembled ANY of the tramps; but the same Committee determined that he was not in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination." So what does this mean? It means they didn't identify ANYONE, yet all those side by sides remain up, even though they were dismissed it would seem. So when I have an assumption that Roscoe White might be one of the 3 Tramps, it gets removed over and over and over again. Does this make sense or sound fair at all? Considering they clearly state they didn't identify anyone, yet those post remain up. I basically posted that Roscoe White might be one of the Tramps, it gets removed and I'm sorry but this doesn't seem right or fair at all. So yes, I got a little annoyed. Sorry about that.

Anyway, sorry I don't know how to put the end tag line on, it's kind of hard to understand. Not sure how to work Wiki. Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Maurice Mo Jordan Once you've finished typing your response, type the four tiles "~~~~" then "Publish changes". That will develop your signature. Jerm (talk) 02:36, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch Jerm, that helped a lot... So what do you think of all this? Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 04:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Maurice Mo Jordan Before I elaborate, I just want you to know that this notice board (WP:ANI) is meant to report disruptive/inappropriate behaviour of an editor, not resolving content disputes. The issue is, you have been constantly messaging Rja13ww33 on their user talk page about content pertaining to Three tramps. User talk pages are not meant for discussing content of an article which is why Rja13ww33 was constantly removing your messages on their talk page and trying to point to you the appropriate talk page which is the article talk page, and in this particular case, it's Talk:Three tramps. You did start a discussion on the article talk page: Talk:Three_tramps#Carswell but left it and started continuously messaging Rja13ww33 on their talk page. Please, you need to return to the article talk page for discussing content. Do not continue to message Rja13ww33 about content on their talk page. That is all Rja13ww33 is asking for and it would be the appropriate thing for you to do. Jerm (talk) 04:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Maurice Mo Jordan I also want to add that you need to fill out the edit summary every time you make a change to an article or any other page before you "Publish changes". Jerm (talk) 05:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again Jerm, this helped. Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 08:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Is an admin going to act on this or what? This joker clearly doesn't have a clue what they are doing: [475]. Enough is enough.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continued edit warring by User:David-dalus

This user has continued to edit war on the The Secret of NIMH dispute being warned, twice.

Their edits ([480], [481] and [482]) are identical to edits made by various IPs ([483], [484]. [485]) and are likely the same person. The article was protected in on June 28 due to vandalism by the IP and they clearly created a user ID so they could get passed the lock.

The edits concern the "....which ends with the dying Sullivan killing Jenner and saving Justin's life". The user has continued to remove the bolded line dispute being given this justification for its inclusion and has refused to explain themselves or discuss at the talk page. LittleJerry (talk) 22:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It might be worth reporting them to WP:AN3. MiasmaEternalTALK 09:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

SiddhaAS

SiddhaAS (talk · contribs) has been warned multiple times (or just User_talk:SiddhaAS#June_2021), including final warnings this month [486], [487]. They have continued to add unsourced material [488], [489]. Desite 500+ edits, they have only edited a talk page when forced to because of ECP protection and never edited a user talk page. At this point, a block is needed. Two requests [490], [491] where left on AIV yesterday but both timed out. This editor is a time-sink for other editors, this needs to stop. Ravensfire (talk) 14:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Support block Despite multiple warnings, the editor doesn’t communicate/respond to the warnings or stop adding unsourced content. Jerm (talk) 14:47, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Just want to add, the editor does mobile editing but doesn’t use the Android app, so it should be much easier to respond to messages. Any thoughts on this? Even now, I’m using my phone to add this message but the desktop version of Wikipedia. Jerm (talk) 15:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Partial block from mainspace until they start discussing? That would get them to a talk page, presumably. Levivich 15:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
    Levivich, That might help. They clearly know how to use a talk page when forced there [492]. This may be a good first option, but if they continue to ignore concerns, the block would need to swiftly change to a full block. Ravensfire (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Continuing today - [493], [494] - based on the lack of admin replies, I'm assuming the answer is stop worrying and love unsourced editing? Ravensfire (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Partial block. I've blocked the user indefinitely from article space, with a link to this discussion. Bishonen tålk 16:02, 25 July 2021 (UTC).

Uncommunicative editor replacing logos and wordmarks with photos in infoboxes with photos

Omolarabasirat‎ is replacing logos, wordmarks, and seals with photos in infoboxes (e.g., University of San Francisco‎, Phillips Academy, Citibank). Two editors, including myself, have left several messages in his or her User Talk page to ask for explanations about these edits (and the many, many other edits he or she is making to add images to articles) but he or she has not responded in any way. This editor is adding, and in some casing replacing, images to many articles quite rapidly. Some of the edits may be helpful but replacing appropriate and helpful images in infoboxes and ignoring all attempts at discussion is disruptive and needs to stop; please temporarily block this editor until he or she communicates with us. ElKevbo (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

This is related to a thread above ("Users adding images to articles at a high rate of speed") but this specific editor needs to be blocked now to prevent further obvious disruption. This is not a general concern about the use of these edit summaries and this contest but a specific problem with a specific editor. ElKevbo (talk) 17:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Blocked 31 hours per my explanation above. --Rschen7754 17:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Legal Threat by IP

The ip User:103.211.190.133 had made a legal threat on my talk page when raising issues regarding a content dispute. [495] and [496]. While one of the comments has since been removed [497], the ip still has left the comment that I have violated some law in India. Chariotrider555 (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I have blocked Special:contributions/103.211.190.0/23 for three months.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Problem edits to Nepenthes species articles by User:Nrajah587

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nrajah587 has made a recent series of edits to Nepenthes species articles (and a few others). Some of the edits are vandalism, for example: 1, 2, 3, 4. Another addition is likely a hoax with a made-up reference. Many Nepenthes are endangered, in one article the editor claims to be protecting their location. In another, which I won't post directly here, the location was withheld by the botanists concerned, but this editor added a location. A reference this editor has added to some edits is The Tropical Pitcher Plants (Vol. 2) by McPherson. However, according to the publisher's site, these books are currently available for pre-order and no page numbers are provided in such references.

In summary, the contributions by this editor appear to be mainly a combination of vandalism and misinformation. In edit summaries, the editor often asserts that they are "correcting" existing content based on sources and information available to themselves. I'm not sure that such assertions can be accepted at face value given the high proportion of misleading and vandalising edits. Thanks, Declangi (talk) 00:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly a very bizarre combination of subtle vandalism and outright trolling. They are doing a rather nuanced job of mimicking an editor who is simply pushing WP:OR in one edit, and then in the next, they are adding sophomoric "butt"/"gay" jokes to similar articles, and then in the next they are mixing the two types of disruption. It really is quite strange and technically involved vandalism, but ultimately I am inclined to agree with you: I think the whole body of the disruption is just one big convoluted effort at trolling. So, for what it's worth, I endorse a WP:NOTHERE block and suggest that even their non-disruptive-seeming edits should be reverted, where the assertions cannot be independently verified with sourcing by other editors. Snow let's rap 02:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Blocked. Indefinite. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 08:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks to you both. @Snow Rise: I've now reviewed all of the editor's changes and almost all ended up needing to be reverted. I did this on an article-by-article basis with hopefully some useful details in the edit summaries. I notified WikiProject Plants and one editor there has already conducted their own, very useful review. Declangi (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Wonderful work: thanks to you and the other editor for taking that chore on, Declangi. Snow let's rap 03:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harrassment

Hi

A banned user from fr:wiki insulted me again here after 2019. --Panam2014 (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked one month for personal attacks. Daniel (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Kavkas dubious edits with a nationalist nature, same stance as sockpuppets which vandalised the page previously

User:Kavkas is vandalising and falsifying history on Ingush people and Ingushetia. He has reverted and spammed the previous correct version from the 6th July. The current version of those 2 pages look to me like blog-entries which usually would be encountered on nationalist forums. Examples of falsified history >under the pretext of defense of lowland Ingush people from vassal Chechen, Kabardin, Dagestan and Nogai attacks, which were orchestrated by Russia<, >After multiple losses of Imam Shamil at the end of Caucasian War, Russians and Chechens unify their forces< and >Strabo first mentions Geli, or Galgai in his reference to a nation in the center of the Caucasus< (the Geli are confirmed to be the Scythian tribe Gelae, which doesn't stop Kavkas from pushing the narrative that the Geli are the modern Ingush, see here). Now to some of his accusiations against me: here he claims I "threaten" him while trying to involve me into a political/ethnical conflict and claims my "hatred toward the Ingush people is obvious". He also mentions "both North Ossetia and Chechnya seek to further carve up Ingushetia between the two republics, with backing from the Russian federal government (...) along with other forms of propaganda", which (claiming my edits are state-sponsored) is something previous sockpuppets have done, see this sockpuppet. The full archived investigation and list of sockpuppets can be found here. Another example of his similar/same stance as the sockpuppets. I hope the issue can be fixed and the articles return to a neutral state. ~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2021

All my sources are referenced from American, English, Russian, German etc. neutral sites who have nothing to do with Ingush people or Ingushetia. "After multiple losses of Imam Shamil at the end of Caucasian War, Russians and Chechens unify their forces" these are Russian Evdokimov's words not mine. Geli as Ghalghai as Ingush mentioned by O.W. Wahl in 1875 in his book "The Land of the Czar" page 239 mentioned "These two opinions mentioned by Strabo come after all to the same point ; for the Legi are the modern Lesghi, and the Geli the Ingush tribe Galgai, and the Keraunian Mountains are the northern ranges of the Caucasus as far as the Beshtaú."[1] The same statement about Gelia being Ingush was made by a German professor Karl Koch in 1843 in his book "Reise durch Russland nach dem kaukasischen Isthmus" page 489.[2] Jacobus Van Wijk Roelandszoon, Jacobus van Wijk (Roelandszoon) in 1821 book "Algemeen aardrijkskundig woordenboek volgens de nieuwste staatkundige veranderingen, en de laatste, beste en zekerste berigten" page 1050 also mention that Gelli or Gelad are the Ingush people which is mentioned by Zonaras.[3] Stop your personal anti-Ingush attacks. Kavkas (talk) 10:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "The Land of the Czar". Wahl. 1875. Retrieved 2014-02-28.
  2. ^ "Reise durch Russland nach dem kaukasischen Isthmus". Karl Koch. 1843. Retrieved 2014-02-28.
  3. ^ "Algemeen aardrijkskundig woordenboek volgens de nieuwste staatkundige veranderingen, en de laatste, beste en zekerste berigten". Jacobus van Wijk. 1821. Retrieved 2014-02-28.
You have cherrypicked information from your sources, which are not the best sources to begin with. So you're telling me that the Chechens and Russians unify their forces after waging war against eachother for 100 years to fight against the Ingush, which voluntarily joined Russia in 1770 and signed a treaty to protect Russias interest by fighting against the enemies of Russia (Chechens and Karabulak) in 1810? Koch and Wahl are clearly in the wrong while trying to put pieces together. This should be quite obvious, especially when Koch claims that the Ingush live in the Western parts of Dagestan. Their information is purely hypothetical. There are hypothesis about the Ingush coming from India and Armenia, things like this don't belong on Wikipedia. The Geli Strabo mentions are universally agreed to be the Scythian Gelea. There is no strong connection nor proof that he was referring to the Ingush, whos selfname "Galga" only formed in the past 500 years. Your edits contain several texts without any sources found in the "Prehistory and early history of Ingush people" section, these include texts of Ingush fighting of Mongol hordes, some ambassador named "Loamaro-keristi", "Georgia completely integrated into Russia, the only “hostile nation” in the Caucasus are Ingush" and my personal favorite one where you outright claim Mongols named their subgroup "Khalkha" after the Ingush nation due to how "Impressed" they were. This is outright ridiculous and does not belong on Wikipedia. ~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 22:49, 26 July 2021

Devranzio

Devranzio (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribslogsfilter logblock userblock log) reverted results from Olympic badminton pages, even after I warned him. Flix11 (talk) 11:36, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bbb23: He is using 180.252.29.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) now. Flix11 (talk) 11:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Legal threat from new user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As per this. May also be delusional too (or trolling), based on Talk page response. Either way, this looks like a block is needed. --IJBall (contribstalk) 05:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

lblocked. El_C 05:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Talk page access revoked for continuing with legal threats after the block. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 11:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Oops, I thought I did that. Thanks, HighInBC. El_C 12:25, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Potato concerned about pumpkins

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Potato geography politics (talk) 11:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC) this is involving [[498]] they have discriminated repeatedly with warnings on the wiki page "pumpkin" - Potato geography politics

also im going to bed so i wont be able to respond for a while

The countries mentioned already had wikilinks elsewhere in the text. Wikilinking every single mention of the country is WP:OVERLINK so I think that Favonian was correct to revert and I don't believe that they need to be blocked. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 11:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok but what he was doing was discriminating because he was indirectly saying “hey your country doesn’t deserve a link” which is discrimination and against Wikipedia rules - potato geography politics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Potato geography politics (talkcontribs) 11:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Not much I can add to Spiderone's assessment, but would someone with diplomatic skills more developed that mine please tell the OP about Wikipedia's policy regarding personal attacks? Favonian (talk) 11:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Potato geography politics, nonsense. Favonian was absolutely not saying that. Favonian was saying you need to abide by WP:OVERLINK. There's no reason to link every single instance of a country, you normally would just link the first instance. I very, very strongly suggest you apologise and drop your complaint. Your complaint is completely unfounded, Favonian was correct and was trying to be helpful to you, and you should take the time to read and understand WP:OVERLINK. --Yamla (talk) 11:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok first my name includes politics so if anyone knows about diplomacy, it’s me and it’s not overlink it’s not too many links and their policy regarding personal attacks the first thing it says is the DEFINITION of discrimination and I said he is INDIRECTLY saying country no deserve link and it’s very offensive to people that live in those countries also I added links to things that actually needed it like thanksgiving which In Many countries isn’t a thing so they need it - potato geography politics

Also I am fine to just accept an apology now. That is generous for this much discrimination -potato geography politics

I have blocked this user indefinitely. WP:NOTHERE, WP:CIR, WP:IDHT, whatever. --Yamla (talk) 12:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Good block, and I have the feeling we're being trolled here anyway. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Yamla: Is this a sockpuppet of user:Cheese editor by any chance? Adding wikilinks to countries in the Pumpkin article was something that cheese editor was doing before being blocked for socking as User:Dairy editor[499] and i find it odd that nother editor would show up to make the same kinds of edits to the same article [500][501][502]. The username, edit summaries, use of visual editor and article overlap all seem eerily familiar. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 13:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Possible, based on technical evidence. I've tagged the account as a suspected sock. While the technical evidence isn't conclusive, I strongly think you are correct, on behavioural grounds. --Yamla (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(I protest. This thread grossly unfair toward those with pumpkins for heads. --The Headless Horseman --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC))
They seem to be continuing the disruptive editing with a couple of IP socks now - 49.182.35.133 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 117.20.70.207 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). 192.76.8.91 (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Vandalism on various economy pages

There seems to be multiple pages being vandalized I.E changes being made with no RS, these pages include Economy of Kolkata, Economy of Chittagong, Economy of West Bengal, Economy of Delhi, Economy of Mumbai. Some of these pages have been semi protected but it doesn't seem to be working as the editors are confirmed. Tommi1986 let's talk! 13:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that; I blocked one who'd already been warned several times about changing content without a reliable source, and warned several others. The tricky part is restoring to the "good" versions; at least one of the government sources being used is not in English. In any case, I'd agree with you that extended confirmed protection is probably warranted, but it would be great if we could find a trusted editor with better knowledge of that subject area to help suss out a properly-sourced stable version of each beforehand.OhNoitsJamie Talk 14:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Ohnoitsjamie: I'm not sure what is the good version myself either, I have tried to go through the sources, but as you say some are not in English and some (from what I can see, I may be wrong) do not seem to contain the information that the source is meant to support. Tommi1986 let's talk! 14:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Legal threats at the talk page of the BLP article Prabhas

Hello. Administrator's attention needed at Talk:Prabhas. On 20 July, TanyaSri complained about the poorly written personal life section along with potential legal suits. I have removed the content entirely until further discussion takes place. Today, PROChach has requested to remove a few images and also added that "As per Indian Penal Code Section 464, criminal proceedings are filed against those , who falsely charges any person and who mishandle Prabhas Wikipedia with manipulative subject and images." Notifying here per WP:NLT. Regards -- Ab207 (talk) 15:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated insults, WP:AGF violations, edit-warring by 213.172.123.242

213.172.123.242 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who was blocked by @Ymblanter: for vandalism by earlier this month, frequently insults other editors when they disagree with them and edit-wars. Diffs and links:

I think that is enough material to warrant a block. Robby.is.on (talk) 18:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

[505] "You are a full flown complete special idiot". Note that I am not a fan of the behavior of Klõps either, who is not interested in looking for consensus, and would revert any mention that Estonia in 1940-90 was part of Soviet Union multiple times until their opponents get exhausted.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
More was added to my Talk page after my report, and then removed [506]: "O. k. Then block me, aßhole. Wikiepedia is fucked up, anyway. Idiot." "Du deutsches Asshol. Sheisz drauf" Robby.is.on (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
(non-admin comment) Not a native German-speaker by the look of it (WP:BEANS applies). Narky Blert (talk) 15:34, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Since the IP tried to alter User:Robby.is.on's comments here, I think that some sort of escalating block is in order - after all they do appear to be literally asking to be blocked.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The IP just recently had a 1 week block for vandalism. I've given them 2 weeks for this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Celestina007

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't enjoy reading the ANI, let alone reporting an editor but it is antithetical to our goal of creating an online encyclopedia that anyone could freely edit in a collegial environment if we ignore conducts that are injurious on a large scale to our editors. User:Celestina007 is an experienced editor with interest in Nigeria-related topics and a "self-acclaimed UPE fighter". There is no doubt about her knowledge of Nigeria-related topics but her often unsubstantiated false accusation of UPE is concerning, worrisome and destructive to the project. I believe that something urgently needs to be done, as failure to act will give an impression that false accusations and similar behaviors are acceptable here. Today, Celestina007 tagged an article written by me in 2019 as UPE without evidence. When asked to substantiate their claim with evidences, they removed my comment without a response or any evidences whatsoever. However, I am not here because I was falsely accused of UPE but because this pattern of behavior from Celestina007 is disruptive on a large scale and should immediately stop. On closer review of this editor's contributions, I observed a large scale accusation of UPE without evidence and newbie bity.

Here are few examples of false accusation of UPE

All of the above examples are from July 1 alone but randomly looking at their talk page archive, it looks like a long-term problem that has gone unnoticed for years . While we appreciate users who are enthusiastic about Wikipedia, users with this behavioral pattern should never be tolerated here. Beeblebrox advised this user to find something else to do, while they responded to Beeblebrox, they failed to learn from the advise and continue to falsely accusing users of UPE. I'd leave this here to allow the community to determine whether the conducts of this user with regards to UPE accusations is right. UPE is a criminal offense at least in the United States per WP:UPE. False accusation of crime is serious and should be treated as such. Regards. SuperSwift (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment — Just Another day, with more disgruntled staging a siege against me. Even after both onel5969 & I told you here that the UPE template wasn’t intended for you , you somehow still tried and made it about you. We literally both told you the UPE tag wasn’t intended for you oh well. Furthermore this isn’t accurate as there is literally no dispute here. Celestina007 (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I also found Celestina007 to be acting in a way which was far too aggressive, even if the recipient of their messaging was an UPE. At User_talk:Totalpoliticsuk#Sockpuppetry_warning they accused the editor of insulting their intelligence, stated they would get the editor indefinitely blocked, and them to both "quit Fucking with me". Even if this user was an UPE I'd consider this too far. Whether this combative approach is effective at deterring actual UPEs or not - and I doubt it is - it lends itself to substantial collateral damage and the furthering of a hostile atmosphere on the project, which we should not tolerate. Sam Walton (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Samwalton9, correct and indeed otp, but this was me before getting advice to tone it down which I have to the best of my ability upheld. Celestina007 (talk) 21:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm glad that recognize that, Celestina, because frankly I find the behaviour in that thread beyond the pall for a volunteer workspace on this project. Your comments literally read like you think that you are a hardboiled detective from a 70's crime drama interrogating a criminal suspect: "Don’t you dare insult my intelligence, you know how it is, either you comply with our rules or I see to it that you get indef blocked" -> "quit Fucking with me." -> "Don’t push your luck.". Sam is absolutely correct: no matter how certain you are that you have ferreted out a COI editor--and frankly, I also have concerns at the level of self-assuredness you adopt on the basis of your evidence, but even assuming you are correct, the following principle holds--it does not abrogate your from responsibility for scrupulously following the standards of WP:CIVILITY, a pillar policy of this project. You are not the en.Wikipedia Special Prosecutor for Undisclosed Paid Editing and you need to drop this unnecessarily aggressive mentality.
Now, you say you've reformed your approach, and it's true that the thread Sam links above is the worst of what has been presented here, but it still looks like you come at editors with an air like you are cleaning up shop from some position of authority persists. Based just on what we have seen here, I think even at this early stage in oversight of your behaviour, I would support a topic ban for you relating to accusations of UPE; I do not think you have the right temperament to be active in this area on this project. Even if you were right about every single one of your suppositions (and again, I'm far from convinced by your reasoning in each of these cases), your approach is still highly flawed and inconsistent with the measured, impersonal, dispassionate approach that is both expected and most effective in COI review.
In short, I would seriously suggest you consider voluntarily backing away from this area: your own talk page suggests that you see the problem with actively seeking out ("hunting" as you put it) COI, and I think you need to take your own advice there, even as regards UPE you think you have spotted in the wild, as it were. You don't have to ignore what you consider problematic editing either: just consider taking yourself out of the equation by bringing these matters to WP:COIN or an admin when you think you have sufficient evidence to warrant examination, and ignoring your gut impressions in all other circumstances. I don't think I like your chances for avoiding a sanction if you just continue of the present course of grilling everyone you suspect of COI like they are just daring you to pull out the proverbial rubber hose. Snow let's rap 22:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Snow Rise, Snow, that is exactly what I’m saying that since June when I received advice from a functionary on how to handle suspected there I have made deliberate attempts to do just that, I pursue things through the proper channels via COIN and ANI, I have filed at least one report at each venue this month. rather than confront the situation as I would have done prior the advice and even when I UPE template editors I tell them exactly why I left the tag, snow please look at analysis of the diffs I did below, I understand how this would come off as rather tough but in order to appreciate this you would have to understand that I am under a calculated siege. Not only is this report wrong it is rather baffling as the OP misunderstood an action I carried out, even when told it was a mistake by myself and another editor they still brought it here when it was clearly established that the action did not concern them. Celestina007 (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Snow Rise, Snow, this is me two days ago literally telling Rich_Smith the importance of explaining why a UPE template should be accompanied by a personal message. Celestina007 (talk) 22:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
  • CommentThis sweeping generalisation is demeaning to the entire WP:NIGERIA community and the good work all the good faith editors there do. I raised similar concerns on this board about a month ago but only a few of the participants noted this unchecked behaviour. Something needs to be done about this kind of behaviour that makes the environment toxic for others and basically undoes the efforts of the good people that go to different parts of Nigeria to recruit new wikimedians who inadvertently get burnt. Kind regards. Princess of Ara(talk) 22:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Note — The editor above Princess of Ara was topic banned because of me. Once again an attempt from another disgruntled editor to get back at me. I am taking my time to explain everything so you all can understand the siege i am facing now. Celestina007 (talk) 22:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Personally I don't think that comment is objectionable--though I presume it is substantially inaccurate. As you can see above, I have some significant misgivings about Celestina's approach here, but the comment you are presenting as inappropriate is that of an editor expressing an opinion (perhaps an exaggerated one, but good faith nonetheless) about what they perceive the extent of a problem to be in a given content area. Our editors must be free to share their perceptions about the nature and expanse of disruptive behaviours on this project, even where it incidentally reflects a negative impression of a large class of contributors. No behavioural policy or principle of community consensus limits the scope of good faith commentary in this regard, and it would have significant negative knock-on effects if we did adopt such a rule.
Now, you could argue that this comment (particularly the 90% figure) is evidence of Celestina's bias in this area, which in turn reinforces their propensity for jumping in with accusations on limited evidence: that I might buy. But we cannot afford to treat observations about problems in certain content areas as a PA, merely because they happen to incidentally involve a class of person that might take umbrage to said observation. Celestina is entitled to their opinion when it comes to the numbers here. What they are not entitled to do is act upon them without limitation. Snow let's rap 22:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Celestina007 keeps making reference to my being topic banned in discussions like it means I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Same thing she tried at AfD. I clearly linked the ANI discussion with the closing statement so this is not a discovery. Princess of Ara(talk) 07:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Celestina's comment, that 90% of articles from her country on ' “businessmen” “entrepreneurs” “organizations” “musicians” and “actors” " would hold true for many other countries also ( Allowing for some rhetorical exaggeration, ) At least as far as “businessmen” “entrepreneurs” & “organizations”are concerned ( I don't know enough to work on the other two categories), somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the articles of these types from my own country are also paid editing, tho more of them are being disclosed than used too be the case. Anyone who doubts it should come work at AfC for a while. DGG ( talk ) 19:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Analysis of the diffs from OP

  • Their first diff has nothing to do with any matter relating to UPE. Their second diff against has nothing to do with UPE it shows me moving an article back to Draftspace. Their third diff is me asking an editor how they got an image in the article as their “own work” Their 4th diff is me placing an AGF sock tag on an editor who knew our mark up and knew how to add scripts to their commons.js in their first 20 edits. Their 5th edit is me placing a placing a UPE tag and initiating a discussion(not against policy).
  • I would analyze all the diffs but I have shown a pattern of mixing real diffs with deliberately misleading diffs that have nothing to do with UPE (or even me) to inundate the readers. They have stalked my page ever since and this is exactly why i wrote out on my page before now on how to address UPE on my userpage before this. There was literally no reason to bring this to ANI, it had long been established to the OP that by both myself and onel5969 that the UPE tag wasn’t intended for them several hours ago but it was still an opportunity to bring me to ANI.
  • For transparency sake, even though their first diff perhaps was an error, what was quoted there was indeed a comment I made to Yamla in response to them declining a block, but again they are being being deliberately deceptive this if the diff here, they said i had no strong evidence but the comment in itself had two cogent facts, that happened here on Wikipedia. I find it disingenuous of them not to mention that I am equally a Nigerian.
  • I however remain unfazed since as I have in no way violated policy, I’m conscious of this hence every and any UPE or AGF sock tag I leave on the tp of an editor I always try to leave a rationale so as to avoid situations as thus If SuperSwift says they dislike drama boards then one begs the question why they still deemed it fit to bring a problem which was established not to be related to them to ANI.
  • I dislike coming here, but I hope the diff analysis of this goes to show you what I’m talking about when I say they intentionally(or mistakenly) include diffs that have no business with me negating UPE and mix it with accurate diffs in bid to inundate the community and force a mirage.
  • Since I received advice(in June) from Beeblebrox on how to tackle UPE without less confrontation I have done do so by reporting appropriately to either ANI or SPI, whenever I UPE template an editor I always give a personal rationale. I would provide diffs shorty to portray this, using a mobile device give me a minute to do that.
  • This is getting tiring the OP mentioned the diffs are from July 1 but haven analyzed them can you now see subtle deception at least three of those diffs were false, in their own words in diff 2 they claim I UPE tagged an editor but please can you all take a look at diff 2? Can you all see the deliberate deception?
  • Is deliberately being deceptive and outrightly lying about someone else not in itself warrant a boomerang block? Celestina007 (talk) 21:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the analysis of the diffs:
  • Their first diff has nothing to do with any matter relating to UPE. Except that it does; a blocked editor's appeal was denied, and Celestina007 chimed in to make that wide-ranging statement about Nigerian editors and UPE, even though the editor wasn't blocked for UPE. Her comments made it about UPE.
  • Their second diff against <sic> has nothing to do with UPE it shows me moving an article back to Draftspace Celestina007 moved the article to draftspace (not back to draftspace) immediately after tagging it for UPE.
  • Their third diff is me asking an editor how they got an image in the article as their “own work” Actually, the third diff is to a UPE Warning discussion Celestina007 started (followed by a sockpuppetry warning below that). And as SuperSwift mentioned, that editor has not edited since their conversations with Celestina007. That could be intepreted as evidence of guilt or evidence that a new editor was bullied away.
    The rest of the OP's diffs seem to be what they say they are. I do not see a pattern of mixing real diffs with deliberately misleading diffs by SuperSwift. Schazjmd(talk) 22:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Schazjmd,
  • @Schazjmd, In my third bulleted point, I expressly point out their error in diff one, and I provided the correct diff the editor was talking about. Celestina007 (talk) 22:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't see deception, subtle or overt, in the original report. That the 2d diff is to the move rather than the preceding edit in which the UPE tag was applied isn't "deceptive". I do see that this was how Celestina007 told SuperSwift that the UPE tag wasn't intended for them: Whilst I largely remain unimpressed with some articles you have created I don’t think anyone was accusing directly of UPE. I do however concerns about you holding the NPR perm as I do not deem you competent enough to hold that right. Schazjmd (talk) 23:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Schazjmd, like, I literally was not talking to them about UPE, agreed a tough manner to say “no it was intended for you” I accept and take responsibility for that but they went off like I had falling into their trap or something, I believe i can count on one hand how many times I have interacted with this user, then they began replying me as though I had specially offended them. Like we literally told him/her this wasn’t intended for you. That was like an hour two hours before this ANI, I assumed they understood rather than come back to my page and say “what are you implying” “what did you mean”? boom! I’m hit with this ANI. Celestina007 (talk) 23:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Schazjmd, I’m largely offended by this ANI, this is quite personal to me, look at my TP and see how I’m living with a life long health condition and I’m here helping out within my capacity and doing the best way I can, they claim I target Nigerian editors but this is me reaching out. Not once have I ever had a problem with any co Nigerian editor who is in good faith editing here, even when my self and good faith editors butt heads we reconcile immediately I edit via a mobile so I can’t do some things with ease but when you can under “Appreciation and Barnstars” and take a look at the very first Barnstar I received. The attempt to paint me a villain is not true please I beg go through my TP and see how I have extensively helped my co Nigerian editors and other editors regardless of race, sex, or country. I’m at WP:TEAHOUSE helping out also. Celestina007 (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
If @SuperSwift claims they do not appreciate being here just as I hate being the center of any form attraction also this can be handled by a conversion between myself and them(should have handled in this manner from the start) Baring in mind that they opened this ANI because they believe I left a UPE tag for them which was established by both myself and onel5969 that the UPE wasn’t intended for them. Celestina007 (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Celestina007, the OP was clear that they were not opening this conversation because of the UPE tag or an accusation against them, but because of a pattern of behavior. I don't think anyone thinks you're a villain. I know that you contribute a great deal to the project and that you spend countless hours reviewing AFC submissions. It's clear that you take pride in your efforts against UPE. I think what's a bit concerning is that you've taken on UPE as a personal crusade, and that in pursuit of that crusade, your approach might appear to be that of a vigilante.
I used to patrol recent changes. What I learned was that by spending a lot of time reverting obvious vandalism, I was beginning to view all edits as suspicious and all unknown editors as suspects. I wonder if by immersing yourself in UPE/COI, you might be experiencing a similar phenomenon. Maybe spending more time on other aspects of editing and a bit less trying to ferret out UPE rings and take down the "bad guys" might not be better for you? The world is not going to end if an undeclared-paid editor slips in an article that is dubiously notable, and it most likely will get caught eventually. Schazjmd(talk) 00:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Schazjmd, I promise you I am not actively looking out for bad guys, asides UPE, I’m happy at the WP:TEAHOUSE, infact on my Userpage I advise against actively hunting for UPE, but if I stumble upon one I report to the appropriate venue, I come here to enjoy myself, I really do love editing here. Honestly I’m tired mentally, I have explained over and again that I play by the book, but editors keep trying discredit me by bring up my past of incivility which I taken responsibility for. Celestina007 (talk) 00:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Siege mentality

There's numerous references above, by Celestina007, to a 'siege' mentality, to an 'us v them' situation, and some kind of vindictiveness in this report - plus taking things '"quite personal[ly]". My view is this is deeply unhelpful, and potentially speaks to a bigger problem around the attitude that this editor takes to UPE and similar actions. When handling all new editors, regardless of your suspicions, editors may be firm, but ultimately must be fair and kind. I question whether someone who displays such an abrasive, combative approach to handling new editor contributions can achieve this level of kindness, welcoming and fairness as consistently as is required. Daniel (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

(examples:)
  • "with more disgruntled staging a siege against me"
  • "I understand how this would come off as rather tough but in order to appreciate this you would have to understand that I am under a calculated siege"
  • "The editor above Princess of Ara was topic banned because of me. Once again an attempt from another disgruntled editor to get back at me. I am taking my time to explain everything so you all can understand the siege i am facing now."
  • "They have stalked my page ever since"
  • "I’m largely offended by this ANI, this is quite personal to me"
  • " look at my TP and see how I’m living with a life long health condition and I’m here helping out within my capacity and doing the best way I can"
Daniel (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@Daniel, Daniel please look at my contributions at the TEAHOUSE and I believe that answers that. Daniel this is still me look at the latest message. The siege I reference is more of revenge from editors I have reported to the ANI which resulted in them being topic banned or their sensitive user rights removed an example is this. I have diffs, which shows me begging editors join WP:NIGERIA. Celestina007 (talk) 23:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
The third sentence of your response is yet another example of what I am saying. This is not an 'us v them' situation, and seemingly being gleeful or discrediting editors because you've had them "topic banned" or "their sensitive user rights removed" is exactly what I'm talking about. I am not going to engage further on this, I am happy for others to assess what I have written above and either agree or disagree with it. Daniel (talk) 00:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment — It would be disingenuous of me not to mention that SuperSwift(OP) answered a very very imperative question I have been asking in the last two years, I have in the past always asked certain editors, the question of if they ever received coaching because they were too new too be too that proficient with either templates or our markup, the editors never replied, but today Super Swift mentioned in our of their replies that I had “frustrated” some of his students. This answered a question I had been asking for a while now, I don’t go to any social gatherings so that this happens is something I’m hearing for the first time today. I believe it would largely explain editors with less than ten edits creating a somewhat decent article, why they didn’t say this all this while I really do not know. It would have been so much easier. AFAIK UPE or COI isn’t the problem but failure to disclose this is the problem. Celestina007 (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I should also add that with this new awareness of editors teaching people how to edit Wikipedia (in a formal event or non formal/Personal manner) I see no reason why I can’t work with Super Swift moving forward, for record sake I’d state prior June 2021(before new techniques of handling suspected UPE was advised to me by a functionary) I agree that some comments I made were harsh and in retrospect whilst reading some of them I too cannot believe I made such harsh comments. I know I have been quite harsh to what seems like UPE) but as God is my witness, I honestly cannot remember a situation whereby I have crossed WP:CIVILITY or made unfounded accusations anyone(after functionaries told me a better way to deal with UPE, yes sometimes I do forget to insert the personal message to editors I UPE template as to why I believe their article to be UPE or why I believe they are actively engaging in UPE, but for every article I affix the UPE tag on, I largely have evidence, some of which I just send straight to WP:ARBCOM, if they contain material that is sensitive. I honestly do not know what else to say. I’m mentally drained at this point. Celestina007 (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I've interacted with Celestina007 over the past year and while we have been friendly, she reminds me quite a deal of Jytdog in that she does a lot (quite a lot!) of good work and receives a great deal of support from fellow editors, but she is often in danger of crossing the line regarding privacy & civility, especially towards new editors.
I respect much of the work that she does but have told her that a) she can not tell editors that she can get them blocked (if you believe this, have a RFA) and b) she can't demand that other editors answer her probing questions as if she is in a position of authority and could prevent them from editing if they don't comply. I've seen her acting tougher on new editors than most admins would be and complain elsewhere that most admins aren't, in her opinion, doing anything about paid editing. Like the siege comments, this seems like shades of a savior complex to me.
I don't come here to ask for sanctions because she does contribute so much but my comments on her talk page haven't had any effect and I hope this discussion will lead to her moderating her approach and tone and to not see herself as the paid editing police. As others have said here, even if some of her accusations are true, it's something Wikipedia can and does deal with every day. It won't lead to the demise of the project. Liz Read! Talk! 01:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your comments Liz, moving forward I propose not to (a) see myself as boarder patrol for paid editing as I have largely described on my UP even before this ANI, (b) to provide a rationale for UPE templating an editor, (c) adjust my tone even further to be more accommodating. Celestina007 (talk) 02:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
UPE tagging of articles and templating editors without evidence is an integral part of the problems we are discussing here. When you tag an article written by a good faith editor as UPE, you are directly accusing the editor of UPE and that’s unacceptable. I respect your contributions as an editor but when it comes to false UPE accusation, it is unhealthy and has sent lot of good faith Nigerian editors away from the project. Also, you haven't shown in this comment that you understand the problem. So, I think a formal restrictions such as the one I proposed below will be in order, atleast for now. Kaizenify (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I have to agree with the idea that Celestina should step back from the language used in some of their UPE accusations. They have done some excellent work in that area, but the attitude is very much that of a gunslinger sometimes. There was a recent case at COIN where I ran into this. After defending what looked to be a good-faith editor (one who Celestina accused very strongly but presented almost no evidence beyond the idea that it was a gut feeling), Celestina commented to another editor that " I literally laughed when I saw an editor defending this account." Well, I was the editor defending the account. I've chased down what must be hundreds of UPE and COI editors by now; I have a pretty good radar on who is and isn't UPE and COI. The thing is, I am on the same side as Celestina, I'm not some COI or UPE editor trying to game the system. The further statements by Celestina are at a level of mistrust and aggressiveness that is just not necessary: "That I’d tell those supporting this COI promotional gibberish “I told you so” is an eventuality. I have unwatched the AFD, Wikipedia indeed does get the editors they deserve. My accuracy when nabbing UPE is near perfect, that a non anti spam editor is arguing with me in my field of expertise is just funny." Some kind of commitment on the part of Celestina is needed that the attitude is going to change. I feel quite badly for the portion of innocent editors who are on the receiving end of that attitude. If there is no willingness to change, I'd support the UPE topic ban. --- Possibly 07:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Let me also add Celestina's afd comments to me for the same COIN issue, which are basically just a personal attack: "@Possibly, I’m not looking to sway you, I have brought this to AFD, if you can’t comprehend sources and tell a reliable source from a reliable piece or tell when a piece is a sponsored or an extended announcements not fulfilling SIGCOV, that’s really no concern of mine, it’s many people who can’t tell the difference so I’m unfazed by your rationale." The thing is, I have a ton of experience in this area. There's no need to insult people who disagree with you. And the AfD closed Keep. There was no proven juice behind any of these Notability/UPE/COI accusations and the ensuing personal attacks. There was a point where it was time to AGF, which was soundly rejected. That has to change. --- Possibly 07:23, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal

Considering that this is a pattern of behaviour that needs to be nipped in the bud to protect our editors and the project, I am proposing a ban from WP:UPE for Celestina007 as a mildest solution that has a good chance at resolving the problems highlighted above. User:Celestina007 is also warned that further hostility towards new editors may result in a block.

  • Support as proposer. Kaizenify (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose – I agree with much of the commentary above (particularly by Liz and Daniel), and I hope Celestina takes it to heart. But such a broad topic ban seems distinctly premature, especially when she's committed to do better in the future. At this point, AGF mandates that we take her at her word. For what it's worth, I'm fairly confident that Celestina doesn't mean to appear hostile: more likely, she just sometimes gets carried away in her zeal to keep spam out of the encyclopedia. That's certainly a problem, but it shouldn't require the blunt instrument of formal sanctions right now, particularly when she's already agreed to address the issue. Again, I hope and trust that she'll think more carefully in the future about her words are perceived, but at this point a topic ban appears unnecessary and disproportionate. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:31, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose, agree with EW above. I expressed my concerns, above, because I had concerns (something I had witnessed over a number of months, not just today, although I didn't have bank of diffs to demonstrate it so I focused on what I read today). I don't think the best remedy in this situation is a blanket ban for Celestina from this area of editing. What I do think is required is a) an undertaking from Celestina to improve moving forward (which has been given); b) demonstrated improvement of this occurring; and c) increased scrutiny from uninvolved editors & administrators as to ensuring b) occurs in the coming weeks and months, with a good-faith discussion one-on-one with Celestina occurring should someone believe the standards aren't being met. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 06:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose and suggest closure with no action at this time. In Celestina's defense, she has made many valuable contributions to the project and even the words/actions being criticized in this thread are obviously intended to improve Wikipedia. I've seen how Celestina has learned and grown as an editor since she began editing. I've seen her take on board past criticism and change how she approaches different tasks, and so I believe that she will consider the concerns expressed in this thread and moderate her approach to other editors in response. Schazjmd (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
This isn't the first time this user is promising to change their behaviour . As early as June 2021, the user made the same promise in this ANI thread, here, here. Here we are again with another promise. SuperSwift (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Noting that the four diffs are all promises to do better, and all about a month old. --- Possibly 07:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Extend some WP:ROPE. This is a close call and the irony is not lost on me that I said I could imagine myself supporting just such a measure above. There's a lot to be concerned about in diffs presented here, including in recent interactions and to some extent into the present discussion. But Celestina seems to be genuine in their assertions that they are working on assimilating to community standards. I'm also concerned that the ban here would be an atypical one, as I think about it. A usual narrowly tailored topic ban can be easily followed without chance of putting an editor in a position where they have to choose between reporting bad faith behaviour and risking sanction or just letting obvious examples go to preserve their own editing priveleges. While I'm not saying that this is something we absolutely should not consider if the behaviour persists and Celestina shows they cannot keep perspective in these areas, I'm also thinking a higher threshold is needed before we hobble and contributor in this fashion. By the same token though, I personally think Celestina has gone right up to the edge on this, even considering their well-advised decision to listen to community feedback and continue working on reforming their approach. Afterall, there was a bit of WP:IDHT up until that point, and only the fact that I believe them when they say they are frustrated but still willing to listen that tips the balance for me. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to flip my !vote to supporting the TBAN if Celestina ends up back here for behaviour even remotely resembling the pattern discussed here in this thread. But this community is in the habit of extending some rope in these situations and I'm willing to lean into that here. Hopefully I won't regret the !vote later. Snow let's rap 07:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose The "siege" commeent is unfortunate, but this user has genuinely caught more legitimate UPEs than not. Furtherore, per EW and Daniel, this user does appear to have taken to heart the comments about unnecessarily un-AGFAGF comments, and quite honestly considering their previous behaviour I have no doubt that they will rectify the problems listed. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re BrxBrx}}) 07:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I think if we're going to avoid a sanction here and hope for the right attitude from Celestina moving forward, we need to frame this as a question outside of their batting average for catching UPE's. First off, we need to be stressing that a certain tone is required regardless of how certain they are that their concerns are legitimate. Second off, I genuinely think that Celestina needs to reassess the baseline level of evidence they have before they leap into action on some of these cases. There are examples in this thread where their presumptions far outstripe the evidence they are working from. If Celestina doesn't learn to temper their approach in both regards, I have little doubt they will end up the subject of another thread here eventually. Snow let's rap 07:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Clearly keen as mustard, does some good work, and seems to have the right ideas if somewhat overzealous methods. A number of people have provided sage advice, both in this thread and previously, and I would strongly suggest that (regardless of outcome) Celestina takes a step back for a while and carefully considers all the feedback they have been provided and what they will be doing differently in the future (not just in terms of behaviour and interactions with others, but where they see themselves fitting into the somewhat strange world that is Wikipedia). My sense of optimism and what I have seen thus far gives me some hope that, if given this opportunity to do so, they will seize it and move forward as an ongoing positive contributor. However I would also suggest that if this does not pose a wake up call, nothing will; if we have to come back here again, I doubt many people would consider that we haven't reached the end of this particular length of rope. --Jack Frost (talk) 08:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • SupportCelestina007 promised to change and stop casting aspersions and accusing editors of UPE without evidence on 23 June and 24 June 2021, in the ANI report initiated by Princess of Ara, as can be seen here, here and here, in her words, yes I accept that I have been ferocious and I have taken responsibility for that.... But yes, like I said I take responsibility for my less than civil approach, moving forward it wouldn’t be confrontational.... Some comments have been raised, yes I do take responsibility for some of my harsh methods of dealing with UPE.... I have seen the “cracks in the wall” and I’m going to correct them, moving forward i shall continue to tackle UPE but in a less confrontational manner, they continued However, I do agree that more often than not I tend to tackle what I believe to UPE ferociously, and moving forward I’m going to be a less confrontational but still as effective and further added I have learnt that moving forward I should do things like you have suggested. This has been a learning curve for me & I do appreciate your input. Rather then changing, this user even increased in their battleground behavior, accusing more good faith editors of UPE without evidence. As can be seen here on 9 July 2021 and in this AfD. Their comments in another AfD from 4 to 8 July 2021 and this COI thread as pointed out by Possibly shows they've refused to learn. Accusing a whole country (Nigeria) editors as UPE without evidence as can be seen here on 21 July 2021 is the worst personal attack I've ever seen here on Wikipedia. I'll also add that if this continues, I'll not hesitate to support an indef block. Best, —Nnadigoodluck 08:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
    To misquote Shakespeare; The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks. --Jack Frost (talk) 09:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose - for the simple reason that Celestina is a net positive and giving them such a topic ban would cause more harm to the project than good. I have no doubt that they will reflect on what has been said here and adapt. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 08:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) Oppose. Celestina is an extremely competent and valuable editor, but they have a hot temper and sometimes go overboard. But I am pretty sure that this can be worked on and that they can improve. My account is less than 1 year old and I barely have 5k edits, so nobody has to listen to what I say, but I would advise 1) always starting at a level 1 when it comes to UPE/sockpuppetry user warnings, regardless of the previous user warnings that the editor has received, 2) not adding personal comments to the templates and 3) exercising extreme care when discussing with the users accused of UPE/sockpuppetry. I would just like to note that the OP is also exaggerating quite a bit. As an editor who cleaned up the article written by the "Legal Intern" (which saved it from deletion), I am not personally convinced that this was the work of a volunteer editor, so I'm not sure on what basis the OP calls Celestina's user warning "false". Regarding another article that she "falsely" tagged as UPE, it's worth noting 1) that Celestina also proceeded to clean it up very thoroughly from its promotional content [507] and 2) that anybody who would have taken a look at the article in its original state, before Celestina's work, would also have suspected that it was the work of a UPE editor. JBchrch talk 09:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose – yeah, I'm not seeing this. While I concur that Celestina should raise their bar for what constitutes indisputable evidence, we're yet far away from a point where I would call their behaviour "chronic and intractable". And certainly, there are worse things to be overly passionate about than UPE. AngryHarpytalk 10:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support – With all this kind of counsel [508] [509] [510] [511] [512] [513] and more from experienced editors over time, I think a long enough rope has been given. So many overzealous fans and newbies have gotten burnt needlessly. Kind regards, Princess of Ara(talk) 16:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose While I have spoken to Celestina about toning down her approach, I did not suggest (as seems to be implied way up above) that she should stop working to detect and prevent UPE, and do not see a need for tban. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose - deciding UPE issues is one of the trickiest issues done by reviewers. There are certain tells which are dead give-aways that a person either has a UPE or COI issue. Their contributions are incredibly valuable, particularly in the area of articles regarding Africa. They have said they will tone down their rhetoric, and we should AGF. Onel5969 TT me 20:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Non-admin Comment: I'd go further, and say that UPE isn't just tricky, it's downright impossible. The two key rules of WP are "Don't say anything unless you've got good evidence" and "Assume good faith", and with UPE, neither is realistic. You can never prove UPE because no one here has access to another editor's personal finances. And it's impossible to defend yourself against a claim of UPE. It ultimately risks descending to the conversation: "You're being paid!", "No I'm not", "I don't believe you", and that's flat contrary to assuming good faith. I wonder whether UPE is really a problem that anyone should be working on. Focus on the edit, not the editor: if the text is referenced, balanced, and reasonably well-written, what more do we want? The point about WP is that it is so strongly peer-reviewed that there is no advantage to paying. Frankly if a person is daft enough to pay an agency/writer to fill "their" article with self-aggrandisement the most likely outcome is someone else will nominate it for deletion, so they might as well just stick their cash in the shredder (and that's the message we should be making loud and clear). But where I think we very much need people like Celestina is in assessing articles about African situations and people; Celestina seems to me to have local knowledge and expertise at knowing when the sources are good or unreliable, which I for one don't. Elemimele (talk) 22:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Let's make no mistake, we are under siege from paid editing, whether disclosed or not; if we don't do something soon, that siege will become a tsunami. Editors who are prepared to stand there with a finger in the dyke are few and far between, Celestina is one of them and deserves our thanks for that. However, intemperate or hostile comments or remarks are not acceptable here, and can weaken the effect of otherwise worthy actions. Celestina007, could you see your way to a rather more laid-back – or perhaps even courteous? – attitude to other editors, while keeping up the good work you do? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers, I am thankful each time for an opportunity such as this as they are a learning curve for me. The answer is a solid “yes” infact, from the last ANI that resulted in a boomerang on the OP what I got out from it is that rather than be confrontational I should just use the WP:COIN board to report issues or go off wiki and report directly to Arbcom. I have tried and have done so, even when I UPE template an article and not the creator per se or even when I leave UPE template on the page of an editor I actively try and initiate a dialogue with the user as to why I have done so. I am always grateful for an opportunity to learn, what I have taken out of this is, to be conservative about my POV as noted above (making an assertion that 90% of Nigerian editors, (I’m Nigerian also) engage in UPE was out of line, I could have said “a good percentage” and that would be statistically correct, one only needs to go to up work and anyone can see for themselves, in fact when I made that comment I referenced two cases where experienced Nigerian editors who had gained the communities trust have been nabbed in less than ethical practices on Wikipedia. Let me also add that i apologize to SuperSwift for the error I made, although I did erroneously make that edit, corrected myself, and told SuperSwift that the UPE tag wasn’t intended for them, I told them in a snarky manner unbecoming of a senior editor. So it’s like I said, I would definitely continue my good work, still be as effective and definitely would tone down on my tone. Celestina007 (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I also want to apologize to the community at large, and Princess of Ara, in particular, because I indeed put them under scrutiny from there first edits. Celestina007 (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Oppose per Justlettersandnumbers above. Celestina007 may sometimes be overzealous, but UPE is WP's elephant in the room and I trust them to take on board the issues raised here. Definitely a net positive. Miniapolis 23:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Moving forward and from advice from both ARBCOM and a sysop here actively engaging in anti UPE I know exactly what to do when tackling UPE in the most appropriate and civil manner, I do not envisage ever being reported here ever again as I know just exactly what to do in tackling UPE, it would less confrontations and more civil action by using the appropriate channels, which I have largely tried to follow since the advice from ARBCOM in June. Celestina007 (talk) 23:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose I've been working with Celestina for some time, and I think they now understand the best way to stop UPE is not to waste time and energy into blaming them, but just to remove their articles in an objective manner. Expressing negative feelings here to people who are knowingly ignoring our rules evokes is almost never necessary, and runs the risk of inappropriately expressing negative feelings towards people who may not realize that they are breaking the rules, or who may be good faith editors who are unwitting copying the promotionalism that is so rampant here or even deliberately copying it because it is so pervasive they think it's what they want. Like most active people working with UPE, I have made occasional incorrect accusations and identifications--and so have the most experienced admins and arbs working in this area. I apologize for them--but I always remember and regret them. But as Celestina said above, we are under siege in this area, and we need to keep working--but doing it as dispassionately as we can, though it is difficult to feel dispassionate towards people who are trying in bad faith for money to destroy the value of Wikipedia.
I understand the concern of the OP here ; I gather from their usertalk they are an organizer of a Wikipedia club at a university. From my own long experience with such activities, it takes experience to prevent such activities from being manipulated by those who would do promotional editing, and even greater skill to prevent naïve new users from submitting work which is so unsatisfactory that it will be taken as deliberate promotionalism . Most new groups go through a considerable period where they gradually learn to avoid the submission of grossly improper contributions due to inadequately supervised training. Most new groups improve as the trainers get experience. Because of the disruption of conventional in-person training session by the pandemic, the last two years have been especially difficult--it is very much more difficult to supervise training when its done remotely, and the performance of even my own chapter is nowhere near as good as it used to be. (This has been of course a problem for teachers generally, not just WP.) The solution is not to reduce standards, but also not to express anger at people who are learning under difficult circumstances. It's hard for anyone to get this right-it's difficult for me as well as for Celestina--I know I am not as patient with poor contributions as I was 2 years ago. I recognize the frustration of someone leading training when their trainee's work is declined, but they should realize this is the opportunity to learn how to improve their own role.
But Celestina is learning, just as the rest of us are learning. My main activity these days is reviewing declined AfCs looking for those I can rescue. Celestina's declines are as accurate as anyone's, There will sometimes be disagreement between reviewers, but there are very few instances where I or another reviewer will accept something she's declined. Working in this area can be demoralizing, and it requires effort to focus on the minority of articles that can be accepted, not the many that can't be. She's done very well at keeping up her morale, and is doing the work more calmly than at first. What she really needs, just as all of us workers at AfC need, is for more people to join in this. It would be utterly unproductive to try to remove one of the hardest working and most accurate people in this area. DGG ( talk ) 01:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support I don't believe that allowing the user to continue engaging in frivolous UPE accusations, newbie biting, and general obnoxiousness is a good idea. With all the diffs that have been presented (and apparently ignored), if we're planning to allow Celestina to walk out of this discussion without any editing restrictions, it should be done strictly on a last-chance basis. This doesn't leave me with a whole lot of hope for their future though: they just don't seem to get what's being said to them. 78.28.44.31 (talk) 11:25, 24 July 2021 (UTC) This comment has shattered what little hope I still had. 78.28.44.31 (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Opppose Celestina is a great editor and a fundamentally decent women. But we must deal in realpolitik here. Poeple get angry for natural reasons, but mostly for UPE editing now. scope_creepTalk 09:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose (Non-administrator comment) - I think the good Celestina does to maintain the integrity of the encyclopedia far outweighs the mistakes she has made in the past. She is a productive, good faith editor who has proven that she has keen perceptive abilities to identify UPE and COI editing. She has stated that she will temper the tone of her interactions and is actively listening to the advice given to her here. I believe that she is trustworthy and will keep her word. It would be a net-loss to the project to ban her from an area of her strength. Netherzone (talk) 21:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose As I believe I stated above, I didn't comment here to support sanctions but just urge a change in tone & approach and the a promise not to make threats which can serve to intimidate editors, especially newbies. I agree with DGG that many editors who write promotional content aren't paid editors but just think that this style of writing is what is acceptable online. They require education, not accusations.
What I don't want is for Celestina to become the next Jytdog who also did tremendous work here regarding COI until he crossed the line. I'm glad that some of the comments above mine are pointing out that there IS a line. And, also, I'm not sure how "a ban from WP:UPE" would even be carried out. It seems like Celestina is taking comments to heart which, ideally, is the best outcome a stressful experience like coming to ANI can deliver. Liz Read! Talk! 04:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commons - a petty deletion for a photo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Link: commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Bradford_Montage_2021.jpg

I mean I don't know how this works but a user on Wikicommons seems to dislike a new montage for Bradford because in their own words "Because its nonsense". The user doesn't appear to be on Wikipedia but I mean I don't see how it hurts to update a lead photo every so often...I made collages for Blackburn, Dewsbury, Halifax and there have been no complaints...but for this one there is...I have commented on it and think because its nonsense as a reason to delete is quite petty and silly...would anyone on here who uses commons comment...it has been changed much still got the city hall, cathedral and skyline present just added the mosque and a well known hall...I can happily readd the other montage but I think my one is not so bad and the authors have been credited...RailwayJG (talk) 16:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC) RailwayJG (talk) 16:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing we can do about it, but I've added my 2 cents to the discussion. It won't be deleted, it's not a valid deletion rationale there and it's clearly not a good faith nomination. Canterbury Tail talk 16:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks @Canterbury Tail: I found it to be silly and I thought at the end of the day its just a montage...it is not an offensive photo and the user there looks to have only joined...

RailwayJG (talk) 16:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I kept the file, clearly a nonsense nomination by a user who has registered today.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continuing block evasion from Ninenine99

Ninenine99 was blocked indefinitely earlier this year and has become increasingly persistent with block evasion - 2603:8000:B01:8AD4:DD28:CA5C:B909:FE36 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the most recent, active today.

There has been a succession of /64 ranges blocked but it appears that Ninenine99 has learned how to get around them.

Past IP ranges have included:

Is a wider rangeblock possible? --Sable232 (talk) 22:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Yes — 2603:8000:b01:8ad4:dd28:ca5c:b909:fe36/46 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) incluses all of these ranges, and almost no one else. All IP's geolocate to the Gateway Cities area. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 13:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Can an administrator block this IP range? --Sable232 (talk) 20:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Sockpuppet of user:allknowingroger spotted

The user who was the subject of this is back under the name User:Adorvisa. Given that they're focusing on the same thing and reverting my edits, it's pretty obviously the same person. Can I revert their edits? (And can we do a community ban of them?) Best, -- Rockstone[Send me a message!] 18:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Rockstone35, subject to what? The allknowingroger account is not blocked (nor have they ever been blocked). Their last edit was over a month ago. It's possible they lost their details and registered the Adorvisa username as a new account. If so, they should disclose that, but maybe they simply don't know they have to. El_C 21:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
El_C, are both of them socks of blocked User:RogerNiceEyes? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:43, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
El_C -- like Cullen328 said, they are sockpuppets of RogerNiceEyes. People just didn't bother blocking allknowingroger because they disappeared. This is part of their Modus Operandi. -- Rockstone[Send me a message!] 22:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I've blocked and tagged both accounts.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:28, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

"White-supremacist" term: a request for clarification

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Symbol redirect vote2.svg Courtesy link: Talk:Germanic peoples#Let my people go

Now that some of the problems with the Germanic peoples article are being worked on, I feel it necessary to raise a separate issue. Recently on the Germanic peoples talk page Berig used the term "white supremacist" in the Let my people go thread (which I started). Here's some of the context, beginning with a statement by Carlstak:

Yes, and putting the words of Moses at the top of the apologist diatribe is beyond the pale. The very first sentence saying "This comment is made pointedly toward improving the general tone and direction of the article" is beyond satirization. My father's mother was German, I fit the stereotypical blonde-haired, blue-eyed Nordic type in appearance, as do some of my Jewish friends, and I am outraged by the comment. Carlstak (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

And my wife is Jewish, as are technically my children. I just don't understand why this discussion has to be so polarized. Correct me if I am wrong, because I might not be smart enough to grasp this, but it is like either the article will cater to the delusions of white supremacists, or it has to be a deconstructionist essay. Can it be possible to write an article where we are just honest with how little we know and present opinions as opinions, and theory as theory?--Berig (talk) 20:03, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I responded and further objected to other derogatory remarks in the thread:

Whether the concept of the Germanic people is being treated by scholars under a general cloud of prejudice is, of course, up for debate. The fact that I believe it strongly likely does not make me a "white supremacist", a term I consider to be offensive and racist. It is interesting that my title and comments aroused such vehement reactions and quickly provoked the bigoted stereotypes which in fact are frequently and offensively applied to Germans. Trump is German-American, so I can be compared to a Trumpista?. Auschwitz must be interjected for no known reason. Berig wonders why this discussion "has to be so polarized" and so do I. But I am not the one calling names. Dynasteria (talk) 08:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Now, I don't believe Berig was overtly calling me a white supremacist. However, I was the only person to whom it could logically apply. Piling that on top of other borderline slurs was objectionable. I decided to forget about it until Srnec on this page remarked that I found the term racist. Then EEng repeated his accusation that I am somehow pro-Nazi:

This ANI thread has certainly brought out the worst in Andrew, but a different user recently posted to the article talk page a Germans-as-victims screed under the heading "Let my people go" and complained that "white supremacist" was an offensive label. Srnec (talk) 01:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Srnec:: I am that "different user". You are welcome to your own opinion but I do not have to accept your slurs as examples of the "worst" in someone. My thread was not some superfluous "Germans-as-victims screed" and it is un-Wikipedian behavior to be dismissive toward me. Primarily, though, the fact that I consider "white supremacist" to be a racist term, because it is, is outside your province of review. If you are defending the use, then you are guilty of a racist (or is it political) attack on me. You know nothing about me, do you? Dynasteria (talk) 08:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Other than that you advocate for voluntary amnesia about the catastrophe that was 20th-century German history, no, nothing. EEng 14:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

So not only do I object to the racist/political slurs against me, I object to the characterizations of my posts as a "screed" or a "diatribe". Then, additionally on this page, Landroving Linguist characterized my contributions (among others') as "rhetoric". This last is mainly problematic in that it is one of those buffering words that conceal the attack and insult. I put a lot of effort into my posts and don't appreciate having them denigrated.

My question here is whether this is acceptable behavior and language on the part of Wikipedians. Should I just roll with the punches like any grownup? Hey, we've all had derogatory terms used against us from time to time and none of us felt the least bit slighted. Right? Or is this, as I suspect, a sign of latent bigotry and a double standard? I shouldn't have to say this, no one here really knows anything about me.

@Berig, Srnec, Obenritter, Alcaios, Ealdgyth, Srnec, Avilich, Dynasteria, Yngvadottir, Austronesier, SMcCandlish, North8000, Krakkos, Bloodofox, Carlstak, Ermenrich, Landroving Linguist, Andrew Lancaster, EEng, Ealdgyth, and Doug Weller: And anyone else who feels like contributing. Dynasteria (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

As to your claim about me, I did not relate the word "rhetoric" to your contribution on white supremacists on that talk page, but to your and other's complaints against another user in a different ANI thread. So I don't see myself involved in this. LandLing 22:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dynasteria, I'm sure I must be misunderstanding, but just to be very, very clear: you seem to be arguing that the term "White supremacist" -- the term itself, like the n-word -- is racist and offensive and doesn't belong in discussions here on WP? —valereee (talk) 20:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Valereee: Basically, yes. Throwing the term at someone because he is white (suspected) and because he is arguing in favor of some aspect of Germanic peoples is by definition racist. Naziism lasted about 15 years and ended 75 years ago. Conflating Germans with Nazis and other white supremacists is in itself racist.Dynasteria (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I suppose if someone actually is a white supremacist then the term would apply without objection. Dynasteria (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dynasteria, so you're saying the term itself is not racist and offensive? —valereee (talk) 20:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Valereee: Right. The context makes the difference. In the American high schools where I've spent a lot of time, you can hear the N-word about a thousand times a day and nobody is offended. Conversely if something is used as an insult then it is one. Here, if it was used in the innocent belief that I was in fact a white supremacist Nazi, then I feel I'm owed an explanation. Thank you for being reasonable. Dynasteria (talk) 21:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
FWIW, if you're hearing the n-word 1000 times a day and not objecting, I'd start objecting. If you ever get famous someday, someone is going to bring that shit up. —valereee (talk) 21:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Without comment on anything else, a link to the actual discussion would be helpful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The Blade of the Northern Lights, see the courtesy link. TSventon (talk) 21:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Valereee: It's from the kids. Part of their culture at large (applicable to all races and generations) and they'd be really offended if you tried to change them. Dynasteria (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Off-topic, taking to user talk. —valereee (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dynasteria: I think Berig meant that it is better to write an article where we are just honest than to cater to the delusions of white supremacists or to write a deconstructionist essay and they hoped and expected all participants in the discussion to agree with them. Hopefully they will speak for themself in due course. TSventon (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I am really sorry that you feel offended @Dynasteria:. I honestly did not think about you when I wrote it, and what TSventon wrote above is exactly what I meant.--Berig (talk) 13:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@Berig: Thanks for your apology. I didn't really think you were the type to resort to name calling. What is important, to me, is to address a general atmosphere of guilt by association between present day Germans, historical Nazis, and a kind of free-floating, all-purpose racism (just any old racism that happens to arise). Perhaps that atmosphere is exemplified by the automaticity with which one or two others piled on after my response to you. I feel that most people are unaware of any such bigotry and certainly don't accept that it exists. Regarding the issue of deconstructing the concept of a Germanic peoples in the article, some users point to various scholars who write and publish in German (i.e. Austrians and Germans) who refute the idea that a pan-Teutonic culture or ethnic group ever existed. Certainly those scholars can't be prejudiced. (?) To that I would say that the worst form of bigotry is practiced by the members of the very group toward which it is directed. If you feel tainted by being part of a group, then surely you want to disassociate yourself from it. This is what I find wrong with the Germanic peoples article.

All that is a long-winded explanation of what I object to about using the term "white supremacist" except where it actually belongs. Dynasteria (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  • This is starting to feel like WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS at this point. If you’re going to make such broad speculations about a group of scholars you at the very least need a source which says the same... You can’t just call them practitioners of bigotry and expect that argument to fly unsupported. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
    @Horse Eye's Back: Thanks for your response. It's a perspective I hadn't considered. In fact I'm not speculating about a group of scholars as actually being "practitioners of bigotry". Rather, I'm pointing out that their ethnicity is no guarantee of their objectivity or lack of bigotry, bias, etc. I should provide a link to that area of the talk page on Germanic peoples where the relevant discussion occurred, and I'm working on figuring out how to do that. Dynasteria (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Take careful note, Dynasteria:
    • With respect to: EEng repeated his accusation that I am somehow pro-Nazi
      (a) I said nothing like that;
      (b) How fucking dare you say make such an accusation without notifying me as required in the huge box at the top of this page, and in the editnotice that pops up each time you edit it? The reason for that requirement is that inexperienced editors such as yourself, as they flail about, often don't know basic stuff like how to trigger a ping properly, and then people get super pissed off that you're talking about them behind their backs, even if inadvertently;
      (c) I strongly suggest that within the next 12 hours you either add diffs to all your junk above (showing the context of material you're quoting) and notifying, on their talk pages, everyone you're bitching about; or (way better for your) close this misbegotten thread. If you do neither of these things I'll take the initiative to close it for you.
    • With respect to: Naziism lasted about 15 years and ended 75 years ago – Seriously, just how ignorant are you?
You're way out of line and making yourself look like a complete ass. EEng 01:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Also, long-winded takes a hyphen. I've got half a mind to sic the hyphen police on you. Then you'll really rue the day.
@EEng: Thanks for the heads-up. I'll take care of the notifications soon. Unfortunately I don't know how to add diffs. Perhaps an administrator could step in and provide instruction. I'm not aware of flailing about, as you put it. Dynasteria (talk) 10:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
WP:DIFF is a good start. Or try Wikipedia:Simple diff and link guide. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
You have 6 hours left to supply the diffs before I hat this. Still waiting for you to address your frightful ignorance of history and lying about me. Probably best if you defer editing in grownup topic area until you've obtained an education. EEng 11:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Dynasteria: Please refrain from filing ANI reports if you don't know how to provide evidence of the claims you are going to make about other editors' behaviour. If the problem is that you do not have access to such evidence because it does not exist, then please apologize and retract the offending remarks.
EEng: If you look at the talk page section linked at the top of this thread, it seems the OP is quite confused about the difference between "Germanic peoples" and "German people" ("German diaspora"?) despite the former term being pretty well defined in the opening sentences of the article in question. Compared to this, a confusion of "Naziism" with "the Third Reich" seems pretty... well, it's not "tame", but it's more believable that an editor acting in good faith could be ignorant of that history as long as they are not actually editing articles specifically about Naziism or the Third Reich. (Read: I would expect a member of "the general populace" to be more familiar with Naziism than with the ancient Germanic tribes, but the same would not apply to someone engaged in lengthy back-and-forth on the talk page of our article on the Germanic tribes.)
Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:15, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
You have a more kind and forgiving heart, Hijiji, than do I, but dissecting the precise metes and bounds of Dynasteria's ignorance seems to me an unprofitable investment of time. EEng 11:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Hijiri: Lack of knowledge about procedure is not a bar to filing complaints. (Go to federal court and scrawl your complaint in crayon and they'll accept it.) I shouldn't have to hire the equivalent of a lawyer to be here. Please be advised that the Germanic peoples article has been altered radically since I started participating on the talk page. I'm not aware of confusing Naziism with the Third Reich. I associated a sly "Arbeit Macht Frei" jab with being called a Nazi. What would you like to say about EEng's leveling threats at me on this page? Is that OK? Dynasteria (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah well, see, Gideon, this isn't federal court and we don't have to waste our time with people scrawling in crayon, so if it's your plan to continue the cluelessness act you'd better find another one. You don't have to to hire the equivalent of a lawyer to be here (though maybe this guy [514] can help you) but you do have to be able to read directions; you've already been pointed to the box at the top of this page, and someone has helpfully linked the tutorial on diffing. I renew my exhortation that you close this thread voluntarily and go edit in less fraught topic areas while you educate yourself (on things including, but not limited to, how Wikipedia works) before you talk yourself into a WP:CIR block. EEng 13:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Also, Hijiri How am I "quite confused" about the difference between Germanic peoples and German people? The beauty of being quite confused, as with being ignorant, is that often one has no idea about one's state of mind. I would genuinely like to clear up some issues but I need you to address me directly. Also, I don't like working under a general threat so please address EEng directly about that. Dynasteria (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dynasteria: this isn't federal court. NZ is not a federation, there's no such thing as a federal court anyway. The vast majority of us are not lawyers. Many people here are also not that technically competent. Still most experienced editors learn how to supply diffs. If you are unable to learn the unfortunately it is correct you probably should not file complaints at ANI. If someone else is aware of the problem, talk to them about it and ask them if they can help you bring a complaint. If no one else is aware, then unfortunately you may just have to leave it be until someone else notices the problem. I'm fairly confused though. People have provided you two guides above. Have you read them and made an effort to learn? Because if you haven't, I'm not sure why your convinced you cannot learn. I suggest you just try. It will be far better for you and for everyone, if you take the time and find out how to and then supply diffs rather than continuing this conversation. Whatever you may feel about what EEng said in this thread, they have a point that you've made a very serious allegation and so far failed to back that up with evidence. Failing to do so will likely be seen as a personal attack leading to a block so you either need to do so or withdraw the allegation and apologise. So if you're unable or unwilling to do so, please just withdraw the allegation and apologise. If you are or might be able to, I suggest you spend your time learning and doing so rather than wasting time on this diversion. If you really want, you can get back to it once you've supplied diffs for you serious allegation. Nil Einne (talk) 12:36, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
BTW, I don't know much about US federal courts assuming that's what you meant but I strongly suspect you're mistaken. Sure you may be able to file a complaint with crayon, but if you fail to provide any evidence, it's going to be thrown out. If it actually comes before a judge and the judge asks you for your evidence and you just say 'I don't know how to provide evidence your honour, hopefully a judge can do it for me', you won't get very far. (Not that admins are judges.) At best they may offer you guidance and suggestions (and frankly the main one will probably be to hire a lawyer) and cut you a lot of slack from the normal rules, but ultimately you are the one who needs to learn from them and be able to provide the evidence. If you can't or don't and your complaint gets thrown out, you'll likely find if you keep doing it you'll get in trouble even if you use pen. We could cut you a little slack here, instead of a diff ask for a link to the discussion and a quote of the statement where EEng repeated the accusation, and for that matter where they first made the accusation; but you're going to need to do something other than arguing about what you're confused about. Nil Einne (talk) 12:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: You're right, I did leave out some of the more objectionable wording. But in fact I have already provided some evidence. This is from the Let my people go thread linked at the top of this thread:

You’re missing the point, Dynasteria, that in my experience numerous German and Austrian scholars (Walter Pohl, Helmut Reimitz, Sebastian Brather…) including the current editors of Germanische Altertumskunde Online, deny the existence of “Germanic peoples”. This has nothing to do with anti German sentiment in the anglophone world, it has to do with dismantling 19th and 20th Century nationalist and essentialist ideas about language and ethnicity. We can’t ignore the consensus of scholars, that goes against Wp policy.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:30, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

What are you thinking, Dynasteria? "Let my people go" is a completely inappropriate heading for your statement in this context of what you say about the racism of the Nazis. Of course you know that "Let My People Go" is a phrase from the Book of Exodus 5:1: "And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." I am astonished and amazed that you transpose the pleas of the Israelite leaders before the Egyptian ruler onto your screed made on behalf of people of German descent concerning modern-day prejudice against them. You should strike it. Carlstak (talk) 13:43, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

At least it wasn't Arbeit macht frei. EEng 15:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I would like to think that the heading was chosen in haste, without thinking through the implications, because it's the sort of oblivious remark that one expects from Trumpista fascists rather than an intelligent WP editor like Dynasteria. Carlstak (talk) 16:06, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Given Dynasteria's plea that It is time to release the Germanic people from the chains and shackles of being enslaved, I'd say that's wishful thinking. But ya know, as Tom Lehrer put it, Once all the Germans were warlike and mean, / But that couldn't happen again. / We taught them a lesson in 1918 / And they've hardly bothered us since then. EEng 17:01, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Nil Einne You can hardly expect me to become fully proficient overnight. EEng's bringing up a famous slogan associated with Auschwitz, along with other remarks, in my view is tantamount to calling me a Nazi. Now, I didn't know until today the gravity of that accusation so I'm willing to withdraw it. However, as I said before, I refuse to work under threat. Tell EEng to lay off and I'll get right on it, fixing my earlier oversights. I've placed in bold some of the comments and issues I find troubling, but even that will prove insufficient explication. I was trying to simplify things but have only made them more complicated. If anyone really wants to get involved it will require some catching up, as it did me at the beginning. And I'll probably have to repeat myself as I've already done, well, repeatedly. Dynasteria (talk) 13:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, see, you're still leaving out the things you said, which is what everyone was responding to. When you imply that Germans are the real victims of 20th-century history, and use the heading "Let my people go" to do it, you deserve whatever you get. Still don't get that, do you? EEng 13:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Skimming that discussion, the original comment in the section reads like a WP:RGW issue, and the user's complaint here is difficult to make sense of. The "white supremacist" comment that the user has zoned into seems like the proverbial mountain out of a molehill, since I don't think it was even directed at the user. And the user's complaints about EEng seem like a case of When you imply that Germans are the real victims of 20th-century history, and use the heading "Let my people go" to do it, you deserve whatever you get. The user seems oblivious of the impression created by their tone/argument. Further, the unfocused comments by the user above make me unsure whether there's a specific problem here that concerns them. Overall, this all just comes across as drama solely for the sake of drama. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@ProcrastinatingReader: I've got a name and it isn't "user". You've stated your opinion well enough but have misstated mine. I've elucidated everything I think, feel, and believe regarding these topics multiple times so if anyone is confused about it that person can take a couple of hours and comb through all the remarks. If they still can't make sense of it, that isn't my deficiency. However, ProcrastinatingReader, it seems well established that the severity of a bigoted remark is judged by the recipient, not by the person making it nor by a third party bystander. The trouble, I find, with challenging entrenched, prejudiced, "mainstream" viewpoints is precisely that that's what they are. There is a huge, shared, vested interest in maintaining the status quo. And no one is going to stand by your side and volunteer to take flak. If you think EEng's and others' language and behavior have been exemplary, then be in peace and go on your way. I suggest the only recourse is to do what EEng wants and shut down this thread. Then the whole thing will just blow away (in your mind). Dynasteria (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
TBH I still can't make sense of your complaint, or your reply. As I say, it's unfocused and this ANI section switches between a vague complaint about article content, concerns about users' interactions with you, off-topic philosophical tangents about the Germanic peoples and use of language, technical difficulties possibly as a result of not reading WP:DIFF, and allegations of some kind of conspiracy/"vested interest" of which the perpetrators are unclear (Wikipedians? Scholars?). There also seems to be some confusion about the purpose of Wikipedia. All in all, the lack of focus makes it very difficult to address your concerns or address which parts you're mistaken on. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Dynasteria, with all due respect, when you titled the thread "Let my people go," you were either being deliberately provocative or astoundingly oblivious. Either way people are entitled to render opinions based on your actions. You are certainly entitled to defend yourself, but I am with ProcrastinatingReader--this all seems like drama for drama's sake at this point. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Deliberately provocative. No one who can write English this well and is familiar with German history and scholarship would not be aware of the effect on others of quoting the Torah in an argument that Germans are unfairly being linked to Nazis. And then to jump into an existing ANI thread, and open a separate ANI thread about it? As a non-EC editor? This is trolling, pure and simple, meaning it's intentionally done for the purpose of provoking others, or as Proc said above, drama for the sake of drama. My !vote is close this per WP:DFTT. Levivich 15:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Dynasteria: no one said anything about you becoming proficient overnight. However when you were asked to provide evidence, instead of making some attempt to do so, you initially just said hopefully someone else would do so, although it seemed clearly no one knew what on earth you were talking about so there was no way for anyone else to do so. When someone provided you guides, again instead of making some effort to learn from them and/or asking for help on the parts which confused you, you seemed to continue to complain about other stuff and added some frankly silly story about some Federal court. You've now finally provided evidence. It may not demonstrate what you claim, however if you'd done so when first challenged frankly I wouldn't have commented since this discussion bores me. I only commented since I found it silly you were doing everything other than providing evidence for your claim and yet complaining about a deadline. I often disagree with EEng and frankly I don't think the way they dealt with this was great (since it would be better to let someone else handle any actions on your accusations), but I can completely understand their frustration when you made allegations and kept refusing to provide any evidence. Nil Einne (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: I opened the thread with evidence. I simply asked for time to figure out what a "diff" is and what to do with it. Don't ever use the word "silly" toward me or about me especially if you don't know what a metaphor is. The evidence is now available so what do you have to say about it? You REALLY need to do your homework before commenting. Dynasteria (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah. I think it is abundantly clear that this needs to simply be shut down. Happy Monday, all. Dumuzid (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Dynasteria, as your attorney, I advise you to stop talking and withdraw this complaint. Jorm (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Propose boomerang

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Given that Dynasteria has been trying to counter Wikipedia’s "hidden agenda" [515] for at least a decade I am formally requesting community input on a WP:NOTHERE site ban. Their contributions to Talk:Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories and Talk:Bible would suggest that this isn’t limited to any one topic area so I’m not sure a topic ban would actually address the issue at hand. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Having skimmed through about 100 of their 300 talkspace contribs, I see what you see. There seems to be a great focus on racial issues and adjacent things... like the genetic history of blue eyes, who is "Nordic," "Caucasian race" shouldn't be in scare quotes, whether Dinesh D'Souza is "far right," arguing that the Bible article should just be about the Christian Bible... I recognize these talking points. Their earliest talk page edits question whether Oliver Stone (whose father was Jewish) is really a veteran (he is), and pushing Obama birthirism. I still think the purpose of this is provocation and not actually wanting to change articles (that is, it's trolling not genuine POV pushing) because the overwhelming majority of their contribs are to discussion pages and they've been hitting a number of hot-button racial issues over a period of years and not done much else (real POV pushers work harder to change mainspace articles, not just antagonizing editors on talk page). So I'd support a site ban. Really I'd encourage others to look at that list of 300 contribs, pick out a few threads at random, and see if they get the same impression I do. Maybe I'm ABFing too much for obvious reasons. Levivich 18:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Once the monks of the Western and Eastern Halls were arguing about a cat. Nansen, holding up the cat, said, “You monks! If you can say a word of Zen, I will spare the cat. Otherwise I will kill it.” No one could answer, so Nansen cut the cat in two. That evening, when Joshu returned, Nansen told him of the incident. Joshu thereupon took off his sandal, put it on his head, and walked off. Nansen said, “If you had been there, the cat would have been saved!” And where were all the Wikipedians? And who is killing the cat? (Puts sandal on his head and walks out) Dynasteria (talk) 18:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    The Wikipedia community was discussing what to do with a problematic editor. The discussion had hardly begun before this very same editor interjected some goofy koan that made no sense but allowed the editor in question to imagine he'd said something really deeeeep, man! Like, far out! The community got out the banhammer and beat him over the head with it (metaphorically speaking, of course). Everyone else went back to improving articles but still the editor was not enlightened. EEng 19:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    Master Joshu himself had some sage advice on the matter: "A monk asked, 'A man who is absolutely devoid of shame--where should one put him?' Joshu said, 'Not here.' The monk said, 'If such a man should show up, what would you do?' Joshu said, 'Kick him out.'" Dumuzid (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    You must have a bowdlerized edition. Mine says 'Kick him out on his ass.' EEng 19:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    The monk trudged up the mountain to consult with the Ancient One. "Oh Master! The offending man has been told his place is 'Not Here'. We beg of you in your wisdom and enlightenment to pass judgment on our actions." The Ancient One, unmoving, caused the wind to whisper and the leaves to rustle like a thousand empty voices. "Not Here ... No There ... there is No There there. All is one." The monk stared at the Ancient One uncomprehendingly and slowly the figure transmogrified into a rotting stump of a camphor tree. He turned and descended the mountain path having achieved enlightenment. (Apologies to Gertrude Stein.) Dynasteria (talk) 22:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    Whatever helps you sleep at night, DysenteriaDynasteria. It's just about your speed to imagine that associating WP:NOTHERE with Gertrude Stein is a novel insight. EEng 23:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    This discussion made me laugh harder and longer than anything I've read on WP in a long, long time. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:39, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • SupportWP:NOTHERE block. This user is clearly trolling us, and has been for quite some time. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    What is the sound of one hand that feeds you clapping? EEng 19:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support - Whatever it is that Dynasteria is doing, whether it's trolling or something else, it's clear that the user is WP:NOTHERE to contribute constructively. - Aoidh (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I too had already been skimming through their previous edits yesterday but didn't have the time yet to report here. I came to the same conclusion as Horse Eye's Back and Levivich above, that they are not here to build an encyclopedia, more specifically that they are here instead to right great wrongs. For example, they are concerned that common representations of the Cheddar Man as having a black skin might be wrong (since the Cheddar Man is thought to have had blue/green eye color and "in modern populations light eye color and light skin color are demonstrably linked") and asks for Wikipedia to "weigh in here" [516]. Just by itself this may appear as mere cluelessness about how WP:NPOV works, but one is bound to read it in a wholly different light when combined with stuff like that they are "offended by the automaticity with which anything to do with Nordic people becomes linked to racism" [517], or that they believe they have to fight the idea "that a single individual who lived 8,000 years ago is the sole ancestor of all blue eyed people, which seems patently ludicrous" [518] (unduly questioning [519] the legitimacy of the scholar (Hans Eiberg) who published this theory and who is still cited in the article for this). The nordic race and blue eyes stuff is some time ago, but more recently their edits at a book about population genetics were identified as POV-pushing [520] (they found scholarly criticisms of the way the author used the word "race" to be overly politically correct and questioned whether these scholars had the necessary background [521]), and as has been advertised above, they believe that because "after two world wars and the attendant racism of the Nazis, it became de rigueur in the anglophone academic universe to distance, disparage, and minimize the concept of a Germanic people", "it becomes irrelevant what a consensus of scholars believes about the Germanic people, either as a concept or a reality. Such a consensus has highly dubious antecedents. It is time to release the Germanic people from the chains and shackles of being enslaved to a century of two world wars in which Germany, a separate nation, lost twice." [522] I think there's a clear pattern here of seeking to right great wrongs by questioning the relevant scholarship, and support a community ban on this basis. Apaugasma (talk ) 19:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    release the Germanic people from the chains and shackles of being enslaved – I ... I just can't get enough of that. It's just so perfect, it belongs in some hall of fame somewhere. Poor Germanic people in their chains and shackles! EEng 20:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC) P.S. I like to point out at every opportunity – and, sadly, the opportunities are few and far between – that Cheddar_Man was lactose intolerant. Really! It's true!
    Wow this is a great analysis. You do the $deity's work here. Jorm (talk) 21:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. Not sure whether Nazi or troll but it doesn't make much difference to the outcome either way. The obvious attempts to minimize or downplay any criticism of racism (examples: this thread, Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here) are too problematic to continue. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. I didn't have an opinion about this until I suddenly did, and it's the same as everyone else's in this lil' sub-thread.--Jorm (talk) 21:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Their editing history contains talk comments not only about the Germanic peoples, but also enslaved African Americans, whether Steve Bannon is far-right, apparent racial injustices against the Nordic peoples, genetic inheritance of eye colour of people with blue eyes, "Lifelong hatred of Germany?", the efficacy of vaccinations, the birthplace of Obama and frequent tirades about "abuses of power by some WP administrator". Nothing awfully egregious at a skim but it's such a dubious editing history that I'm genuinely surprised some admin hadn't indeffed for WP:NONAZIS. Not necessarily saying they should or shouldn't be in my opinion, but I've seen editors indeffed per that essay for far less. In fairness to them, in some cases they were right. But the user obviously doesn't really want to edit and the account behaves like it's an irregular complaints account for whenever the editor gets bored, with a touch of trolling when they're extra bored. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@MjolnirPants: <tongueincheek>The above editor has made a stealth-reference to you on ANI. I figured I should ping you that you might respond as appropriate.</tongueincheek> Seriously, though, is there anyone on the project who would still have a problem with moving that essay to the Wikipedia namespace? Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
On a loosely related note, I did appreciate this diff. It brought me back to a much funnier time in my life when a large number of Americans believed in a hoax whose leader's first name was literally Internet slang for "Oh, really?".[523] (Well, she was the "leader" except during Drumpf's failed 2011 presidential campaign.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support I noticed this a while ago, but didn't want to say it myself because the last time I "called someone a Nazi" (not actually what happened, but still) the immediate consequence was someone in Georgia trying nine times to get Wikipedia to tell them my password. Hijiri 88 (やや) 22:43, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
    You too with the password thing? We have a support group. Jorm (talk) 23:15, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support It's clear from their responses here [524] that they are just trolling now. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support They can barely maintain a dialogue with other editors, I don't know how they're going to help contribute to the encyclopedia. ––FORMALDUDE(talk) 02:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support enough is really enough at this point. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support, since Dynasteria inexplicably tried to pull me into this travesty. And if she is not banned, her melodramatic Wikiexit will most likely be cut short under the pretext that she came back to look for her other sandal. LandLing 08:27, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
    Seems unlikely since she doesn't have a leg to stand on. EEng 08:55, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Jesus fucking Christ. When an editor starts complaining that "white supremacist" is a derogatory term, while in the context of complaining that WP isn't taking the Nazis' theories on race seriously enough, a context which includes blatantly WP:NOTHERE statements like "Pursuant to this, it becomes irrelevant what a consensus of scholars believes....", it's time to get that ole banhammer flying. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:34, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Christ! Ban them! this is not the place for WP:NAZIS—blindlynx (talk) 13:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
BTW this is the same editor that was pushing wp:fringe theories at Talk:Scythians#Iranian_origin last month—blindlynx (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Per this and others. This user is definitely WP:NOTHERE. Best, —Nnadigoodluck 14:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support, per above. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I think we need more editors like this. Dynasteria has really united the Wikipedia community in a common purpose! EEng 15:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:NOTHERE. Paul August 16:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support of course, as one cited here by the boomerangee for my "derogatory" comments. I always try to speak out whenever anti-Semites, Nazi sympathizers, or similar cranks troll a talk page I post to, rather than treating them as just another commenter. Carlstak (talk) 18:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The Cheddar chin discussion already was an incredible display of WP:CIR, but all this völkisch babble including the talk about academia having a sinister agenda which should prevent us from citing scholarly sources is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE. –Austronesier (talk) 19:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. While I like to assume good faith, the sheer weight of comments by this user seems to warrant this block. Particularly creepy things like "When the time comes, let each of us choose the right side", which is very "we are the storm!"-ish...--Ermenrich (talk) 20:10, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
@Ermenrich: Correction. The exact quote is "When the call to action comes, may each of us find his or her own right path." In other words, sitting in the background or on your butt in the sidelines ain't gonna make it during crunch time. Proactive, personal responsibility. I don't think your good faith has let you down here. Dynasteria (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Addendum: It applies to whatever side you're on. You might say it is the same call to action which Arjuna felt in the Bhagavad Gita and which caused him so much agony. This text concerning war, of course, is what Ghandi called one of the greatest doctrines of peace. Dynasteria (talk) 21:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
... Are you... Are you threatening or suggesting that people go to war? That your path about this wiki issue is... to kill folk? Jorm (talk) 23:42, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I cannot help but add to the growing pile of faux wisdom by noting Chapter 56 of the Tao Te Ching: those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 23:48, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the editor is Ghandi [sic] in this suggestion. May well be that Dynasteria is a devout practitioner of satyagraha. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per Levivich and Apaugasma. --JBL (talk) 20:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Failure to close an RfC despite consensus has been achieved

An RfC was opened in 2021 Cuban protests' talk page on the inclusion of a cause in the infobox: [525]. In light of a consensus being achieved (a rough count shows that votes for Yes account for more than a double than those for No):

Please, this requires arbitration. Ajñavidya (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Notes to admins and my version (Davide King)

As far as I am aware, the closure must be done by an uninvolved admin, certainly not by an emotionally involved user who took part to the RfC, i.e. the same user who took me here. For context, they also previously did not respect removal of the contentious (see this discussion and revision history, such as this, while I respected embargo's removal due to an RfC being opened about it). As noted by the user themselves, the RfC opener BSMRD noted "Note to Closer: There is quite a bit of discussion on this topic both above and below this RfC, which may be useful for any closure." Rather than asking an immediate closure, the RfC opener actually asked the closer (an admin, not an user who took part to the RfC itself) to consider the whole discussion, which in my view actually means to take all the necessary time to review the RfC before the closure. The user who took me also seem to ignore that Wikipedia is not a democracy based on voting or the numbers of 'yay'–'nay' but whether the arguments are based on our policies and guidelines; it is not up to them to "declare consensus", that is the job of the admins. If there is anyone to be sanctioned, it is not me. Davide King (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

When did I ask for an early closure of the RfC? Do you any evidence of that? Also, the contentious piece that you removed wasn't being discussed in a RfC at the moment I re-added it (I don't recall doing it while on RfC, but if did, I wasn't aware). You say: "[...] while I respected embargo's removal due to an RfC being opened about it." Are you sure? Consider [538] and [539]. Ajñavidya (talk) 05:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
By prematurely closing the Rfc, when that is the job of an admin or uninvolved and experienced user. Did you ignore the part of the edit summary where I literally stated "try possible, bold compromise for the infobox" and tried to appease with you by adding 'authoritarian', 'lack of civil liberties (freedom of association and political freedom)', which you wanted? See also Wikipedia:Be bold, this, and this. The RfC was whether to add or not the embargo, not whether to add it with a caveat among pharentesis, which would be a compromise, and I made the edit to see what other users thought and if they supported this possible solution and compromise. Clarified this, if you want to reply me back, write me to my talk page; this is neither the moment nor the place to discuss this. Davide King (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Just wanna clarify that these two conversation that you had ([540] and [541]) were not with me, but with other editors; so I don't know what you mean by bringing them up here. Ajñavidya (talk) 03:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Ajñavidya, it appears that you attempted to close the RfC the same day that it was opened, with a result that favours a position you have advocated for on the talk page in question, and as such, David King's reversion was entirely appropriate. RfCs generally run for at least a month before there is a procedural close and can in fact run for much longer if contributions remain steady. One of the major advantages of an RfC is that they pull in opinions from editors disinterested in the content of the article who can give an unbiased policy read on an editorial dispute. They absolutely should not be closed by someone who has already been party to the underlying dispute, and certainly not mere hours after the RfC is opened. The 4:2 strict !vote ratio (which you described technically accurate and yet at the same time rather misleading terms of a 2:1 ratio) is not much of a consensus when you consider there have been a half dozen !votes total and you really haven't waited for input from the broader community. Furthermore, note that despite the sometimes confusing nomenclature, "!vote" consensus discussions are not decided purely on a straightforward numerical support basis: rather the closer will need to consider the result in light of broader community consensus as codified in project policies, which is another reason why said closer should ideally have no previous involvement in the dispute.
Please let the RfC run its course (there is WP:NORUSH here) and then let an uninvolved party close the discussion--it needn't be an admin, but ideally would at least be someone with experience sorting consensus conclusions from community discussions on contentious issues, and (again) should definitely be someone without "skin in the game" as the idiom goes. If push comes to shove, and you find yourself waiting after the 30 days, you can always ping me and I'll make an effort at figuring out where consensus has landed. You can also make such a request at WP:AN, WP:VPP, and other central community discussion spaces. Regardless, there is no behavioural issue here with regard to David which require community intervention. Snow let's rap 00:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll definitely consider it. Ajñavidya (talk) 05:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Ajñavidya, consider reading WP:NACINV, which states: "editors should never close any discussion where they have !voted", which appears to be the case here. As noted by Snow Rise as well, this seems like a premature close, having been done only four days after it started. Isabelle 🔔 00:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The outcome for "yes" is pretty clear, but the lack of awareness that would lead one to think they can close a discussion that they also voted in is pretty staggering. Zaathras (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Overturn and promptly reclose. Ironically I was multi-task preparing an WP:AN/RFC request for close when I saw this. The RFC should be closed, the general result was clearly correct, however Ajñavidya never should have preformed an involved close. Especially not given the vociferous minority opposition and entirely predictable challenge. Ajñavidya I don't know how much (if any) experience you have in closing, but I'd be happy to answer questions or offer advice in this area. I have experience and I find it a very interesting specialty. Of course the first advice is to to avoid any closure where anyone might credibly claim an actual or perceived conflict of interest. The cost of a potential challenge outweighs any hoped-for benefit of getting it done quicker or "easier".
  • Informational note: Davide King please be aware that RFC closures do not require an Admin. A closure may not be reversed solely because the closer was not an Admin.[542] Alsee (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Alsee, I was not aware that the closure may not necessarily be an admin but by any uninvolved (key word) and experienced user (which is not the case here, as Ajñavidya voted), as clarified by Snow Rise ("it needn't be an admin, but ideally would at least be someone with experience sorting consensus conclusions from community discussions on contentious issues"). This does not justify the fact an involved user (who voted) closed the RfC and claimed consensus. To all other involved users, please keep in mind that Mathglot also opposed early closure. See this and Mathglot's "Very strongly opposed to any snow close ... I am firmly against any premature closure until the normal Rfc period has run its course, which if I'm not mistaken, is 18 August. I'm sure I appeared too late in the process for anything I say now to have any effect, but I feel it's important to get the data out there and on the record." There is no need to rush. Davide King (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi Alsee. Can you be more specific at to why you think an early closure is appropriate here? Looking at the RfC in question, it seems appropriately approached, has only been open a few days, and currently has a 6:6 support/opposition !vote ratio, including responses from regular editors of the article and fresh perspectives, with continuing engagement from new FRS contributions. So in pretty much every observable respect, this is the polar opposite of the narrow circumstances in which community standards authorize a WP:SNOW close.
Mind you, I'm open to the possibility that I missed something here (in part because I believe I recognize your name as an old hand in project spaces), but as a veteran editor you surely know that you need a better argument than "I think the premature close by an involved editor was flawed, but still would have resulted in the right conclusion." That's not sufficient cause to abrogate the usual WP:RfC/WP:Consensus standards and close the discussion when feedback is ongoing and has, thus far, not resulted in a concrete consensus. There's WP:NORUSH here, so why would we take the extraordinary action of shutting down an RfC, just a few days in, with an evenly split !vote, with feedback ongoing? We need a strong procedural argument for that beyond that you think it would result in the better outcome for the article, because that would very much beg the question and subvert our consensus building process. Snow let's rap 21:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Snow Rise I appreciate you recognizing me and, given how unreasonable my post must have seemed to you, phrasing your comment as respectfully as you did. There was a misunderstanding - we're both sorta right chuckle. There are TWO RFC's on that page. You appear to have looked at the bottom one, which is indeed closely split. The RFC at issue here is the top one. This one has been open a few days longer, but still admittedly short. My close analysis, if I were an uninvolved closer, goes like this: The initial low-information votes on the RFC were 2-Yes vs 3-No. I would give little weight to the first 5 votes. The next person posted a pile of sources. From that point on the RFC went 14-Yes vs 3-No, with a majority explicitly citing the posted evidence as conclusive. Basically the RFC ended the moment the evidence was posted. Regarding early closure, aside from the outcome already being clear, this is a high traffic active-event page. Readers are not being well served. The page is sitting on The wrong version because (in my opinion) the majority side are following polite Wikiquette while the minority side have (in my opinion) used dubious tactics to push whatever they want while the RFC is in progress. I'm tempted to edit the page to the majority version, but I am generally averse to editing any issue under active RFC. In this case I actively anticipate any majority-edit is likely to be warred as long as the RFC is open. Waiting a month basically allows the minority to stonewall the page until it (mostly) doesn't matter anymore. I normally take the long view of getting it right eventually, but there are a LOT of people currently reading this active event. Alsee (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Ah, see I thought there must be some rational explanation for that incongruity! Please forgive my confusion on the matter: there was a lot of topical and procedural overlap on those two RfCs (including involved parties), so I was not able to discern from the forgoing discussion that it was the former rather than the latter RfC at issue--though in truth I should have looked for the reverted closure in the edit history anyway, as a matter of prudence. Anyway, thank you in kind for the courtesy and understanding of your own response, as well as for the clarification. I will have to review my comments above to make sure that the feedback provided remains germane with regard to all the specific, but thankfully at first blush I think my previous commentary (up until my immediately previous post to you) mostly applies equally as well to the former RfC as much as the latter, being rather generalized to some features they share in common. That said, and turning a more particularized eye to the correct RfC in question, with a current !vote of ~15:6, and only six days in, I'm still not sure that I would personally feel this is a case of SNOW: it's a borderline case, I feel, and I tend to err on the side of further discussion in those circumstances. But with appropriate context, your argument and perspective that it does in fact meet the burden certainly looks much, much more reasonable! Snow let's rap 01:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Textbook case of assuming bad faith:

The page is sitting on The wrong version because (in my opinion) the majority side are following polite Wikiquette while the minority side have (in my opinion) used dubious tactics to push whatever they want while the RFC is in progress.

Alsee, Did you really just say that? How about, the "minority side" has published actual data from a neutral query (including changing their vote afterward, based on the result), while the "majority side" has published nine highly non-representative sources supporting their viewpoint, not one of which appears in the top twenty results of a neutral, unbiased query. I have no illusions about how this Rfc will go, but your assertion about the motivations of anyone not agreeing with you is to be condemned. WP:DUE WEIGHT is policy; the "dubious tactics" at that Rfc are subverting due weight by concocting a set of WP:CHERRYPICKED sources that turns reality on its head. And cool your jets; this Rfc will be closed like any Rfc, when the time is right. And hopefully, only by an Admin. Mathglot (talk) 19:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Mathglot (1) I stand by my statement (2) "dubious tactics" does not assume, assert, nor require bad faith (3) As far as I am aware you are entirely uninvolved in which version is currently displayed.
I welcome an admin closing this RFC, but as an experienced closer I see no reason it would require an Admin. Alsee (talk) 06:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, Alsee. The truth is that I don't have experience closing RfC's. I was basing myself on WP:RFCCLOSE, which states in point 2: "The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time, and one of them can remove the {{rfc}} template." I wasn't aware that there were additional rules to the process further than those four listed there, and since the consensus became pretty obvious 3 days after the RfC was started, I thought I could proceed. This was not the case, and that's my bad. Ajñavidya (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive IP- persistent hoaxes, draft/page protection removal requests, etc.

107.146.244.150 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've tried on multiple occasions, but at this point, it seems like the IP simply is not understanding some of the stuff on Wikipedia:

While it's seemingly not intentional on their part, the IP is becoming quite disruptive with all of these ongoing issues. Will also note I've opened a previous ANI discussion here dealing with the same IP, that one mainly in regards to the hoax/fake drafts and articles, which can be viewed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1068#107.146.244.150 - disruptive editing, hoax articles/drafts, etc.. I also suggest a viewing of their filter log, most of which just proves the issues explained above.

Thanks in advance. Magitroopa (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I accidentally removed your comment because I was trying to remove all of mines and not yours. 107.146.244.150 (talk) 00:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I am tired of all of this and this needs to stop. 107.146.244.150 (talk) 00:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry. 107.146.244.150 (talk) 00:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I support a block as IP is either WP:NOTHERE or if they really are editing in good faith, WP:CIR applies. Their conduct in the face of every possible warning has just been that bad. I would normally AGF about this, but this IP has been brought to ANI before, which did nothing. The IP has been warned nearly a dozen times on their talk page, again, with no effect. They do not appear interested in editing constructively or collaboratively. They do not appear interested in learning the policies or guidelines, or in building consensus in any way. Hence, WP:NOTHERE. --Shibbolethink ( ) 01:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I am interested in editing. 107.146.244.150 (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I may be inactive. 107.146.244.150 (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Given all the above and the random comments in other sections of this noticeboard from the IP, I've blocked for a month on the basis of WP:CIR. Acroterion (talk) 03:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

LTA IP

This IP 146.90.34.153 is an LTA, violating WP:NOTBROKEN and WP:OVERLINK. Many IPs have been blocked for this (unfortunately I haven't kept a list, but a trawl of my edits to WP:AIV would turn them up), most geolocate to Portsmouth in the UK. There is a related sockpuppet case Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/82.22.42.5. 143.159.244.165 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is also related. DuncanHill (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1031#IP_editor,_violating_WP:NOTBROKEN,_unresponsive. DuncanHill (talk) 11:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. That discussion you linked to appears to be archived. Should I start a new thread on the first page of that board and link to the archived thread? Or what else should I do next? Romomusicfan (talk) 11:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
To open a further Sock puppet investigation about it go to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations and enter 82.22.42.5 as the sockmaster. DuncanHill (talk) 11:34, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. Have entered report in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/82.22.42.5 Hope I've filled it all out correctly.Romomusicfan (talk) 12:59, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether to be flattered or offended by your description of me as an administrator, but just to be clear, I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Admin corps. DuncanHill (talk) 13:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
LOL okay, have sorted that bit out.Romomusicfan (talk) 13:27, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: Thanks for the extra info! I knew something seemed familiar about this one but I couldn't place it ... don't we even have an LTA page for this one due to the Portsmouth connection? Daniel Case (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: I've just been reverting and going to AIV since my initial ANI thread. DuncanHill (talk) 15:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

GUtt01 - IDHT

GUtt01 (talk · contribs) complained about the premature NAC of 3 TfDs which, on procedural grounds, I reopened & relisted. They have now run their course and were closed as No consensus by Plastikspork. In a fit of WP:IDHT, GUtt01 renominated all 3 templates within around 12 hours of the previous closure

I closed the three discussions as an abuse of process. While happy to see my use of the tools 10 days ago to reopen & relist GUtt01 now contends I shouldn't do admin stuff. This has descended into WP:DISRUPTIVE editing. Cabayi (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

But TfDs guidelines don't state that when a TfD is closed either with no consensus or Keep, that a new one can be started. If there were guidelines about it, I wouldn't have done so - as it is, it doesn't stipulate anything of the sort. Besides, WP:IDHT would imply I was the nominator of the discussions, which I was not, even if I highlighted that the original TfDs had been prematurely closed by their nominator against the rules. GUtt01 (talk) 15:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
You participated in the original discussions (hist). Starting new discussions hard on the heels of the closure of the first is WP:IDHT behaviour on your part. Reverting the closure of your fresh discussions is WP:DISRUPTIVE. It shouldn't matter to you whether I am an admin or not when you are deciding whether to engage constructively or dismissively. You have gotten into a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and need to get out of it asap. Cabayi (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Cabayi: May I apologise for the trouble I may have caused you. I've had a sudden thought on the matter before you made that last response, and... maybe I might have actually acted in a manner similar to WP:RECENTISM. I will rescind the discussions for now, and wait for a while to see how things pan out. If after a few months, I feel the templates have issues based on my reasons, that haven't been resolved by other methods, would that be reasonable? If you suggest a year, I will abide by it. I am so sorry, I may have let my feelings on the matter make me act irrationally. Slap me on the wrist, or give me what you feel is appropriate punishment; I won't allow it to be used as an act of forgiveness, but I realise that perhaps I was too abrupt in the matter.

I might also recommend that something is done to avoid this happening again - it would probably be appropriate to make clear in the TfD guidelines that if a discussion has ended, that a new TfD should not be made shortly after its closure: I probably could have avoided giving myself this headache. And do let the other editor know I apologize too, if I don't do it myself. GUtt01 (talk) 15:16, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@GUtt01: Opening a new TfD, immediately after the same TfD failed, is dismissive of your fellow editors, and disruptive, and thus obviously inappropriate (and so—like putting beans up your nose—doesn't need to be explicitly prohibited). And in fact I'm sure you already knew all this. Paul August 23:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Technically speaking, not really. Even so, I wasn't thinking quite clearly on this matter. I've chosen to end the matter by undoing my actions and just leaving this for a good while. GUtt01 (talk) 23:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Signs of a deeper problem

I suspect that this matter regarding TFD is another indication that GUtt01 has issues with respecting other editors in general.

To provide some background, GUtt01 has a history of engaging in edit wars when they disagree with edits made by other editors:

  1. GUtt01 was blocked in December 2019 for violating 3RR, see [543]. In a subsequent discussion on their talk page (see [544]), they said, I made a catastrophic mistake there and I gonna be left with regret on several things such as not engaging in discussion and failing to heed 3:RR. I'm gonna try my best to engage in discussion if a dispute on editing (except for vandalism and introduction of false information) occurs. (Emphasis added)
  2. They engaged in another edit war in March 2020 at Sonic the Hedgehog (film) (see diffs: [545], [546], [547], and [548]); while this looks like another 3RR violation, it wasn't treated as such at the time since no one said anything about it at AN3.
  3. They received another warning for edit warring in July 2020, see [549]. This report did not result in a block since they voluntarily stopped edit warring after the AN3 report was made, see discussion on their talk page. (This report also includes information regarding their history of edit warring prior to the 3RR block in 2019.)
  4. To GUtt01's credit, they seem to have taken the earlier discussions to heart, as their contribution history didn't show any indication of edit warring until the above TFDs were opened.
  5. The three templates at issue here were proposed for deletion at TFD alongside several other similar templates that each listed entries in a particular video game series in the order of the chronology of their respective plots. While a consensus to delete some of the other templates was found, there was no consensus to delete these three specific templates due to the complexity of their respective storylines. After the TFDs were initially closed, GUtt01 began removing these templates from various FF7/KH/MG(S) articles (see their edit history from July 9–17.) This led to a slow, but wide-ranging edit war between GUtt01 and several other editors where the templates were removed and restored from various articles that used them. There was also a point where GUtt01 — the person who instigated this particular edit war — left a notice on another editor's talk page cautioning against edit warring.
  6. I got involved when I discussed the removal of the templates on GUtt01's talk page [550]. (I happened to notice what was going on because I happened to have one of the MGS articles on my watchlist.) As a result of that discussion, the three templates were relisted on TFD.
  7. Those TFDs were again closed without a consensus, which led to this ANI report as discussed above.

So, these are the issues of concern that seem to be important here:

  1. GUtt01 should know by now what constitutes edit warring, given the above history. The fact they did not stop and attempt to engage other editors as to how these templates should be used before I engaged them is worrying.
  2. GUtt01 leaving a notice about edit warring while engaging in edit warring themself indicates, at the very minimum, a lack of self-awareness as to how their edits are being perceived and interpreted by others.
  3. Disregarding that GUtt01 did not recognize Cabayi as being the same admin who initially relisted the TFDs, GUtt01 initially attempted to revert the new TFDs without attempting to understand why the new TFDs were being closed or why the new TFDs should not have been opened to begin with. I don't think that they understand that logically (and regardless of what the current TFD guidelines say), if re-opening a TFD that did not find a consensus was allowed without establishing a new basis for removal, then TFDs could go on forever until an overly-assertive editor forces a "consensus" in their favor.
  4. There are indications that GUtt01 isn't responsive to input from other editors who are not admins:
    1. The July 2020 edit war only stopped after a report at AN3 was opened.
    2. The most recent edit war happened because GUtt01 interpreted the initial TFDs as providing a basis to remove the templates from the bulk of the articles that they were being included in, which was not the case given that several editors made valid arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo.
    3. GUtt01 did not attempt to engage other editors even after multiple other editors were reverting their edits.
    4. While they did stop edit warring after I specifically pointed out the issue of edit warring on their talk page, that merely deferred the problem in hindsight, as it led to the issue with the TFDs that led to this ANI report.
    5. There's also GUtt01ʻs initial reaction to Cabayi closing the most recent TFDs, as discussed above.
  5. There seems to be a failure to adapt past lessons to the current situation. GUtt01 made a commitment to engage other editors in the event of a bona fide content dispute after being blocked in 2019, but that did not happen here; so, there's now a question as to the credibility of whatever other promises they may make now.

Tl;dr, I think that GUtt01 has issues getting along with other editors that will likely result in future ANI/AN3 reports if those issues are not resolved. I don't know what would be the best course of action to make that happen. Musashi1600 (talk) 14:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@GUtt01: What do you have to say about all of the above? Paul August 15:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
@Paul August: I write this, while feeling wholly ashamed and tearing up for acting irresponsibly despite promises to be responsible. I guess it is not easy to edit well when you have aspergers and learning difficulties. What I did was wrong, and shameful. I know I should have done better than this, I know I should have. I just don't want this matter being dragged out right now - I gotta learn to do better, to be better. I know I can do better in these things, and if I forget, I know the only one to blame for letting this get out of hand is myself. I still maintain the message of my first block on Wikipedia to remind me of what I did - I wish could make it so prominent a reminder, a form of self-punishment, to make me know what I shouldn't be doing. I really wish I could do better, but maybe my aspergers causes me problems because of how I don't socialise wholly a lot with other people than my own family and those I have spent enough time with. For what it is worth, I wish there could be people to say "Hey, we need to talk, because you did wrong. Can you take a moment to breathe and just read what I send you, and just tell me why you acted the way you did?" I mean...
Do editors on here, even those who become admins, ever do that? Just get people who don't mean to act but do so anyway, to get them to just talk about why they did wrong and try to help them understand better? It's not easy, but I wish I did have someone who could just help me know better. Even tell me not to get so emotional when people are reverting or disputing your edits, no matter who is right. I just... I just wish there was someone like a consuller to say, "Look. Let's try to do something different. Let's try to find another way for you to avoid this." I mean, if I have to take punishment for my actions, I would resign myself to it, but I know that an editor asking to be punished might not be learning things or admins may think that may not be the adequate solution for someone, especially if they genuinely know they did wrong.
I just wish that there was something there to help me do better. What I did above, there is no excuse. I should know quite rightly when not to do something that can become an edit war, I know I should be responsive to other editors even if they are not admins, and I know I should have honored my promise to do better. I know that for any editor, the only person who can make that change, make that editor become a better person on Wikipedia, is the very editor themselves. I just don't know now what I should do - do I improve and try to do better, or resign myself from being an editor on Wikipedia.
Whatever must be done, I know I am the only one to make that difference. It is my choice whether I become better or let others do what I am not doing for Wikipedia's future. GUtt01 (talk) 20:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Economy of West Bengal socks/trolls

Economy of West Bengal (edit talk history links watch logs)

This article (and related articles) were discussed here in June. Things died down after socks were blocked, but it's blown back up again. I can't work out who is driving which changes, but it's definitely in need of admin attention once more. pauli133 (talk) 23:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I semi-protected the article for three months and am hoping pauli133 will clean it up. Ponyo commented in the "discussed here in June" link and may be able to work out what else needs to be done. Johnuniq (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, that's a start. Can that be bumped up to ECP? I'm already getting interference. pauli133 (talk) 12:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Since Johnuniq applied semiprotection earlier today there have been 16 more edits including edits by two users who are now blocked. There is a steady stream of red-linked accounts, suggesting the possibility of off-wiki recruitment. Keep in mind WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Blscholljim/Archive which is all about various Economy of X articles. I've increased Johnuniq's protection to ECP for three months. EdJohnston (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
There have been so many Blscholljim socks and sleepers recently created. I'll update the SPI shortly.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Alalch Emis

This editor has an ongoing issue with edit warring and WP:ICANTHEARYOU talk page behavior. There were blocked from some articles related to the January 6 attack earlier this year for 3 months for this reason, but I have not seen improvement since their return. They have continued to edit war and ignore/bulldoze anyone they disagree with. Most recent example is [551] after three editors expressed varying degrees of disagreement with the idea at the related discussion. Other examples of this behavior since the expiration of their block include [552], [553], [554], [555]

Looking at their contributions, their edits are focused on the January 6 attack but similar behavior has been exhibited at Zangezur corridor: [556], [557], [558].

Attempts to address the issues with the editor have been removed without comment eg [559], [560], [561] so bringing it here. They have a good eye for article structure and organization and are quite competent with the technical aspects of editing, so I think a 1RR restriction might address the behavioral stuff and be better for the project than a topic ban, which would remove them completely from their area of interest. Thoughts?

Notifications:

[562], [563]VQuakr (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I am not edit warring or bulldozing, and I'm not displaying WP:ICANTHEARYOU behavior. I believe that my words, and actions (and outcomes thereof), speak plainly in support of my not being blameworthy. Instead I blame VQuakr for conducting themselves relatively poorly in what could still be (or very nearly could have been) a normal content dispute, which I believe to be apparent from his words and actions, such as this revert, which is clearly damaging to that article. This is how recent events can be summed up: In a recent dispute VQuakr defends certain extremely bold edits by Love of Corey (who tends not to defend said edits very actively). When these changes are disputed by myself, VQuakr merely opposes the disputant, without substantively defending the changes, and treats this highly unstable and inherently controversial newly-emerged state of the topic area as a completely regular status quo. In my trying to move the discussion along, he tends to accuse me of owning the articles in the topic area, of needing to be WP:SATISFIED, and tries to police me without grounds by posting relatively numerous attention-diverting messages on my talk page, which I find to be a facetious tactic to undermine normal dialogue. You can read more on the broader dispute which is fundamentally about article size here.
I should also add that my contribution to the Zangezur corridor article was significantly positive, and contributed to that incredibly fraught subject having a stable and readable article. When a disputant found fault with my approach to that article (and it's problematic AfD), they were essentially rebuked by an administrator -- read here.
The reason for my earlier block is unrelated to the behaviors which VQuakr now alleges.
I would also like to add that today, preceding VQuakr's request here, especially after the recent edits in the Law enforcement response to the 2021 United States Capitol attack article, I became aware that our dispute probably won't resolve efficiently without more significant involvement of other editors, and I started typing a Dispute resolution request. I believe our dispute should go through standard Dispute resolution. — Alalch Emis (talk) 19:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
(ec) I do not agree that your previous block is unrelated. To be fair I am not aware of any recent examples of you editing or archiving other editors' posts which was a factor then, but the issues of ownership, ignoring discussion, and repeating disputed edits were problems then and are still problems now. Even in your reply above your reference to "moving the discussion along" is indicative of part of the problem: you should not think of it as your role to moderate the discussion or decide whose reasoning has merit. Editor-focused communications are supposed to go on user talk pages; the fact that you consider input from others "facetious" is why we are here. I disagree with your characterization of what this dispute is fundamentally about (the article size discussion is just another example). VQuakr (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
To clarify the claim by Alalch Emis: When a disputant found fault with my approach to that article (and it's problematic AfD), they were essentially rebuked by an administrator -- read here. El C criticized the manner in which the "disputant" conducted themselves everywhere on the AfD page; it was not an endorsement of anything Alalch Emis said or did. Schazjmd (talk) 20:33, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
VQuakr, for the sake of clarity, could you explain what is at issue with the Jake Angeli diff and the three Zangezur diffs? From the perspective of uninvolved editors, those just look like edits. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I did not repeat disputed edits then, did nothing even remotely resembling edit warring (confusingly there is something on my talk about 1RR from around that time, but it's simply a mistake; neither was 1RR active not did I even revert once to my knowledge), and that is not why I was blocked. You've mixed up then and now. It's really fundamentally unrelated with your current allegations. I participated mostly in the naming debate, and my conduct, at a certain point, became seen as "imposing and overstepping" (on the talk page, with regard to certain processes) -- no one credibly accused me of owning the article (seems superficially similar perhaps, but really it's a different kind of behavior), or making any disruptive changes to the article then. By "moving the discussion along" I did not mean moderate the discussion, I meant "discuss". I can hold an opinion that my position has more merit than yours, and that doesn't mean I am "deciding" anything. I stand by everything I've said so far in this thread, and deny any wrongdoing (I did not edit war, I did not own the article, did not bulldoze, did not display a WP:ICANTHEARYOU behavior). You can't establish this to be true. A content dispute between two editors is not an "Editor-focused communication". I also stand by the assertion that the root of the dispute is a disagreement around organizing content based on perceived article size problems.
Recently it was shown that all along your sense of priorities regarding what's needed (and naturally extending from that: what's appropriate; what's generally expected, and what's bold; how to approach disputes etc.) was distorted by your erroneous belief that the article is too big, citing "300 kB" as a relevant thing. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
You are not an authority on my motivation. But since you brought it up, here are two relevant diffs of mine: "300 kB", "Fine, fair point regarding raw size". The fact that you are still bringing up the former when I conceded and clarified in the latter is another example of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. VQuakr (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm only bringing it up to put things in context and defend myself from allegations. The reader will easily see that I am presenting things in a relevant time frame, and will see from your replies to my comments that your bedrock argument was article size. You said "fair point" later on, only after multiple disputes have already formed up, and have shown a lack of flexibility with how to finally resolve them. It has led to you actually becoming disruptive, for example when you reverted 'Police injuries' in the 'Law enforcement' article. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Why do you keep throwing out things that are so trivially, provably false? My "fair point" concession was 7 hours after you pointed out the issue, [564], and was my first edit anywhere on WP after your post. You didn't and don't have consensus for the 'Law enforcement' change, and your attempt to force it through was the last straw that landed us here. VQuakr (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Nothing I've said is false. What are the other things that are "provably false"? Let's go back to your "7 hours": It's easy to see from the h2 talk section what time frame I'm referring to when saying "later on". — Alalch Emis (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
@Firefangledfeathers: Jake Angeli: edit was made paired with this talk page post that ignored the opinions of three other editors, one of whom started the discussion because they were unsure if the material should be added and two (including myself) that expressed concern that the addition would be premature. This is an example of behavior that I characterize as "bulldozing". Zangezur: reverts were made in after concerns were raised on the talk page, [565]. Those might be merely incautious since it appears to be mostly a two-editor disagreement. VQuakr (talk) 21:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Orignal poster wondered not sure how exactly to cover it in the article, I showed it. Seeing is believing. You reverted, and we have an ongoing content dispute. Great! Same poster expressed support for inclusion upon seeing the edit. All of that was excellent. I absolutely stand by my edit. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
That's a falsehood. OP's actual reply was balanced, not an expression of support: [566]. And you again glossed over the part where you ignored the other editors' opinions and stuck your preferred version into mainspace. VQuakr (talk) 21:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
OP's reply is an expression of support. Now we have at least a formally presentable version of the disputed content point to go by, and can make drafts on the talk page, based on it, or keep discussing, propose other things etc. This is the freedom afforded to us on Wikipedia. Your criticism is not based on anything solid here. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User repeatedly adding copyright content

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User Bittoomittal is repeatedly adding copyright content to Wikipedia, copying content straight from news articles and pasting it onto their created Wikipedia article Zorawar Fort. I fixed the article by removing/rewriting content and adding references before marking it as reviewed but the creator persists with adding more and more content and has ignored all administrator messages on their talk page. WaddlesJP13 (talk contributions) 01:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@WaddlesJP13: Please remember to notify reported users. I have done that for you. NW1223(Howl at me My hunts) 02:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Nightwolf1223: My bad, I definitely intended to do so but got caught up in a couple emails then completely forgot, so thank you for notifying them for me. WaddlesJP13 (talk contributions) 02:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
  • The editor in question has a history of drive-by editing: a day in 2014, two days in 2020, and a day this year. It may be that we have seen all that we will see from this editor this year. Worth also pointing out that their entire editing history includes 0 edits to talk pages, so there's a good change they simply don't understand that collaborative part of the process. The fact that they've created articles but not the talk pages for them reinforces that for me. Reaching out on a talk page or using edit summaries to encourage them to discuss edits might help. That said, the obvious copyvio is problematic. I don't think this is a case of WP:NOTHERE; more WP:NOTHEREVERYOFTEN or WP:NOTHEREENOUGHTOKNOWPOLICY. Stlwart111 02:28, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Stop x nuvola.svg Blocked indefinitely. Also, has never used a talk page of any kind. El_C 02:58, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
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Paula Abdul, WP:BLP violations

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Please protect the article, rev/delete the malicious crap and block the responsible accounts. Thanks, 2601:188:180:B8E0:BD4A:4B03:FD4C:CE7 (talk) 00:46, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

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Personal attacks by User:Ashlebbay

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User:Ashlebbay had vandalized my userpage and had added the words "mairan" and "confirmed thayoli" [567]. The word "mairan" apparently means "pubic hair" in Malayalam [568] [569], and "thayoli" is a curseword which means "motherfucker" [570] [571]. Chariotrider555 (talk) 15:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Stop x nuvola.svg Blocked indefinitely. Indeed, it's a bit much. As noted on their talk page, being inexperienced isn't some kind of a magic exemption from misconduct that'd be prohibited pretty much anywhere else. Assurances will need to be provided that such misconduct won't be repeated again. El_C 16:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
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Imperialreal

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Upon being reverted at the Timurid Empire article, said user, as he restored his own edit, wrote: "You Munafiq Burn in Jahannam."[572]

  1. Munafiq = "Munafiq is a person who in public and in community shows that he is a Muslim but rejects Islam or propagate against it either in his heart or among enemies of Islam. The hypocrisy itself is called nifāq (نفاق).[2]"
  2. Jahanam = "hell"

So basically, "you hypocrite fake Muslim burn in hell", which goes without saying is a gross violation of WP:NPA and WP:BATTLE."

He also said this in a earlier edit summary;

"No Kafirs allowed in personal Islamic Rules."

Kafir = Infidel. I guess I don't need to say more than that.

--HistoryofIran (talk) 15:29, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Definitely violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL.VR talk 15:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
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Copy-paste votes at hundreds of AfDs

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There are at least two accounts that appear to be copying and pasting votes across hundreds of AfDs, with evidence that they don't read the AfD before voting.

Rondolinda copies and pastes these votes:

There are times Rondolinda votes on AfD, then votes again on that AfD (24 minutes later), then realize they've voted twice and removes the second vote. Rondolinda also votes on AfDs after they have been closed. Here, Rondolinda copied and pasted the same vote at 3 different AfDs within 2 minutes[573][574][575]. Cyphoidbomb wrote that Rondolinda had "limited English reading comprehension skill". I don't believe that Rondolinda was able to go through these articles this fast. GreenC also noted the copy and paste nature of their votes. Rondolinda was previously blocked for copying and pasting content into articles, but unblocked by Drmies (courtesy ping).

TheDreamBoat copies and pastes these votes:

Several times TheDreamBoat votes on an AfD, then votes again on that AfD (32 minutes later), then realizes they had voted before and removes the second vote. There are several times when TheDreamBoat will vote on AfDs that have been closed already. There are at least two times[576][577] when TheDreamBoat voted "Non notable player" on AfDs that were actually about buildings/places. TheDreamBoat's copying and pasting into articles was previously noted (though the copied material wasn't copyrighted).

Does anyone else think this behavior is of concern? VR talk 14:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Yes. Though, I note thy are also copy/pasting "Keep" votes as well [578] [579]. I'm just going out, but I would suggest a temporary partial block from Wikipedia space for both accounts while we work out what's going on? Black Kite (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • (ec) Certainly. Topic bans would be in order, though they would probably pop up elsewhere. Do either actually do anything else? Or what BK says. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Call me crazy but I have a theory of sorts. Both have a shared interest in People's Mujahedin of Iran, an article that has attracted much sock puppetry and is currently at arbitration. Prior to this AfD copy-pasting, TheDreamBoat was accused of being dormant but showing up to RfCs to vote, then going dormant again. I wonder if this is an attempt to prove the contrary, and I wonder if this is being carried out by a click farm. Sorry if this is an outrageous theory.VRtalk 15:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
You may be crazy, but that doesn't mean you're not right. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 15:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Not an outrageous theory. I reached the same conclusion a while ago, and I think that is exactly the case. Copy-pasta AfD votes, obviously both using their own templates, seems to be cover up for their RfC vote stacking and similar activity at MEK-related pages. MarioGom (talk) 15:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
AFAIK CheckUser seems to have been unsuccessful in the past, as this might be tightly coordinated meatpuppetry and not strict socking. See editor interaction, consolidated contribs. MarioGom (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Black Kite, I indef p-blocked them from the project space. Though they haven't edited sine July 13, I think we may as well. El_C 15:09, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • El_C The other account has been editing today. I've done the same for them. Black Kite (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oops, reading comprehension failure. Thanks. El_C 17:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Obvious sock puppets of one another (and probably an older master, maybe Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Atlantic12/Archive where one was reported). They both previously overlapped on a few Iran related articles. The both started this AfD activity in February 2021, and have since both been active almost exclusively in AfDs each month through July 2021[580][581]. Add to this the same voting patterns, and it's a ringer. Most of their votes are probably done just to increase edit count, they seem to vote on cases of clear consensus. Their overlapping votes (interaction tool) seem benign, while the Iran related stuff is shared POV.--Eostrix (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 16:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    For those not familiar with it, Atlantic12 SPI involved 2 separate blocked groups, and 1 independently blocked account. I think there were probably 3 sockmasters involved, even if they had a shared agenda. MarioGom (talk) 16:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Connecting to the muddy and stale (since 2018) Atlantic12 SPI will be complicated and require case specific expertise. However blocking these two as socks of one another is easy. They violated the multiple account policy multiple times by voting in the same AfDs, and it is obvious by their editing pattern that they are the same person or at the very least following the same particular template of voting instructions for whatever reason, which is an obvious shared source. A CU might uncover more of these, but whatever CU finds on these two they are strongly linked behaviorally.--Eostrix (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 16:40, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Has anyone tried talking to them about this before floating ABF theories? Levivich 16:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    WP:DUCK (the pair to each other) and Wikipedia:Our social policies are not a suicide pact apply. How would they come up with this AfD voting scheme independently, both together, in February 2021?--Eostrix (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 16:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Reported at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TheDreamBoat, as this is the right venue to discuss socking/meatpuppetry evidence. MarioGom (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    @Esotrix: "AFD voting scheme"? That's the ABF I'm talking about. AGF isn't a suicide pact, but it is a starting point. Did we start with AGF or did we go right to AFD voting scheme and SPI? They might know each other IRL and not realize that what they're doing is problematic. How would they know if no one ever told them? (BTW, both those links are essays and AGF is policy, meaning AGF has broad community consensus and the other two don't.) Levivich 17:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Levivich I have tried talking to Rondolinda twice. It was after this talk when they stopped their copy and paste behavior at Bangladeshi schools and moved on to AfDs. The second time I asked them about Sea Ane. Sea Ane had started generic mass voting at RFCs, also in February 2021. Like Rondolinda, Sea Ane had also been indef blocked for copyright violations. Both Rondolinda and Sea Ane were created in 2018, but had remained relatively dormant until 2020 and 2021, respectively. Rondolinda responded I was ABF.VRtalk 17:12, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    I don't understand what User:Sea Ane has to do with User:Rondolinda and User:TheDreamBoat and their AFD !votes. I don't see where you've addressed the topic of this thread--AFD votes--with Rondolina or TheDreamBoat directly before posting this. (Although I see you have had concerns about Rondolina going back over a year based on their talk page, but not about this.) Also, as you know because you're a party, there is an open Iranian arbcom politics case right now. If you think this is MEK disruption, I think you should raise it there; Arbcom will have a much fuller picture than ANI will at this point. Have you considered that all that's necessary to get them to stop making copy-and-paste AFD votes is to ask? (Do you know these aren't the first two users doing this, and in the past, we've simply asked users to stop, and they've stopped, without sanctions? In some cases, we've had to sanction, but not always. Cookie-cutter AFD votes, and "spam voting," isn't a new or unique problem.) Levivich 17:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    (ec)They vote in the same manner. Same template. A very problematic template which involves rapid fire copy-pasted voting (3 in one minute: [582][583][584]). In theory it could be two people coordinating the same problematic behavior as well as the same votes in Iranian politics. Sure, in theory this is possible, but Occam's razor wouldn't go that way and it would still be a coordination issue given the shared discussions.--Eostrix (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 17:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    You're just arguing that you're probably right. That's not what I'm arguing. Coordination, in and of itself, is not against any rules. We coordinate all the time, it's called collaboration. What's against the rules is improper coordination (WP:MEATPUPPET), but even if this is improper coordination, it doesn't mean we don't need to talk to them! I literally just saw two users who "coordinated" (via Discord) get blocked (improperly, and then quickly unblocked by another admin) because the blocking admin didn't talk to the editors before blocking. Someone should have talked to the editors before blocking (like the blocking admin), or reporting to ANI, or SPI. The solution might be as simple as educating them about our policies. Levivich 17:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Coordinating for vote-stacking at RFCs and tag-team in disputes to create an illusion of support is improper, and that's the basis of the SPI report. I consider AFD copy-pasta crucial evidence of sock/meatpuppetry, but not the most important basis for WP:ILLEGIT. That being said, I will not add any further comments about socking here. If I have further evidence to share, I'll post it at the SPI case. MarioGom (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Of course it's improper. The first step to addressing such improper behavior is to raise it with the editors, like on their talk page, with a link to WP:MEATPUPPET, etc. Levivich 17:46, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Since both accounts are now blocked from Wikipedia space, they cannot comment here. I have dropped them both a note to comment on their talk pages to comment there if they need to, and have watchlisted both pages. As I am in the UK, it may be worth admins from other timezones doing the same. Black Kite (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
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What's appropriate as an RfC comment?

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There's currently an RfC at Talk:Andy Ngo#Request for comment: "Journalist" in lede about whether Andy Ngo should be called a journalist. I'm in a dispute with FormalDude who has decided to insult Steven Crowder during this discussion, saying "Hard to believe people are still trying to call Ngo a journalist. They'd likely call Steven Crowder a journalist too". [585] When I challenged them on this, FormalDude said "Fuck Steven Crowder. What's the issue with that?" [586] as well as "I'll hate on Steven Crowder if I damn well please, especially if it has relevancy to people calling Andy Ngo a journalist." [587]

This is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, first of all. The RfC is about whether to call Andy Ngo a journalist. FormalDude's opinion on Steven Crowder is irrelevant here. Second of all, even if it was somewhat relevant, the follow-up comments are a blatant violation of the spirit of WP:BLP. You can't just attack living people in talk page comments like this. I don't believe this is OK and I'd like to see BLP actually enforced for once. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to Chess}} on reply) 04:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment: I apologize and am sorry for any violation of WP:BLP my comments had.
(My comments saying "Fuck Steven Crowder" are in the section Talk:Andy_Ngo#Journalist_in_lead, not the RfC.) ––FormalDudetalk(please notify me {{U FormalDude}} on reply) 04:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I mischaracterized the context of these remarks. Sorry. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to Chess}} on reply) 04:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
This is not an excuse, but I was not in the best mood with @Chess due to his prior accusation that I was WP:Canvassing here in the RfC survey. ––FormalDudetalk (please notify me {{U FormalDude}} on reply) 05:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • No, of course. As I said there: in my opinion the American politics topic area would be vastly improved if we actually enforced WP:BLP (which applies to talk pages) for people talking about their political enemies. And I say this as someone who does not watch or care about Crowder at all and disagrees with his right-wing politics. It's just a consistent pattern by various editors in the topic area. I don't see how editors who feel so strongly they can't resist going off on the talk page about their political opponents can be confidently trusted to edit neutrally on articles about people from that same political side. People can go to Twitter and Reddit to grind their axes. The comment Chess quotes above comparing Ngo and Crowder seems to also cast WP:ASPERSIONS on those of us who voted to describe Ngo as a journalist per various RS which do so. FormalDude says he is sorry above, which is good and I appreciate that, but I think this should be a wake-up call for him to make sure he is really following WP:NPOV in how he edits and discusses. Crossroads -talk- 05:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I promise it was not my intent to cast any aspersions on editors with opposing viewpoints from me. I merely wanted to point out a possible similar opinion that opposing editors might hold about another person (Crowder) in a similar-ish field, which was then poorly double down upon by my use of expletives. My original statement, however, was open to whatever other editors may–or may not–think about Crowder. I hope that would not be categorized as an accusation of misbehavior of people who disagreed with me, because, again, that was not my intent.
I will make sure I am following WP:NPOV as closely as possible though, which is one of the reasons I've recused myself of editing articles about Steven Crowder, because I do have a personal conflict of interest bias against him. I can certainly agree with you that some editors who make comments similar to mine are often not be trusted to edit neutrally. It was a poor choice for me to make that comment. I am not one of those editors though, and I have never had a NPOV dispute in the mainspace that wasn't an honest good faith mistake. ––FormalDudetalk (please notify me {{U FormalDude}} on reply) 05:32, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • No, while incivil, I do not believe the comment in question to by revdelable. Cheers.09:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepfriedokra (talkcontribs)
  • Dunno about revdel eligibility or what the appropriate action should be, but 1) such comments shouldn't occur on talk pages; editors opinions about subjects, particularly their opinions about BLPs, need not be expressed onwiki. 2) some appropriate administrative action should be taken when that idea is violated. It just raises tensions unnecessarily, particularly on American politics articles, and is entirely unhelpful. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    • To expand on revdel eligibility, admins would know better, but just wanted to note that skimming the Steven Crowder article it seems to me that he fits into the Donald Trump category of persons. I've noticed that insults directed at Trump and similar high profile people (eg Tucker Carlson) are frequently made onwiki without consequence, including by admins, which somewhat sets the standard I think for what's considered improper. In particular, high profile living persons whose Wikipedia article says they've engaged in discriminatory comments or harassment tend to be considered fair game. Hence, especially since saying "Fuck XYZ" is not even an insult (although saying a BLP is "vehemently immoral" might be), I doubt it's eligible for revdel or sanctions. (regardless of whether I think it should be) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:19, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Chess, if you think it might violate the BLP, then PLEASE don't put it in the title of the thread--come on now. Drmies (talk) 12:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • ”Fuck XYZ” isn’t a BLP issue (what is it even saying about the BLP?) or even incivility (it’s not an insult to an editor). It is however WP:NOTFORUM and should be reverted (not revdel’d) on that basis. DeCausa (talk) 12:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I think the point is more general: about quoting a purported BLP-sketchy line in a section header, in a venue that's viewed nearly 100 times as much as the original one. But, that's right, no revdel needed. El_C 12:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I wasn’t responding to that - just the general point. Probably put it in the wrong place. DeCausa (talk) 13:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Not BLP violation. I'm involved with the topic but not this particular discussion. I don't think comments like this are at all helpful. Sometimes they are said out of frustration, sometimes to make a point, sometimes to express feelings about the one being... well F'ed. Still, as an expression of opinion it doesn't violate BLP so long as the target isn't an editor. This isn't a BLP violation because it doesn't accuse the target of anything. Springee (talk) 13:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Phew, that was a close one, Springee. You almost fucked up! (Thank you, thank you, I got Dad jokes for every occasion.) El_C 13:50, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • The statement "this behaviour did not violate WP:BLP" is technically true, but very much not the point. Quite arguably, BLP should be applied here, since the behaviour discussed (purely invective commentary without constructive purpose for developing encyclopedic content) violates at least the spirit of WP:ATTACK. But at the same time, this question is very much superfluous considering that our WP:HARASSMENT policy very much does apply here, by way of WP:HNE: "In alignment with the protection of editors from harassment described throughout the rest of this policy, edits that harass living or recently deceased people who are not members of the Wikipedia community are also prohibited. Per the oversight policy, harassing content will be deleted or suppressed. Editors who post such material in any namespace may be indefinitely blocked."(emphasis added). An unqualified "Fuck Person X" is undeniably harassment as it is contemplated in that policy: we wouldn't even be arguing this point if we were talking about an editor, but as just the second sentence of the policy makes clear: "Wikipedia must never be misused to harass anyone, whether or not the subject of the harassment is an editor here." (again, emphasis added). Furthermore, this article falls under discretionary sanctions twice over, being covered via WP:NEWBLPBAN and WP:AMPOL.
Mind you, even FormalDude recognizes the inadvisability of the comment. Even if we were to adopt some truly myopic misisng-the-forest-for-the-trees standard with regard to whether this kind of comment violates community supported curbs on disruptive behaviour, it still raises the question of WP:tendentious editing and of bias so strong that it raises questions about the ability of the person using such excoriating rhetoric to contribute in related areas, and might easily become the basis for the community beginning to contemplate topic bans for certain areas. Now I'm making a broad point here in order the underscore how incorrect I think are the handful of comments above that suggest there is no policy violation or anything that could be met by sanction here: that is very clearly not an outlook in conformity with policy or community consensus. But I'm also not calling for a sanction because FormalDude has seemed to get out ahead of this issue and owned up to it being non-productive and dipping into WP:disruptive. But I will also note that this is not the first time in the last few days where I've felt like we were giving FormalDude the benefit of the doubt in an ANI thread relating to their approach to discussion. Speaking solely for myself, if he ends up back again soon for anything similar, I'm going to start feeling like it's time for the community to get proactive here. Snow let's rap 14:13, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
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User:Farrel Alfaro Ho

Farrel Alfaro Ho is continuing to add unsourced information to articles despite multiple final warnings and a ban earlier this month. Is currently active, and does not seem to have responded at all to any previous warnings. Meticulo (talk) 11:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Farrel Alfaro Ho(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Lego Masters (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
Ellen's Game of Games (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)

They seem to enjoy creating hoaxes about other versions of game shows. Their previous block was due to adding hoaxes and then disrupting by trying to remove the deletion tags. They also don't communicate at all - no response to any talk page messages and, unfortunately, they don't leave any sort of edit summary, which would at least help us to see what's going through their head with some of these edits. I don't believe that their behaviour has improved at all since the previous block and feel that a further one might be necessary to prevent further disruption and vandalism. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 19:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Bbb23: waiting for you to block this real vandal. He is blocked for 1 year on IDWIKI for the exact same reason ("menyebarkan informasi palsu", spreading false information). @Meticulo: @Spiderone: please report to WP:AIV since I am blocked from there for reporting a sock as a vandal. Flix11 (talk) 02:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
I have indefinitely blocked the reported user. Johnuniq (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for blocking them. From their edit history, it's quite clear that they were WP:NOTHERE and had no intention of changing their behaviour. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 06:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Refusal to drop the stick by Manwë986

Manwë986 has refused to drop the stick on a particular photo they want used on Lee Kuan Yew, with their preference to use an older photo of a deceased man. While there's no active policy to enforce the usage of a younger photo, Manwë986 has reverted many instances of editors changing the photo without a valid reason.

While the photo in question here is copyrighted, Kohlrabi Pickle was not aware of it. Manwë986's reversion was not out of copyright concerns but their insistence of a photo of an older man, going against the first consensus to depict a younger man instead.

This is demonstrated by Manwë986's lack of sufficient knowledge over copyright when they tried to upload copyright photos and engaged with me on my talkpage over copyright. I created a vote to judge the concensus of the community, which Manwë986 failed to participate in, but nevertheless was clear not to use the photo. A mild warning to them to cease pursing the matter unless they can find a better photo was also concurred upon.

Manwë986 returned to my talkpage on 12 July, refusing to drop the stick numerous times despite my recommendations, which is their right. I finally re-directed them to discuss it on the Lee Kuan Yew talkpage instead. A third consensus, while acknowledging copyright concerns as the main factor, also cites my argument to use a younger photo.

Manwë986 threatens to continue pursuing the matter. While I initially ignored the final remark, they returned again on 27 July to yet again reinstate their preferred version of the photo.

Per Manwë986's refusal to drop the stick per WP:IDHT and actively going consensus, I am requesting for some administrative action to be imposed. Seloloving (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Because there are many freely licensed photos of Lee Kuan Yew available on Wikimedia Commons, it is crystal clear that no image restricted by copyright will be used. Do you understand that, Manwë986? Selecting among freely licensed photos is a routine content dispute. Since this has been a contentious issue for at least six months, a formal Request for comment may be the best way to establish a broad and lasting consensus. Cullen328Let's discuss it 00:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Currently, I think there is consensus, though not broad and lasting, to keep the current 1975 photo of LKY. While I agree with Cullen to have a RFC to establish a broad and lasting consensus, currently there is only a different opinion on the choice of photo so perhaps any RFC be done after seoloving's revamp?
And can we use this discussion as the current firm consensus to keep the current 1975 photo as the main photo to be used? Please do note the comments in the article's talkpage as well. Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I see that this user has been pretty disruptive and refusing to acknowledge consensus, despite the fact that there have already been three rounds of discussions on the issue. He has also tried to garner support from other users to support his stance, as stated on this user talk page (the user rejected to do so), which somewhat violates Wikipedia:Canvassing. Also, I don't mind if the 1975 photo remains in use.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
With four opposes on the talkpage, Manwë986 reinstates the photo again with an edit summary I just can't let him be disgraced like this. Clearly, this is a issue with competence and refusing to adhere to consensus, and I would recommend for a limited topic ban on Manwë986, covering any discussion of the lead photo for a period of time, or changing it, with an admin's discretion on the timeframe. Seloloving (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Having failed to gain consensus on the talkpage, Manwë986 is now edit warring while this AN/I is open [588][589]. I would suggest a partial block from the page is warranted at the least. CMD (talk) 10:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Blocked for a week. Feel free to unblock if Manwë986 shows some kind of a clue. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated WP:BLP violations in the Zina Bash article.

See the recent article history. [590], and in particular the repeated addition of content like this. [591]

In brief, two contributors (User:TrueQuantum and User:Attic Salt) have been tag-teaming to insert content into the Zina Bash article, in contravention of WP:BLP. Since it has been made perfectly clear, in reliable sources already cited in the article, that claims that Bash made a 'white power' sign are based on nothing more than 4Chan conspiracy-theory trolling, the material being added, which implies that Wikipedia takes this nonsense seriously, is a gross violation. Further comments about Kavanaugh are likewise improper, given that they simply have no bearing on events that actually occurred, rather than on a particularly silly conspiracy theory.

Any responsible contributor would surely understand that if there is a dispute about possible WP:BLP violations, the proper course of action is to resolve the matter through dispute resolution. Since however those responsible have acted in the manner they did instead, I suggest that appropriate sanctions be taken against them.AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, when I asked you what specifically is the BLP violation that concerns you: [592], [593], you did not provide an answer: [594]. Attic Salt (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
There is no 'I didn't like the answer I was given' exception to WP:BLP. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I should probably have also linked the earlier WP:BLPN discussion too - comments there seem relevant to assessing what happened later. [595] AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I fully protected the article for a week and will watch the talk page for a while. Let me know if the issue cannot be resolved with normal discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Trust me when I say that I do not want to be involved in this dispute. What first got my attention were complaints that Marquardtika was tendentiously editing Bash's page to such an extent that the editor was making attacks and accusations of sexual assault against other BLP subjects who accused Bash of making the controversial hand signal. This was particularly evident against another BLP subject Eugene Gu where Marquardtika overrode an RFC to put sexual misconduct accusations against him not only on Gu's page but also on Zina Bash's page as well. Upon further investigation I saw that Bash's page was edited in such a biased, non-neutral fashion that it looked more like a PR defense or reputation management for Bash than as an encyclopedia entry. I want us all to adhere to our policies in WP:BLP. My thoughts on this are simple. Either we discuss Bash's highly publicized hand signal during Kavanaugh's highly publicized confirmation hearing in a neutral way considering all reliable sources from all different angles or we nominate this article for deletion. We can't have a PR style reputation management entry for Bash because that undermines the credibility and neutrality of Wikipedia. TrueQuantum (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

TrueQuantum, you have repeatedly added BLP-violating content to the article. Specifically, "It is unclear whether Bash made the hand signal to distract from Kavanaugh's controversial confirmation hearing." The reliable sources aren't ambiguous at all here. Vox says "Bash was not making a 'white power hand signal'" and called the incident "fake news." The Washington Post says "The idea that the hand sign is a secret symbol for white power owes its mainstream spread to a viral troll campaign aimed at making liberals and the media look gullible....The gesture is not considered a real hate symbol by organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League." If you want to nominate the article for deletion, go ahead. But you need to stop confusing our BLP policy with "PR." Marquardtika (talk) 15:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I have not edited the article in any way other than enforcing the 3RR policy by reverting some of your contentious edits. Reverting your TE does not constitute "repeatedly adding" BLP violating content. I have not added anything to the article at all. I am simply trying to undo your TE and preserve the principles of neutrality that is central to our mission on Wikipedia. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The thing is, 3RR policy isn't 'enforced' by involved contributors adding (or restoring - the same thing, in this context) material to articles. It is enforced by taking violations of policy to an appropriate noticeboard, where an admin can, if necessary, impose sanctions on one or more of the involved parties. Though I think it is safe to assume that said admin will take due account on the explicit exemptions to WP:3RR rules which can apply when removing WP:BLP-violating content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Actually, Marquardtika, the New York Times source [596], which you keep removing, for example, here: [597], is more circumspect about whether or not Bash intended anything and whether or not the gesture is or is not offensive. We can't get into her mind, so the most that can be said is that there was an accusation. I don't know if Vox is actually considered to be a RS, but the Vox article you keep citing is clearly loaded with opinion. It is not as definitive as seem to suggest. Thanks. Attic Salt (talk) 18:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The NYT article you cite is a 2019 article about the evolution of the OK gesture. It's not particularly useful or accurate when discussing an incident that occurred in 2017. And no, we can't "get into her mind." But we can and we must identify conspiracy theories for what they are. She unequivocally did not "flash a white power sign." And we're certainly not going to say she was accused of such in the article without addressing the fact that, per the myriad reliable sources I've provided, that's a false accusation. Marquardtika (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Um, Marquardtika, the NYT article you keep removing notes that it is not always clear when the okay gesture is or is not intended to be offensive. In this respect, your quote, including mentioning the ADL, is not necessarily accurate. It is, at times, clearly used as a hate symbol. Attic Salt (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
If you genuinely don't understand how edits like this are BLP violations, you need to stop editing biographies. That you are not comprehending that saying a Mexican Jewish woman was accused of flashing a white power symbol without providing any context about who was accusing her or how this came to be is problematic. The fact that sometimes the OK sign is used as a hate symbol does not mean that she used a hate symbol. The Washington Post is very clear that she gave an OK sign with her hand to a judiciary staffer after that staffer fulfilled a request to bring Kavanaugh a glass of water. We obviously need to be extremely careful about including any content that accuses someone of making a white power symbol. That is a serious and ugly accusation. It's a shame that several editors on the Bash page don't understand the BLP issues. Marquardtika (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Um, please don't personalise this discussion. The edit you cite this was not made by me. So why do you cite it here in responding to me? I'm all in favour of providing context, but the quote you keep presenting, asserting that the gesture is "not considered a real hate symbol" is simply false. That the WP article is simply wrong. The NYT article you keep removing makes that clear. I'm not suggesting that Bash used it as a hate symbol. In fact, I'm completely agnostic on that matter. Attic Salt (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
So it is your contention that The Washington Post is wrong? You might want to take that to WP:RSN. Marquardtika (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Truequantum, trying to defend a WP:BLP violation by making a personal attack on a contributor, entirely unaccompanied by any evidence, generally isn't considered a wise tactic. I'd recommend taking a little time to figure out how Wikipedia actually works (you've only been editing since the beginning of June) before making further comments. The question of what should or shouldn't go in the Bash biography (and indeed whether there should be one at all) can now be determined at more appropriate locations than WP:ANI, and if anything needs to be discussed on this noticeboard regarding what went on with the Eugene Gu article, it will need a new thread. Accompanied by actual evidence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
That's a serious accusation, AndyTheGrump. Please show me where I have made a personal attack on a contributor. I have simply laid out the evidence of what has occurred in the editing history. Furthermore, I recommend you refresh yourself on Wikipedia policies and our ethos. It does not matter if an editor has been here for 1 day or for 10 years. We do not undervalue the contributions and opinions from any editor regardless of how long they have been editing. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
You have 'laid out' no evidence at all. Evidence, at WP:ANI, consists of links (e.g. diffs) to the relevant material, as posted by the person concerned. It doesn't consist of mere assertions that something or other happened. And no, it isn't a good idea to undervalue a contributor on the basis of how long they have been editing. It is however often relevant to how much allowance should be made for their evident lack of understanding of how things work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if TrueQuantum (talk·contribs) NeneCaretaker (talk·contribs) and 66.190.166.205 (talk·contribs) are meat puppets or sock puppets, but they are all new accounts with a sudden and similar interest in Zina Bash. Marquardtika (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Speaking of personal attacks on contributors, this false accusation is utterly uncalled for. TrueQuantum (talk) 17:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
The text "new accounts with a sudden and similar interest in Zina Bash" is completely accurate: TrueQuantum (talk·contribs) was created on 6 June 2021 and has 268 edits starting with their user page (permalink) while NeneCaretaker (talk·contribs) was created on 16 July 2021 and has 26 edits starting with their user page ("The red font for a blank user page is ugly" permalink). Regarding the issue of the article, TrueQuantum and NeneCaretaker have received the BLP discretionary sanctions notification and I will ensure that any BLP problems result in appropriate action. If anyone wants to oppose a sanction against those who came to Wikipedia to add fuel to an article, please speak up. Johnuniq (talk) 01:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Johnuniq, I'm surprised by your suggestion of sanctions. What, specifically, are you asking us to oppose? Certainly you are obliged to clearly state what you are proposing. More generally, I think the evidence you cite for a sockpuppet is flimsy. Why not request a CU to verify? Independent of that, TrueQuantum's behaviour has been both civil and well reasoned. I find Marquardtika's edits to be tedious and I view AndyTheGrump as a bully. Those are my thoughts. Attic Salt (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. This is getting pretty ridiculous. I am being accused of making sockpuppet accounts (namely that of NeneCaretaker and 66.190.166.205 without any evidence whatsoever. Now there are threats of sanctions against me for trying to enforce our policies on neutrality? I would like other administrators to weigh in here because this seems patently unfair. TrueQuantum (talk) 03:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Which 'policies on neutrality' are you trying to 'enforce', and where do they state that a participant in a dispute should be 'enforcing' them? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I second the call for a different administrator. Attic Salt (talk) 03:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Of course you do. But User:Johnuniq is a very experienced administrator and I, an even more experienced Aministrator, see no problems with the suggestion that any BLP violation after the discretionary sanctions alerts have been given may lead to sanctions. In fact, they should lead to sanctions. Doug Weller talk 12:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Please identify and cite the evidence used to justify a BLP violation and discretionary sanctions alert that AndyTheGrump placed on my talk page. I am concerned that rather than using this mechanism to protect our policies on Wikipedia, AndyTheGrump as an editor involved in this dispute is using the discretionary sanctions as a silencing tactic against me. Wikipedia is meant to be open to editors of all levels of experience and time spent here. I am highly unsettled and concerned by bullying from "experienced" editors that will degrade the quality of this encyclopedic resource. Why do I have discretionary sanctions and AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika do not? Please examine their contentious editing history and talk page comments regarding this issue. Fairness and objectivity should be values that administrators believe in. TrueQuantum (talk) 14:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You are not having discretionary sanctions 'used against you'. You are being notified that they exist. Experienced Wikipedians already know about them, and don't generally need such notifications, since they are already aware of them. I certainly was, and fully expect that if I ever violate the relevant Wikipedia policies, such sanctions will be applied. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The allegation that this BLP subject repeatedly made "white power" hand gestures at a deeply controversial, very public confirmation hearing never made much sense and has been clearly refuted. Supporters of racial justice and equality, which I hope includes all of us, should find better causes for their editing efforts than further promoting this allegation, which at this point is both a defamation and a digression. Actually, the interesting BLP question about this article is not whether we should "neutrally" report that something is possible where it obviously is not true, but whether this type of spurious but potentially life-destroying allegation against a non-prominent person should be included in a Wikipedia article at all. I have referred to this question elsewhere as the "allegations problem": when does an allegation that would otherwise not be worth mentioning, whether because it is untrue or (in other cases) because it is non-notable, need to be included because the making of the allegation itself became a public controversy. (Compare my comments here and the discussion problem here.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, You seem to be rehashing things already said. Both TrueQuantum and I have stated that this article might be worthy of deletion. But I disagree with your quotation marks about neutrality. As long as the article exists, we should certainly strive for neutrality. I also disagree with your simple assertion that the allegation is "obviously not true". We don't know that, so let's stop saying things we don't know. Regarding "further promoting this allegation", no one here is promoting an allegation. I suggest you retract that comment as unhelpful (to say the least). And, finally, TrueQuantum requested "Please identify and cite the evidence used to justify a BLP violation". For clarity, your response, here, does not do that at all. Attic Salt (talk) 15:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, this is symptomatic of a broader issue: the tendency of Wikipedia biographies of living persons (and articles in general, though that matters less) to become battlegrounds between contributors with opposing views, if there is any political context at all, and for such battleground behaviour to result in articles consisting of little more than a series of 'pro' and 'anti' sections based on marginal sourcing, chosen not to actually describe the subject biographically, but to score points. Not only is this a poor reflection on contributors, and on Wikipedia in general, but it is also an insult to readers, who I'd have to assume would rather read something less resembling the Somme after a particularly bad day. For the record, as a Brit, and thus as an outsider generally only observing US politicking from a distance, I had no recollection of knowing anything about Zina Bash before I saw the thread on WP:BLPN, and reacted to it not because I wanted to take sides, but because I saw what was so blatantly a violation of WP:BLP policy that I couldn't ignore it. As the few of you who have seen comments from me on a Wikipedia-criticism forum I participate in may have noticed (the rest of you will have to take my word for it), my own political views are about as far from those of the Trump administration, and its appointees etc, as could be imagined. If I were to pick sides, I'd be on the other side of the trenches. If my politics influenced my actions here at all (which is of course possible) it was probably because this insult to readers intelligence (to even describe it as a conspiracy theory suggests more coherence than it deserves) makes those pushing it look utterly idiotic, and consequently harms efforts to confront real-world racial bigotry from actual advocates of 'white power' etc. Real-world bigotry with real-world consequences. If people want to use Wikipedia as a political battlefield (which no doubt they always will, since being political is part of being human) they really need to use more subtle tactics than those employed here. 15:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talkcontribs)
Hi Newyorkbrad, I would like to understand your points and arguments in good faith. I do agree with you that a "potentially life-destroying allegation against a non-prominent person" has no place on Wikipedia. That is why I have repeatedly said that if Zina Bash is only known for the hand signal controversy at Brett Kavanaugh's controversial hearing, then the entire article should be deleted. What I am adamantly against is using Wikipedia as a reputation management PR service for anyone. In fact, there seems to be three main possibilities for Zina Bash's OK hand signal:
1. It may be an innocuous OK hand gesture without any bad intent. There are reliable sources that state this perspective.
2. It may be a white power hand gesture with malicious and racist intent. There are reliable sources that state this perspective and cite individuals who have been fired from their jobs and disciplined after flashing this hand signal during media interviews.
3. It may have been a way to distract from Kavanaugh's controversial hearing where accusations of sexual assault were causing significant impediments. Reliable sources have stated this possibility as well and the Washington Post noted that even after the first uproar about the hand signal, Bash did it again.
I honestly do not know which of the above possibilities are true. Also, it is not my duty as an editor to determine which is true or to fight for any single narrative here. I believe that in the interests of neutrality we must cover what the reliable sources state about this incident and let the reader come to her or his own conclusion. We cannot pick and choose what reliable sources are "true" and what reliables sources are "false." What I believe to be a violation of our principles on neutrality is to only include the sources that state that the whole incident is a "conspiracy theory." That would make Bash's page appear to be more of a PR type reputation management service since Wikipedia articles, especially BLPs, often make it to the top of anyone's Google search. Wikipedia is not here to vouch for anyone nor to repair their reputations. Our job is to make sure that for BLPs we remain absolutely neutral. Since I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the tenets of due process, the most fair scenario here is to delete Bash's page. If the page is not deleted, then portray the incident with absolute neutrality. TrueQuantum (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
How to shoot yourself in the foot in one easy lesson: "I believe this article should be deleted, but rather than nominate it for deletion, I'm going to turn it into a battlefield instead". AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't appreciate your dismissive and derisive attitude here towards me. I gave an explanation citing my reasoning based on the available evidence and sources and you simply state "How to shoot yourself in the foot in one easy lesson" and accuse me of turning the article into a "battlefield." It would have been more appropriate for you to actually go through my arguments and rebut them based on the evidence and with your own logical reasoning. That's how I expect editors to conduct themselves when discussing issues on here with maturity. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
To quote what I said earlier, when I started this thread "Any responsible contributor would surely understand that if there is a dispute about possible WP:BLP violations, the proper course of action is to resolve the matter through dispute resolution". WP:ANI is not the proper place to engage in a content dispute. What is being discussed here is behaviour - specifically, the behaviour of a couple of individuals who, when it had already been made abundantly clear that the disputed content was considered by responsible and experienced editors to violate WP:BLP policy, continued to restore it to the article. You don't have to agree with other people assessments regarding WP:BLP policy. You are however expected to at least conform to the minimum standard of expected behaviour, and discuss issues over such content properly (asking for third-party comment etc if needed) rather than edit-warring it in to 'enforce' (your own word, used above [598][599]) your preferred version of the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
So let me see if I understand this correctly. If you are making accusations that I am violating BLP guidelines despite not actually writing anything into Bash's article at all (simply reverting Maquardtika's edit once and your edit once), I am supposed to not even discuss the topic whatsoever here and take the consequences of your accusations including discretionary sanctions without defending myself. If I defend myself in the proper forum and explain my reasoning, that to you is a violation. All of this is occurring in the setting of you and Marquardtika violating the 3RR policy. Tell me how this makes sense. Also, please cite the evidence for my BLP violation on Bash's article that justifies these accusations leading to possible BLP discretionary sanctions against me rather than against you and Marquardtika. TrueQuantum (talk) 17:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump, and, again, when you were asked what the BLP violations that concerned you [600], [601], you refused to answer: [602]. Attic Salt (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Looking further into the history of the Zina Bash biography

Having looked at the history, I'd like to first state that this revert, [603] made by TrueQuantum, was absolutely in compliance with WP:BLP policy, and had I seen the material myself, would have done exactly the same thing - and quite likely pursued it further, at least to the extent of finding out who was responsible for originally adding it and asking them what the hell they thought they were doing. My endeavours to figure out who actually added have so far however been thwarted by the convoluted edit-warring that has taken place. The article history is a total mess, and reflects poorly on almost everyone concerned.

Going back to the origins of the article, one will readily observe that it has been abused as a political battleground right from the start, as competing factions alternately add their preferred spin to a facile troll-fuelled 'debate' over the position of the hands of someone sitting in the background of a Supreme Court conformation hearing. If it wasn't created for that express purpose in the first place, it might as well have been. If Wikipedia can't do better than this, it should maybe consider tightening the notability criteria for biographies of living persons further, to at least reduce the number of vacuous-battleground-biographies enough to enable less politically-motivated contributors to keep a better eye on whatever idiocy is being perpetrated on this self-proclaimed 'encyclopedia'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It looks like AndyTheGrump is completely retreating from his call for an ANI. Attic Salt (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
What the heck is a 'call for an ANI'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You brought us here, but you have declined to provide evidence of BLP violations, see: [604]. Attic Salt (talk) 18:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Given that your interpretation of multiple Wikipedia policies (as shown here [605]) is clearly entirely at odds with mine, or indeed with more or less anyone I've seen who actually understands them (e.g. your suggestion that "Perhaps the only thing that is noteworthy enough to justify a Wikiarticle on Zina Bash is this accusation. If there is to be an article on her, then the accusation needs to be discussed. Though not in unrealistic terms, like whether or not it is debunked.") perhaps you might like to ask that question of the many other people who have responded here, who appear to agree with me. I very much doubt you'd take any notice of what I said. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Topic bans

What issue do I have with the BLP policy? Attic Salt (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
You're right — this seems to be an isolated incident, and the only problematic conduct on your behalf was on Zina Bash and its talk page; for instance, this edit to remove WP:PROMO from a BLP looks uncontroversial. Changing to oppose for you, but may still support a topic ban from Zina Bash from your previous comments there.LaundryPizza03 (d) 20:28, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Very confusing. I've asked several times what the controversial conduct was. Please provide diffs. Why is that so difficult? Attic Salt (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
This edit reverted by Marquardtika (talk·contribs) and then reverted again by AndyTheGrump (talk·contribs) (after one round with TrueQuantum) is alleged to violate the BLP policy. You previously brought up a point about the sexual abuse allegations against Bash in January 2020, at Talk:Zina_Bash#January_2020_2, which was refuted by CWC (talk·contribs) and Marquardtika. I think at this point that this has descended into a content dispute where you are innocent that should have gone to WP:BLPN first (Bash has never been discussed other than this zero-reply thread by the creator), although TrueQuantum may still be problematic based on the evidence I presented. Thanks for telling me to address this more closely. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 21:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
And you really consider that edit to be so controversial that you contemplate a ban against me, specifically? Please don't complain about splinters in my eye. Attic Salt (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Rather than playing dumb, I think that Attic Salt truly does not yet understand a fundamental aspect of Wikipedia's BLP policy, which is that it is more important than most other policies, and more specifically that it is more important than otherwise basic content policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. When talking about accusations made against historical figures who lived 2000 years ago, a comment like Nope. We are not at liberty to interpret accusations as being either true or false. Accusations can be made and denied. Proof, here, does not exist. [606] might be a perfectly legitimate interpretation of policy: we just report what historians are writing about the accusation, and we don't engage in our own research about whether the accusation was true or false. The person involved is long dead anyways, and what we write about it does not have any real-world impact apart from the accuracy of our information about ancient history. When talking about living persons, however, a completely different standard applies. For living persons, the question whether we do or do not repeat serious accusations made against them can have far-reaching real-life consequences. In these circumstances, it is not enough to consider whether what we report is objective, or whether it complies with what expert sources are telling us. For example, when it comes to serious allegations that are reported by reliable sources, but which nevertheless show some of the characteristics of gossip, we would report it without a second thought in the case of historical figures (the fact that objective historians are writing about it is proof enough of its notability, and everyone likes a bit of speculation on the personal lives of the ancients). In the case of gossip about living persons, however, we are required to ask ourselves whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Basically, if it is even remotely likely to be just gossip, mere allegations without any substantive form of proof, then the preferred course is to either not include it, or to write about it very sparingly (perhaps one sentence, e.g. if it is directly relevant to something else we're writing). It doesn't matter that in principle it could be true, that there is no evidence that it isn't true, that a number of reliable sources have reported on it, etc., etc. Our first goal in such a case is not to be objective, but to avoid being complicit in defamation. Now I'm fairly confident that Attic Salt just wasn't aware yet of the extra stringency we apply to BLP's (which, by the way, includes an exemption from 3RR), and that after the explanation I have just given they will understand and agree. If, however, that would turn out not to be the case, I would support a topic ban on BLP's until they do understand. As for TrueQuantum, I can't and won't comment on their understanding of BLP policy in other articles, but I note that they too elevated neutrality above BLP concerns in the case of the Zina Bash article, and that throughout this thread they have failed to understand the importance of these concerns. I think that also for TrueQuantum, a topic ban would be in order if they should not come to understand this. Apaugasma (talk ) 23:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
"[BLP] is more important than otherwise basic content policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NOR."
Without necessarily disagreeing with some of your ultimate conclusions on content issues here, I'm going to have to push back against that statement, Apaugasma: WP:NPOV is a pillar policy of this project, and more or less by definition has a higher stature, in terms of over-arching community consensus formulated over the duration of this project, than does BLP, by a significant margin. And WP:OR is of course one of the primary outgrowths of that pillar policy explaining how we apply it in practice. Don't get me wrong, I very much support the precautionary principle which undergirds BLP, but it sometimes takes on a life of it's own in the hands of those who would like to excise content which they do not like with regard to living persons--even where good faith application of the standard WP:DUE WP:WEIGHT process clearly established an argument for inclusion. BLP was designed to work synergistically within the bounds of a policy of neutrality that is not meant to be abrogated under any circumstances, not to become a talisman that causes neutrality to be thrown out the window when we determine that information is sensitive in nature--which latter approach would be too vulnerable to abuse from POV pushers looking to sanitize articles on living but highly controversial figures.
That said, I do recognize that BLP has, as an informal cultural matter, grown into something of a standard held in greater regard than your average policy page, but as a structural matter regarding how this community has codified its priorities and over-arching community consensus on the most paramount concerns when deciding a content matter, no, WP:NPOV is not some "basic" policy which bows to BLP. Quite the opposite: in a theoretical context in which the two are in direct conflict (which in reality is almost never the case, because the nuance of both policies generally allows for threading the needle and the two being applied in concert), we would be expected by the highest level of community consensus to err on the side of neutrality. Of course, let me reiterate again, that in practice you and I might agree on the right content call in both the present circumstances as well as most others that potentially implicate both BLP and NPOV. But with regard to the statement I quote above, you are categorically incorrect as to which policy is meant to inherit the greater level of concern as a recognized fundamental policy of this project. Snow let's rap 03:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
@Snow: Yes, I struggled to formulate that without causing offense. I am of course aware of WP:CRYBLP, and I hope I did not inspire anyone to misuse BLP policy in that way. But what I meant with NPOV being basic is precisely that it is "elementary, fundamental, essential", and when I said that BLP is even more important, it was very much in the specific context of this ANI report where I was trying to convey that when evaluating a specific edit, it does not matter that it seemingly complies with NPOV if it blatantly breaches BLP. Of course, when an edit blatantly breaches NPOV it also doesn't matter that it seemingly complies with BLP, but in practice this is just not often the direction of concern. You are right to say that BLP works within the bounds of NPOV, but even within that framework it generally does function as a kind of additional rule, and yes, it often does trump other concerns. This statement is descriptive rather than prescriptive. It is just a fact that, because BLP violations may have serious real-life consequences, we tend to be very sensitive about them, more so even than with edits violating our most fundamental content policies (God knows that more than half of the encyclopedia consists of those). As an additional 'check' type of rule, BLP is far less central and therefore in a way far less important than our core content policies, but when it comes to enforcing rules, we just tend to be far more strict on BLP, and in that way grant it more importance. Anyways, that's surely what's relevant here. Apaugasma (talk ) 05:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
That's a good summary of the situation, particularly when we consider your caveat that it is a descriptive rather than prescriptive description. That said, sometimes that is precisely a part of the concern for me: that the weight of BLP relative to other important policies and principles prioritized in the BLP context itself is sometimes out of proportion to the relative support in established community consensus. I sometimes think the community is long overdue to have an express discussion about this issue on a mass scale, to resolve it one way or the other. Either we should have some more explicit language so as to define the contours of BLP when it is in conflict with nominally more fundamental policies, or the ways in which it can permissibly abrogate those principles should be agreed upon by the community and expressed in policy. And I very much see arguments that appeal to me running in both directions, but at the end of the day there needs to be more clarity than presently exists. A lot of people just act from very impulsive a priori assumptions when a bit of sensitive information imputes BLP on a topic, and it often allows original research in via the back door. It's usually proscriptive OR (that is to say, an original research argument in support of keeping content out) rather than inclusive OR, but it's still not a workable standard like the more straightforward applications of WP:WEIGHT/WP:RS that govern most non-BLP content. But for now it's the best we have. Mostly we are able to manage in BLP areas because there's usually a strong consensus for or against inclusion of a particular piece. But it must be noted that more borderline BLP questions become some of the most fertile ground for both dispute and disruption because of BLPs strange, sometimes quixotic application and status. Snow let's rap 06:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Well I thank you for this explanation. I accept it and the BLP policies in general. I would have appreciated a clear explanation like this earlier on, rather than all the antagonism and arrogance that has bee directed my way. Attic Salt (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
I find it extremely unsettling that both Attic Salt and I are under threat of a topic ban and/or other discretionary sanctions. Such drastic actions require detailed and specific evidence because these actions censor our views and contributions to an encyclopedic resource that is meant to be free and open to all editors in good faith. If I am to be subject to a topic ban on BLPs, I demand the specific violation(s) I have made and how each of these violations went against specific policies. I cannot be subject to a topic ban because of the articles that I choose to edit, which range from topics in physics to biology to mathematics to BLPs. If I believe in the tenets of WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME and seek to apply these policies to protect BLPs, I should not be punished for my good faith understanding of Wikipedia's policies even if other editors may disagree. Furthermore, I am unequivocally not NeneCaretaker nor am I IP user 66.190.166.205. Yet somehow I stand accused. I would appreciate a Check User action to verify this. In summary, I am very concerned with how Attic Salt and I are being treated here. It's beyond chilling that we are subject to sanctions based on vague accusations without specific evidence to back them up. It would be extremely troubling for editors who have many years of experience here on Wikipedia to form a clique because of the age of their accounts and to gang up on newer editors like myself. To then apply sanctions or even the threat of sanctions is anathema to the spirit and ethos of an open source encyclopedia. TrueQuantum (talk) 00:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Does you 'good-faith understanding' of WP:BLP now extend to an understanding that when multiple experienced editors state that material you are adding or restoring to an article contravenes the policy, the correct way to proceed, if you disagree with that assessment, is to try to resolve the matter through discussion (including if necessary formal dispute resolution etc) rather than adding or restoring it again? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
I share TrueQuantum’s disgust with how this has unfolded. Attic Salt (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Attic Salt, samequestion for you: does you 'good-faith understanding' of WP:BLP now extend to an understanding that when multiple experienced editors state that material you are adding or restoring to an article contravenes the policy, the correct way to proceed, if you disagree with that assessment, is to try to resolve the matter through discussion (including if necessary formal dispute resolution etc) rather than adding or restoring it again? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Andy,your behaviour here has been horrible. I’m not interested in interacting with a bully. Attic Salt (talk) 00:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm sure those wishing to determine how best to proceed further will take your non-response to a perfectly reasonable question into consideration. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm really concerned that nobody is addressing the bullying behavior from editors AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika. So far they have accused me of being NeneCaretaker and 66.190.166.205 without any evidence nor CU action. They have attacked my character repeatedly as well as my intentions. Furthermore, the administrators involved so far have only been piling on by threatening sanctions against me and Attic Salt while giving a free pass to AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika. I sincerely hope that Wikipedia has not become an insular group of editors and administrators who give favoritism to those they know or those whose accounts are older while discriminating against newer accounts like myself. TrueQuantum (talk) 01:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
At no point have I accused you of being NeneCaretaker or 66.190.166.205. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
@TrueQuantum: I agree that WP:BITE may have been a concern here (@AndyTheGrump: please do try to take it easy). However, the accusations are not vague. They're simply that this edit and this one reinstated what other editors had identified as a BLP violation without waiting for the discussion about this to end. This is not acceptable, and demonstrates that you do not yet sufficiently understand the gravity of BLP violations. Even if there is just a possibility of an edit violating BLP policy, it should be extensively discussed before being reinstated. If you simply acknowledge this and promise to take this into account in the future, I'm fairly sure that no action will be taken. Apaugasma (talk ) 00:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for actually pointing out what the potential violation is and what policy it violates. I did in fact discuss the BLP issues in the talk page for Zina Bash way in advance of reverting Marquardtika's edit. Not only that, but furthermore I pointed out on Marquardtika's talk page that I identified contentious editing and politely asked the editor to refrain. The talk page discussion was as follows: "I saw you put in accusations of sexual assault against Eugene Gu in your edit to Zina Bash's BLP. Upon further investigation I saw that you were aggressively editing Gu's BLP to include accusations of sexual assault that a unanimous RFC forbade. Please refrain from tendentious editing and look up our policies on WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME. Thank you. TrueQuantum (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC) Maybe Eugene should have looked up the BLP policies before he used his public platform to falsely accuse a Mexican Jew of flashing a white power symbol. As for the accusations of sexual assault, it's right there in the reliable source: "Eugene Gu, a prominent anti-Trump doctor who recently made news when he was accused of sexual assault..." Marquardtika (talk) 01:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC) Okay. Seeing as how Gu isn't a Wiki editor, it's strange to say that he should have looked up the BLP policies. Sounds like you have an axe to grind against Gu that makes you ignore RFC consensus and then attack him in Zina Bash's Wikipedia page to get revenge on him using his "public platform" to "falsely accuse a Mexican Jew of flashing a white power symbol." I highly recommend you refresh yourself on the 5 pillars and WP:BLP policies. Please discontinue the tendentious editing that is clearly motivated by feelings of retaliation and desire for retribution. TrueQuantum (talk) 02:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)." I made repeated attempts to reach out and discuss on the talk page before resorting to reverting what I believed to be TE. If I made an error in this case, then it was unintentional and I will take it as a learning point and lesson. I hope that Marquardtika and AndyTheGrump can similarly learn lessons on Wikipedia policies and civil behavior so that we can have a better community here. TrueQuantum (talk) 01:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The crucial difference is that after Marquardtika got reverted on the Eugene Gu article, they did continue to discuss a bit on the talk page, but they did not reinstate the edit without getting consensus to do so. Likewise, after you reverted them at the Zina Bash article, they discussed a bit with you on their talk page but they did not reinstate the edit. I do think it rather questionable that they incorporated the sexual assault allegation against Gu in the Zina Bash article just two days after their inclusion of it in Gu's own article was reverted, though as they write on their talk page, the allegation against Gu is specifically noted in the Vox article we are using on Zina Bash. Anyways, the important thing is that when editors identify BLP violations, they should not be reinstated without a thorough consensus, and they can in some cases even be reverted beyond 3RR. This is not always an obvious point for newish editors to catch on to, but I guess that learning it the hard way is also one form of learning it. :-P Thanks for your attention, Apaugasma (talk ) 02:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
To piggyback on Apaugasma's very useful advice here, I would recommend that you take a look at WP:BRD, if you are not familiar with, or to review it even if you are--and when doing so, consider every note of caution with regard to the principle of discussing before acting to have a particular vitality in the context of BLP. Mind you, when it comes to the tone of the discussion itself, I believe you acted in a civil and measured fashion, and I intend to note that in an !vote below. However, the edit warring here never should have taken place. The burden was upon you and Attic Salt to achieve consensus for these changes once they were reverted, and you skipped that rather principal step. In the future, where things are looking rather intractable, you should consider soliciting additional perspectives through a process such as WP:RfC rather than resorting to attempting to get the content in by brute force of redundant edits: that approach will never work in your favour. Snow let's rap 03:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Fairly strong oppose. The behaviour here is limited to a one-time instance as far as has been presented (absent a trivial WP:NOTAFORUM violation, but in any event both excuseable in a newer user) and frankly (though I would support a different view) their content arguments are not wholecloth without merit. The proposed sanction is way out of proportion with actionable behaviour here (if any), given that at least one of these editors has pretty clearly recognized shortcomings in their approach and assumed the appropriate attitude that their approach to these situations must adjust. Blocks are administered for purely preventative purposes, not punitive statements, even where we might find the content in dispute objectionable in some respect. Putting aside for the moment the question of whether or not Andy's bringing the issue here was appropriate--I assume for argument here that it was--we have already achieved an acceptable approach in that the editors have evidenced no suggestion of a more disruptive pattern (at least that I have seen submitted here), and seem not to object to adjusting their approach to community expectations. So long as we have no reason to expect duplicity, I see no reason not to AGF as to their intent and give them the benefit of the doubt as to their ability to adjust.
There's also the fact that, upon reviewing the discussions in full, I actually think there is reason to feel they handled themselves fairly appropriately and with restraint in those discussions. Andy frankly was showing so much WP:BITE there from word go, I would say it was verging into uncollaborative discussion. This is, if my memory recalls correctly, something that has brought Andy to this board more than once in the past, and has certainly, looking at his block log, something close to behaviour that has earned him blocks in the past, so maybe if there is an editor who does have a pattern worth noting here, it is not the two named in the complaint. Not that I'm arguing for sanction for anybody here. But weighing the behaviours of TrueQuantum and Attic Salt in the light of the dispute and taking into account their responses here, I don't see a good argument for sanction, let alone something as severe as the proposed T/PBAN. If there's any lingering concern, it is that Attic Salt has not been quite as forward in owning up the edit warring as has TrueQuantum. I also advise the parties to RfC this issue if they can't resolve it any other way (unless the standing consensus is already pretty substantial and recently arrived at, in which case the issue should be left alone for a time), though if I am perfectly blunt, I can't imagine TrueQuantum and Attic Salt can prevail on this editorial question in any discussion that pulls in a substantial number of experienced editors. Snow let's rap 05:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Partial blocks. Per all the above, and noting especially the aggressiveness of TrueQuantum in the discussion, I have blocked TrueQuantum and Attic Salt indefinitely from Zina Bash and its related talkpage. I don't mean to close the discussion; other sanctions, such as topic bans or sock puppet investigations, may well still be on the table. Bishonen tålk 08:00, 25 July 2021 (UTC).
I would like to know why and how Bishonen can just unilaterally apply a sanction on me without further discussion with other editors as it seemed the discussion above was about how sanctions are preventative and not meant to be punitive. I very much desire to make positive contributions to Wikipedia and strongly oppose being censored like this. If an uninvolved administrator or editor can help me apply for an appeal I would very much appreciate it. I don't believe in censorship and hope that this community does not believe in silencing users. Furthermore, I find it highly unusual that Bishonen interprets my behavior as aggressive and threatens even more sanctions that are "on the table" while willfully ignoring the rather bullying behavior of AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika. I really hope for there to be a semblance of objectivity and balance here. Is this how administrators treat conflicts between older and newer editors? TrueQuantum (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
How is it that a seven-week old account with under 300 edits is so confident about procedures at Wikipedia? When two established editors started removing what they said were WP:BLP violations at Zina Bash, did you ask anyone for an explanation? At your talk, some kind advice "to be self-reflective" was dismissed diff with "Demanding that I be self-reflective ... is very chilling to me." That is not the way to succeed at Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
TrueQuantum, most sanctions are put in place "unilaterally", by a single admin, at their sole discretion, and that's what I did. A partial block from one article and its talkpage is an extremely narrow sanction, which leaves you free to edit the rest of Wikipedia, so you have hardly been "silenced" by it. Nor am I "threatening" "even more sanctions"; I merely point out that suggestions for other sanctions have been made above, and therefore it's not time to close this section yet. I myself have no opinion on these potential other sanctions. Bishonentålk 11:43, 26 July 2021 (UTC).
I believe this egregiously goes against the spirit of WP:BITE, especially the comment "How is it that a seven-week old account with under 300 edits is so confident about procedures at Wikipedia?" Moreover, when Marquardtika accused me of being a "sockpuppet" or "meatpuppet" in violation of the policy "Do not call newcomers disparaging names such as "sockpuppet" or "meatpuppet" rather than admonishing the editor or recognizing the violation of WP:BITE I was piled on by other administrators including Bishonen who calls it an ongoing investigation. Why is it that established editors can violate Wikipedia policies with impunity while newer editors like myself are treated with hostility and even sanctions? I am currently researching how to perform a proper appeal with a complete understanding of all the policies that I believe were violated. It will take some time for me to do this, but you all will hear from me soon once I am prepared and can launch a strong defense and bring to light what has occurred here to me and Attic Salt, who has sadly decided to leave Wikipedia because of all of this. TrueQuantum (talk) 14:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Vandalism on Baikal seal

I didn't want to take this to AIV because it a. might not be urgent vandalism and b. this was not past multiple warnings.

Lately, there's been a few users vandalizing on Baikal seal by adding an image of a Baikal seal who has become a meme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baikal_seal&oldid=1035669788 vandalism by User:Wormsbee

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baikal_seal&oldid=1034658584 vandalism by User:CementEater99

I suspect socks or vandalism-only accounts. The meme picture is a picture of this exact kind of seal, but I don't think the image is free use, so I think it violates policy. (I got someone on Commons to speedy tag the images for copyvio) wizzito say hello! 02:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I’ve applied semi-protection for a week; let’s see if that brings it under control. Ping me if it proves insufficient, and consider reporting issues like this to WP:RFPP in the future. Red Phoenix talk 18:32, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Wallywally23

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user (its name was mentioned on the title of the section) making "talk-in" edits on the page YK Osiris; then proceeds to make personal attacks against me on its talk page.----Rdp060707 talk 09:26, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

According to User:PrincessPersnickety (on my talk page), this user also has a WP:NOTHERE behavior.----Rdp060707 talk 10:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AmorLucis

User:AmorLucis has been fighting their corner over what may well be OR at Juneteenth (and elsewhere) for over week now. The problem is they are using this kind of language [[607]] [[608]] despite repeated warnings (and one block). It is becoming a time sink, and despite a willingness (they claim [[609]]) to drop it the tone of that is an attack on users and on the project (and I would argue with language like "gaslit" an attempt to morally blackmail us into giving them what they want.

I was not going to report this but the first diff, made after the claim they would drop this, shows I do not think they will stop fighting their corner. In fact, they are an wp:spa that does not seem to be here for any other reason than to promote these views on the topic.Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I blocked AmorLucis on July 14 after they responded to Slatersteven with this [610], following admonishments from me about treating other editors as opponents [611] [612]. They did modify their behavior somewhat, for which I thanked them, receiving this [613] response. I blocked shortly after, when they went after Slatersteven. Once the block expired, they adjusted their approach somewhat, but the walls of words persist, and they are still characterizing disagreement as "gaslighting." Rejection of other editors' advice has been rationalized as "setting boundaries," ignoring the project's own boundaries. I offer no comment on the content dispute,apart from the observation that it appears to involve an obscure synthesis tangential to Juneteenth. Acroterion (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
AmorLucis is here for one purpose, to correct the injustice of how the literature about Juneteenth does not adequately address women's issues. But Wikipedia exists to summarize the literature. It does not exist to replace the written record with new concepts. So AmorLucis is not going to find satisfaction on Wikipedia unless they decide to drop the stick. They need to adjust to Wikipedia's policies rather than trying to force a new policy. AmorLucis must start listening to and accepting sensible advice from veteran editors. Binksternet (talk) 13:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I've pointed out to this editor in that NPOV that despite their claims that they are being personally attacked (of which they appear to be turning around to make this accusational), none of the editors in the NPOV nor the Juneteenth talk page have made personal attacks against them; its all been arguments against the logic for inclusion of their material, commenting on the contributions. I've replied just now to their last post at NPOV to review NPA and that no one is attacking them as an editor, so their treatment of the dismissal of their reasoning for inclusion as a personal afront isn't helpful to consensus discussion. --Masem (t) 13:40, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
For information, non-admin comment: There was also some discussion about this in the Teahouse, a couple of paragraphs down here [614]. I had what I felt was quite a useful exchange with AmorLucis on my talk page (a bit of a wall-of-words)[615]. My impression was that AmorLucis is a good person, but trying to right a wrong in the wrong place; I suggested they find a more appropriate forum and accept that WP isn't here to have a moral viewpoint (in fact since we are reliant on secondary sources, we're likely to be last on the scene when moral viewpoints change). I am concerned that some of the language (gaslighting, malewashing) may almost be buzzwords that have become the natural vocabulary of this sort of fight, but which we (unsurprisingly) perceive as aggressive. In fairness to AmorLucis, I don't think they see the language as anything more than telling it how it is. But any male editor is going to feel bruised when accused of malewashing. This is not going to go away; AmorLucis is not going to change their point of view, or how strongly they feel about it, so unless they can be encouraged to find a better outlet, Juneteenth is going to remain a conflict zone. Elemimele (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm a male editor who couldn't care less about the "malewashing" comments because I see it as just a simple statement of fact: the contributions and experiences of women are excluded from countless histories and venues, and calling this "malewashing" seems an appropriate neologism.
Even if I didn't immediately understand what the term referred to, I can't find anything objectionable about it.
I've also been trying to help Amor at my talk page and at their sandbox, and I have to say a few things:
  1. There is a large disconnect between what editors here believe Amor is trying to accomplish versus what they actually seem to be trying to accomplish. Their goal is to add material about the experiences of Black women, specifically at Juneteenth. Their long-term goal seems to be to get some representation of the discussions around Black women within intersectional feminism better represented in this project, which is a laudable goal. However, their overuse of social-justice jargon and their sheer (overwhelming, almost) verbosity are obfuscating that, giving the impression of a POV pusher here to "fix" what WP says about those subjects.
  2. The complaints here about the difficulty of dealing with them are not without merit. Amor is sensitive and prickly about things, and seems more interested in venting about their past experiences here than in building content worth inclusion. I've tried to keep them focused, but my own patience is not infinite. I waffled between supporting or opposing a block per WP:DISRUPT, but decided it would be better for me to lay out my thoughts more fully.
  3. The discussions I've seen at Talk:Juneteenth and at WP:NPOVN and here have been quite bitey, though not to a sanctionable degree. AmorLucis' frustrations are understandable from their perspective. Their reception to editing here was essentially a stone wall, and some of the objections to their edits are downright nonsensical.
  4. AmorLucis might grow into a valuable contributor on subjects of interest to intersectional feminism, if they can learn to communicate better, and grasp our sourcing and compositional standards. That's my goal in helping them.
  5. Amor will categorically not ever become a valuable editor if I'm the only one willing to help at their sandbox. If a couple of editors could dig up some sourcing (there's some at my talk to get started), and review and summarize it to add to the work at Amor's sandbox, and engage with Amor with some patience to explain what we're doing and why, that would probably be the best outcome of this thread. If that is not the case, and Amor doesn't take notice of what's being said here, then I'm afraid a block might be in order, just to put an end to the back and forth. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I did try to help AmorLucis in a general way, but I didn't try to help incorporate intersectionalism into the Juneteenth article because I don't happen to believe it's a correct use of intersectionalism. In fairness to AmorLucis, I got a polite and appropriate response when I said this on my talk-page. MPants is right that communication is key. It is difficult to communicate about intersectionalism; it suffers from all the difficulties of discussing discrimination, and it's new and sometimes ill-defined. If I disagree that intersection is relevant in a particular situation, the intersectionalist will reply "that's because you're still living in a pre-intersectionalism era and don't recognise your own prejudices" and once I've been told that I'm getting it wrong because of an unconscious bias, I have no way to reply - how can I argue that I'm not guilty of not knowing something that by definition I don't know I have/lack? The big question is this: is AmorLucis' editing at Juneteenth actually preventing other editors from maintaining the balance of the article, and is it wasting prodigious amounts of other people's time? We can't expect all editors to be neutral; sometimes neutrality is achieved by different editors with conflicting points of view agreeing on an article that holds the middle ground. If AmorLucis can accept this, I don't see a problem. But I've been staying clear of Juneteenth recently as it's not really my subject. Elemimele (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


Thank you for the opportunity to publicly air both sides of this controversial issue. First, I had already explicitly publicly disengaged from all public forums on this discussion before this incident report was filed.
My good faith edit to include the history of Black women in a Juneteenth article was initially labeled as "racist" and "callous," which is not an attack on the content of the edit, but on the motive behind the edit, which is clearly a personal attack. I was also told by an editor that I, personally, was trying to "Right a Great Wrong." Which is clearly a comment on my personal motives and not on my edit. My good faith efforts for other pairs of eyes on the edit was labeled as forum hopping to "get the answer I wanted," which is also a clear attack on my motives. When I set a boundary against that personal attack, I was block for 31 hours for being "disruptive."
More troubling, when I pointed out these personal attacks, the response was DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender). I was told that they were not personal attacks and that I was the abusive person and being "uncivil" for setting boundaries for myself about these personal comments. The editor who blocked me also misrepresented me repeatedly by claiming that I pushed back against being informed about Wikipedia policies (framing me as uncooperative) which is not what I specifically, in writing, set a boundary about with that editor.
The issue of whether or not including the unique history of Black women in Black history adds bias (as the editors here claim) or removes bias (creating neutrality, as I claim) is an evolving debate in our culture's current zeitgeist. Yet, here, my view is being repeatedly characterized as having a "moral" or "political" agenda, which are yet more comments on my motive and not my argument. On the contrary, my goal has always been to make the article neutral, improving Wikipedia's integrity. Other editors characterized that neutrality as "too female-centric" and "too much feminism."
As is, the Juneteenth article explicitly states the legal status of Black men (using the term "Freedmen" three times) as though it were the legal status of all Black people at the time, which it was not. Black women were under the common law status of "coverture," which reputable sources term as "more akin to slavery than to citizenship." [1] (the quote is 28 minutes, 21 seconds into the cited video, which I recommend watching to learn more about "coverture").
I honestly did not realize that Wikipedia would hear the term "malewashing" as aggressive--that surprised me. It's like a white person hearing the word "whitewashing" as aggressive--a word that is regularly used in reputable sources as a colloquialism for when history has an inherent bias of assuming that white history is the history of all people. Once I was told that "malewashing" is heard as "aggressive" in this community, I ceased using the term. AmorLucis (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
can you please provide a link to when your edits were referred to as "racist" and "callous,"?Slatersteven (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Only because I went looking for what might have been personal attacks against AmorLucis, I believe this is based on this linked section on Talk:Juneteenth here [616], which, at least to me, all seem to be assertions related to the contributions and not the contributor. --Masem (t) 14:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Hard to see from that who they might be accusing, so I will be inform all involved.Slatersteven (talk) 14:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
And note that both [[617]] and [[618]] are an of odd thing to do as neither user was named in the ANI, nor their edits mentioned. You might need to read wp:canvassingSlatersteven (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


Sources
What is this?Slatersteven (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


Case in point...the responses of Slatersteven illustrate the type of DARVO communication that has been repeatedly directed at me. Specifically, they are framing my tagging two editors as "odd" and instructed me to read about "canvassing" when both editors I tagged had previously expressed an interest in this topic and the debate around this edit which falls under "appropriate notification" according to Wiki standards. They also posted "What is this?" after I moved my cited source to be placed within the content of this incident report for clarity, rather than at the end of the entire page.
I am choosing not to engage further with this type of communication, which I believe demonstrates bad faith. Let the chips fall where they may based on what I've already said. I'm letting it go. AmorLucis (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Slatersteven, accusing someone of canvassing because they notified people who were previously involved in the situation is about on par with accusing me of bigotry over making the world's least offensive joke, with respect to basic competence.
By the way, it took me less than 2 minutes to find this comparison of AmorLucis' arguments to arguments made by racists and and this accusation of being "callous". ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 19:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Only if they invited all users, did they?Slatersteven (talk) 19:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Hence why I asked them to read it, to give them a chance to rectify it.Slatersteven (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Considering that most of the editors involved at NPOVN were already commenting in this thread, I'm still not seeing a problem, or even a reasonable facsimile of one. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 20:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Has the person whoes comments you linked too (and therefore directly metioned by you, and referred to by them, which means they should have told the user, as they made them party to this ANI)? This is the kind of thing a mentor should be telling them.Slatersteven (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Well then, maybe I should follow your example, and instead of trying to help new editors, I should just bitch and whine because they're not already familiar with our norms. And, apparently, I should make a point to not understand the difference between an editor whom they've pointedly stopped engaging with weeks ago and an editor who's been working with them as recently as yesterday. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 20:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
What? please, just stop now. I have asked them to read policy, more than once. This will be my last reply to you here I have no idea what your issue is and frankly do not care. If you want to help this user fine, but do not try to make it seem like they are the victim of my bad faith (this is not about me, if it is ask for a boomerang, but stop with the deflection).Slatersteven (talk) 20:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Stop what? Pointing out that your own behavior has been substantially subpar throughout this? Sorry, that's a feature of ANI. If you don't like it, maybe you should stay away from this page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 21:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" But seriously, I would humbly suggest disengagement as I see nothing productive coming from this. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I'd really like to a few editors to actually come help Amor compose some material worth inclusion. I understand that they're difficult to work with, but frankly, Slater is even more difficult to work with, and Amor at least hasn't been here so long that there's no hope of them changing. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:29, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I have now informed the user accused of PA's in this ANI as the accusers seemed unwilling to.Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

you might need to readwp:canvassing. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 13:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
At the top of this page "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on the editor's talk page.", it is required to inform users (which you should have done, when you quoted them) who are mentioned at ANI they have been mentioned, it's a rule. So stop acting like a 4 year old and grow up.Slatersteven (talk) 13:25, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Funny, I see your signature after the OP post, not mine. In fact, I don't see where I've accused anyone of anything sanctionable, though I've quite clearly hinted that your behavior is seriously lacking.
You asked for diffs, I provided diffs. That's not an accusation. That's not starting a discussion about someone. No matter how much of a tantrum you want to throw over it, providing diffs in response to a request for them is called "being helpful" not "making accusations."
You know what does constitute making accusations? Demanding evidence of something that you're easily capable of finding yourself when you've got good reasons to suspect the person you're demanding it from doesn't even know how to find it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
(I received a notice) I withdrew several weeks ago, my last comment similar to my first comment, 'we need the direct sources', otherwise there are all kinds of problems that can arise, particularly with respect to content policies, but as maybe others later concluded we need the sources, or there was a behavioral dimension. To the extent that AmorLucis is "difficult to work with", it seemed to lie in part in what appears to be in contributing with what they accuse others of -- besides which, it seems asking the impossible, to find a middle path, with the 'sources not needed' position they argued, at the time. At any rate, as perhaps comes as no surprise, I agree with Masem, here and at NPOVN, that my comments of several weeks ago were directed to contributions, not PAs; the only thing I could add to Masem's analysis is my comments were intended to be directed at the contributions, not the person. I remain open to seeing the directly connecting sources that no one has seemed to be able to find (at that time, it was connecting coverture to Juneteenth).
Unconnected to Juneteenth, Angela Davis wrote about the struggle of several black women after the war -- and even the struggle of the man she calls the greatest male, women's rights advocate of the nineteenth century: their focus, she says was on race oppression; the focus of their struggle was not on discussing, celebrating, nor disputing, Juneteenth, nor June 19th (otherwise she would have said that), it was in a life and death struggle against racism, inside and outside the women's movement.[619] Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Googling malewashing gets me:
    • [620] Oatey, 37357 Moda Fire-Rated 2-Valve Copper Male Washing Machine
    • [621] Men wash their hands much less often than women
    • [622] Front view of young male washing clothes
    • [623] Spanish students call for end to male washing machine ban
Which one are we talking about? (That last item certainly bears further investigation: Students at a university residence in Madrid are demanding an end to a long-standing ban on male students using the residence's washing machines. Despite repeated calls for more than three years for a change in the rules, the code of conduct at the Duque de Ahumada de la Guardia Civil residence continues to specify that "use of the washing machines by male residents will result in expulsion, ranging from 15 days to three months, from the residence". Male students at the dorm, which caters for the children and grandchildren of Guardia Civil officers, are instead instructed to quietly pass their clothes to female friends to be washed.") EEng 15:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
(non-admin comment) The third of those items may also. Narky Blert (talk) 16:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
My wife is the only woman in our home, and she's instituted a similar rule after I accidentally shrank one of her shirts and my 12yo son decided that about a half-gallon of liquid laundry detergent would be the correct amount to wash his karategi last year. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 15:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
You can't get out of it that easily at my house. The hubs does 99% of the laundry. Only the stuff I both value highly and can't easily/cheaply replace gets me into the laundry room. —valereee (talk) 15:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
My wife took that stance, right up until I shrunk her shirt. I swear, it was an accident. Truthfully, I still do laundry, I just do it when she's not around. Life's easier that way.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 16:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Stephen Potter, Lifemanship theorist, recommended that on your first day as a houseguest, you should offer to help with the washing-up, and break something valuable but not irreplaceable. Your hosts will thereafter decline all your offers of assistance, and you can relax. Narky Blert (talk) 17:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Giano insists on trolling

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Giano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

So, four years ago I made an entirely routine WP:ORGNAME block. The user selected a new username and I unblocked them myself. Fast forward to yesterday when Giano, for some reason, felt compelled to troll me over it [624]. I think we can all agree that was trolling, commenting out-of-the-blue on an uncontroversial block from over four years ago and pinging the blocking admin to see the sarcastic comments made. So I reverted it as trolling, Giano has chosen to revert again. Somebody please deal with this as you see fit, I probably won't comment on it again as Giano doesn't merit that much of my time. He doesn't like me and thinks I suck as an admin. That's fine, this isn't a popularity contest and I already am well aware of his opinion and don't need to be trolled over it. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Giano obviously can't see the deleted content of their old userpage, which made it abundantly clear that there were multiple people using the account (so "curator" should be plural, not possessive). But apart from that, his comment is spot on. You did a fine job, applying policy correctly and explaining yourself clearly, and you are obviously an asset to the project. – bradv🍁 04:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
This thread is arb-heavy yo! Honestly, I'm a longtime Giano fan, but even I can't make sense of this one. It's such a routine block/unblock, I've done like a million of these myself (I consider myself to be an asshat to the project, btw!). El_C 04:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Not surprised. Don't approve. I don't expect anything to happen. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 04:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Giano does something silly but mostly harmless. People overreact. Nothing will happen. Must be Wednesday. --Jayron32 17:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I think it's unfortunate that the response is always "well everyone knows he's a troll, what else is new?" Beeblebrox (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I think it's unfortunate that our first response to being trolled is to do anything except nothing at all. So I guess we're all going to be unsatisfied today. --Jayron32 17:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
What should our second, third, fourth, fifth, etc., responses to trolling be? You're not suggesting this is the first time, of course? What do we do when an editor repeatedly trolls another editor? Ignore it? Hmm... I for one would support a one-way IBAN if Beebs wants one. Levivich 17:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
It doesn't hurt my feelings or anything that he doesn't care for me, the feeling is mutual for sure, my concern is more that he may harass someone who actually does care what he has to say. However, it is clear that the broader community is willing to turn a blind eye to over a decade of outright trolling, so I've used the "mute this user" function so he cannot ping or email me anymore. I don't like to do that, being an admin I prefer to be open to communication about my actions, but Giano doesn't communicate with me, just spews petty insults, so no big loss. Normally we ban trolls but I guess this one gets a free pass simply because he's been here so long. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Levivich, if the frequency of these is not insignificant, then maybe. But otherwise, I've experienced plenty of annoying acerbic comments from established users that are also weirdly non sequitur, but myself, I don't usually bring it to ANI. I just point out the absurdity of it to the user in question and move on. I mean, does it really matter if the annoying comment stands, in the talk page of a user whose last edit was in 2017? Who even sees it, except for the pinged admin being provoked. But to each their own, I guess. Giano looks silly (perhaps even a bit mean-spirited) for their out-the-blue: Hey, Beebs, you (still) suck! As does Beebs for their: Hey everyone, I was told I suck, but actually I don't. Meh. --Asshat out! El_C 18:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Beeblebrox, obviously, there's a difference between trolling (occasionally) and being a troll outright (unrelentingly). El_C 18:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Giano is a textbook WP:UNBLOCKABLE so of course it won't happen, but like Levivich I would also support a 1-way IBAN. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
@El C: I think the frequency of these is not insignificant, having filed the last ANI thread about this, and I was right that this would continue, as it has. It will continue until we stop giving him a free pass. Levivich 21:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Okay, this is a weird conversation threading/positioning. Anyway, again, I dunno. Maybe...? But, somehow, I just don't think the RexxS blowout is on-par with this dumbity, which is much more asshat-innocuous. This is the thing with Beeblebrox: they are one of the most influential Wikipedians around, being both an ArbCom member and a WPO powerhouse, so he should expect some extra-scrutiny, even if unfair (obviously, that doesn't feel great to him, but it is what it is). To sum up: I'm still undecided as to what if anything should be done here (i.e. I'm helping!). El_C 21:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I think our policy of asking people to declare COI, but to prohibit doing so in their username is pretty stupid. Similarly, shared organisational accounts are allowed on many other Wikimedia projects (the German Wikipedia has a dedicated process for this) but here we ask people to use an additional private account instead of the shared SUL one. Our policy of blocking people over this before even explaining the issue to the user is also very unfriendly. We managed to make the editor in question leave four years ago, after Beeblebrox correctly applied our policies. (Is this what this thread is about?) —Kusma (talk) 18:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
(It is not.) El_C 18:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I've had experienced users say far worse things to me, and just brushed it off. This is barely "trolling" at all. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Kusma we do not prohibit people from declaring their COI in their username - you could change your username today to User:Kusma@whereveryouwork if you like, or User:Whereveryouworkkusma, or even User:Whereveryouwork_K. You just can't be User:Whereveryouwork. I would not support a change to the policy that prohibits shared accounts - I don't relish the prospect of trying to communicate/collaborate with someone who turns out to be a bunch of different people. Account creation is free - there is no reason why multiple people at the same organisation can't create multiple accounts to edit from.
I don't agree with Tryptofish that this was barely trolling at all. Worse things happen at sea and all that, but it was a barbed comment on a talk page that had been untouched for years, and it served no purpose at all other than to needle someone for a decision they made (which is a really bad way of convincing them that they might have done it differently). Pointless, uncollaborative and, frankly, textbook trolling. If Giano is the sort of person that I hope he is, he'll recognise that he was wrong, and apologise. Girth Summit (blether) 21:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I certainly appreciate how this is something where reasonable people can disagree, and I think that your view is indeed entirely reasonable. But I don't think that the purpose was really to change Beeblebrox's mind, and there's a difference, however subtle, between barbed criticism and trolling. I get the feeling that this was not an isolated occurrence, and I would be more inclined to call it trolling – and worthy of intervention – if it were a case of Giano following Beeblebrox around and pestering him at every step. But we are asked here to respond to just one diff. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Tryptofish, well, two diffs actually - the original comment, and then the reverting Beeblebrox's removal of it. And then there's this response, which I've just noticed, and seems to indicate that he thinks there's nothing wrong with what he did. Girth Summit (blether) 23:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
@Girth Summit, I, on the other hand, would rather communicate with the press office of SomeCompany than with NamedIntern1, NamedIntern2, NamedIntern3 and NamedIntern4, all of whose COIs I have to establish individually. It seems so much easier to deal with them if they share an account. About half of de:Kategorie:Benutzer:Verifiziert are accounts that we'd block as "implying (potential) shared use" (and many of them have been blocked). Note also that we don't just block accounts because they are in fact shared, we block them (without warning) if it looks as if they might possibly become shared. I find it very difficult to see how Wikipedia is improved by blocking museums like User:Museum für Kommunikation, Bern on this wiki. Such accounts are legal on Commons and dewiki and (I think) actually on most wikis. A museum that donates content to the Commons has to tell the people they hired to do Wikipedia-related work to use the museum account for the Commons and for all languages except English, where they should use individual accounts instead. It's just insane that we have SUL but completely incompatible username and account use policies. —Kusma (talk) 22:25, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Kusma, we'll have to agree to differ on the one versus many question - I want to know that I'm talking to an individual so that I can keep track of a discussion. I think we're getting off topic though - whatever any of us feel about policy or its application, pointless snark is never helpful. Girth Summit (blether) 22:40, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Tryptofish's comments above. I would add that the words in the title of this thread appear inflammatory; do you like trout, Beeblebrox? Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close comment. The closer's statement about "everyone seems to agree" is counter-factual, although that does not in any way change the outcome. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:COI account apparently used by multiple editors

Betinfo (talk · contribs) has had one purpose in twelve years, creating and editing what appears to be an autobiography, Peter Betan. Recent discussions have proved really odd on the matter of multiple users [625]; [626]; [627]; [628]; [629]. At various times the user has claimed to be Mr. Betan, at others says the article is not an autobiography, and is consistently referring to the account as used by "we." Probably this all goes away once the article is deleted, but for numerous reasons, the account is being used in a manner contrary to our guidelines. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Was actually about to create a thread about Betinfo; he's working on bludgeoning the discussion at WP:Articles for deletion/Peter Betan with wall-o'-text arguments that verge on boilerplate, and has been doing so for the past 48 hours (he's done it to the last four Delete arguments). I'm getting tired of writing out what amounts to the same counterargument and just adding more words to it each time and there's not much indication he'll stop; can we get him partial-blocked from the AfD until it runs its course? —A little blue Bori v^_^v Jéské Couriano 13:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Judging from their talk page history they also can't keep from uploading the same copyrighted image repeatedly.Citing (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't see why the user hasn't at least been topic blocked [630]. Until then, the bludgeoning continues, in a spiral that grows more frustrated. There's a reason we have WP:COI guidelines, and this is exhibit A. 2601:188:180:B8E0:BD4A:4B03:FD4C:CE7 (talk) 19:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I was close to a stronger sanction when I warned them for NPA, Jéské Couriano, but then I realized I'd voted in the AfD. That discussion would benefit from some winter precipitation, which would have a side effect of ending the disruption. Star Mississippi 01:52, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked indef. Per WP:NOTHERE, personal attacks, seemingly shared account, badgering, self-promotion, repeated copyright concerns. Take your pick. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 02:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

User: Johnpacklambert emptying categories prematurely; edit warring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Johnpacklambert has nominated dozens of categories for deletion and merge. Before the nominations are closed, has started emptying some of them without any notice. When challenged, he refused to honour WP:BRD.

There is no reason to remove these articles from the nominated categories during the merge discussion. If the proposal is accepted, then they would be removed as a matter of course. But if it is rejected, then these categories have been wrongfully removed. In my opinion he is doing so to stack the merge proposal by making it look like these categories are empty and unneeded. Perhaps he is also so sure that his rationale about the definition of “establishment” is the only possible correct view that he doesn’t need to wait for consensus to proceed.

In several of his nominations I have provided alternative valid rationales for inclusion of places in “establishment by country” categories, and on his talk page (User talk:Johnpacklambert#Historical categories by period) suggested that a central discussion is needed to establish a guideline for these scores or hundreds of changes, but he has refused to accept my arguments, and refused to start a broader discussion on the category framework.

As remedy, I suggest he revert all of his category changes under all of his nominations, including ones I may not have found, and make a note of this in each relevant discussion. The category discussions should remain open for a reasonable period afterwards. Perhaps discussion participants should be notified. —Michael Z. 23:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The relevant categories fall under discretionary sanctions per WP:AC/DS (Eastern Europe), and the user has been alerted.[643]Michael Z. 23:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I was reading the discussion as it developed. From what I could tell Mzajsc and few othwr people repeatedly copy and pasted the same (or extremely similar) bad faithed acusations that the whole thing was (is) due to imperalism/colonialism, instead of engaging the counter points other people (not just JPL) were making. So I highly doubt any resonable admin would close the duscussions in Mzajac's direction.
Also, at one point JPL said someone (not him) had emptied out one of the catogries. So there should really be more of an investigation into who actually did what before the finger pointing/reverting takes place. Especially if he was just "following the crowd." Not that I think something being removed from a category matters that much during a discussion though. Who ever did it. Just like AfDs don't suddenly become invalid or are people normally chastized (let alone reported to ANI) if someone edits an article during one. Adamant1 (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Adamant1: without comment on the detail of this case, I'd note that this seems more akin to someone blanking an article undergoing AfD, that would probably be viewed as rather more problematic. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Whatever the case, going by what Liz said it sounds like there is precedent to remove links from categories that are going through a CfD. There's zero precedent to blank pages that are going through AfD. That doesn't mean I personally agree that the links should be removed, but I don't think it's worth sanctioning JPL over since it's already going on either. There should really be a broader discussion about it at WT:CFD instead. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Is it reasonable to ask JPL to undo his revert-revert? Or am I just wasting everyone’s time at ANI when I could just push him to 3RR? Asking sincerely, since I tried to follow the advice at WP:WAR by coming here. —Michael Z. 02:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
@Adamant1: That is false. Please back up your accusation with evidence, if you expect anyone to take it as in good faith. —Michael Z. 16:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's a massive hassle to provide diffs when phone editing. Especially when they would be in the double digits. That said, the first thing I saw when I opened the link at the top of this complaint was Place Clichy saying "Oppose per Mzajac. In the age of imperialism, which is also the golden age of nationalism...Etc..Etc.." Which they copied and pasted like 9 times, without ever responding to anything JPL was saying. You also opposed the whole thing because "It is eliminating national and social history in favour of colonialism." Plus "it represents an extremely dated colonial WP:POV and WP:BIAS against the national histories of nations." So claims of imperialism, nationalism, and colonialism were being tossed around a lot and at the expensive of actually engaging in the discussion. Especially with Place Clichy. That was just from a quick glance to. I'm sure there's more, but that's all I feel like contributing. BTW, I wasn't saying that it's a problem that or Place Clichy brought those things up, just that doing so was/is extremely unlikely to result in the categories being kept. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I did not make bad-faith accusations. So someone else copy-pasted their own comment? I did not do that either (although it doesn’t seem unreasonable when several independent CFDs come off a production line making the same argument). Yes, there are historical (historiographical) views that are represented in current reliable sources, and others that come from the nineteenth century and Wikipedia should absolutely not uphold. —Michael Z. 02:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
I copied and pasted your comments. They are bad faithed IMO because a CfD isn't the place to litigate wider historical (historiographical) views. Just like an AfD related to an ethnic minority isn't the place to discuss race relations in America. It's never productive. Also, since JPL was the one that initiated them, by claiming they have anything to do with imperalism/colonialism your associating him with those things. Even if you didn't directly say he was being imperialist. I'm not saying you know that or were intentionally trying to to derail the CfD discussion, just that it wasn't fair to JPL or other people to make the discussion about that. Especially at the cost of discussing the CfDs more directly. That's just my opinion though. It's more feedback on how to be more effective next time then anything else. Which your free to take or leave. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
It’s my point that CFD is the wrong place. But JPL brought it to CFD when he decided to restructure dozens of categories to conform to his view, a change from the existing consensus that had interpreted categories “by country” broadly and variously. JPL declined to start the necessary conversation beforehand, and refused to consider it when I and others pointed out its necessity. He further committed to it by editing affected articles before his CFDs were concluded, and in fact after it was becoming clear that his view is not the consensus (you can read him complaining about opposition on his talk page). The result is likely to be a large random selection of categories changed out of thousands, and the issue no closer to a consensus or even a discussion. —Michael Z. 13:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Your really not making any sense. If CfD was the wrong place to discuss colonialism/imperialism then why did you discuss them there? Also, your saying he should have started the necessary conversations when he literally took the categories to "Categories for Discussion." That's what it's there for. To discuss categories. Finally, how did JPL edit the categories after it was clear that "his view" was not consensus when the CfDs aren't concluded yet and even your saying there is no consensus? I just don't get it. --Adamant1 (talk) 14:35, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
You are mistaken if you thought I was saying it was okay to empty categories in the middle of a deletion discussion. I was just saying that I'm seeing it happen repeatedly and from CFD regulars. But I complain about it at WP:CFD all of the time. It is irritating because editors spend their time considering the merits of the deletion proposal and emptying out the categories prematurely is a waste of their time. It bypasses the consensus building process. It's one thing if a category has only one page in it or if the category doesn't fit into the existing category structure & is a mistaken creation but to do it on a regular and widespread basis is disruptive. LizRead! Talk! 02:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry if I miss-read or miss-represented your opinion. To me something is OK to do, as far as not being worth sanctioning any person over, if it's being done by a bunch of people already. Especially if there's no guideline against it. I don't think that means it "should" ultimately be done though and looking over your comment a second time (not on a cell phone) I can see that you weren't saying it was OK to do either. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I have no comments about the Johnpacklambert's edits but as someone who regularly deals with empty categories, it's becoming more common for categories to be emptied prior to a CFD decision. I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing at a trend for categories to be emptied prior to a decision of whether to delete, merge or rename categories. It can sometimes be a challenge to determine who is emptying them. It might be a good discussion to happen at WT:CFD. Liz Read! Talk! 04:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • None of these entries fit in the category in question. Odessa was part of the area of the Ottoman Empire that as a unit was much further south. It was no more part of any logical Ukraine than anything in Bessarabia. In the case of the places in Austria-Hungary they cannot be placed in a category under the Russian Empire. In the first two cases there is not enough evidence to place them in a specific year. If something clearly does not belong in a category, it can be removed, even if it is the only entry. I even explained in depth about the first two having no evidence that was the year of their founding. There is no coherent way to say any of these things happened in Ukraine in those specific years.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • The first example, the university in Lviv, was founded in what was then Lemberg. Which was in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Ukraine category for that year is a sub category of the Russian Empire category, so we cannot place in it things that clearly happened outside the Russian Empire.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Actually that was in 1852, so it was in the Austrian Empire. There is no reason to allow categorization to be preserved in a case where it is so clearly wrong. Only a few years before the Polish nationalists in that area had insisted the very idea that there were Ukrainians was a ploy by the Austrian government to kill the asperations of Polish nationalists. National identities are very contested in the 19th century, but in Europe international boundaries at any given time are clear.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
      Johnpacklambert, please respect WP:BRD and discuss the specific category changes at the relevant articles’ talk pages, or better yet, wait for your CFD results before making changes. I filed this ANI because you refused to do that, there, and not to re-litigate the subject-specific questions here. —Michael Z. 16:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
There's nothing in WP:BRD that dictates discussions have to occur on the articles talk pages when there's a dispute, otherwise there couldn't be RfCs or ANI complaints, and JPL was discussing the changes on the relevant CfD talk pages. Which is more then adequate. Or it would have needlessly created duplicate discussions with the same exact people and points being made. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Johnpacklambert should stop emptying categories he nominated (or plans to nominate) for deletion, as that influences and pre-empts the discussion badly. In many cases, his nominations for "obviously wrong" categories failed to get consensus, as there is serious disagreement about the best way to categorize such establishment by country / region / whatever entries (for JPL and some others, only one view is possible, the "historical" one, and the "current" point of view, that something in "current" country X was established in year Y, is unacceptable and should be eradicated by all means possible: the idea that a lot of readers might be more interested in what was established in what was established Ukraine throughout the ages, year by year, even at times when the country didn't exist, seems to be totally alien or unacceptable to them, as it is "wrong" from their point of view and no other point of view is acceptable). If they are not willing to stop this, I guess another editing restriction is in order. Fram (talk) 16:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't remember the exact details and I don't feel like bludgeoning, but there was an AfD recently for what was essentially a personal essay written by someone who thought Afghanistan (which was formed in like 1949) should somehow be credited for something done 2,000 years ago by Sumerians, just because it took place in what is now modern day Afghanistan. Not surprisingly the article wasn't kept. If allowed, such articles are a huge slippery slope that can lead to a lot of nationalist type edit warring, arguing, and nonsensical duplication of historical subjects.
Whatever our personals beliefs about the issue are, it wouldn't be a maintainable, fair way of doing things. Especially when people start wanting to go the other way with it, where Sumerians are supposedly responsible for things currently taking place in Afghanistan because time/ownership are just imperialist/colonialist Western scientific notions and other views are possible, or whatever. At that point the big bang/god/Neanderthals should be mentioned in every article. There's zero precedence for it either. Let alone is it worth restricting JBL's editing abilities due to him keeping the slope from being slid down. Adamant1 (talk) 21:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
...which is hardly comparable to the current issue, i.e. that e.g. the Odessa University, a currently existing, major university in a major city in Ukraine, is removed from the "what things in Ukraine were established in what year" category tree[644] because it wasn't Ukraine in that year, and may only be included in the Category:1865 establishments in the Russian Empire. Now, Johnpacklambert may argue that at CfD (though he could do with turning down the hyperbole about how terrible and stuoid it is to have the "current country" cats as well), but emptying the category at the same time is not allowed. That's the behaviour problem for which a restriction may be needed, the other issue is the way he treats the content issue as if his PoV is the only possibly correct one and the opposite position, which would allow for both categories (one historical, one from the current situation) is an abomination. A tree of what is or would be currently located in country (or US state or whatever), by year of (dis)establishment, is of interest to readers, and informs clearly and succinctly about things that shaped the current country, even if the country didn't exist at all at the time of establishment. The dogmatism that only one tree is valid and the other needs to be erased is highly tiring. Fram (talk) 07:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
First of all, I fail to see how it's JPLs PoV when he wasn't the only one in the CfDs with that view point. From what I can tell it also lines up with how historical subjects are handled in Wikipedia more broadly. Maybe the Ukraine/Russian Empire thing is (or should be) an exception. I really don't know. Anyway, with your tree thing sure it would be of interest to readers, but what readers find interesting shouldn't come at the cost of accuracy. You can't really have a "current situation" category for things that are in the past. Category:Trees of the United States (dis)establishment during the Silurian period or whatever just wouldn't make sense because the United States wasn't around during the Silurian period. Just like Spain/Mexico City/Tenochtitlan aren't all the same thing and things related to them shouldn't all be in the same category just because the area that comprises modern day Mexico City switched between them (and likely other groups) multiple times. So what if readers would find it interesting or that there were trees during the Silurian period on the landmass that now makes up the United States? Also, emptying the categories is allowed. Otherwise, can you point to a guideline/RfC/anything that's not an essay that says it isn't? --Adamant1 (talk) 09:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
(ec)I don't think it makes much sense to continue this discussion if you try to continue it with ridiculous examples, but without actually adressing the issues (simply "claiming" that it isn't accurate that e.g. the Odessa University is in Ukraine, and was established in 1855 or whetever year it is), and if you claim that something can't be someone's PoV if that position is shared by others as well (???). But to address your final point: the introduction of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion says "Except in uncontroversial cases such as reverting vandalism, do not amend or depopulate a category once it has been nominated at CfD as this hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion.". Which is exactly what they are doing, and what is being discussed here. Fram (talk) 09:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
How is it a ridiculous example when fossilized trees from the Silurian period exist on the landmass that the United States currently occupies? It's literally the exact same thing as the University. Just because one is a tree and the other is a building/organization doesn't make the standard we should apply to them any different, or one ridiculous and the other not. I think Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine is a perfectly example of that. There was no Ukraine in 1431. When you do a Google search for "1431 Ukraine" all that comes up is the Wikipedia category. So 100% that's exactly the same as the tree example. If one is ridiculous, then both are and so is the category.
With the CfDs being depopulated, the guideline says not to do it if doing so will be controversial. if it was clear that the CfDs were likely going to be closed as "not keep" (which seemed to be the case) then IMO it wasn't controversial to depopulate them. Unless I missed it I didn't see Mzajac ask JPL not to depopulate the categories in the CfDs themselves either. The fact that JPL, not Mzajac, brought up someone else doing it makes me think that Mzajac wasn't really that concerned about it at the time either. I'd hardly call one person taking issue with something in an ANI complaint after the fact a controversy. It's pretty clear that JPL is being singled out over it also. Since no one else that has done it is a part of this complaint. Plus, Mzajac went out of their way to specifically call out JPL and say he was doing it "to head off consensus." None of which should be encouraged. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Where did you get the "which seemed to be the case"? There have been plenty such discussions, and they nearly always are controversial. The issue of depopulating cats under discussion was already brought to their attention in 2011 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 2#Note), 2012 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 3#CfD a,d January 2021 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 7#Establishment in Taiwan categories) (the latter one makes it abundantly clear that they are aware that these nominations are controversial). And from his current talk page, we have User talk:Johnpacklambert#Russian Empire-categories. As for "ridiculous example", we are talking about the "established in" categories, and you discuss fossilized trees. If you consider that "literally the exact same thing", then our positions on what is reality are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion. Fram (talk) 10:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
I was talking about in the CfD. I don't think a discussion from 10 years ago on his talk page is that great of an example. With the one in 2021, it looks like what was said is that the categories shouldn't be emptied because it looks "like a sneaky attempt to circumvent the CfD process." In no way does that translate to "hey, maybe you shouldn't be emptying categories because it's controversial." Even if it did, one person saying something on a users talk page doesn't mean what they are saying has wider community support. Plus, you can't say the CfD rules are being broken if the categories were emptied before the CfD. Look at it this way, there's a tree on the landmass that the United States currently occupies. The tree (de)established before the United States was formed. Then there's a university in the Ukraine, that was started before the Ukraine was formed. How are those fundamentally different? If you think they are, cool. IMO figuring this out is fundamental both to if JPL did something or not and how to move forward the CfDs. Just saying they are different and that we can't have a meaningful discussion because of it doesn't help though. Pick a better example. I don't really care. What about Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine when there's literally nothing that connects Ukraine to that date? --Adamant1 (talk) 11:08, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Just to accent my point, it appears that JPL removed articles from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine before the CfD was started. So saying the category should not have been depopulated because of the CfD guidelines is wrong. Since there was no CfD at that point. Also, one of the articles he removed, Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine (which was the only example I could find), clearly states that they don't know when the city was founded. So, it clearly shouldn't have been in the category anyway. I have nothing more to add. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Avoiding the "don't depopulate during the CfD" by depopulating right before the CfD is hardly any better, but is a nice example of wikilawyering. And examples of his emptying of cats during the CfDs have been given, e.g. on Odessa University he removed the cat on 23 June[645], 5 days after he has nominated it[646], and at a time when there were already three oppositions to the nomination (so the "didn't know it would be controversial" defense is again shown to be clearly invalid). Also this one, this one, this one... Fram (talk) 10:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm assuming good faith that he didn't know he was going to do the CfD at that point. It happens sometimes. I know I've done AfDs for articles that I edited beforehand because it turned out the sources weren't as solid as I originally thought they were. Specifically with Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine there doesn't have to be anything in the category for people to know that there wasn't such thing as the Ukraine in 1431. So nothing could have been established in the Ukraine at time. It doesn't matter to the CfD what's in the category or not, because it's literally a hoax. None of the keep "voters" ever addressed that fact either. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
He didn't know he was going to do the CfD ... 5 days after he started the CfD[647][648]??? Uh, bye, thanks for confirming my first impression that discussing this with you was a total waste of time. Fram (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD. Since that's what we were talking about. Either way, with your first example he said why he removed it in the changeset comment and it seems like a reasonable explanation. Same with the other one. There isn't a known establishment date for the city. Nothing says clear categorization errors can't be fixed while a CfD is going on. None of the edits that I've seen show a clear intent on his part to try and stake the CfD (or whatever claim Mzajac is making) either. Outside of that, I'm not going to litigate every single edit or discussion he's been involved in over the last 10 years just so I can read (IMO) non-existent bad intent into his actions. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
"Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD." Such an edit doesn't seem to exist, not in the one article you provided, and not in the other one I provided; both of these were already given in the opening post of this thread, so nothing new there. So it appears that not only did you not provide a single new element, you furthermore made, again and again and again, incorrect claims about these old elements. I hope you were simply mistaken and not trolling, but coupled with the "fossilized trees" attempt above it sure looks that way. Fram (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
I didn't know we were required to add anything new to ANI complaints aside from our opinions about if action should be taken on them or not. Which I've clearly gone above and beyond. Also, I don't know what "incorrect claims about these old elements" that I've supposedly repeatedly made is in reference to. Outside of that I'm not engaging in this discussion anymore. Since I've said all I need to and it's pretty obvious that your just trying to provoke me. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment So the view of some is I shopuld leave in a category articles that either A-were clearly created outside of Ukraine in that year if Ukraine is as our own category structure says it was a sub-units of the Russian Empire, ignoring that the Russian Empire recognized no sub-unit. B- articles that expressly state that the year the subject was established is unknown, so how exactly do we then categorize it in a specific year. There should be no precendent to leave such very clearly wrong categorizations in place just because they happen to be the only one in a specific category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
    Liz and Fram have provided sufficiently clear reasoning for why editors should not depopulate categories that they have nominated or plan to nominate for deletion. You don't seem to be engaging with those reasons. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
What about things that took place in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth? Just put them in multiple categories or one for "Ukraine" stuff and call it good there? Also, how is it fair to the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth or not robbing them of their history to credit stuff they did to the Ukraine just because both were in the same area at different times? Adamant1 (talk) 09:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
ANI is not the proper forum for debating the merits of the disputed categories. If a category is problematic, get it fixed or deleted at CfD. If the CfD results in a delete outcome, then the category can easily be removed from all pages at that point. But if consensus does not support such removals, they should not be carried out. In short, JPL needs to get consensus before he blanks the categories. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 11:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with that in general. The problem is that this ANI complaint is about specific edits. One of which was him removing an article from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine because it doesn't have a known establishment date. I don't see how it can be determined if that was the right action to take or not if we can't discuss categories. Nor is it a given that there needs to be consensus before removing an article for something that doesn't have an establishment date from a category that's about places with establishment dates. There is zero consensus that someone can put whatever they want in establishment date categories and then there has to be a protracted, consensus building discussion to find out if the edit is OK before the articles can be removed. No one is out there asking permission on talk pages to remove irrelevant, off topic entries from categories. Even if it empties the category. A few people complaining about something on a user page doesn't represent the broader consensus of the community either. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the angle from which one endeavors to view the situation, the bare fact remains that JPL has been emptying categories shortly before and after he has nominated them for deletion. Moreover, he appears to have disengaged from this thread without acknowledging the substance of the concerns raised by Liz, Fram, and co. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Sure, I agree that at the bare minimum JPL should acknowledge that a few people are concerned with him emptying categories. It's not like he's completely ignored that a couple of people think it's a problem though and in the meantime I'd still like to see the broader issue that led to this dealt with. It's not really helpful to the health of the platform (or editors) if everything ends in someone being blocked from editing because a few people took with their edits in an ANI complaint, without more being done to address the root cause of it. Totally, JPL should acknowledge that's it an issue though. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment (as participant) It's definitely best practice to leave the articles as is in categories so that other editors can evaluate them themselves in CFD. (I may have occasionally done this myself though when I thought I could save a cat before realizing that was hopeless and then nominating it for deletion.) There have also been a lot of other challenges with these CFD discussions with cutting and pasting, questioning motives, and especially WP:RGW. I don't think these nominations, including my edits, have brought us closer to a consensus about the categories. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment Conversely, there seems to be mass-populating of categories going on with regards to expatriates. Raised on Lambert's talkpage, to be met with a wall of rambling text. When another query is raised, it's met with this reply. Hopefully every single one of those categories added is supported in the article and they aren't BLP violations. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 15:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
"A wall of rambling text" that the person he was writing it in response to enthusiastically thanked him for. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:09, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
It was that long I gave up before getting that far! I read that reply has humouring Lambert. I may, of course, be wrong. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • This was raised by Lugnuts just above; is replying "THis is just plain stupidity on your part."[649] really acceptable? It again is a case of Johnpacklambert seeing his interpretation of a term as the only possible one, and rather vehemently denying that other interpretations are possible: but this time it doesn't attack the results, but the person asking a civil, logical question. If this is the stress caused to Johnpacklambert when his categorization edits are challenged, then it may be better to get him removed from discussing categorization. Fram (talk) 08:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Kind of like you telling someone "I hope you were simply mistaken and not trolling" because you don't like their civil, logical questions? "If this is the stress caused to Fram when he's asked questions in ANI, then it may be better to get him removed from ANI discussions." --Adamant1 (talk) 09:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Anyone can look for my comment in this discussion and judge whether it was a reply to a "civil logical question" or instead to yet another blatantly incorrect statement of fact. But feel free to raise my comment in a separate section or subsection if you think it was problematic: what I said to you doesn't really impact what a third person said to a fourth one. Fram (talk) 09:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
How was me posing a hypothetical question about trees that are located in America a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact"? Hypothetical questions don't have correct answers and they aren't facts either. Anyway, what I think is problematic (or really just kind of odd) is that your saying he should be blocked for calling something stupid, an extremely minor thing. When your ignoring him not acknowledging his edits are a problem. Which is something that has consensus is an issue and can actually lead to sanctions. If you want him to be blocked, why not bandwagon around something that actually has a chance of leading to it? "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." --Adamant1 (talk) 10:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
The "blatantly incorrect statement of fact", as I pointed out in that part of the discussion, was you claiming " it appears that JPL removed articles from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine before the CfD was started.", and in a next post "I'm assuming good faith that he didn't know he was going to do the CfD at that point", and in a third post "Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD.", even when it was pointed out again and again that all edits removing articles from categories were made after the CfD had started. I hope this is finally clear now? Fram (talk) 10:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
It's been clear this whole time. At least it has been for me. Apparently it's not clear on your side though. Since as I've already said I miss read the dates of the edit and CfD. Accidentally Miss-reading something isn't a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact." Your the one lacking clarity here because for whatever reason you keep reading non-existent bad intent into the mistake when there was none. Are we finally clear about it now or are you going to keep acting like I miss-read the edit histories on purpose? --Adamant1 (talk) 11:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Where have you said that already? I can't find it in the above discussion. Fram (talk) 11:57, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
So he removed Beskydy Tunnel from Category:1886 establishments in Ukraine at 13:28, on 18 June 2021. He also removed Lviv National Agrarian University from Category:1852 establishments in Ukraine at 13:24 on 18 June 2021. The CfD for both wasn't started until 14:00, 18 June 2021. Which was half an hour after he removed the articles from the categories. Those are the edits I was originally talking about. Are we clear now? Next time you repeatedly accuse someone of making "blatantly incorrect statements again and again", maybe at least check first to make sure they are actually incorrect. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
So "you were originally talking about" these examples you never gave then, and not about the examples you gave at that time? Furthermore, your claim in your previous post (that you misread the dates and had already said this) is apparently something you made up and now try to ignore? Finally, the Lviv National Agrarian University edit was made at 13.24[650], but the CfD nomination was started at 13.23[651]. In the next 40 minutes or so, he was adding cats to the nomination, and removing articles from the cats at the same time (e.g. the Beskydy edit at 13.28, and the cat nom at 13.29[652]). So, as has been said all this time, he wasn't first removing articles from categories and only then realising that deleting the cats altogether would be better: he was removing some articles from the categories during and after the nominations. As was clear from the very start of this discussion, and is clear from his edit list (here, edits starting at 13.06 on 18 June and ending at 14.01 the same day). Fram (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Why are you continuing to accuse me of trolling and trying to hide the discussion? Weird thing to do if your right and I'm just trolling. Also, it's Interesting that this whole conversation suddenly became off topic and of zero benefit when it turned out you were wrong, not back when you repeatedly trying to instigate and perpetuate things lol. Anyway, I did miss-read the date of one of his edits, which was the example I originally provided you. That doesn't mean it was the only example I had or was going to give you though. I just decided not to provide the other ones because you started accusing me of trolling and I didn't want to feed into your bad faithed baiting. So there was really zero point. Plus, it's not like you couldn't have looked at his edits yourself anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
This seems to have been a bit de-railed somewhat. Notwithstanding, there are still some legitimate concerns still to be addressed. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
  • And, in the meantime, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#1431 establishments in Ukraine has been closed: “The result of the discussion was: delete as currently empty”. It appears as if the nominator emptying the category led directly to its closing, possibly irregardless of consensus or its absence in the discussion. —Michael Z. 20:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Indeed, a Cfd discussion can hardly take place if the category has been emptied, so this practice subverts the process in the most serious way. It is easy to get away with, and rarely penalized, and that needs to change. God knows what the TLDR above is about, but whoever has been doing this should be sanctioned. Johnbod (talk) 03:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have misgivings about whether this thread should be closed by a non-admin. Furthermore, I object to the claim that the 1431 CfD is a 'red herring'. If I understand correctly, it was JPL who emptied out the category, and the subsequent deletion was based on the emptiness of the category, so it seems that JPL's actions are absolutely the reason why that category was deleted. I urge @: to reevaluate their close, especially in light of recent comments which suggest the discussion was not over. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you objecting because you think my close is wrong, or because I am not an admin? And I stand by (and will continue to stand by) my statement regarding the 1431 category; it is simply an observation of discussion on other pages. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:34, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Both. I think this thread was murky enough that it required admin attention. Also, your statement on the 1431 category is incorrect. JPL emptied the category; the category was deleted because it was empty. So yes, that category was deleted because of JPL's actions and it is not at all a 'red herring'. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 12:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • While administrators go through a vetting process at WP:RFA, a non-admin can have just as much if not more experience in handling closes such as this. User:力 has been active on the project for 5 years, with 40k+ edits. I haven't done a thorough review, but I think WP:NACEXP has been met based on my cursory review. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
    Regardless of the closer's level of experience, the closing statement is still flawed. That's the bigger issue. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Mareklug passed away

Mareklug died on January 21, 2020. His account was already blocked indefinitely on plwiki. Tempest (talk) 00:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Trimmed per OSPOL Primefac (talk) 10:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tempest: Sorry to hear that. The instructions you need are at Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/Guidelines. Narky Blert (talk) 06:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

El Greekos

Users warnings are enough to warrant a block. Last edit "Stop vandalizing the page just because of your ethnic biased and use a real account."[653] 85.108.134.234 (talk) 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Stop x nuvola.svgBlockedindefinitely. Fully protected for a period of one week, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. El_C 11:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)