위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1003
Wikipedia:사용자:레벌버트
사용자가 편집한 매우 이상한 내용:레발버트남성 성기의 이미지를 자신의 작품으로 올린 다음 수많은 기사에 사진을 추가했다(인간 성기 크기, 인간 성기, 남성 생식계, 성기관, .포피부, 글랜스 성기, 신체 털, 푸아틱 털 등). 논쟁의 여지가 없이 선의로, 그러나 모든 덧셈을 개선하거나 단순히 나쁜 삽화(end-on 사진은 그렇지 않다).대부분의 물품에 매우 유용하다.경고 및 사용자 의견 제시 후:Ianmacm Levalbert가 대화 페이지를 위키백과로 리디렉션:Levalbert , 페이지를 비운 다음 위키백과로 리디렉션:데사아섹.블랭킹 경고는 허용되지만 삭제될 페이지로 이동하여 숨기는 것은 적절하지 않다.이 작업을 취소할 수 없으므로 관리자(또는 적어도 페이지 이동 권한을 가진 사람)가 필요한 것이다.미터 (토크) 10:21, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 네, 르발베르가 여기서 좀 장난을 좀 쳤는데..--19년 2월 17일 (UTC) 10:39, 2019년 2월 17일 (
- 퍼빅 헤어에서 이미지를 포함시켜야 한다는 주장은 알 수 있지만, 나머지 기사들에 대해서는 표준 이하의 예다.레비브 ich 03:50, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 댓글을 달다.회원님의 사진을 찍어서 사이트 곳곳에 게시하는 것은 우리가 논의하고 있는 것이 아니라는 점을 지적하고 싶다...엄밀히 말하면 그가 한 방식으로는 위반이 아니니까위키피디아는 가끔 정말 이상해-매튜 J. 롱 -토크-☖ 02:11, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- ...누구나 편집할 수 있는...레비비치 02:36, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 우리가 여기서 누구든지 회원이 될 수 있다고 말하는 것은 우리가 의미하는 바가 아니다.뉴욕브래드 (대화) 04:34, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 모든 사용자가 동일하지만 일부 사용자는 다른 사용자보다 동일하다.-Abelmoschus Escanticus (대화 • 기여) 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC) 14:00[
- 우리가 여기서 누구든지 회원이 될 수 있다고 말하는 것은 우리가 의미하는 바가 아니다.뉴욕브래드 (대화) 04:34, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 그게 위반이 아니라는 것에 동의할 수 있을지 모르겠어.우리는 보통 COI 문제, IMO에 대한 기사를 작성하기 위해 그들이 만든 이미지를 추가하는 것을 고려하지 않지만, 특히 홍보적인 측면이 분명히 있을 때는 더욱 그러할 수 있다.간단히 예를 들면, 내가 쉽게 식별할 수 있는 곳에 있는 자신의 이미지를 찍은 다음 그것을 인간, 인간, 인간, 중국인, 해외 중국인, 뉴질랜드인, 말레이시아인, 말레이시아인, 유럽계 뉴질랜드인, 중국계 뉴질랜드인, 그리고 그 밖의 많은 기사에 추가하기 시작했다면, 이것은 내게 COI 문제인가 뭔가, ev.en 만약 그 이미지가 기술적으로 그들 각각의 주제에 관한 것이라면.WP의 질문도 있다.아니, 이 편집자는 그들이 기사를 더 좋게 만들었다고 믿었기 때문에 이것을 추가한 것인가, 아니면 다른 이유 때문에 이런 것을 덧붙인 것인가?내가 이미 제재가 필요하다고 말하는 것이 아니라 단순히 그것이 하나 이상의 지침이나 정책을 위반할 가능성이 있다고 생각하는 것이다.닐 아인(토크) 18:09, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- ...누구나 편집할 수 있는...레비비치 02:36, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
그 파일들은 Commons에서 삭제 후보로 지명되었지만, 나는 그것이 일어나기 전까지 WP에 추가될 것을 요청했다.빌. 홈랜더 (대화) 04:05, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
비파괴 이미지 교체
모든 그릇에 치킨, 모든 케이크에 과일, 그리고 이 편집자가 소통할 때까지 블록.레거시pac (대화) 21:57, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
그의 기여를 보아주십시오.
나는 되돌아가고 있었고, 그래서 연루되었으니, 이것을 다른 관리자들에게 맡길 것이다.
다수의 다른 편집자들이 여러 번 경고한 후, 이 사용자는 단순히 사용 설명 게시물을 되돌리고 계속 사용하게 된다.문제는 일반적으로 좋은 리드 이미지를 객관적으로 더 나쁜 이미지로 대체하는 것이다.
최근 예:
- 치킨 누들 수프에서 사용자가 파일:파일을 대체할 Tamgy-tang 2.jpg:치킨 누들 수프.jpg.이 새로운 이미지는 국수가 없는 통닭이 실제 국수 수프를 보여주는 이미지를 대신하는 것을 보여준다.
- 과일 케이크에서, 이 과일의 이미지는 실제로 과일의 케이크를 보여준다.그는 그것을 아이스 생일 케이크로 대체했다.아이싱은 과일 케이크를 흐리게 하고, 신선한 과일과 말로 덮인 생일 케이크라는 사실은 과일 케이크를 정말 나타내지 못하게 만든다.그는 또한 "생일 휴릿 케이크"라는 자막과 철자를 잘못 썼으며 "생일" 소문자 "b"를 추가했다.
안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 00:24, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- @Anna Frodesiak:통보하는 걸 잊은 것 같아.--Bb23 (대화) 00:34, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 오 이런, 네 말이 맞아.나는 여기에 좀처럼 글을 올리지 않아서 까먹었다.고마워!안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 00:36, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 완료. 안나 프로데시아크 (토크) 00:37, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
나는 여기에 거의
글을 올리지않아서 잊어버렸다
: 분명히 우리보다 똑똑하다.-Bb23 (대화) 00:44, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 실험에 따르면, 나는 여우원숭이보다 약간 더 똑똑해서, 당신들에 대해 뭐라고 하는지 잘 모르겠어. (하지만, 나는...야채를 수확할 수 있어...)집안일을 하고..." 그래서 그런 게 있다.)
안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 00:52, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 안나, 당신이 그들의 토크 페이지에 당신의 공지를 남긴 이후로 편집자는 글을 올리지 않았어.나는 ANI에 대해 즉각적인 조치가 요구된다고 생각하지 않는다.추가 작업을 수행하기 전에 메시지 응답 방법 및 응답 여부를 확인하십시오.그들의 소식을 들어보자.리즈Read! Talk! 01:00, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 안녕 리즈, 좋은 계획이야나는 그들의 기여에 대해 몇 가지 더 많은 관심을 갖고 싶다.일을 천천히 하는 것은 좋은 생각이다.대단히 고맙습니다안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 01:11, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이러한 이미지 편집이 차선책이라는 것에 매우 동의하며 나는 사용자 토크 페이지와 함께 내 감시 목록에 그 기사들을 추가했다.반면에, 그러한 기사들은 세계적인 관점을 가져야 한다.우리는 닭국수 기사가 없고, 그것은 닭국수로의 리디렉션이다.치킨 수프에 국수를 넣는 것은 미국과 캐나다에서 흔한 일이지만, 다른 나라에서는 그렇지 않다.그러므로, 전세계적으로 그 광범위한 주제에 대해 논하는 치킨 수프에 대한 기사에 닭 육수에 닭 전체의 사진을 추가하는 것은 본질적으로 잘못된 것은 아니다.몸이 안 좋은 아내에게 치킨 수프를 대접했을 뿐인데, 육수에 가깝고 면발이 들어가지 않았다.하지만 이 편집자는 이 이미지들과 그들이 대체하려고 했던 이미지들에 대해 논의할 필요가 있다.컬렌렛328 04:00 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC) 토론하자[
- 나한테는 (아시아 인맥으로) 치킨 수프와 치킨 국수 수프가 큰 차이가 난다.하지만 그건 제쳐두고, 국물 한 그릇에 닭 전체를 담는 것은 좋은 인포박스 일러스트가 아니다 - 나는 닭 전체를 담아서 (세상 어디든) 국 한 그릇을 대접받은 적이 없다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 11시 45분 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 고마워, 컬렌328.내가 그걸 어떻게 몰랐는지 모르겠어.이곳은 이른 시간이었고 나의 커피 수준은 낮았다.어쨌든, 그렇다, 그 기사는 수프에 관한 것이다.대체 이미지의 주요 요소는 통닭이다.안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 21:39, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 단지 무언가를 지적하기 위해, 내가 이미지에 대해 생각하는 것은 그리 중요하지 않다.많은 편집자들이 대부분의 이미지 교체를 되돌리고 있다.그것은 문제이다.이상적으로, 편집자는 우리의 조언을 받아 그들의 토크 페이지에서 왔다 갔다 할 것이다.그들은 BRD뿐만 아니라 영상에 대한 안내도 무시하는 것 같다.그래도 좋은 뜻인 것 같아.안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 21:43, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이러한 이미지 편집이 차선책이라는 것에 매우 동의하며 나는 사용자 토크 페이지와 함께 내 감시 목록에 그 기사들을 추가했다.반면에, 그러한 기사들은 세계적인 관점을 가져야 한다.우리는 닭국수 기사가 없고, 그것은 닭국수로의 리디렉션이다.치킨 수프에 국수를 넣는 것은 미국과 캐나다에서 흔한 일이지만, 다른 나라에서는 그렇지 않다.그러므로, 전세계적으로 그 광범위한 주제에 대해 논하는 치킨 수프에 대한 기사에 닭 육수에 닭 전체의 사진을 추가하는 것은 본질적으로 잘못된 것은 아니다.몸이 안 좋은 아내에게 치킨 수프를 대접했을 뿐인데, 육수에 가깝고 면발이 들어가지 않았다.하지만 이 편집자는 이 이미지들과 그들이 대체하려고 했던 이미지들에 대해 논의할 필요가 있다.컬렌렛328 04:00 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC) 토론하자[
- 안녕 리즈, 좋은 계획이야나는 그들의 기여에 대해 몇 가지 더 많은 관심을 갖고 싶다.일을 천천히 하는 것은 좋은 생각이다.대단히 고맙습니다안나 프로데시아크 (대화) 01:11, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 안나, 당신이 그들의 토크 페이지에 당신의 공지를 남긴 이후로 편집자는 글을 올리지 않았어.나는 ANI에 대해 즉각적인 조치가 요구된다고 생각하지 않는다.추가 작업을 수행하기 전에 메시지 응답 방법 및 응답 여부를 확인하십시오.그들의 소식을 들어보자.리즈Read! Talk! 01:00, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 실험에 따르면, 나는 여우원숭이보다 약간 더 똑똑해서, 당신들에 대해 뭐라고 하는지 잘 모르겠어. (하지만, 나는...야채를 수확할 수 있어...)집안일을 하고..." 그래서 그런 게 있다.)
이런 종류의 치킨에 대한 기사가 없구나.—캠브리지베이날씨 14시 53분, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
다소 임의적인 섹션 구분
나는 사용자가 이 실에 대해 알고 있는 것처럼 보이지만, 기사에 있는 사진들을 대체하여 계속 편집하고 있다는 것을 알았다.@Geoffreyrabbit:아무 말도 하지 않고 이 일을 계속하면 블록의 위험이 있다. -- a. 17:00, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 그들의 기여도를 보면 이 활동은 꽤 오랫동안 진행되어 왔다.제안:나는 위키피디아 기사에서 이미지를 교체하는 것을 금지하는 주제를 제안한다.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 21:38, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 주제 금지를 지지한다.나는 그들이 다른 WP 기여자들과 지속적으로 접촉하지 않을 경우 불가피하게 WP:통신 차단. -- a. 08:59, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 사용자가 제기된 우려에 응답할 때까지 차단되어야 한다고 제안한다. 사용자들은 현재 분명히 알고 있고 무시하고 있다.의사소통은 협력 프로젝트의 핵심이다.피쉬+카레이트 09:20, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 표준 ANI 통지는 토론에 참여하라는 말도, 심지어 그것이 권고적이거나 적절한 일이라는 말도 하지 않으며, 특정한 실과 연결되지도 않는다.그게 바뀌어야 할지도 모르지만 그때까지...나는 여기 편집자의 토크 페이지에 더 직접적인 제안을 올렸다.약간의 오해를 불러일으킬 수 있는 언어 장벽이 있는 것 같다.Leviv ich 23:39, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 좋은 소식입니다, 여러분!내 토크 페이지 포스트가 읽혔다.레비비치 04:35, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 나는 사용자가 제기된 우려에 응답할 때까지 차단되어야 한다고 제안한다. 사용자들은 현재 분명히 알고 있고 무시하고 있다.의사소통은 협력 프로젝트의 핵심이다.피쉬+카레이트 09:20, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 주제 금지를 지지한다.나는 그들이 다른 WP 기여자들과 지속적으로 접촉하지 않을 경우 불가피하게 WP:통신 차단. -- a. 08:59, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
케르필리 출신의 할머니가 있었다.
예의를 갖추지 못한 자
그녀는 ANI로 끌려갔다.
세프리니 사용에 대한 경고를 받은 곳
그리고 화가 나서 그녀의 활동을 삭제했다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:45, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 한때 스티브라는 이름의 젊은 남자가 있었는데, 그의 운율은 모든 것을 괴롭혔다.그가 한번 해보는 동안, 그것은 쓰레기였고, 그래서 절대로 리머릭을 하지 마라.피쉬+카라테 11:29, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
WP에서 편집자의 활동을 검토한 결과, 그들이 영어에 특별히 능숙하지 않다는 것은 분명하며, 편집자로서 적절하게 기능할 수 있는 그들의 능력에 의문을 제기할 것이다.위키백과:역량은 메기짐과 비눗셈기 12:37, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
사용자:작업 중인 MPANT가 사용자가 보고함:심각한 개인 공격 및 위협을 위한 Luciusfoxx
Luciusfoxx 및 MjolnirPants 나사산 포장 |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
OP 차단됨.레거시pac (토크) 01:31, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC) MjolnirPants는 Cullen에 의해 31시간 동안 업무 중단을 막았다.DLOhcierkim(talk) 05:06, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라 |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
페이지: 사용자 대화:루시우스폭스 (제목 기록 링크 감시 로그 편집)
보고 중인 사용자: 국회의원들이 일하고 있다. (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
사용자:직장에 있는 MPANTS는 심각한(때때로, 심지어 구두로 폭력적인) 인신공격과 위협을 가했다.
- [2]그녀는 내게 "
젠장 꺼져"
라고 말한다. - [3]정치에 대한 그녀의 자발적인 의견에 동의하지 않은 것에 대해 나를
"
내 자신을 - [4]경박한 ANI로 나를 위키 변호할 것
- [5]그녀는 내게 "
사포 데일도와
핫소스를 루브처럼 곁들여 잘난
척하는네
개똥같은 헛소리
집어치워"라고 말한다.
- 개인 공격 증거 사용자로부터의 개인 공격:국회의원들은 "자신을 극복하라"와 같은 발언과 "당신은 단지 당신에 대한 ANI 실에 인용되기를 빌고 있을 뿐"과 같은 이유 없고, 선입견적인 위협으로 시작했다.그들은 분명히 미개하고, 선의가 부족하며, 인신공격의 일종이다.하지만 내가 예의 바르게 행동하라는 겸손한 경고가 있은 후, 편집자는 그녀의 편집 요약을 통해 나에게
"사포
도,핫소스를 루브처럼 곁들여 잘난
척하는네
개같은 헛소리
"라고말하는
구두 성폭행으로부터 그녀의 인신공격에 대해 복수를 했다.
"[
6] 그리고 나서 내 토크 페이지를 파괴하고, "젠장 꺼져"
라고 말하고, 그녀가 내 의견을 "터무니없는 위선"이라고 여기는 것에 대해 ANI로 나를 계속 위협하고 있다.[7] 그녀가 내 의견을 좋아하지 않는다고 해서 그녀가 나를 공격할 권리가 있다는 뜻은 아니다.나는 ANI로 위협할 만큼 충분한 지식과 경험을 가진 사람이라면 또한 이런 종류의 심각한 NSFW 언어와 다른 사람에 대한 성적 혐오적 괴롭힘이 적어도 여기서 결코 용납될 수 없는 언어는 말할 것도 없고 인신공격에 해당한다는 것을 알 만큼 충분히 지식이 있다고 생각한다. - 경고:나는 예의 바르게 신의를 적용하고 인신공격을 중단하라고 경고했다.[8] 보복으로 파괴적인 편집장이 다시 나를 공격했는데, 두 번의 심한 인신공격으로 그 중 하나는 언어 폭력적이고 성적으로 경멸적인 것이었다.
경고 후 나에 대한 인신공격 및 위협:
이것은 꽤 잘리고 건조하다.검토해주신 분들께 시간 내주시고 이해해주셔서 감사드린다.루시우스폭스 (대화) 21:47, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
설명:
@MPANTS(작업 중):
- 여기서 역사를 파헤치고 싶진 않지만, 약간의 배경에서 OP의 빌어먹을 불안과 혼란은 토크에서 볼 수 있다.이를 초래한 분쟁의 근본 원인으로 보이는 디네시 D'Souza#Felony 상태.물론, 화를 내는 것은 나쁜 일이지만, 이 특정한 이야기에는 매우 많은 양면이 있고 오직 한 가지만이 여기에서 제시되고 있는 것이 분명하다.∙ 무지개빛 22:12, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- (충돌 편집)사포 코멘트는... 많긴 한데, 이건 정말 실행이 안 되는 것 같아.다음과 같은 상황에 관계없이 이 상황에 대해 살펴보는 것을 추천한다.Talk:Dineesh_D'Souza#Felony_status.이는 (a) NPOV 또는 RS에 대한 파악이 매우 미흡하고 템플릿과 프로세스에 대한 편집 개수가 훨씬 많은 새로운 노골적인 POV 퍼셔들을 다룰 때 우리가 얼마나 많은 여유를 주는지, 그리고 (b) 그들 자신의 대화 페이지에 대해 우리가 얼마나 많은 여유를 주는지의 또 다른 사례 연구처럼 보인다.후자는 전형적으로 꽤 많았다.전자는 일반적으로 중립적인 백과사전을 협력적으로 구축하기 위해 여기 있는 다른 편집자들과 확실히 협력할 때보다 더 위대했다.그냥 무시하거나 NPOVN에 보고하거나 TBAN을 기다리는 게 나을지도...\\ 22:21, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- "이게 누구 양말이야?" 미국 정치 기사들에게 인기 있는 패러리어 게임이야...오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(대화) 22:29, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
- Tsk. D'Souza 페이지에 딱 한 번만 살짝 편집했는데, 그건 예의 바랐어.내가 되돌아왔을 때, 나는 그것을 내버려두었다.나는 내 토크 페이지 토론은 편집자가 아닌 콘텐츠에 초점을 맞추고 D'Souza에 대한 나만의 겸손한 의견만을 제시했다.리드 단락에 속하는 것에 대해 (최소한으로 유지한) 나의 개인적인 의견에 대해 "파괴"하거나 자극적인 것은 전혀 없었다.그러나 이런 행동에 대해 이미 경고를 받고 금지된 편집자로부터 성적인 경멸적인 공격이나 언어 폭력적인 언어가 "행동할 수 없다"고 솔직하게 생각한다면 그것은 그 자체를 말해준다.왜 그 때, 부패에 관한 언급된 무정부 상태와 개방적인 입장이 존재하는가?하지만, 당신의 논리는 시간과 의견에 감사하다는 것이다.루시우스폭스 (대화) 22:32, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
나는 D'Souza 페이지를 정확히 한 번 부드럽게 편집했다. 그것은 예의 바르다.
내가 되돌아왔을 때, 나는 그것을 내버려두었다.
나는 내 토크 페이지 토론은 편집자가 아닌 콘텐츠에 초점을 맞추고 D'Souza에 대한 나만의 겸손한 의견만을 제시했다.
리드 단락에 속하는 것에 대해 (최소한으로 유지한) 나의 개인적인 의견에 대해 "파괴"하거나 자극적인 것은 전혀 없었다.
—우리가 읽을 수 있다는 것을 알고 있겠지?여하튼 이것 또한 보라.∙ 무지개빛 22:35, 2019년 2월 19일(UTC)[- 사실, 나는 실제 기사 자체에 대한 나의 편집을 언급하고 있었다.말이 아니다.토크 페이지 자체에는 1차적인 반박이 1회뿐이었고, 서로 다른 편집자에게 3회의 짧은 답변(생각)이 있었다.문법 등을 고치기 위한 사소한 편집도 포함하지 않고서는, 그것은 거의 당신이 의도하는 것이 아니었다.루시우스폭스 (대화) 22:44, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 여기에 두 가지 선택지가 있는 것 같다(적어도 반사실적이 아닌 두 가지가 있다). (1) 고소인과 피고인 모두에게 제재를 가해야 하는 양방향 문제로 볼 수도 있고, (2) 고소인과 피고인 모두에게 잠시 진정하고 서로 피하라고 해야 하는 양방향 문제로 볼 수도 있다.(목표가 되어야 할) 평화적 편집으로 돌아가는 가장 짧은 길은 2번이라고 생각한다. --Tryptofish (토크) 22:40, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
예의에 대한 깨진 약속
MjolnirPants (대화 · 기여)와 그의 이타 계정 하원의원들이 직장에서 또 다시 심한 비도덕성을 발휘했다.2018년 10월, MjolnirPants의 불성실성에 대한 격동의 ANI 하위 서류가 있었다.위키백과:관리자 게시판/IncidentArchive995#무절제.최종 성명은 MjolnirPants (그리고 국회의원들은) 노골적인 인종차별을 다룰
때 동료 편집자들을 존중하고 미사여구를 언급하는 것에 동의했으며, 폭력 위협을 암시하는 추가적인 논평은 즉각 차단될 것이라는 경고를 받았다.
ANI 스레드는 또한 널리 참여하는 "Buck off" RfC로 이어진다.RfC 기간 중, 국회의원들은 스스로 차단할 것을 요구했고, 그렇게 3개월 동안 그렇게 했다[11].2월 5일 이 블록이 만료된 후 돌아온 그는 분명히 예전 방식으로 돌아왔다.
- 폭력 환상[12] 이곳의 맥락은 익살스럽지만, 지난 ANI 실에서 국회의원들이 폭력 위협에 대해 경고를 받았다는 점은 주목할 만하다.
- 루치우스폭스라는 새로운 사용자로부터 예의범절 템플릿을 받은 후, 국회의원들은 편집 요약과 함께 그것을 그의 토크 페이지에서 삭제했다:
사포도 딜도와 핫소스를 루브처럼 가지고
옆으로옆으로 잘난
척하는당신의 개소리, 엿먹이.
[13] - 그리고 나서 그는 "내 토크 페이지에서 꺼져도 돼"라는 제목으로 자신의 토크 페이지에 루시우스폭스를 금지시켰다[14].
남을 존중하는 마음으로 분명히 대한다는 것은 마지막 ANI 실에서 막히는 것을 피하겠다는 공허한 약속에 불과했다.거기서 -180deg 코드를 삭제해 달라고 해서 그의 토크 페이지[15]에 제지를 당했기 때문에, 그런 식으로 얘기를 꺼낼 수가 없다. --Pudeo (토크) 21:59, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 루시우스폭스 수동적 공격적 헛소리는 정말 지겨워.사포 딜도로 망칠 필요가 있어.물론 루시어스폭스가 사포질도랑 떡칠 필요가 있다고 말하는 것과는 다르지공평하게 하기에는 꽤 작은 구별.'비자유적 목표' 편집자들에게 코멘트를 요청하는 것은 쉬운 영어로 '이것을 계속 유지하면 게시판에 나오게 될 것이다'라고 말하는 것은 고사하고 DS 경고를 받아달라는 것이다.오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(대화) 22:13, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 위에 쓴 것 이상으로 이것에 덧붙일 것이 많지는 않지만 ....
폭력 환상
은 말도 안 된다.목표3000은 위키피디아 일부에서 가끔 불쾌한 분위기를 풍기는 상황에서 "나를 짜증나게 하기 위해 고안된 AI 캐릭터로 비디오 게임처럼 취급한다"고 말했고, MP는 "비디오 게임에서 짜증나는 NPC를 주로 찍는다"고 그 대사를 이어갔다.여기서 읽으려면 하원의원이 특별히 아무도 아닌 것에 대해 비유를 하기보다는 미묘한 위협을 가한다고 생각하겠지...\\ 22:26, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 하지만, 이것은 단순히 농담이 아니며 당신은 방금 불평한 것 보다 그런 종류의 행동에 덜 우선순위를 두고 있다.명백한 적갈색은 명백하다.루시우스폭스 (대화) 22:38, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 사실 MP에 응답할 생각을 하고 있었다: "와우, 도움이 필요해 -아니면 총알이 더 필요해."분명히, 이것은 위협이나 심지어 환상 같은 것이 아니었다.그리고, 나는 그가 총을 좋아하기 때문에 MP와 의견이 다르며 소유 연령을 100세로 올려야 한다고 생각한다.나는 예의 WP:5P4의 강한 신봉자다.인간의 담론은 어디에나 공손함이 결여되어 있고 그것은 문제가 된다.하지만, 나는 또한 솔직한 성격을 믿는데, 그것은 비도덕성에 가까울 수도 있다.사실, MP의 역사는 자신의 신념과 반대로 추가/삭제를 주장하려는 의지를 분명히 보여준다.즉, 그는 자신의 신념을 위해 어떤 사건을 보좌할 것인가에 대해 중립의 편을 드는 것이다.우린 이게 더 필요해우리는 POV 편집이 자신의 신념에 맞더라도 외칠 수 있는 편집자가 필요하다.그렇지 않고서는 어떻게 하면 논란이 큰 시기에 중립성과 정직한 발표의 개념을 충실할 수 있을까?O3000 (토크) 23:16, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 하지만, 이것은 단순히 농담이 아니며 당신은 방금 불평한 것 보다 그런 종류의 행동에 덜 우선순위를 두고 있다.명백한 적갈색은 명백하다.루시우스폭스 (대화) 22:38, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 우리가 이런 실외에서 교류한 적이 없는데 왜 푸도가 자꾸 나타나 나에 대해 불평하는지 궁금하다.우리의 기여를 확인해봐라. 이 편집자는 내가 허가를 받도록 하기 위해 ANI 스레드를 시작하는 것 외에는 나와 교류한 적이 없다.그것은 유치하고 교과서적인 괴롭힘이다.그리고 위의 그들의 "증거"는 순전히 빙빙 도는 것이다."그는 파 크라이를 즐겨 연주하니, 그러므로 그는 틀림없이 위협적인 존재일 것이다!!"그만 좀 하라고.어떤 사람은 푸도가 어떤 드라마 게시판에 기고하는 모든 일에서 그들은 한번도 실패한 적이 없다는 것을 알 수 있을 것이다) 자유주의적인 성향의 편집자를 공격하거나 b) 보수적인 것처럼 보이는 편집자를 옹호한다.거기다가 그들은 사용자 페이지에 내가 볼 때마다 그것을 계속 유지하기 위한 구실에 더 가까운 작은 메모와 함께 스와스티카를 보관하고 있다는 사실, 그리고 푸도가 정확히 이 프로젝트에서 무엇을 하고 있는지 아주 분명한 그림이 나타나기 시작한다.
- 루시어스에 대해 말하자면, 그들은 그것에 대해 미묘하려고 애쓰면서 나를 두 번 모욕했다. (한 번은 내가 우스꽝스러운 편집 제안에 응답한 후에 "비자유주의적이고 객관적인 (읽기: 중립적인) 편집자"를 요구했고, 그리고 나서 내가 자신들을 하나의 자유주의자라고 자칭한 후에 누군가가 그들을 자유주의자라고 부른다면 그들이 불쾌해할 것이라고 다시 주장하면서), 그리고 나서 대담하게도 나를 비-e로 다듬었다.현존하는 인신공격이건 명백한 POV 푸셔의 피해자인 척하는 거야 (얼마나 뻔해, 물어봐?유죄 판결을 받은 흉악범이 힐러리 클린턴을 반역죄로 직접 고발하는 같은 논평에서 "와이너나 클린튼과는 달리 법을 준수하는 시민"이라고 주장하는 것은 어떨까.
- 그래서 응, 내 반응은 짠했어.그것은 또 다른 경험 많은 편집자의 "가장 좋아하는 편집 요약"이기도 했다. 왜냐하면 그것은 바로 내가 쓴 것이었기 때문이다: 코웃음을 치는-우유-당신의 코웃음이다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:39, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- 나는 너와 싸우지 않는다.난 네가 불쌍해.나는 결코 모욕을 미끼로 하거나 지시하지 않았습니다, 의원님들.내 말은 분명히 비당파적, 자유주의적인, 그리고 그렇다, 비보수적인 편집자들이 들어와서 토론에 참여하도록 요구하는 일반적인 발언이었다. 왜냐하면 그 기사에 정치적으로 투자되지 않은 편향적이지 않은 편집자는 무게가 있기 때문이다.너를 향한 그 말 속에는 아무 것도 없었고, 감히 의원님들, 그 어떤 사람에게도 그 상황을 보여 주려 하지 않았소.그리고, 그래, 나는 누군가를 진보주의자로, 또는 심지어 보수주의자로 분류하는 것은 모욕적인 것이라고 말했어. 네가 나를 모르고 내가 너를 모르기 때문에.라벨링, 기간은 모욕적이다.다시 말하지만, 그 무엇도 개인적으로 당신을 향하지는 않았다.너의 얇은 피부는 내 죄가 아니다.너는 단지 분명히 부적절한 행동, 전에 충고받았던 행동을 합리화하려고 하는 것이다.시간을 내어 너의 동기를 밝혀줘서 고마워.루시우스폭스 (대화) 22:58, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나의 분노는 당신이 극단적인 적개심으로 다른 편집자들을 몰아내고 있다는 것이다.하지만 만약 누군가가 부정적인 말을 한다면, 당신은 그것들을 당신의 토크 페이지에서 금지한다.너의 적대적인 토론은 게시판에서 이루어지기 때문에 너를 못 알아채는 것은 어렵다.조금 전 RSN에서 월터 괴를리츠와 침을 뱉고 당신의 생각이 명확하지 않다고 말하는 것과 같은 모욕 때문에 그가 차단될 수도 있다고 말했다.[16] WP가 없기 때문에 방금 한 말 때문에 그나 내가 막혔다는 것을 알고 있을 것이다.UNBLOCKBLACKELES는 우리가 무엇을 하든지 옹호하는 자세를 취한다?그것은 매우 거만하다.무엇이 가치있는지, 이런 식의 정책 집행에 대한 이중 잣대를 반대하는 것도 중요한데, 왜냐하면 욕설 베하우비어를 가능케 하는 것은 벗어날 수 있다는 것을 알고 있기 때문이다. --푸도 (대화) 23:20, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
나의 분노는 당신이 극단적인 적개심으로 다른 편집자들을 몰아내고 있다는 것이다.
이름을 대세요.하지만 만약 누군가가 부정적인 말을 한다면, 당신은 그것들을 당신의 토크 페이지에서 금지한다.
거짓말이지나는 루치우스의 템플리트화된 메시지와 본질적으로 같은 메시지에 환영하며 응수했을 뿐이다.WP가 없어서 네가 방금 한 말 때문에 그나 내가 막혔다는 거 너도 알잖아.
UNBLOCKBLACKELES는 우리가 무엇을 하든지 옹호하는 자세를 취한다?
월터가 날 직접적으로 모욕했어 그리고 차단되지 않았지 그러니 그건 말도 안 되는 소리야하지만 아마도 당신은 왜 다른 편집자들이 당신의 변호에 오고 싶어하지 않는지 자문해봐야 할지도 모른다. 반면에 그들은 당신이 생각하는 어떤 남자에 대한 변호에 기꺼이 오는 것 같다. 그와 동의하지 않는 사람은 누구든 모욕한다.그것은 매우 거만하다.
다른 사람들에게 방어당하는 것은 거만하다고?당신이 계속 사용하는 그 단어...나는 그것이 당신이 생각하는 것을 의미한다고 생각하지 않는다.가치 있는 것은, 여러분이 그것을 벗어날 수 있다는 것을 아는 것이기 때문에 정책 집행에 대한 이런 종류의 이중 잣대를 반대하는 것도 중요하다.
그렇게 계속 등을 쓰다듬으면 테니스 팔꿈치가 나올 거야.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- 그리고 그것을 가장 좋아하는 편집 요약본이라고 설명한 편집자는 나였다.(사실, 내가 가장 좋아하는 것은 플라잉 스파게티 몬스터에서 편집본을 "무소고 무소고"로 되돌렸을 때였지만, 어쨌든)여기서 결론은 국회의원들이 미끼를 입었다는 것이다. --Tryptofish (대화) 22:43, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 마치 위키피디아 편집자들이 다른 사람이 먼저 무언가를 한다면 그들의 행동에 대해 책임을 질 수 없다는 것처럼 "배움" 때문에 일을 처리하는 것이 매우 불편하다.나는 MP가 그것을 그냥 부드럽게 유지하거나, 아니면 적어도 매운 개인 마사지기와 그 밖에 없는 것(그리고 모든 것)은 그냥 놔두기를 바란다.나는 미끼가 실행 가능한 핑계라고 생각하지 않지만, 나는 예의범절에 대한 그러한 규칙들이 위키피디아가 편집자들의 집단이라는 생각에서 비롯되었다고 생각한다.중립적이고 잘 소싱된 기사에 기여할 의도가 전혀 없는, 개연성이 있는 양말은 같은 것이 아니다.\ 22:52, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 좋아, 어쩌면 '배팅'이 가장 정밀한 단어 선택이 아니었을지도 모른다(프로젝트에는 거장 미끼가 부족하지 않지만), 하지만 여기서의 논쟁은 정말로 친트럼프 POV 푸싱 선언인 루시우스폭스로부터 시작되는데, 그의 사용자 페이지는 트럼프의 D'souza 사면은 D's D'souza가 무죄라는 것을 의미하며 토론을 시작했다는 것이다."히트잡"의 ctim그것이 사용자 대화 페이지에서 화가 난 해고를 정당화하는가?음, 분노는 그냥 뜬금없이 나온 게 아니었어. --Tryptofish (토크) 23:02, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- PS: 그 보석을 찾았어.\ 22:58, 2019년 2월 19일(UTC)
- TY! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)
- Welp, MjolnirPants, 내가 협력 편집 파트너들과 함께 협력적인 작업 환경에 대해 가졌을지도 모를 모든 희망은 오래 전에 사라졌다.비록 은유법은 꽤 매력적이지만.반면에, 루치우스폭스, 당신은 위키피디아에서 다음과 같이 말한 적이 있다.일반 위키백과 또는 (어떠한 경우에도) 본문을 작성하지 마십시오.미끼를 물지 말라고?내가 당신들 중 하나였다면, 나는 아마도 상대방의 생각에 감사하고 그냥 흘려보냈을 것이다.ANI에 도착하기 전에, 하지만 여기 우리가 있다.여기서 SMDH라고 말하는 것 말고는 어떤 종류의 행정 조치도 지지할 수 없을 것 같아. 로도덴드라이트가 한 말.DLOhcierkim (대화) 22:59, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 아, 나는 항상 예의 바른 사람들에게 예의 바르게 대하는데, 심지어 그들이 프린지 POV 푸셔처럼 보일 때도 그렇다.루치우스의 잘난 체하는 거들먹거림과 별로 굴하지 않는 모욕과 같은 헛소리야. 내 입장에서 바보 같은 짓에 자신을 빌려주는 거지.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.23:04, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 2:1로 비쇼넨보다 더 나은 확률을 주겠다. 사용자:히든 템포.일부러 그의 "오래된 적들" 중 하나를 공격적 헛소리로 자극하려고 한다.자원봉사 마렉(토크) 23:06, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 내기를 받지 않을 것이다.나는 나쁜 일을 보면 안다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.23:08, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[ 하라
- Hidden Tempo가 카멜레온이기 때문에 도구가 없으면 너무 위험하다.O3000 (토크) 23:20, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- D'Souza 토크 페이지에는 "힐러리가 기밀 이메일을 공유하고 캐버노 지명자를 파괴하려다 저지른 반역"이라는 루키우스폭스xx의 보석이 있다.내가 그것을 정확히 읽으면 그는 힐러리 클린턴이 캐버노 지명자를 무너뜨리려고 노력함으로써 반역을 저질렀다고 생각한다.HT든 아니든 트롤이든 WP의 극단적인 경우든 간에 그 짧은 문구에 담긴 바보 같은 주장들이 너무 많다.역량.자원봉사 마렉(토크) 23:35, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- Tsk, tsk.그러나 민주주의는 힐러리와 캐버노 둘 다에 대해 발언권을 가지고 있었다.승자들은 패배자들을 "아이돌"이라고 부르지 않고, 그럴 필요도 없다.이제 우리 둘 다 2센트를 받았으니, 네가 나에 대한 몇 개의 게시물에서 내 의견에 정말 집착하고 있는 것 같구나. 이제 네가 고쳐주었으니까 이 실에서 비누상자를 빼낼 수 있겠니?;) 이 실의 장사에 대해서는 - 히든 템포에 대해 읽은 적이 있다.모든 PTSD와 투영법은 좀 더 말이 된다.그가 카멜레온이라면 코끼리는 지나치게 큰 설치류다.분명히 없는 편집자에게 너무 많은 공을 들이지 마라.네가 참았어야 할 모든 일들에 대해, 만약 나에 대한 당신의 미묘한 음모가 아니었다면, 내 감정이입이 있었을 것이다.목표 3000l, 나는 하원의원들을 들을 것이다.다른 모든 사람들.물론 그 내기는 내가 맡을게.지금쯤 라스베가스가 됐으면 좋았을 텐데일단 말이 되네, 의원님들내 생각에 심지어 깨진 기록도 하루에 한 번씩은 시계가 맞을 수 있을 것 같아.나는 그것이 두 번이라는 것을 안다. 그리고 나는 다른 파괴적인 편집자들에 의해 가능하게 된 당신의 농담과 산만함에 대한 느낌을 가지고 있다. 그것이 당신의 행동의 실수를 당신 자신의 "의리" 방식으로 인정하는 방법이다.너의 톤의 변화, h-ming과 h-wawing의 불안감은 단지 단어 아래 간신히 그것을 준다.그래서 나는 2가 되는 것 같아.만약 그것이 명확하고 고의적으로 파괴적인 행동-주변 나쁜 농담, 산만함, 그리고 무엇에 관한 것-을 피하는 데 필요한 전부라면, 내 의무가 이 비관리할 수 없는 혼란에 질서를 가져다 주는 한, 그 시간은 공식적으로 끝났다.그런 식의 인격적이고 성적 욕설적인 욕설에는 '의리'도 '조키'도 없다.더 약한 말로 구차한 변명.아마도 세계의 다른 나라들과 같은 위키피디아가 바닥을 치고 있는 것 같다.다행히도 나는 피부가 두껍지만, 나를 이런 히데템포 같은 사람과 비교한 것을 고백하지만 약간 쏘았다.이 줄의 결과와 상관없이, 여러분, 다음 번에는 좀 더 가볍게 생각해 보십시오.그래줄래?LoL 혈압에 감사드리며루시우스폭스 (대화) 23:48, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
마감 제안
비장 발작과 눈부시게 빛나는 재봉사가 쓰러지고, 우리의 혈압에 알 수 없는 영향을 끼치면서, 토론이 기본 파스타 밀기로 변질되었으니, 이제 우리는 (그들이 누구일지라도) 움직일 준비가 되어 있는 것처럼 보이는 희생자와 승리자로서 더 이상의 조치를 취하지 않고 마무리할 수 있을 것이다.그리고 우리 모두 그냥 "조명"하지 않을까?
- 제안자 Dlohcierkim(토크) 00:04, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 나는 왜 OP가 제안서에 투표하도록 허용되는지 정말 모르겠다.IMHO, 그리고 우리가 이미 탈옥과 명예훼손에 대한 OP의 의견을 알고 있듯이, 투표는 최소한 중립적인 사람들에게만 국한되어야 한다.푸도. 친절하게.막대기를 떨어뜨리고 말 주검 Dlohcierkim (talk) 01:07, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 솔직히 먼저 루시우스가 명백한 양말처럼 막힌 것을 보고 싶다.또는 마찬가지로 분명한 WP를 위해:여기 말고 포브 푸싱.내 말은, 우린 이미 여기 있잖아, 맞지?ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP 반대:우리가 정책 시행을 완전히 중단하지 않는 한, Civility 정책은 지금까지 있었던 가장 끔찍한 위반들 중 하나에 비추어 시행될 필요가 있다.다시 한번 RfC를 참조한다. --Pudeo (토크) 00:26, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- Pudeo에게 나를 차단하려는 캠페인은 멋지지 않다고 관리자가 설명해 줄 수 있을까?특히 사실을 고든의 매듭으로 꼬아야 할 때는 더욱 그렇다.이 스레드는 내 편집 요약보다 훨씬 더 혼란스러웠다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.00:34, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 가까이서 부메랑으로 여기 진흙처럼 선명하고, 발길질도 더 이상 선명하지 않아.-——SerialNumber54129 00:29, 2019년 2월 20일(UTC)[
- 분명한 양말이 막혔으니, 우리는 그렇게 쉽게 얻어맞지 않도록 조금 더 노력해야 한다.MJP의 "젠장, 이 빌어먹을 놈아" 틱이 늙어가고 있지만, 그가 분명히 양말에 미혹되지 않을 때까지 뭔가 조치를 취해야 할 것 같아. --Floquenbeam (토크) 00:33, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 야, 누가 그걸 봤지?DLOhcierkim (talk) 01:09, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
제안: MjolnirPants에 대한 보호 차단
WP에 따라 이 문제를 종결하는 방법:감독 및 스트라이샌드 효과. MjolnirPants와 그들의 대체 계정 MPants는 이 논의가 진행되는 동안 감시 가능한 자료를 게시하기 위해 무기한 차단된다.이 블록은 관리자로서 나의 역량에 있으며 이 논의의 합의를 반영하기 위한 것이 아니다.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 16:36, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
(사용자에게 외설적인 것에 대한 투표가 아래에서 진행 중인 것이 분명하기 때문에 나는 이 섹션의 이름을 "개설된 팬츠"로 바꾸었다. 이사 (토크) 16:06, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 최근 소식은 MJP의 무차단 요청을 거절했다는 것이다. MJP의 요청은 충분히 다루지 않았기 때문이다.음, 너도 그 구절을 알잖아.행정관님들, 제 감소가 공정했다고 생각하시는지 가서 보십시오.나는 Cullen328보다 MJP와 같은 편집자를 차단하는 것을 더 좋아하지 않는다. 확실히; 나는 블록을 배치하지 않았을 것이다. 하지만 Cullen은 또한 그가 나보다 더 용감하기 때문에 그렇게 했을 것이다.나는 아마도 심각한 방해받지 않는 요청을 받아들였을 것이다. 아마도 한 사람이 올 것이고, 그러면 내가 누군가 그것을 받아들여야 한다.하지만 중요한 것은 (이것 바로 위의 플로켄빔의 논평도 참조)-- 나는 정말로 MP가 미끼가 되었다고 생각하지 않으며, 행정관/ANI의 도움으로 이 일이 더 일찍 처리되었을지도 모른다고 생각한다. 그러면 루치우스는 (그가 누구던 간에) 더 일찍 처리되었을 것이다.드레이미스 (대화) 05:23, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 좋은 방도를 위해 나도 루치우스폭스로부터 (더 긴) 막힘없는 요청을 거절했다.드레이미스 (대화) 05:32, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
나는 정말로 MP가 미끼가 되었다고 생각하지 않는다...
- 정말? 오, 하느님의 사랑을 위하여.그는 미끼를 받았을 뿐만 아니라, 미끼는 푸도에게 도움을 받아 방조했다. --Calton Talk 08:50, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
블록과 블록 해제 요청의 거절에 모두 동의한다고 말해야 한다.다른 사람들과 마찬가지로, 나는 미끼가 보이지 않는다.Dinesh D'Souza의 제안은 어리석었지만, "비자유주의, 객관적(읽기: 중립적)"과 같은 사소한 인신공격도 있었지만, 만약 사람들이 그렇게 폭발하지 않고 이런 사소한 것들을 용납할 수 없다면, 나는 미국 정치 주제 영역, 또는 정말로 어떤 정치 주제 영역도 그들에게는 맞지 않는다고 생각한다.마찬가지로 WP:DTTR은 만약 누군가가 당신을 한번만 본떠 만든다면, 당신은 템플리트링에 비례하지 않게 심각하게 폭발할 수 있다는 것을 의미하지 않는다.
나는 Dinesh D'Souza에서의 제안이 어떤 식으로든 어리석다고 생각하지 않는다. 또는 그렇게 부풀려지는 것에 대한 정당성을 고려하지 않는다.우선, 제안들이 어리석었을지 모르지만, 그들은 MJP를 공격하려는 의도는 없었다. 또는 내가 모르는 어떤 배경이 있다면, MJP는 동정심을 갖고 있는 동안 그러한 어리석은 제안들을 매우 개인적으로 받아들이지만, 가장 좋은 해결책은 그들에게 너무 많은 의미가 있을 때 그 기사로부터 떨어져 있는 것이다.어리석은 제안을 다루는 비개인적인 측면은 그런 식으로 반응하는 것에 대한 명분이 아니다.
궁극적으로 다른 사람이 한 말을 패러프레이징하는 것은 현재 미국 정치계에 많은 문제가 있지만 MJP와 같은 논평은 상황을 전혀 돕지 않고 오히려 악화시키고 있다.
(그리고 솔직히 이런 것들을 다루는 방식에 편견이 있다고 생각한다.나는 만약 인도인이나 파키스탄인, 크로아티아인, 세르비아인 또는 보스니아인이 기본적으로 같은 것에 반응하여 원격으로 유사한 의견을 남겼다면, 즉 완전히 어리석은 제안을 한 다음, 그들이 비 '다른 쪽' 편집자의 의견을 원한다고 말했을 때(읽기 중립), 그리고 나서 공손함 경고가 있는 템플리트가 되었을 때, 그들은 다시 말을 하지 않았을 것이라는 느낌을 받는다.31시간만큼 관대한 블록을 피했다.)
나는 Pudeo가 이 영화에서 어떤 역할을 했는지 잘 모르겠다.그들은 Talk에서 어떠한 언급도 하지 않은 것 같다.Dinesh D'Souza 또는 User Talk에서 최근 발표한 내용:MjolnirPants.그들은 이 실에 코멘트를 넣거나, 혹은 더 정확하게 이 서브스레드를 열었지만, 이 실에 코멘트의 옳고 그름이 무엇이든 간에, 그들은 분명히 이 실이 시작된 이유의 일부인 코멘트를 하는 MjolnirPants의 원인이 아니다.므졸니르팬츠가 시간여행자가 아니라면, 미국이 트럼프를 제거하면 어떤 경우에 우리에게 말해줄 수 있을까.
추신: 확실하지 않은 경우, 내 생각에는 이 블록이 MJP가 이미 이 스레드의 시작에서 제기했던 것, 특히 편집 요약에서 제기했던 것에서부터 전체 스레드가 시작되기 전에 정당화되었다는 것이다.그러므로 실 자체에 담긴 논평은 어떤 미끼적인 제안과도 크게 무관하며 나는 그것을 대충 훑어보았을 뿐이다.
- 나는 그 블록을 지지하는 바지의 토크 페이지에 메모를 남겼다.나는 그가 이 문제에 대해 어디서 왔는지 정확히 이해하고 있으며, ARBAP 기사를 계속 점검하려고 애쓰면서 생기는 좌절감을 이해한다. 그러나 나는 상대방이 어떤 불쾌한 신체 부위에 사포를 삽입하는 것을 제안하는 것이 어떤 식으로든 주도적이거나 분쟁 해결에 도움이 된다는 것을 도저히 이해할 수 없다.내가 만약 어떤 것에 연결해야 한다면 그것은 WP일 것이다.노테라피 - "젠장, 씨발, 씨발..."라고 말할 수는 없다. 다음은 누구지?"라고 말하며 "적절한 카타르시스의 반응"이라는 비난을 받을 것으로 예상하지 않는다.리치333 14(cont):36, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 나는 또한 이 블록을 지지하며 (그들이 그 부분을 얻은 이후 처음이 아니다) 콜런이 기꺼이 개입하여 우리의 기준 행동 표준을 시행하는 데 필요한 행정 조치를 취하게 된 것에 대해 매우 감사하다.그리고 나는 이 모든 것이 Mjolnir가 여기서 미끼를 입었다고 생각하는 사람으로서 혹은 최소한으로, 상대방의 행동은 그런 건방진 태도를 보였으며, 그들 자신의 인신공격에 대한 자기 인식 부족을 너무 많이 가지고 있었기 때문에, 하원의원은 그러한 논평들을 트롤링과 기능적으로 동일한 것으로 취급할 수 있는 그들의 권리 내에 충분히 있었다.그들의 본래의 의도가 덜 함축되어졌다.정말로 루치우스에 대한 ANI를 여는 것을 생각하고 있었는데, 그들이 이미 이곳에서 자기들 것을 열고 어뢰를 발사하여 그 수고를 덜어주었다는 것을 알아차렸다.그러나 Mjolnir의 대응은 비록 이것이 장기간의 괴롭힘이고 표현된 괴롭힘이었더라도 이 프로젝트에서 용인할 수 있는 어떤 것도 훨씬 지나쳐 있었다.
- 어렸을 때 나는 간단한 격언을 배웠다(사실, 므골니르가 여기서 키우는 것은 너무 간단하지만, 그럼에도 불구하고 그가 이 프로젝트에서 갈등을 어떻게 다루는지 어느 정도 조정하지 않으면 같은 일이 다시 일어날 것 같은 이유의 핵심을 나타낸다). 두 가지 잘못이다.우를 범하지 않다MP가 이러한 행동에 대항 PA로 대응하는 것은 적절하지 않았을 뿐만 아니라, 이 경우 그의 반응은 그가 응답한 논평보다 훨씬 더 좋은 질서와 우리의 행동 기준을 위반하는 것이었다.폭력적인 성적 이미지(또는 그 문제에 있어서 개인적인 논쟁의 맥락에서 다른 사용자를 향한 일련의 저속함)는 결코 해결책이 아니며 여기서 결코 무시되지 않을 것이다.그런 말을 하면서 성취하는 것은 트롤의 혼란에 동화되는 것뿐이다.단도직입적으로, 만약 무작위 전략 템플릿이 누군가로부터 그 반응을 이끌어내기 위해 필요한 전부라면, 그들은 그들의 감정 기강을 약 1만 퍼센트의 비율로 성장시키고 강화시킬 필요가 있다. 왜냐하면 그 상황에 대한 반응은 너무 비할 바가 아니었기 때문이다.대부분의 사용자들은 눈을 굴리고 그 댓글을 무시했을 것이고, 아마도 그들의 토크 페이지에서 댓글 없이 삭제했을 것이다.물론 Mjolnir는 그렇게 할 필요가 없지만, 그의 대응은 그가 분명히 알고 있는 것처럼 성적으로 위협적인 언어의 핵 공격과는 거리가 멀어야 한다.
- 사실 MP를 위한 단기 차단에 대해 마지못해 지지의 목소리를 내야 할 뿐만 아니라, 이것이 (Bruja를 시작하는 침략자가 아닌 곳에서도) 개인 분쟁에서 볼륨을 줄여달라고 공동체가 요구한 첫 사례인 만큼, 앞으로 비슷한 톤의 어떤 것이라도 보인다면 공동체는 그렇게 할 수밖에 없을 것이라고 생각한다.보다 실질적이고 장기적인 대응을 고려하다나는 이것을 열정 없이 말한다. MP가 분명히 WP를 다루고 있었기 때문이다.NOTHERE 편집자, 그리고 그는 백과사전에 비현실적인 기고를 전달하기 때문이다.그러나 우리가 우리의 기본 행동 표준을 시행하지 않을 때 발생하는 프로젝트에 드는 비용은 항상 편집자 한 사람의 기여를 왜소하게 만들 것이다.Mjolnir가 자신에게 조정을 요청해 온 거의 모든 반응(여기서나 그의 토크페이지에서나)이 그의 작품에 대한 감사를 표현하는 주의사항과 함께 온다는 것을 알 수 있기를 바라며, 따라서 그는 이것이 트롤의 목표가 될 수 있었던 것을 외부에서 수용하는 독지가 아니라는 것을 이해할 수 있을 것이다.et (공동체의 눈으로 그를 내려다보며), 오히려 예의와 혼란에 대한 우리의 기준을 훼손하지 않고 동료의 귀중한 기여를 보존하려는 노력.21:03, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 우리가 다시 여기에 있는 한, 나는 먼지가 가라앉기를 기다렸다가 바지에 RfC를 열려고 했다.그래서 나는 그의 주장을 지지하고 그에게 우리가 알고 있는 문제 행동을 분명히 멈추라고 충고해 줄 것을 부탁한다.앞으로, 그것은 멈출 필요가 있다.미끼든 아니든.폭력적인 성적 이미지는 바로 나온다. 그것이 재발한다면 그것은 즉시 차단될 것이다.그는 상황을 악화시키지 않는 방식으로 무시하거나 반응하는 법을 배워야 하고, 충동 조절이 서툰 핫헤드처럼 보이게 해야 한다.그리고, 그래, 난 그가 여기서 하는 대부분의 일을 좋아하지만, 그는 순 부정적이 되고 있어.DLOhcierkim(대화) 21:15, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라
- dlohcierkim (대화) 03:21, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 나는 이 시점에서 변명이 너무 지나치다고 생각한다.이 특정 이슈의 첫 번째 블록.DLOhcierkim (대화) 03:23, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- MJP에 반대하는 것은 아니지만 개인적으로 나는 그 블록을 지지한다. 누군가에게 꺼져라고 말하는 것과 그가 무엇을 했는지 말하는 것은 다른 것이다. 확실히 나는 이상한 경우에 누군가에게 "F Off 또는 심지어 "Go F Yourself"라고 말하지만 IMHO는 그의 논평에 비하면 아무것도 아니다.–Davey2010Talk 22:05, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 여기서 "다시 열린 팬츠"가 가장 적절한 단어 선택이 아니라고 생각하는 사람은 나뿐일까?어쨌든, 위에서 아래로 이 ANI 실을 돌아보면, 나는 블록이 발생하기 전에 그 선을 따라 상당히 많은 귀뚜라미가 지나간 후, 블록에 대한 지지와 함께 쌓여가는 모든 것에 충격을 받는다.그래, 다른 사람이 첫발을 내디딘 후에 그것에 동의하는 것은 매우 용기 있는 일이다.사실 뒤늦게나마 블록이 정당했다고 생각하지만, 여전히. --Tryptofish (토크) 23:51, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- TBH, 불이 꺼진 줄 알고 너무 빨리 닫기를 권했는데, 다시 닫았다가 다시 닫았다가 다시 닫았다.누군가가 차단된 상태에서 우리가 그 문제를 지나치도록 너무 노력한 것은 내 잘못이었다.다 무너졌지?이제 둘 다 막혔다.이제 막혔으니 컬런의 말이 옳았다.그리고 이것이 다시 열렸으니, 우리는 지금 당장 그 행위에 대처하는 것이 좋겠다.DLOhcierkim (talk) 00:01, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 아이러니하게도, 그리고 내 방어로:Tryptofish 옵션 2 DLOhcierkim (talk) 00:30, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ ]을 하고 있었다
- 그리고 당신의 추가 변론에서는 우리 둘 다 옳았다. --Tryptofish (토크) 00:43, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 블록 이후 대부분의 논평은 이미 토론이 종결된 것으로 보아 하원의원들을 막지 않고 기꺼이 문제를 해결하려 했던 초기 (그리고 매우 간략한) 토론에 불참한 관리자일 뿐만 아니라 (위 표현된 정서로 볼 때) 가능성이 있다.그러나 컬렌이 블록 MP를 하고 Mjolnir로부터 컬렌이 선을 벗어났다는 반응을 얻었을 때/"똥을 튀겨라"는 반응을 얻었을 때/그 바로 그 관리들은 결국 그 블록은 Mjolnir 자신 이외에는 아무도 책임지지 않는다는 것을 (민사적이면서도 무뚝뚝뚝하게) 지적하지 않을 수 없었다.그 모든 것이 내게는 상당히 과장되고, 선의로 보이며, 완벽하게 타당해 보인다. 그리고 나는 그 사용자들 중 많은 사람들이 (MP의 토크 페이지에 있는 당신 자신처럼) 그의 최선의 관심사를 염두에 두고 있으며, 그가 단지 당혹감을 느끼기 보다는, 이것으로부터 올바른 교훈을 빼앗아 가도록 확실히 하려고 노력하고 있다고 생각한다.그렇긴 하지만, 내가 그가 가장 주의 깊게 들었으면 하는 메시지는 특히, 최소한의 자격이 있는 편집자들을 대할 때에도 유보적/민간적 접근법을 사용함으로써 얻을 수 있는 실질적인 이익에 관한 것이다.거기서 지적한 바와 같이, 도발 앞에서 냉정함을 유지하는 이점을 이해하기 위해 성자가 될 필요는 없다.제설 00:12, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 승인 블록 및 편집자가 이 블록의 이유를 직접 설명하지 않는 경우(블록 해제 요청에서 볼 수 없는 경우), 중단을 방지하기 위해 블록을 무한정 확장하십시오.나는 그의 유형들을 많이 보아왔고 개인적인 차원에서 그의 장황한 점을 좋아한다; 그러나 쓰레기는 쓰레기일 뿐이고 소리내어 차단되어야 한다.정말 유치한 행동이다.루르데스 00:24, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 정말 끔찍한 생각이다. --Tryptofish (토크) 00:30, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그렇다, 우리가 ANI에서 이 편집자를 토론하는 데 우리 지역 사회의 노력을 낭비하는 횟수는 정말 끔찍하다.그리고 영화 대사에 대한 암시가 그의 잘못된 유머의 이유인 것은 유치하다.이 편집자는 우리가 학대를 중단하기로 약속해야 할 프로젝트에 긴 미래가 없다.편집자의 임기가 마침내 여기서 끝나게 되면, 나는 아마도 당신에게 전화를 걸어 나의 행복한 조의를 표할 것이다.이런 편집자들은 그저 환영받지 못한다.루르데스 00:35, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 정말 끔찍한 생각이다. --Tryptofish (토크) 00:30, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 메타휴머: "팬츠 다시 열었어?"지퍼 고장 났어? — SMcCandlish lish 😼 00:28, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 하품. 좋은 소식은 의원들이 양말을 노출했다는 것이다.나쁜 소식은 MP가 너무 지나쳤다는 것이다.나는 그의 존재를 진심으로 즐기고 소중하게 여기는 만큼 그의 짧은 블록을 지지한다.하지만, 우리는 시간 싱크를 위해 시간 싱크를 쌓고 있다.O3000 (토크) 01:17, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 편집자가 블록에 대한 이유를 설명할 때까지 지지 및 지지 확장을 승인하십시오.이는 장기적인 행동 패턴으로, 현재의 블록은 지속적인 파괴적 행동을 방지한다는 목표를 달성하지 못하고 있다.나는 2018년 3월에 이 사용자에게 다음과 같이 경고했다. "협상이
불가능
한 정책의시행 부족
과 우리의일반적으로 관대한 시민권 집행
을 혼동하지마십시오.
우리가 같이 게임을 할 것 같은 인상을 받고 있다면 틀렸다.
당신은 심각한 행동 문제를 일으켰고, 그것이 계속된다면 내가 당신을 차단할 것이다.…
현재 상태로는, 당신의 행동은 근본적으로 이 프로젝트의 협력적 성격과 양립할 수 없으며, 나는 그것에 대해 당신과 논쟁하는데 시간을 낭비하지 않을 것이다.
자발적으로 뭔가 해야 할 필요가 있거나 아니면 이 일로 인해 좋은 지위를 잃게 될 것이다.
이런 전투력은 결코 용납
되지 않을것이다.(
주:이것은 내가 자발적으로 문제를 해결하려는 매우 존경스럽고 우호적인 메시지를 그들에게 남긴 후였다.)그들은 여기 있고, 차단되어 있으며, 여전히 그 어느 것도 심각하게 받아들이지 않고 있다.~스왑~ {talk} 03:12, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ - 나는 위의 무리에 동의해야 한다. 고문이나 성폭행을 언급하는 성난 편집자를 사용할 핑계는 없다. 나는 일부 편집자들이 양말 때문에 좌절하는 것이 모든 욕설의 무료 이용권을 준다고 생각하는 것에 매우 실망한다.토네이도 추적자 (대화) 03:27, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 변명의 반대, 현재의 봉쇄에 반대하라.백과사전이 쓰여져야 하는데, 여기 몇몇 사람들은 여기에 완전히 (과잉) 투자를 한 것 같다.———SerialNumber54129 12:21, 2019년 2월 21일(UTC)[
- 번호 54129에 따라 서약 반대, 전류 블록 반대.이 쓰레기 더미는 미쳤어.니흘러스 12:33, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 니흘루스당 반대하라.∯WBGconverse 14:12, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 각 군집마다 서포트 서포터블럭.나는 MjolnirPants, 특히 [17]과 [18]과 몇 번 부딪쳤다.최근의 이 토론은 그의 행동이 결코 나아질 것 같지 않다는 나의 견해를 강화시켜 줄 뿐이다.그는 이미 여러 차례 경고를 받았지만, UNCIVAL 전투 행동을 계속했다.심지어 그가 서투른 행동을 하는 것을 막은 관리자들에게도 이런 일이 일어나고 있다!"내 말은, 진지하게. 네가 나타나서 조니 씨발 법처럼 행동하기로 결심하기 전까지 ANI 실도 끝났고 트롤도 막혔고 모든 게 가라앉고 있었어 넌 똥을 막는 게 아니야. 넌 더 많이 시작하고 있어." 그리고 "그건 여기서 트롤을 되돌리는 나와 ANI 실을 시작하는 트롤 사이에 만들어진 거야. 하지만 이제 네가 가져온 이 새로운 일을 벌주기로 결정해서 처리해야 해."이 패턴은 매우 일관적이며 WP를 명백히 위반하면서 수년간 지속되어 왔다.마지막 5개 편집 모두 WP를 위반함:Civil은 종종 여러 가지 근거로 한다.「이런, 이 친구야, 그 안에 무엇이 들어있는지 맨스플레인을 결정하기 전에 그 기사를 훑어보기도 했니?」 「내가 한 말이 당신의 이의에 대해 직접적으로 어떻게 대처하는지 이해할 수 없다면, 당신은 이 토론에 참여할 능력이 없다」라고 말했다.사용자들은 수년에 걸쳐 너무나 많은 다른 정책들을 위반하여 반복적으로 관용을 베풀어주는 것 같다.델레트 (대화) 14:29, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 이미 지나치게 개인화된 문제를 개인화하다니 부끄러운 줄 알아라, 멍청이.그런 말들이 어떤 식으로든 도움이 된다고 생각한다면...-——SerialNumber54129
- 와우. 성폭력보다 무성의한 사과론자들을 비난하는 일반화된 논평에 더 불쾌하다고 상상해봐.나는 두 사람 모두 내 사용자 페이지 하단에 있는 인용구를 참조할 것을 요청한다. 어떤 행동이 "선외"인지에 대한 나의 입장을 위해서.~스왑~{talk} 15:53, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 고맙네, 스럼. 난 아무데도 언급되지 않았어.그러나 나는 당신이 바로 그 주제에 대해 토론하는 도중에 편집자들에게 그늘을 드리우는 어리석음을 보지 못한다는 점에 주목한다; 실제로 그들이 또한 "성폭력"의 사과론자라는 제안으로 그것을 두 배로 늘리는 것은 개선된 것이 아니다.———SerialNumber54129 16:04, 2019년 2월 21일(UTC)[
- 위에서 보듯이 델레트가 연계한 AN3 보고서에서 나는 하원의원들에게 일을 그냥 내버려두고 조금 뒤로 돌리라고 말했다.그의 토크 페이지에서 나는 그에게 보복하고 싶은 충동을 억제하라고 충고했다.그러나 나는 그를 그 프로젝트에서 내쫓는 것은 완전히 불균형적인 대응이라고 생각한다. 그리고 무엇이 그 폭발을 야기시켰는지에 대한 충분한 생각이 애초에 없었다.많은 사람들이 틀릴 수도 있고, 정도가 다를 수도 있다.리치333 16(cont):07, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 무심코 성폭력을 유발하는 것처럼 비열한 행동을 옹호하는 편집자들을 비판하는 단순하고 일반적인 논평에 대해 왜 그렇게 방어적인지 모르겠다.그런 행동에 항의하는 것은 적어도 정책적 관점에서도 아니고 도덕성의 기본 기준에서도 아니라고 하는 것은 사실 모욕적인 일이다.솔직히, 당신이 극악무도한 독성과 미개한 행동 사이에 동등성을 보이는 것과 단순히 그런 행동을 비판하는 것 사이에 동등성을 보인다는 것은 약간 우려되는 일이다.나는 항상 네가 그것보다 더 합리적이라고 생각했었다.~스왑~ {talk} 16:30, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 고맙네, 스럼. 난 아무데도 언급되지 않았어.그러나 나는 당신이 바로 그 주제에 대해 토론하는 도중에 편집자들에게 그늘을 드리우는 어리석음을 보지 못한다는 점에 주목한다; 실제로 그들이 또한 "성폭력"의 사과론자라는 제안으로 그것을 두 배로 늘리는 것은 개선된 것이 아니다.———SerialNumber54129 16:04, 2019년 2월 21일(UTC)[
- 와우. 성폭력보다 무성의한 사과론자들을 비난하는 일반화된 논평에 더 불쾌하다고 상상해봐.나는 두 사람 모두 내 사용자 페이지 하단에 있는 인용구를 참조할 것을 요청한다. 어떤 행동이 "선외"인지에 대한 나의 입장을 위해서.~스왑~{talk} 15:53, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나의 이전 논평에서 명백하지 않다면 변명을 지지하라.2018년 10월 ANI 스레드는 이미 그가 전화하기로 약속했지만 하지 않았던 놀라운 인신공격의 광범위한 컬렉션을 가지고 있었다.그 적대적인 태도는 그의 토크 페이지 편집 고지를 통해 잘 이해된다.누구도 이렇게 학대하는 사람을 상대해서는 안 된다.위키백과에서 거의 찾아볼 수 없는 폭력적인 성적 이미지에도 불구하고 MJP는 이 ANI 실에서 어떠한 잘못된 행위도 인정하지 않았고, 대신 짧은 블록을 놓은 관리자를 공격했다.이런 태도와 바꾸지 않는 것은 백과사전을 만드는 것과 양립할 수 없다. --Pudeo (토크) 15:10, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 델레트당 지지 선언 블록.이것은 일회성 사건도 아니고 일련의 사건도 아니다.WP:BATtleground 행위의 장기적인 패턴이다.
- MJP의 난독성이 너무 강해서 편집통지서까지 존재한다는 점에 유의하십시오. WP:삭제/사용자 대화에서 삭제해야 할 사항:MjolnirPants/Editnotice, 지난해 더 폭언 편집공고가 삭제된 후. --BrownHairGirl (talk) • (contracts) 15:24, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 이 블록에 대한 진짜 의견은 없고, 완전히 불균형한 것처럼 변명에 반대하라.가이 (도움말!) 15:22, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 이 때 어떤 블록도 반대하십시오. 의원님들 신발을 신고 1마일만 걸어주십시오.직접 차단된 것은 아니지만 동네 도서관이 장기간 차단돼 로그인이 꺼려 백과사전을 한 블록으로 개선하지 못하게 됐다.응, 그것 때문에 화가 났고 거절당한 짜증나는 언블록 요청서를 써서 더 화가 났어.약간의 감정이입은 먼 길을 간다.리치333(talk)(cont) 15:55, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 리치, 당신은 마치 MJP가 어떤 기술적 문제로 막혀서 충격을 받은 것처럼 상황을 묘사하고 있다.
이는 장기전투 접근법의 확대라는 것이 현실이다.그렇다, 물론 나는 분노 관리를 개선해야 하는 MJP의 분명한 필요성에 공감하지만, 그것이 en.wp가 지역사회 건강을 위해 유지되어야 할 정책을 시행하고 있다는 사실을 바꾸지는 않는다.MJP가 그토록 오랫동안 저항해 온 분노관리 능력을 키워주길 바라는 마음에서 이런 조직적인 핵심정책 위반을 계속 탐닉할 수는 없다. --브라운헤어드걸(토크) • (공모) 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC) 16:19, 21 (
- 리치, 당신은 마치 MJP가 어떤 기술적 문제로 막혀서 충격을 받은 것처럼 상황을 묘사하고 있다.
- 이것이 어떻게 폭발했는지 예를 들어보자.표면적으로 WP를 충족시키는 것처럼 보일 수 있는 다음 문구를 고려하십시오.시민적이지만 상당히 불쾌하다: "나는 진심으로 백인이 흑인보다 더 큰 지적 능력을 갖출 수 있도록 생물학적으로 갖춰져 있다는 강력한 과학적 증거가 있다고 믿는다. 예를 들어 다음과 같은 인용구를 고려하십시오. [a][b][c]."아니면 "트위터에 눈에 띄는 반브렉시트 정서가 나타난 것 같다. 나만 그런 거야, 아니면 다른 사람이 이걸 받는 거야? 남은 투표자들은 민주적인 결과를 받아들이고 성가신 행동을 그만둬야 한다. 영국은 백인 국가고 우리는 기독교인이다. 노딜!"그것들은 실제적인 논평이 아니라 예시지만, 내가 소셜 미디어에서 본 실제적인 것들을 바탕으로 하고 있다.나는 내 요점이 옳다고 생각한다 - 우리는 정말로 침착하고 신중하게 근본적인 상황을 볼 필요가 있다.리치333 16(cont):36, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 블록을 지지하되 Dlohcierekim에 의한 변명은 반대한다.GABgab 15:58, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 지지 변명을 하자. 이것이 그의 교훈[19]을 배운 예라면, 진지하게?슬레이터스테븐 (대화) 16:08, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 너의 논평은 그가 말하고자 하는 요점을 증명하는 것이다.니흘루스 16:14, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 어떻게, 그 게시물은 특정 사용자와 이름 없는 사용자 모두에게 엄청난 PA이다. (또한 외출, 그 모든 외부 링크들은 문제가 될 만한 어떤 편집도 보여주지 않고 있으며, 사용자가 위키에서 꺼낸 것은 관련이 없다.)만약 그가 POV 푸셔들을 다룰 인내심이 없다면, 이것은 사라지지 않을 것이다.그래서 다음 번에 그가 "인내심을 갖지 말라"고 결심할 때 우리는 다시 이 모든 서커스를 철저히 할 것이며, 우리는 그것을 방지하는 끈덕진 노력을 할 것이다.한 게시물에 얼마나 많은 위반사항을 주입할 수 있는가? 그것은 고의적으로 보인다.슬레이터스테븐 (대화) 16:23, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- FFS 나는 그 외부 링크를 따르지 않았다. 만약 그것이 외출이라면, 그것은 반드시 필요하며 변명이 필요하고 그 외향적인 사람들은 revdel을 필요로 한다.DLOhcierkim(대화) 16:31, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 어떻게, 그 게시물은 특정 사용자와 이름 없는 사용자 모두에게 엄청난 PA이다. (또한 외출, 그 모든 외부 링크들은 문제가 될 만한 어떤 편집도 보여주지 않고 있으며, 사용자가 위키에서 꺼낸 것은 관련이 없다.)만약 그가 POV 푸셔들을 다룰 인내심이 없다면, 이것은 사라지지 않을 것이다.그래서 다음 번에 그가 "인내심을 갖지 말라"고 결심할 때 우리는 다시 이 모든 서커스를 철저히 할 것이며, 우리는 그것을 방지하는 끈덕진 노력을 할 것이다.한 게시물에 얼마나 많은 위반사항을 주입할 수 있는가? 그것은 고의적으로 보인다.슬레이터스테븐 (대화) 16:23, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- MJP의 논평은 충격적일 정도로 도움이 되지 않았다/무색하게/무색하게 했다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 16:15, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 반대는 공격의 도를 넘어선다.PackMecEng (토크) 16:20, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 위아래에 있는 특정 논평에서 객관적 판단을 하기에는 나 자신이 포함된 이 일에 모든 사람이 너무 감정적으로 관여했다는 것이 분명하므로(아래 참조) 추가 조치에 반대하십시오.그러나 MjolnirPants는 이것을 그들의 초최종적 경고, 보스 모드 보너스 라운드로 고려해야 한다. 간단히 말해서, 이와 같은 또 다른 사건이 일어나면 당신은 사라질 것이고, 그런 일이 일어나지 않게 하는 것은 전적으로 당신에게 달려 있다.괴롭힘을 당하는 경우 WP:DWH, 그리고 도움을 요청하라.(갈등 편집) 나는 또한 여기 여전히 사용자 페이지에 스와스티카를 표시하는 편집자들이 너무 많다고 생각한다.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 16:20, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 지지부진하다 13,500개의 토크와 WP에 비해 몇 천개의 기사 편집은 논쟁의 여지가 많다.새는 솥(토크) 16:24, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 내가 위에서 나의 의견을 쓰고 있는 동안, MjolnirPants는 그들의 토크 페이지에 감시가 필요한 엄청나게 부적절한 것들을 많이 썼고, 나는 그것들을 무한정 차단했다.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 16:27, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 여러 사람이 어떤 문제를 지나치게 개인화하고, 끊임없이 누군가에게 오소리를 하고, 우스꽝스럽고 부당한 블록을 만들고, 사용자가 돌아오기도 전에 계속 쌓일 때 일어나는 일은 우스운 일이다.이 모든 것이 수치스럽다.니흘루스 16:32, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
MjolnirPants:구체적인 구제책 요청
위쪽에 따라 닫힘.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 16:37, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
MjolnirPants가 앞으로 나아가기 위해서는 정확히 무엇이 필요한가?내 말은, 우리 모두 컬런이 막은 것에 대해 박수갈채를 보냈지만, 다음엔?나는 더 이상 성적으로 폭력적인 이미지는 없다고 말한다.내게 "젠장"을 사용하는 것은 자기 통제력을 상실하는 것을 의미한다고 나는 MjolnirPants에게 한 발짝 물러서서 화가 났을 때 반응하지 말라고 부탁할 것이다.응, 아까 실에서 많은 분노가 언급된 것 같아.(나는 'perse'라는 단어를 말하는 것이 아니라, 그것이 나타내는 분노에 대해 말하고 있다.그리고 우리가 현실에서 만나지 않는 신에게 기도해?정말?컬렌의 말대로, "멀리 트롤을 다루는 가장 좋은 방법은 그들이 추구하는 관심을 부정하는 것이다."그리고 트롤을 다루는 내 방식은, 내가 말했듯이, 아마도 다른 사람들의 생각에 감사하고 그냥 내버려 두었을 거야.그게 요점인 것 같아 미끼에 들지 말고 그냥 놔둬DLOhcierkim (talk) 01:47, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 개인적으로 나는 지금 이 순간에는 더 이상의 조치가 필요하지 않다고 말하고 싶다.Mjolnir는 즉시 관련된 행위에 대해 이미 제재를 받았다.나는 우리가 "성적으로 폭력적인 언어는 안 된다"는 말을 공식적인 마무리에 넣을 수 있다고 생각하지만, 그것은 거의 그러한 금지가 MP에게 특정하다는 것을 암시하는 것처럼 보인다. 반면에 그러한 금지는 실제로는 항상 이 프로젝트에 적합하지 않고 즉각적인 지역사회 행동에 맞아야 하기 때문에 그것은 다소 불필요해 보인다.게다가, 이전의 ANI는 이미 어떤 종류의 폭력적인 언어도 이 프로젝트에 부적절하며 다음에 그것을 사용할 때 차단을 초래할 가능성이 있다는 경고를 MP에게 받고 있다는 성명을 마감에 포함시켰다.비록 컬렌이 그 이전의 논의를 몰랐을 수도 있다고 생각하지만, 그것이 바로 여기서 일어났던 일이고 그래서 그 문제에 대한 공동체의 결의는 충족되었다.만약 이곳의 상황이 조금만 더 달랐다면, 나는 장기 차단에 대한 제안을 지지했을지도 모른다.그리고 나는 MP의 WP에 대해 매우 우려하고 있다.특히 MP가 이전 ANI에 이어 바로 여기 ANI에 도착했다는 것을 고려할 때, 그의 토크 페이지 상의 블록에 대한 IDHT 과중한 응답은 그리 오래 걸리지 않을 것이라고 걱정한다.
- 그러나 이런 상황에서 (WP에 의한 거친 도발:NOTHERE 편집자와 Mjolnir는 비록 짧은 발언일지라도 그의 논평에 대해 이미 한 블럭을 내놓고 있다), 나는 지금 이 시점에서 더 이상의 행동을 지지할 마음이 없다.공식적인 클로즈업(compative close)이 주어지는 경우, Mjolnir가 WP를 받고 있다는 것을 분명히 밝히는 정도에 불과해야 한다고 생각한다.여기서 ROP는 그러한 면죄부가 거의 없어지고, 특히 폭력적이거나 위협적인 언어가 수반되는 여기서부터 지속시간이 증가할 수 없는 추가적인 장애에 직면하게 될 것이다.Mjolnir는 이것이 노동 환경이고 그것이 협박하려는 노력의 결과라고 말하든, 성질을 잃었든 간에 아무도 그러한 언어의 대상이 되어서는 안 된다는 것을 정말로 한번 그리고 무엇보다도 받아들일 필요가 있다.그러나 다시 말하지만, 현재의 상황과 행동에 대해서, 컬렌은 이미 지역사회의 반응을 확립했고, 문제는 이것이 이 행동의 종말이 되기를 바라면서 여기에 버려져야 한다고 생각한다.지금까지 이 패턴이 받은 주의를 고려할 때, 다음 발생은, 만약 있다면, 더 긴 블록을 초래하게 될 것이며, 그것이 적절할 것이라고 생각한다.눈 02:49, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- @Snow Rise:내 생각엔 그게 바로 효과가 있을 것 같아.나는 @MjolnirPants: 문제를 피하기 위해 어떤 구체적인 지침이 필요하다고 생각한다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 02:55, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 앞서 ANI 보고서에서 꺼낸, 내가 다루고 싶은 것은, 므졸니르팬츠가 상대편의 토크 페이지 게시물을 삭제하는 습관이다.이전 보고서에는 경고 직후부터 3가지 더 많은 토크 페이지 제거 사례와 함께 리치333[20][21]의 이러한 행동에 대한 경고가 포함되었다.[22][23][24] 며칠 전의 현재 두 가지 예를 들어보자.[25][26] 그가 삭제한 논평은 막연했을 수 있지만, 그 중 어느 것도 명백히 토크 페이지 지침을 위반하지 않았으므로, 이러한 다른 편집자들의 글을 삭제하는 것은 WP이다.소유권 동작.2601:42:800:A9DB:C9FC:9DE6:44A6:6E5A (대화) 03:09, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- WP:OWNTAK.니흘러스 03:11, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그것은 절대 논제가 아니다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 03:13, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- WP:OWNTAK.니흘러스 03:11, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 너 그 차이점 봤니?그가 삭제한 게시물은 그의 사용자 대화 내용이 아니라 기사 대화 페이지에 있는 게시물이었다.2601:42:800:A9DB:C9FC:9DE6:44A6:6E5A (대화) 03:16, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 제거들이 정말 잘못되었다고 보지 않는다.WP:NOTFORUM도 적용된다.니흘러스 03:22, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- WP:NOTAFORUM은 이러한 편집에는 적용되지 않는다. 편집 내용은 모두 정책, 내용 및 편집 문제를 다루고 있다.나는 그들이 대단한 논쟁거리라고 말하는 것이 아니고, 그들이 옳고 그른지에 대해서는 특별히 관련이 없기 때문에, 우리가 여기서 그 맥락을 많이 파헤치는 것은 별로 도움이 되지 않을 것이다: IP는 최소한 이 정도로 정확하다: WP:TPG는 매우 구체적이고 좁은 상황에서만 다른 편집자의 논평을 제거할 수 있도록 허용하고 있는데, 내가 알 수 있는 한 이러한 예에서는 어느 것도 만족하지 않는다.MP는 확실히 그 습관을 즉각 중단할 필요가 있다.그것은 이전에 여기서 논의했던 것과는 다소 별개의 문제인데, 나는 정말로 여기서 그것에 관한 하위 서류가 개발되지 않기를 바란다. 그러나 만약 그것이 계속된다면 그것은 최소한 별도의 ANI 불만의 원인이 될 것이다; 편집자들은 그들이 원하지 않는 의견의 페이지를 사설이 없는 한, 그들이 좋아하지 않는 이야기 페이지를 청소하는 것이 허용되지 않는다.값 및 maybethis 1을 제외하고, 그 테스트는 IP가 열거한 어떤 예에도 적용되지 않는다.눈 04:08, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 스노우 라이즈, 나는 그 정책에 대한 당신의 개인적인 해석과 그 정책이 많은 부분에서 모호하기 때문에 여기서 어떻게 적용되는지에 대해 동의하지 않는다.조심하는 쪽으로 실수를 하는 것이 MjolnirPants의 최선책일 것이지만, 나는 여기서 그것이 명백한 정책 위반이라는 것을 보여주는 것은 아무것도 보지 못한다.그럼에도 불구하고, 나는 내가 이미 가지고 있는 것보다 더 많이 토론할 만큼 충분히 이 일에 투자하지 않았다.니흘러스 04:27, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 관련 정책 언어는 WP에 있다.TPO는 다른 편집자의 코멘트를 제거할 수 있는 매우 적은 수의 상황을 개략적으로 설명하며, 이 중 IP가 제공하는 디프에는 전혀 관여하지 않았다.다시 한 번 말하지만, 이 토론에서 우리가 여기 벌레 통조림 따위를 열지 않는 것도 마찬가지라고 생각하지만, 당신이 다시 이런 제거는 문제가 되지 않는다고 주장하는 정도까지, 나는 그들이 사실 정책에 반대한다는 것을 지적해야 하며, 단지 "내 해석상"이나 이런 습관에 대해 언급했던 다른 사람들의 그것만은 아니다; 한 마디 해 보시오.ook 당신 자신을 위해서 그리고 만약 당신이 정말로 MP가 그러한 차이점들의 맥락에서 자유롭고 명확했다고 주장하기를 원한다면 당신이 생각하기에 당신이 완전히 금지된 것에 어떤 예외가 적용되는지 나에게 말해라.그렇지 않으면, 나는 우리가 그 상황에서 할 수 있는 한 이 토론에 집중하기 위해서 그것을 그만둘 것을 제안한다.눈 04:39, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 스노우 라이즈, 나는 그 정책에 대한 당신의 개인적인 해석과 그 정책이 많은 부분에서 모호하기 때문에 여기서 어떻게 적용되는지에 대해 동의하지 않는다.조심하는 쪽으로 실수를 하는 것이 MjolnirPants의 최선책일 것이지만, 나는 여기서 그것이 명백한 정책 위반이라는 것을 보여주는 것은 아무것도 보지 못한다.그럼에도 불구하고, 나는 내가 이미 가지고 있는 것보다 더 많이 토론할 만큼 충분히 이 일에 투자하지 않았다.니흘러스 04:27, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- WP:NOTAFORUM은 이러한 편집에는 적용되지 않는다. 편집 내용은 모두 정책, 내용 및 편집 문제를 다루고 있다.나는 그들이 대단한 논쟁거리라고 말하는 것이 아니고, 그들이 옳고 그른지에 대해서는 특별히 관련이 없기 때문에, 우리가 여기서 그 맥락을 많이 파헤치는 것은 별로 도움이 되지 않을 것이다: IP는 최소한 이 정도로 정확하다: WP:TPG는 매우 구체적이고 좁은 상황에서만 다른 편집자의 논평을 제거할 수 있도록 허용하고 있는데, 내가 알 수 있는 한 이러한 예에서는 어느 것도 만족하지 않는다.MP는 확실히 그 습관을 즉각 중단할 필요가 있다.그것은 이전에 여기서 논의했던 것과는 다소 별개의 문제인데, 나는 정말로 여기서 그것에 관한 하위 서류가 개발되지 않기를 바란다. 그러나 만약 그것이 계속된다면 그것은 최소한 별도의 ANI 불만의 원인이 될 것이다; 편집자들은 그들이 원하지 않는 의견의 페이지를 사설이 없는 한, 그들이 좋아하지 않는 이야기 페이지를 청소하는 것이 허용되지 않는다.값 및 maybethis 1을 제외하고, 그 테스트는 IP가 열거한 어떤 예에도 적용되지 않는다.눈 04:08, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 제거들이 정말 잘못되었다고 보지 않는다.WP:NOTFORUM도 적용된다.니흘러스 03:22, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 너 그 차이점 봤니?그가 삭제한 게시물은 그의 사용자 대화 내용이 아니라 기사 대화 페이지에 있는 게시물이었다.2601:42:800:A9DB:C9FC:9DE6:44A6:6E5A (대화) 03:16, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나와 크람이 위에서 언급한 바와 같이, 우리는 바지가 논쟁의 여지가 없을 정도로 욕설을 사용하여 다른 편집자들을 끌어내리는 것을 반복적으로 보아왔다.우리는 과거에 바츠에게 솔직하게 털어놓고 이런 행동을 하지 말라고 부탁했지만, 바츠는 이런 행동을 반복해 왔다.나는 바지가 대체로 해석되는 이중적 개입과 욕설의 사용을 중단하겠다는 분명한 진술을 할 때까지 현 블록을 계속 봉쇄할 것을 제안할 것이다.루르데스 03:21, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 같은 기고문에 '풀려 내리는 팬츠'라는 문구를 쓰는 사람에게서 나오는 이중적 개입 금지?아닌 것 같아. --Hob Gadling (대화) 08:58, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 토론에서 성적 폭력적 이미지에 대한 극히 광범위한 금지와 그것을 깨뜨린 것에 대한 무거운 제재를 제안하고 싶다.여기에 '젠장'이나 변주곡이라는 말은 포함되지 않는 것 같은데, 아시다시피 강간 이미지는 나쁘다고, 음케이.--조름(토크) 03:32, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 가능한 이유와 상관없이 다른 사람의 토크 페이지 댓글을 삭제하는 데 절대 TBAN을 추가한다.이 사용자는 너무 과민하게 들린다.휴식이 필요할지도 모른다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 04:16, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그래, 문제는, 아주 간단히 말해서, 네 번째 기둥에 대한 직접적인 관심 부족인 것 같아."유용성 제재"는 어리석다. 왜냐하면 그것들은 기존 정책에 중복되어 있기 때문이다.가장 분명한 해결책은 사용자가 태도변화를 다짐하는 즉시 블록을 무한정, 무제한으로 확대하는 것이다.그렇지 않으면 블록이 만료되고 다시 여기 아래 줄에 서게 될 거야~스왑~{talk} 04:31, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- Egad!는 자신의 토크 페이지에서 편집 공지를 본 사람이 있다.아직은 태도 조정 요구 사항의 또 다른 지표인 것 같지만 그것 역시 갈 필요가 있다.DLOhcierkim (talk) 05:22, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- (비관리자 논평) 자신의 사용자 페이지의 요지를 보면서 그는 사과하지 않고 WP:DGAF, 미개한 걸 인정하고 싫으면 모래를 찧을 수도 있어그 모든 것이 그의 행동과 일치한다.설사 제공된다 하더라도 그의 태도나 행동을 바꾸겠다는 약속은 그가 실제로 이행할 일이기는커녕 진심일 것이라고 믿을 이유가 없다고 본다.나는 어두운 기사나 어딘가에서 이 남자와 우연히 마주칠 필요도 없고, 다른 사람(특히 신인)도 그래서는 안 된다.우리는 시민적, 연대적 담론을 기대할 권리가 있다.이 사용자의 마음에서 뿜어져 나오는 외설스러움은 그야말로 이곳에는 아무데도 없다."사회는 스스로를 보호할 권리가 있다."—[AlanM1(대화)]—08:08, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그가 이미 "절대 미개한" 제한을 가지고 있다고 생각했다.(주: 나는 이 사용자와 정기적으로 논쟁을 벌여왔고(현재) 그의 태도 문제에 대해 한 번 이상 수신을 계속하고 있다.)그런 만큼 나는 변명을 지지할 것을 확신한다(나는 중립적이지 않다.나는 다른 사용자들의 토크 페이지 게시물을 삭제하는 것을 금지한다는 생각을 지지한다. (그는 항상 누군가에게 그들이 진짜 문제인지 물어볼 수 있다.)아마도 그 답은 "무례하거나 욕설을 하지 말고, 예의 바르고 공손하게 대하라"고 하는 것이 아닐까, 나는 그가 그것조차도 위키롤을 할 수 있는 방법을 찾을 것이라고 의심했다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 08:35, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- "anger"가 아니라 키보드에 단어를 타이핑하는 것이다.만약 MP가 실제로 화가 났다면 그는 완벽하게 말하고 논리 정연한 씨발과 딜도들의 스크류를 작곡하지 않았을 것이다.자랑하고 있는 것.인터넷이 얼마나 나쁜 사람인지를 보여주기 위해 위키피디아 사용자 이름을 사용한다는 것은 이해의 부재(혹은 더 심하고 배려심 없는)를 배반하는 것이다.나의 우려는 불과 몇 달 전, 하원의원이 "존경하는 마음으로 동료 편집인들을 대하라"는 데 동의하면서 그의 방식을 바꾸겠다고 다짐했고, 불과 4개월 후 - 대부분 그는 스스로 휴식 시간을 가졌다! - 우리는 그와 함께 있던 바로 그 자리로 돌아왔다.다음 위반은 길고 긴 블록을 초래해야 한다.협력적인 환경에서 다른 사람들에게 이렇게 말하는 것은, 당신이 그들과 동의하든 동의하지 않든, 당신이 화가 났든 아니든, 정당성이 없다.내가 차단 관리자였다면 컬런이 명령한 것보다 훨씬 더 긴 차단이었을 거야피쉬+카레이트 09:24, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- "분노"가 아니라 ....그것은 마음을 읽는 것이다.어떤 일을 할 때 그의 마음/감각 상태를 아는 사람은 국회의원을 제외하고는 아무도 없다.그러나 그것은 통제할 수 있는 것이다.백과사전을 위해 일관성 있는 내용을 쓰는 사람은 정의에 의해 명확하고 중립적이며 비인간적인 용어로 의사소통이 가능하다.이것은 심지어 트롤이나 다른 격분한 사람들과 의사소통할 때 할 수 있다.그것은 연습과 심지어 필요할 때 키보드에서 물러나는 것과 같은 행동 수정이 필요할 수도 있지만, 그것은 위키피디아에서 요구되는 것이고, 국회의원들이 바꾸기로 약속한 것이다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 09:42, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 모든 문제들이 WP:BATtleground의 제목 아래에 있을 것을 제안한다. MJP는 이견에 대해 대립적이고 개인화된 접근법을 반복적으로 취하며, 종종 그의 "반대자들"이 미친+나쁜 사람이라는 것을 "증언"하기 시작한다.그는 사물을 보는 방법이 하나 이상 있을 수도 있고, 자기 자신이 실수할 수도 있다는 것을 체계적으로 고려하지 않으려는 마음이 있다.
- 만약 그가 전장 접근법을 포기하고 협력에 전념한다면, 구체적인 행동 문제가 뒤따를 것이다.
- 반대로, 그가 배틀그라운드 접근방식을 유지한다면 받아들일 수 없는 행동의 목록이 문제를 대신하게 될 뿐이다. --BrownHairedGirl (토크) • (출연) 11:31, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- "실습을 하고 심지어 행동 수정의 어떤 형태도" - 네네, 포함되었습니다.내가 할 수 있다면 누구라도 Dlohcierkim (talk) 13:14, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 위의 많은 논평들은 내가 이전에 토론했던 것을 비도덕성에 대한 경고로 언급하고 있는 것처럼 보인다.나는 그것이 아니었다는 것을 매우 분명히 하고 싶다. 그것은 다른 관점을 가진 편집자들을 더 존중하라는 MjolnirPants의 다짐이었고, 같은 토론에서 나는 다소 오버래스트 레이서들에 대한 공격적인 대우를 지지했다.그 토론에서 내가 쓴 유일한 경고는 이것이었다: "이것("우리가 직접 만나지 않는 어떤 신에게 기도하라")은 폭력의 직접적인 위협이며, 나는 맥락이나 감정이나 그 밖의 어떤 것에도 개의치 않는다. 또는 당신이 이런 식으로 읽히려고 의도했다고 생각하는지 아닌지, 만약 내가 다시 이런 글을 쓴다면, 나는 당신을 차단할 것이다.그리고 그것은 오랫동안 지속될 것이다."나는 이미 이 사건이 폭력적인 행위를 분명히 묘사하고 있지만 "직접적인 폭력의 위협"이라고 생각하지 않는다고 논평했다.나는 우리가 편집자들에게 폭력적인 성행위에 대한 설명으로 대립에 대응하지 말라고 경고할 필요가 없다는 것에 동의하고, 동시에 므골니르팬츠가 스스로 그 선을 긋지 못하는 것 같으니 이 경우 그렇게 해야 한다는 것에 동의한다.그러나, 나는 "젠장"이라는 단어를 사용하는 것에 대한 어떤 제한에도 반대하며, 폭력을 묘사하지 않는 방식으로 지나친 인종 차별주의자들을 조롱하는 것을 막기 위해 일반적으로 언급되는 어떤 제한에도 반대한다. (인종주의 그 자체는 폭력이지만, 현물로 대응할 필요는 없다.)솔직히 인종 차별주의자들이 밍골니르팬츠 같은 편집자들의 학대를 두려워하여 위키피디아를 편집하지 않는다면, 그것은 좋은 일이다.이반벡터 (/)TalkEdits 14:27, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 만약 MJP가 인종 차별주의자들을 위해 그의 욕심을 비축하고 있다면, 당신은 일리가 있을지도 모른다.하지만 그는 그렇지 않다.
- 그리고 어떤 경우든 폭언을 하지 않고 인종 차별주의자들을 대할 수 있는 방법은 얼마든지 있다.MJP의 배틀그라운드 접근법을 공유하지 않는 한 다른 편집자들이 그 수준으로 자신을 축소할 필요는 없다. --BrownHairdGirl (토크) • (연출) 15:09, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
60시간 블록
이후 MJP가 차단되지 않아 마감됨, 더 이상 지체할 필요가 없음, –Davey2010Talk 13:46, 2019년 2월 21일(UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
브라운헤어드걸은 그의 이전 블록이 만료된 직후에 60시간짜리 블록을 하원의원에 떨어뜨린 것에 만족하지 않는다.위 블록을 지지하는 사람도 있지만, 그에 대한 공감대만큼 좋은 것은 없으며, 좋은 이의 제기가 없는 한 오늘 오후 중에 차단을 해제할 계획이다.리치333 12(cont):31, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 음, 만약 그를 쫓아내는 것이 요점이라면, 즉각적인 재차단이 꽤 효과적일 것 같다.그의 언어를 다듬는 것이 핵심이라면, 나는 재차단이 최적의 길이라고 생각하지 않는다.O3000 (토크) 12:36, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그의 강연에 대한 코멘트에 따르면, 나는 WP:ROP에 따라 그 블록을 해제했다. 욕설적인 인신공격물건들이 멈추는지, 만약 리브록이 되지 않는다면. --BrownHairdGirl (토크) • (기적) 12:39, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 사람들은 왜 MJP가 욕설을 사용하는지 궁금해한다.그가 그 메시지를 마음에 새기길 바란다.그것은 크고 선명하게 통과되어야 한다.다시, 처음 차단됐어그가 알게 되면 우린 끝장이야.그는 상승하고, 블록은 상승한다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 13:12, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그의 강연에 대한 코멘트에 따르면, 나는 WP:ROP에 따라 그 블록을 해제했다. 욕설적인 인신공격물건들이 멈추는지, 만약 리브록이 되지 않는다면. --BrownHairdGirl (토크) • (기적) 12:39, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
지금까지 누가 문을 닫을 것인가를 두고 싸우는 지저분한 ANI 실이 두 개 있었는데, 실질적인 해결책이 없는 서로 다른 해석과 뚜렷한 결과가 없는 하나의 WP:CENT 광고의 시민성 RfC가 있었다.완전히 개방하기 위해서, 나는 지금 이 시점에서 중재 요청에 대한 실패한 분쟁 해결이 충분히 있을 수 있다고 생각한다.내가 아직 RFAR을 제출하지 않은 유일한 이유는 Cullen328이 31시간 블록을 발행해서 실제로 어떤 조치가 있었기 때문이다.그러나 언블록 요청과 새로운 블록이 발행되고 해제되는 상황에서 F 폭탄이 계속되면 다음에 어떤 일이 벌어질지 뚜렷한 지시도 없이 다시 한 번 납득이 가지 않는 것 같다. --Pudeo (토크) 13:36, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- @Pudeo: 역사적으로 "fuck"은 여기서 실행될 수 없다.아마도 불행히도.심지어 WP:civil도 그것을 주목한다.그리고 가능하면 언제든지 MJP를 자극할 수 있을 거라고 믿고 있어. 소고기?DLOhcierkim (대화) 13:42, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
사용자:BF93
(관리자 이외의 폐쇄) 모직 또는 면 이것들은 오직 발 위에 있을 뿐이다. 빌어먹을 양말! 캡틴 EekEdits Ho Cap'n! 01:50, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자: BF93과 그들의 토크 페이지와 시그니처 뱅크 기사 토크 페이지에서 여러 번 대화를 시도했음에도 불구하고, 그들은 설명 없이 만들어진 업데이트들을 계속 되돌리고 있다.그들은 그들의 편집 이력과 관련된 논평에서 은행이 기사에서 "부정적인 사실/진실을 없애주고 있다"고 생각한다고 말했지만 이것은 사실이 아니다.문제의 편집은 은행이 하는 것이 아니고 나는 부정적인 정보를 삭제하는 것이 아니다. 즉, 중복된 정보를 제거하고 기존 정보를 더 잘 정리하려고 하는 것이다.기사의 토크 페이지에서 가장 최근에 제안된 편집 목록을 볼 수 있다.나는 WP:30 파일링을 시도했지만, 사용자가 나 자신이나 다른 진행자와 대화에 참여하지 않는다는 사실 때문에 거절당했다.우리의 다음 단계는 무엇인가?웰트레이드(대화) 19:32, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 그들은 2월 20일 이후로 편집하지 않고 자주 편집하지 않는다.Ed Johnston의 편집 전쟁으로 두 번 차단됨.나는 그들에게 더 편집하기 전에 ANI 스레드에 응답해야 한다고 경고했다.BF93과 웰트레이드 모두 슬로 모션 편집 전쟁이었다.BF93은 논의의뢰를 일축했다.DLOhcierkim(대화) 22:11, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 사용자: BF93 양말 막힘.DLOhcierkim (talk) 00:00, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
과테말라 반달에 필요한 대형 레인지 블록
/48 범위 차단 6개월.피쉬+카레이트 15:15, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
위키피디아에서 설명한 과테말라의 지속적인 데이트 변경 반달도 있다.장기 남용/190.104.120.240, 2017년 11월부터 특수 범위:기여금/2803:7000:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0/32
이 반달은 지난 15개월 동안 유일하게 /32 범위를 사용하고 있기 때문에 나는 /32 전체를 오랫동안 차단했으면 한다.그럴 수 있을까?HJ Mitchell이 2주 동안 /32를 차단했지만 2주 전이었고, 중단이 재개되었다.아래 나열된 이전 범위 블록.브링크스터넷 (대화) 21:29, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- 2013 – 190.111.10.32/27(블록 범위 · 블록 로그(글로벌) · WHOIS(부분적))
- 2013-2015 – 190.106.222.0/25(블록 범위 · 블록 로그(글로벌) · WHOIS(부분적))
- 2018 – 2803:7000:4800:1661:0:0:0:0:0/64(블록 범위 ·블록 로그(글로벌) ·WHOIS(부분))
- 2018 – 2803:7000:4800:379:0:0:0:0:0:0/64(블록 범위 ·블록 로그(글로벌) ·WHOIS(부분))
- 2018 – 2803:7000:4800:0:0:0:0:0:0/48(블록 범위 ·블록 로그(글로벌) ·WHOIS(부분))
- 2019 – 2803:7000:0:0:0:0:0:0:0/32(블록 범위 ·블록 로그(글로벌) ·WHOIS(부분))
- SOFT는 일주일 동안 /32를 차단했다.레인지블록이 있는 경험이 더 많은 사람이 내 일을 체크해야 한다.DLOhcierkim(대화) 21:52, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- CIDR은 /32이므로 과테말라 전국을 차단한 것 같다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 21:57, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- D'loh! Jip[FBDB] Orlando (토크) 22:03, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- @Dlohcierkim: - 거의 주식 가치가 있어!코백베어 (토크) 23:19, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- @Dlohcierkim:2803:7000/32의 기여자 명단을 잡아 가지고 조금 놀았다.2016-11-24년까지 거슬러 올라가는 2336개의 기여 중 146개를 제외한 모든 기여도가 2803:7000:4800/48에 있다.그 범위 밖에 있는 사람들은 대부분 오래되었다.지난 몇 달 안에 있는 것들은 그 패턴과 잘 맞지 않지만, 몇몇은 바람직하지 않다.범위를 /48. —[AlanM1(토크)]—00:44, 2019년 2월 22일(UTC)[ ]으로 조일 것을 제안한다
- 1월 1일 이후 /32에서 실제로 좋은 편집이 있는지 확실하지 않다.하지만 어떤 레인지 블록을 선택하든 일주일 이상 제자리에 있어야 할 수도 있다.1월 1일 이후 /32의 모든 편집을 스캔하여 나는 노래 기사를 편집하지 않은 이 편집만 찾았다.하지만 이 또한 공공 기물 파손이다.내 추측으로는 노래기사의 편집은 모두 같은 사람에 의해 이루어지며 차단할 가치가 있다.일주일 블록을 최대 한 달까지 연장해야 할 수도 있다고 제안하십시오.같은 사람이 LTA 건에 따르면 2013년부터 활동 중이다.에드존스턴 (대화) 03:08, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- D'loh! Jip[FBDB] Orlando (토크) 22:03, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[ 하라
- 고마워, 한 달 동안 소프트 블록 /32.DLOhcierkim (대화) 04:36, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
I blocked the /48 for 6 months - as far as I can see every single contribution on that range is them, and they've been at that for more than 2 years - Dlohcierekim I've modified the /32 to display {{rangeblock}}; I have to agree with AlanM1 that I don't think the /32 rangeblock is necessary - every edit that is in the /48 appears to be the LTA and외부 모든 편집은 그렇지 않으므로 /48 범위 블록은 다른 사용자를 차단하지 않고 동일하게 수행된다(/32 범위 중 최근 500개 편집 중 495개가 /48에서 편집됨).갤럽터 (pingo mio) 14:29, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ 하라
블록 요청
봇 차단으로 폐쇄됨.–Davey2010Talk 22:05, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
WP의 요청에 따라:ANRFC, 도움말을 닫았다.인용 스타일 1#RFC는 인용 저널의 출판사 및 위치에 있으며 인용 봇의 행동에 관련된다.운영자(Smith609)가 거의 2주 동안 편집하지 않았으므로 RfC의 결과에 부합할 때까지 봇을 차단해 줄 것을 요청한다. --DannyS712 (대화) 19:52, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
완료. 샌드스타인 20:23, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 관련 항목: 위키백과:관련이 없지만 문제가 있는 봇과 유지관리자의 동작에 대해 필터/요청/아카이브_12#CiteSeerX 및 인용 봇을 편집하십시오.—David Eppstein (대화) 00:04, 2019년 2월 23일 (UTC)[
템플릿:Infobox 의학적 상태
이 문제는 해결되었으며 여기서는 행정 조치가 필요하지 않다.실수는 일어난다; 의사소통과 적절한 과정이 무너지고, 연결은 끊어지고, 일은 깨진다...그것은 일어난다.이 게시판에 대한 토론과 조치는 다음과 같다. 라이브 템플릿, 모듈, 스크립트 또는 기타 변환된 페이지를 이동하려면 먼저 배포와 변경을 위해 매우 세심한 계획과 사전 롤아웃 단계와 함께 광범위한 의견 전달과 커뮤니케이션을 따라야 한다는 것을 이 게시판에 있는 관련자(및 다른 모든 사람)에게 교훈으로 삼으십시오.프로젝트 진행에 최대한 지장을 주지 않고 순조롭게 진행하십시오.템플릿이나 다른 페이지를 사용하여 페이지 이동을 실행하는 것을 고려하는 모든 사용자는 "여기에 링크된 항목" 링크를 보고 첫 번째 단계로 전가 횟수를 살펴봐야 한다.전폐 횟수가 많고 페이지수가 많다면, "아니오 -이것은 먼저 신중하게 논의하고 계획할 필요가 있다."(talk) (contribs) :-) ~오슈와~ 23:28, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ 하라]는 붉은 깃발이다 |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
오늘 이전에는 Template:라는 이름의 오랫동안 구축된 템플릿이 있었다.Infobox 의학적 상태와 Template라고 하는 보다 현대적인 버전:템플릿과 함께 작동하는 Infobox 의료 상태(신규):의료 자원.첫 번째 근사치를 위해 {{Infobox 의료상태(신규)}}}과(와) {{의료자원}} 사이에 {{Infobox 의료상태}의 내용을 분할했다.
Zackmann08의 논의되지 않은 이동 요청에 따라 템플릿:Infobox 의료 상태가 템플릿으로 이동됨:Infobox 의료 상태(구) 및 템플릿:Infobox 의료 상태(신규)가 템플릿으로 이동됨:JJMC89에 의한 Infobox 의학적 상태는 해당 토크 페이지 아카이브가 이동된 흔적은 볼 수 없지만,아마 그것이 통나무에 나타나는 방식일 것이다.오늘 후반에 Doc James가 템플리트를 이동:템플릿으로 돌아가는 Infobox 의료 상태:Infobox 의학적 상태(신규).
현재 상황은 세 가지 템플릿이 있지만 두 가지 템플릿 모두:Infobox 의료 상태(구) 및 템플릿:Infobox 의료 상태가 템플릿으로 리디렉션됨:Infobox 의학적 상태(신규).그래서 원래의 템플릿은 논의도 없이 완전히 사라졌다.그러나 템플릿 대화:Infobox 의학적 조건(구)이 존재하지만 템플릿 설명:Infobox 의료 상태는 Template talk로 리디렉션된다.Infobox 의학적 상태(신규).토크 페이지 아카이브는 이제 템플릿 토크:Infobox 의료 상태(구)/아카이브 1,2,3,4 및 템플릿 토크:Infobox 의학적 상태(신규)/아카이브 1.이것을 합리화하여 원본을 더 이상 사용하지 않는 데 필요한 단계에 대해 논의해 볼 수 있을까?고마워, --RexxS (대화) 22:31, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 어, 사건 게시판에 이게 무슨 짓이야?어떤 위법행위를 주장하는 겁니까?또한 나에 의한 위법행위를 주장하는 경우에는 어떤 행위를 해야 하는지 통보하지 못한 것이다. --Zackmann (/)Talk to meWhat I been doing 22:35, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 템플릿 이름에서 "new"를 제거하는 문제는 모든 wikidata 언어 간 연결을 끊는다는 겁니다.이것은 콘텐츠 번역 도구를 혼동하여 더 이상 "new"를 사용할 수 없다.
- 콘텐츠 번역/wikidata 언어 간 링크는 리디렉션에 문제가 있다.고쳐야 할 문제지만 내가 고칠 능력이 없는 문제.
- 그래서 나는 템플릿을 다시 "새" 이름으로 옮겼다.나와 다른 많은 사람들은 더 이상 메인 공간에서 사용되지 않도록 "구" 템플릿의 나머지 인스턴스들을 부정했다.그러므로 IMO는 사람들이 앞으로 그것을 사용하는 것을 막기 위해 "구"를 "mew"로 바꾸는 것이 타당하다.
- 나는 우리가 여기서 어떠한 위법 행위도 가지고 있다고 생각하지 않는다.이러한 조치를 취하기 전에 모든 문제를 처리해야 한다는 것은 간단하다.그리고 이러한 이슈들을 고려하지 않은 채 조치를 취했다.Doc James (대화 · 기여 · 이메일) 22:41, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- @Zackmann08:
페이지
는 긴급한사건들과 만성적이고 난해한 행동 문제에 대한 논의를 위한 것이다."
라는 이 게시판의 윗부분의 공지로 안내하겠다.내 직책은 행동이나 개인과는 아무런 관계가 없다.행정적인 주의가 필요한 문제일 뿐이다.너는 예의상 핑계를 댔지만, 나는 아직 너에 대한 논의를 시작하지 않았고 너에게 알릴 필요가 없다.충분히 알아듣겠니? - @Doc 제임스:이 보드는 단지 행동적인 문제에 더 많이 사용된다.논의 없이 사용하지 않은 템플릿을 삭제해도 괜찮다고 믿는다면, 내가 동의하지 않을 사람이 누구인가?그러나, 그것은 우리에게 더 이상 어디에서 토크 페이지 토론이나 파일 히스토리를 찾아야 할 지 명확하지 않다는 입장을 남겼다.무엇이 잘못되었는지 연구한 후 수정하려면 관리자가 템플릿을 이동하십시오.템플릿 상의 Infobox 의료 상태(구) 및 하위 페이지:리디렉트되지 않은 Infobox 의료 상태 및 템플릿 설명:Template talk를 통한 Infobox 의료 상태(Template talk:리디렉션을 남기지 않고 Infobox 의학적 상태.이렇게 하면 페이지 내역이 그대로 유지되고, 대화 페이지와 해당 보관 파일이 분명한 장소에 있는 두 개의 템플릿의 위치를 복원할 수 있으며, 템플릿 대화:새로운 템플릿으로 리디렉션되는 Infobox 의학적 조건. --RexxS (대화) 23:00, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 이 일은 급할 게 없다.진행하기 전에 템플릿 페이지에서 확실히 논의할 필요가 있지만, 진행 방식이 마음에 들지 않아 ANI 사건을 여는 것은 미친 짓이다. --Zackmann (/)Talk to meWhat I been doing 23:02, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 또한 RexxS는 ANI를 열기 전에 ZERO가 이 문제를 다른 곳에서도 논의하려고 시도했다는 점에 주목하고 싶다. --Zackmann (/)Talk to meWhat I been doing 23:04, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 감사 사용자:RexxS. 동의하고 다른 비트를 원래대로 복원했다.
- 그런데 이것은 위키프로젝트 메디컬이 사용한 템플릿 1위다.한 달에 5,000만 페이지 이상의 페이지 뷰를 가진 페이지의 템플릿.우리는 신중하게 움직여야 하고 이 프로젝트의 핵심 구성원들의 참여를 확실히 해야 한다.Doc James (대화 · 기여 · 이메일) 23:05, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- @Zackmann08: 나를 다시 한번 '너구리'라고 부르면 ANI에서 행동보고서의 마지막을 보게 될 것이다.나는 네가 NPA를 이해하기를 바란다.너의 경솔한 행동이 이 난장판을 촉발시켰고, 당신은 미래에 그것들을 요구하기 전에 당신이 이해하지 못하는 움직임에 대해 토론하는 법을 배워야 한다.페이지 기록, 대화 페이지, 그리고 그들의 기록 보관소를 어떤 시간 동안 아무도 볼 수 없는 땅에 가두어 두는 것은 용납될 수 없다.내가 토크 페이지 중 하나에 메모를 올린 것은 전적으로 제로 포인트였다. 왜냐하면 당신 덕분에, 그들은 모두 감동 받았기 때문이다.시청하지 않은 대화 페이지에서 이 문제에 더 많은 관심을 끌려면 얼마나 걸릴지 모르겠지만, 나는 이 문제에 더 많은 관심을 갖는 것이 더 복잡해지기 전에 우선이라고 느꼈고, 따라서 이 게시물은 여기 게시되었다.자신의 행동에 당혹감을 느낀다면, 그 말을 들으니 안타깝고, 본래의 글에서 실패에 주목받는 요점을 만들지 못했지만, 언제 막대기를 떨어뜨려야 할지 이해가 안 가는 것 같군, 그렇지? --RexS (대화) 23:20, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 또한 RexxS는 ANI를 열기 전에 ZERO가 이 문제를 다른 곳에서도 논의하려고 시도했다는 점에 주목하고 싶다. --Zackmann (/)Talk to meWhat I been doing 23:04, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- 이 일은 급할 게 없다.진행하기 전에 템플릿 페이지에서 확실히 논의할 필요가 있지만, 진행 방식이 마음에 들지 않아 ANI 사건을 여는 것은 미친 짓이다. --Zackmann (/)Talk to meWhat I been doing 23:02, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- @Zackmann08:
내가 이해하기로는 우리는 이 문제를 해결했고 이것이 보관된 것을 보게 되어 기쁘다.베스트닥 제임스 (대화 · 기여 · 이메일) 23:24, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[
- (충돌 편집)
템플릿수정:Infobox 의료 상태 페이지를 템플릿으로 재연결하기 전에 원래 템플릿 코드로 복원하십시오.Infobox 의학적 상태(신규).템플릿 페이지의 이동을 취소하고 손상된 부분과 원래 템플릿이 더 이상 표시되지 않도록 수정하는 과정에서 누락된 사항이다.행정 조치가 필요 없기 때문에 나는 이 논의가 필요하다고 생각하지 않는다.실수는 일어난다; 의사소통과 적절한 과정이 무너지고, 연결은 끊어지고, 일은 깨진다...그런 일이 있다.이 게시판에 대한 토론과 조치는 다음과 같다. 라이브 템플릿, 모듈, 스크립트 또는 기타 변환된 페이지를 이동하려면 먼저 배포와 변경을 위해 매우 세심한 계획과 사전 롤아웃 단계와 함께 광범위한 의견 전달과 커뮤니케이션을 따라야 한다는 것을 이 게시판에 있는 관련자(및 다른 모든 사람)에게 교훈으로 삼으십시오.프로젝트 진행에 최대한 지장을 주지 않고 순조롭게 진행하십시오.템플릿이나 다른 페이지를 사용하여 페이지 이동을 실행하는 것을 고려하는 모든 사용자는 "여기에 링크된 항목" 링크를 보고 첫 번째 단계로 전가 횟수를 살펴봐야 한다.전폐 횟수가 많고 페이지수가 많다면, "아니오 -이것은 먼저 신중하게 논의하고 계획할 필요가 있다."(talk) (contribs) :-) ~오슈와~ 23:27, 2019년 2월 22일 (UTC)[ 하라]는 붉은 깃발이다
RBL2000의 WP:대화에서의 폴리티시 행동:2019 베네수엘라 대통령 위기
모두 안녕!이건 내 보고서야.
요약:나는 이 토크 페이지에서 많은 사용자들이 명백히 방해와 분열을 일으키는 행동을 하고 있는 것 같다는 것을 슬프게 알아차렸다.
차이:
이전 경고에 대한 정보:
- 특수:Diff/884265375#2019 베네수엘라 대통령 위기 - 샌디조지아의 레벨 4 경고
배경:
SandyGeorgia는 이 사용자에게 많은 WP:ROP을 주었다.그들은 마침내 현재 언급된 토크 페이지 외부로 편집을 확대하기 시작했지만, 그들의 WP는 다음과 같다.Polemic은 여전히 널리 퍼져있다.나는 해결책을 모르지만, 여기서는 주제 금지가 적절할 수도 있다고 생각할 것이다.
이 문제를 해결해줘서 모두 고마워!-매튜 J. 롱 -토크-☖ 18:47, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 전화해줘서 고마워, MattLongCT.나는 오랫동안 반대되는 주제인 첫 번째 범죄에 대한 금지로 기록되어왔다; 나는 그것들이 진정으로 최후의 수단으로만 사용되어야 한다고 믿는다.RBL2000의 편집 행태로 뭔가 조치가 필요한데 뭐가 뭔지 모르겠다.WP의 나쁜 예가 있다.IDNTHEARS, WP:SPA 및 WP:NOTHERE, 그리고 그 기사에 오직 세 명의 편집자만이 편집자 시간의 대부분을 차지하여, 이중언어를 구사하는 소수의 다른 생산적인 편집을 방해하고 있다는 것은 주목할 만한 일이다.그 세 가지 외에는 기사가 메인페이지에 풍화작용을 하고 있는 것 같다!SandyGeorgia (토크) 18:53, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 이거 먹어보자.RBL2000(토크 · 기여)은 어떤 토크 페이지에서도 더 이상 편집하지 않도록 주의한다. 당신은 정책적 우려에 국한될 것이다. 너는 다른 편집자들이 불성실하게 행동한다고 비난하지 않을 것이다. 당신은 "당신", "센서" 또는 "역사를 고침"을 사용하지 않을 것이다. 당신은 내용만 언급할 것이다. Twiiter like를 인용하는 것은 OR이다. 그것은 RS를 인용하는 것이 아니다. 너는 비누 복싱을 멈출 것이다. 너는 최종 경고를 이미 넘겼다. 이것은 주제 금지나 전면 차단을 피할 수 있는 마지막 기회다.DLOhcierkim (talk) 19:48, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 좋아. 2019년 베네수엘라 대통령 위기에서 트위터와 관련된 것이 광범위하게 사용/커넥트/참조되고 있다는 것을 지적할 필요가 있고, 내가 트위터와 관련된 것을 사용/커넥트/참조하는 것은 당신이 위키피디아에 관한 기사를 볼 수 있듯이 그들의 공식 계정인 'Contact Us part linkin'에 있는 그들의 기사에서 볼 수 있는 Hands Off 베네수엘라와 관련이 있다.g twitter accampaign[1] @HOV캠페인, 즉 내가 사용한 twitter 링크는 OR이 아닌 다른 방법으로 2019년 베네수엘라 대통령 위기 때 사용한 것 또한 이와 같이 구성될 것이다.그 핵심은 기사가 압도적 취재와 친과도에 초점을 맞추는 것을 고려했을 때 중립적이지 않고 모로코와 관련된 것과 같은 공식 정부 출처들이 알바니아와 같은 다양한 정부 정치인들의 트위터 계정과 트윗에 적용되지 않을 때 샌디조지아에 의해 논란이 되었다는 나의 견해다.RS. RBL2000 (토크) 22:29, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[ 하라 로 처리되는 r(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#cite_note-271))
- 나는 WP를 설명하기 위해 마약을 하지는 않을 것이다.ANI에서 네 번째 RS를 받았어.마지막으로 한 번 더 말하겠다(왜냐하면 이것은 당신이 그렇게 많은 편집자 시간을 빼앗은 전형적인 방식이기 때문이다.
어떤 상황에서 WP:에 대해 설명하려고 했던 아카이브의 이 섹션을 참조하십시오.셀프 소스가 사용될 수 있으며 WP:다른 우주 비행사들.2019년 베네수엘라 대통령 위기 기사는 거의 500여 개의 출처가 있으며, 나는 그들 모두에게 말할 수 없다; 나는 내가 약혼한 대화 페이지의 사례들을 말할 수 있다. 알바니아는 그들 중 하나가 아니다. (아마도, 번역을 하고 그것이 대통령의 공식 계정이라고 확신한 편집자는)나도 몰라나는 모든 편집에 대해 책임지지 않는다.편집에 대한 책임은 귀하에게 있다.)당신은 SEFPUB와 일치하지 않는 방법으로 HandsOffVenezuela 트위터 계정과 같은 소스를 사용하길 원한다.그리고 그것은 내가 위키피디아의 소싱 가이드라인에 대한 이해를 보여주지 않은 많은 방법들 중 하나일 뿐이다. 내가 그것들을 설명하기 위해 투입한 시간과 선의에 관계 없이 말이다.
다시 말하지만, 너는 여기서 너의 대답에 비타협적이다.
내 제안은 당신이 더 이상 기사를 편집하지 않고, 토크를 통해 출처를 제안하고, 그리고 여러 편집자가 어떤 종류의 텍스트에 대해 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 무엇인지 설명할 때 IDNTHEARTH를 중단하는 것으로 제한될 필요가 있다는 것이다.만약 그 트윗이 대통령이나 외무장관, 또는 알바니아에서 온 것이라면, 그리고 그것이 검증된 계정이라면, 그리고 그것이 알바니아는 고이도(Gaido)를 인정한다고 말한다면, 그것은 자신과 알바니아를 위해 올바르게 말하고 있는 것이다.하지만 나는 언어를 말하지 않고, 편집을 하지 않으며, 트윗이 무엇을 말하고 있는지, 누구에게서 온 것인지 모른다.나는 당신이 신뢰할 수 없는 출처를 반복적으로 그리고 철저하게 사용하고 있으며, 위키백과 정책과 지침을 소화하려고 노력하지 않고 다른 종류의 텍스트에 적합한 출처가 무엇인지 다른 편집자들로부터 배운다는 것을 알고 있다.샌디조지아 (토크) 23:00, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- 나는 WP를 설명하기 위해 마약을 하지는 않을 것이다.ANI에서 네 번째 RS를 받았어.마지막으로 한 번 더 말하겠다(왜냐하면 이것은 당신이 그렇게 많은 편집자 시간을 빼앗은 전형적인 방식이기 때문이다.
(편집 충돌) FWIW, 샌드박스나 텍스트 편집기로 작곡한 다음 편집 충돌에서 txt를 잃지 않도록 어디에나 붙여넣는다.DLOhcierkim(대화) 23:54, 2019년 2월 20일(UTC)
사용자별 WP:호킹:브링크스테르넷
나는 예전만큼 위키피디아를 편집하지는 않지만, 몇 가지 새로운 기사를 만들고 기존 기사로 크게 확장하면서 지난 몇 주 동안 더 많은 편집을 하고 있다.Binksternet (토크 · 기여)은 지난 (몇 년 전) 나와 충돌한 적이 있는 WP에 참가해왔다.내가 다시 활동한다는 걸 알게 된 후 지난 24시간 동안 호링거렸지
- 수잔 B에서. 앤서니 리스트는 트윙클을 사용하여 내가 편집한 12개의 편집본을 돌려받았는데, 그것은 광범위하게 소싱되거나 논란의 소지가 있을 수 있다. 그러나 나는 기꺼이 다른 편집자들의 반대를 다루었다.Binksternet은 수잔 B를 편집할 수 없다고 일방적으로 선언했다.WP 때문에 앤서니 리스트:COI. 나는 10년 전 고등학교 3학년 때 대학 진학을 위해 일주일에 몇 시간씩 이 조직을 위해 자원봉사를 했다.그의 토크 페이지와 나의 토크 페이지에 언급된 바와 같이, 나는 급여를 받은 적도 없고, 직원도 없었고, 그 이후로 그들과 접촉한 적도 없으며, 브링크스테넷 자신과의 여러 가지 뒷얘기를 포함하여, 내가 그 기사를 편집하는 것을 금지할 필요가 있다는 것을 아무도 발견하지 못한 채 몇 년 동안 기사를 편집해 왔다.
- Artur Davis에서 그는 논쟁의 여지가 없는 복사물을 한 뭉치 롤백했다.그는 내가 데이비스가 뎀에서 렙으로 전환한 시기를 없애 공화당을 좋게 보이거나 민주당을 나쁘게 보이도록 만들려고 했다고 말했지만, 브링크스터넷이 내 편집본을 실제로 읽지 않은 것은 분명하다.왜냐하면 내가 편집하기 전에 그 기사는 데이비스가 공화당으로 전환하는 것에 대해 같은 문장을 중복해서 3번 반복했기 때문이다.내가 한 일은 그 반복을 없애고 납을 더 읽기 쉽게 만드는 것뿐이었다.그러나 Binksternet은 편집 요약본에서 "직장의 정치 활동가"라고 말하면서 어쨌든 그들을 밀어냈다.
- 앤드류 쿠오모에서 그는 내가 폭스뉴스를 어떻게 진보적인 법안이 보수주의자들을 화나게 했는지에 대해 이야기하면서 사실상의 판결의 출처로 사용할 수 없다고 선언했다.그는 내가 편집한 내용이 버팔로 뉴스와 주지사 사무실 보도자료를 인용한 것을 무시했다.
- 토미 노먼트에서 그는 두 개의 "비중립적인 내용 삭제"를 철회했다.문제의 내용은 노먼트나 그의 정보를 이용하는 누군가가 애슐리 매디슨 유출 사건에서 이름이 나왔고, 나는 WP에서 삭제했다.BLP의 근거는 비난 때문이다.논쟁의 여지가 있지만 "비중립"은 아니다.다른 편집자는 WP가 아닌 미국진보센터 소유의 ThinkProgress에서 익명의 비난을 하는 한 기사를 삭제했다.RS. Binksternet에 따르면, 폭스 뉴스는 믿을 만한 출처가 아니라 진보주의 운동 단체 소유의 블로그가?
- 테오도어 매캐릭에서 그는 대주교와 추기경으로서의 맥캐릭의 역사를 추적하는 레드의 광범위한 확장을 롤백했다.그는 내가 맥캐릭을 '진보적'으로 규정했다는 사실에 반대했다.그러한 특성화는 어제 쓰여진 기사에서 뉴욕 타임즈로부터, 그리고 수년 전에 쓰여진 기사에서 발췌되었다.Binksternet은 확실히 편집하기 전에 편집된 내용을 읽지 않았다. 내 편집 내용을 롤백하기 위해 워링을 편집하기 전에 말이다.
Binksternet is WP:내가 최근에 편집한 6개의 다른 기사들([33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38])을 지난 24시간 동안 나를 호칭하여 그가 읽지 않은 소스의 내용을 대대적으로 되짚어 편집 요약본에 "정치운동가"를 인용하고 편집 전쟁에 참여하여 트윙클을 남용했다.브링크스터넷은 이러한 WP:BATtleground 행태에 관여했던 이력이 있으며, 이것이 그의 2013년 관리직 요청이 거절된 한 가지 이유다.나는 과거에 Binksternet과 충돌한 적이 있지만 지금은 그렇게 하는 것에 관심이 없다.나는 내가 위키피디아에서 확실히 실수를 했고 과거에 그들을 위한 제재에 직면했다는 것을 인정한다.브링크스터넷은 몇 년 전에 일어났던 오래된 논쟁들을 풀려고 애쓰고 있어. 내 주제를 금지시키기 위해서 말이야. 일종의 복수 때문에 말이야.내가 원하는 것은 단지 괴롭힘 당하지 않고 백과사전에 기여하는 것이다.나는 브링크스터넷에게 나의 편집 내용을 그만 괴롭히고 대신 건설적으로 논의하라고 지시할 것을 요청하고 있다.만약 그가 하지 않는다면, 나는 상호 작용 금지를 요청한다.인스타라레 (대화) 10:11, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 이러한 상호 작용 금지의 요청은 위키피디아와 일치하지 않는 목표를 가진 정치 활동가인 인스타우라레에게 부메랑으로 다가올 것이다.그는 미국의 자유주의 사상과 사람들을 내려놓으면서 미국의 보수주의 사상과 사람들을 장려한다는 중립적이지 않은 장기적 의제를 지니고 지속적으로 시행하고 있다.그는 Roe 대 Wade가 결정된 1970년대부터 모든 미국 정치에서 토픽 금지를 받아야 한다.
- 배경:인스타라레는 9년 전, 특히 나이얀케스51과 BS24 계정을 광범위하게 사용하다가 발각되어 큰 문제를 일으켰다. (Wipedia의 SPI 사례 참조:Sockpuppet 조사/NYYankees51/Archive).양말 맞추기가 문제였던 유일한 이유는 인스타라레가 정치적으로 편향된 편집을 계속하고 있었기 때문이었다.나는 인스타우라어/NY얀케스51/BS24의 비중립적인 편향을 보여주는 광범위한 편집 목록을 작성할 수 있지만 간결함을 위해 나는 이 남자를 다룬 몇몇 활동적인 관리자들을 간단히 ping할 것이다: 모조워커, HJ 미첼, Jpgordon, James.BWatson, Carrite, NuclearWarfare, Ed Johnston, SerrekOfVulcan, Black Kite, 그리고 Nakon(이제 막 은퇴한)이다.2012년 1월, 나이얀케스51은 3개월 동안 낙태 주제가 금지되었다.[39] 같은 해 말, 나이얀케스51은 모든 LGBT 관련 기사에서 토픽 금지를 받았다.그 토론에서, Carrite는 "NY51은 분명히 POV 전사인데, 어느 순간 그는 그것을 완전히 때려부수고 건설적으로 건설할 것인지 아니면 지구 밖으로 토픽이 금지될 것인지를 스스로 결정해야 할 것이다."라고 말했다.
- 2011년 4월, 나는 인스타라어가 어떻게 정치 행동 위원회인 수전 B와 관련하여 이해충돌을 일으켰는지에 대한 보고서를 작성했다. 앤서니 리스트, 하지만 그와 나만 토론에 참여했어.운동권 단체에 등록된 IP 주소에서 편집한 적이 있고, 계속 부정적인 텍스트를 지우고 긍정적인 텍스트를 추가했다는 것이 요지였다.어제 인스타라어는 긍정적인 텍스트를 추가하고 잘 짜여진 부정적인 텍스트를 삭제하는 등 같은 행동을 재개했다.그 마지막 부분이 우리가 오늘 여기에 있는 이유야.Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 뉴욕 타임즈, USA 투데이, 워싱턴 포스트의 사실적 언급이 "긍정적인 텍스트를 추가"하는 것은 어떤가?주제가 레드의 25%를 주지만 기사 본문의 일부분을 구성하는 레드에서 무게의 감소가 어떻게 이루어지는가?Binksternet은 WP를 준수하지 않는다.AGF.
- 다시, Binksternet은 7-8년 전에 일어났던 일들을 다시 해시려고 하고 있다.브링크스터넷이 그 게임을 하고 싶다면, 나는 그의 방대한 블록 로그를 지적할 수 있다. 다양한 정치 및 낙태 관련 기사와 이전에 연결되지 않았던 관리 요청에 대한 편집.나는 수년 전에 멍청한 짓으로 제재를 받았다.다시 편집할 수 있는 커뮤니티의 신뢰를 되찾았다.Binksternet은 거의 10년 전에 내가 그 가격을 지불한 것들 때문에, 그것이 얼마나 중립적이고 잘 공급되었는지에 상관없이, 정치 기사에 대한 어떤 편집도 받아들일 수 없는 것처럼 행동하고 있다.나는 행동을 변화시켰고 괴롭힘 당하지 않고 앞으로 나아갈 준비가 되어 있다.인스타라레 (대화) 19:04, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 그런데 인스타라레, 그때 이후로 정말 편집 스타일이 바뀌었니?여기 와서 몇 년 동안 사라진 것만으로 지역사회의 신뢰를 완전히 다시 얻으셨나요?당신은 여전히 WP의 상징처럼 보인다.CPUSH, 그리고 당신의 POV는 수년에 걸쳐 여러 편집자들이 당신의 행동에 변화를 가져오도록 당신에게 조언을 제공했지만, 당신은 결코 그것을 마음에 담아두지 않는 것 같다. 우리가 받는 것은 사과와 잠시 동안의 실종, 그리고 나서 당신이 편집하지 않고 같은 방식으로 편집으로 되돌아가는 것뿐이다.어떤 결과적인 변화 약속을 잊으셨나요?나는 네가 외설되었고, 사이트 금지로 고려되었고, 결국 내가 그 조언을 한 지 4일 후에 금지된 주제에 주목하겠다.테리 맥컬리프 기사에 대한 선거운동을 경고했던 오래 전의 충고를 인용하겠다.
인스타우라레, 나는 HJ 미첼이 당신의 편집에 대한 제한을 없앨 때 당신에게 준 충고를 다시 읽어보라고 충고하고 싶다. "...만약 당신이 편지와 정책 정신(및 관련 지침, ArbCom 판결 등)을 모두 지키지 않는 편집을 시작한다면, 머지않아 당신이 지금보다 더 나쁜 입장에 처하게 될 것이라고 의심한다.
그것은 제한사항이다."
WP의 훈계 내용을 다시 확인하겠다.CPUSH : " 위키피디아를 옹호하거나, 특정 의제를 진전시키기 위한 수단으로 사용하는 것은 백과사전을 훼손하고, 협업 편집 과정에 지장을 준다."그것은 내내 당신의 주된 문제였고, 당신의 제재는 그것의 가장 명백한 결과일 뿐이다.이 편집장은 과거에도 여러 차례 추가 제재를 거의 피한 적이 있다.WP가 다루는 기사에 대한 제약이나 더 큰 부메랑이 필요한 시점일 수 있다.ARBAP2는 광범위하게 해석되었다.다른 건 아무것도 이 놈과 연결이 안 되는 것 같아모조워커 (대화) 22:19, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[- 모조워커, 옹호하는 구체적인 예를 지적할 수 있겠나?난 브라이트바트를 인용하는게 아니야.나는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에서 광범위하게 제공되는 편집만 하려고 노력한다.나는 종종 문장 뒤에 여러 개의 참고문헌을 붙인다.인스타라레 (대화) 22:55, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 여기 글렌 벡의 더 블레이즈(The Blaze)와 낙태 반대 단체인 '계획된 부모'의 말을 인용하여, 계획한 부모들이 신생아를 죽이는 것에 대해 자랑하고 있다고 제안하기 위해 기획된 부모로서의 비디오를 편집한 것으로 잘 알려져 있다.[40] 여기서 당신은 앤드류 쿠오모를 비난하고 그가 파문되어야 하는지 아니면 그가 낙태 권리에 찬성하는 것에 대해 나쁜 가톨릭 신자인지에 대한 그들의 생각을 아주 상세하게 살펴보았다.[41] 당신에 의해, 특히 낙태와 관련된 주제에 대해, 문제가 되는 수많은 편집들을 보아왔지만, 이것들은 내가 지금 당장 떠올릴 수 있는 것들뿐이다.스누간스누간 (대화) 23:36, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 만약 당신이 블레이즈가 그 경우에 믿을만한 출처가 아니었다고 생각한다면, 그것은 논의될 수 있다.뉴욕타임즈, AOL, 뉴욕 데일리 뉴스, 폭스 뉴스, Syracuse.com, AP통신 등이 쿠오모 기사의 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 아니라고 생각한다면 당신의 주장을 펴라.Does WP:BRD는 더 이상 적용되지 않고, 우리는 단지 정치인들의 페이지에 광범위하게 소싱된 내용을 추가한 사람을 의제를 가지고 행동한다고 비난할 뿐인가?인스타라레 (대화) 04:01, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 Breitbart 수준의 소스를 추가하지 않았다고 자랑하고 있었지만, 그 경우 당신은 Glenn Beck's The Blaze (절대 쓰레기인)와 지각 있게 편집된 비디오를 출판하는 것으로 알려진 조직의 비디오를 추가했다.스누간스누간 (대화) 13:52, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 만약 내가 자유주의적인 견해를 발전시키는 한 좌파적 동격물(BuzzFeed, Huffington Post)을 인용한다면 아무도 눈 하나 깜짝하지 않을 것이다.하지만 '블레이즈'의 한 인용문은 주제 금지를 보증한다고?그리고 Live Action의 비디오는 연방 항소법원에 의해 개념적으로 편집되지 않은 것으로 결정되었다.하지만 그것들은 당신을 불편하게 하고 당신의 POV를 거스른다.인스타라레 (대화) 21:45, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 당신은 Breitbart 수준의 소스를 추가하지 않았다고 자랑하고 있었지만, 그 경우 당신은 Glenn Beck's The Blaze (절대 쓰레기인)와 지각 있게 편집된 비디오를 출판하는 것으로 알려진 조직의 비디오를 추가했다.스누간스누간 (대화) 13:52, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 만약 당신이 블레이즈가 그 경우에 믿을만한 출처가 아니었다고 생각한다면, 그것은 논의될 수 있다.뉴욕타임즈, AOL, 뉴욕 데일리 뉴스, 폭스 뉴스, Syracuse.com, AP통신 등이 쿠오모 기사의 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 아니라고 생각한다면 당신의 주장을 펴라.Does WP:BRD는 더 이상 적용되지 않고, 우리는 단지 정치인들의 페이지에 광범위하게 소싱된 내용을 추가한 사람을 의제를 가지고 행동한다고 비난할 뿐인가?인스타라레 (대화) 04:01, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 인스타라레, 내가 말하는 것은 기본적으로 HJ 미첼라드가 "목숨을 건드리며" "대상에 대한 우리의 관점이 무엇이든 간에, 아무도 우리가 편집한 페이지나 기사를 통해 그 의견이 무엇인지 알 수 없다"고 당신에게 말한 것이다.넌 그에게 약속을 많이 했어 넌 절대 지키지 않았어 그리고 나한테는 네 안에 있는 그의 AGF를 이용하려는 것처럼 보였어내가 충고했던 것을 다시 한 번 말하겠다: "만약 당신이 강하게 고수하는 신념이 당신의 객관성을 흐리게 하지 않고는, 아마도 당신은 그 기사를 편집하지 말아야 할 것이다 – 적어도 당신이 진정으로 객관적으로 행동하고 있는지 확인하기 위한 많은 자기성찰이 없이는 안 될 것이다.이는 모든 가이드라인과 정책을 한계에 다다르게 하는 것과는 완전히 다른데, 결국 그것은 당신을 더욱 곤경에 빠뜨릴 뿐이다."하지만 분명히 당신은 스스로를 자제할 수 없는 것 같으니, 아마도 마침내 공동체가 그렇게 할 때가 온 것 같다.모조워커 (대화) 00:41, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 모조, 우리 둘 다 "아무도 우리의 편집으로 그 의견이 무엇인지 알 수 없다"는 규칙을 적용한다면, 우리는 아마도 브링크스터넷을 포함한 미국 정치 기사와 관련된 편집자의 80%를 빼낼 것이라는 것을 알고 있다.(이 엄청나게 문제가 되는 편집자는 BLP에 "여성 로비스트와 혼외 성관계에 종사했다"는 말을 덧붙이고 그런 말을 하지 않는 두 가지 출처를 인용한 것은 어떨까?)나는 워싱턴포스트, 뉴욕타임스, 폭스뉴스, 뉴욕데일리뉴스, AP통신 등 다양한 믿을 만한 소식통들과 함께 대대적으로 보도되는 편집, 그리고 온갖 지역 신문과 TV 방송국을 만들어 나 자신을 압박하기 위해 최선을 다한다.내가 브라이트바트를 인용하거나 전혀 인용하지 않는 것처럼 행동하고 있어.인스타라레 (대화) 04:07, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 여기 글렌 벡의 더 블레이즈(The Blaze)와 낙태 반대 단체인 '계획된 부모'의 말을 인용하여, 계획한 부모들이 신생아를 죽이는 것에 대해 자랑하고 있다고 제안하기 위해 기획된 부모로서의 비디오를 편집한 것으로 잘 알려져 있다.[40] 여기서 당신은 앤드류 쿠오모를 비난하고 그가 파문되어야 하는지 아니면 그가 낙태 권리에 찬성하는 것에 대해 나쁜 가톨릭 신자인지에 대한 그들의 생각을 아주 상세하게 살펴보았다.[41] 당신에 의해, 특히 낙태와 관련된 주제에 대해, 문제가 되는 수많은 편집들을 보아왔지만, 이것들은 내가 지금 당장 떠올릴 수 있는 것들뿐이다.스누간스누간 (대화) 23:36, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 모조워커, 옹호하는 구체적인 예를 지적할 수 있겠나?난 브라이트바트를 인용하는게 아니야.나는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에서 광범위하게 제공되는 편집만 하려고 노력한다.나는 종종 문장 뒤에 여러 개의 참고문헌을 붙인다.인스타라레 (대화) 22:55, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 그런데 인스타라레, 그때 이후로 정말 편집 스타일이 바뀌었니?여기 와서 몇 년 동안 사라진 것만으로 지역사회의 신뢰를 완전히 다시 얻으셨나요?당신은 여전히 WP의 상징처럼 보인다.CPUSH, 그리고 당신의 POV는 수년에 걸쳐 여러 편집자들이 당신의 행동에 변화를 가져오도록 당신에게 조언을 제공했지만, 당신은 결코 그것을 마음에 담아두지 않는 것 같다. 우리가 받는 것은 사과와 잠시 동안의 실종, 그리고 나서 당신이 편집하지 않고 같은 방식으로 편집으로 되돌아가는 것뿐이다.어떤 결과적인 변화 약속을 잊으셨나요?나는 네가 외설되었고, 사이트 금지로 고려되었고, 결국 내가 그 조언을 한 지 4일 후에 금지된 주제에 주목하겠다.테리 맥컬리프 기사에 대한 선거운동을 경고했던 오래 전의 충고를 인용하겠다.
아래 논의에 치우치지 않고 인스타라레와 브링크스테넷 모두 SBAL 기사에 대한 진행 중인 편집전을 차단해야 한다. --JBL (토크) 01:34, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 나는 인스타라레에 대한 환상을 멈출 것이다.이해충돌이 입증된 편집자로부터 중립적이지 않은 편집을 되돌리는 것으로 보았지만, 단순하게 그를 되돌리는 것을 중단하고 그 변화에 대해 토론하겠다.브링크스터넷 (대화) 03:22, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 아래는 인스타라어가 편집한 일부 내용에도 불구하고, 위에서 보고된 것은 롤백 남용이며, 롤백을 취소하는 근거가 된다.나는 그것이 이 경우에 있어야 한다고 제안하는 것이 아니라, 오히려 Binksternet이 WP를 다시 검토해야 한다고 제안한다.ROLLOBLE(롤백)은 반달, 트롤, 스팸 발송자 또는 차단 방해를 하는 양말이 아닌 사람에 대해 이러한 종류의 악착같이 도구를 오용하여 단지 검사해야 할 PoV 문제가 잠재적으로 있을 수 있다는 이유만으로 편집을 대량 되돌리기 때문에 Rollblack 비트가 제거될 가능성이 높다. — SMcCandlish lish 😼 11:08, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[
- SMcCandlish, 내가 본 롤백의 오용은 없었다.롤백이라는 용어가 자주 나왔지만 그렇지 않다.Twinkle은 여기 저기 보이는 것처럼 되돌리기 위해 사용되었지만 그것은 롤백으로 태그되지 않았다."태그: 롤백"이 있는 관련 없는 이 편집과 비교해 보십시오.
— 베레안 헌터(토크) 14:18, 2019년 2월 20일 (UTC)[- 그럴 만도 하다.그렇기는 하지만, 이러한 종류의 "역전 쓰나미" 접근법은 애초에 일반적으로 비생산적인 것이며, 브링크스테넷은 이것을 가슴 깊이 새겨야 한다.결국 특정한 편집에 대해 문제가 있다는 것이 증명되는 것은 알려진 반달이나 삭푸펫처럼 선의의 편집자를 취급하는 편집자 상호 작용 문제에 대한 핑계가 아니다. — SMcCandlish lish 😼 00:17, 2019년 2월 21일 (UTC)[
- SMcCandlish, 내가 본 롤백의 오용은 없었다.롤백이라는 용어가 자주 나왔지만 그렇지 않다.Twinkle은 여기 저기 보이는 것처럼 되돌리기 위해 사용되었지만 그것은 롤백으로 태그되지 않았다."태그: 롤백"이 있는 관련 없는 이 편집과 비교해 보십시오.
인스타우라르의 장기 정치 활동가 편집
인스타라레는 수잔 B로부터 무기한 t-banked이다. 앤서니, 낙태, 그리고 1932년 이후의 미국 정치는 모두 여기서 합의에 따라 광범위하게 해석된다.이것은 공동체의 금지사항이며, 결과적으로 WP에 호소될 수 있다.A, 지금부터 6개월도 채 남지 않았다.비쇼넨 토크 17:53, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC) |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
인스타라레는 낙태라는 주제에 대해 수년 동안 중립적이지 않은 편집을 해왔으며, 이해충돌과 지속적으로 주제를 객관적으로 볼 수 없음을 보여 주었다.그는 수잔 B를 변호한다. 앤서니 리스트는 정치 행동 위원회를 나쁘게 보이게 하는 사실과 문구를 삭제하고 긍정적인 측면을 강조하는 방식으로 진행된다.그의 어제 해임은 10년 전으로 거슬러 올라가는 긴 줄의 한 예일 뿐인데, 예를 들면 2011년 3월에 있었던 이와 유사한 해임이다.내가 아는 인스타라어의 첫 번째 SBA 목록 편집은 2009년 4월부터 잘못된 표현과 프로모션으로, SBA 목록의 견해는 2009년 10월 이곳과 이곳에서 목소리를 얻었다.이 예는 최근의 갈등과 관련이 있다 – 인스타라레는 다시 수잔 B를 잘못 표현한다.앤서니가 SBA 리스트를 통해 남긴 유산은 앤서니가 어떻게 '낙태 반대 의견'을 들고 낙태 반대 주장을 펼쳤는지에 대한 이야기를 날조했다(그녀는 그런 일을 한 적이 없다).인스타라레와 동료 여행자들이 야기하는 문제들을 바로잡을 수 있게 하는 것은 여성 투표권의 투사로서 앤서니가 남긴 유산을 거짓으로 공동 선택한 것이다.이 제거는 중립적이지 않았고, 이 추가는 출처에 대한 홍보 오보였다.이 홍보 추가는 불필요한 친종교적 인용구를 삽입한다: "신은 그가 무엇을 하고 있는지 안다."이 편집은 적절한 한정자를 수잔 B에 대한 노골적인 거짓말로 바꾸었다.A자로 서류에 서명하지 않은 앤소니.2010년 7월, 앤소니의 거짓 묘사를 유지하기 위해 인스타라레 한 양말이 나와 편집되었다.[42][43][44][45] 이데올로기 싸움은 어느 한 기사도 뛰어넘어 커졌으므로 인스타우라레 양말 BS24(오른쪽)는 수잔 B 기사를 시작했다. 앤서니 낙태 논쟁은 학문적인 결론보다 최근의 거짓/정치적 견해에 더 신빙성을 부여한다.나는 수잔 B에 대해 세계에서 가장 존경받는 권위의 결론을 더 잘 표현하기 위해 시간이 지나면서 그 기사를 크게 고쳐 썼다.앤서니, 럿거스 역사학자 앤 D. 고든, 내가 시작한 전기야인스타라레는 예를 들어 그녀의 장학금에 의심을 품기 위해 고든에 대한 명확한 묘사를 삭제하면서 나의 변화에 끈질기게 맞서 싸웠다.인스타라레는 안소니에 대한 SBA 리스트의 주장에 대한 학구적인 반대 수위를 낮추려고 끈질기게 노력했다.
인스타라어는 현대 미국 정치에서 금지된 주제여야 한다.브링크스터넷 (대화) 23:12, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- Susan B로부터의 지원 주제 금지.앤서니, 낙태와 모든 미국 정치는 대체로 이해되었다.컬렌328 23:31, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC) 토론하자[ 하라
- 브링크스터넷이 8년 전 편집한 내용을 보면 아직도 원한을 품고 있는 것 같다.수천 개의 편집이 개입된, 그렇게 오래 전에 이루어진 편집에 대해 어떻게 편집자가 주제가 금지될 수 있을까?이는 WP의 예에 지나지 않는다.자기행동.인스타우라어(토크) 23:34, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 인스타라레, 당신은 Binksternet의 2013년 실패한 RFA를 그에 대한 당신의 "증거"의 일환으로 꺼낸 편집자인데, 그래서 당신이 당신의 전체 편집 이력이 면밀히 조사되는 것에 반대한다는 것은 좀 이상한 일이다.나는 방금 지난 달에 당신의 편집 이력을 살펴보았는데, 앤드류 쿰과 관련된 현재 낙태와 관련된 논쟁에 대해 아주 세부적인 세부사항에 들어갔을 때 낙태에 찬성하는 랄프 노섬의 편집 전쟁과 카톨릭 정치인들의 '엑소통'을 포함한 많은 문제 편집들을 보았다.o, 기사의 나머지 부분과 완전히 비례하지 않는다.이것은 최근주의와 과도한 무게감이며, 낙태에 관한 당신의 장기적 POV를 나타낸다.그와 같은 유형의 행동이 재개되었을 때 과거의 행동을 보는 것은 완전히 합법적이다.컬렌렛은328 2019년 2월 18일 01:21로 토론하자(UTC)[ 하라
- Cullen328, 내가 말했듯이, 나는 과거를 재조사하는 것에 관심이 없다. 그러나 만약 나의 신뢰가 거의 10년 전에 편집된 것에 대해 공격당하고 있다면, 공격자의 신빙성을 조사하는 것은 타당해 보인다.랄프 노섬에서 무슨 말을 하는 거야, 난 거기서 되돌리지도 않은 것 같아.내가 앤드류 쿠오모에서 쓴 글이 형편없는 편집이었다고 생각한다면, 편집 내용에 대해 토론해봐.나는 어떤 기사에서든 논란의 여지가 있는 편집이 이제 주제 금지에 걸맞은 중대한 정책 위반이라는 이 생각이 떠밀리는 것을 이해할 수 없다.대담하고, 되돌리고, 토론이 되돌아가고, 공격하고, 금지되었다.인스타라레 (대화) 03:37, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 인스타라레, 당신은 Binksternet의 2013년 실패한 RFA를 그에 대한 당신의 "증거"의 일환으로 꺼낸 편집자인데, 그래서 당신이 당신의 전체 편집 이력이 면밀히 조사되는 것에 반대한다는 것은 좀 이상한 일이다.나는 방금 지난 달에 당신의 편집 이력을 살펴보았는데, 앤드류 쿰과 관련된 현재 낙태와 관련된 논쟁에 대해 아주 세부적인 세부사항에 들어갔을 때 낙태에 찬성하는 랄프 노섬의 편집 전쟁과 카톨릭 정치인들의 '엑소통'을 포함한 많은 문제 편집들을 보았다.o, 기사의 나머지 부분과 완전히 비례하지 않는다.이것은 최근주의와 과도한 무게감이며, 낙태에 관한 당신의 장기적 POV를 나타낸다.그와 같은 유형의 행동이 재개되었을 때 과거의 행동을 보는 것은 완전히 합법적이다.컬렌렛은328 2019년 2월 18일 01:21로 토론하자(UTC)[ 하라
- 지원 – Cullen328의 목록: Susan B로부터의 주제 금지.앤서니, 낙태와 모든 미국 정치는 대체로 이해되었다.이것은 계속되는 장기적 패턴이다.나는 그의 공동체 금지에 반대함으로써 인스타라레를 지지했고, 그가 정말로 그의 방식을 바꾸기를 바랐지만, 나는 마침내 그에게 인내심을 잃었다.모조워커 (대화) 00:41, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 수잔 B의 주제 금지를 지지한다.앤서니, 낙태와 미국 정치, 그리고 WP:RGW. Miniapolis 01:23, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- Susan B에서의 지원 - 주제 금지.앤서니, 모든 정치, 임신, 그리고 성 건강과 관련된 주제들.Cullen328에 따라.그는 평소 자신이 무슨 말을 하는지 잘 알고 있고 나는 아직 그를 잘못 본 적이 없다. - 늑대 01:43, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- Cullen 당 지원하여 시간 싱크를 중지하십시오.레비브 ich 03:22, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 지원 - Cullen당 주제 금지.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 07:02, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 무념무상! 명백한 증거를 조사하지 않았지만 Cullen과 함께 가고 있는 사람들의 지지를 주목하라.토픽 금지는 파괴적인 편집을 위한 것이어야 하지만, 여기에서는 아무도 내가 실제로 파괴적인 편집에 관여하고 생산적인 편집에 관여하지 않는 사례를 제시하지 못했다.인스타라레 (대화) 21:39, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- @Instaurare:3주 전, 낙태에 찬성하는 가톨릭 정치인들의 파문에 글을 추가하셨는데, 일반적인 의료 절차에 찬성하는 앤드루 쿠오모의 입장을 "낙태에 대한 노골적인 지지"라고 표현하기 위해 위키피디아의 목소리를 배치하셨습니다.개인의료선택권을 지원하는 것이 어떻게 '무시하다'는 말처럼 선동적인 단어와 함께 나올 수 있는지, 쿠오모가 지지하는 '낙태권'과 뚜렷한 개념인 '낙태권'을 왜 공갈했는지 설명하지 않은 것 같다.(이 문장은 이 뉴욕 타임즈 기사에 인용되는데, 여기서 "무시하다"라는 단어는 결코 나타나지 않으며, "낙태 지지"라는 것이 없기 때문에, 쿠오모는 결코 그런 입장을 가진 사람으로 묘사되지 않는다.)
- 그리고 인터넷을 통해 내가 어떻게 그 편집을 찾아냈는지 심리학적으로 알아내기 전에, 그건 컬런 때문이 아니었어.위는 지난 10년 동안 놀라운 숫자의 한 예다.정치 기사에 상당한 양의 텍스트를 삽입할 때마다 편집한 이력은 이 주제에 덧붙이는 거의 모든 것이 여러분과 같은 사람들 때문에 역설적인 것이 되지 않은 것을 포함하고 있다는 것을 증명한다: 보그 스탠더드 극단주의.2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:92A:8965:B5B8:6395 (대화) 22:43, 2019년 2월 18일(UTC) - 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:92A:8965:B5B8:6395(대화)는 이 주제 이외의 다른 편집은 거의 또는 전혀 하지 않았다.
- 정당 노선에 따르면, 브링크스테넷 자신은 정확히 그것 때문에 RfA가 실패한 정치 활동가다.그는 또한 2011년 위키프로젝트 보수주의 전체를 삭제 대상으로 지명했다.그래서 이건 냄비 블랙이라고 부르는 주전자의 이름이야.그러나 보수주의자들은 덜 많고, 특히 낙태 반대 입장은 인기가 없기 때문에 마을 사람들의 의견은 분명하다.인스타라레, 미안한 친구여, 그런데 나가셨군요. --Pudeo (토크) 22:22, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 지지 나는 이것이 더 잘 처리될 수 있었다는 느낌을 가지고 있고, 나는 그것이 특정한 정치적 성향과 아무 관련이 없다고 생각한다 – 인스타라레에 의해 게시된 최근의 확산은 중립적인 관점에 부합하지 않으며 나는 그것들이 롤백되거나 이전 역사를 고려할 때 주제 금지에 문제가 없다.SportingFlyerT·C 22:33, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 지원(비관리자).인스타우레 편집은 문제가 있고, 오랫동안 진행되어 왔으며, 계속된다.나 또한 이 토론에서 인스타라레의 행동에 대해, 자기 편을 들지 않는 것을 "무심하다"고 하고, 제안된 주제 금지안에 찬성하지 않는 사람은 증거를 보지 않았다고 비난하는 등, 곤혹스러워하고 있다.그런 종류의 행동은 인스타라어가 문제가 "다른 사람들"에게만 있다고 생각한다는 것을 보여주며, 따라서 만약 주제 금지가 주어지지 않는다면 같은 행동이 계속될 것임을 나타낸다.제피즈 (대화) 22:56, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- Cullen328에 의해 수정된 지원 주제 금지.나는 인스타라레의 이전 편집 이력과 반복된 주제 금지 위반에 대해 잘 알고 있다.[46][47][48].달라진 것은 인스타라어가 장기간 POV를 강행하고 편집 부실한 행동을 가한 논란거리 뿐.- MrX 🖋 23:18, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 지원 - Cullen 당.그리고 나와 같은 이유를 "무심하다"고 표현한 나 자신과 다른 사람들을 언급하는 것은 WP를 위반하는 것이다.NPA. 자신의 의견이 우연히 그것을 먼저 표현하게 된 다른 사람과 공유된다는 이유만으로 "무심하다"고 말하는 것은 완전한 논리다.넌 그걸 쳐야 해.FWIW, 인스타라레, 나도 낙태를 반대한다.넌 내가 여기서 만든 어떤 편집본으로도 그걸 알 수 없어. 왜?왜냐하면 나는 정치를 편집하지 않기 때문이다.종교 음악 이외에는 종교를 편집하지 않는다.위에서 인용한 HJ Mitchell의 충고에 비추어 그것에 대해 생각해 보라.IDegon 출신 John (토크) 23:51, 2019년 2월 18일 (UTC)[
- 이것을 다음과 같이 부릅시다.위키백과에서 보수적인 것으로 확인된 편집자들을 추방하기 위해 브링크스테르넷과 다른 많은 사람들이 수년간 정치적 동기를 부여한 십자군원정의 절정이다.2010년대 초, 보수적인 편집자들은 분명히 소수였지만 입장을 고수할 수 있었고 그들의 주장을 펴는 것이 허용되었다.진보적인 편집자들은 사실 공감대를 형성하기 위해 노력해야 했다.양쪽 모두 그것을 해결 할 수 있다.약간 공평한 것 같은 느낌이 들었다.하지만 균형을 제공하는 대부분의 사람들은 지금 사라져 버렸다. 사이트를 뛰쳐나가거나, 아니면 그 모든 것이 다 닳아서 흔적도 없이 사라져 버렸다.
- 정치 기사의 모든 편집자는 어떤 종류의 안건을 가지고 있다.스스로에게 거짓말을 하고 있다는 것을 인정하려고 하지 않는다면.한때는 편집한 내용을 백업하고, 쓰라리기는 했지만 결국 어떻게 해서든 스스로 해결한 전투에 기꺼이 시간을 할애했던 모든 쪽의 편집자들이었다.나는 항상 내가 Binksternet과 다른 사람들과 함께 현미경 아래 있었다는 것을 알고 있었고 나의 모든 행동을 지켜보고 나의 토크 페이지를 스토킹했다.나는 가능한 한 좌편향적인 아웃렛을 사용하여 편집한 내용을 광범위하게 소싱하려고 노력해왔다.하지만 그건 중요하지 않아.
- 내가 정말로 받고 있는 범죄는, 브링크스테넷에 따르면, "진보주의자와 진보주의자들을 가능한 한 나쁘게 보이게 하는 것과 동시에, 보수주의자와 반동주의자들을 가능한 한 좋게 보이게 하는 것"이다.브링크스터넷의 이 직설적인 인용은 어떤가? "나는 내가 좋아하지 않는 주제에 부정적인 자료를 기사에 넣은 내 자신이 유죄라고 생각한다.나도 같은 이유로 그러한 기사에서 복어를 제거하지만, 내 방어로, 내 동기는 적절한 균형을 잡으려는 것이지, 적절한 균형을 잡으려는 것이 아니다." -- Binksternet, 2014.Binksternet과 나의 유일한 차이점은 그가 자유주의자이고 나는 그렇지 않다는 것이다.그는 기사에 대해 그런 접근법을 취하는 것이 허용되지만 나는 그렇지 않다.그는 계속할 것이고, 아마도 언젠가 관리자가 될 것이고, 나는 불길에 휩싸일 것이다.그는 그 책에 있는 모든 정책 위반을 저지를 수 있지만 아무도 눈 하나 깜짝하지 않을 것이다.WP:AGF는 보수주의자로 블랙리스트에 오른 모든 편집자에게 죽었다.
- WP:NPOV는 예전에는 그것을 떨쳐내야 성취할 수 있는 고귀한 목표였는데, 이제는 죽어서 묻혔고, 정통으로 대체되었다.문서화된 바와 같이, 위키피디아의 77%는 1%의 편집자가 쓰고 있다.대부분의 위키백과 편집자들은 남성이다.대부분의 위키백과 편집자들은 백인이다.그리고 위키피디아는 편파적이다.
- 다양한 관점이 없는 백인, 남성, 자유주의자, 섬나라 같은 위키피디아를 계속 만들고 싶다면 주제 금지를 바로 진행하십시오.많은 분들이 정말 원하는 겁니다.당신은 "muh batterface"의 사고방식에 대해 계속해서 말할 수 있고, 나는 얼마나 끔찍하고, 끔찍하고, 편견이 심하고, 한심한 편집자인가.하지만 위키피디아가 정통적인 과두 정치라는 것은 분명하다.감히 배를 흔들면 벌을 받을 것이다.인스타라레 (토크) 07:25, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 정말? 객관적으로 잘못된 관점을 밀고 나갔다가 호명될 때 다른 사람들이 편파적이라고 공격한다면 어떤 일이 일어날 것으로 예상하십니까? 72.69.98.176 (대화) 15:00, 2019년 2월 19 (UTC)[
- Cullen이 정의한 주제 금지를 지지하십시오. 주제 금지 지지자들에 의해 만들어진 거의 모든 요점을 강화하는 바로 위의 놀라운 소리 때문도 아니다. ("Martyr"?)그리 많지 않다.) --보나데아 기부 토크 07:34, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- 질문하다.암 폴과 낙태에 대한 주제 금지에 대한 많은 의견 일치가 있는 것이 분명하다.인스타라레는 수잔 B를 편집하지 않았다. 2016년 9월부터 앤서니, 그래서 아마도 그것은 그것 자체의 주제 금지를 할 가치가 없을까?당신들은 낙태와 1932년 이후의 미국 정치로부터 무기한 t-ban이 요구되는 것을 커버할 것이라고 생각하는가?대부분 그렇게 한다면, 나는 6개월 안에 항소할 수 있도록, 그런 금지령으로 종결할 것이다. (수전 B. 앤서니 리스트는 분명히 낙태 금지에 의해 가려질 것이다.) @Cullen328: 주제 금지에 대한 거의 모든 지지가 당신을 참조하거나 인용하기 때문에, 특히 당신에게 묻고 있다.이론적으로 나는, 아니 어떤 행정관도, 두 가지 주제가 모두 ArbCom의 재량적 제재를 받고 있기 때문에, 낙태와 암폴에 대해 임의로 금지할 수 있다. 하지만 나는 그렇게 하지 않을 것이다. 여기서 논평한 사람들에게는 꽤 무례한 일일 것이다.비쇼넨탈크 11:49, 2019년 2월 19일(UTC)
- 비쇼넨, 나는 수잔 B에 반대하지 않는다.앤서니는 주제 금지 대상에서 제외되었지만, 만약 이 편집자가 그 전기에 대해 왜곡을 더하기 시작한다면, 우리는 다시 이곳으로 돌아올 것이다.컬렌328 16:09, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC) 토론하자[
- @Bishonen:제재의 예방적 목표를 달성하는 가장 제한적인 조치를 취함으로써 지지한다.내가 보기엔 TBAN을 위반하지 않는 SBA 기사와 TBAN을 위반하지 않는 다른 기사에 편집될 가능성이 있는 것으로 보이며, 이것은 실제로 TBAN에 대한 신실한 준수를 결정하는 꽤 좋은 방법일 수 있다.어쨌든, 나는 시간 삭감을 끝내는 모든 행정 조치를 지지할 것이다.만약 우리가 다시 여기에 온다면, 다음 번에는 더 쉬운 결정을 내릴 수 있을 거야.레비브 ich 17:41, 2019년 2월 19일. 어떤 신참이 서명을 잊어버린 다음 자신의 서명을 추가하기 위해 비공개 토론을 수정하는가?! Leviv ich 19:20, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)[
- (위쪽은 누구세요?어쨌든 컬런에게 응할 것이다.)나는 그가 왜 그렇게 했는지는 잘 모르겠어, 컬런, 그것이 낙태 금지로 자연스럽게 다루어질 "낙태에 관한 견해"라는 짧은 섹션에 내용을 추가하지 않는 한 말이야.하지만 위험성이 있다고 생각하는 것처럼 들리고, 너무 많은 사람들이 동의했기 때문에, 나는 이 금지를 세 갈래로 만들 것이다.앤서니, 낙태, 그리고 암 폴.여긴 감독관 금지!비쇼넨 토크 17:50, 2019년 2월 19일 (UTC)
셰본실바의 신간 기사
셰본실바 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
WT에는 긴 나사산이 있다.이에 대한 NPPR, 그러나 요컨대 쉐본실바는 다양한 문제를 안고 지리학 스터브를 대량으로 만들어 왔다는 것이다.여러 사람이 코칭해 속도를 줄이도록 유도하고 있음에도 불구하고, 그들은 계속해서 페이지들을 대량으로 만들고 있다.나는 그들이 새로운 페이지를 만드는 속도를 제한하는 커뮤니티의 제재가 필요하다고 생각한다. 그들은 그렇지 않으면 그들의 편집 패턴을 피드백에 적용할 능력이 없어 보이고 그들은 유사한 문제를 가지고 있는 수백 페이지를 더 만들려고 하는 것처럼 보이기 때문이다.power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:54, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)+[
- 완성되었다.나는 새로운 기사의 창조를 중단했다.고마워요.셰본실바 (대화) 17:58, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- 배경은 다음 스레드를 참조하십시오.위키백과 대화:새로운 페이지 순찰/검토자#Shevonsilva가 작성한 Stubs.이곳에서 셰본실바의 주요 활동은 여러 나라의 애매한 행정 구역에 한 줄짜리 스텁을 만드는 것이다.나는 몇몇 사람들이 이러한 새로운 창작물을 좋아하지 않는다는 것을 알지만, 사실 나는 그것들이 유용하다는 것을 안다. 왜냐하면 이 기사들은 처음부터 시작하는 것보다 점진적으로 확장하는 것이 더 쉽기 때문이다.그것들은 소스가 되었지만, 쉐본실바가 자동 조종이 되지 않아, 그들은 새로운 페이지 순찰 대기 행렬로 가게 되고, 이렇게 해서 나는 그들을 알게 되었다.문제는 이런 글들이 종종 심각한 오류를 담고 있다는 것이다.참조된 NPPR 스레드를 여러 가지 예와 함께 시작했는데(Shevonsilva의 편집이 아니라 수정 사항이라는 점에 유의함): 아르헨티나 지방의 템플릿이 있는 콜롬비아의 폐지된 부서, 피지 분과에 관한 기사(모두 이 템플릿이 있는 5개 분과에 대한 기사), 기사의 이름이 c와 일치하지 않는다.기존 기사의 복제품.다음은 예시 집합에 불과하며, 동일한 스레드 및 사용자 토크에서 더 많은 예시를 찾아볼 수 있다.셰본실바셰본실바의 반응은 실수를 받아들이고 이를 바로잡겠다고 약속하는 것이었다.(예를 들어 같은 NPPR 실이 나에게 기사 순찰을 중단하라는 암시를 담고 있는 경우도 있다) 그러나 건설적인 반응은 더 전형적이다.문제는 아무것도 변하지 않는다는 것이다.그들은 전형적으로 그들이 왜 망쳤는지 이유를 들고 (예를 들어, 아르헨티나 템플릿이 피지 기사에 추가되었을 때 이슈를 캐싱하는 것) 문제를 수정하지만, 다음날에는 다른 일이 일어나고 (다른) 중대한 오류가 있는 새로운 기사들이 메인 스페이스로 가서 새로운 페이지 패트롤러들에게 추가 작업을 더한다.바로 오늘 그들의 기사 중 몇 개는 (나에 의해서가 아니라) 초안 공간으로 옮겨졌는데, 출처가 기사의 내용을 확인하지 않았고, 행정 구역이 실제로 존재하는지 알 길이 없었기 때문이다.기사에 중대한 오류가 없도록 속도를 늦추고 작업흐름을 바꾸라는 지시를 반복받았고, 이에 대한 반응도 있었지만, 그런 일은 일어나지 않고 있다.보아하니 2014년 이전 ANI에서 이슈가 논의되었고, 2014년 이전 Anna Frodesiak에 의해 동일한 행동에 대해 사용자가 이미 차단되었다.나는 그들이 좋은 의도를 가지고 있고 믿음직스럽게 행동한다는 것에 대해 의심하지 않지만, 역량 문제는 재발하고 너무 심각해서 우리가 뭔가를 해야 할 필요가 있다.메인 스페이스에서 기사 작성이 금지된 주제가 도움이 될 수도 있고, 블록을 늘려야 하는 것일 수도 있고, 확실하지는 않지만, 이렇게 상황을 방치할 수는 없다. --Ymblanter (대화) 19:48, 2019년 2월 17일 (UTC)[
- I feel like I am very bad person by going to help wikipedia, and by doing so it will help to third party software tools like Grammerly by serving as a data repository, for example, to provide accessibility features too (Note: data mining is done by topics not the article content), and, these third party tools can also find a different repository too. It may be needed to understand that filling this large gap needs a heavy work which was alonely completed by me (effectively upto countries starting from letter A to M (partially inclusively) and almost African countries, and, I also appreciate the support given by reviewers. I had to create plethora of articles in order to complete this gap and some technical errors were unvoidable due to the larger number of articles. There are a few pending articles remaining and I am not bothered about those. Anyway, in the end, I really feel bad after giving much effort to complete this knowledge gap by thinking I was doing to good service to the world.Shevonsilva (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Shevonsilva, this issue has been brought to ANI not so that you will feel like a bad person but that you will listen to your fellow editors and see where there are problems with your article creations. Do you understand Ymblanter's points about problems with your article stubs? Because it's not just a matter of you saying you're sorry, you have to understand what the problems are so they won't happen in the future. LizRead! Talk! 02:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. To be honest, the issue is there are many articles missing, there may be a chance of 1-10% error may happen due to human error (I may not notice due to consistent pattern) or machine error (unmodified versions are poping up or cursor in the wiki editor is moving without my consent) [That is another reason I did not request auto-patrol permission as I needed other reviewers eyes too to complete these missing articles.] I have already changed the flow of creating articles that I will double check the references with spelling variances with different versions of publications of place names (that may be the reason due to which they are not touched before). I can try my best to gurentee minimisation of errors in this missing articles if I am going to finish the rest. Shevonsilva (talk) 02:56, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Shevonsilva, this issue has been brought to ANI not so that you will feel like a bad person but that you will listen to your fellow editors and see where there are problems with your article creations. Do you understand Ymblanter's points about problems with your article stubs? Because it's not just a matter of you saying you're sorry, you have to understand what the problems are so they won't happen in the future. LizRead! Talk! 02:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - this has nothing to do with being a bad person or a good person, simply about paying attention to what one is doing. Having created numerous geographical stub articles, I believe in their importance to the WP project, but I also understand the necessity of accuracy. There are other editors who have made "human error" mistakes, and when they are pointed out, work diligently to avoid making the same mistakes again. That cannot be said of Shevonsilva. They continue to make the same errors over and over again: creation of pages (using dab) which already exist, faulty referencing, spelling errors in article titles, etc. It would be one thing if, after having been informed of the corrections needed this editor then showed a propensity to abiding by the correct procedure. However, this editor instead seems to show the need to simply plow through creating inaccurate stubs regardless of accuracy. They seem to pull references from other articles, without verifying the validity of those sources, or whether or not those sources exist or not. And while they are polite and civil in their interactions, the issues persist.Onel5969 TT me 04:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ongoing problem. Shevonsilva started by creating dozens of articles on obscure units of measurement. Each was copied from a very dubious book (Imaginatorium did a source analysis here). Shevonsilva deletes talk page comments so it is not easy to link to the many discussions on their talk about the problems. My sandbox shows most of the original articles with working from five editors in the sandbox and its talk. Other editors had to do a lot of work to remove misleading information from stub articles. Johnuniq (talk) 04:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. I already understood the complications. As I mentioned before I already changed the flow of creations to assure minimum or very low errors. Anyway, I have stoped contributions for the moment as I got a surgery in my right hand and it is very hard to involve in contributions with a single hand. I will try to avoid future errors. Thanks. Shevonsilva (talk) 14:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see need for any action unless this resumes. DGG ( talk ) 00:48, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
User:Jessewaugh canvassing editors who have edited Talk:Mark Dice asking them to look at the AfD for Jesse Waugh
Consensus is that Jessewaugh should be site banned. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Please excuse any potential canvassing, but I read your comments on the Mark Dice talk page, and I'm wondering if you might be willing to take a look at the second AfD of the article about me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Waugh, which I feel was the subject of a deliberate take-down by Wikipedia editing group "Art + Feminism" because my gender and race do not serve their quotas of representation on Wikipedia. The two most notable sources for the article in question had already been vetted in a previous AfD as having satisfied the notability requirement before the second AfD.
Jesse" [49]
Doug Weller talk 19:24, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Obvious canvassing and COI, but since the AfD was closed nearly a year ago, and isn't going to be overturned even if it goes to DRV, I'm not sure what they're hoping to achieve. I'm guessing the obvious action is to TBAN Mr Waugh about anything related to his own article. Incidentally, is anyone else mildly amused by the irony of someone claiming an article was deleted because it's about a white male? Black Kite (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Jesse Waugh has been deleted, recreated, and salted repeatedly since 2013. Somewhat confused as to why they're canvassing, as the last AFD closed in March of 2018? But clearly, based on "excuse any potential canvassing", they know that its against policy.Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- You guys are so horrible. The person who got the article about me deleted canvassed an army of people to vote delete on the AfD, but when I canvas it’s suddenly against policy. Jessewaugh (talk) 20:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Jessewaugh Can you find/provide evidence of that claim? Please attach diffs. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 20:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- It’s in the AfD discussion record. The pot calling the kettle black when he solicited WikiBigWigs to vote delete. It really was a politically motivated takedown. Jessewaugh (talk) 20:28, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Of course they're canvassing — they're a painter! *ba dum tsch* —{{u Goldenshimmer}} (they/their)|😹|✝️|John 15:12|☮️|🍂|T/C 20:13, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Lol 😂 Jessewaugh (talk) 20:24, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - I may not know the whole story here, but it seems to me that there are two separate issues:
- Is the artist known as Jesse Waugh notable enough to have a Wikipedia page? I would say "Possibly", whilst concurring that the version that was deleted didn't demonstrate notability and was borderline promotional.
- A user knowingly created/edited an article about himself, can't see what was wrong with doing that, and is now seeking support to get it restored. It seems to me that the most effective way to deal with that issue is to block the user for a lengthy period (if not permanently). At the same time, there may be someone who is prepared to do the work to create a decent article on this artist - people can, after all, become notable over time. So let's just make sure members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts (or whatever group is most appropriate) are aware of the controversy. Deb (talk) 20:34, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- I did not create the article and please don’t block me. Jessewaugh (talk) 21:59, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment ooh, several users were canvassed after a long period of inactivity after a block threat from two different admins, and as pointed out above the user knew it was canvassing: Special:Contributions/Jessewaugh. DRV would have been the proper channel and it would have been easily endorsed there. I'm satisfied with a WP:NOTHERE block. SportingFlyer T·C 21:06, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Jessewaugh: What happened here was not canvassing. Theredproject contacted a single person, and asked for impartial advice on how to proceed. In fact, Theredproject said posting there on that talk page...and not the AfD...was fine. This isn't canvassing. Please see Wikipedia:Canvassing#Inappropriate_notification to gain a better understanding of what canvassing is here. I don't see any "army of people" being canvassed. If you have diffs to show otherwise, please provide them. Second, rather than attacking the motives of people "behind the deletion", you should be finding reliable, secondary sources attesting to your fame. The more sources such as this that you have the more impossible it is for us not to have an article about you. If those sources can't be found, we're back to square one and the AfD stands. I remind you you are already on a final warning for personal attacks. If you're not clear about what a personal attack is considered to be here, then please read Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack?. Calm, rational discussion is needed here. Not speculations about the political motivations of editors here. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes there was also perfectly fine notification of previous participants of the AfDs [50]. (Well at least the text seems perfectly fine and suggests the selection criteria was fine, I haven't checked to make sure it wasn't selective.) Meanwhile, there's this Special:Contributions/81.44.32.50 [51] which is clear cut inappropriate canvassing. (I have no idea how those editors were selected but even if their selection was somehow appropriate, the message was clearly not neutral.) To be fair, I think that canvassing also spectacularly backfired, and we have no way of knowing whether it could have been a false flag attack so we can't say for sure it was people on Jessewaugh's 'side'. Ultimately however, I think the AfD demonstrated one key thing namely that canvassing doesn't generally work. Especially in cases like this. The AfD happened because it was the correct result based on the sources etc at the time. Nil Einne (talk) 07:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've read all of the comments in this ANI complaint but I'm not sure what is being called for here. There are claims of an infraction by Jessewaugh who is asking not to be blocked and there is an ongoing discussion with this editor. It seems like there is no urgent or immediate need for action as Jessewaugh is being caught up to be speed on standard Wikipedia policies and practices. Needlesstosay, there is no conspiracy or expose required for standard operating procedure. Liz Read! Talk! 05:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Because his act is not new. Take a look at the AFD for his article -- a quick skim will do -- to see that this isn't his first rodeo. --Calton Talk 07:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd support a long or indef block for WP:NOTHERE and personal attacks. I have no problem with a topic ban of Jessewaugh from anything to do with themselves excepting BLP-vios obviously, although it's likely to have the same effect. While the canvassing is concerning, especially since the editor clearly knows it's inappropriate and there has previously been canvassing which appeared to be trying to support Jessewaugh's side i.e. keeping the article albeit not clearly linked to them (the only previous canvassing that I can see clearly linked to Jessewaugh is this dumbness [52]), the personal attacks are IMO much more concerning by this stage. Jessewaugh has already been told multiple times [53][54][55] (coming in part from this ANI thread Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive979#Jesse Waugh AfD) that crap like this [56][57][58] is unacceptable. Yet in the canvassing they repeat the same sort of stuff [59] impugning the motives of other editors with zero evidence. Even above, they continue to make accusations of a "
politically motivated takedown
". The latest messages are a little less extreme then the previous ones, they seem to have cut out the attacks based on where people live for example, and so if this was a constructive editor who let emotion of a COI get the better of them, perhaps a warning or short block would be sufficient. But Jessewaugh has done nothing since the previous AfD. Clearly they aren't here for anything productive. Nil Einne (talk) 09:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)- I have notified Theredproject of this discussion as they were named
, and even before that,and this was because their actions ware called into question by Jessewaugh without direct naming but with it being clear who was referred to. I have notified Ad Orientem as they were the one who gave Jessewaugh a final warning for personal attacks. I have notified 104.163.147.121 and 81.44.32.50 as even though their contrib history suggest it's very unlikely whoever is behind those IPs will ever see the messages, I did mention their actions in this thread. I have not notified Drmies as although they also sort of gave a final warning to Jessewaugh and their actions sort of mentioned and likewise DGG, I felt it was unnecessary given the minor mention and unlikelihood anyone would call into question their actions. Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk) 10:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)- IP 104 is now editing as ThatMontrealIP--Theredproject (talk) 15:43, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really have anything to say here other than the contrast between Theredproject and Jessewaugh, in terms of their intentions, contributions and interest in the project is very, very large. A not here block would be appropriate for JW, given the long term single-minded promotional use of the wiki, and the repeated insults towards other editors.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 15:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- IP 104 is now editing as ThatMontrealIP--Theredproject (talk) 15:43, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I have notified Theredproject of this discussion as they were named
- @Jessewaugh: Hi Jesse, I suspect this is heading towards your account being blocked as not being here to contribute to an encyclopedia. This is mostly because a quick scan of your contributions show every single contribution you have made to Wikipedia in the last 12 months has consisted of complaining about Jesse Waugh being deleted. It's on you to explain what you're actually here to do other than Right this Great Wrong. Fish+Karate 10:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- EVERYONE here is pushing an agenda. In fact, it’s patently obvious that many are working in conjunction - and evidence would suggest they are being paid as part of a quasi-military / intelligence offensive to skew the information contained in Wikipedia in the direction they require for their (your) collective objectives. Jessewaugh (talk) 11:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Someone needs to tell Jimbo my check from the intelligence community hasn't arrived this month NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- This month? I've been here for over a decade. Maybe I haven't done much, but I guess I regularly push agendas like this. I figure I'm very rich now once they fix whatever problem stopped them ever sending one. Well to be honest I'd prefer a bank deposit. Either way, as a "quasi-military / intelligence offensive", I assume this post is enough for them to recognise their mistake and start to send me my cheques or bank in my money. Mine haven't changed in ages so I'm sure they can find it in their files. Yeah! On a more serious note, this pushes me even more to a indef or site ban. I mean a topic ban will still be okay, but their earlier comments suggested someone with a certain POV that isn't particularly welcome but could theoretically make productive contributions if kept away from problems areas. The latest comment is either pure trolling or suggests a POV so out of touch with reality that I'm not sure they can ever be constructive anywhere. Nil Einne (talk) 15:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Someone needs to tell Jimbo my check from the intelligence community hasn't arrived this month NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- EVERYONE here is pushing an agenda. In fact, it’s patently obvious that many are working in conjunction - and evidence would suggest they are being paid as part of a quasi-military / intelligence offensive to skew the information contained in Wikipedia in the direction they require for their (your) collective objectives. Jessewaugh (talk) 11:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Why are we still having this discussion? JW wrote
he solicited WikiBigWigs to vote delete
not far above this (andEVERYONE here is pushing an agenda
immediately above), essentially admitting to being WP:NOTHERE. Someone should just block him. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC) - @Jessewaugh: Myself and others noted the problems with personal attacks. Yet, your very first rejoinder since this was raised, you accuse everyone of pushing an agenda and working in conjunction against you? There is no possible way this turns out well for you if your only attempts at rectifying this great wrong is to insult everyone. You're beyond your last chance at this point. I would not at all be surprised if an administrator blocks you right now. Drop the stick, and back away. Come back with reliable, secondary sources that attest to your fame. How about a major newspaper article? Doing anything else will just make it worse for you. If you get blocked, creating another account to circumvent the block and try to get your article undeleted will not fix the problem for you. So it comes down to this; why are you here? If you're here to work collaboratively on this project and work with us here rather the insulting all of us in an attempt to have your way, then you are quite welcome here. If instead you're just going to insult everyone here, this ends in a block and your article will never be restored anyway. Your choice. If you're really here to get your article undeleted, you'd better rethink your plan. Your current plan is abysmally failing. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I have blocked for 1 week for personal attacks, while this discusssion is still ongoing. Any admin who deems it appropriate, feel free to extend or shorten the block. Lectonar (talk) 13:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- The bizarre and obvious sock- and meat-puppetry in support of the various incarnations of the Jesse Waugh article that marked both Articles for deletion/Jesse R. Waugh and Articles for deletion/Jesse Waugh (2nd nomination) strongly indicate that Jessewaugh is back to his old tricks. The reason he was already aware of the no-canvassing rule undoubtedly comes from the warning that his canvassing alter-ego aka 81.44.32.50 received here in March 2018. For the whole sordid background, see this SPI and this one. Note also that the personal attacks/conspiracy theories by the various SPA IPs in those discussions are virtually identical to the ones made by Jessewaugh here at ANI. Incidentally, the first attempt to create an article on the subject was circa 24 May 2013. It was deleted as a creation by one of the dozens of socks of Nickaang who ran a paid editing operation. At the very least Jessewaugh should be permanently topic banned from anything to do with the artist Jesse Waugh. Voceditenore (talk) 14:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC) Updated by Voceditenore (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- "Bizarre", you say? A Dolphin (squeek?) 16:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don’t have anything to add here, that hasn’t been said here, or in the AFD. He has repeatedly made personal ad hominem attacks against me [60][61]. This is harassment. He has proven again and again that he is WP:NOTHERE in good faith. Hijiri 88 said it best: “Why are we still having this discussion?” --Theredproject (talk) 15:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Other evidence for an indefinite WP:nothere block, (above and beyond the personal attacks) include the many years of Jesse Waugh articles, and the time consumed taking them down:
- Jesse R. Waugh (artist)
- Jesse Waugh (artist)
- Jesse R Waugh
- ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:21, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- So that's Jesse Waugh, Jesse R. Waugh, Jesse Waugh (artist), Jesse R Waugh, Jesse R. Waugh (artist): five articles, six protections, five deletions, two SPIs, and two AfDs. Now to calculate the sheer number of editors and their precious time and energy that they all took up between them.... ——SerialNumber54129 16:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Add to this list Jesse Robert Waugh, created by an editor in April 2016 who was almost certainly a sock of someone. However, note that unlike the other 4, Jesse R. Waugh (artist) and Jesse Waugh (artist) were never actually created. They were pre-emptively salted. Voceditenore (talk) 20:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposed site ban
- Propose site-ban per my calculations above which I gave up on when it got to 50. And the litany IV lists below. And also because, no IV, it does not seem to have been officially proposed, although it was mentioned as a likelihood by Nil Einne above. ——SerialNumber54129 16:53, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support site ban (assuming someone has already proposed it): let's see, we have canvassing, conspiracy advocacy, repeatedly not getting the point, conflict-of-interest editing, and just the whole idea of gender equality and feminism being a quota-filling exercise, which any reasonable person should find incredibly offensive. This person is not here to build an encyclopedia, pretty much the closest to a textbook case I've ever seen. Go write a blog; if the artist becomes notable someone else will write about them. But they'll have to ask an admin to get them started, these titles are now regex blacklisted. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support I've said enough already although the list of creations makes it even more clear cut since even their minor historic edits unrelated to their article can't outweigh the amount of our time they've wasted trying to create an article on themselves. Nil Einne (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support Given the additional evidence provided by Serial, Montreal, et. al., and the editor's unwillingness to engage in appropriate editing, it's clear cut now that a site ban is appropriate and in fact overdue. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support after multiple warnings, personal attacks and deletion discussions, all of which is built around self-promotion, it's time for the time-wasting to stop.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Ivanvector; this is ridiculous. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support I will add I was not canvased, but yes it does appear canvasing occurred.Slatersteven (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support Enough is enough. A Dolphin (squeek?) 19:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support Jessewaugh makes a very convincing case above for why he should be shown the door. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 20:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Confirming my support mentioned above. (non-admin) SportingFlyer T·C 21:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support site ban (or at a minimum an indefinite block). The sole purpose of this user on Wikipedia (either under this account or sock accounts) from 2012 to the present day has been to promote himself. The result has been 4 articles about him created under multiple variations of his name (in some cases more than once) and all deleted and salted. Three AfDs, two of which were infested with sock puppets resulting in two ANI reports and two sockpuppet investigations. Relentless canvassing and serious personal attacks on other editors which has continued to the present day and even in this very ANI discussion. The sheer amount of editors' and administrators' time that he has wasted is appalling. He's not here to build an encyclopedia and never will be. Voceditenore (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm glad you mentioned User:Cinesis, an account that seems emblematic of these shenanigans. It's also from 2012, which shows real determination over time.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:33, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, yes, it's quite obvious who Cinesis is, for reasons which I won't go into here. The irony of all this is that Jessewaugh blames the deletions of articles about him on a "plot" by the editors of Art+Feminism but three articles about him (Jesse Waugh in its first incarnation, Jesse R Waugh, and Jesse R. Waugh) were all deleted in 2013 before Art+Feminism came into being in 2014. The first two were definitely "paid for", created both here and transwiki by Nickaang's paid editing sockfarm. I strongly suspect the third one and Jesse Robert Waugh were also paid for. Obviously not wise purchases. Voceditenore (talk) 08:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC) Updated by Voceditenore (talk) 15:17, 21 February 2019 (UTC)<
- I'm glad you mentioned User:Cinesis, an account that seems emblematic of these shenanigans. It's also from 2012, which shows real determination over time.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:33, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support site ban Clearly not here to build the encyclopedia. Clearly here only to cause further disruption. Clearly thinks the community is "horrible" for placing our policies and guidelines ahead of his agenda(s) Dlohcierekim(talk) 17:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I hear WordPress has reasonable rates, tough I imagine a blog there lacks the exposure of Wikipedia. Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:30, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support: Clear disruption, express declarations of WP:NOTHERE/WP:COI objectives, hostile responses to any contravening opinion and WP:PA's in reaction to every community effort to help them acclimate to our policies and processes, consistent efforts to canvas and otherwise game process to restore (and then presumably WP:OWN) an article about themselves. Snow let's rap 18:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support: Unmistakably, self-admittedly abusing Wikipedia for personal purposes rather than to work on encyclopedic content. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Peanut gallery pile on support Been watching this for a while and figured this was inevitable. I was not canvassed in any way, shape or form. Blackmane (talk) 01:17, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support - No-brainer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
2600:1008:B16F:4C07:8517:D712:4C7E:F40B
When IP freely uses talk page for attacks, access is revoked. Levivich 16:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2600:1008:B16F:4C07:8517:D712:4C7E:F40B (talk · contribs) Abusing his/her ability to edit his/her talkpage while blocked to continue with personal attacks. example example 2. Please revoke talk page access. Victor Schmidt (talk) 15:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Done. Acroterion (talk) 15:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive IP impersonation
Blocked one month by user:Dlohcierekim. Meters (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On 14 February, I reverted in good faith an edit by 125.178.201.213 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) to then-TFA Chains of Love (TV series), citing its lack of sources and vague language. I left a standard warning on their talk page. They proceeded to edit my user talk page comments. I reverted and warned them about talk page refactoring. They then impersonated me on User talk:ChamithN and attempted to reset my password with Special:PasswordReset. I think these two actions cross the line from good-faith editing to disruptive editing, and need an explanation. – Teratix ₵ 23:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- The filter log also shows that the IP attempted to make a small edit to your userpage. Tornado chaser (talk) 03:04, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
User:Djln
User:Djln (edit talk history links watch logs) disagrees with a CFD nomination I have made, at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2019_February 19#Category:Foyle_College.
He is of course entitled to his view ... but he has chosen to express his disagreement in a prolonged series of personalised responses which seem to amount to a determination to prove that he has somehow caught me out on something. If he'd read the guidelines he'd see that he hasn't, but he says[62] Please don't just quote guidelines. Not interested in reading them thanks
.
It's a long way from the worst personal attacks I have received, more like sniping, but the persistent personalisation and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality is tedious to be on the receiving end of, and disruptive to a discussion which is supposed to be consensus-forming. WP:NPA is clear "Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia".
Here's some of Djln's comments
- [63]
Oh please crying "personal attack" when you've been called out !
- [64]
You've been caught out
- [65]
you need to get a life
- [66]
Don't make me laugh. If you were a teacher, you would probably tell your pupils one thing and then do the complete opposite. Just like you have done here
I let it pass, but Djln doesn't seem to want to drop the stick. This started at 17:14 yesterday, but Djlns' last comment (above) comes 21 hours after my last comment in that thread.
Please can someone try to persuade Djln to either read the relevant guideline (WP:SMALLCAT) and discuss the substance, or withdraw from the discussion? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I created the perfectly legitimate Category:Foyle College. There are over 70 similar categories regarding schools and colleges. BrownHairedGirl nominated the category for deletion because it only had two items. When had I had the audacity to point out that she herself has previously created categories with just a single article she took offence. I find BrownHairedGirls behaviour to be patronising, bullying and totally inappropriate for an administrator. Djln Djln (talk) 19:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I see that Djln is still holding to his refusal to read WP:SMALLCAT, which is only 90 words long.
- If an editor explicitly refuses to read the relevant guideline, then a feeling of being patronised by being asked to read it is entirely their own choice.
- And no, I didn't "take offence" at Djln's observation that I had created a one-article category. I pointed to the section of the guideline which permits smallcats in some cases, and invited Djln to nominate the other cats for deletion if you so choose.
- As to bullying ... just read the thread, and see who's hurling the persona absue. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I have read WP:SMALLCAT. It is just a guideline, it is not sacrosanct or written in stone. It is not law. Throughout this discussion your tone has been extremely patronising with an "I know better attitude". Moving this discussion here and "reporting" me is itself an act of bullying. Djln Djln (talk) 19:59, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, @Djln:, hauling you off to ANI is not bullying. You seem to be ignoring the cited guideline out of pigheadedness? You've offered no policy based explanation. Sorry if you don't like the expectation that you should adhere to the same rules as the rest of us. Dlohcierekim(talk) 20:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- In my opinion it is bullying. Just because you think different does not make it so. Plus the term "hauling you off" is totally inappropriate to use. That term is used describe a physical assault. In fact you describing her behaviour as such kinda proves my point. Denying somebody is being bullied when they have bought it to your attention is just as bad. As I have said a guideline is just a guideline. As I have said BrownEyedGirl has ignored this very guideline herself but has taken exception to me doing the same. One rule for me, another for her. Djln Djln (talk) 20:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Djln, do not take things like a CFD nomination so seriously. I suggest you read the guidelines, and contribute to the discussion civilly. If you continue with your conduct it won't end well for you. GiantSnowman 20:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Alright, Djln, have it your way. Let's look at those edit summaries. They are wholly inappropriate, and your response to me adds to the appearance of inappropriateness. The whole category guideline discussion pales in its glaring brightness. Please, do heed GiantSnowman as they are wise. Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Djln, do not take things like a CFD nomination so seriously. I suggest you read the guidelines, and contribute to the discussion civilly. If you continue with your conduct it won't end well for you. GiantSnowman 20:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I am concerned this discussion is over. I guess there is no point trying to reason with a mafia of unreasonable editors/administrators over such a trivial petty matter. I suspect next you will threaten to block me and try to claim it is not bullying. Sorry for daring to express an opinion. Djln Djln (talk) 21:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:SMALLCAT is guidance for the suitability of a category for creation. Djln has created a category which fails this particular test and cites at length various categories created by BHG which pass the test (if one reads the criterion properly). Djln is wrong and should make an apologetic retreat. Oculi (talk) 21:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Block evasion |
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|
- Comment How about we fix this like it should have been in the first place - User:Djln, if you carry on using demeaning edit-summaries like that you will be blocked. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, and regardless of whether your sense of entitlement leads you to believe you can talk to others here like that, the fact is - you can't, so stop it. Now. Black Kite (talk) 00:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I have withdrawn from this conversation. BHG can do what she wants. Not sure why other editors are carrying it on. I have learned that it pointless and a wasted exercise trying to reason with administrators. I have contributed 100s, perhaps over a 1000, quality articles to Wikipedia over the past 15 years. It would just be nice if I was occasionally just treated with a bit more respect instead of totally inappropriate and unhelpful responses accompanied by threats of blocks. Sadly this bullying behaviour is typical of some Wiki editors (and administrators) who are then happy to lecture others on their behaviour. Bringing up a previous block from seven years again is particularly childish. All this does is make me not want to contribute to Wikipedia. I'm sure this comment will now lead to me being blocked. Djln Djln (talk) 15:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Not really seeing a lot to do here. Djln has created many CAT's, so I think we can allow a lapse or two. Perhaps a less escalative approach will allow for further editing? Perhaps an agreement to disagree and then move on? Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek casting aspersions
There is consensus among the admin in this discussion that AE is the preferred venue for this matter. Leviv ich 06:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I know coming to AN/I usually ends up being a negative incident, so I am going to be as concise as possible. I am going to highlight the comment and diff and request a one way IBAN. I was brought to WP:AE ,and Volunteer Marek in his statement (after going through my talk page archives) (as uninvolved editor, not the one bringing the action) said that " Sir Joseph routinely violates WP:1RR on controversial articles under that restriction, then tries to WP:GAME the rules by claiming it's not actually a revert or whatever other "exception" he can invent for himself" He then lists 4 diffs:
Now, even if I were guilty, the latest of those diffs are from 2016 and one is from 2014.
However, only one of those diffs actually show a real 1RR violation and I was blocked for it. The other diffs show discussions. In one case, someone said I violated 1RR and I said the article in question is not a 1RR article, and he's "oh, yeah, you're right." In another diff, the person thought that multiple edits were a violation of 1RR, when we all know that is not the case, we can make multiple edits to an article, as indeed, admin @Bishonen: pointed out to the editor. So VM stated I "routinely" violate 1RR and that I game the system, which is casting aspersion. He provides 4 diffs which don't show that. My only interactions with him have been negative. I hereby request that those comments be stricken and a one-way IBAN be implemented. Sir Joseph (talk) 04:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am unsure why one issue should lead to a one-way interaction ban. Interaction bans are for long-term chronic behavioural issues where two (ostensibly) useful contributors are unable to work together due to (usually petty) personal differences. You not being happy about one issue is not going to lead to an IBAN. While I agree that two of the diffs VM provided aren't good examples (the other two are), it is not unreasonable for VM to suggest you have breached 1RR restrictions, here's other examples he could have used - [71],[72],[73]. We are not going to interaction ban people who comment on arbitration enforcement discussions just because you don't like what they are saying. Fish+Karate 09:54, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with F+K here. I don't see a IBAN happening and suggest Sir Joseph taking a step back from the whole mess because I am pretty sure a WP:BOOMERANG request is next. Regards SoWhy 11:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- (Sigh) "negative incident" usually means one failed to realize one was wrong to begin with in one's interpretation of events. Thanks, y'all. I sent 'em here from my talk 'cause I figured as much and I don't have the endurance for this much digging. Dlohcierekim (talk) 12:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I also don't see dif's from 2016 as overly germane to a current situation. I also didn't/don't see an IBAN. WM can be quite outspoken, so you might want to question his neutrality at AE if you've had prior history. Don't know how that works, though. Dlohcierekim(talk) 12:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- it's not just this one incident, and thanks for showing why this place is negative. Vm stated I routinely violate 1rr AND that I try to GAME the system, and I don't. That's casting aspersions. Why do I need to be worried about boomerang? Ani is where I'm told we are supposed to get report uncivil comments. So I did. Sir Joseph(talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I provided the diffs. Folks can check your talk page. It's not "aspersions". It's at WP:AE so I'm sure the admins there can evaluate my claims. Now, the fact that this post of yours is obvious payback for the fact that I had the audacity to point out something obvious at WP:AE (i.e. that you pretty much admit yourself you made a revert, but then try to deny it once brought to admin board) and the fact that you're trying to make an ANI issue out of this (oh no! Someone criticized me!!! How dare they! Ban them!!!) does indeed show you have a habit of trying to WP:GAME Wikipedia policies.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph:, this place is not necessarily negative, but you do need to provide a full explanation of the issue(s) if you expect an informed response. If it's "not just this one incident", then please provide link(s) to the other incident(s); how are we to know what these are otherwise? Based on what you have provided thus far, this complaint is reasonable in that 2 of the 4 pieces of evidence provided by VM appear to be specious, but this does not make it an issue for ANI, which is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems. I do believe Volunteer Marek could have worded his submission to AE more thoughtfully - for example, I would not have used the word "routinely", been more selective with the 1RR-related diffs (noting I managed to find 3 more which were valid, in about 2 minutes of looking), and just stuck to the facts - but that's not anywhere near enough to warrant an interaction ban. Fish+Karate 15:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- he did not just say that I do 1rr, he said that I also try to GAME the system. Your diffs that you found didn't show that. He also opened an AE against me that was mostly unanimously shut down by editors and admins alike. As for venue, where else am I to go other than ani? Again, he said I routinely violate 1rr AND GAME the system. Your diffs shows that I reverted when asked. Sir Joseph(talk) 15:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Places you could have tried before ANI if you have a concern with evidence provided at AE:
- The Arbitration Enforcement page itself (you did this and gave VM exactly 57 minutes to respond before posting here).
- The other user's talk page (you did not do this)
- I see you dislike the "gaming" comment VM made. All you need to say is, within your AE section, "I object to the representation of my edits as "gaming 1RR" by Volunteer Marek and note that no evidence provided supports this". That's it. It will be read. You don't need to coming bounding along to other venues - Dlohcierekim's talk page, here, wherever - asking for further action. Of any kind. It fragments the issue. Also, you haven't provided a single diff to support your (ahem) aspersion that it's "not just this one incident" (or why not one to support the claim you made on User_talk:Dlohcierekim that Volunteer Marek "has been gunning for me for a while"). If you expect a certain level of conduct from others, you need to be at least at that level of conduct yourself. Fish+Karate 15:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Places you could have tried before ANI if you have a concern with evidence provided at AE:
- he did not just say that I do 1rr, he said that I also try to GAME the system. Your diffs that you found didn't show that. He also opened an AE against me that was mostly unanimously shut down by editors and admins alike. As for venue, where else am I to go other than ani? Again, he said I routinely violate 1rr AND GAME the system. Your diffs shows that I reverted when asked. Sir Joseph(talk) 15:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph:, this place is not necessarily negative, but you do need to provide a full explanation of the issue(s) if you expect an informed response. If it's "not just this one incident", then please provide link(s) to the other incident(s); how are we to know what these are otherwise? Based on what you have provided thus far, this complaint is reasonable in that 2 of the 4 pieces of evidence provided by VM appear to be specious, but this does not make it an issue for ANI, which is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems. I do believe Volunteer Marek could have worded his submission to AE more thoughtfully - for example, I would not have used the word "routinely", been more selective with the 1RR-related diffs (noting I managed to find 3 more which were valid, in about 2 minutes of looking), and just stuck to the facts - but that's not anywhere near enough to warrant an interaction ban. Fish+Karate 15:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I provided the diffs. Folks can check your talk page. It's not "aspersions". It's at WP:AE so I'm sure the admins there can evaluate my claims. Now, the fact that this post of yours is obvious payback for the fact that I had the audacity to point out something obvious at WP:AE (i.e. that you pretty much admit yourself you made a revert, but then try to deny it once brought to admin board) and the fact that you're trying to make an ANI issue out of this (oh no! Someone criticized me!!! How dare they! Ban them!!!) does indeed show you have a habit of trying to WP:GAME Wikipedia policies.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- it's not just this one incident, and thanks for showing why this place is negative. Vm stated I routinely violate 1rr AND that I try to GAME the system, and I don't. That's casting aspersions. Why do I need to be worried about boomerang? Ani is where I'm told we are supposed to get report uncivil comments. So I did. Sir Joseph(talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with F+K here. I don't see a IBAN happening and suggest Sir Joseph taking a step back from the whole mess because I am pretty sure a WP:BOOMERANG request is next. Regards SoWhy 11:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am unsure why one issue should lead to a one-way interaction ban. Interaction bans are for long-term chronic behavioural issues where two (ostensibly) useful contributors are unable to work together due to (usually petty) personal differences. You not being happy about one issue is not going to lead to an IBAN. While I agree that two of the diffs VM provided aren't good examples (the other two are), it is not unreasonable for VM to suggest you have breached 1RR restrictions, here's other examples he could have used - [71],[72],[73]. We are not going to interaction ban people who comment on arbitration enforcement discussions just because you don't like what they are saying. Fish+Karate 09:54, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I came to your talkpage because I noticed you were online, and I wanted someone to address the comments because as you can see from the AE, people just look at someone posting comments and diffs and then go from there. And VM brought me to AE before and has a history with me. Again, I have no interest in prolonging this but if ANI is not the place, and asking an admin is not the place, and AE is not the place because you need an AE sanction to remedy for, then what is to be done? Just close this and be done with this. I've had enough. No wonder WMF comes out with surveys asking how they can improve the ANI process. For the record, here is the AE request he opened against me, [74]Sir Joseph(talk) 16:09, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: You need to (re}read F+K's post above. AE was the place. Dlohcierekim (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
@Fish and karate: 57 minutes, eh? And still had time to stop by at my place for lunch. Dlohcierekim (talk) 00:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- To his credit, I expected more words from VM. perhaps I misjudged him. Dlohcierekim (talk) 00:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't do AE. Blood pressure, you know. As this is all discussable at AE, that's the place to discuss it. Dlohcierekim(talk) 00:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- How is AE the place? Under what sanction? It wasn't under an article, so ARBPIA or US Politics wouldn't apply, discretionary sanctions only applies to articles to my recollection. That's why I asked you. In any event, apparently discussing this is considered lawyering, which apparently is the worst crime in Wikipedia. And since VM loves looking up archives, why not look up VM in the AE archives? You'll see how many times he's there. I truly have no idea why he is negative towards me and that is why I asked for the iban, I know it's a long shot but I have no interest in having negativity around me. Sir Joseph(talk) 00:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- The scope of a discretionary sanction depends on the specific sanction. See WP:DSTOPICS, where many (the majority?) of the DS topic areas are defined as "pages" and not "articles". Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- The scope of discretionary sanctions are generally understood to include AE complaints brought under those sanctions. GoldenRing (talk) 07:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- How is AE the place? Under what sanction? It wasn't under an article, so ARBPIA or US Politics wouldn't apply, discretionary sanctions only applies to articles to my recollection. That's why I asked you. In any event, apparently discussing this is considered lawyering, which apparently is the worst crime in Wikipedia. And since VM loves looking up archives, why not look up VM in the AE archives? You'll see how many times he's there. I truly have no idea why he is negative towards me and that is why I asked for the iban, I know it's a long shot but I have no interest in having negativity around me. Sir Joseph(talk) 00:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell not one of your diffs includes a posts by VM.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- NOTE-- Sir Joseph has been blocked regarding a matter at AE.' Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Would anyone care to close this as being without merit. VM has done nothing actionable. Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Phadendra
This editor came to my attention on February 20 after creating Template:Address and Rosmi Ghimire, which were CSD'd under A7 and A1. I sent them a personal message [75] telling them to slow down. They failed to heed my advice and have now created more than 6 pages all of which are being Speedied. I am coming here since despite my persistent requests for communication they just created 2 new pages right as I am typing ([76], [77]) which are not ready for main space yet and has still yet to respond to any of my messages. I think they are trying to fill in all the redlinks on their userpage but this is not the way to go. This is becoming very disruptive and has taken the valuable time of 7 editors to combat this. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- HickoryOughtShirt?4 I can't figure out why, but this pattern seems so familiar... If I think about the SPI case name I will post it to your talk page later. (Non-administrator comment) ―Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖ 05:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Deleted the deletable, tagged pages. Left my standard deletion notices and a couple of warnings. Dlohcierekim (talk) 05:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick work/response. Hopefully it doesn't start up again. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- According to their user page, they are 19 years old with less than 100 edits. Can we treat as the new editor that they are? LizRead! Talk! 06:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Liz Yes, I saw that they said they were 19 (somehow they were born in 2057 though) which is why I sent them personal messages instead of always templating them. That being said, their edits are still disruptive and they are still creating a lot of work to clean up. If they want to edit on English Wikipedia they need to communicate. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 06:15, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- According to their user page, they are 19 years old with less than 100 edits. Can we treat as the new editor that they are? LizRead! Talk! 06:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick work/response. Hopefully it doesn't start up again. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- As an AFC reviewer, I’ve taken suspicion on their recreation of Samata Shiksha Niketan only minutes after the unsourced draft was declined. And yet they continue to create such unsourced Nepal school pages? At this point, WP:COMMUNICATION applies. Unsure about WP:CIR though. Jalen D. Folf(talk) 06:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- New editors are not exempt from policies and we had a 'crat who was 15 at the time. I educated them as best I could-- which is what we must do for new editors who are moving too fast. That they did not hear with the non template approach required a stiffer message. Dlohcierekim(talk) 12:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- The DOB is comforting as it means man is still alive and woman can survive. Dlohcierekim (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- New editors are not exempt from policies and we had a 'crat who was 15 at the time. I educated them as best I could-- which is what we must do for new editors who are moving too fast. That they did not hear with the non template approach required a stiffer message. Dlohcierekim(talk) 12:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Hang on... he comes from 2057.All may be well then, but I can tell you as a refugee from the terror of the 24th century that long before 2525 you'll all be doomed...wiped out forever... Oh the humanity Lemon martini (talk) 02:00, 25 February 2334 (UTC)
- Liz, wait... is that young? ―Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖ 14:42, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
@MattLongCT: Too young? That depends. "For a mountain (it is) not even begun in years. For an apricot, (quite old). For a head of lettuce, even more so. However, for a man (it is) just right. "Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Obvious sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Evlekis needing a block
One, two, three new socks placed under checkuser blocks. Phew! Nutcracking stopped. Levivich 03:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
David Curits (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is an obvious sock per redoing edits by recently blocked CU-confirmed socks of Evlekis, reverting recently made edits by me (which is typical for Evlekis), and this edit summary, with a "handcrafted" link to nonexisting User:Epsom Nutcracker, a clear reference to blocked Evlekis-socks User:EPSOMNUTCRACKER and User:Epsom's Nutcracker. 89.240.198.36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) also seems to be connected to this. Pinging Bbb23 for a CU-check since Evlekis usually operates multiple accounts simultaneously... - Tom Thomas.W talk 10:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- And here's number two for today: One 2 three 4 5 six 7 8 nine ten (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)... - Tom Thomas.W talk 10:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Capman Crunch (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is also Evlekis. - Tom Thomas.W talk 11:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Misuse of Rollback right
Admin intervention is not required here and Vivvt has been warned and forgiven. Any further misuse, their rollback rights will be revoked. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 11:36, 23 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I made this edit on 64th National Film Awards. Vivvt rollbacked my edit two times without explanation. The first time itself I had reminded him his obligation to provide an explanation. But the user rollbacked again, which I undid asking why he is not providing an explanation. Per WP:ROLLBACK: editors who misuse standard rollback (for example, by using it to reverse good-faith edits in situations where an explanatory edit summary would normally be expected) may have their rollback rights removed.
Vivvt started a discussion only AFTER the second rollback. I was not informed and found it by chance while looking for any previous discussions (as if it was the reason for his rollback) and reversed myself until a consensus is reached. The ideal thing was to begin a discussion first and revert my edit with an edit summary pointing towards the discussion. Rollback is for undoing "obvious vandalism", but Vivvt has misused it. Admin who granted him the right is now indeffed with a global ban, so couldn't inform him.--Let There Be Sunshine 16:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Vivvt: WP:ROLLBACK is for obvious vandalism only. In all other cases you are expected to provide an edit summary. Please keep in mind for future use. I don't think admin intervention is necessary at this time. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:19, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I also note this invalid rollback. ∯WBGconverse 16:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd give that one a pass: it's not an ideal rollback, but it's a sourced figure and number-change vandalism is rampant. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:27, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, okay, the figure seems to be open to interpretation: the source given beside "ninth" is an Indian government source but not an ordinal list, while our List of Prime Ministers of India lists him sixth seemly due to counting Indira Gandhi's two separate ministries as one, and discounting both of Gulzarilal Nanda's ministries as "acting" PM. It's hard to say that was an inappropriate use of rollback, but there probably should have been some discussion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Ivanvector that action isn't necessary at this time. Mistakes happen, and nobody is perfect; I'm not at the stage of being alarmed or overly concerned yet. However, if Vivvt continues to misuse rollback and to revert good faith edits without an appropriate edit summary, the user right will be revoked. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
TBAN violation by Cristina neagu
DS blocked for two weeks with talk page access removed. Leviv ich 19:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Cristina neagu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I think that [78] is a violation of her TBAN from Romania and Romanians. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just that I put back my work (the Antiquity section) which was written before a TBAN. Moxy is somehow connected to you? Because first he provoked the scandal on Romania where I was banned, from that discussion you reported me. Now Moxy went to Arad, Romania to remove also my work not just to add back two words. Since when it's ok to remove my work? My work was not banned at all. That's the history of the town and must stay. I even informed the administrator who banned me that I did that. I had no intention to do anything than adding back my work (which was wrongly deleted). Regards, Christina Christina (talk) 09:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's an admission of guilt, and
Moxy is somehow connected to you?
is an useless attack. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:56, 23 February 2019 (UTC) - Evidence of TBAN: [79]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I just hope it's your sock, because then you would manipulate things badly against me. I asked you kindly. And why are you so provocative? So much hatred? I am not editing anything against my harsh TBAN (1 admin found me no guilt, 1 user found me no guilt, 2 admins decided not in my favour; I received a TBAN based on weak evidences, now I am not going to violate anything but I had to put back my work), I had to put back a previous information on Arad. I hope you not writing again here romans... Christina (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- According to Sandstein
you were topic-banned for what looked like nationalist ranting.
[80]. So you are the only one who is guilty for your TBAN. As I told you, I don't hate people. But I am not a moron, either. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- According to Sandstein
- I just hope it's your sock, because then you would manipulate things badly against me. I asked you kindly. And why are you so provocative? So much hatred? I am not editing anything against my harsh TBAN (1 admin found me no guilt, 1 user found me no guilt, 2 admins decided not in my favour; I received a TBAN based on weak evidences, now I am not going to violate anything but I had to put back my work), I had to put back a previous information on Arad. I hope you not writing again here romans... Christina (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's an admission of guilt, and
- Blocked for two weeks as arbitration enforcement--Ymblanter (talk) 10:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Cristina neagu: Wow. Please do read WP:NPA, WP:casting aspersions and WP:AGF. DlohCierekim (talk) 14:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- This editor simply does not have the competency to edit English Wikipedia. --Moxy (talk) 14:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yup, she comes across as totally immature: she sees her bans and blocks as always being the fault of others, who use "psychological techniques of manipulation" against her ([81]). She comes across as totally immature. Maybe she's underage. If she is above 21 years old, there is nothing more to do about it: she just does not have the WP:COMPETENCE to edit Wikipedia. Although, I might add, accusations of manipulation from a minor are fairly unlikely. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Now DS blocked for 2 weeks w/ TPA removed. I concur with the extension given the sheer ma, er, inappropriateness of the disruption on her talk. DlohCierekim (talk) 18:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yup, she comes across as totally immature: she sees her bans and blocks as always being the fault of others, who use "psychological techniques of manipulation" against her ([81]). She comes across as totally immature. Maybe she's underage. If she is above 21 years old, there is nothing more to do about it: she just does not have the WP:COMPETENCE to edit Wikipedia. Although, I might add, accusations of manipulation from a minor are fairly unlikely. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
History of inappropriate behavior towards users, misuse of tools and power.
OP has been blocked indefinitely per WP:BEHAVE and WP:CIR. ~Swarm~ {talk} 23:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I first came across SummerPhDv2.0 via an article while editing, user disrupted my edit by modifying it and decided to created a new discussion on the article's talk page at which I felt they were taking ownership of my sourced material and reference "at the time". The only concern I had was the reasoning behind the modification, there was no citation left, and no type of communication between user and I to resolve the issue. Instead user decided to create a new discussion in the talk page without notifying me there was an issue with what I provided that warranted the modifications. I ended up finding this discussion "on my own" and decided to interact while trying to handle the disruptive edit to my own edits at the same time. It wasn't until "after" the discussion got heated, I was told the reasoning behind the edits.
User and I have had lengthy discussions on their personal talk page and also on the new talk page discussion they created on the article. Our talks have been about the issue at hand, past issues that have occurred with other users involving them, numerous flags on their account, and the misuse of tools and power. Instead of actually trying to iron out the issues and address them via communication, user wishes to make threats of banning my account, lie about certain situations while modifying talk pages trying to delete parts of the conversation to make themselves look better. The issue is toxic and has cost (from what they've told me) a lot of accounts banned maybe even innocent ones.
Before you rule, I would strongly suggest doing a thorough investigation on our situation and situations "we've" both had with other users in the past, whether it takes days or weeks before another innocent account gets falsely banned. In my honest opinion it seems as though high editing points, current account status, and time spent on the platform has gone over user's head to the point where there's no real human interaction with them. It seems as though the only thing they can do is ignore what you're telling them, reference this or reference that with their tools, instead of actually practicing what they're referencing.
Lastly I want to make it clear, "my issue" was never about my edit being questioned, that's every users' right to do so as they choose. My only issue is, how it went about and how the user has chosen "for years" to deal with certain situations they may not like. For an example, when this all got started user DID NOT delete sourced material I provided (clearly it was acceptable enough for them to slightly modify it and keep it), they also asked for me to provide a birthday month and day source (which I did), afterwards they accepted that as well while reapplying my original edit (I even hit the thanks button). I don't know what happened afterwards, but all I've received (since then to now) is constant lying, switch ups on what they've deemed earlier "reliable" then the next it's not "reliable" anymore after a heated debate. I've even tried to resolve the issue between us "myself" in the third to last message in our discussion, but the user didn't want to resolve things and continued with the behavior.
References: Their talk page, my talk page, and talk pages we've interacted with outside of this situation (past or present). Note: User does edit/hide certain things so check all pages history. VerifiedFixes (talk) 10:13, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- VerifiedFixes, please don't waste the time of ANI by typing out rubbish (aka
The issue is toxic and has cost (from what they've told me) a lot of accounts banned maybe even innocent ones.
). Who is "they"? If you have specific diffs, please list each and every one of those diffs to build your case. Don't give broad and hollow statements (e.g."whether it takes days or weeks before another innocent account gets falsely banned."
) SummerPhDv2.0 is absolutely right in demanding sparklingly reliable sources and not silly Twitter claims of celebrities trying to peddle in their own lower age claims. Binksternet is an established editor who can smell silliness from far away; and his comment on the talk page article is as insightful as it can get. Also, leaving a note on the article's talk page (like Summperphd did) is the appropriate way to follow the WP:BRD cycle. It's not his job to leave a talk page comment for you on your personal talk page or to start a special conversation with you. Thanks, Lourdes 11:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I read through the first sentence of your complaint and then checked out the article talk page and stopped reading your complaint. Concerning the age/birthdate, I see one discussion on the talk page page in 2013 with some additional comments in 2015 and 2018 under a separate sub header and one additional comment in a completely separate header in 2017. These are old enough discussions that starting a new one is completely reasonable. There are no other discussions other than the one you complained about in the first line. If you didn't initiate a discussion and someone else does because they feel it is merited, this is not "taking ownership" of anything. This is doing what we are suppose to do namely using the article talk page to discuss issues over article content. If you don't want people to discuss article content on the article talk page (whoever added that content), then wikipedia is not the place for you. Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopaedia and discussing article content on the article talk page when necessary, such as when there is dispute or uncertainty, is precisely what we are supposed to do. Probably 75% of the complaints on ANI if not more arise because people fail to properly discuss content issues on the article talk page. If you don't want someone else initiating the discussion, then you could always start the discussion on the article talk page first. Depending on the change, it's often not necessary, but other times it's a good idea. In any case if you're going to get annoyed because someone else started a discussion, it's you're only solution other than simply leaving wikipedia. As I said, I didn't read the rest of what you said. If you want to me (and probably others) to take your complaint seriously, don't raise an issue which is fundamentally against how things are supposed to work on wikipedia. Nil Einne (talk) 12:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The OP wrote over SPhD's t/p:-
Since you've insulted my English, I'm going to "indirectly" insult your upbringing by showcasing what a "proper" upbringing gets you.
Can we just issue a boomerang NPA indef block? ∯WBGconverse 12:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I read a bit more of your complaint and looked at your history and guess you're probably new. (Well okay I partly did before finishing my first message hence why I emphasised article talk page.) I think you're very confused about how things are supposed to work on wikipedia. While I don't want to WP:BITE, you did leave a very strongly worded complaint on ANI about another editor so should expect a response. Lest a WP:boomerang I strongly suggest you drop this now and instead seek help somewhere like WP:Teahouse or WP:Help Desk concentrating on understanding any part of the wikipedia editing process that confuse you and not what you feel what others have done wrong. For example, there is generally no requirement or expectation to notify people when you start a discussion on the article talk page or when you revert them. (Although if someone uses the undo, it will automatically notify if you have it enabled.) Sometimes it's useful for a variety of reasons, but other times not. And while sometimes discussing content issues on editor talk pages is okay, most of the time is far better to do so on the article talk page so that others can more easily participate and it can be found in the future. If you make an edit and it's reverted, your first port of call should normally be to the article talk page, whether it's to participate in the discussion initiated by whoever reverted you or to start one yourself. Actually as I said above, sometimes it's better to begin discussion before you make any edit. As we say all over the place e.g. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is free content: "Since all your contributions are freely licensed to the public, no editor owns any article; all of your contributions can and will be mercilessly edited and redistributed". Also since you mentioned ownership, I feel it's worth pointing out that it's actually your behaviour which comes across much more as exhibiting WP:OWNnership, since you seem very annoyed that someone dared to make a change to your edits. Anyway as I said before, I'm sure there are others much better at explaining these things to you, they'll likely be able to help if you make a good faith attempt to seek it somewhere appropriate. Nil Einne (talk) 13:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Lourdes The main reason I stated to thoroughly investigate "aka" review (as you put it) the situation before making a judgement because I knew this would exactly happen. It's always going to be a bigger account's word vs a smaller one. You've misread everything I've submitted, while trying to clown me at the same time for rules I followed when it comes to submitting issues.
Twitter tweets was only for the acknowledgement of artist's birthday month and day which is exactly what SummerPhDv2.0 asked for. So the "silly" comment was not needed when you didn't fully look at the situation. Twitter has nothing to do with it, never was mentioned at all when it comes to the year the artist was born. The dispute even after I referenced it was accepted first by SummerPhDv2.0 until things got out of hand. What I referenced was a magazine interview that stated her age at the time was 27 5 months after her alleged birthday which is March 4th. Wherever you got Twitter from after all the discussions that I linked that SummerPhDv2.0 and I've had (including the diffs you asked for about banned accounts is mentioned multiple times in that whole entire conversation combined) how you missed all of that is beyond me!
Addressing the Binksternet situation, I don't know where her or he fits in, other then them bumping the information I provided. I don't know this person, never had a conversation with them, and haven't spoke bad about them. So I don't understand why Binksternet being tagged when it comes to a situation SummerPhDv2.0 and myself are having. If memory serves me correct the only thing Binksternet spoke about was a yearbook and it wasn't directed towards me, they didn't mention my name, and I didn't create the discussion in the talk page SummerPhDv2.0 did so that's who Binksternet was talking to not me!
If this is how it's going to go down ("me" as the bad person), then I don't want any parts of it. No need to temporarily or indefinitely ban me. I will gladly delete my own account and contribute elsewhere on my days off. Thanks for your time.VerifiedFixes (talk) 13:50, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VerifiedFixes: The problem is that you've just made a bunch of accusations without providing evidence. You use WP:DIFFs to provide evidence, which you already know how to do (as you linked to a diff of one of your edits). You can go to Special:Contributions/SummerPhDv2.0 and find diffs of SummerPhDv2.0 violating cite policies, bring them here, and then we can do something. We are not going to do your work for you. Otherwise, this opens the door to someone accusing you of reverting 87 times in a 24 hour period to claim that a famous celebrity raped a puppy -- not saying you did that, just demonstrating why we expect evidence for accusations. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VerifiedFixes:(edit conflict) I for one am very impressed with an editor who has less than 400 edits lecturing more experienced editors so vociferously. I also fail to see how this merits an ANI post. And of course, the navigational skills in finding ANI are very good. However, it would probably be better to follow other forms of WP:dispute resolution prior to posting a complaint to ANI. I left you a welcome on your talk page. While you catch up on your reading, please read the parts on no personal attacks as well as casting aspersions. As to, "before another innocent account gets falsely banned," do you have anyone in mind particularly? Why are you so set on casting anyone as a villain in an editorial dispute? Hmmm?Thanks, DlohCierekim (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VerifiedFixes: Why are you so desperate to see someone banned or blocked? We are nowhere near needing to ban or block anyone. And if your response to push back is to say, "i'm leaving," then you may not enjoy editing on a collaborative project like this one. Now who has WP:OWN issues? DlohCierekim (talk) 14:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VerifiedFixes: again you seem to be showing that you don't really understand how things work here. We don't rule on content disputes at ANI, so we're never likely to spend much time investigating what source says what. And as I've said already, if you want people to take you seriously, you need to give us some reason to. When your complaint starts off with silliness i.e. basically complaining about someone opening a simple article talk page discussion, and with no reason why that discussion was inappropriate (such as because the editor is topic banned, or because the editor is hounding you or perhaps because that editor agrees with the edit and there was no reason to revert), expect short shrift. And frankly, if an editor with 100k edits who's been here for 15 years was the one doing this, I would be much less tolerant than I am with you. However I think you'll likely to find even some tolerance for new user mistakes wears thins when you refuse to listen to anyone and keep attacking other editors for silly reasons or without evidence. Also let me repeat one more time that collaborating with other editors, which includes participating in discussion in article talk pages, is a cornerstone part of what makes wikipedia. You can't ignore comments on article talk pages like those from Binksternet just because you think they're uninvolved or whatever. You should take onboard any good faith comments left by other editors in good standing in considering how to make the best article. (This doesn't mean you have to agree with them.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VerifiedFixes:: re-ping. ——SerialNumber54129 15:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is a tempest in a teapot. VerifiedFixes came to the article to make some changes including adding a birthdate to the infobox despite a hidden comment advising everyone to "See Talk" because the issue is more complex than usual. The next edit changed the birth year from 1982 to 1986 based on one source.[82] (There are multiple conflicting sources for year.) After that, VerifiedFixes and SummerPhDv2.0 went back and forth a few times about the way the age would be displayed in the infobox, which is a trivial matter. The big problem is the age itself! K. Michelle graduated high school in 2000 (multiple sources) and she was reported by the college yearbook to be 18 in late 2000 as a freshman, which is not a surprising or unusual age, as the great majority of American high school graduates are 18. So in 2013 she would have been 31, but she said she was 27, probably for professional reasons – she's a performer, and likely feels the need to seem younger. Her claimed age is surprising and unusual, putting her at age 14 at her gradution from high school, which nobody claims. Nobody has described her as particularly brilliant, a child prodigy, a whiz at her studies. So the dispute between the above editors is unimportant, blown out of proportion by VerifiedFixes who arrived at the article with an I'm-never-wrong attitude, then turned around and accused another editor of ownership issues. Binksternet (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Meh. To people of my generation, it's a woman's prerogative to lie about her age. And since when is a tweet or series of tweets from a subject ever regarded as trustworthy? The tweets can support part of the age controversy section, but this feels awful tabloidesque. DlohCierekim(talk) 18:40, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Except that this is an encyclopedia ostensibly giving facts, not fabrications. In a perfect world, nobody would care about seeming younger, as maturing performers would continue to be marketable as long as they're relevant. I don't like kowtowing to ageism's norms, as they don't seem normal to me. Binksternet (talk) 04:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Boomerang - 72 hour block - This appears to be a time sink by an editor who is unhappy with SummerPhD2.0 and thought coming here would somehow get the result they wanted. Rather, I see a bunch of aspersions with no diffs, failure to understand basic Wikipedia policy like NPA/TPO, and a lot of rants on a talk page. Also obnoxious bolding. If there is any merit to this post, OP needs to provide diffs or retract this. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
More Evlekis-socks in need of a block
Matching socks make easy blocks, talk page access revoked. Leviv ich 19:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Today's socks (and yes, I'm sure they're Evlekis, based on edits and general behaviour, a perfect match for countless previous socks...), so far, are:
- Parsmaster (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Benson Hedgecutter (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki)
But there will no doubt be more of them within the coming hours. And, as always with Evlekis, TPA should always be revoked when they're blocked, or they'll start posting tonnes of crap on their talk pages... - Tom Thomas.W talk 11:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
My very best wishes
Withdrawn by filer. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was going to post this under a new subheader in the above Smeagol 17 thread, but I believe this warrants special attention.
- Quick context
My very best wishes (talk · contribs) restored a series of edits on Douma chemical attack that were made by the sockpuppet of a banned user who was also notorious for POV pushing. A pointless discussion involving Mvbw and myself ensued in the talk page, from which it has become clear that Mvbw has no intention to self-revert. Per WP:PROXYING, an editor is allowed to reinstate a banned user's edits if said editor agrees to take full responsibility for those edits. In his edit summary, Mvbw did say "under my responsibility" and made the same declaration later on on the talk page.
- Sock edits in question
Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned or blocked editor (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content.
While there is no technical evidence suggesting that Mvbw edited at the direction of this banned user (whom he happened to be friendly with back in the day), any reasonable editor would have realized by now that, in the spirit of WP:DENY, taking sides with a banned user (who happens to also be an occasional troll) against established editors is not only uncollegial, but also highly disrespectful. Mvbw's excuses for retaining "regime" in the article included "Syrian government redirects to a misleading page", "precise" and "frequently used in RS" but made no attempt to explain why it should be used instead of government. If this alone is not WP:TENDENTIOUS I don't know what is.
This should not go unpunished without a sanction IMO. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 15:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I believe I comply fully with the policy. First of all, I did not do any edits at the direction of any banned user. Period. Secondly, according to the policy, "Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content.". Yes, that is exactly what I did. I believe that was an improvement of content and explained this on article talk page [83]. Now, if I misunderstood something, please explain, and I am very much willing to abide all policies and rules. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Firstly, Fitzcarmalan, we don't do punishment, so you need to drop that line right away. Secondly, as My very best wishes has taken personal responsibility for those edits in line with policy, I see nothing more here than a content dispute. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Call it whatever you like (now stricken). The fact that he "took personal responsibility" for such crap edits (and I already explained why they were crap) and repeatedly refused to back down is exactly why I'm reporting this here. The tendentious and POINTy editing alone is enough to get him blocked. This "content dispute" will certainly not go through an RfC on whether "government" or "regime" should be used, if that's what you're suggesting. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- What "POINTY editing to get me blocked"? Where did you explain that my edit was "crap"? Any diffs? My very best wishes (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, nice try. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The quality of the edit is a content issue, and not appropriate for this forum. The only issue here is whether there was proxying or not. MVBW flatly denies that he made any edits at the direction of a banned editor, and it's been pointed out that restoring an edit means that MVBW is now responsible for it. Is there any more concrete evidence of proxying? If not, this should probably be closed. If there is additinal evidence, can we please have it posted? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
it's been pointed out that restoring an edit means that MVBW is now responsible for it
- Then he is responsible for a gross POV violation. But you can all go ahead and disregard that of course and make this about something I said. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:22, 25 February 2019 (UTC)- Fitzcarmalan, as people keep trying to explain to you, the quality of the edits is *not* an issue for admins to address, as we have no power to solve content disputes. If you disagree with the content, you need to start a discussion *on the article talk page* and seek consensus there. Now, Fitzcarmalan, do you have any actual evidence of any actual proxying, or can we close this? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- So you're telling me that editors who violate one of our core policies in a sensitive topic are not subject to administrative decisions? That's news to me.
- And no, I don't have evidence of proxying. Only that Mvbw was (and still is) the one and only editor who has constantly defended and encouraged a banned user who happens to share his POV[84][85]
- So I'll make things easier for you and close this. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Fitzcarmalan, as people keep trying to explain to you, the quality of the edits is *not* an issue for admins to address, as we have no power to solve content disputes. If you disagree with the content, you need to start a discussion *on the article talk page* and seek consensus there. Now, Fitzcarmalan, do you have any actual evidence of any actual proxying, or can we close this? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The quality of the edit is a content issue, and not appropriate for this forum. The only issue here is whether there was proxying or not. MVBW flatly denies that he made any edits at the direction of a banned editor, and it's been pointed out that restoring an edit means that MVBW is now responsible for it. Is there any more concrete evidence of proxying? If not, this should probably be closed. If there is additinal evidence, can we please have it posted? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, nice try. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- What "POINTY editing to get me blocked"? Where did you explain that my edit was "crap"? Any diffs? My very best wishes (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I undid Fitzcarmalan's close. That doesn't mean the thread can't be closed, just that it shouldn't be the OP who does it.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
SWAGnificient
SWAGnificient (talk · contribs)
So I was/am involved in a small content dispute with this user at the Nigel Hasselbaink article. I've reached out to them numerous times on their talk page (ignored) and have also raised the issue at a relevant WikiProject. They continue to edit war and breach MOS.
Upon digging further, I've found a serious history of edit warring on various articles; other users have warned them about this in September 2018, September 2018 (again), September 2018 (a third time), November 2018 and December 2018. Other users have also warned them about unsourced content and original research; their talk page is littered with warnings (and pretty much nothing else), and nothing has changed.
I am concerned that this user lacks competence to edit as part of a community. I welcome other user's review and comments. GiantSnowman 16:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- lol. as if you don't make any mistakes. besides, the source for the fact that he's also surinamer is in the page itself on the international section. dual nationalities exist. SWAGnificient (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) No, the source says he played in an unofficial game for Suriname. I could play in an unofficial game for Suriname (if it wasn't for my dodgy knee) - doesn't make me a Surinamer. As I told you on your talk page, all other sources refer to him as Dutch.
- My concern here is that you have a long history of edit warring. GiantSnowman 16:42, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Borderline. They've never been blocked for edit-warring, so I have to assume they're heeding the warnings when they're given. In this case you're both discussing through reverts with edit summaries, and it's not one particular edit but a series of different content that you seem unable to agree on, so I don't know if I'd call this an edit war per se. But I agree that discussing on a talk page would be better, and so I've protected the page for a couple days, and I'll take a quick look through for BLP issues but otherwise I expect you're on your way to the talk page. If you've agreed on something on the talk page feel free to edit through, or ping me and I'll review. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I wrote the above prior to edit-conflicting with SWAGnificent's comment, which I find unimpressive. Anyway, to the talk page with you. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I posted multiple times on the user's talk page (no response). GiantSnowman 16:42, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I see that, but I get the impression they were trying to communicate through their edit summaries, which isn't ideal, but let's say I'm assuming good faith. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:50, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- And SWAGnificent: please don't do that. When someone approaches you with a concern about content you're trying to add or change, you're expected to reply to their message, not just continue editing. That makes it look like you're ignoring them. Please see Wikipedia:Communication is required. If you keep not communicating you will find yourself blocked. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I posted multiple times on the user's talk page (no response). GiantSnowman 16:42, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Looking over Swag's talk page, I can see GS isn't the only editor to have their politely-raised concerns brushed off. The response to the report here could also be better. Leviv ich 03:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Quartertoten/Brian Desmond Hurst
Disputes are not for the meek. One must have a de-stress technique. Sip tea with biscotti, go fish, try karate, but edit war? Blocked for a week. Levivich 04:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) I've put the close in bold to maximize the number of editors experiencing the ecstasy of reading it. |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would request that administrators again look at the behaviour of Quartertoten on Brian Desmond Hurst, which was previously raised here as per IncidentArchive1002#Quartertoten. Quartertoten has insisted on reinstating substantially the same contentious material in this edit, despite previous multipe reverts, warnings, references to Wikipedia policy, and so on. These are covered in the Talk page sections Conflict on Film and "Conflict on film" genre. I am now disinclined to further involvement myself due to Quartertoten's intransigence, and I am now going to be offline until after the weekend after today, anyway. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Too rich for my blood. @Slatersteven and Oshwah: any insights? Prior discussion appears to have been archived without remedy or closure? NinjaRobotPirate's last recommendation was going up the WP:DR ladder. Perhaps that would be best? Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Unsure, it may well be this is a thing (given the existence of the book, but I cannot verify I do not have a copy). But the wording is odd, and may well be a degree of OR (as the wording is so odd). I am also dubious as to the fact the source...is the dust jacket of a book. This I think is just inexperience. Yes DR may be the best solution.Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- The citation and quote was accepted in good faith, and in some versions of the page was included in the Books on Hurst section (e.g. that of 18 February ). The issue is more that Quartertoten insists that it needs to be in its own section, along with a non-standard list of applicable films (more recently with added explanatory text), even though this duplicates part of the existing Filmography. Originally Quartertoten framed the section more in terms of working through the question of who is the outstanding director in this supposed genre, with the citation at the end as confirmation (e.g. this version). Nick Cooper (talk) 19:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Unsure, it may well be this is a thing (given the existence of the book, but I cannot verify I do not have a copy). But the wording is odd, and may well be a degree of OR (as the wording is so odd). I am also dubious as to the fact the source...is the dust jacket of a book. This I think is just inexperience. Yes DR may be the best solution.Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think that following Wikipedia's dispute resolution protocol is always a good idea - especially in this instance. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I've blocked Quatertoten for a week for continuing the edit warring today. FWIW, I'm not sure if further dispute resolution is needed here - enough editors seemed to have weighed in and while I've only skimmed over the discussions, there seems a near-unaminious consensus against Quartertoten, so what I'm seeing is a tendentious editor refusing to drop the stick and edit warring. Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Request
Besides being out of the scope of ANI, no action is possible here. Advice has been given here and on the IP's talk page on how best to proceed. Airplaneman ✈ 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
hello, I'm trying to access my account that was created with an email which I have no longer access to, can I possibly get help on that? thank you very much — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.181.171 (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but nobody is able to help you; we don't have the ability to reset passwords aside from our own, and nobody's able to change the email address associated with an account. Nyttend (talk) 23:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Recommend that you create new account, but make sure to note on your user page the account that you used to edit with, alongside a summary of why you can no longer edit with it (so as to avoid being blocked for improper use of multiple accounts). Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 23:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Mandruss (talk · contribs) and WP:HOUNDING
(non-admin closure) This isn't HOUNDING. And ANI doesn't need this content dispute spilling over. There is an open RFC at Talk:Aurora,_Illinois_shooting#RfC:_Victim_names. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've never (to my knowledge) interacted with Mandruss (talk · contribs) prior to our interaction at Aurora, Illinois shooting (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views), where he and a handful of other editors have engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior over following what is simply standard operating procedure for articles about mass shootings: naming the victims. I'll leave the larger debate out of this, except to say that I tried to engage in discussion on the talk page there, and immediately it turned into a straw poll about adding the victims (rather than an a, in my opinion, more productive discussion). Fine. So I start doing research on other articles, as in addition to my arguments there, another is that the vast majority (over 90%!) of articles about these subjects name the victims. While compiling data, I came across Daingerfield church shooting (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views). In addition to reading each article to observe whether or not victims were listed in a bullet list or in prose, I was also researching whether articles had discussions over victim name inclusion (most don't), and where articles don't presently have a victim list, was there ever one. In the case of Daingerfield church shooting, it seems the article did have a victim list for the vast majority of its life (linked diff is from the first revision until the edit preceding the removal of the list). I restored the listing, and added the sources inline as that was one of the reasons given for their removal. Mandruss stalked me to that page, a page he has never edited, and reverted me. I'd like to see this nipped in the bud before it becomes a full blown case of WP:HOUNDING. —Locke Cole • t • c 00:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please wait until secondary sources have deemed it significant to name the victims. Primary sources, such as news reports, routinely name them, but your job is to write a tertiary source based on the secondaries, not a secondary sources based on the primaries, let alone a primary source. Mandruss is correctly removing primary-sourced data. Nyttend (talk) 02:23, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Nyttend, since I'm already involved, perhaps you, who are not, can have a closer look--in particular, at Locke Cole's continued edit warring on the original Aurora article. They're still at it. As for "hounding"--meh. Locke Cole claims to have numbers on his side, and maybe this was just an effort to tilt them in his own favor. And no one is going to believe that one single edit makes someone into a hound. Or hounder. Drmies (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- As I said in my report, I'd prefer it didn't continue into hounding territory, as it's clear from his comments on your talk page he intends to do. And this is emphatically not an effort to tilt the numbers, I left that entry on my list showing the original data as I discovered it. And surely if that was my goal, it'd be fairly easy to spot my behavior. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I viewed the primary sources as the sheriff's department/hospitals, and the news outlets as our reliable secondary sources. Your view on this is new to me. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- News reports are always primary sources for current events, because those events are current, not past. Please don't push the fringe theory that news reports are secondary for the events that they're reporting, because you'll never find a dissertation in which newspaper reports appear in the literature review. Really basic guides. Nyttend (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Nyttend, since I'm already involved, perhaps you, who are not, can have a closer look--in particular, at Locke Cole's continued edit warring on the original Aurora article. They're still at it. As for "hounding"--meh. Locke Cole claims to have numbers on his side, and maybe this was just an effort to tilt them in his own favor. And no one is going to believe that one single edit makes someone into a hound. Or hounder. Drmies (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:PETARD I was about to file at AN3 before I saw this. I don’t see how anyone can take this filing seriously. O3000 (talk) 02:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see how they can't take it seriously. From the moment anyone attempted to add victim names it turned into a battleground. When I tried to WP:AGF and discuss on the talk page, the involved editors immediately resorted to !voting as if I started a straw poll. Following me to another article they've never touched, then telling an administrator they intend to stalk my contributions to look for other edits they disagree with is the definition of WP:HOUNDING. They also falsely accused me (in that linked edit) of editing from an IP to circumvent 3RR. And I have no idea what you'd bring to AN3: I've reverted twice in 24 hours, and I'm done. I was fine leaving the article with the disputed tags, but here again, the battleground mentality kicked in with Mandruss (talk · contribs) and he decided to remove them unilaterally. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Link added to suspicious website
Confirmed not malicious, but still not a WP:RS. A Dolphin (squeek?) 16:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In this edit 153.101.246.136 (talk · contribs) added a link to hXXps://scholarshipfellow.com/letter-of-intent-loi-letter-of-intent-for-job-letter-of-intent-for-scholarship-letter-of-intent-sample/ which behaved strangely when I followed it. It made mention of redirecting me to a different website, but just waited rather than actually doing so.
I have deliberately misspelled "https" as "hXXps" so no one will follow the link without careful consideration of the risks involved.
I find it inherently suspicious that an editor would create a link to a page that redirects the reader elsewhere. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Nothing suspicious here. This is just Cloudflare's DDoS protection; one's just redirected to the url above and the website works fine (and doesn't appear to be malicious, though it clearly it isn't an WP:RS). Galobtter (pingó mió) 20:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Incipient Move-War: Draft:Bhakharwadi and Bhakharwadi (TV series)
Page EC move protected by an admin for three months. Reported editor blocked for a week for disruptive editing by a different admin. Leviv ich 07:10, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is an incipient move-war between Draft:Bhakharwadi and Bhakharwadi (TV series). The draft was recently submitted to Articles for Creation, where I declined it procedurally. There had previously been an article on the show, but it was then stubbed down to a redirect to SAB TV. In such a case, the preferred procedure is for the proponent of an article to discuss on the talk page of the parent article, Talk: SAB TV. User: Bhanwar singh vaish posted the following to Talk: SAB TV https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:SAB_TV&type=revision&diff=884370985&oldid=843910765&diffmode=source, which is a request to accept back into mainspace, but not discussion. They then moved it to mainspace via https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Bhakharwadi&type=revision&diff=884652201&oldid=884648970&diffmode=source . User:Sid95Q then moved it back via https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Bhakharwadi&type=revision&diff=884660840&oldid=884653183&diffmode=source . There are various possible answers as to whether and how to decide whether to open the redirect back into an article, but move-warring is not one of them. I don’t care whether it is decided by a RFC on the talk page, by an AFD against the child article, or by an RFD against the redirect. All of those are consensus procedures. I know that move-warring is not the answer. Can an admin move-protect the page and allow pens (or keyboards) in place of swords (or whatever) to prevail? There may be a second-language issue, in that the proponent may need someone to explain what is meant by discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think my last edit to move the article was not a proper and right decision I am sorry if I caused any disruption. Regarding the matter The user is constantly trying to create the article here here and here, He created articles 3 times which were redirected because of the notability issues. Matter was explained to the user User talk:Bhanwar singh vaish#Your edits and The article was moved to draft where the user can work on it before moving it to main space User talk:Bhanwar singh vaish#Bhakharwadi (TV series) moved to draftspace but the user moved it back to main space even though the submission was declined. I tried to move it back to draft space I think I should have discussed the matter before doing it. Regards. Sid95Q (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've applied extended-confirmed move protection for three months on the draft page so that additional moves aren't performed until an established or experienced editor performs the move. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:26, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is fairly typical of Bhanwar singh vaish. He is given advice,[86] says he will follow the advice[87] and then ignores it. He originally created this article at Bhakharwadi (no disambiguation is required) and it was redirected by another editor. He later recreated it at Bhakharwadi (Tv series) for some reason. There was subsequently a war over the article because he kept recreating it with poor and/or inappropriate referencing and other issues. I had initially moved it to Bhakharwadi (TV series) because Bhakharwadi wasn't available but eventually stepped in and moved it to Draft:Bhakharwadi and reminded him that "if" the article was created it should be done at Bhakharwadi. Then comes today's issues as outlined by Robert McClenon. Several versionsof the article have existed, none of which has really been mainspace material but it doesn't seem what Bhanwar singh vaish is told, he decides that whatever he thinks is right. Applying protection is all well and good but I fully expect to see the article recreated in mainspace, even if he has to do a cut and paste move. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- AussieLegend - If that happens, then I'd surely be stepping in and taking administrative action against the user (and if it does, let me know). Moving for one reason or another is one thing, but circumventing process and actually cutting and pasting the content to "move it over" is another... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I suspect that's what will happen. From their edits, I believe this is a fairly young editor. They are great at paying lip service to advice and suggestions, but terrible and following through. Copy-pasting text, uploading copyright violation, poor understanding of reliable sources and terrible at notability - it's all there and been going on for a while. Bluntly, they aren't competent enough to edit here except in a very, very limited capacity that I don't think is worth the time or effort to implement. Ravensfire (talk) 06:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ravensfire - That's really too bad to hear... I think that the user could become a valuable contributor and a positive asset to the encyclopedia if effort was given in order to improve from these hurdles and disruptive edits and the user followed through with their apologies and responses. But, as pointed out by others here, repeated apologies and promises can only go so far until they become meaningless if you're not holding yourself to them... :-/ ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:53, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I suspect that's what will happen. From their edits, I believe this is a fairly young editor. They are great at paying lip service to advice and suggestions, but terrible and following through. Copy-pasting text, uploading copyright violation, poor understanding of reliable sources and terrible at notability - it's all there and been going on for a while. Bluntly, they aren't competent enough to edit here except in a very, very limited capacity that I don't think is worth the time or effort to implement. Ravensfire (talk) 06:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- AussieLegend - If that happens, then I'd surely be stepping in and taking administrative action against the user (and if it does, let me know). Moving for one reason or another is one thing, but circumventing process and actually cutting and pasting the content to "move it over" is another... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is fairly typical of Bhanwar singh vaish. He is given advice,[86] says he will follow the advice[87] and then ignores it. He originally created this article at Bhakharwadi (no disambiguation is required) and it was redirected by another editor. He later recreated it at Bhakharwadi (Tv series) for some reason. There was subsequently a war over the article because he kept recreating it with poor and/or inappropriate referencing and other issues. I had initially moved it to Bhakharwadi (TV series) because Bhakharwadi wasn't available but eventually stepped in and moved it to Draft:Bhakharwadi and reminded him that "if" the article was created it should be done at Bhakharwadi. Then comes today's issues as outlined by Robert McClenon. Several versionsof the article have existed, none of which has really been mainspace material but it doesn't seem what Bhanwar singh vaish is told, he decides that whatever he thinks is right. Applying protection is all well and good but I fully expect to see the article recreated in mainspace, even if he has to do a cut and paste move. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- i think everyone is right on its own way.if i done any error good to inform me but it is responsibility of all of us to fix it,rather to move pages or giving complaint to administrator.if Bhakharwadi's draft page have any problem,just fix it and move it to mainspace,is responsibility of all too,not only mine.i hope all you can understand.if understand please fix problem and make it to mainspace,please give your view on my talk page now.thank you.Bhanwar singh vaish (talk)
Johnbod and The Rambling Man
If AN/I can't sort something out in what amounts to four days, there's no solution to be found on this page. I doubt if this will satisfy a lot of people. But this is going nowhere slow.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I recently tried to sort out a report at WP:AN3 from The Rambling Man (talk·contribs) against Johnbod (talk·contribs) on Saint Sebastian Tended by Saint Irene and various other articles; essentially TRM likes web citations to use the full {{cite web}}
template, while Johnbod prefers bare URLs manually formatted citations. I agree with TRM's point of view on this issue; however it's not an admin's job to take sides in a debate, so I had to close the report as "stale"; although Johnbod did violate 3RR, the last reported edit in the sequence was about 18 hours ago. Not to mention I need very solid policy-backed reasons to block a prolific mainspace contributor out of the blue.
As you might imagine, TRM is upset by my decision to mark the AN3 thread as stale, and both him and Johnbod have been trading mild insults towards each other on the talk page. So, could I request the wider community to have a look at the issue and see if there is a systemic problem with reverting well-formatted citations to bare URLs, whether this is a sanctionable issue (I know parts of the MOS are under discretionary sanctions but I'm too terrified to look at the specifics), and what action, if any, we should take. Thanks.
I really don't want to cause anguish and drama. I've met Johnbod at several London meetups and have had fruitful discussions with him, while TRM has been very helpful in conducting GA reviews when nobody else has stepped up to the plate. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:34, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ritchie333 "
Not to mention I need very solid policy-backed reasons to block a prolific mainspace contributor out of the blue.
" - What kind of horseshit is that? - wolf 03:35, 26 February 2019 (UTC) - Not always, Thewolfchild:
prolific mainspace contributor
s can also be blocked for reverting accusations of mental illness, only to be unblocked almost immediately with the rationalehe was obviously removing an unacceptable personal attack
:D ——SerialNumber54129 13:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)- Ritchie has met Johnbod in person and has indicated that he has a favourable relationship in person. So why he chose to create this shitstorm is beyond me, and highly questionable of his credentials, but meh, it is what it is. He refused to do anything about all the true and brightline violations, instead creating this timesink. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- [indeed, …] Would you be willing, within the bounds of our guidance on politeness, to identify those users who you have personally (sensu lato) interacted with and presented their opinions here? cygnis insignis 13:37, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- As stated a few lines above : "I really don't want to cause anguish and drama". I said the above as a way of saying "you are both good editors and I wish you'd get on". TRM, stop twisting my words, assuming bad faith and misunderstanding / misinterpreting what I say. If you can't do that, just ...... do something else. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 13:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Actions speak louder than words, you refused to do anything about clear NPAs, 3RR violations and rollback abuse, but you brought it here where you absolutely knew a shitstorm would brew up because "The Rambling Man" appeared in the title, which enabled and facilitated all the usual abuse to pour out. You caused nothing but anguish and drama. Simple as that. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ritchie has met Johnbod in person and has indicated that he has a favourable relationship in person. So why he chose to create this shitstorm is beyond me, and highly questionable of his credentials, but meh, it is what it is. He refused to do anything about all the true and brightline violations, instead creating this timesink. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ritchie333 "
- I don't think any DS or other sanctionable action applies; TRM has a civility-driven editing restriction on them but I don't see this crossing that line. I agree with the close, that as long as a talk page discussion is going and Johnbod is not engaging in 3RR over the same issue elsewhere, its not really actionable, but it should be clear to Johnbod that this idea of revert full-formatting changes to citations is not really acceptable and that if they are continuing to do that repeated after this incident, that could be actionable. --Masem (t) 17:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- The incivility was entirely from that user towards me. And please note the matter was closed without anyone even notifying that user that they had, indeed, contravened editing policy. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- That why (to be clear) I don't believe yours (TRM's) editing restriction even comes into play, only noting it is one of those areas of concern raised by Ritchie to just make sure what DSes and other restrictions are identified and if they applied. --Masem (t) 19:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I wasn't thinking about civility restrictions at all; Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation is what I had in mind, though I don't think it's relevant in this case. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- That why (to be clear) I don't believe yours (TRM's) editing restriction even comes into play, only noting it is one of those areas of concern raised by Ritchie to just make sure what DSes and other restrictions are identified and if they applied. --Masem (t) 19:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- The incivility was entirely from that user towards me. And please note the matter was closed without anyone even notifying that user that they had, indeed, contravened editing policy. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- (watching, and ec:) Johnbod doesn't prefer bare urls, but untemplated citations which is a big difference. - On the other hand, if someone improves my references (which happens often) I click "thank you", and don't use rollback. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Put quite simply, my aim was to improve the look and utility of any article going onto the main page. This was just one. Yet I was confronted with revert after revert, including abuse of rollback, along with accusations of being a vandal and a troll, and plenty of other commentary on my editing preferences. This particular user had come grave-dancing to my talk page last June, so it's clear that there's more to this than simply just reverting and violation of 3RR. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Speaking generally, this was a misuse of rollback; this edit-summary was needlessly patronising as well as containing a veiled hint at meat puppetry; and calling someone an idiot is generally unnecessary. FYI'all. ——SerialNumber54129 17:58, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:09, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- And Johnbod's reward for the abuse of rollback, the personal attacks and the brightline 3RR violation? His personally preferred version remains in place, and he continues such behaviour on at least one other article. Excellent result. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:18, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:09, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I agree with the closure of the AN3 report. If the edit warring seems to have stopped and the reported user is responding and participating in a relevant talk page discussion, blocking the user for edit warring wouldn't be the right action to take at this time. This of course would change once any edit warring continues - but as it stands, it would no longer prevent additional disruption to the project, but would instead prevent Johnbod from continuing to do the correct thing - which is to follow Wikipedia's dispute resolution protocol and discuss the dispute on the article's talk page, and come to a consensus. While I'm seeing a lot of back-and-forth bickering between the two on the article's talk page, that's a different issue typically not handled at AN3. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Blocking at ANEW is a popularity contest. Some will be blocked for 2RR, some escape blocking for 4RR. We should be consistent on this. No-one is forced to 4RR edit-war, not even established editors with friendly admins. So if they choose to do so, then they should not be surprised (and have no excuse if they are then silenced in any talk: threads) as a result. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:17, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this, which is why I chose to block neither editor. The only other fair option, as EdJohnston has stated on AN3, is to block both editors for edit warring. It has to be both, or neither. And blocking both would probably result in us coming here anyway. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 18:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- On what possible grounds could you have blocked me? Did I break 3RR, violate the terms of use of rollback, resort to multiple NPAs etc? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was talking about the general principle, rather than this specific incident. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 19:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, that's not helpful then. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was talking about the general principle, rather than this specific incident. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 19:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- On what possible grounds could you have blocked me? Did I break 3RR, violate the terms of use of rollback, resort to multiple NPAs etc? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this, which is why I chose to block neither editor. The only other fair option, as EdJohnston has stated on AN3, is to block both editors for edit warring. It has to be both, or neither. And blocking both would probably result in us coming here anyway. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 18:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Blocking at ANEW is a popularity contest. Some will be blocked for 2RR, some escape blocking for 4RR. We should be consistent on this. No-one is forced to 4RR edit-war, not even established editors with friendly admins. So if they choose to do so, then they should not be surprised (and have no excuse if they are then silenced in any talk: threads) as a result. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:17, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Clear tendentious, unconstructive edit-warring from Johnbod, so let's impose some sort of huge block or ban for The Rambling Man. It's The Wikipedia Way. Now get those wagons circled and close down all debate before anyone starts to look rationally at any of this mess. 8-(
- This is a right mess. Johnbod is demonstrating his perennial sense of OWNership on an article and its formatting, against all policy, practice or simply trying to make things better. But TRM is out of political favour. So close the ANEW report as "stale" (which is nonsense - Johnbod repeated the same changes just this morning) and instead find some excuse (for that's all it will be) as to why it's TRM's fault instead.
- As an example of organisational failure, this looks about as effective as the Labour Party. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Andy Dingley: Let's look at why people think that way. Sure, TRM may be right about how this article could be cited, but he could have gone about this in any number of less tendentious, less-drama-inducing ways. And this is hardly the first time where TRM has done something like this. Even though he has a lot of good contributions, he has an inability to get along with other editors, which has been pointed out to him countless times, and he's ignored the criticism almost every time. TRM's style has driven editors away from making good edits, and that's a big problem. pbp 16:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Am I correct in understanding that Johnbod is reverting to an MOS violating version and that TRM is reverting back? That being the case, Johnbod needs to stop doing that. Now. He should then follow all the standard remedies it takes for an editing dispute and achieve a consensus for his changes before adding them back. And maybe Johnbod should avoid TRM interactions in the future. Dlohcierekim(talk) 18:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- And as we are on a Civility kick of late,maybe a final warning to Johnbod on his rude, patronizing, incivil, uncollegeal edit summaries and comments as well. Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Gad. I am a slow reader. We need to remove rollback if this is what he uses it for. Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Without getting into the rest of this mess, I do think Johnbod needs to address their use of rollback in a content dispute; I have seen rollback flags removed for less. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ritchie333:Johnbod wasn't using bare URLs but manually written citations, which shouldn't be changed to templates over objections. See WP:CITEVAR. After Johnbod's first revert, the issue should have gone to talk. SarahSV(talk) 18:54, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, we all agree on that, but this does not excuse the various violations, including but not limited to 3RR, NPA, rollback abuse etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- What happened here is that Johnbod created an article about an area in which he has some expertise. You then arrived to make several changes, including changing his chosen citation style. When he reverted, you reverted back, and things got heated. The whole point of WP:CITEVAR is to prevent that. Therefore, you should either have checked on talk first and suggested the citation changes there, or you should have done so after the first revert. That applies to the other edits too, per WP:BRD. SarahSV(talk) 19:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds too close to ownership for my taste as noted by others. And what's the excuse for the 4RR after the discussion on the talk page? That's just fine and excusable is it? Along with the personal attacks and rollback abuse? What is also missing from this discussion is the fact that I wasn't simply "changing the style", I was making each and every reference correct and more comprehensive and less susceptible to linkrot. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's not about ownership but about respect for someone else's editing choices. I used to dislike citation templates, but then I started using them occasionally to teach myself how to do it, mostly for the benefit of linking short to long cites, but also for the benefit of avoiding linkrot, as you describe. Therefore, I do now sometimes add citation templates to articles with manual cites. But I do it only where it seems clear from the edit history that no one will mind. It would never occur to me to do it on an article recently created with manual cites by an experienced editor in his area of expertise. That would feel very provocative and doubly so to revert over his objections. That's why he got annoyed, and it all went downhill from there. SarahSV(talk) 19:31, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, by far the best way to improve such references is to add the citation templates and then include information (such as publisher, publication date, access date etc) that wasn't there to start with. Which is what I did. If someone gets so annoyed that they can resort to the various violations because I actively worked to improve the content and presentation of the templates, well that's a thing that seriously needs addressing. Trying to excuse the various violations because I kept trying to improve the references seems most peculiar to me. Seriously peculiar. Are you actually suggesting that to improve the verifiability of a source and reduce linkrot, we are stuck to existing formats, no matter what??? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's not about ownership but about respect for someone else's editing choices. I used to dislike citation templates, but then I started using them occasionally to teach myself how to do it, mostly for the benefit of linking short to long cites, but also for the benefit of avoiding linkrot, as you describe. Therefore, I do now sometimes add citation templates to articles with manual cites. But I do it only where it seems clear from the edit history that no one will mind. It would never occur to me to do it on an article recently created with manual cites by an experienced editor in his area of expertise. That would feel very provocative and doubly so to revert over his objections. That's why he got annoyed, and it all went downhill from there. SarahSV(talk) 19:31, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds too close to ownership for my taste as noted by others. And what's the excuse for the 4RR after the discussion on the talk page? That's just fine and excusable is it? Along with the personal attacks and rollback abuse? What is also missing from this discussion is the fact that I wasn't simply "changing the style", I was making each and every reference correct and more comprehensive and less susceptible to linkrot. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- What happened here is that Johnbod created an article about an area in which he has some expertise. You then arrived to make several changes, including changing his chosen citation style. When he reverted, you reverted back, and things got heated. The whole point of WP:CITEVAR is to prevent that. Therefore, you should either have checked on talk first and suggested the citation changes there, or you should have done so after the first revert. That applies to the other edits too, per WP:BRD. SarahSV(talk) 19:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, we all agree on that, but this does not excuse the various violations, including but not limited to 3RR, NPA, rollback abuse etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:CITEVAR states emphatically that "adding citation templates to an article that already uses a consistent system without templates" is "To be avoided". TRM was therefore wrong to do so and Johnbod was entitled to revert this action. Andrew D. (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- He wasn't entitled to use rollback, call me a troll and violate 3RR. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Not 4RR he wasn't. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree that the version that Johnbod was reverted back to was a "consistent", given that the books were in an appropriate form, while the named external link "references" lacked the same features that should be common to the book (date of publication, title of work, publication), and most importantly for an online reference, accessdate. TRMs version to make those named piped ELs into templates to match the books is bringing that inline with a consistent format. --Masem (t) 19:43, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Why is this even an issue? .... As far as I know filled out cites are better than bare URLs and IMHO are far more helpful to everyone, I don't quite understand why the need to revert and more specifically (like I said above) I don't quite understand why this is even an issue .... –Davey2010Talk 19:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Having just read CITEVAR apparently I've been violating it for well over 4 years although I've never once had any crap for it.... Maybe this should be updated to say Bare URLs should be filled in .... I don't see how Bare URLs can be better than it all being filled out?.... –Davey2010Talk 19:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OWN is enough. 8-( Just try disagreeing with Johnbod some time and see the abuse you receive. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's rather disappointing tbh, I could understand if this was a ENGVAR thing or DMY vs MDY but Bare URL V filled out ? .... really ? .... I like both editors both do great work here but I feel this really is a silly edit war over something that isn't a problem. –Davey2010Talk 19:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- As an aside this is the state of the article before TRMs edits - there are no bare URLs. There are some plain external links in the notes section, but no bare urls (which is something like https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Sebastian_Tended_by_Saint_Irene&oldid=882241816) It helps things if folks use correct terminology. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, and I'll reiterate, I wasn't changing the refs purely and simply to my preferred format, I was enhancing just about each and every one of them to include either corrected titles (for linkrot) or additional parameters (such as access dates) for the purposes of verifiability. To ensure consistent outputs after such edits, it is much simpler to use templates rather than try to hand-craft text into existing refs. I think it's very convenient to overlook the fact that I'm actively improving these articles for our readers, to mistakenly focus on some claim I'm violating CITEVAR (which isn't even a policy) and thus ignore the various violations committed by Johnbod, many of which were policy violations, even after discussion on the article's talkpage. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just wanted to clarify I was saying The Rambling Mans edits were fine and that he shouldn't of been reverted. –Davey2010Talk 20:30, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth, sorry, you're wrong. Why do you feel that your example is the only one that qualifies as a bare URL?
- The entire concept is devoted to maintaining accessibility in case of future link-rots. And, any URL inserted in whatever manner/form that does not give any minimal bibliographic info qualifies under it.
- Suppose the website mentioned over
<ref>[https://www.seattleartmuseum.org/Exhibitions/Details?EventId=16674 Seattle Art Museum]</ref>
goes for an entire remake (this's not a hypothetical; many major newspapers et al have undergone these changes) and the location of the contents are radically altered (incl. URLs, obviously). The current URL thus becomes non-useful and a layman can't parse much of any useful info from the URL in the above reference. So, as one proceeds to do a generic Gsearch using the name of the painting and the museum brings, he/she is greeted with this particular webpage as well as this page. - Tell me; about how I can be certain about which one was actually used by the article creator, without expending undue efforts (might be irrelevant over this part. case, since either suffices)?
- See WP:LINKROT and WP:BAREURLS ∯WBGconverse 16:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, and I'll reiterate, I wasn't changing the refs purely and simply to my preferred format, I was enhancing just about each and every one of them to include either corrected titles (for linkrot) or additional parameters (such as access dates) for the purposes of verifiability. To ensure consistent outputs after such edits, it is much simpler to use templates rather than try to hand-craft text into existing refs. I think it's very convenient to overlook the fact that I'm actively improving these articles for our readers, to mistakenly focus on some claim I'm violating CITEVAR (which isn't even a policy) and thus ignore the various violations committed by Johnbod, many of which were policy violations, even after discussion on the article's talkpage. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- As an aside this is the state of the article before TRMs edits - there are no bare URLs. There are some plain external links in the notes section, but no bare urls (which is something like https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Sebastian_Tended_by_Saint_Irene&oldid=882241816) It helps things if folks use correct terminology. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Andy Dingley, I think you really need to stop trolling Johnbod. It's pretty bloody obvious that you are trying to hit him below the belt at every possible point, and it's irritating and makes me want to take his side--even though I believe Johnbod was also in the wrong, just like his opponent. Drmies (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's rather disappointing tbh, I could understand if this was a ENGVAR thing or DMY vs MDY but Bare URL V filled out ? .... really ? .... I like both editors both do great work here but I feel this really is a silly edit war over something that isn't a problem. –Davey2010Talk 19:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OWN is enough. 8-( Just try disagreeing with Johnbod some time and see the abuse you receive. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think you really need to stop making excuses for why some editors get a free pass on 4RR (let alone Johnbod's complete disregard of CIVIL too). Also laying off the patronising attitude towards Davey, a 'newbie' of only 110 thousand edits, would be a good start. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ignoring any fallout post the ANEW discussion, looking at the state of the article prior to TRM's edit, I do not think WP:CITEVAR is sufficient to protect Johnbod's edits. Specifically, I would not be able to reproduce those citations to those URLs with the information in the page there should the pages go offline in some way, which is a requirement of the whole rest of the PAG in which CITEVAR is placed. It is sufficient to protect his choice to use manual rather than template citations, but I do not think it is sufficient to stop either a) corrections to add information to the citations or b) anyone from re-formatting the references to use a recognizable manual citation style (e.g. MLA/APA/Chicago, etc.). The more-appropriate action for both TRM and Johnbod to have taken would thus have been to add the information for each URL to the page in some sort of manual citation method and/or start a discussion on the talk page to change the page to use template citations. As a result, I think the decision that it would either be a block of none or both, rather than one or the other, was probably correct. --Izno (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is completely, wrong; I have gone into more detail at the article talk page. In particular you are ignoring that the key information to find the page when the museum changes all its addresses was already in the text. Eg "One of the earliest paintings of Sebastian being nursed is by Josse Lieferinxe in about 1497, part of a cycle from an altarpiece in Marseilles (now Philadelphia Museum of Art)" - that is what one would base a search on. In two cases TRM reverted several times to remove the key information (clearly because he did not realize that it was. And so on. Johnbod (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, I warned Johnbod he was about to hit 3RR so he just waited a few hours and went past it anyway. And that was after the personal attacks and rollback abuse. That's an overt brightline violation. I did not pass 3RR, nor engage in personal attacks, nor use rollback abusively. I'm not sure what you think I could possibly be blocked for. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:Edit warring:
The three-revert rule is a convenient limit for occasions when an edit war is happening fairly quickly, but it is not a definition of "edit warring", and it is perfectly possible to edit war without breaking the three-revert rule, or even coming close to doing so.
As you'll note, I did not comment on personal attacks, rollback, or other items. "His behavior was worse" does not absolve your behavior, nor the fact that you had alternative paths to adding the information that WP:V/WP:Citing sources requires for the citations in question. --Izno (talk) 21:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)- I was using standard citation templates which enable us to present to our readers a consistent and professional approach, and adding more comprehensive detail to each rather than simply changing the format. It's remarkable to see how many people are here defending the bright line violation of 3RR, amongst other things. And no, I was doing what was in the best interests of our readers (and our project, see WP:LINKROT), not focusing on the needs of an individual user. My "behavior" was simply that, to promote excellence and verifiability on the main page, but apparently the bureaucracy now is such that the main point of Wikipedia appears to have been lost in defending the indefensible. But in summary, thanks for your neither/both conclusion. I'm not sure how it helps now we're much further down the line. As you yourself acknowledge, there are many other issues now, with regard to the brightline 3RR failure, the abuse of rollback, the personal attacks etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:Edit warring:
- No, I warned Johnbod he was about to hit 3RR so he just waited a few hours and went past it anyway. And that was after the personal attacks and rollback abuse. That's an overt brightline violation. I did not pass 3RR, nor engage in personal attacks, nor use rollback abusively. I'm not sure what you think I could possibly be blocked for. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is a sorry mess. TRM is often seen on this board as a troublemaker, but Johnbod's abuse of rollback (which is for vandals and vandals only) in a content dispute is a big red flag. Support a sanction of Johnbod for rollback abuse and violating WP:OWN. Miniapolis 22:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Miniapolis: Johnbod has been a rollbacker since 2008. It would be a pity if he were to lose it because of one use during this dispute; it's normally removed for persistent misuse. Perhaps instead he could be reminded to follow WP:ROLLBACK, and The Rambling Man could be reminded to respect WP:CITEVAR and WP:BRD. SarahSV(talk) 00:10, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Miniapolis and SlimVirgin: I have asked Johnbod above to explain his use of rollback. I think the decision about whether to sanction him is very much contingent on his response; that it was a mis-step is certain, but the real question is whether there's danger of a repeat. Also, if the problem is rollback abuse, I wouldn't support any sanction other than pulling the rollback flag, because that's the most obvious preventative measure. Again, whether that's necessary depends upon his response. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Miniapolis: Johnbod has been a rollbacker since 2008. It would be a pity if he were to lose it because of one use during this dispute; it's normally removed for persistent misuse. Perhaps instead he could be reminded to follow WP:ROLLBACK, and The Rambling Man could be reminded to respect WP:CITEVAR and WP:BRD. SarahSV(talk) 00:10, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is a sorry mess. TRM is often seen on this board as a troublemaker, but Johnbod's abuse of rollback (which is for vandals and vandals only) in a content dispute is a big red flag. Support a sanction of Johnbod for rollback abuse and violating WP:OWN. Miniapolis 22:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
(←) Duly pinged :-). Under the circumstances, I agree that Johnbod shouldn't lose the rollback flag solely on the basis of this. However, I've been around long enough to know that WP is a house of alliances and there's often a rush to judgement in any dispute involving TRM. The sorry mess is when two experienced editors square off over what should be a non-issue. Miniapolis 02:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- We have WP:CITEVAR for a number of good reasons, and changing someone's established citation style (which according to everyone was NOT bare URLs, but a citation style preferred by MANY of us) amounts to just being plain stubborn and intrusive about something not worth being pig-headed about. SlimVirgin is right, Davey2010 probably needs more editing experience to understand how and why we have CITEVAR and how irritating it is to write an article to a certain standard and then have someone arbitrarily change it, and will we ever see the day when TRM stops behaving like this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- User:SandyGeorgia "Davey2010 probably needs more editing experience to understand how and why we have CITEVAR" - You make it sound like I'm new here .... I've been here 5-6 years although granted I don't know every policy on the project, I know what CITEVAR is ... I've just never bothered following it. –Davey2010Talk 00:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, I didn't say anything about how long you've been here. I did point out that SlimVirgin has experience with CITEVAR and producing top content, as does Johnbod, and there are a whole lotta people weighing in here who know nothing about either. Ealdgyth, who has weighed in, was one of maybe three of the top people for evaluating sources and citations at FAC a few years ago, and I doubt that anyone has risen to her level of knowledge in my absence from FAC. And it is quite apparent that a bunch of people weighing in here are probably used to citing articles from google using websites, and have never encountered a correctly written short-form citation for a real library source, which is what the link to Ealdgyth's version of Johnbod's article shows. Pure case of capricious CITEVAR breach by TRM. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- User:Davey2010, sorry, but SandyGeorgia and SlimVirgin are absolutely correct. It is understandable that you haven't learned about CITEVAR even in 5 or 6 years, but if, like those two editors and myself, you get around in odd places and hang out with editors who are old hands, you will discover a thing or two. CITEVAR was new to me too a couple of years ago, and I didn't like it at the time cause I'm always right (just like you are, just like Johnbod is, just like TRM is), but it is what it is--and its purpose is to prevent edit wars over citation styles. And I also believe TRM was well aware of it--and that Johnbod was wrong to use rollback in that way, and should not have used personal insults in edit summaries. Drmies (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia & Drmies - fair dos, I've never written an article in my life so maybe I don't know CITEVAR as well as a thought I did .... –Davey2010Talk 11:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, Drmies, I don't think SandyGeorgia and SlimVirgin are right here. CITEVAR protects referencing styles, that's true, but it doesn't justify removing citation information meant to protect from linkrot. If Johnbod had removed the templates that TRM added but kept the additional citation information then CITEVAR would protect his edits as restoring the original style. If TRM had then tried to re-insert templates, Sandy's description of a "capricious CITEVAR breach" would likely be accurate... but that's not what happened. After Johnbod's first revert, TRM should have re-added the information in a non-templated style, but then Johnbod shouldn't have removed that information. There is certainly blame on both sides here, but Johnbod's actions are not wholly protected by CITEVAR as he removed useful citation information in reverting / ROLLBACKing and edit warring to keep these details out of the referencing. As you said, CITEVAR is meant to "prevent edit wars over citation styles", and in that regard TRM is in the wrong, but Johnbod was also edit warring over citation content, and in that area is not protected at all by CITEVAR. EdChem (talk) 05:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering. If TRM wants to add something to an existing style, he can discuss on talk how he might do that without altering the style. Unlike Davey2010 (thanks for the acknowledgement, much appreciated), TRM does know about CITEVAR, should know how to use a talk page, and should know by now that he needs to stop these kinds of behaviors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- EdChem, thank you--I don't think think you're wikilawyering, and you have a point, but what you're suggesting places the onus completely on the person whose style was changed: the other editor added something, possibly something of value, but against our rules of engagement, and then the burden is on the person reverting to the original style to not remove anything that was added... I'm reminded of the occasions when you run into a disruptive editor (I did so yesterday) who makes a bunch of changes, in this case BLP violations, and when you roll them back they point at the one little thing that was helpful. Again, I don't think those considerations are much help here, but nevertheless they are there. If this had been just about undoing anti-CITEVAR changes this could have been relatively simple. BTW I note that this is the second time in recent history that a senior editor is questioned about rollback. Many a time have I warned new editors about it (and Twinkle, etc.); it behooves us all to be more careful. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, I appreciate you recognising the issue I was raising and accepting my comment in good faith. I, in turn, recognise that retaining the positive aspects of a change can be difficult, especially when dealing with disruption and vandalism, etc... but I don't think it was difficult for Johnbod to retain the original style while incorporating TRM's additions / improvements. I also recognise that it was not difficult for TRM to make his changes without altering the citation style once Johnbod's objection was clear. The onus was on both of them to behave as adults and colleagues and work together. Neither did so. Had either one acted as I suggest, this would not have ended up where it has. I have taken the initiative and removed all citation templates (per CITEVAR) while retaining the information that was added. It is disappointing that neither did so and both have acted poorly in my view. SandyGeorgia, I do not appreciate your labelling me a wikilawyer as I see it as both inaccurate and perjorative. I have no problem with TRM adding information to citations nor changing the style, but I do 100% agree that once Johnbod had objected to the style change, CITEVAR meant returning to the non-template form was not only justified, but arguably required. TRM was wrong to debate the style... but Johnbod was wrong to object to additional useful information being provided. Either could have solved the dispute by changing to non-template citations with all available information retained. Neither did. Johnbod used rollback and inappropriate language, TRM refused to back down on CITEVAR even though policy was against him, and here we are. Your comments below show a disappointing lack of good faith in the contributions of others, and read to me as partisan. Both Johnbod and TRM make valuable contributions. Both have made mistakes here, and both have escalated what should have been a minor disagreement. I am hoping this can blow over because any other outcome would be excessive, but I'm not going to waste more time on it. May I ask that you reflect on whether this is really worth devoting a lot of time and effort to? EdChem (talk) 03:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- 'I see a way to read your countering point as partisan, I am there therefore impartial in my judgemnt'; 'I'm saying you may lack AGF, therefore you are wasting people's time and being disruptive.'; 'I see a way that a guideline supports TRMs edit, therefore this is a minor content dispute and there is nothing to see here'; 'I will not be commenting further, so neither should you'; 'Faults on both sides, so guy I'm defending cannot be held accountable for their faults'. I read these defences of TRM and can only suppose that users are either completely unaware of the arbitrated resolutions or think they should not exist. Or they are mates. Or tickled by his feisty manner, an avatar for their frustration in being disagreed with, the guy who just states how it must be and the user disengages (or leaves the site, "fuck them anyway, they disagreed on trivial concern Y that I invested a month in drumming about".). Or he is their client, therefore I can say of them … cygnis insignis 04:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC) modified, should be toned down, but JB is the only party who has shown contrition for their actions, 'the rollback, what about the rollback' (buttery males?) cygnis insignis 05:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Cygnis insignis, I am disappointed to read what I see as a highly distorted version of my comments, and also that no one else has challenged them. I did not suggest, nor do I believe, that SandyGeorgia was being disruptive or wasting people's time. She made, in my view, valid points about the applicability of CITEVAR and TRM's edits were inconsistent with that, for which he is, of course, accountable. As is Johnbod accountable for his calling TRM a vandal, using ROLLBACK, and posting snarky edit summaries. Neither handled the situation appropriately: Johnbod should not have removed information that was useful and appropriate to avoiding linkrot in references; TRM should not have insisted on template formatting of those references as the way to retain the information. And yes, I do think this should have been resolved on the article talk page with some adult behaviour and discussion. The fact that Johnbod has acknowledged the misuse of rollback is a significant factor in how to resolve this situation, and I would welcome TRM recognising that he should not have kept pushing for his template citation version. I do believe that this dispute is one calling for trouts as I don't see anything that heinous in either case, and I strongly believe that it should have never reached ANI. You can accuse me of failing to recognise that I have opinions and biases, but that is really for others to consider in reflecting on my words. You can see me as a partisan whose only interest is defending TRM, but I believe that my track record shows otherwise. I have no control over what happens next, and am not going to argue for / against sanctions as I don't see it as a productive use of my time – rather, I have posted with thoughts on ending this dispute, which will either be a useful addition to the thread, or not. You, and Sandy, and everyone else are free to argue as you wish. EdChem (talk) 08:04, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- EdChem there are many things I wanted to contribute to this conversation, typed and not saved. Exasperation at this incident, and not a little astonishment, means contributing anything is likely to fuel something. I was aware that my response above carried all the frustration at the hopelessly partisan support that is facilitating TRMs undesirable activities, you got in the way of that, I will consider my actions and add to my apology later. Have a good one cygnis insignis 08:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Cygnis insignis, I am disappointed to read what I see as a highly distorted version of my comments, and also that no one else has challenged them. I did not suggest, nor do I believe, that SandyGeorgia was being disruptive or wasting people's time. She made, in my view, valid points about the applicability of CITEVAR and TRM's edits were inconsistent with that, for which he is, of course, accountable. As is Johnbod accountable for his calling TRM a vandal, using ROLLBACK, and posting snarky edit summaries. Neither handled the situation appropriately: Johnbod should not have removed information that was useful and appropriate to avoiding linkrot in references; TRM should not have insisted on template formatting of those references as the way to retain the information. And yes, I do think this should have been resolved on the article talk page with some adult behaviour and discussion. The fact that Johnbod has acknowledged the misuse of rollback is a significant factor in how to resolve this situation, and I would welcome TRM recognising that he should not have kept pushing for his template citation version. I do believe that this dispute is one calling for trouts as I don't see anything that heinous in either case, and I strongly believe that it should have never reached ANI. You can accuse me of failing to recognise that I have opinions and biases, but that is really for others to consider in reflecting on my words. You can see me as a partisan whose only interest is defending TRM, but I believe that my track record shows otherwise. I have no control over what happens next, and am not going to argue for / against sanctions as I don't see it as a productive use of my time – rather, I have posted with thoughts on ending this dispute, which will either be a useful addition to the thread, or not. You, and Sandy, and everyone else are free to argue as you wish. EdChem (talk) 08:04, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- 'I see a way to read your countering point as partisan, I am there therefore impartial in my judgemnt'; 'I'm saying you may lack AGF, therefore you are wasting people's time and being disruptive.'; 'I see a way that a guideline supports TRMs edit, therefore this is a minor content dispute and there is nothing to see here'; 'I will not be commenting further, so neither should you'; 'Faults on both sides, so guy I'm defending cannot be held accountable for their faults'. I read these defences of TRM and can only suppose that users are either completely unaware of the arbitrated resolutions or think they should not exist. Or they are mates. Or tickled by his feisty manner, an avatar for their frustration in being disagreed with, the guy who just states how it must be and the user disengages (or leaves the site, "fuck them anyway, they disagreed on trivial concern Y that I invested a month in drumming about".). Or he is their client, therefore I can say of them … cygnis insignis 04:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC) modified, should be toned down, but JB is the only party who has shown contrition for their actions, 'the rollback, what about the rollback' (buttery males?) cygnis insignis 05:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, I appreciate you recognising the issue I was raising and accepting my comment in good faith. I, in turn, recognise that retaining the positive aspects of a change can be difficult, especially when dealing with disruption and vandalism, etc... but I don't think it was difficult for Johnbod to retain the original style while incorporating TRM's additions / improvements. I also recognise that it was not difficult for TRM to make his changes without altering the citation style once Johnbod's objection was clear. The onus was on both of them to behave as adults and colleagues and work together. Neither did so. Had either one acted as I suggest, this would not have ended up where it has. I have taken the initiative and removed all citation templates (per CITEVAR) while retaining the information that was added. It is disappointing that neither did so and both have acted poorly in my view. SandyGeorgia, I do not appreciate your labelling me a wikilawyer as I see it as both inaccurate and perjorative. I have no problem with TRM adding information to citations nor changing the style, but I do 100% agree that once Johnbod had objected to the style change, CITEVAR meant returning to the non-template form was not only justified, but arguably required. TRM was wrong to debate the style... but Johnbod was wrong to object to additional useful information being provided. Either could have solved the dispute by changing to non-template citations with all available information retained. Neither did. Johnbod used rollback and inappropriate language, TRM refused to back down on CITEVAR even though policy was against him, and here we are. Your comments below show a disappointing lack of good faith in the contributions of others, and read to me as partisan. Both Johnbod and TRM make valuable contributions. Both have made mistakes here, and both have escalated what should have been a minor disagreement. I am hoping this can blow over because any other outcome would be excessive, but I'm not going to waste more time on it. May I ask that you reflect on whether this is really worth devoting a lot of time and effort to? EdChem (talk) 03:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- User:Davey2010, sorry, but SandyGeorgia and SlimVirgin are absolutely correct. It is understandable that you haven't learned about CITEVAR even in 5 or 6 years, but if, like those two editors and myself, you get around in odd places and hang out with editors who are old hands, you will discover a thing or two. CITEVAR was new to me too a couple of years ago, and I didn't like it at the time cause I'm always right (just like you are, just like Johnbod is, just like TRM is), but it is what it is--and its purpose is to prevent edit wars over citation styles. And I also believe TRM was well aware of it--and that Johnbod was wrong to use rollback in that way, and should not have used personal insults in edit summaries. Drmies (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, I didn't say anything about how long you've been here. I did point out that SlimVirgin has experience with CITEVAR and producing top content, as does Johnbod, and there are a whole lotta people weighing in here who know nothing about either. Ealdgyth, who has weighed in, was one of maybe three of the top people for evaluating sources and citations at FAC a few years ago, and I doubt that anyone has risen to her level of knowledge in my absence from FAC. And it is quite apparent that a bunch of people weighing in here are probably used to citing articles from google using websites, and have never encountered a correctly written short-form citation for a real library source, which is what the link to Ealdgyth's version of Johnbod's article shows. Pure case of capricious CITEVAR breach by TRM. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- User:SandyGeorgia "Davey2010 probably needs more editing experience to understand how and why we have CITEVAR" - You make it sound like I'm new here .... I've been here 5-6 years although granted I don't know every policy on the project, I know what CITEVAR is ... I've just never bothered following it. –Davey2010Talk 00:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Looking at the citations in the pre-dispute version linked by Ealdgyth, this was not an adequate citation “style” to begin with. Shorthand references and abbreviations are not proper citations, and I am astonished that anyone is questioning filling in the complete cites. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 01:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- You are completely incorrect. Short form citations most certainly are correct and acceptable when the long-form citation is given elsewhere, as in a separate section. Please take the time to find the page on Wikipedia that explains that, as I am not going to do it for you, or alternately, look at the GOBS of Featured Articles that do exactly that form, rather than repeat ad nauseum every long-form citation in articles densely packed with real citations to real books. Again, the people who are making this claim have probably never used real books to write articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the citations? For many of these the long-form citations were not given. For instance, there were cites reading "LACMA page" with a link; "Image" with a link and nothing else; "MFA, Boston page," etc. These are incomplete and in no way acceptable, per WP:CITE. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I shudder with despair every time I see a heading "X and The Rambling Man". Regardless, the precedent here seems clear: in reference style disputes the status quo ante bellum always prevails. (If there's sufficient appetite otherwise, ask on my talk page about starting an RFC.) Neither of them should be commended for their behavior here, but likewise neither should be sanctioned, and Johnbod's version of content should prevail. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, that's not what CITEVAR (which is being parroted here as policy gospel) says at all. And the fact that I wasn't simply changing the style, but actually improving and adding additional information to aid verifiability means that mandating the preservation of extant style is even more ludicrous. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:10, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Johnbod response I'm sure we don't need to prolong this, so I'll just thank many people for the sensible comments above. No my citations (most to single museum website pages on paintings) were not bare URLs, & part of my complaint was that TRM several times removed the key bibliographic info from one citation (& has refused to grasp this). Really TRM's topic ban for DYK should cover things like this also (irf it already doesn't). Johnbod (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: Several users above have questioned your use of rollback, yet you have not addressed that at all. Let me ask you directly, again: why did you use rollback in a content dispute? Can you commit to not doing it again? Vanamonde (Talk) 03:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- With respect Vanamonde, your questions reeks of uniformed jumping in; given the established sequence of TRM following JB about here. Its important not to confuse run of the mill instances of justified and correct uses of roll back with encounters where the antagonist is clearly hounding. Ceoil (talk) 03:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@Ceoil: I can perhaps see why you think that, but you're quite wrong. I'm not
ignoringblind to TRM's infractions: I'm leaving those to people who are uninvolved, and to whom TRM has a less allergic reaction. Explore the last couple of ARCA requests related to TRM if you wish to understand why. Regardless, the fact is that editors with the rollback flag are required to keep their cool and not use that button even in heated content disputes. An one-off slip-up is not something to lose the flag over, but Johnbod needs to convince us that it was, indeed, one-off. Ignoring requests for explanation from neutral administrators, and generally avoiding the issue altogether, isn't helpful. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)- Point taken Vanamonde. My POV is that Johnbod is a highly productive editor of some odd 14 years experience, who is a content expert on the article subject TRM is now foraging upon with MOS niceties. Johnbod has never been particularly litigious, as opposed to TRM, who lets be honest, is a loose cannon and so pumped up on hubris he is like a man in a late night carpark looking for a fight. Poke the bear often enough and you will get a response, seeminglythe basis for which you now (it seems) are grasping at to strip JB of editor rights. To put it another way, "the last couple of ARCA requests", which you brough up, are TRM'S baggage, and nobody else's. Some projection and false equivalency might be at play here. Ceoil (talk) 03:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- What a ridiculous comment. His misuse of rollback should be evaluated, and he should answer the questions about how he will use it it in the future and explain that he actually understands what it should be used for. If he doesn't respond, then he should lose the bit until he does. Nihlus 04:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Point taken Vanamonde. My POV is that Johnbod is a highly productive editor of some odd 14 years experience, who is a content expert on the article subject TRM is now foraging upon with MOS niceties. Johnbod has never been particularly litigious, as opposed to TRM, who lets be honest, is a loose cannon and so pumped up on hubris he is like a man in a late night carpark looking for a fight. Poke the bear often enough and you will get a response, seeminglythe basis for which you now (it seems) are grasping at to strip JB of editor rights. To put it another way, "the last couple of ARCA requests", which you brough up, are TRM'S baggage, and nobody else's. Some projection and false equivalency might be at play here. Ceoil (talk) 03:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@Ceoil: I can perhaps see why you think that, but you're quite wrong. I'm not
- With respect Vanamonde, your questions reeks of uniformed jumping in; given the established sequence of TRM following JB about here. Its important not to confuse run of the mill instances of justified and correct uses of roll back with encounters where the antagonist is clearly hounding. Ceoil (talk) 03:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: Several users above have questioned your use of rollback, yet you have not addressed that at all. Let me ask you directly, again: why did you use rollback in a content dispute? Can you commit to not doing it again? Vanamonde (Talk) 03:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Okay, this is clearly getting off-topic and going nowhere fast. Please stop, and keep the discussion focused on the matters at-hand. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 07:15, 23 February 2019 (UTC) |
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- (edit conflict × 4) (Oh, FFS, dial it back a little, folks) @Ceoil: I'm not analyzing TRM's behavior for the reasons described above. I'm not seeking to strip Johnbod of his rights: if I wanted to, I'd be justified in doing so right away. I'm asking Johnbod to reassure us that rollback removal is unnecessary, something which he is refusing to do, for reasons best known to himself, though it's as simple as saying "I screwed up, won't happen next time". Again, everyone makes mistakes in the heat of the moment, and they're often quite excusable. What's not excusable is doubling down on the mistake even after things have cooled off (or, as in this case, behaving like the child who, when chastised, goes around with their fingers in their ears saying "la la la I can't hear you"). I'm counting at least three different admins here (Dlohcierekim, Miniapolis, and myself), none of whom are exactly TRM's best friends, who are asking Johnbod about his use of rollback, and he has pointedly ignored at least three pings from us. Why? Vanamonde (Talk) 04:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: I think this should be closed. People are sniping at each other and things are escalating. My guess is that Johnbod is trying to keep his responses to a minimum; perhaps he feels baited because TRM has gone to another article Johnbod created and tried to change the citation style there too. Something to bear in mind: you implied above that you're involved in relation to TRM. If I understood that correctly, it means you're involved in relation to Johnbod too, for this dispute. Otherwise it would mean you could sanction one but not the other, which would be very unfair. Does anyone object to this being closed? SarahSV(talk) 04:55, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree: TRM and I have been in conflict before, but my ability to judge Johnbod's behavior isn't impaired in the least. Were I the only admin contemplating action here, that may be unfair, but I'm not. As for this conversation degenerating: Ceoil and I have made our peace. Hatting the back-and-forth between Ceoil and Nihlus wouldn't hurt, I suppose: but Johnbod needs to address his use of rollback somewhere, and I don't think he's going to find a more sympathetic audience. I'm willing to follow that up on his talk page if necessary, but I despise parallel conversations, so for that reason, too, I think this needs to remain open. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: I think this should be closed. People are sniping at each other and things are escalating. My guess is that Johnbod is trying to keep his responses to a minimum; perhaps he feels baited because TRM has gone to another article Johnbod created and tried to change the citation style there too. Something to bear in mind: you implied above that you're involved in relation to TRM. If I understood that correctly, it means you're involved in relation to Johnbod too, for this dispute. Otherwise it would mean you could sanction one but not the other, which would be very unfair. Does anyone object to this being closed? SarahSV(talk) 04:55, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 4) (Oh, FFS, dial it back a little, folks) @Ceoil: I'm not analyzing TRM's behavior for the reasons described above. I'm not seeking to strip Johnbod of his rights: if I wanted to, I'd be justified in doing so right away. I'm asking Johnbod to reassure us that rollback removal is unnecessary, something which he is refusing to do, for reasons best known to himself, though it's as simple as saying "I screwed up, won't happen next time". Again, everyone makes mistakes in the heat of the moment, and they're often quite excusable. What's not excusable is doubling down on the mistake even after things have cooled off (or, as in this case, behaving like the child who, when chastised, goes around with their fingers in their ears saying "la la la I can't hear you"). I'm counting at least three different admins here (Dlohcierekim, Miniapolis, and myself), none of whom are exactly TRM's best friends, who are asking Johnbod about his use of rollback, and he has pointedly ignored at least three pings from us. Why? Vanamonde (Talk) 04:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Having had my own disagreements with TRM on CITEVAR (specifically over whether it is ok to change one allowed date format to another) I can see why Johnbod might have been annoyed. I think no action is required here, perhaps beyond reminding TRM that CITEVAR is there for a reason (to head off this kind of stupid dispute). —David Eppstein (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- It seems to me that TRM is far more interested in Johnbod than Johnbod is in TRM, and the pursuit is one sided. Tonight I got into this nonsense on an article Johnbod wrote, without realising the broader harassment campaign had reached an an/i complaint. In context, this is textbook following and baiting behavior on behalf of TRM. For the first time in my 14 odd years here, I see a need for a block of an established user acting prob in good faith but who is intent is misguided; enough blind hubris already, if allowed to continue unabated the potential to damage productive editors is great. Ceoil (talk) 02:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- There is a lot here that is unimpressive. Johnbod might object to the stylistic (template v. no template) aspect of TRM's changes on CITEVAR grounds, but would have a lot more basis had he undone TRM's changes but retained the extra information that TRM had provided to address linkrot concerns. Instead, he did complete reverts, and worse, did them with rollback and thereby classified TRM's work as vandalism. The information about Caxton, which Johnbod insisted must remain, could easily have been incorporated with TRM's work (I know as I've made the changes now). That this could not be sorted out on the article talk page is poor, that it degenerated into insults from Johnbod is worse, and that time is being lost now here is wasteful. Johnbod, you should immediately explain what you were thinking by ROLLBACKing in violation of policy, and undertake to follow policy in future... because the only one at risk of a sanction here is you. You should also recognise that CITEVAR may protect a style but it does not justify removing information that helps address linkrot. The Rambling Man, you need to accept that CITEVAR does protect referencing styles, as much as that might irritate you (and me and others) but does not prevent you from adding appropriate additional information. EdChem (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- There was only one rollback, at the 2nd reversion by me, with my first reversion, TRM's reversion of that & my re-reversion by rollback all occuring within 10 minutes. Obviously I appreciate this wasn't in accordance with the rules, & is not how I normally act, but my previous edit summary still applied, & TRM was clearly well aware what was going on, which the main reason rollback is so restricted. Clearly it was a mistake, which I regret, not least because it has given him an excuse to turn the self-righteousness up to 11. really can't see that access dates, the only extra information TRM added, are at all useful in addressing linkrot in reaching stuff that will always be on the web somewhere, but where the address may change over time. What you need is the details that will enable you to find a new page, some of which TRM removed, as he has never admitted. Frankly the extra details you added aren't really much help for that, I'd imagine. Johnbod (talk) 05:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just a quick look at your edit history sees various misuses of rollback in the last month alone. This is not a one-off. And as for the use of personal attacks, perhaps we can deal with that too? And imagine what you will, the addition of correctly titled references with access dates is helpful indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Details please. Johnbod (talk) 05:15, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- You'll have to do that research yourself, but there's a good reason we have all the parameters in reference templates and a good reason why we even have tools which add them. Inappropriate rollback use? Here's, afew. But that's just from last week or so. I'm catching my flight to Australia now, but I'm happy to find more as and when I can (it's easy enough to do, just search "Tag: Rollback" and check that the edit was appropriate use of the tool). The Rambling Man (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- When in Australia, swim between the flags, there is a serious hazard in straying beyond them. In a similar vein, don't speak to strangers in the way you do online. Have a safe journey. cygnis insignis 09:15, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The "there's a good reason we have all the parameters in reference templates" is that some techies who rarely write articles at all want them, for reasons not always logical or helpful, and that's why many FA writers don't use these templates at all. Hence, CITEVAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, it's nothing to do with "techies" and your continued suggestion that this is content vs. technical is unhelpful and disingenuous, I'd ask you to stop. I have crafted multiple featured articles and hundreds of good articles, so attempting to assert that the improvement of content of citations is related to some techies who rarely write articles at all want them, for reasons not always logical or helpful is actually deeply insulting, completely inaccurate and needs addressing. A retraction would be a good start, but further, an acknowledgement that some editors can create featured articles and be aware and implement technically good content would be a great addition. If CITEVAR is just here to protect those who aren't able to fill in relevant and helpful and linkrot-proof details, we need to re-examine it. CITEVAR should not be about "I had it first" (that's exactly what my five-year-old says), it should be about "preserve yet improve". And if improvement comes with additional markup, tough luck. If that's too difficult to handle, just ask for help, many of us are more than happy to help with technical issues such as {{cite web}}. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- You'll have to do that research yourself, but there's a good reason we have all the parameters in reference templates and a good reason why we even have tools which add them. Inappropriate rollback use? Here's, afew. But that's just from last week or so. I'm catching my flight to Australia now, but I'm happy to find more as and when I can (it's easy enough to do, just search "Tag: Rollback" and check that the edit was appropriate use of the tool). The Rambling Man (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Details please. Johnbod (talk) 05:15, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just a quick look at your edit history sees various misuses of rollback in the last month alone. This is not a one-off. And as for the use of personal attacks, perhaps we can deal with that too? And imagine what you will, the addition of correctly titled references with access dates is helpful indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- So as I said above, CITEVAR notes that references can be improved, and additional information added, which is what I did. In order to do that in an orderly fashion, it's just appropriate to use templates, so all references have a common look-and-feel. CITEVAR is not there to just protect the "I got here first" mentality, especially not when all the modifications being made actively improved the article for our readers. Nothing that Johnbod claims "went missing" couldn't be simply added to those improved refs. Instead, we get 3RR violation, NPAs and rollback abuse. And then a pile-on from his mates, who now claim that even reusing references is covered by CITEVAR. What a terrible state of affairs. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- "... it's just appropriate to use templates, so all references have a common look-and-feel" is no different from ... it's just appropriate to use infoboxes, so all articles have a common look-and-feel. You are as wrong as that was. So perhaps we need an infobox wars style restriction on your editing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:02, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- There was only one rollback, at the 2nd reversion by me, with my first reversion, TRM's reversion of that & my re-reversion by rollback all occuring within 10 minutes. Obviously I appreciate this wasn't in accordance with the rules, & is not how I normally act, but my previous edit summary still applied, & TRM was clearly well aware what was going on, which the main reason rollback is so restricted. Clearly it was a mistake, which I regret, not least because it has given him an excuse to turn the self-righteousness up to 11. really can't see that access dates, the only extra information TRM added, are at all useful in addressing linkrot in reaching stuff that will always be on the web somewhere, but where the address may change over time. What you need is the details that will enable you to find a new page, some of which TRM removed, as he has never admitted. Frankly the extra details you added aren't really much help for that, I'd imagine. Johnbod (talk) 05:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Johnbod is indeed a creator of quality content, and I for one know I can learn much from him; to such an extent that I booked myself into a Wikimedia UK event he was speaking at on the very topic last year.However, the rollback tool is probably the most powerful tool non-admins possess, as there is surely no surer a guarantee of driving off a noob with potential that undoing their edit without so much a by-you-leave. It’s something I tend to notice and point out for that reason. But, tbh, although Johnbod asked TRM for details as to previous examples of misusing the tool—which I see were provided—Johnbod doesn’t ‘’really’’ need to ask, as he has two messages from a couple of days ago still sitting on his talk page regarding the very issue.The context for these was that I had reverted an LTA trolling User:Legacypac’s talk. This was rolled back by JB, who left me what could be read as a slightly snarky message. To which I gave my reasons. It’s probably worth noting that another editor also asked JB about his restoring the LTA; I don’t think, to date, that he has had the courtesy of a reply.TL;DR—rollback is a powerful tool which, when misused and combined with less than optimal communication is guaranteed to lead to a rapid deterioration in the editing atmosphere. As I said, I have the greatest respect as JB as a content creator, and I equally agree that TRM needs, sometimes, to tone the fuck down. But, considering that only recently an admin came unusually close to losing their bit over the misuse of rollback, I’m mildly surprised that this is not being addressed slightly more—vigorously, perhaps. ——SerialNumber54129 12:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Has the user misused the tool in many other situations, or generally put it to good use as others have suggested above. I strongly agree that misuse of rollback, especially the thousands who are permanently discouraged from contributing, but I am inclined to overlook its use in this incident. Being on the receiving end is a repeated concern by TRM, an apology is appropriate to any user, and the user should be unsurprised that fuelled a fractious conversation. That aside, I wanted to clarify I am not aware of JBs history beyond the content I notice they created, I'm guessing because they are not usually engaging with other creators in the midst of creating content or looking with satisfaction in that they have wrought. I am aware of TRMs other activities because that was how I became aware of his forthright opinion of me. This is largely a product of a cultural structures in our community, unfortunately resembling the boyish domineering so prevalent in our respective societies, and it is annoying AF. cygnis insignis 15:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal
Something needs to be done to stop TRM from following engaging Johnbod articles.( Updated, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)) Johnbod has and has always had very clear areas of editing interests and his knowledge in those areas is valuable. Stop bickering about the little stuff when the bigger problem is TRM needs to leave Johnbod alone. Please figure out a way to make that happen. I have been watching TRM harass other editors (usually writers who contribute top content) for more than a decade now. Rather than dorking around about citations and styles (where most people weighing in here are filling space with specious opinions), this board should be addressing the broader problem, which has been in evidence for years. Either TRM needs to be reminded of something like the infobox wars (don't change what was established there) or he needs to stay away from Johnbod period or his long-standing behaviors need to be dealt with in whatever way that can be done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Further to what I just said above, agree with the sentiments expressed above wholeheartedly. cygnis insignis 15:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC) Clarify that I went a few rounds with the TRM recently, and should probably be admonished meself for my reaction to what I perceive as thuggery, I have a COI here. cygnis insignis 15:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC) Also, this carries a lot of my general grievance with edit warring. cygnis insignis 18:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Honestly, this edit is genuinely brilliant. I'm really tired of all this, but I had to laugh. You just created an exemplar, so thank you! The Rambling Man (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've just been reviewing what I have long known about the very clear areas of editing interest of the two of them, and it appears still correct to say that TRM largely edits in the areas of sports, sports figures and lists, while Johnbod edits arts and medical areas. There is no reason for TRM to be showing up in Johnbod's areas of interest when TRM focuses on sports. The information I put together in my sandbox for a separate matter related to all medical articles is a year old, but still relevant to show Johnbod's clear editing area, and TRM doesn't belong there. Stop the stalking and baiting.
Aside: those who are weighing in about citation styles without having written top content may appreciate the conclusion section in my sandbox summary about where medical editors stood on the topic we were discussing them.
I would also say that, given that TRM's generalization above about citation style is so reminiscent of the same faulty logic and entrenched attitude applied during the infobox wars, a general restriction might be placed on TRM about whether he should ever alter any article citations. I am not familiar with the exact wording, but I know some editors who couldn't help themselves when it came to infoboxes needed to have that help imposed upon them with specific wording.
My suggestion then is two-fold: restriction on TRM relating to Johnbod's editing area and infobox wars style restriction on TRM changing citation style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- You need to retract the false accusation of stalking, it's been proven that I do not stalk Johnbod. To make such an assertion is a personal attack. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Fair point. In your case "harass" is more apt than "stalk". Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Not at all. As noted already, Johnbod's article is just one of 15,000+ that I've edited before it went to the main page. No-one is being harassed here, except for me. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- "except for me". Boo hoo. You have a significant blind spot as to the effects of you behavior. Ceoil (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Likewise. Very unpleasant indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- "except for me". Boo hoo. You have a significant blind spot as to the effects of you behavior. Ceoil (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Not at all. As noted already, Johnbod's article is just one of 15,000+ that I've edited before it went to the main page. No-one is being harassed here, except for me. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Fair point. In your case "harass" is more apt than "stalk". Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- You need to retract the false accusation of stalking, it's been proven that I do not stalk Johnbod. To make such an assertion is a personal attack. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia: You are aware that another of TRM’s editing interests is reviewing content that is about to be linked to the Main Page? TRM didn’t follow Johnbod to this article; it came up as part of his review of the DYK noms at WP:ERRORS2. Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- So I need to be more clear on how exactly to apply a restriction. Given the clear long-standing problems with TRM's editing behaviors, and how entrenched his views are, akin to the Infobox wars, broaden the restriction already in place for TRM. He should not be changing anyone else's work for DYK, ITN, GA, FAC, FAR or anything anywhere. His stances are too entrenched, and he seems unable to help himself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I checked and one of my interactions with TRM was an article I wrote and someone put in the DYK queue, and that is why he enforced the compulsory display of the reflist (rightly or wrongly, but it's bloody wrong). This is one of the reasons I avoid promoting articles about something more broadly interesting, flora and fauna, toward the front page, or other venues where trivial options are promoted from 'can be done' to 'must be done' or I'm going to be dragged here (AN/I I don't mind, I kinda like this page). Even a courteous "nice content, that must have taken a while" before telling me that an option is compulsory, and the impoliteness of those enforcing preferences is proportional to the relative importance of the same. This is especially true if all you do here is manufacture 'consensus' for some gee-whiz bit of superfluous code, and there is no time for politeness when life on the planet depends on it (I feel the same way, about different things). cygnis insignis 18:13, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Infoxbox war? Glad I missed that one, what were the restrictions and can they be linked? cygnis insignis 16:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am not certain where to find wording for individual restrictions, but you can search the ArbCom archives for the never-ending Infobox wars, sanctions, requests for enforcement and so on. You are likely to find that some of the very same editors who support TRM in this discussion had similar views during the Infobox wars, which is basically a division along the lines of top content contributors versus more technical editors. If I knew how to word this restriction, I would have proposed it, but I am happily a content contributor, and do not know how to word these things. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where to begin with how incorrect your assumptions and assertions are, but suffice to say, all of my edits to every page I edit every single day is to improve the experience of our readers. It's really sad that you think otherwise, and really depressing that you think we have "topics" that we know about and can edit on. This is the beginnings of a misguided "experts only" schism that might as well send Wikipedia to the dogs. I didn't change the facts, I improved the citations. For the love of God, that's all I did. You're talking like I vandalised every art page on the encyclopedia. Perspective would be appreciated, as would my ongoing efforts to ensure the main page of Wikipedia features well-produced articles. And if you're making some kind of allusion that I don't contribute content, I'd like you to retract that. The statistics speak for themselves. Unbelievable fake news. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am not certain where to find wording for individual restrictions, but you can search the ArbCom archives for the never-ending Infobox wars, sanctions, requests for enforcement and so on. You are likely to find that some of the very same editors who support TRM in this discussion had similar views during the Infobox wars, which is basically a division along the lines of top content contributors versus more technical editors. If I knew how to word this restriction, I would have proposed it, but I am happily a content contributor, and do not know how to word these things. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- probable support I expect I will support the formulation if it corresponds with the proposal above. cygnis insignis 16:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Infobox Wars? Sounds like a title for a Charles Stross story. DlohCierekim(talk) 16:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- They were similar to this-- protracted and surreal edit warring over something on the one hand trivial, but on the other hand, of great significance to content creators, who know their sources and their topics well, who take pride in their work, and who dislike having nuanced and marginally correct to blatantly incorrect information forced into an infobox format. This is the same deal. When you have spent months developing an article, it is exceedingly disruptive and time-consuming for someone to come along and alter citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, this is something I should know when expressing a similar view, that would seem to be perpetuating a discussion people were avoiding. They were always a bad idea, not encyclopedic, and create an invitation for contentious contributions by those passing by [for whatever reason]; I know that discussion hasn't stopped the numerous edit wars where they appear. cygnis insignis 17:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- They were similar to this-- protracted and surreal edit warring over something on the one hand trivial, but on the other hand, of great significance to content creators, who know their sources and their topics well, who take pride in their work, and who dislike having nuanced and marginally correct to blatantly incorrect information forced into an infobox format. This is the same deal. When you have spent months developing an article, it is exceedingly disruptive and time-consuming for someone to come along and alter citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Infobox Wars? Sounds like a title for a Charles Stross story. DlohCierekim(talk) 16:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I won't comment on this for now, but TRM's current personal Arbcom DYK-related editing restrictions can be found here. As of an amendment in December, he is apparently now not restricted from insulting and belittling other editors! Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I know it's out of fashion, but I hold myself to 1RR for the most part. It might be better to, instead of reverting, discuss the matter and offer to help with any perceived problems, and to simply stop trying to force a change or revert someone else is not happy with. A polite note and sincere offer of help, I might add. Oh, great, we're back to that pesky cracked pillar again. DlohCierekim (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I don’t follow any user anywhere. In case you lot didn’t realise, I edit and improve all articles in the DYK queues and OTD stack every day. I don’t care whose articles they are. What I do is clearly within the sanction as defined by Arbcom. I improved the two articles in question, and there’s not one single one of you who could claim otherwise. Thanks to Ritchie for the inevitable. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- oh and just for interest, I’ve done this to about 15000 articles in the past couple of years, and how many problems like this? ONE. When I’m improving articles, yet another user can call me a troll, a vandal, infringe 3RR yet I’m the one looking down the barrel, it’s clear this is a broken system. You people are unreal. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
And for the final time, I didn’t just alter citations, I added value to them, gave them proper titles, accessdates etc. Please stop asserting all I do is change citation styles. That’s complete nonsense. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out many times, you also removed important information. But of course you still refuse to recognise this, just as you do for other articles. Because your "improvements" are never, ever, wrong, and anybody who so much as hints otherwise knows what treatment to expect. Johnbod (talk) 17:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose seems a little too much in a number of ways. It would though be better for TRM to suggest and offer to help rather than just revert warring. If one's offer of assistance is spurned, there are still millions of articles in need. DlohCierekim(talk) 17:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- What might be missed here is that, when you are trying to develop new content (as is usually the case at the DYK level), and someone comes along with a non-policy-based personal preference and attempts to force that into the article as you are working, it stops work towards developing the article. To continue adding content, when you have to go back and deal with the citations, is one of the most exasperating things. This is what infobox warriors did, and now we see it with citation style. Those who cannot resist insisting on their personal preferences should not be in positions where they are reviewing the work of others. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- hypothetically if TRM did something that was banned by the unanimous decision of arbitrators, would you be converting to support? cygnis insignis 18:29, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support at very least and clearly an interaction ban is needed given TRM is patently targeting JB, per evidence above, some of which is ongoing. There is a larger issue which the community has to face wrt TRM, as this solution is a short term band aid. Yes I know, DYK is broken and all, but his behavior is increasingly making the whole main page less attractive and something of a poisoned well; Fram and Nikki do the same job with considerably more tact and grace. I know we have been over this many times before, and its is a car rash, but my opinion, considering the TRMs utility over his grossly off putting behavior: Indef block. Ceoil (talk) 17:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as effectively a content dispute for which WP:DR /3O was designed for. If a pattern had been established that TRM regularly and consistently stalked JB's contributions to extent constituting harassment, then that would be very much the kind of behaviour this board was intended for. But, since it has been established that he came across it as a recently promoted DYK hook, and the interaction analyser shows no such pattern of stalking—indeed, in many cases JB posts after TRM, but I wouldn't call that stalking either!—there's clearly no case to answer. Frankly, if TRM agrees to lessen the belligerency, JB to think before rollbacking, and everyone readies themselves to go the talk page as a first recourse rather than a last, we could probably all go and do something more productive. ——SerialNumber54129 18:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The whole reason I started this thread in the first place is that I refused to take any admin action against Johnbod and TRM would not take "no" for an answer. So at least an interaction ban would reduce the opportunity for TRM to sound like a broken record. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 18:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, to be clear, you took no action whatsoever, despite the personal attacks and 3RR violation. Claiming "stale" in a case with such violations involving someone you know personally is not appropriate. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Weak oppose. I can see Ritchie's point of view, but I think this doesn't get at the meat of the matter: in the last month alone TRM has edit-warred with two other editors over citation formatting: see this, and this nonsense (which took me a few seconds to find by searching his contributions for "mw-undo"; there's probably others further back). I think we should be warning TRM to take his concerns to the talk page a little earlier. If that seems too lenient to some folks, a 1RR restriction would still make more sense than an IBAN, I think, though I'm not convinced yet that it's necessary. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Your first example wasn't related to citations at all, it was a general issue with the misuse of semi-autonated tools to make generic edits against consensus. The second example relates to a user who insisted on a single column format despite consensus that allowing references to span across the page is just fine. It's not clear what the problem here is in either case. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem, in both cases, is that you were reverting rather than discussing, which is exactly what happened here with Johnbod. You seem to believe that being correct makes it unnecessary for you to initiate a discussion, which simply isn't true. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- And yet, even after I'd managed to initiate discussion, the reverting continued, and worse, was sanctioned and allowed to stand. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem, in both cases, is that you were reverting rather than discussing, which is exactly what happened here with Johnbod. You seem to believe that being correct makes it unnecessary for you to initiate a discussion, which simply isn't true. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Your first example wasn't related to citations at all, it was a general issue with the misuse of semi-autonated tools to make generic edits against consensus. The second example relates to a user who insisted on a single column format despite consensus that allowing references to span across the page is just fine. It's not clear what the problem here is in either case. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support the general idea. In order to understand what is happening at Saint Sebastian Tended by Saint Irene, a good idea is to look at [this] and [that]. One editor has done quite all the editorial work. And then comes someone else with a series of 23 cosmetic edits in two days.
(1) One source says Marseilles. The article says Marseilles. But TRM says Marseille. He knows better, and when reverted and directed to ENGVAR, he reiterates again and again, since he knows better.
(2) Then comes {{Cite web url=https://www.mfa.org/collections/object/saint-sebastian-tended-by-saint-irene-and-her-maid-34145 title=Saint Sebastian Tended by Saint Irene and Her Maid date=14 July 2018 publisher=[[Museum of Fine Arts, Boston]] accessdate = 21 February 2019}}. When reverted and directed to CITEVAR, TRM reiterates again and again, because he knows better. When speaking of Boston's Museum of Fine Art, expanding mfa into Museum of Fine Art is a vital information, isn't it ? And adding this 14 Juillet 2018 from nowhere, another vital information ?
(3) Then we have {{Use dmy dates date=February 2019}}. When reverted TRM reiterates again and again, because he knows better, with "plat de résistance" as edit summary.
And now comes the worst. After such a flooding, User:The Rambling Man tries to burden User:Johnbod with the task of sorting all this mess and selecting what could, marginally, be useful. This is not the way to proceed. The burden is on TRM to sort what he is doing, with honest edit summaries. Using repetitively further improvement as edit summary is only gaming the system. Pldx1 (talk) 18:48, 23 February 2019 (UTC)- Yeah, honest edit summaries like "various" on the 4RR. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - WP:CITEVAR? From the very end of the guideline:
If all or most of the citations in an article consist of bare URLs, or otherwise fail to provide needed bibliographic data – such as the name of the source, the title of the article or web page consulted, the author (if known), the publication date (if known), and the page numbers (where relevant) – then that would not count as a "consistent citation style" and can be changed freely to insert such data
. What was TRM was doing to those citations? Um... adding a title, a website, a publisher, an access date, and occasionally a publication date. And what about prior to that? Hmm... They had nothing other than a url and a name flanked by ref tags. These changes are explicitly excluded from CITEVAR becauseThe data provided should be sufficient to uniquely identify the source, allow readers to find it, and allow readers to initially evaluate it without retrieving it
. Which is not possible to do when all I have to go on is "LACMA page", whatever that means, but easy enough to do when I'm told that it's the "Los Angeles County Museum of Art". How about "Golden Legend text, in the Caxton translation"? Well sounds fancy, but can't really tell its providence and who is "Caxton"? "Medieval Sourcebook: The Golden Legend: Volume II". Fordham University." Ah, yes I see, it's a primary source that has been republished by a presumably reputable institution. Unfortunately "Caxton" is lost here, and I assume Caxton is the translator's name (indeed I know it is: William Caxton). That should be re-added. The same goes for some of the other citations. "Seattle Art Museum" for example, is barely enough for me to evaluate it. In other words, nothing needs to be done here. Somepoorincomplete citations turned into adequate citations is not a problem. The aggression from Johnbod in retaliation for these improvements, for me, is a problem. No idea on what actions to take with regard to that though. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Mr Dude, though it has been pointed out several times already, you are overlooking that all or most of the relevant information is contained in the text being referenced. This is like the people who complain when something is just referenced to ""Foo: 1", OED". The article had a link to LACMA, though there should really have been another where the ref was. Johnbod (talk) 04:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Johnbod - I am familiar with those sorts of citations, and they appear in most of the works that I refer to when writing articles in the ancient Egypt topic area. For example, I know what SAK and BIFAO are on sight, but they are illegible to the average reader. This is also why books have a bibliography which you can search to find the cited source... well unless they do something like put a footnote that reads "BIFAO, 1977" and you're left wondering "which article from BIFAO 1977? why are you less verifiable than Wikipedia!?" TRM's changes might be unnecessary to you, but they are more accessible to the reader and, to my reading of the guideline, are within the bounds of the explicit exception written into CITEVAR. Oh, btw, if you're still willing to edit Saint Sebastian Tended by Saint Irene, citation 7 (Slive p. 22) isn't following your other book format citations. I don't know if that was intentional, or if someone else added it in later. I'd rather not set-off a new dispute, so won't touch it myself. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Mr Dude, though it has been pointed out several times already, you are overlooking that all or most of the relevant information is contained in the text being referenced. This is like the people who complain when something is just referenced to ""Foo: 1", OED". The article had a link to LACMA, though there should really have been another where the ref was. Johnbod (talk) 04:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose in accord with Mr rnddude above, who explains in greater detail what I was arguing above. A citation that does not provide the basic information required by WP:CITE is not subject to CITEVAR and improving that cite should not be subject to sanction. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I've been following this for a while and it's admittedly difficult to get a bearing on the situation given the drastically different versions of events that have been presented. One thing that is clear to me is that both Johnbod and TRM have needlessly escalated this situation. This should have been handled on the talk page in a calm, cool, and collected manner, but that became all but impossible once Johnbod began insulting TRM via edit summary. And TRM is refusing to drop the stick, as he often does when another editor is mean to him. As for the actual content dispute, I'm admittedly not a star content creator like some of the above editors, so I won't claim expertise on citation formatting, but I really don't see how TRM's citation format changes were unhelpful. I certainly don't see how they warrant a topic ban. It is also unfortunate that this proposal alleges that TRM was following Johnbod around when it is fairly common knowledge that TRM frequently seeks to improve content that is about to hit the main page, as was the case here. This proposal is a severe overreach based on a very one-sided interpretation of this editing dispute. Lepricavark (talk) 04:38, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanction. This has escalated quite unnecessarily. As has already been pointed out it is not s violation of CITEVAR if additional information is being added, and I’m more concerned about the ownership being displayed by Johnbod. Both were wrong to edit war but at least they are now using the talk page. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:54, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment so now we have a concept of "Johnbod articles" being proposed? Really? If anyone can prove that the edits I made weren't in the best interests of our readers and the longevity of the verifiability of our articles, I'm all ears. As I noted, I've edited at least 15,000 articles over the past two years (whose "owners" I know not, nor do I know how find, nor do I care) and this is the one that's blown up through me improving citations and making multiple other improvements for our readers. I've never followed Johnbod, in fact he's the one who gravedanced when I took some time out. He's the one who came to my personal errors record and started complaining. Not the other way around. So get the facts straight. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support I am surprised how many time TRM gets away with this type of stuff. They would have been indefinitely blocked long before, hadn't they been "close friends" with admins. Repetitive disruptive editing is disruptive editing nonetheless, regardless of how much of an "asset" they are and arejust "keep making mistakes" and "probably learn", even though being highly experienced and already been reported several times. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 15:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @ImmortalWizard: A welcome opportunity for: WP:THIS or WP:THAT or WP:THEOTHER. Any chance you could provide a diff to back every single one of those claims? ——SerialNumber54129 16:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Serial Number 54129 Look at his track record here. I am not quoting directly, those were just in general. TRM has failed multiple times to keep promises of not being disruptive and being civil. If it were any other editor, they would have indefinitely blocked long before. Wonder why TRM isn't blocked permanently considering his bans are regular? We need to be vocal about this. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:09, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @ImmortalWizard: A welcome opportunity for: WP:THIS or WP:THAT or WP:THEOTHER. Any chance you could provide a diff to back every single one of those claims? ——SerialNumber54129 16:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as per SN, This has escalated unnecessarily and is now becoming a pointless timesink. –Davey2010Talk 17:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – needless escalation for the reasons already well-stated by multiple editors above. Leviv ich 19:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose the core premise of this proposal is wrong. TRM is not followimg anyone around they are working on front page errors, which they are well known for. Legacypac (talk) 19:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose editor was simply following what we recommend at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Generally considered helpful
improving existing citations by adding missing information, such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations: an improvement because it aids verifiability, and fights linkrot;
.--Moxy (talk) 07:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)- Thank you. To reiterate, I am (a) not stalking anyone (b) not harassing anyone (who came to gravedance?) (c) not violating CITEVAR (even though it's nothing more than a suggestion in any case) (d) not prepared to accept continued personal attacks (e) not prepared to accept 3RR violations (e) not satisfied that an involved admin closed the report (f) not satisfied that the closing admin didn't even offer a suggestion to Johnbod to avoid violating 3RR, NPA, rollback abuse (g) disappointed but not surprised that so many people have jumped on this bandwagon of "all TRM does is change citation styles" - bollocks, I have improved every article I touch for the benefit of our readers. There are many personal attacks even here on this very page levelled at me, none of which have any substance, but of course no-one will do anything about any of it. Applause. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal-- use of rollback by Johnbod
Come on, folks, if you want an IBAN so bad propose it separately, else (and this is what I would recommend) just drop it already. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Johnbod is warned to confine his use of rollback to cases covered by WP:ROLLBACKUSE. Yes, I know I participated in this discussion, but the outcome is quite obvious, so let's move on. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:15, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I hope this wasn't addressed earlier. Both Johnbod and TheRamblingMan are valued contributors who are immiscible. I would ask Johnbod to reserve rollback for reverting vandals and to refrain from using it in a conflict with other immiscible contributors. Instead, it would be best to stop and fully address the other editors concerns and if needed, use the dispute resolution process. DlohCierekim (talk) 17:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Certainly, I normally do this; in fact I don't use rollback all that often. I've commented above on my regrettable use of it here. Johnbod (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think this quite beside the point of the overall discussion at this stage. I mean - what was the root cause? Sandy's proposal is more on target. ps Dloh, its "Johnbod", rather than "Johblod". Ceoil (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Given his acknowledgement above, I suggest a warning to Johnbod, along the lines of "if you ever do that again ... ", will suffice. On the other hand, TRM's behaviors are long-term, entrenched, have been addressed in the past by ArbCom, and need to be dealt with. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- I meant to post something like this following my previous conversations with SlimVirgin and Ceoil. Johnbod has acknowledged his error. I don't think we need to do more than warn him not to use rollback for things not explicitly covered by WP:ROLLBACKUSE. Indeed such a warning doesn't really require lengthy discussion, because nobody (least of all Johnbod himself) has really argued that the rollback use was justified. If someone thinks a stronger sanction is necessary, they're welcome to propose it, but I for one am no longer willing to yank Johnbod's rollback access. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW, I agree with that, Vanamonde. ——SerialNumber54129 18:56, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- We should all attempt to be more miscible, if that needs to said I felt it did, and now have used that word at least once in a sentence. I was somewhat saddened that my spell-checker knows a word that I did not, but cheered to have learned a term from medieval alchemy. cygnis insignis 19:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ceoil: Since you wish to continue your feud with me—what happened to avoiding me, I wonder—then I suggest you take your snide elsewhere, particularly as Vanamonde93 has already closed this discussion. Although I'm glad to see your language has improved. As to why I made the above remark: since my previous post focussed solely on JB's use of Rollback, I considered it only proper to point out that my position was neither unequivocal nor unchangeable. It's quite well known. Happy editing! ——SerialNumber54129 20:18, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Serial, what you dont seem to realise is that (1) nobody actually cares what you think, and (2) you called me a troll yesterday, so AGF?? My patience for want to be admins is low these days. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hey, Ceoil (3) at some point you'll realise that nobody cares what we think, whatever you think, and (4) you suggested I was insane yesterday, so AGF?? Since you're unable to keep away from me, how able a WP:Iban? ——SerialNumber54129 00:41, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: quiet word in the ear
Now this should have happened when the clear 3RR violation occurred. The admin closing the EW noticeboard should have left a message with both me and Johnbod saying that we could do better, and that Johnbod should not have resorted to violation of 3RR and personal attacks (as far as I know, calling people "vandal" and "troll" when it's apparent that they are doing their best to improve articles is a personal attack). Instead, the closing admin (who knows Johnbod personally) closed the situation as "stale" (after the fourth reversion) and did nothing more, not even a quiet word in the ear to suggest that calling someone a troll or a vandal was inappropriate. While that's "an approach", it's hardly satisfactory. However, if we could just move on with the "guys, let's just agree to disagree but please don't overstep fundamental pillars of Wikipedia" approach, such as avoiding personal attacks, then I imagine things would have been brought to a close much sooner. I accept that per BRD (not policy) I should have discussed this after the first revert, but at least I tried before the fourth revert. I still find it hard to understand why improving references for our readers has resulted in this shitstorm. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I have to agree with The Rambling Man. Closing admin should have resolved much better. That being said, the issue shouldn't be ignored here and a warning should be given to both of them at the very least, let alone a topic ban of maybe referencing. (Non-administrator comment) THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 13:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with that the closing admin didn't actually close anything; they merely moved the problem elsewhere and in doing so made it far worse. A "topic ban of maybe referencing" isn't possible (or desirable) though—WP:V (which is policy) demands some kind of referencing, and so such a TB would effectively be a ban on article creation! Not exactly, in sure we'd all agree, the perfect outcome for WP:TEACE——SerialNumber54129 13:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed. My use of reference ban was unfortunate. But any other specific topic ban will work. Also, both of their past reports should also be taken into account. I think both of them should feel the consequences by now. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 13:32, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I used "vandal" at all. As various people have pointed out many times above, it is entirely TRM who insisted on pursuing it. Reading the above will probably give newcomers an idea of how far attempting to discuss anything contentious with TRM gets anybody. Personally, I'd be happy to let TRM enjoy the rest of his holiday in the homeland of WP:BOOMERANG, though I expect issues like this will continue to recur between him & other editors. Johnbod (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Of course you didn't. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. It's not my homeland. I strongly suspect the issues raised above about your ownership of "your" articles, backed up by many editors, will continue to be a problem. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:43, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Both of you continuing to still arguing and attacking each other here is itself disruptive. Please calm down. THE NEWImmortalWizard(chat) 13:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think we're both calm, and don't need you to tell us to calm down, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Both of you continuing to still arguing and attacking each other here is itself disruptive. Please calm down. THE NEWImmortalWizard(chat) 13:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether a trout for TRM and Johnbod was the right closure at AN3 this seems clearly to be the right closure of this thread here at ANI. Best wishes, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
General citation query
So we have "Refill (2)" on our toolbox now, and it does things like this. Is this prohibited by WP:CITEVAR? If so, should the tool come with a grave warning that trips to ANI and proposals for topic bans etc are inevitable? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- To quote CITEVAR:--
If all or most of the citations in an article consist of bare URLs, or otherwise fail to provide needed bibliographic data.......then that would not count as a "consistent citation style" and can be changed freely to insert such data
. ∯WBGconverse 14:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)- I'm not sure that answered the question about a tool which does what I demonstrated. The tool did exactly the same thing which I did to "Johnbod's articles", only not quite as well. I assume given this furore, we need to now remove the tool from the "tools" section because it does exactly what I did: improved the content, made the content consistent in appearance, and gave the readers more bibliographic data. Since there seems to be some support for removing all of the information I added (manually), should we therefore remove the tool? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man and Johnbod I neither support nor oppose using the tool or editing manually. However, it could have been easily solved had there been proper discussion with consensus and more third party opinions as dispute solutions, rather then reverting back and forth and exchanging comments. It is wrong to blame and say that Refill (2) "does things", since it still is dependent on the user using it. In most cases, the default format should be decided by the original author, if they are heavily active. If others have issues, the most fundamental procedure is to reach for consensus with civility and proper arguments. If it doesn't go well, there outside editors would be asked to get involved and apply formal closure. I hope this helps both of you. I am also assuming you were not familiar with this? (Non-administrator comment) THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 15:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- My reply was intended to reply
Is this (edit) prohibited by WP:CITEVAR?
- As to the general tool; I guess that it ought to come with a warning that the users must read CITEVAR i.e. be careful that they are not just replacing citation-styles; which (at a glance) may look like adding more but actually redundant citation-info. At the same time, to fight linkrot, bare URLs are actively discouraged and moreover, bare URLs (with no accompanying data) are never a part of any citation style. So, I've not much clue about the above folks who claims that you violated CITEVAR. ∯WBGconverse 15:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that answered the question about a tool which does what I demonstrated. The tool did exactly the same thing which I did to "Johnbod's articles", only not quite as well. I assume given this furore, we need to now remove the tool from the "tools" section because it does exactly what I did: improved the content, made the content consistent in appearance, and gave the readers more bibliographic data. Since there seems to be some support for removing all of the information I added (manually), should we therefore remove the tool? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I did open a discussion at CITEVAR, and it does appear that what TRM was doing, changing the simple "url + page name" to ones with complete biographical information is allowed under CITEVAR. --Masem (t) 17:18, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, that’s interesting! Thank you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- But it isn't correct. WP:CITEVAR: "To be avoided ... adding citation templates to an article that already uses a consistent system without templates". If there was information missing, you could have added it manually, or gone to talk and proposed the changes there. The whole point of CITEVAR is to avoid this kind of dispute. SarahSV(talk) 22:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think, by now, it's pretty obvious to all that CITEVAR (not even a policy, incidentally) means different things to different editors, and as such, any claims that CITEVAR has been categorically violated are false. That I improved these references in a consistent way and to the benefit of our readers is all that's really important. And you failed to address the point of this section, namely that our toolkit provides scripts which do exactly what I did. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- But it isn't correct. WP:CITEVAR: "To be avoided ... adding citation templates to an article that already uses a consistent system without templates". If there was information missing, you could have added it manually, or gone to talk and proposed the changes there. The whole point of CITEVAR is to avoid this kind of dispute. SarahSV(talk) 22:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's not my interpretation of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Are "external link" -formatted citations valid citations?; I think most people are saying it should be discussed on the talk page, as the primary purpose of the guidance is to stop edit warring. isaacl (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, that’s interesting! Thank you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- After the first few edits by the original editor, Storye book (talk·contribs), there is no consistent citation style that I can discern. Thus, changing to a consistent style is allowed, although, since the article is new and the original editor is likely to still be active, it would have been better to discuss it on the talk page and ping the original editor. But the fact that the edit could have been within the guideline indicates the tool serves a legitimate purpose, and should continue to be mentioned in the guideline. Virtually all useful tools can be misused (as demonstrated by the guy who put air in my tires when I last went in for an oil change). Jc3s5h (talk) 22:28, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, CITEVAR specifically states that citations that "fail to provide needed bibliographic data" do "not count as a 'consistent citation style' and can be changed freely to insert such data." Citations such as "LACMA page" and "Image" do not constitute a citation style. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- How would you judge that in relation to Frog Service? Repeated duplicate, and unlinked, citations of no more than 'GT', 'BM' etc.? These could easily be much clearer, as per our usual standard for most articles, but apparently this article is already beyond reproach and it's a blocking offence to edit any such. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- btw, "BM" is a link to a page titled "Plate" in the BM's usual down-to-earth style, as the ref says. As a special treat, Andy, now I've finished writing the article, if you (or anyone else) want to do named refs to combine all the single BMs & GTs I won't object. But please use sensible names for the refs & leave bundled ones alone. Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, when I applied named references, I was reverted ("per DENY" according to Ceoil). How odd. Perhaps only certain editors are allowed to use named references. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:12, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- "As a special treat" – and there we have the crux of the problem here. No Johnbod, it is not "a special treat" for other editors to be allowed to edit your articles. This is a collegial project, remember WP:5P3? "no editor owns an article and any contributions can and will be mercilessly edited"?
- Our default position is that TRM is allowed to edit 'your articles'. Even if you hate what they're doing with them. It's your burden to make some case as to why they shouldn't, or why particular changes ought to be reverted. We have a few regular issues where we've agreed a default answer (MOS:DATE, WP:MOS) and we don't vary from that without that then being the default position and the editor looking to change from it being the one who makes the case for it. In other cases (WP:ENGVAR, WP:CITEVAR) we accept both options as equally valid and we avoid change to them, just because we want to avoid circular or reciprocating cycles of changes. But what we do not do is to start WP:OWNing articles. You, even if you're the creator and sole author of an article do not get to act as gatekeeper to it. This is an absolute here. Yes, we have a lot of behaviours (documented or not) to avoid stepping on the toes of other editors, and even to avoid WP:RANDY. But still, you can't start claiming OWNership, even if you call it stewardship against an imagined barbarian horde.
- I'm sure you know this, but I do not believe that you accept it. I have seen many examples of you clearly refusing to. If the other editor is easily cowed, then they disappear, perhaps permanently. If they have a high profile, like TRM, it ends up here. But in both cases you are in the wrong. CITEVAR is a minor guideline (and like ENGVAR, it's behavioural rather than based on absolute benefits to librarianship or linguistics) but OWN is policy. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but both he and you have to respect the rules, especially (here) CITEVAR. Many editors still don't, and of course can often get away with this on neglected articles, building up a sense of entitlement. Then they get upset when challenged. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- CITEVAR is not "the rules" nor was any edit I made actually an infringement of such. It's been adequately demonstrated to you that improving your version of citations by adding masses of relevant data is a good thing for our readers. It's time to realise that the work being done is not for our own benefit, but for that of our readers and the future generations. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but both he and you have to respect the rules, especially (here) CITEVAR. Many editors still don't, and of course can often get away with this on neglected articles, building up a sense of entitlement. Then they get upset when challenged. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- btw, "BM" is a link to a page titled "Plate" in the BM's usual down-to-earth style, as the ref says. As a special treat, Andy, now I've finished writing the article, if you (or anyone else) want to do named refs to combine all the single BMs & GTs I won't object. But please use sensible names for the refs & leave bundled ones alone. Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Named references? (that is <ref name="bm">ref defined here</ref> <ref name="bm"/> Thre's also a valid use of "ibid" if you are 100% certain the citation order won't change. --Masem (t) 01:00, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, CITEVAR specifically states that citations that "fail to provide needed bibliographic data" do "not count as a 'consistent citation style' and can be changed freely to insert such data." Citations such as "LACMA page" and "Image" do not constitute a citation style. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- For what it is worth, here's my approach to CITEVAR, which I haven't re-read in a long time. It's goal of preventing revert wars between citation styles is desirable, but it can also be an impediment to improving the encyclopaedia. I have changed citation styles from a mix of templated and untemplated to all templated in the past, adding missing information, and feel justified in so doing. If an article has only non-templated citations but with significant information missing, I have added information in templated format. IF another editor then objects, I would respect CITEVAR and either encourage him / her to convert my citations to non-templated form or offer to do it myself. I would not find a simple revert of my additions acceptable if the additional information were not re-added. In the disputed case, I don't have a problem with TRM's additions or change of citation, but I do think not accepting Johnbod's right to non-templated styles as originating author was unwise per CITEVAR. I recognise that Johnbod's references were inadequate in places, such as when a simple url was linked to a description that was not the page's title and that did it clearly identify the source. This creates an arguable case under CITEVAR for retaining the templated forms, but at the cost of upsetting the editor who wrote the article over a matter that was trivial. Note, it is the form of the citation that I say is trivial, not its content. TRM and Johnbod failed to communicate as adults and find a reference form that was acceptable to Johnbod and which contained the relevant information added by TRM. Things degenerated from there, with unacceptable behaviour from Johnbod ("vandalism", ROLLBACK-misuse, etc) and stubborn refusal to compromise from TRM, made worse by the escalating conflict. We then end up with an ANI that was guaranteed to be hostile over a matter that should never have left the article talk page. TRM, you may not like CITEVAR, but I strongly advise you to respect it when your change of citation style prompts objections. That's what I would advise on the Abby Franquemont case – if someone objects, let them change back to untemplated refs or make the change yourself, and move on (so long as the extra information is retained). If no one objects, great. I have changed the citations on the article that started all this conflict to remove templates and tried to keep the resulting referencing style consistent. I hope Johnbod has noticed this and recognises it as a change made in the hope of ending the article part of the conflict, consistent with CITEVAR and the work he has put into the page. Compromise can be a great way to reduce conflict, and so long as it does not harm the information provided to our readers, need not cost anything but a little time. Johnbod, I'm glad that you recognised the problematic use of ROLLBACK. Perhaps you could both also offer some reflection on your words and actions and this thread can be ended? Ritchie333, perhaps you might comment on whether you still see starting this ANI as the best choice when TRM was clearly aggrieved and when there were behavioural questions still open? EdChem (talk) 07:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @EdChem: Yes, I certainly think the matter needed to come here. I just had a quick look at what's been going on, and the first thing I find is TRM getting close to edit warring with Atlantic306 on Hurricane (2018 film). So there's definitely a deeper problem here than what a simple AN3 report can handle. Also, since TRM is obviously upset with how I handled the report, it makes sense to come here even if it's just to discuss my admin conduct. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 11:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, lack of admin conduct I suppose. But frankly, if you honestly didn't foresee this Marne of a thread, then it's not your conduct so much as your judgement that's arguably called into question. ——SerialNumber54129 11:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was more concerned with TRM's removal of important referencing information, and I'll admit, especially annoyed by the change to Marseilles, which the edit summary "I presume this means Marseille" showed to be clearly ignorance-driven. The immediate context of all this has not been mentioned much - this all happened a few hours before the article went on the main page as a DYK. TRM always waits until the last minute before he hits a prospective main page article, although this one had been nominated for DYK over 2 months previously. This fuels a fake sense of La patrie en danger urgency, and means that those putting stuff on the main page have to watch carefully a number of different pages in the hours leading up to the main page change for upcoming "improvements" that often aren't, and which they won't be notified about. TRM wears his heart on his sleeve, and the psychology of all this is very well known to anyone who has kept any sort of eye on his edits - which before the topic ban was anyone follwing DYK talk at all. As is the way he reacts to any disagreement about his "improvements" (which I don't deny, often are). I never reverted all his changes this for example is my first reversion, only those creating problems. For the moment, with the article off the main page & several editors piling in, I've given up following changes to in detail. I'll come back in a few days & pick up the beer cans. Only one of these editors has wanted to changed the actual text, which is WP-typical these days. Johnbod (talk) 12:40, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- You could have replaced the few bytes of information that you deemed so important. What I added was considerably more and made the references usable for our readers and linkrot-proof to a degree. I was chased away from ERRORS and DYK, so I have nothing left to give other than a review 24 hours in advance of things going to the main page. I do that in good faith because I want our readers to believe in Wikipedia, to see it as a professional resource, to actually use it as an encyclopedia. Picking up crappy referencing, or easy-to-fix MOS violations is just part of what I do, I'm also trying to validate the hooks, the blurbs etc, so we don't get embarrassed. It's fascinating to me that OTD has had around the same number of issues over the past nine months as DYK, yet Howcheng is miraculously calm and considerate, and gives a fair crack at each report. On the other hand, once I dare touch one of "Johnbod's articles", the universe collapses, people accuse me of stalking, harassment, want an indef block etc. And on another article, Johnbod's friend Ceoil reverts me for editing to reuse citations, claiming "WP:DENY", yet Johnbod himself says that's just fine. This place is fucking nuts. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, please! Most of your edits to my DYK noms are fine, & I think I may have thanked you for them in the past. Your editing restrictions (obviously) don't affect DYK articles, which you could pick up in good time from the approved page, but don't. You are the one who pursued this strongly. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm the one who was on the receiving end of your multiple personal attacks and clear violation of 3RR and abuse of rollback. It's really got nothing at all to do with the article, rather your behaviour after I dared improve one of your articles. It's entirely down to me to decide as and when I "pick up" the reviews of the DYK hooks, and I do that once people have stopped tinkering with them, in the queue. This is usually at least 24 hours before they go to the main page. There's no problem with that at all. Especially given that in most cases I improve each article I find. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:50, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, please! Most of your edits to my DYK noms are fine, & I think I may have thanked you for them in the past. Your editing restrictions (obviously) don't affect DYK articles, which you could pick up in good time from the approved page, but don't. You are the one who pursued this strongly. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- You could have replaced the few bytes of information that you deemed so important. What I added was considerably more and made the references usable for our readers and linkrot-proof to a degree. I was chased away from ERRORS and DYK, so I have nothing left to give other than a review 24 hours in advance of things going to the main page. I do that in good faith because I want our readers to believe in Wikipedia, to see it as a professional resource, to actually use it as an encyclopedia. Picking up crappy referencing, or easy-to-fix MOS violations is just part of what I do, I'm also trying to validate the hooks, the blurbs etc, so we don't get embarrassed. It's fascinating to me that OTD has had around the same number of issues over the past nine months as DYK, yet Howcheng is miraculously calm and considerate, and gives a fair crack at each report. On the other hand, once I dare touch one of "Johnbod's articles", the universe collapses, people accuse me of stalking, harassment, want an indef block etc. And on another article, Johnbod's friend Ceoil reverts me for editing to reuse citations, claiming "WP:DENY", yet Johnbod himself says that's just fine. This place is fucking nuts. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @EdChem: Yes, I certainly think the matter needed to come here. I just had a quick look at what's been going on, and the first thing I find is TRM getting close to edit warring with Atlantic306 on Hurricane (2018 film). So there's definitely a deeper problem here than what a simple AN3 report can handle. Also, since TRM is obviously upset with how I handled the report, it makes sense to come here even if it's just to discuss my admin conduct. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 11:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Firstly, please note that any claim of "CITEVAR violation" is utterly incorrect, and under considerable debate. Ed, your post is great, but reading it twice (or three times) really seems to back up the idea of ownership of articles. And that's not what this project is about. I improved citations, I don't need to ask permission from anyone to do that, and to remove the improvements should be considered disruptive, not to add them. But to the point: Ritchie, you didn't do anything, and that was a serious failure of your responsibilities. Forget the 3RR, forget the CITEVAR (which is very much open to debate), forget even the overt abuse of rollback, but you allowed another user to use personal attacks against me a number of times. And whether that was part of the initial report or not is irrelevant. You failed in your duty. I don't know why you got engaged when you later said that you'd met Johnbod in person a few times, that's highly inappropriate, some might say biased, even if it just looks that way. Incidentally, your claim of "edit warring with Atlantic306" is utter bullshit. I stated clearly that I didn't need to add a "reactions" section to a draft article, and my edit was undone by Atlantic. I simply restored my edit and suggested that things should move on when it was abundantly clear that the article was of sufficient quality for the main page. To claim that as as some kind of "close to edit warring" is utterly disingenuous and needs to stop. It appears that my trust in you has absolutely and completely evaporated, and that's a real shame, because I thought you were one of the decent ones. I think you should continue to be an admin but for me, this is terminal. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:17, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I really don't want to fall out with you over this; as I said at the top of the thread you have been very helpful with GA reviews and WP:ERRORS2, by and large, does a lot of good work for the encyclopedia. I'm unsure as to what you exactly wanted me to do with Johnbod; perhaps a more trigger-happy admin would have blocked him and that would have been alright? It would have probably resulted in a heated discussion anyway. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 12:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've already told you, several times, that allowing Johnbod to call me a vandal, a troll, to violate 3RR after I (eventually) initiated discussion, to violate the use of rollback, did not equate to a "closed:stale" result. That's complete bullshit. I'm not asking for anyone to be blocked, but play the fucking game. Johnbod is now aware that CITEVAR was not violated in any sense, that I was improving the citation style for our readers, that abusive use of rollback is unacceptable. But your biased intransigence is too much, and I'm really really gutted about that. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I could sit here and pick apart the various points over what I did and why I disagree with them, but everyone else would be bored to tears over it, so may I suggest a) Can we just agree to disagree over this? b) Blind Faith needs a GA review. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:53, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- [ec] The Rambling Man, "but play the fucking game". He may not be not interested in your boyish game, is that also compulsory? Take OWNership of the 5 seconds you took to insert yourself into a page that someone else has invested their OWN time in creating and well know they do not OWN, that is more deeply insulting and wrong-headed than what you seek to suffer. cygnis insignis 12:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sure Ritchie, it's "boring". Good response. You did nothing, and it was tragically disappointing. Good luck, and goodbye. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- [88]
...if a bunch of us get together, disagree on stuff, make alternative suggestions, and then (and this is the important bit) constructively work out a compromise, we can do brilliant work. It certainly beats sulking round ANI
. How's that looking now? ——SerialNumber54129 13:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've already told you, several times, that allowing Johnbod to call me a vandal, a troll, to violate 3RR after I (eventually) initiated discussion, to violate the use of rollback, did not equate to a "closed:stale" result. That's complete bullshit. I'm not asking for anyone to be blocked, but play the fucking game. Johnbod is now aware that CITEVAR was not violated in any sense, that I was improving the citation style for our readers, that abusive use of rollback is unacceptable. But your biased intransigence is too much, and I'm really really gutted about that. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal:Two months block for The Rambling Man
This is going nowhere. "Justice" isn't dispensed like this. Drmies (talk) 17:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am sure most of the admins are familiar with the number of warnings and blocksagainst TRM. He has been reported at ArbCom several times. If it were a newcomer or less known editor, they would have been indefinitely blocked long before for this continuous disruptive editing over the years. He promises to change but still makes the same Wikipedia's fundamental mistakes. I propose a two month block at minimum. We should be open about this and have proper justice. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Strong oppose TRM was following what CITEVAR says (which is open to some debate but there's definitely a honest way to read it to support TRM's actions), and only the back and forth editing between him and Johnbod caused the problem. TRM is under a specific civility restriction, but nothing they have said in this discussion approaches that restriction). --Masem (t) 17:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, but, hey, how about: propose TBan from AN/I for User:ImmortalWizard, who seems to think that this is the OK Corral and that they are Wyatt Earp ("hav[ing] proper justice"?!). You do not go around just randomly propsing blocks for productive editors in the middle of a discussion which has has pretty clearly established faults on noth sides. Further, block logs are actually slightly more nuanced things than they seem to realise: a list of blocks and warnings on it's own means nothing without context, and IWiz was not, IIRC, involved in any of TRM's cases (indeed, their paths have almost never crossed before). In anycase, the specific claims I asked them to support with diffs, above, have not been; and I would also ask them how this proposal fits in with WP:NOTPUNITIVE? I suggest that IWiz—with 56 edits to WP:ANI in their career, and about half of them over the lastcouple of days—might want to slow down a little with the commentary and proposals, much as they clearly mean well. ——SerialNumber54129 17:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Strong oppose (edit conflict) - Don't be daft. How about we close this and allow both editors to discuss this on the talkpage accordingly ? .... Now that sounds like a much better proposal. –Davey2010Talk 17:28, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose blocking TRM. Support the Wizard staying off ANi where they are making a fool of themselves. Legacypac (talk) 17:32, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose this ludicrous proposal. TRM’s civility restriction and block log are irrelevant to this discussion which is essentially a content dispute. I agree that Immortal Wizard needs to take a break from ANI and go work on some articles - someone with so little experience telling two veteran content creators with over 400,000 edits between them to “calm down” is not helping anyone. Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: 3-month interaction ban Johnbod and The Rambling Man
Not going anywhere, appears to be pointless per SN54129. Black Kite (talk) 22:54, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
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Can somebody give any evidence that interaction between the two is likely to be productive in that time? As for discussing the current matter, I don't believe additional discussion between the two of them is necessary, as both have gone far beyond laying out their positions. pbp 20:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose not productive or warrented. Legacypac (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per LP; not sure what issue this is intended to address as they seem to interact infrequently. ——SerialNumber54129 21:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 21:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive IP user
(non-admin closure) There once was an IP from somewhere |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In spite of warnings, the IP user is continuously blanking (e.g. [89], [90], [91], [92], [93], [94]) or disrupting ([95], [96], [97], [98]) the sourced content. In fact, all of their edits are of the aforementioned nature. - NitinMlk (talk) 00:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- 'Tis true. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
(user:AHastings53 nee) User:Andrewnheckman reported by User:Mvcg66b3r
General disruptive editing; stating that KNHL had switched to NBC when it hasn't yet. I even fell for his lies. [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] Mvcg66b3r (talk) 15:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Mvcg66b3r: Whether or not User:Andrewnheckman is right about this edit, they've attempted to discuss this issue (at User talk:Csworldwide1) and you haven't bothered. Edit summaries are never an appropriate place to carry on a discussion because once there's a dispute, everyone is supposed to stop editing and head for a talk page. Why haven't you done that? And if you think this user is perpetrating "disruptive editing" (maybe) and telling "lies" (unlikely), why are you reporting them to this messageboard? Why aren't you at WP:AIV? 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:3D4A:D759:FBED:105D (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Andrewnheckman: Hey. Saw you seemed to be making edits based on what you saw on TV or whatever. All content must be cited from reliable sources that are unconnected with the subject and have a reputation for fact checking, and I've seen nothing like that, though I could be wrong. Please respond here or on your talk page before adding the challenged content again. DlohCierekim (talk) 16:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Mvcg66b3r: I'm glad you read my message because you just entered that discussion. You're casting the sort of nasty aspersions that should get you blocked for a bit but I still view this as a tiny bit of progress. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:3D4A:D759:FBED:105D (talk) 16:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:3D4A:D759:FBED:105D: AIV will either block or decline based on inadequate warnings. We can discuss the sourcing issue as long as we are all here. DlohCierekim(talk) 16:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please note. If anyone feels lost, TonyBallioni renamed the user "Andrewnheckman" to "AHastings53 (talk · contribs)" DlohCierekim (talk) 16:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:3D4A:D759:FBED:105D: AIV will either block or decline based on inadequate warnings. We can discuss the sourcing issue as long as we are all here. DlohCierekim(talk) 16:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I am new to wikipedia and am still trying to figure out how everything works, I was unaware you had to cite all your edits from a reliable source. Could someone please post instructions on how to cite an edit correctly so I dont have more issues when editing in the future. I did not mean harm when editing, I am trying to help but am not really sure how everything on wikipedia works yet. --AHastings53 (talk) 16:54, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- If anyone knows a citation tool or script, that would be helpful. DlohCierekim (talk) 16:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @AHastings53: See this guide I wrote for how to identify and cite sources, as well as a variety of other issues. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the guide, I will read through it and make sure in the future i make edits correcly cited and accurate.
Removal of Spoken articles files
I am not sure what to do ....we have an editor User:Walk Like an Egyptian removing Wikipedia:Spoken articles articles because they are older versions of the pages. I'm gravely concerned we're taking away an accessibility point for people with disabilities. Hearing an older spoken version of an article is not so egregious that they should be removed. I believe access to an older version is better than no access at all. What should be taking places in update not deletion. Was going to simply revert but see this has been done on a few pages and would like to get more input from the community. Should the work of hundreds of editor's be removed because they depict an older version of an article? Should these be reinstated? I agree many are outdated but they should be updated and the project expanded with more support..... just not sure how deletion helps our readers with disabilities in this case.--Moxy (talk) 01:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I did this because other editors have removed outdated recordings from various articles as seen here, here and here. None of these articles have gotten an updated recording since then. Plus, I think some of my removals like this one are justified. Not only did this recording have far less information, it also had quite a bit of unsourced information. If you really want to listen to an article that doesn't have a recording, you could copy and paste the information into a text-to-speech website. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 02:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Copy paste. ...... why would we go out of your way to make it hard for our readers? Text to speech software problems is one of the reasons the projects exists Pls review why we make these....Always think of those with disabilities when editing. Again old version of articles are better then no articles. Files should not orphaned they should be deleted if there's a problem with verifiability.--Moxy (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think the broader issues about what to do about outdated spoken versions of articles/content will need to be decided by community discussion, probably WP:VPP. I can see some argument on both sides but I doubt very much the solution endorsed by the community will be uniformly "keep them all" or "dump them all after X amount of time"; I suspect the solutions will need to be quite a bit more nuanced than that. In the meantime, until such an inquiry is undertaken, I'd like to request of Walk Like an Egyptian that they temporarily forestall their clean-up activities in this area--I take it as granted that your efforts are entirely good-faith, but Moxy is correct, this is a clear issue of WP:Accessibility, which policy was created specifically to conform our approach to the WMF's non-discrimination policy, which is a priority that cannot be obviated. Given the importance the WMF and this community put on accessibility, I think we have a duty to at least discuss this matter in a central community space before we begin a wholesale removal of content which vision impaired and other users may rely upon, even if there are arguments for removing at least some of it. If you don't want the burden of opening such a discussion, I can spearhead the process, provided you are willing to wait a couple of weeks. Snow let's rap 03:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Not all text-to-speech systems have problems. I was able to use a free and very intelligent text-to-speech system to make 35 recordings, but I'll just leave the list of spoken articles as is and let you handle this process. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 05:20, 21 February 2019 (UTC); edited 06:10, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
There's something ironic about putting "Spoken Wikipedia Benefits" in a raster image that's illegible for screen readers and hard to read for people who need high-contrast etc. text... —{{u Goldenshimmer}} (they/their)|😹|✝️|John 15:12|☮️|🍂|T/C 04:40, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Keep old recordings – they are better than nothing. Hopefully, the last update date is part of the recording. The user still has the option of using text-to-speech on the current article if they want. BTW, it would seem useful to make individual section recordings so as to facilitate updating just an edited section or two without having to re-dictate the whole article. Tools to manage the sections into auto-playlists, suggest stale section recordings needing update, etc. would all be good. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 08:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- It does seem useful to record a specific section instead of everything at once. I uploaded my first recording a couple months ago and the corresponding article has gone through drastic changes already. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 10:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Two things. 1) yeah keep the old recordings. Better than nothing. 2) My eyes! Dlohcierekim (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- It does seem useful to record a specific section instead of everything at once. I uploaded my first recording a couple months ago and the corresponding article has gone through drastic changes already. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 10:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I had not run across Wikipedia:Spoken articles before but it seems a valuable idea - perhaps the bigger problem is that there are 1,378 spoken articles in English. So its pretty clear this project isn't working. If it is valuable as a project it should get more support and attention, (for example - an idea off the top of my head would be making a spoken version a requirement to pass WP:FAC) - but if it is just going ot be a cul-de-sac of outdated (possibly COI or Copyright problem containing or otherwise violating our pillars) versions for a very few articles then a better solution should be developed to more seriously respect WP:Accessibility.AlasdairEdits (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just want to say that there's actually less than 1,378 spoken articles in English. A bunch of subcategories, audio files, and a user page were using Category:Spoken articles, so it messed up the spoken article count. I edited these pages, but if there are other pages that still use the category manually, they should also be removed. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 00:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- I seem to recall we nuked a spoken version of one article that was made by a fringe proponent after editing the article, which was subsequently restored to a less fringe version. Was it cold fusion? Guy (Help!) 17:46, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Personally, I question the value of spoken versions of articles if they are years out of date. It is a much more obvious option to use Microsoft Narrator or similar text to speech tools. The chances of having up to date spoken versions of millions of Wikipedia articles are practically zero.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:18, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- There's two issues that are raised there: 1) Not everyone who uses our platform has access to such software, and 2) even for those who do, text-to-speech software is drastically inferior in terms of pronunciation and elocution: with our articles covering a larger number of topics than any other reference work in the world, there are an astronomical number of terms (especially in STEM areas) which no renderer has dictionary references for and thus will attempt its "best guess" solution to, often with highly problematic results; the same is true of parsing the complex variances in our syntax. If you have not had need to make use of this software or have familiarity with the engineering behind it, you can be forgiven for assuming it's probably a generally practical option, but the reality is that in most instances the viable utility between a recorded natural speech version and machine effort is going to be night and day. Again, for those who even have the option, which is nowhere near all of our users.
- In any event, its a decision regarding formulating new policy, and this is definitely not the venue for that; the issue needs to be put before the wider community for any kind of legitimate consensus to result. I plan on broaching it at WP:VPP next week when I have more time, but if anyone is feeling industrious and wants to do so themselves, that would be great: drop me note on my talk page if you do, please! Snow let's rap 20:46, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
IP hopping vandal pasting rambling screed
Hop, hop, hop. How do we stop this sock? We won't tip off-kilter, just update the filter to augment the IP range block. Levivich 15:10, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Somebody using 107.77 IPs keeps jumping around to various articles to post paragraphs of obnoxious text, a rambling jumble of political issues. The person often puts four tildes in the edit summary. A list of involved IPs is below. Earlier today Edgar181 set a rangeblock on Special:Contributions/107.77.195.0/24, and last September Ivanvector blocked one of the IPs for year,[105] but the disruption continues. Can more be done to stop this character? It seems that a larger rangeblock would have collateral damage, but perhaps it's warranted. Or multiple rangeblocks tailored to fit the pattern. Binksternet (talk) 22:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Feb 24, US.
- Feb 24, Michigan.
- Feb 23, Kentucky.
- Feb 22, Michigan.
- Feb 22, Ohio.
- Feb 22, Michigan.
- Feb 21, Ohio.
- Feb 21, US.
- Feb 20, Missouri.
- Feb 19, Michigan.
- Feb 19, US.
- Feb 19, Pennsylvania.
- Feb 18, Pennsylvania.
- Feb 17, US.
- Feb 17, Tennessee.
- Feb 17, US.
- Sep 24, 2018, Maryland.
- Prolog already blocked 107.77.192.0/22. That might be enough. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:56, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- It won't be enough. The person has been doing the same thing for years. The week long rangeblock will help for a week, then it will resume. Perhaps an edit filter would help? -- Ed (Edgar181) 00:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- There's a filter here, but the vandal tends to learn quick. There's also a third active rangeblock on 166.216.159.0/24. Prolog (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The past few weeks he's been pretty consistent about the core delusions. Perhaps updating the filter? He does travel and we'll end up with his garbage in various articles. I periodically search using some of his more recent terms to find them, but if a filter gets even 50%, that's helpful. His home spot is Pennsylvania, but I've seen some posts from DC ip addresses. Ravensfire (talk) 01:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ravensfire, Filter updated. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- The past few weeks he's been pretty consistent about the core delusions. Perhaps updating the filter? He does travel and we'll end up with his garbage in various articles. I periodically search using some of his more recent terms to find them, but if a filter gets even 50%, that's helpful. His home spot is Pennsylvania, but I've seen some posts from DC ip addresses. Ravensfire (talk) 01:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- There's a filter here, but the vandal tends to learn quick. There's also a third active rangeblock on 166.216.159.0/24. Prolog (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- It won't be enough. The person has been doing the same thing for years. The week long rangeblock will help for a week, then it will resume. Perhaps an edit filter would help? -- Ed (Edgar181) 00:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Topic ban violation by Sotuman
Sotuman has been indefinitely blocked by JzG. Their topic ban appeal was unsuccessful, and they continued to violate the topic ban during this discussion. Airplaneman ✈ 22:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sotuman has violated his AE topic ban ([106]) at [107]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- There was no record of a ban in the log, to which Sotuman was referred by Bishonen, or at Bishonen, other than the notice on Sotuman's talk page, there was nothing. If there is a ban, the notice indicates that it applies to editing the flood geology article. It is not clear whether such a ban applies to the article's talk page, or to Sotuman's ability to respond to user comments on Sotuman's talk page. Sotuman (talk) 03:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- AS an uninvolved admin, I hereby advice you that the article content on your user talk is not acceptable and needs to be removed at once. You are skating on very thin ice. Dlohcierekim (talk) 03:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Why are you refering to yourself in the 3rd person. Dlohcierekim(talk) 03:33, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, please allow me a reasonable amount of time to do so...
- To answer your question, Sotuman is a name I made up a long time ago but I don't identify with it to the extent that I only use first person. It also helps me to be professional and objective in my responses. It means I don't take things too personally. Sotuman (talk) 03:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Here is dif of the notice on Sotuman 's talk page. However, such need to be appropriately logged. Dlohcierekim(talk) 03:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Dlohcierekim: Okay, I cleaned up the talk page, please advise whether further action is required. Sotuman (talk) 04:46, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Here is dif of the notice on Sotuman 's talk page. However, such need to be appropriately logged. Dlohcierekim(talk) 03:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I missed logging Sotuman's topic ban from Flood geology and related pages (now rectified). I apologize. But is this an excuse for him to violate a clearly described ban?[108] No. Please note that my ban notice contains the sentence "Please go to WP:TBAN and read the information there to see what a topic ban is". WP:TBAN is a brief, pedagogical explanation of what a topic ban is, which makes it perfectly clear that the ban applies to the article's talk page (if "Flood geology and related pages" didn't do it). Ignoring my information and then claiming that "It is not clear whether such a ban applies to the article's talk page, or to Sotuman's ability to respond to user comments on Sotuman's talk page" is a poor show. The ban applies to discussion of flood geology on all pages on Wikipedia, including talkpages, including Sotuman's own talkpage. Sotuman, go read WP:TBAN now, please. I for my part will excuse any topic violations so far, with only a warning; I usually do, since experience shows that many or even most users start off by violating them. Any further violations will be met with escalating blocks. Bishonen talk 05:09, 21 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Bishonen:, please respond to this comment relocated from your talk page:
- Recently you placed a notice of a topic ban on Sotuman's talk page, and directed Sotuman (this writer) to the log. However, upon searching, nothing was found about a ban applying to Sotuman there. Even so, Sotuman was careful to not speak on the topic, not only on the article itself, but also on the article talk page, even though the discussion was not entirely concluded. Sotuman did respond to some user input on his user talk page that had accumulated while he was away, including to your notice. In the response to you, Sotuman explained why it seemed to him that there was concensus for the type of improvement he had wanted to make to the article: adding an about template at the top so that people confused by similar terms would be able to quickly and easily go to those pages. But it seems that someone had blanked part of his talk page before he had finished making his responses, and when he finished the edit, the previously written content on the topic was restored from being blanked. This incidental restoration, which was part of a the larger edit, is now being used as grounds for accusing Sotuman of violating the apparently undocumented topic ban. Could you please answer and explain what is going on? Thanks so much. Sotuman (talk) 04:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- In brief, no, I can't. I just wrote up a full reply to the above, explaining what was going on, only to be met by an edit conflict when I went to post, because by then you had moved it to ANI. Please stop yanking people around. I'm not inclined to recreate my longish reply, since I have already answered above, but I will say this: don't you think it's a little inconsiderate to expect me to dig out your edits from the history of your talkpage, which you have now archived, in order to deal with them in detail? It's the middle of the night here (I'm not saying that's your fault). Maybe I'll have the time and energy to deal with the finer points buried in your page history tomorrow. BTW, do you realise just how irritating that referring to yourself in the third person is? There's nothing "professional and objective" about the impression it makes. Your way of writing may help you, even if I don't understand how, but it does a disservice to your reader. Please remember the aim of writing is communication. Bishonentalk 05:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC).
- It's okay, take your time, no worries. Sorry I don't have a lawyer, so I have to represent myself. Sorry for relocating the comment here. Maybe it was a mistake for me to put it on your talk page in the first place. I just want everything to be ordered and in the same place before the proceedings begin. Thanks so much for your patience, and I hope you have a good night. Sotuman (talk) 06:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- You are mistaken in thinking these are proceedings, or that a lawyer would be of use. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions (another link in my ban notice which you may or may not have consulted). Sanctions such as these are called discretionary because they are placed at an administrator's discretion. The idea of that is to avoid the full pomp of arbitration cases and/or ANI discussions every time an editor disrupts "our most contentious and strife-torn articles". For the basics, it's really enough to read the "nutshell" at the DS page. I acted within my discretion when placing the topic ban; you, in turn, have the right of appeal. Is that what you're doing now, here — appealing? I don't know if you read the last sentence in my ban notice, or read it with any interest); it says "If you wish to appeal against the ban, please check out the process described here, or ask on my talk page and I will explain how to do it." You didn't ask on my page, and you haven't used any of the recommended venues, which are WP:ARCA, WP:AE, and WP:AN. But you have written a good deal here, on ANI, in a thread started by someone else. If you'd like to consider this thread your appeal, that's fine, we needn't be bureaucratic about it. Or would you rather start over with one of the recommended boards, so that you can shape your appeal from the beginning? I'll leave that to you. Here at ANI, as at WP:AN, the community will review your appeal; at WP:AE, uninvolved admins will; and at WP:ARCA, the arbitrators will. (I don't recommend you start at ARCA; the arbs are glacially slow, for one thing.) Whichever one you choose, you have already made it pretty inconvenient for people to review, since you have removed everything you want to refer to from your page. I'd advise you to put it back, if you expect people to take the time for a review of your appeal. Remember everybody's a volunteer here. Please let me know if this thread or something else is your appeal, and whether or not you intend to take my advice about putting back the relevant stuff on your page, such as my ban notice and whatever else people will need to consult. (Only the relevant stuff, please, as that would be in everybody's best interest.) Then I'll reply to your questions. Bishonen talk 13:02, 21 February 2019 (UTC).
- It's okay, take your time, no worries. Sorry I don't have a lawyer, so I have to represent myself. Sorry for relocating the comment here. Maybe it was a mistake for me to put it on your talk page in the first place. I just want everything to be ordered and in the same place before the proceedings begin. Thanks so much for your patience, and I hope you have a good night. Sotuman (talk) 06:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- In brief, no, I can't. I just wrote up a full reply to the above, explaining what was going on, only to be met by an edit conflict when I went to post, because by then you had moved it to ANI. Please stop yanking people around. I'm not inclined to recreate my longish reply, since I have already answered above, but I will say this: don't you think it's a little inconsiderate to expect me to dig out your edits from the history of your talkpage, which you have now archived, in order to deal with them in detail? It's the middle of the night here (I'm not saying that's your fault). Maybe I'll have the time and energy to deal with the finer points buried in your page history tomorrow. BTW, do you realise just how irritating that referring to yourself in the third person is? There's nothing "professional and objective" about the impression it makes. Your way of writing may help you, even if I don't understand how, but it does a disservice to your reader. Please remember the aim of writing is communication. Bishonentalk 05:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Sotuman: Please refer to yourself as "I". The third person stuff makes it too hard to follow a conversation. Dlohcierekim (talk) 13:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Sotuman's appeal of his topic ban from Flood geology
Appeal request declined by unanimous consensus. Levivich 07:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) Post, post close result-- blocked indef for violating tban. DlohCierekim(talk) 21:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I, Sotuman, do hereby appeal the AE topic ban.
However, before restoring any material which I archived on what I took to be the advice of Dlohcierekim, I require a guarantee that this action will not be construed as a further violation of the topic ban. I also need to know all of what you consider relevant so that I may respond accordingly. Sincerely, Sotuman (talk) 19:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Bishonen, In the interest of expediency, perhaps it will be good to ask the following if the sum total of my interaction with them was to waste their time, Yes or No: @Mikenorton:, @PaleoNeonate:, @Dave souza:, @Theroadislong:, @Sjö:, @McSly:,@Gråbergs Gråa Sång:,@Hob Gadling:, @Johnuniq:, @Doug Weller:, @Tgeorgescu:.
- If the concensus is in the affirmative, then I will definitely consider withdrawing my appeal, and if in the negative, then please will you reconsider the topic ban? Sotuman (talk) 20:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Neither, nor. I generally want to give editors the chance to fully know what they could do in order to avoid blocks or bans. So, yes, if the editors are reasonable, they will mind the advice and avoid sanctions. I do not consider that a wasted effort, though the option to mind my advice is not in my own hands. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's irrelevant whether you wasted my time, and has no bearing on your topic ban. Theroadislong (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @ Sotuman, dealing with you has been a complete waste of time due to your repeated refusal to comply with policies and insistence on promoting your original research. You'd do best to learn to edit constructively in accordance with policy in a topic area where you don't have these preconceived opinions. . . dave souza, talk 20:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Dave souza: Ouch, that hurts. Is my pain to be classified as original research, or a preconceived opinion too? FYI, if you check the page history of the article, you will see that I did make several constructive edits. I also spent more time than everyone else put together to explain my actions on the talk page. I was the one who bothered to participate meaningfully in the discussion, and now I am the one penalized for it. What bitter irony is this? The audacity, to accuse me of wasting your little time, when I have been so generous with mine. It's not good resort to accusing editors you disagree with, as they are at least as vested as you are. Sotuman (talk) 05:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, Sotuman. I'm not sure myself what's relevant, because your post here is obscure to me. Please just restore anything that you wish to refer to in your appeal to your talkpage. Or, even better, forget about your talkpage and instead give diffs for any posts you refer to. A diff is a code that uniquely identifies a post, and what worries me is that you may not yet have learned to create them. The process is described in the help page Wikipedia:Simple diff and link guide. Please read that, and let me know if you think you can follow the instructions there and create the diffs you need. (I created that help page myself, and did my best to accommodate new users, so I hope you'll find it helpful.) Let me know if you find diff-creation problematic, and we'll figure out something else. Bishonentalk 20:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC).
- Hello, Bishonen. I thank you very much for the diff guide, which I fully intend to use. Before the appeal proper, I wanted to do a preliminary hearing to determine whether the involved people thought I was wasting their time on the article from which you banned me. This criterion is important because it formed the concluding statement of the rationale for your ban notice that was posted to my talk page. The people who I tagged in my previous edit already know their own involvement and will be able to support the ban or not based on your criterion. If the answer is yes, it was a waste of time, then I will probably not continue my appeal of the ban, as the community will have already spoken against me. So not including you and me, but including this user who I have just brought up to speed on the situation, there are twelve votes to count. This is the count so far:
- Tgeorgescu: No, Theroadislong: Yes,dave souza: Yes,Johnuniq:Maybe yes,Doug WellerPerhaps
- No Not a waste of time = 1
- Yes Waste of time = 2
- Maybe yes or Perhaps = 2
- This leaves 7 more people left to vote. Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please don't twist things, I said "It's irrelevant whether you wasted my time" you did waste it, but I fail to see the relevance regarding your topic ban. Theroadislong (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is relevant because the question of whether or not I wasted people's time formed the criterion for the topic ban. I've changed the tally to reflect your now-clarified answer, thank-you. The ban notice is here: [109].Sotuman (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- When you appeal your topic ban, you do not get to frame the question that people must consider. Each of us can consider it in our own way, and decide whether your topic ban should continue based on our own individual considerations, and your appeal is not judged on a vote on a specific question as framed by you. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is relevant because the question of whether or not I wasted people's time formed the criterion for the topic ban. I've changed the tally to reflect your now-clarified answer, thank-you. The ban notice is here: [109].Sotuman (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please don't twist things, I said "It's irrelevant whether you wasted my time" you did waste it, but I fail to see the relevance regarding your topic ban. Theroadislong (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hello, Bishonen. I thank you very much for the diff guide, which I fully intend to use. Before the appeal proper, I wanted to do a preliminary hearing to determine whether the involved people thought I was wasting their time on the article from which you banned me. This criterion is important because it formed the concluding statement of the rationale for your ban notice that was posted to my talk page. The people who I tagged in my previous edit already know their own involvement and will be able to support the ban or not based on your criterion. If the answer is yes, it was a waste of time, then I will probably not continue my appeal of the ban, as the community will have already spoken against me. So not including you and me, but including this user who I have just brought up to speed on the situation, there are twelve votes to count. This is the count so far:
- Neither, nor. I generally want to give editors the chance to fully know what they could do in order to avoid blocks or bans. So, yes, if the editors are reasonable, they will mind the advice and avoid sanctions. I do not consider that a wasted effort, though the option to mind my advice is not in my own hands. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Searching Talk:Flood geology for "Sotuman" shows that the topic ban is needed to avoid repetitive argumentation and inability to accept consensus. In principle, disagreements are fine but WP:FRINGE topics can never satisfy all editors and an enthusiast can easily outlast editors concerned with maintaining articles in accordance with policies. Johnuniq (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please answer the question of whether or not you think I was a waste of your time. This is important because in the topic ban notice, Bishonen specifically stated that, "[Sotuman has] been wasting other people's time at Flood geology long enough." This idea of what I wrote there being a waste of time to other people appears to be the main rationale for applying the ban, but is it actually true? This is why I'd like to know. Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Decline appeal. The topic ban looks valid to me, and having read the indicated user talk page content and the appeal here (which does not really address the reasons for the ban), I see no justification in ending it or modifying it. (But what I do see is a failure to understand Wikipedia's approach to balance, NPOV, verifiability, etc - eg "there should be equal weight given to different but complementary views regardless of how many people hold to one view or the other, especially since Wikipedia has no way to accurately assess such quantities" is fundamentally misunderstanding how evidence works.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: Thanks for taking an interest in this situation. Allow me to bring you up to speed, after which you are also welcome to answer the question of whether or not I am a waste of your time: That section on the talk page was examining the limits of science. Geologists are very often much like forensic investigators, able only to interpret the aftermath of an event. On a long-cold case such as the formation of the majority of the earth's surface geology, it seems that the mainstream scientific effort is less about following the clues than fitting them by decree into the preferred uniformitarian-biased model. This action reduces the scientific method to the level of squabbles about which type of pizza is the best. How many people hold to a specific view becomes totally irrelevant, because the focus has shifted from the objective evidence of sedimentary deposits to the preferrence of the investigator. The answers to the questions we ask about the origins of this part of the earth's geology are given the form of highly-detailed artistic renditions that each carry about as much weight as the next person's. An article with a certain title should be about floods, geology, sedimentary geology, or surface-water hydrology, but it looks to me like an ugly art installation, an elephantine straw-man whose effect is to hinder those who wish to learn something about how moving water affects the earth. Despite all this, I am prepared to accept the article as-is. My final effort was to add an about template at the top, and now it seems I'm topic-banned. How is this supposed to promote discussion? Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The purpose of this discussion here is not to continue with your personal views on science in general, or geology specifically. That is not the purpose of your talk page either - or, in fact, the purpose of Wikipedia at all. And this reply does not change my opinion that the topic ban should remain. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Are you then recusing yourself from the question of whether or not the effect of my efforts at discussion on the forbidden topic talk page were or were not a waste of time? Please find the ban notice [110].Sotuman (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- When your topic ban is up for review, you do not get to dictate the way I must review it or what specific questions I must consider. I have reviewed it in my way, and I support the upholding of the ban. That is all. My advice to you at this point would be to drop this subject, and go do something constructive somewhere on the rest of Wikipedia. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Boing!, I won't be quote mined and allow you to dictate the style of my appeal. If you view my input on the banned topic as a waste of time, just say so. No one is forcing you to continue commenting here except yourself. The reason it is important is because the question of whether or not I was wasting people's time formed the rationale for the ban in the first place. So it's really not me who's dictating what must be reviewed, it's in the notice itself. Sotuman (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- When your topic ban is up for review, you do not get to dictate the way I must review it or what specific questions I must consider. I have reviewed it in my way, and I support the upholding of the ban. That is all. My advice to you at this point would be to drop this subject, and go do something constructive somewhere on the rest of Wikipedia. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Are you then recusing yourself from the question of whether or not the effect of my efforts at discussion on the forbidden topic talk page were or were not a waste of time? Please find the ban notice [110].Sotuman (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The purpose of this discussion here is not to continue with your personal views on science in general, or geology specifically. That is not the purpose of your talk page either - or, in fact, the purpose of Wikipedia at all. And this reply does not change my opinion that the topic ban should remain. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: Thanks for taking an interest in this situation. Allow me to bring you up to speed, after which you are also welcome to answer the question of whether or not I am a waste of your time: That section on the talk page was examining the limits of science. Geologists are very often much like forensic investigators, able only to interpret the aftermath of an event. On a long-cold case such as the formation of the majority of the earth's surface geology, it seems that the mainstream scientific effort is less about following the clues than fitting them by decree into the preferred uniformitarian-biased model. This action reduces the scientific method to the level of squabbles about which type of pizza is the best. How many people hold to a specific view becomes totally irrelevant, because the focus has shifted from the objective evidence of sedimentary deposits to the preferrence of the investigator. The answers to the questions we ask about the origins of this part of the earth's geology are given the form of highly-detailed artistic renditions that each carry about as much weight as the next person's. An article with a certain title should be about floods, geology, sedimentary geology, or surface-water hydrology, but it looks to me like an ugly art installation, an elephantine straw-man whose effect is to hinder those who wish to learn something about how moving water affects the earth. Despite all this, I am prepared to accept the article as-is. My final effort was to add an about template at the top, and now it seems I'm topic-banned. How is this supposed to promote discussion? Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Decline Sotuman may mean well, but as he's asked, I found him a time sink. Boing! has said it well - there's no suggestion in Sotuman's appeal that he understands why he was banned or our policies and guidelines, despite editors trying to explain them to him. Doug Weller talk 14:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank-you for your input. I do mean well, so thank-you very much for this good-faith acknowlegement. Also thank-you for taking the time and effort to patiently explain some of the policies and guidelines to the many different people here on Wikipedia who may not be as seasoned as you. I can't say it enough, Wikipedia needs people like you. Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Please clarify whether a "time sink" is the same as a "waste of time". You appear to sink a lot of time into Wikipedia in general, but I suspect that this is your choice and that you enjoy it. Otherwise, why would you do it? Therefore I re-interpret your answer as only Perhaps, and this is noted above. Sotuman (talk) 05:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank-you for your input. I do mean well, so thank-you very much for this good-faith acknowlegement. Also thank-you for taking the time and effort to patiently explain some of the policies and guidelines to the many different people here on Wikipedia who may not be as seasoned as you. I can't say it enough, Wikipedia needs people like you. Sotuman (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Decline. Sotuman's TBan is a reflection of refusal to drop the stick. So is this appeal. Guy (Help!) 22:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @JzG: Is there a Wikipedia essay or guidline or policy to elucidate that remark?? Obviously I am interested in fighting for my unhindered ability to contribute to Wikipedia. Who reading this wouldn't make some attempt at the same, were they facing a topic ban? Wikipedia is not so big that the right of any individual editor to participate in a discussion directly concerning them should be treated so flippantly. Sotuman (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:STICK. See also WP:SEALION. Guy(Help!) 23:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Guy. I am not the one who beat the horse to death. I am the one who was trying to convince people that it is a rotting dead horse and that it should probably be cleaned up, or have some sort of warning sign posted so passers by don't end up wasting their time there or worse, getting some sort of deadly disease. Sotuman (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:STICK. See also WP:SEALION. Guy(Help!) 23:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @JzG: Is there a Wikipedia essay or guidline or policy to elucidate that remark?? Obviously I am interested in fighting for my unhindered ability to contribute to Wikipedia. Who reading this wouldn't make some attempt at the same, were they facing a topic ban? Wikipedia is not so big that the right of any individual editor to participate in a discussion directly concerning them should be treated so flippantly. Sotuman (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sotuman, do you realize I gave you a very narrow topic ban — from one quite limited subject only — and that you can edit the entire rest of Wikipedia? Your ability to edit 99.9999% of Wikipedia is completely unhindered. Your question "Who reading this wouldn't make some attempt at the same, were they facing a topic ban?" is rhetorical, no doubt, but honestly, I think the answer would be "most people reading this wouldn't make such a song and dance about such a tiny topic ban". Do you really have no interest at all in the other 99.9999%? Also, you should realize that the people you have pinged aren't obliged to answer you, though quite a few of them have had the kindness to do so. They're volunteers. Please read WP:SEALION and think about it. Bishonen talk 23:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC).
- I'm a volunteer too, and for the most part, exercise a lot of kindness in my replies. At least, I haven't been blocked by the founder, yet. Yet I am referred to as being a civil POV pusher, as if this isn't exactly what everyone else is too who participates in the talk pages. Why does this feel like a case of me vs everyone else? The topic ban is unnecessary and unjust. Please can you take it off? Have you ever been topic banned, even for a short time to see what it felt like? Or maybe you have experienced a tiny pebble in the bottom of your shoe and tried walking any distance. This is not a life or death situation, but still serious enough to warrant stopping what you're doing, taking the shoe off, and shaking it upside down until the pebble is gotten rid of, possibly even while doing a little song and dance. That is how I feel about this topic ban. It doesn't stop me from doing most of what I want to, but that doesn't mean it belongs in my shoe either. Sotuman (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- "At least, I haven't been blocked by the founder, yet". I see you've done some opposition research, Sotuman, and come up with my block at the hands of Jimbo Wales in 2009. Your broad hint misfired a bit, as I'm rather proud of Jimbo's block (see the circumstances at WP:BLOCKABDICATE). But I can see what you were trying to do, and it disinclines me from taking any further part here, explaining stuff to you, etc. This community discussion will lift your topic ban or not (at the moment it's looking like "not) — not me — I'm done. Bishonentalk 02:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC).
- I know you're proud of it, otherwise why would you showcase it on your user page? Who else can say they've been blocked by Jimbo, and for calling someone a little shit? I think it's hilarious and pretty awesome. It wasn't an ad hominem, it was an acknowlegement of your credibility. Thank-you for your commitment to letting the community discussion lift the ban in due time. I agree that it seems that the time is not yet, hence the "indefinite" part of the ban. But one thing I need to know is, since the topic of how moving water deposits sediment is fascinating to me, I need guaranties that unless I mention the exact term of the forbidden topic in my future discussions, I will not be considered as having violated the ban. I am not at all interested in the pseudoscience, and it is most unfortunate that the title of the forbidden article is so confusing. Sotuman (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- "At least, I haven't been blocked by the founder, yet". I see you've done some opposition research, Sotuman, and come up with my block at the hands of Jimbo Wales in 2009. Your broad hint misfired a bit, as I'm rather proud of Jimbo's block (see the circumstances at WP:BLOCKABDICATE). But I can see what you were trying to do, and it disinclines me from taking any further part here, explaining stuff to you, etc. This community discussion will lift your topic ban or not (at the moment it's looking like "not) — not me — I'm done. Bishonentalk 02:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC).
- I'm a volunteer too, and for the most part, exercise a lot of kindness in my replies. At least, I haven't been blocked by the founder, yet. Yet I am referred to as being a civil POV pusher, as if this isn't exactly what everyone else is too who participates in the talk pages. Why does this feel like a case of me vs everyone else? The topic ban is unnecessary and unjust. Please can you take it off? Have you ever been topic banned, even for a short time to see what it felt like? Or maybe you have experienced a tiny pebble in the bottom of your shoe and tried walking any distance. This is not a life or death situation, but still serious enough to warrant stopping what you're doing, taking the shoe off, and shaking it upside down until the pebble is gotten rid of, possibly even while doing a little song and dance. That is how I feel about this topic ban. It doesn't stop me from doing most of what I want to, but that doesn't mean it belongs in my shoe either. Sotuman (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- decline per above. Sotuman's arguments are most convincing of the need to maintain the TBAN. Sotuman's tenacity is just plain disruptive. The need to "fight" is quite troubling in that the user cannot see how disruptive they are. This is not a legal proceeding, though you would not realize it reading the cross examination that Sotuman makes of other editors. Please, Sotuman, do find some other way to improve Wikipedia. DlohCierekim (talk) 23:35, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dude, I'm not a friggin sea lion! If this was a legal proceeding, it would have been thrown out of court by now. I'm not the one who started this post, I didn't force anyone to comment here. We're all here by our own volition and have unique and valuable contributions to make. Sotuman (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- You're right about it being thrown out, but wrong in your assumption of the result. Wikipedia's administrator community has the authority to ban people form specific topics if their input is a net negative. The total number of such people who have ever realised - at least at the time - that their contributions are a net negative, is approximately the square root of fuck all. Which is, in pretty much every case, exactly why the ban was put in place: the egregious idiots we simply block. You are now in violation of one of the laws that definitely does apply on Wikipedia, the law of holes. Guy(Help!) 00:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, feel free to jump in anywhere, Guy. When something is thrown out of court, it's because the prosecution didn't have a case, FYI. There it is again, everybody, the inexplicable use of the undefined "we" pronoun. Do you have multiple personality disorder or something? People get annoyed when I refer to myself in the third person, but at least it is clear who is included and who is being referring to. Sotuman (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- You're right about it being thrown out, but wrong in your assumption of the result. Wikipedia's administrator community has the authority to ban people form specific topics if their input is a net negative. The total number of such people who have ever realised - at least at the time - that their contributions are a net negative, is approximately the square root of fuck all. Which is, in pretty much every case, exactly why the ban was put in place: the egregious idiots we simply block. You are now in violation of one of the laws that definitely does apply on Wikipedia, the law of holes. Guy(Help!) 00:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dude, I'm not a friggin sea lion! If this was a legal proceeding, it would have been thrown out of court by now. I'm not the one who started this post, I didn't force anyone to comment here. We're all here by our own volition and have unique and valuable contributions to make. Sotuman (talk) 00:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I've never been blocked by Mr Wales. I did block myself once. That was embarrassing. I fear this hole problem may run deeper than anyone thought. DlohCierekim (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
<misleading header removed>
This topic ban is an insult to the spirit of Wikipedia. Those who have declined my emotional and logical appeal have done so without proper consideration or empathy. The ban itself remains arbitrary and unjustifiable. A couple have stated unequivocally that I am guilty of wasting their time, and I can make no apology for that. I guess you had better get back to doing whatever it was you were doing before that's so much more important than the abuse of a single tenacious Wikipedian. Sotuman (talk) 05:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- You don't get to use wildly misleding headers here, sorry, Sotuman. "Current conclusion" sounds like it would be followed by the community's conclusion at the moment — not like it would be followed by an outburst from you, as it was. I've removed it. People, aren't we done with this discussion, which has devolved into upset and anger and accusations of "abuse"? How about somebody uninvolved figuring out the actual conclusion and closing? Just a suggestion. Bishonen talk 06:20, 26 February 2019 (UTC).
- It would certainly appear so. In any event, Sotuman, the admins who declined your appeal are under no onus to satisfy you; obviously you don't like their decision, but that doesn't make their decision cruel or poorly-reasoned. Topic bans are not "insults" to the "spirit" of Wikipedia. Acting in such a fashion to provoke a topic ban is. Ravenswing 06:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Post-close comments
- @Bishonen: It actually wasn't a bad idea to remove the current conclusion heading, because the matter is not yet concluded. However, this discussion shall be temporarilly suspended for a period of 3-6 months. The template for marking it as closed was wrongly applied. Someone needs to make a new template for suspended discussions.
- @Ravenswing: When "such a fashion" refers to an editor adding an about template to the top of an article with ample explanation of why that action is desirable, the placement of a topic ban on the editor is against the spirit of Wikipedia because it demonstrates that rationale is less important than concensus, when in fact legitimate concensus can only arise when there has been adequate explanation of rationale. Similarly for this appeal, which I have not even properly gotten to by applying the diff guide that Bishonen kindly made, how can a person say "I have reviewed it in my way, and I support the upholding of the ban. That is all." and expect that to be accepted as an explanation? There is no articulated reasoning whatsoever. That you call it poorly-reasoned is an overstatement. Sure, I am disappointed with the lack of enthusiasm from other users. They have no problem banning people arbitrarily, tattle-taling, or sending template notices of edit-warring or other alleged policy violations, or even sending mildly conciliatory messages after an appeal fails, but where is all the accompanying rationale? I'd like to see a little more gusto as far as reasoning is concerned before indefinite topic bans are allowed to stand, and few less patronizing conciliatory messages on my talk page.
- This may even be labelled as in violation of some policy, or just another outburst of upset or anger, when in fact I'm not angry or upset, just disappointed with the inability of my acusers to reason their own actions out. It's like a kangaroo court. Dlohcierekim put "...do find some other way to improve Wikipedia.", and made noble attempts at comic relief, while Boing reiterated "...go do something constructive somewhere on the rest of Wikipedia." Maybe, the best thing anyone can do for Wikipedia at the moment is to encourage those editors who think of their time as "...Wikipedia's most precious resource [that] must not be recklessly squandered." to stop their pursuit of frivolous bans in the first place, especially when it's against editors like me who were actually trying to improve the article space. Sotuman (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: It actually wasn't a bad idea to remove the current conclusion heading, because the matter is not yet concluded. However, this discussion shall be temporarilly suspended for a period of 3-6 months. The template for marking it as closed was wrongly applied. Someone needs to make a new template for suspended discussions.
Closer's post-close comments
The original close of this thread was edited, and additional comments were added (diff, diff, diff). The original closing statement has now been restored by another editor (thank you). I've added the "Post-close comments" header above. Leviv ich 21:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Indef block of Sotuman
After the shenanigans with editing the above closed discussion, Sotuman's next edit was a violation of the topic ban. I have blocked indefinitely. Guy (Help!) 21:52, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- move to close the whole section Appeal of TBAN was declined above. Sotuman then violated said TBAN and has been blocked indefinitely. I endorse said indef. DlohCierekim (talk) 22:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
AfD started by now confirmed sockpuppet
AfD has been closed. GN-z11 ☎ ★ 15:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
NickBubbleBuddy was blocked by Zzuuzz as a confirmed sockpuppet of Simulation12 several hours ago. To be honest, I've actually asked Zzuuzz the question but he doesn't appear to be online so I thought I'd ask it here. Simulation12 is a long term puppetmaster with numerous socks and in his short time here as NickBubbleBuddy started an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Last Man Standing (season 7). What happens with the AfD now? Should it be procedurally closed as the creation of a sock? If all of the sock's edits, including the deletion tag that he added to the article, are removed that really screws up the AfD anyway, but they shouldn't be there in any case. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:43, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Unexplained reverts on Balhae
Page fully protected. Reported editor has been checkuser blocked as a sock. Leviv ich 15:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is an on-going content dispute between me and Anchuhu on Balhae and its related articles. I try my best to explain my edits in edit summaries, providing my reasoning for those edits. I also attempted discussion at the talk page.[111] Anchuhu however is irresponsive to this attempt at discussion and hardly provides any reason for his reverts. I would follow the WP:Dispute resolution protocol, but he is not even attempting to explain and discuss his edits, so I can't proceed to any dispute resolution efforts on the article content. I'd like administrative intervention to encourage Anchuhu into engaging in discussion, and hopefully proceed to dispute resolution on the article content at Balhae and its related articles. Koraskadi (talk) 04:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Make sure you notify anyone you report here on their talk page using {{subst:ANI-notice}}--~~~~. I have gone ahead and notified Anchuhu on your behalf. Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n! 05:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Block request for SpeedRunnerOfPersia
Blocked indef. Black Kite (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- SpeedRunnerOfPersia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
SpeedRunnerOfPersia is, at the least, WP:NOTHERE. They have engaged in disruptive editing, including the insertion of false information which constitutes vandalism. I am requesting a block for this user. Note, this edit came after a final warning on the user's talk page.
This user appears to be particularly interested in far-right, libertarian, and Nazi topics. However, they are editing in ways to subtly change information to false or incorrect statements. Sometimes this means reversing terms (e.g., classless to class-based, capitalism to communism, this edit, taxation is theft to property is theft, right-wing to libertarian, anti to pro, and right-wing to democratic).
This user also likes to mess with the See Also lists ([112], [113], [114], [115]). This user also likes to remove capitalism from articles without any stated reason ([116], [117], [118], [119]). EvergreenFir (talk) 22:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that this editor's dcontributions are often problematic. When I have a little more time I'll post some examples. Also -- although there is nothing against policy about this -- SROP is one of those editors who almost immediately deletes everything from their talk page, so it's almost impossible to get a sense of what comments and warnings they've received from other editors. One has to look at the tlak page history and check each version before the comments were deleted to see that they are the recipient of fairly constant warnings and complaints. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked indef until they start talking to the other humans. Communication is not optional. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive editor attempting to game AfC
Blocked by Bbb23. A Dolphin (squeek?) 16:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Rugile.za5 (edit talk history links watch logs) has been attempting to add an article about a Lithuanian ice-cream company (DIONE) to the project for two months; however, the manner in which they are doing so leads me to think they should be blocked. Their various drafts (Draft:Dione (ice cream), Draft:DIONE) have all been either deleted via G11 or have been rejected multiple times, and a COI inquest (they have been able to upload professionally-shot photographs of Dinoe products as their "own work" that are not obvious copyvios) on their talkpage has been ignored twice at User_talk:Rugile.za5#Editing_with_a_possible_conflict_of_interest. Their most extensive draft, Draft:DIONE, was recently rejected by an AfC reviewer after being declined three times. Now, they have moved on to copy-paste creating new drafts (Draft:DIONE Ice Cream, Draft:DIONE (ice cream)) to avoid this rejection; this is fairly clearly a WP:GAMING of the AfC process. Requesting an admin take a look. SamHolt6 (talk) 14:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase SamHolt6's last sentence: requesting an admin to block an obvious spammer, with an equally clear cut conflict of interest, and by whose contribs—those not deleted, anyway—is almost certainly undisclosed paid editing against the terms of use. Etc. ——SerialNumber54129 15:06, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Clear promotialism, block and salt.Slatersteven (talk)
User:Clivemasters's edits to Lance Percival
As requested, the reported editor has been given "a very good reason" to engage in the collaborative editing process. Blocked indefinitely for refusing to discuss edits and repeatedly editing against consensus. For more very good reasons, see WP:CONSENSUS, WP:BRD, WP:EW. (Note: on Wikipedia, "the powers that be" is the community.) Leviv ich 20:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Over several months User:Clivemasters has made repeated edits to Lance Percival, reintroducing unsourced and non-neutral content, and removing well-sourced content. He has not properly engaged in talk page discussions and has been repeated asked not to introduce this content without discussion.
The issues are:
- The unsourced claim that Percival was racing another car on a public road before a fatal accident.[128]
- Removal of the inflation-adjusted equivalent figure for the damages paid by Percival for the accident.[link as above]
- Addition of 'only' to the amount of damages paid (PoV edit).[129]
I and User:Martinevans123 have repeatedly tried to discuss this with Clivemasters at Talk:Lance Percival and at User talk:Clivemasters, but he has responded only once, here. Since then he has reintroduced the disputed material four times without contributing to the talk page discussions.
- 2 August 2018: Deleted the amount of damages converted to its value today, clearly an attempt to make the paltry sum paid sound much more than it is [130]
- 22 October 2018: After seeing a documentary about how wikipaedia represents the establishment, I decided to re-edit this page and will continue to do so unless someone gives me a very good reason, other than that the 'powers that be' say it must be so.[131]
- 17 February 2019:[132]
- 26 February 2019:[133]
The edit summary on 22 October indicates that Clivemasters intends to continue to restore this content. This has become disruptive, and I think that administrative action is now needed. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Summoned by link. I tend to agree. I seem to recall he may have some connection with an amateur video posted on YouTube by "hopethisworks1212" which is critical of Percival. The account is easily found if people want to search for it. It's only my suspicion, of course, but it seems to follow the same peculiar agenda. He seems to be largely a WP:SPA: [134] -- Martinevans123 (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've blocked the account indefinitely, to force them to join the discussion on the talk page before making the same edit again. The edit summary from 10/22/18 linked above is a deal-breaker. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Raresterling legal threat
TPA revoked by 331dot, many thanks. Agent00x (talk) 22:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Raresterling was blocked by JJMC89 on 19th Feb, and they now appear to be making legal threats on their talk page [135], I think they need talk page access removed. Thank you. Agent00x (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Repeated Personal Attacks with disgracing insults by Future Perfect at Sunrise
This is over. See section closes Legacypac (talk) 07:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In a discussion in Talk:North_Macedonia I expressed my opinion that wikipedia should adhere to the recently signed Prespa agreement between North Macedonia and Greece in favour of peace in wikipedia. Specifically I shared my opinion that wikipedia could adopt term "North Macedonia's" as an adjective to the State's name: North Macedonia. This (along with "of North Macedonia") is the adjective recommended by "the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of North Macedonia". Admin User User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise has expressed that this would lead to poor English grammar and he is an advocate of the term Macedonian as the adjective of North Macedonia. As the discussion with other users went on he started to personally attack me using disgracing words and insults such as:
you really ought to leave this discussion to others who are competent speakers of English and don't have tin ears.
And: you really need to shut up and learn some English and some proper grammatical terminology before you expose your incompetence further here. It's getting quite embarrassing to watch.
Later, he offended all participants in the discussion by trying to collapse the whole conversation claiming "Embarrassing display of linguistic incompetence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:North_Macedonia&diff=884847688&oldid=884847206
I tried to explain that I feel insulted and disgraced so he should stop this behaviour by posting on his talk page:
I would like to inform you that I consider your "you really ought to leave this discussion to others who are competent speakers of English and don't have tin ears." a Derogatory comment and personal attack to me. .
His response had no regret or apology: You don't need to inform me of that. What you do need to do, however, is to learn how to use talk pages. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise&diff=884735657&oldid=884730558 - Stevepeterson (talk) 01:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to add here, that my proposal (bad grammar or not) is the recommended adjective by the UN and North Macedonia's MFA. There is an ongoing RFC to decide on the matter this proposal is one of the options (Option A). Futur.Perf supports a different option (C: Macedonian) [[136]] which might hint that his motivation behind the attack is not purely linguistic. - Stevepeterson (talk) 01:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Stevepeterson, you need to notify the person of this ANI thread. You can copy and use the red notice at the top of this page and paste it on their talkpage. Softlavender (talk) 02:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Future Perfect at Sunrise, I recommend striking your personal attacks (the ones noted by the OP), and making your points going forward without personal attacks (indeed, without referring to editors, only to edits/content), and this can all be put to bed unless it is part of a broader pattern. Softlavender (talk) 02:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Having read the full thread at Talk:North Macedonia#Prespa agreement, I find FPAS' comments to you unsurprising, but a bit overboard nonetheless. Your English is perfectly adequate to write, but it is absolutely inadequate to lecture any native speaker as to how English is supposed to work. You simply do not have that competence. This fact was iterated to you nearly a dozen times by everyone explaining, thoroughly, the problems with your sentence constructions.
I am afraid you and some editors here ... have chosen war over peace and the right of self determination of the Macedonian people
<- This is a jerk comment, while I'm here. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Mr rnddude! Now, I am a jerk too.. so, you are just trying to justify that because I have made such a comment, I am a jerk who deserves to be bullied and labelled as incompetent to contribute to a discussion - Stevepeterson (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, you clearly don't know as much about English sentence construction as you think you do, nor indeed about Wikilink syntax. If you don't use this as a learning moment, you're going to dig yourself into a block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Stevepeterson - 1) I'm not saying you are a jerk, I said that that was a "jerk comment". Good people can say jerk-ish things. I don't know you personally, and thus have no opinion as to your general character. 2) I am not using it to justify your being bullied, in fact, I do not think you have been bullied in the first place. I maintain that FPAS went overboard, but that's not the same as bullying. 3) I also have not "labelled [you] as incompetent to contribute to a discussion", I have identified that you are "inadequate[ly competent] to lecture" someone on English. For one, you are still continuing to assert (refer below) that possessive nouns are actually possessive adjectives. "North Macedonia" is a name (noun), not a description (adjective). So it's possessive form is a noun as well. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:44, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Mr rnddude! Now, I am a jerk too.. so, you are just trying to justify that because I have made such a comment, I am a jerk who deserves to be bullied and labelled as incompetent to contribute to a discussion - Stevepeterson (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Stevepeterson: I checked each of the diffs given above. They start with a comment at 23 February 2019 and a couple after. The comment is less than ideal but look at all the blather on that talk page (and an RfC). I do not see an issue of long-term incivility. Wikipedia is pretty tolerant of the fact that most editors are human and will get a bit worked up from time to time. I do not know why you consider the comment to be so intolerable that you need redress here. After all, the issue was a claim that
"the Greek and North Macedonia's prime ministers"
should be used in an article. No it shouldn't—it's just bad English. Johnuniq (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you [[User:Mr rnddude Johnuniq]], the discussion was about Prespa agreement and the related "MEDIA GUIDELINES by North Macedonia's MFA" which indicate that correct adjectives for the State of North Macedonia ( official organs and other public entities etc) are "President of North Macedonia" and "North Macedonia’s Defense Minister", while adjectives such as North Macedonian, Macedonian should not be used. Hence my jerk comment about respecting peace agreements and the will of Macedonian people - Stevepeterson (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
This response was actually meant for Mr rnddude above not for Johnuniq.
- That source you link to says: "•Official language: “Macedonian language”? The "advice" given in adjectival forms seems to depend wholly on the context. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, the Prespa agreement makes some rather subtle distinctions, allowing the adjective "Macedonian" in some contexts but not in others. That much is uncontroversial in principle. The discussion was how to deal with those contexts where the official prescriptive rule allows only the possessive construction. My point was that there are certain situations where it would be unnatural or cumbersome for English not to use adjectives, and Stevepeterson's contention was that that isn't a problem because the possessive (and in particular, the -s genitive) can simply be inserted anywhere an adjective could otherwise be used too (he actually insists that it is in fact an adjective), leading to that absurd example of "the Greek and North Macedonia's prime minister". Which, last time he posted on the article talk page, he was still defending as perfectly grammatical. Fut.Perf.☼ 13:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, what you say is perfectly clear. That example is indeed quite absurd. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The difference is that it was the guidelines that suggested that correct adjectives for the State are "of North Macedonia" "North Macedonia's". Based on this, they are also called possessive adjectives. So why suddenly I am the most incompetent editor even for a discussion page? I suspect that it is plainly because my proposal implied that Macedonian would not be used as an adjective for the state of North Macedonia, as user future.perfect has voted for in the RFC. - Stevepeterson (talk) 14:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- 1) No, the guideline does not say that "of North Macedonia" and "North Macedonia's" are adjectives, it mentions them as adjectival reference, which is not quite the same.
- 2) No, the Possessive determiner article does not say that constructions like "of North Macedonia" and "North Macedonia's" are called adjectives. It says that possessive determiners (like "my", "your", "her") also can be called possessive adjectives, and it says that the term "possessive determiner" also may be used to include possessive forms made from nouns, but doing both at the same time is your synthesis. --T*U (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- The difference is that it was the guidelines that suggested that correct adjectives for the State are "of North Macedonia" "North Macedonia's". Based on this, they are also called possessive adjectives. So why suddenly I am the most incompetent editor even for a discussion page? I suspect that it is plainly because my proposal implied that Macedonian would not be used as an adjective for the state of North Macedonia, as user future.perfect has voted for in the RFC. - Stevepeterson (talk) 14:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, what you say is perfectly clear. That example is indeed quite absurd. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, the Prespa agreement makes some rather subtle distinctions, allowing the adjective "Macedonian" in some contexts but not in others. That much is uncontroversial in principle. The discussion was how to deal with those contexts where the official prescriptive rule allows only the possessive construction. My point was that there are certain situations where it would be unnatural or cumbersome for English not to use adjectives, and Stevepeterson's contention was that that isn't a problem because the possessive (and in particular, the -s genitive) can simply be inserted anywhere an adjective could otherwise be used too (he actually insists that it is in fact an adjective), leading to that absurd example of "the Greek and North Macedonia's prime minister". Which, last time he posted on the article talk page, he was still defending as perfectly grammatical. Fut.Perf.☼ 13:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- That source you link to says: "•Official language: “Macedonian language”? The "advice" given in adjectival forms seems to depend wholly on the context. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- My point was that WP should adhere to Prespa and to the adjective that North Macedonia's MFA recommends. It was Future.perf (not a native speaker) who brought the example of "the Greek and North Macedonia's Prime Ministers) to prove how this adjective would lead to poor grammar. I responded that although it is indeed not common or elegant, it is not incorrect to use two adjectives of different types (one possessive one not). But despite what the adjective to the State would be, the sentence Greek and Macedonian PMs would also be acceptable because they are adjectives to citizenship not to the States. I am surprised that you believe Future.perf behaviour should be tolerated. - Stevepeterson (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- You see, that comment was almost entirely incomprehensible. You simply don't know enough to be editing articles in English Wikipedia if it involves any kind of extensive writing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:40, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just as an aside, "Macedonian" is permitted by the agreement as a valid adjective for the people and nation of North Macedonia, but even if it wasn't, Wikipedia linguistic usage is governed by WP:COMMONNAME, not by the agencies and ministries of either Greece or North Macedonia. FPAS's advocacy of the term is not remotely a casus belli worthy of mention at ANI. Ravenswing 05:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, in the thread, I also agreed that Macedonian should be used as an adjective to the PM of North Macedonia. Our discussion was about finding an adjective to the state of North Macedonia and, following UN and MFA's recommendations I suggested North Macedonia's - Stevepeterson (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Reminder: ANI, and this ANI thread, is not the place to discuss or re-litigate content issues; the place for that is the talkpage of the article. This ANI thread is for discussing personal attacks and WP:ADMINCOND, and other behavioral issues of anyone involved. Softlavender (talk) 05:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- FPAS may have expressed it too strongly, but it's perfectly true that the OP's command of English is not as good as he appears to believe it is. I'd recommend that they drop this, take onboard that evaluation of their English skills, and refrain from lecturing other editors about English grammar. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:35, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- There's never a nice way of telling an incompetent person that they are incompetent, but unfortunately it's sometimes necessary to overcome the Dunning-Kruger effect. Stevepeterson's command of English is so poor he can't even begin to realize how poor it is, and he is convinced that just because he himself can't feel anything wrong with an ungrammatical construction, it must in fact be perfectly acceptable. Of course, that in itself wouldn't justify discussion in normal circumstances, but Stevepeterson is participating in a large, complex RfC about just these matters of English usage. He has been filling it with huge amounts of text over the last days, trying his hardest to push it into a direction that would not only encourage but even require the use of grossly ungrammatical constructions across potentially hundreds of articles. This is disruptive and it has to stop. So yes, Stevepeterson needs to shut up about that grammar issue, and since he lacks the self-awareness, he needs to be told. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Reading through this discussion, I did not quite understand BMK's comment here until I saw this edit made two hours after the comment from BMK. As late as yesterday I advised Stevepeterson about changes old posting. In that situation it was rather innocent, but in the present thread the refactoring, without marking what they have changed, is either in CIR territory or plain disruptive. --T*U (talk) 08:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you T*U, I have only improved a bit the word styling to make my text more readable and mentioned the change. the content is exactly identical and there was certainly no other intention but to help new readers understand better Stevepeterson (talk) 08:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- When you "improved abit the word styling", you made BMKs comment look very pedantic to people who just read the discussion and not the edit summaries. That is exactly why WP:REDACT demands that you mark your changes clearly. You either have not read it as I asked you to do, or you have chosen to ignore it. --T*U (talk) 09:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- (EC didn't notice so submitting late) I wasn't intending to comment in this thread until I read this latest reply. Whatever you intended to do, or thought you were doing, it's quite concerning you don't seem to understand even after it was pointed out to you, that it was highly problematic for you to change your comment without making it clear you had changed it and after it had been replied to with that reply founded in part on what you were changing. For this reason, I'm very close to supporting a WP:CIR block. Nil Einne (talk) 10:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you T*U, I have only improved a bit the word styling to make my text more readable and mentioned the change. the content is exactly identical and there was certainly no other intention but to help new readers understand better Stevepeterson (talk) 08:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- So if I skimmed this thread correctly, FPS has not really done anything actionable? I cannot think of a really polite way to tell someone their knowledge of English isn't quite what it could/should be. I can't quite get a rip on it myself-- I would never even try to edit in any language but English. @Stevepeterson: Sometimes less is more. Perhaps write less and pay closer attention to the sense it makes? Avoid complex structures? Oh. The worder of the above 1st sentence I get because of my (limited) German. Not sure how well it parses to non German speakers. DlohCierekim (talk) 09:22, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well as someone who is a native speaker (but a bad writer) of English I have to say I would have found some of the above comments hardly polite (and yes you can say "your standard of English is not very good" without being unnecessarily rude). But by the same token it's clear this user does not have the standard of English that even I have, and I can see why frustration would set in if they (as they seem to have done) refused to accept that their English is not as good as they clearly think it is. I would close this, with maybe a mild boomerang in the sense of mentoring and an agreement to not make any changes to articles without first running them past people whose standard of English is of a higher order.Slatersteven (talk) 10:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Personally I'm opposed to closing this until Stevepeterson has indicated some understanding of the problem highlighted above. I.E. that they need to make it clear in the thread that they've modified their comments, when said modification comes after the comments were replied to and where their changes are likely to significantly affect at least one reply. Nil Einne (talk) 11:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I maybe should clarify. If Stevepeterson really doesn't understand why it's a problem when someone comments on their English, and they modify the English that was commented on (even without a meaning change) and don't tell anyone, that's concerning. But not something that I feel needs a block. The editor can handle this simply by making sure they follow WP:REDACT or at least make some effort to indicate modification in the thread itself, even in cases where they think it doesn't matter. If they don't indicate that they will do so and still don't understand why they were wrong to think their modifications made no different to the reply, I'm willing to support a block. (Or whatever other remedy e.g. a topic ban on modifying comments after reply.) Editors are entitled to have their comments seen in proper context. Also I don't think it matters whether BMK's comment had merit before the modification, or they still had merit after. Nil Einne (talk) 11:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Personally I'm opposed to closing this until Stevepeterson has indicated some understanding of the problem highlighted above. I.E. that they need to make it clear in the thread that they've modified their comments, when said modification comes after the comments were replied to and where their changes are likely to significantly affect at least one reply. Nil Einne (talk) 11:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well as someone who is a native speaker (but a bad writer) of English I have to say I would have found some of the above comments hardly polite (and yes you can say "your standard of English is not very good" without being unnecessarily rude). But by the same token it's clear this user does not have the standard of English that even I have, and I can see why frustration would set in if they (as they seem to have done) refused to accept that their English is not as good as they clearly think it is. I would close this, with maybe a mild boomerang in the sense of mentoring and an agreement to not make any changes to articles without first running them past people whose standard of English is of a higher order.Slatersteven (talk) 10:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Nil Einne, I came here because I felt disrespected and insulted and I ended up receiving even more personal attacks and threats. This is shocking and I doubt that it is in line with wikipedia's guidelines. The comments about my English and my intellectual capacity here were so harsh, that I felt the need to make some minor linguistic improvements. I understand that it was a bad decision because someone had already responded at least once. My only intention was to help people understand better my comments and as you can see I made sure that the original meaning remained intact. If you feel that I deserve a block, a boomerang etc then please go ahead. - Stevepeterson (talk) 12:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Well if you understand it was a bad decision, then I guess we can close this. That said, it sounds to me like you're still confused about the problem. If you felt your comment needed corrections, there are various ways you could have done that. The least contentious way would have been to follow the procedure outlined in WP:REDACT. As an alternative, you could have posted your corrected version as a follow up, keeping the original version completely intact or maybe striking it out (and saying in your followup you struck it out). Frankly although others may disagree, I would have personally been okay even if you had edited you response without marking it but left a note straight afterwards saying you modified it after BMK responded with a diff, as is now the case with my diff. In other words, you wanting to make corrections to your comment isn't really a problem.
The problem is when you edit your response after someone has replied to it, and leave no indication other than in the edit history this happened. It's particularly bad when by your own admission now, you editing was partly in response to comments contained in the reply. This is something which most definitely not in line with wikipedia guidelines, or really any common sense of decency.
As for the other stuff, I echo what others have said. Perhaps the responses sometimes went too far and could have been worded better, but it is true that your English capability suggests your judgement of what is and isn't good English is questionable, and so your ability to participate in discussions surrounding that is questionable. Worse then that, you seem to have great problems either understanding or accepting this, which I think has understandably annoyed people. From what I've seen your English capability it's sufficient to participate in many areas of wikipedia, so it would be better for you to do so, rather than to try and participate in areas where you are specifically arguing over what is good English.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but am I right one reason for your apparently poorer than native English capability is because it is indeed not your native language and you also understand at least one other language? If I'm right, then you could be a great asset in finding and verifying sourced material, and helping people who don't understand or poorly understand the languages you speak well with translations etc. If this doesn't interest you, there are plenty of other areas you could find which don't involve you arguing over what's good English.
- Since Wikipedia follows its own manual of style on written English and not that of the Pespra agreement, I don't see why it's even an issue or in question. And since the OP now seems to agree that this can be closed (nearly 12 hours ago), shall we do so? Unless anyone's suggesting a TBan from all things North Macedonian, broadly construed? ——SerialNumber54129 14:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Discussing about grammar before discussing about meaning is more than often a method used to discard the peasants who dare to discuss the opinion of some 'we happy few' player. If you want to convey the meaning of "Downing Street and Macedonian PM", you have to use "North Macedonia's PM" unless you want to discuss the nationality or ethnicity of both ministers. And then you have to adapt how you describe the Downing Street part to obtain a politically correct and well-balanced sentence. If you perceive that clearly, it shouldn't be to difficult to explain that clearly, and politely. Exercise: write down the contrapositive, the inverse and the converse of the former assertion. Pldx1 (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Your statement that " you have to use "North Macedonia's PM" unless you want to discuss the nationality or ethnicity of both ministers" is incorrect as "North Macedonian PM" is quite simply the PM of the country known as North Macedonia, regardless of the ethnicity of the holder of that office. --Khajidha (talk) 16:00, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I genuinely found this report to be concerning, along with the pile on against the OP. Calling editors “incompetent” and telling them to “shut up” and that they are an “embarrassment” is incredibly concerning coming from an admin. Then, I read the actual discussion. When you’re quite straightforwardly in the wrong about something, and are forcing an extended debate about a grammatical issue that you’re objectively wrong about, people are going to get frustrated. You were being incompetent and obtuse. Listen to criticism, and admit when you are wrong. ~Swarm~ {talk} 17:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- So it looks User:Stevepeterson made a lot of errors and erroneous arguments to the extent that FPS telling them that they were wrong was warranted. IMO FPS, on several occasions did that in an overly nasty way. IMO both problems should be recognized and both editors told to "stop doing that". North8000 (talk) 17:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- And now I wonder why Stevepeterson, under the guise of unsigned postings made logged-out as an IP, and writing in deliberately obfuscated Greek in order to make it more difficult for outsiders to understand, has been going to other editors' talkpages trying to canvas for support [139]. Translation: "'Future perfect' attacked another Greek, and T-Star-U [i.e. T*U) is supporting him at ANI. Since you are experienced about the relation between those two, go and help.". Does that strike anybody else as rather poor style and an expression of quite a pronounced battleground mentality? It's quite clear from earlier edits that the IP is Stevepeterson [140]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:44, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please see my response below - Stevepeterson (talk) 01:35, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wow that is not good. If that can all be shown to be true, I think that is deserving of a block. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Good catch! I rather like my crypto-Greek name "tiasterikosgiou". Maybe I'll start using it, unless Stevepeterson claims copyright, that is. What I do not quite understand, is why that specific editor was summoned. I cannot recall any controverses with them, and certainly not where also FPaS was involved. --T*U (talk) 20:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) This is descending from tragedy into farce. Propose a block as a means of emphasising to this editor how seriously their actions are taken, that they have had a lot of rope here—which they have already squandered with obfuscationgood word :), and that the sheer number of editors whose time and energy has also been squandered with trying to hammer home something that apparently they refuse to hear...OK, I suggest a short block as a method of forcibly obtaining their full attention; but, frankly, with such a litany as WP:CANVAS, WP:SOCK, WP:IDHT, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:ASPERSIONS, and almost certainly WP:CIR, then, frankly, if someone wants to propose indef instead, I'm in no-one's way. ——SerialNumber54129 18:56, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Okay this is nuts. I support a block given the ridiculous canvassing above. I'd also support an appropriate topic ban if they were to come back. Of course both of these could be handled via simple administrative action (at least I think so for the topic ban given [141]). Nil Einne (talk) 21:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Have I understood this right? Is this a Greek person fighting to try to stop the demonym "North Macedonian" being used in relation to North Macedonia, and thus trying to carry on the nationalist fight? I think we need at least a topic ban here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, its actually the opposite. Nationalists from Greece propose the State's adjective North Macedonian and nationalists from North Macedonia: Macedonian. Since the UN and North Macedonia's MFA released their guidelines recommending the terms of North Macedonia or North Macedonia's I have been supporting those official guidelines. I have been attacked as "incompetent to participate in a discussion" from people who claim that this proposal is poor grammar. I suspect that their intention is not to preserve the linguistic dignity of wikipedia but to shut up a voice who expresses different opinion to what they voted [[142]]. And there is no doubt that I am alone here so if there was a battlefield it would be me against a number of users with history of acting as a group against people with different opinion and/or ethnicity. You want to ban me and block me because I protested against an unfair personal attack? Please consider what kind of behaviours this would promote. - Stevepeterson (talk) 00:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, they wanted to say "the Greek and North Macedonia's prime ministers" rather than "the Greek and Macedonian", purportedly for semantic/technical reasons, and were being completely obtuse when people were pointing out that that terminology didn't even begin to make sense. It makes so much sense that that they're just a Greek still caught up on the naming dispute, and in hindsight, it seems obvious, coming from an editor trying to reject the validity of the term "Macedonian", but they were being deceptive, repeatedly using the term on the talk page, and waxing poetic about embracing peace and conflict resolution. All while making these twisted, bludgeoning arguments that "Macedonian" can't be used to describe the state of North Macedonia. A TBAN is a bare minimum, though I'd prefer to see a block. ~Swarm~ {talk} 00:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- In the thread and also in the RFC I support the term "Macedonian" for the ethnic group, culture , language etc, inline with the UN and Prespa resolution. The question here is about the adjective for the state of North Macedonia and all guidelines suggest North Macedonia's is the correct one (based not North Macedonia's MFA) which I also support Stevepeterson (talk) 01:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- A demonym is what you're looking for, I believe. "North Macedonia's" is not a demonym, and "the Greek and North Macedonia's prime ministers" is grammatically incorrect English - but you have already been told that multiple times. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, and as has also been explained to you multiple times, the English Wikipedia will use whatever terminology is commonly adopted in the English speaking world, not what one specific document says. It's all explained at WP:COMMONNAME. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Response from Stevepeterson (moved to here)
Baseless sockpuppet and other allegations Legacypac (talk) 07:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC) |
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- Several users who support Fut.Perf. have a history of acting as a group to conduct topic-specific personal attacks. This is done to such extend that they have been investigated for sockpuppetry. A background check of these users would reveal that this is not the first case of personally attacking editors and acting as a group. This is taken from C*T's talk page from 2018:
I suspect you are also using wiki accounts in names Dolescum and Future Perfect at Sunrise, and a couple more at least, so as to sabotage pages on Greece and Greek related subjects. Chip on the shoulder or just another mindless vandal who resents other peoples' constructive contributions? A Gounaris
May I verify that T*U is a "back-up" to protect a pro-albanian and anti-hellenic POV in articles related to Albanian national myths. Here is assisting in naming Ivan Castrioti "Gjon" and only "Gjon", although he is known with other names in non-albanian secondary and tertiary sources (there are no primary albanian sources). This doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is the same physical persons with FP and the others who patrol the same group articles.--User:Skylax30 (talk) 06:22, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Skylax30 Personal attacks like the one above will not be tolerated. Consider this a warning. Although I suppose getting mistaken for editors as different as Fut Perf, a "pro-Albanian", Alexikoua and Dr.K. by different users is a sort of unintended compliment. ---- User:Calthinus (talk) 14:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
As you can see I invited User:Calthinus to share his experience in regards to the relationship between some users here. And I even chose one who apparently had supported them in that instance not one who has protested against them eg User:Skylax30. There is no doubt that since the beginning I am acting alone here and haven't received any support whatsoever. And my history , unlike many users here includes no personal attacks - Stevepeterson (talk) 00:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, apart from the personal attack contained in this posting. I suspect we are done here, and there's only one response to this nonsense. Black Kite (talk) 00:20, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am very confused about what this is supposed to be. I don't know of any ... "relationship" and to be honest I'm not sure what users are being referred to here... ?--Calthinus (talk) 07:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Calthinus: You have my sympathy. This is hard enough to follow even for those of us that have seen it developing over some days... --T*U (talk) 07:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, don't worry, Calthinus, somebody tried to canvas you over an issue you had nothing to do with, but everybody here realizes you had no role in it at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:10, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am very confused about what this is supposed to be. I don't know of any ... "relationship" and to be honest I'm not sure what users are being referred to here... ?--Calthinus (talk) 07:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Arbitration case
Dead issue. The first was declined and the others mooted. This venue has already decided or is in the process of deciding the issues at hand. DlohCierekim (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
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I would like to let you know that there is a parallel arbitration case for this. I thank you all for your time and regret any wrong doing. -Stevepeterson (talk) 16:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- No there are three, and this is taking the right royal.Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: the only reasonable response to Stevepeterson's nonsense
Consensus is very clear. Stevepeterson is community banned from Wikipedia. Yunshui 雲水 07:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC) |
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Stevepeterson is indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia.
- Support as proposer - Clearly, the OP has not listened to anything they've been told by multiple editors, instead they've doubled down and made totally ridiculous sockpuppetry claims without evidence. They need to be indef blocked per WP:CIR, WP:IDHT, WP:ASPERSIONS, WP:NPA, WP:NPOV, WP:CANVASS, WP:SOCK, WP:BATTLEGROUND. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:09, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef block/ban - While I could and would simply indef myself, I'd prefer to make this formal and final. This appears to be a long-term POV-pushing SPA who has been doing this for years, and has somehow managed to fly under the radar, due in part to deceptive efforts to portray themselves as a neutral commentator without any opinion on the matter. They're a toxic CIR/NOTHERE case who seems fundamentally incapable of any semblance of reasonable conduct, and our volunteers do not deserve to waste any more of their time trying to deal with them in good faith. ~Swarm~ {talk} 03:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- A siteban works for me as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
TBANI'd support a TBAN on this user mentioning the word "Macedonia" (or a ban from all of Eastern Europe / Balkans - note recent change to DS). Probably for 3 months - the Wikipedia RFC should be over by then. If they want to edit on some other topic, they should be able to do so. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)- Indef block they don't appear to have any interest in letting this go. We can hear an appeal after the naming RFC is done. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Support either TBAN or Blockneeds a cooling off period Legacypac (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)- Support CBAN upgrade my vote given continued disruption. The 31 hr block is a good temporary solution while we complete the CBAN Legacypac (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- And Stevenpeterson just thanked me for voting to Block him. That's a first Legacypac (talk) 04:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Same. More bizarre, unhinged conduct at best, petty harassment at worst. ~Swarm~ {talk} 04:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- It was genuine politeness and inline with my style and manners throughout my editing history in Wikipedia. No sarcasm involved. Stevepeterson (talk) 05:12, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- While it is true that it is something you have done repeatedly, thanking someone for doing/saying something negative to or about you is indeed sarcastic. And please don't thank me.
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 06:26, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please remember, cool down blocks are bad; cool down bocks are good. DlohCierekim (talk) 19:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- While it is true that it is something you have done repeatedly, thanking someone for doing/saying something negative to or about you is indeed sarcastic. And please don't thank me.
- Support: Strange though it might seem to a certain party, it's entirely possible to support FPAS's actions without being a member of some sinister cabal, or having motives beyond upholding Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Ravenswing 06:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef block (not a ban). Look out, here comes the Bishonen grammophone record: the time and patience of constructive editors is Wikipedia's most precious resource and must not be recklessly squandered. Bishonen talk 06:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Bishonen: Just to be clear, there is no distinction between a community-imposed indef and a "ban" under policy. The only reason I invoked the word "ban" was to intentionally preempt any confusion on this subject. One cannot support the former while opposing the latter, because, according to policy, they are the same thing. This was implemented by community consensus, back in 2017. So, if you're advocating for a unilateral discretionary block to which normal blocking/unblocking procedures apply, you may quite simply impose it yourself. However, even if you were to do so, and a formal consensus endorsed the action, the user would be "banned" under policy anyway. ~Swarm~ {talk} 07:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: my thinking was that a block can be lifted by a single admin, iff the user manages to convince them with a good unblock request, whereas a community ban must be appealed at AN/ANI. I don't see much practical difference in this case, because I have difficulty imagining a persuasive block appeal from this user; my point was rather that we don't want the trouble of another AN/ANI discussion whenever the user appeals. (As you say, our volunteers do not deserve to waste any more of their time.) But I realise you framed your support as favouring a community ban ("formal and final"). Not to doubt what you say, but do you have a link for the 2017 decision about it? Bishonen talk 12:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Bishonen: You're right, of course, on the distinction between a block and a ban, but that distinction ceases to exist with community-imposed (or endorsed) indefs. Here's the link to the relevant discussion, sorry for not providing it initially. I do follow your line of thinking in that any appeals to a ban would have to get dragged though AN again whereas regular block appeals could be dealt with with less drama. But, it's a bit of a moot point, if the community imposes an indef, regardless of whether you term it to be a "block" or "ban", it needs to go back to the community on appeal. I don't think it will be a major issue, any frivolous appeals will quickly result in a loss of TP access. ~Swarm~ {talk} 01:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Community-imposed sanctions have to be lifted by the community, and not a single admin, unless the terms of the sanction states otherwise. There really wasn't any distinction between a community indefinite block and a ban before the change made in 2017. All that did was explicitly list "indefinite block" as a possible editing restriction that the community can impose, so it introduced the terminology while at the same time putting it under the same community review process.) isaacl (talk) 17:35, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- I suspect Bish is supporting indef over a topic ban, as those seem to be the two options on the table. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:38, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef Despite my nest attempts to understand the user and see both sides (and yes I would say both sides are at fault (to varying degrees)) I have been left no choice by their utter unwillingness to see that what they are doing is wrong.Slatersteven (talk) 08:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Note I have changed my vote, I see shenanigans.Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef block or site ban, also a topic ban on anything to do with Macedonia. Frankly giving what was said in the canvassing, I'd also support a topic ban on anything to do with Greece. Nil Einne (talk) 11:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef block (which is effectively a community ban). On the outside chance that does not pass, I would support a topic ban on all things Macedonian (or "Macedonia's" or whatever bizarre constructions you prefer). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Per previous, of course, but many thanks to BMK for taking over as tricoteuse :) ——SerialNumber54129 13:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wow, "tricoteuse". I learn something new every day here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Supportfor a WP:CBAN We all have problems, to greater or lesser extent, with admitting we are wrong. That this users stubbornness in that regard turned into this drama fest, I can accept. But canvassing (in a non English language in a manner to obfuscate that they are canvassing?) in order to rally support when they are clearly being told they are in the wrong by several users is not acceptable. As they are apparently quite fluent in Greek but not so much in English, perhaps that is where they will be of most use. ( I learned a new word last night-- sealion. Perhaps that fits. ) DlohCierekim(talk) 13:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- And this bit ofSturm und Drang, which includes a description of the community as a pack of hyenas, is most unsettling for someone working in a collaborative environment. And no, Stevepeterson all you had to do anywhere along this road to CBAN was turn around and say, "I was wrong and most sincerely apologize. DlohCierekim(talk) 14:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Since that was posted by an IP while SP was blocked, I guess I should add "Block evasion" to the list above. What kind of "professional man" doesn't pay any attention when their colleagues tell them they're doing something wrong? Not a very professional one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Serial Number 54129: point of order-- It is neither tragedy nor farce. it is melodrama. 😏
- Now as to the TBAN, it would be a distant second choice to a CBAN as user has ridden beyond the Pale.DlohCierekim(talk) 14:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hyenas? I'd always thought more of dingos... as in that old saying (similar to the famous army slang), "wherever Wikipedia goes, the din goes too". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support community ban/indef block. A Dolphin (squeek?) 16:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Can somebody just block this guy for disuption? They've now got three [143] [144] [145] RFARs open: Frankly, if anyone's harassed by now, it's the whole bloody project! ——SerialNumber54129 16:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks Guy for our 31-hour respite :) ——SerialNumber54129 17:09, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support community ban/indef block. Stevepeterson was the first in violation of WP:NPA at Talk:North Macedonia: You and some editors here (from both sides of the Greek-Macedonian border have chosen war to peace and the right of self determination of the Macedonian people. Before, Future Perfect at Sunrise had calmly explained why phrases like "the Greek and [$Whatever]ian prime ministers" are a "crime against English grammar". Only afterwards, Future Perfect at Sunrise responded in some sharp manner ("then you really ought to leave this discussion to others who are competent speakers of English") but not without justification. Stevepeterson did not listen and opened in the meantime three threads at WP:ARC ([146], [147], [148]) and this thread including a proposal for a topic ban for Future Perfect at Sunrise. All this is disrupting and no understanding is forthcoming that Future Perfect at Sunrise and others are right in defending English grammar and that it is time to drop the stick. --AFBorchert (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Show them Kuzka's mother – Support any sanction my fellow editors think will be effective in stopping the timesink, and support closing this with a weather report. Leviv ich 04:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: Topic ban for Future.perf.
(non-admin closure) power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:44, 26 February 2019 (UTC) |
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Future.Perfect receives a topic ban for conducting personal attacks in order to influence an RFC.
- Support as proposer -
For the reasons mentioned above. Future.perf. is an administrator and should be an example of mannerism. Everything here points to the opposite. I am not flawless but I have done nothing that deserves to be banned, apart from proposing an adjective recommended by the UN (poor grammar on not) at a discussion and defending myself here from personal attacks that have continued in this very board ( by users with past accusations of acting as a group with Future.perf. in similar personal attacks. ) - Stevepeterson (talk) 03:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Michael Cohen (lawyer)
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The inevitable is here, can someone act on this request. Thank you, - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 16:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Done by Lectonar ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 16:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@Lectonar: Thank you. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 16:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
User:AZSH
Indef blocked for edit warring. Leviv ich 03:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
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here and here for edit warring on the same article. They disappeared for a while and now they're back doing the exact same thing (wholesale revert to their favourite version), while claiming that the consensus that took ages and a third opinion to finally achieve is a lie. Their refusal to get the point is becoming very disruptive. M.Bitton (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
has been blocked twice- They are back again, doing the exact same thing with complete disregard to the consensus and the ANI. I will ping the Admin who blocked them before and those who were involved in the consensus building. @CambridgeBayWeather, Wikaviani, and ReconditeRodent:. M.Bitton (talk) 00:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- And to compound it, they have started making personal attacks toward the editor who filed the report.[149] —C.Fred (talk) 00:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked then. If they agree to stop edit warring or make a solid explanation why they should be unblocked then go ahead without waiting for me to comment again. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:05, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- And to compound it, they have started making personal attacks toward the editor who filed the report.[149] —C.Fred (talk) 00:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Yunshui: declined their first unblock request, I have declined their second. Posting here in case you think I/we have been unduly harsh. (interested users: @Levivich, M.Bitton, and CambridgeBayWeather:). GiantSnowman 14:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Good blocks, good declines, all around, in my opinion. Let's note for posterity that this block is the editor's third block for edit warring in about a month. The editor immediately resumed edit warring after the expiration of the first (24hr) block and second (48hr) block. Also, in the two unblock requests for this third block, the editor has simply continued arguing the content dispute. Even in response to the decline of the second unblock request today, the editor continues to argue the content dispute–it's all they're focused on. I don't think this situation deserves additional time being spent by other admin going forward. As has already been pointed out to the editor, the standard offer applies, and hopefully things will improve in 6 months. It's not up to me, but I would suggest if a third frivolous unblock request was made, restricting TPA may be in order. Leviv ich 15:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Concerns of editing NHL Canadian Teams
User:NicholasHui blocked for 24 hours by User:NinjaRobotPirate for 3RR violation. In addition, I have warned them about sockpuppetry, and complying with WP:V/WP:NOR. Abecedare (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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I have concerns of how Yowashi and I edit hockey teams. We are frequently making incorrect information because of where we are getting the stats from and how I put the numbers in. There are times where I misplace the numbers because of the numbers I add in from the team stats. Yowashi's source of the stats information comes from the regular season stats on website and sometimes, its not immediately up to date. Yowashi keeps complaining to me of how I add incorrect information when this user helps me with my editing with player stats. But Yowashi has to realize that he too has added incorrect information since the stats from hockey.com can be misleading. Also, I had corrected a handful of times of incorrect stats before if I am really suspicious of Yowashi's edits. There is one more thing that does not seem to be necessary for Yowashi to say is reordering stats to most points to least should always happen after I add in the team stats from the recap game. Their is no such difference if I did not reorganize the stats to most points to least. It can be done anytime. NicholasHui (talk) 11:04am, 22 February 2019 (PT)
These are the teams I edit with Yowashi are the 2018-19 season pages for Vancouver Canucks, Calgary Flames, Edmonton Oilers, Winnipeg Jets, Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal Canadiens.
- NicholasHui Its not quite clear what the problem is. Can you provide diffs of the specific problem? If this is a problem involving Yowashi, you must notify them on their talk page using {{subst:ANI-notice}}--~~~~ Edit: I have notified Yowashi, but in the future you MUST notify users. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:54, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ottawa Senators has been clearly overlooked.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- As posted on my talk page by Yowashi Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 22:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC) : "Hello CaptainEek. This is just a response to the message that you had left me on my talk page. I am a regular contributor to the National Hockey League's teams season pages. Since October, NicholasHui has been persistently adding inaccurate information in regards to a player's point total located in the player statistics section. I will refer to this page 2018–19 Edmonton Oilers season, as one of the examples. I had informed NicholasHui about them not adding accurate information in regards to the player statistics. I find that their information is often incorrect, which leads to me having to correct the information that they have provided. I have told them to stop adding incorrect information on their talk page and also within the page's history log. However, they continue to add information from either no source, or poor sources. I told them to use this website, (Statistics), as it includes all of the player statistics from every National Hockey League team, and is also the most reliable source. This is only the first issue. A second issue that this user is also involved in, is that they are unable to reorganize the player statistics section, which is supposed to be organized from a player's point total (most points to least points, or in other words, top to bottom) system. This user occasionally refuses to reorganize the statistics section based on most points to least. For example, in the player statistics section, under "Pts", one player will have a total of ten points, while another would have eleven points. The player with eleven points would be positioned underneath the player with ten points. This is supposed to be vice versa. The editor refuses to reposition the players based on which player has more points. I had also discussed this situation to the editor, but they still occasionally refuse to do as I have told them. Another user like Sabbatino also discussed this issue with NicholasHui when he was using his former account Portmannfire. I honestly don't know why he is complaining about me when I am the one that is trying to fix his persistent errors. Please visit the Edmonton Oilers page that I had provided you with earlier in this message, so that you will have an understanding of what I am talking about. If any clarification is needed, please feel free to contact me. Just a reminder, I do correct the errors that NicholasHui makes. So if you don't see any physical evidence, just know that I correct the errors. Yowashi (talk) 22:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)"
- As a reminder, I am not an admin, and my role on this board is merely to help with uncontroversial and routine tasks. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 22:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- As posted on my talk page by Yowashi Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 22:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC) : "Hello CaptainEek. This is just a response to the message that you had left me on my talk page. I am a regular contributor to the National Hockey League's teams season pages. Since October, NicholasHui has been persistently adding inaccurate information in regards to a player's point total located in the player statistics section. I will refer to this page 2018–19 Edmonton Oilers season, as one of the examples. I had informed NicholasHui about them not adding accurate information in regards to the player statistics. I find that their information is often incorrect, which leads to me having to correct the information that they have provided. I have told them to stop adding incorrect information on their talk page and also within the page's history log. However, they continue to add information from either no source, or poor sources. I told them to use this website, (Statistics), as it includes all of the player statistics from every National Hockey League team, and is also the most reliable source. This is only the first issue. A second issue that this user is also involved in, is that they are unable to reorganize the player statistics section, which is supposed to be organized from a player's point total (most points to least points, or in other words, top to bottom) system. This user occasionally refuses to reorganize the statistics section based on most points to least. For example, in the player statistics section, under "Pts", one player will have a total of ten points, while another would have eleven points. The player with eleven points would be positioned underneath the player with ten points. This is supposed to be vice versa. The editor refuses to reposition the players based on which player has more points. I had also discussed this situation to the editor, but they still occasionally refuse to do as I have told them. Another user like Sabbatino also discussed this issue with NicholasHui when he was using his former account Portmannfire. I honestly don't know why he is complaining about me when I am the one that is trying to fix his persistent errors. Please visit the Edmonton Oilers page that I had provided you with earlier in this message, so that you will have an understanding of what I am talking about. If any clarification is needed, please feel free to contact me. Just a reminder, I do correct the errors that NicholasHui makes. So if you don't see any physical evidence, just know that I correct the errors. Yowashi (talk) 22:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)"
We may have a WP:Competent problem, here. GoodDay (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- So, is there anything that can be done about this situation? I'm only trying to update these pages because they barely get updated by others. In addition to that, I also want these pages to have accurate information from reliable sources, so that when these pages are visited, people are not mislead from the incorrect information that has been continuously added on these pages. Yowashi (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The individual should be blocked, if that's the only way to get through to him/her. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me but which editor are you claiming needs to be blocked? Being blocked is usually reserved for vandals or editors making disruptive edits, not good faith disagreement. If we can resolve problems by talking them out, that is preferred to blocking editors. I may not sense the nuances of this dispute but it seems like this is an issue that needs discussion to be resolved, not a problem that is resolved by blocking editors from making productive edits. LizRead! Talk! 04:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Been around the 'pedia for going on 14 years & I'm quite keen on spotting intentional and (in this case) non-intentional troublesome editors, such as NicholasHui. But, by all means, try it your suggested way. GoodDay (talk) 05:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The point here is that there is an editor making disruptive and unproductive edits, and such editors are blocked all the time if they refuse to stop doing so, the purity of their motives notwithstanding. (May I also humbly ask upon which basis you believe that the dispute is resolvable, if you don't understand it?) Ravenswing 19:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me but which editor are you claiming needs to be blocked? Being blocked is usually reserved for vandals or editors making disruptive edits, not good faith disagreement. If we can resolve problems by talking them out, that is preferred to blocking editors. I may not sense the nuances of this dispute but it seems like this is an issue that needs discussion to be resolved, not a problem that is resolved by blocking editors from making productive edits. LizRead! Talk! 04:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- The individual should be blocked, if that's the only way to get through to him/her. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- So, is there anything that can be done about this situation? I'm only trying to update these pages because they barely get updated by others. In addition to that, I also want these pages to have accurate information from reliable sources, so that when these pages are visited, people are not mislead from the incorrect information that has been continuously added on these pages. Yowashi (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
More than one user wrote to NicholasHui (aka Portmannfire) making suggestions. I am not particularly involved with him, because I just started ignoring him as I have better things to edit. However, I am some times watching the conflict between these two users. The problem is that NicholasHui updates the statistics by making the calculations himself when he was advised to wait for the NHL to update them in their website. In addition, statistics are usually updated once a week so that just creates unneeded conflicts (this applies to both users involved). – Sabbatino (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) This is another example of why Wikipedia should stop trying to have sports statistics in articles. For every sport, there are one or more websites that have the "official" or best statistics. We could just link to those websites in our articles. But no, we insist on copying this ever-changing information, by hand, resulting in endless battles, for no good reason at all. We ought to be writing an encyclopedia, not a sports almanac. In an article about an athelete, we don't need to know how many points they scored last week. Leviv ich 17:13, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- While I'm sure this advice is lost on those editors who insist on doing things their way, the rest of the world be damned, we are not in a race here. The Cabal does not hand out gold stars for your forehead for being the first to make an edit, nor are parades organized for those who scoop the world. If, as it appears, NicholasHui is editing these articles in near-to-real time based on personal observations, that's just as illegitimate as if he were editing election articles based on CNN's coverage. Reliable sources exist and should be used, in all cases. If they're not "immediately up to date," who cares? Ravenswing 19:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, can NicholasHui be dealt with please? Their latest contributions on the 2018–19 Edmonton Oilers season, and 2018–19 Vancouver Canucks season articles are clear indications that they are not capable of editing these types of articles. The information that they have added do not match up with any information from an official source. As Sabbatino mentioned, they update the information by making their own calculations instead of obtaining it from an actual source. Also, the positioning of the players in the players statistics section on the Edmonton Oilers article are also not in order once again. As I have said before, I have informed NicholasHui, along with other people, the protocols of updating that section of these articles, and they still have not gotten the memo. This situation needs to be looked into because it has gotten ridiculous in my opinion. Yowashi (talk) 06:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd ask everyone to review WP:LIVESCORES please; I am unsure why it is within the Snooker WikiProject when it has universal application. Basically, do NOT live update - wait until a match has finished and reliable sources have been updated to verify the stats. GiantSnowman 11:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Universal application is not the same as universal acceptance. And sometimes it's a more manageable task to gain a local consensus than dealing with too many cooks in the kitchen. On the positive side, if Snooker project is having success with this, other projects could choose to adopt it as well.—Bagumba (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- We already have at WP:FOOTBALL... GiantSnowman 12:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Generally the hockey project does follow something similar, we don't update player page stats until the season itself is over. However, I don't think we have ever codified anything for stats while a game is being played for pages like team season pages. I think its always just been treated as a best practice not to race to update stuff until its finalized. -DJSasso (talk) 12:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: Just curious, was it a conscious adoption of LIVESCORES in WP:FOOTBALL, or did it just work out that existing practices mirrored LIVESCORES? And is it written within the project, or a silent understanding?—Bagumba (talk) 13:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: - we had (and, still have) numerous over-zealous IPs who insist on updating games played/goals scored as soon as a match starts - causing confusion & incorrect stats as editors unwittingly 'add' a match when it has already been added... GiantSnowman 13:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's a given that typically unregistered or newbit editors not aware of prior consensus are going to do their own thing. The concession might be to live with updates at a half, quarter, period, etc. if they were correct (not necessarily cited). Barring that, the page should be protected.—Bagumba (talk) 13:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: - we had (and, still have) numerous over-zealous IPs who insist on updating games played/goals scored as soon as a match starts - causing confusion & incorrect stats as editors unwittingly 'add' a match when it has already been added... GiantSnowman 13:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- We already have at WP:FOOTBALL... GiantSnowman 12:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Universal application is not the same as universal acceptance. And sometimes it's a more manageable task to gain a local consensus than dealing with too many cooks in the kitchen. On the positive side, if Snooker project is having success with this, other projects could choose to adopt it as well.—Bagumba (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
I knew how to reorder the Player stats to most points to least since Yowashi has showed me how that works. But every time when I update the player stats, I wouldn't reorder it. What I mean is that it does not have to be reordered to most points to least unless if the regular/playoff season is finalized, then we can reorder the player stats to most points to least. Its not even a big rush. The most important thing when we update player stats on hockey teams is to get the numbers for goals, assists, points, plus/minus rating and Goalie's Goals against average accurately. NicholasHui (talk) 21:57, 27 February 2019 (PT)
- I suspect that english isn't your first language, as your posts are at times difficult to read. Also, you refusal to STOP updating those articles until matters are settled, is quite annoying. GoodDay (talk) 14:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
English is my first language. I had been updating NHL Canadian Teams since September 2015. Also, list to me what you think I was disruptive in editing. NicholasHui (talk) 9:26, 28 February 2019 (PT
- You're MESSING UP the rankings. STOP updating the articles, until this ANI matter is resolved. GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Boomerang proposal
(Non-administrator comment) It appears that filer User:NicholasHui may be the larger part of the problem here, and that this issue needs to be wrapped up. Propose that this boomerang on filer, with either:
1. Warning to use only reliable sources, not update sports articles in real time, and follow all relevant MOS guidelines, or risk being blocked.
2. Topic ban on sports articles
3. Block
- Neutral as proposer. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am unclear of what this is asking. Is it asking me to choose one of these three options to go in effect? Option one definitely will not work, as NicholasHui has been warned numerous times about these protocols, and they still refuse to follow the procedure given to them. Option two may work, as the statistics section of these articles are claimed to be updated only once a week. Therefore, there is no use for it even being in the articles. Option three may be the best solution for this situation. Yowashi (talk) 20:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd go with a Topic ban, to see if it'll have any positive effect. GoodDay (talk) 01:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @GoodDay: What does that mean exactly? Does that mean removing the players statistics section entirely from an article? I have never been involved in a situation like this before, so I am pretty much new to all this. Yowashi (talk) 01:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- It means that NicholasHui would no longer be allowed to edit sports articles. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarification. Now, how would the topic ban go into effect? Would they no longer be allowed to edit sports articles if they continue to their disruptive editing? Or, would it go into effect immediately due to all the complaints, if approved by an admin? Yowashi (talk) 03:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- It means that NicholasHui would no longer be allowed to edit sports articles. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @GoodDay: What does that mean exactly? Does that mean removing the players statistics section entirely from an article? I have never been involved in a situation like this before, so I am pretty much new to all this. Yowashi (talk) 01:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Topic ban: especially given that NicholasHui is still editing these articles outside of reliable sources even given this ANI complaint. Ravenswing 04:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, as of the late stages of February 24th, NicholasHui continues to provide information outside of any reliable source. Their latest contribution being on the 2018–19 Winnipeg Jets season article. Another user has since corrected the information that NicholasHui had provided, but I don't think that should hide the fact that NicholasHui believes that they can still do whatever they want on these articles. I don't think that NicholasHui is following this discussion, hence why they are continuing to make disruptive edits. I think now is the right time to take action and put an end to this conflict, rather than later. It just depends on what others involved in this discussion believe what the right choice is. Yowashi (talk) 06:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Just to know that if they think I manually calculate the player statistics for Canadian teams, the information I assumed other users that edit wikipedia statistics immediately after the game ends comes from the recap game they played. I noticed that after updating the players statistics, Yowashi has fixed some of the information I put. So I don't know why they think I am the bigger problem. Their were times that I fixed some errors on the Player Statistics if I get suspicious of what Yowashi puts on the stats. Sometimes, I may use the official team stats if I am sure I had made some mistakes.
The examples of the mistakes I found are listed below
December 16, 2018: Forgetting to add assists on Jacob Markstrom's stats on Vancouver Canucks 2018-19 season. (That was my mistake)
December 31, 2018: James Neal's 3 goals plus 6 assists equals 7 points instead should have been 4 assists which was my own mistake that time
February 2, 2019: Oliver Kylington should have plus/minus rating as 1 when its was instead 2. I corrected by having a combination of separate windows having the wikipedia stats, player nhl.com stats and the recap team stats to correct the mistake.
February 12, 2019, (Maple Leafs) Patrick Marleau's assists were not updated when they beated Colorado Avalanche
February 14, 2019: Connor Mcdavid's assist stats should have been 51 assists when it was 50 instead.
NicholasHui (talk) 08:21, 25 February 2019 (PT)
- @NicholasHui For clarification: how, precisely, are you calculating/sourcing the player's stats? Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 20:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- A small block would not be the worst solution to try and get his attention, after that we can discuss a topic ban if the behaviour continues. Why can't you not simply wait until the official website has it updated? Kante4 (talk) 20:56, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Why I update it immediately after the game ends is because I had seen other user's information comes from the recap page. For example, I seen an anonymous user that updates the Ottawa Senators 2018-19 season page on Wikipedia. The information this user gets comes from the recap game. I followed this user's example ever since. Sometimes, I may use the official website if I am suspicious of my edits or somebody else's edits that were put on the Wikipedia page. NicholasHui (talk) 18:29, 25 February 2019 (PT)
- @CaptainEek: I know that you did not ask me, but I can provide some examples of NicholasHui's miscalculations. On the 2018–19 Edmonton Oilers season article, in the statistics section for the team's goaltender Mikko Koskinen, NicholasHui calculated Koskinen's TOI (time on ice) at 1961:30. An official source states that Koskinen's TOI is 1962:15. This was after the Oilers most recent game. NicholasHui also miscalculates a goaltender's GAA (goals against average) and their save percentage. For example, after one of the Oilers' games, they had calculated Koskinen's GAA at 2.88 when the official source had it 2.87. Koskinen's save percentage was also at .909 when it should have been .906. Remember, this is just a couple of examples. There have been many other occasions from the past four months where the information provided by NicholasHui is inaccurate.
- Edit: NicholasHui still has not learned how to reorganize player statistics by a player's total points. This is found on the 2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season article. Ron Hainsey supposedly has sixteen points, but is positioned above Travis Dermott, who supposedly has seventeen points. I can't confirm if these statistics are real because the statistics from a reliable source have not been updated. Again, this is not the proper procedure for updating the statistics section of these articles. Yowashi (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing Is there a time frame as to when this situation is going to be resolved? Disruptive edits are still being made on these NHL articles, and I don't think that it is ever going to stop. Can this issue please be looked into? Because I find it disturbing how NicholasHui is still able to edit these articles. Yowashi (talk) 05:11, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- So far, there seems to be very little interest in the topic, due to it being about ice hockey. You may have to get a more direct response, at WP:AN where the administrators may take a closer look. GoodDay (talk) 05:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please, no WP:FORUMSHOPping. Notification, on the other hand, would be fine if you think it's necessary. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 10:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- So far, there seems to be very little interest in the topic, due to it being about ice hockey. You may have to get a more direct response, at WP:AN where the administrators may take a closer look. GoodDay (talk) 05:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing Is there a time frame as to when this situation is going to be resolved? Disruptive edits are still being made on these NHL articles, and I don't think that it is ever going to stop. Can this issue please be looked into? Because I find it disturbing how NicholasHui is still able to edit these articles. Yowashi (talk) 05:11, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Edit: NicholasHui still has not learned how to reorganize player statistics by a player's total points. This is found on the 2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season article. Ron Hainsey supposedly has sixteen points, but is positioned above Travis Dermott, who supposedly has seventeen points. I can't confirm if these statistics are real because the statistics from a reliable source have not been updated. Again, this is not the proper procedure for updating the statistics section of these articles. Yowashi (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Uninvolved admin comment At a minimum, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution needs to be followed. Without diffs of a history of ignored warnings, or evidence of a prior consensus that an editor was made aware of but still ignored, I would not block or suggest a topic ban. If there was no prior consensus, I would recommend establishing it now, and trust that involved parties would follow it. If not, a new report with link to said consensus along with diffs of violations of consensus will make it obvious and easy to act upon. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 10:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- To be fair not sure a consensus would be needed for something obvious like not leaving players out of order in scoring ranking. That seems to me to be self evident otherwise what is the point of a ranking. There is clear disruptive editing here, however links to diffs would be nice, I do agree with that. -DJSasso (talk) 12:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I understand diffs are a pain, but editors need to understand than uninvolved admins need to be sure AGF has been exhausted. And non-sports ones might even be missing the gist of the wall of text without diffs. I edit sports, I understand that what is described can happen, I just need to be sure AGF has been fully exhausted by diffs of both consensus and repeated failures to comply. The boomerang target says they are just occasional errors. Someone will need to show it is instead consistent.—Bagumba (talk) 12:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Full disclosure I was asked to look at this thread because I am an administrator whose edits are mostly made up from editing hockey articles. Looking at the situation to me it does not appear that NicholasHui is attempting to communicate and is ignoring all attempts to do so. I think a short block would be more than appropriate to get his attention and stop situation from continuing and hopefully get him to start communicating. If that fails I would support a topic ban on updating sports statistics leaving other editing involving sports articles open to edit. -DJSasso (talk) 12:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm an otherwise uninvolved editor and User:NicholasHui is now edit warring on several articles, having reverted 3 times today. I've warned him on his talk page. I believe there may be an ownership issue, or more precisely, a belief that he can do whatever he wants and no one can object. (The content in dispute is not of concern to me, nor do I understand it. I'm simply responding to disruptive editing on NicholasHui's part. freshacconci (✉) 17:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Also note this edit here -- he copypasted my own warning to him (leaving in my own signature) and dropped it on my talk page. Clearly this editor is WP:NOTHERE. freshacconci (✉) 17:23, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Administrators PLEASE HELP
Would any administrator PLEASE help us out? GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Looks likes User:NinjaRobotPirate blocked him for violating 3RR already. -DJSasso (talk) 18:48, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTHERE editing by IP hopper
BLOCKED | |
Black Kite range blocked 60.52.50.71 for a month. Both 115.133.209.70 and 175.137.72.188 were ipblocked for a month as well. No incidents have been reported in last few days. Similarities to user Rameezraja001 have been noted. Howerever, Checkuser is not possible since account is ![]() |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 175.137.72.188 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 115.133.209.70 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 60.52.50.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Calling other editors "Nazis"
Calling other editors "Persians"
- " (...) by persian users such as Wikaviani, LouisAragon, Oshwah (...)"[151]
- "(...) the users are from persian backgrounds, i feel that as persians, they are trying to change the indian article (...)"[152]
Accusing others of bringing "Persian BS" into "Indian articles"
- "Falooda is an indian article, dont bring your BS persian nationalism in the indian article."[153]
Accusing others of "Eurocentrism" and "bigotry"
Saying that non-Europeans should stay away from Indian articles
- "(...) like the rest of all indian historic english article this article only reflects the agenda and the views of anglophone european editors (...) all non european readers are requested to avoid this article (...)"[157]
Making copy-vios
IP socking
- See IP's linked above
Edit-warring
These IP's are all operated by the same person. Same geo-location,[162]-[163]-[164] same concerns (pro-Indian stance, trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by whatever means), same target articles, etc. One of his IPs, "175.137.72.188", was blocked for edit-warring on 13 February by Bishonen, unfortunately to no avail, for he continued with the exact same disruptive editorial pattern as soon as the block ended.[165] Whoever "operates" these IP's ran out of WP:ROPE long ago. Looking at the compelling evidence, whoever operates these IP's is clearly not here to build this encyclopedia. Pinging Doug Weller and Ian.thomson as they are aware of this disruption. A range block might be needed. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- 60.52.50.71 is in quite a big range, 60.52.0.0/18, but there's nothing but vandalism (presumably the same user) from this range during this month. I have blocked the range for a month.
- 115.133.209.70 is in 175.133.0.0/16, and there's some other traffic here. This might be more tricky, so I have just blocked the IP.
- 175.137.72.188 is the only IP to have edited from its range, so this can be blocked simply again, and I have done so.
- Please let me know, or post here, about future issues. Black Kite (talk) 17:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: Thanks, will do. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Comment. The reported IPs and their behavior are very similar to blocked user Rameezraja001 (talk · contribs). They all could be same person. --Wario-Man (talk) 21:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Wario-Man: Yeah, that's what I thought as well.[166] - LouisAragon (talk) 22:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Born2cycle yet again
No admin action warranted at the moment but concerned parties urged to read the feedback they received in this thread and consider how the situation could have been handled better. Abecedare (talk) 17:50, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Born2cycle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) doesn't seem to do much other than dick about with page names. There has been endless drama about this, for example with repeat WP:IDHT move requests on Sarah Jane Brown (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views). The latest one was to move MMR vaccine and autism to MMR-autism myth then rapidly to MMR–autism myth (with an n-dash) in response to an RM to move it to, and I shit you not here, "?", whose only input notes that there is no consensus as to what "?" should be.
At some point we are going to need to ban Born2cycle from all discussions and actions relating to page moves, because the evidence to date shows that he considers himself to be the sole arbiter and authority of what article names should be. Guy (Help!) 09:55, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Are you going to provide any specific diffs or links to this evidence? Or is this just an unfocused rant? I'm particularly interested in any diffs showing where he claims to be "sole arbiter and authority". -- Netoholic @ 10:24, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) The RM should be re-opened so an actual consensus can be formed instead of taking this back to the dramaboards. If you can't do that, then maybe an IBAN is needed between the 2 of you. Iffy★Chat -- 10:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- How about we ban you first Guy? You ignored the long rename discussion on that article, which had specifically rejected the MMR vaccine and autism name as too likely to promote Wakefield's believers, then you renamed it to that ("per talk", when it was anything but), all on your own.
- This is a good rename. And even if it isn't, if consensus wants to choose something better, then it's certainly a GF one, and IMHO a large improvement too. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- As to the other article (and if you're going to harangue another editor at ANI, bring diffs), then the nearest comment I can find is a year-old talk: comment: 7 March 2018. But then I don't follow Dr Who stuff, so maybe there's some project talk or other article I've missed. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:43, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think you're confusing Sarah Brown with Sarah Jane Smith. This confusion would never have happened if Sarah Brown's article title wasn't such a blatant violation of WP:COMMONNAME, by the way. Iffy★Chat -- 10:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe Guy could ask Born2cycle to move it and sort it out? They seem good at picking sensible article names. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe Born2cycle could butt out because this is a large discussion over multiple pages with numerous editors who, unliek Born2cycle, are clueful about the content area and Born2cycle's "good at picking sensible article names" translates into years-long disruption and WP:BLUDGEONing in any case where anybody dares to disagree with him. Guy (Help!) 11:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Andy Dingley: If you spent 15 seconds reading the debates on the talk page, you'd have seen that I am working diligently with others to ensure we choose the correct name, and the temporary change I did make was to reflect an overwhelming consensus that the previous name was wrong in a way that gave undue weight to fringe views. Guy(Help!) 11:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- So what exactly is your issue with B2C's moves here? Is it that he interpreted the consensus incorrectly, or that he was the one who did the page moves? Iffy★Chat -- 11:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem was the usual one: Born2cycle deciding to be the arbiter and enforcer of what constitutes the "correct" title, in a complex case where there is ongoing discussion and nontrivial dissent, and especially given that he has previous with me over other articles where he obsesses over the title. Check the archives of this page for his username: obsessive page naming drama is his thing. Guy(Help!) 13:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
deciding to be the arbiter and enforcer of what constitutes the "correct" title, in a complex case where there is ongoing discussion and nontrivial dissent
is precisely the job that RM closers do when they're determing consensus at RM discussions. There had been plenty of discussion before the RM opened and no comments for 5 days, suggesting that the RM was ripe for closure after it was open for 7 days (he was a bit early with the close but that isn't a big issue). Once again, is your problem here that B2C got the consensus wrong, or is it that that you have a personal problem with B2C? Iffy★Chat -- 13:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem was the usual one: Born2cycle deciding to be the arbiter and enforcer of what constitutes the "correct" title, in a complex case where there is ongoing discussion and nontrivial dissent, and especially given that he has previous with me over other articles where he obsesses over the title. Check the archives of this page for his username: obsessive page naming drama is his thing. Guy(Help!) 13:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- You picked a name, "Andrew Wakefield discovered The Truth between MMR vaccine and autism" that was a shoo-in for giving weight to fringe views, and that the only evident consensus on that talk: page had been to reject it on that basis. But of course, you did your own thing instead. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, the original title was MMR autism controversy. That's the one people have resoundingly rejected. Your characterisation of MMR vaccine and autism as "Andrew Wakefield discovered The Truth between MMR vaccine and autism" is sufficiently insane that it doesn't rise to the level of a personal attack: there may be one or two editors less likely to use the words you ascribe to me there, but no more than that. None of the others has unambiguous support, though I have floated several suggestions and attempted to weigh support and opposition for each. See Talk:MMR vaccine and autism § Name. The MR was raised with no actual target title, so should not have been actioned, especially by an editor with a long history of tendentious move discussions and an equally long history of disputes with me, given that I am the one currently leading the effort to achieve a correct consensus for the final name of the article. But, you know, you could always read the talk page, where all this is laid out and where the lack of consensus for a specific title is also identified. Guy(Help!) 13:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- So what exactly is your issue with B2C's moves here? Is it that he interpreted the consensus incorrectly, or that he was the one who did the page moves? Iffy★Chat -- 11:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Questions for the filer: There are some relevant items that seem to be missing from the report. I think it would be elucidating if these questions were answered:
- Who proposed changing the title of this page in the first place and on what date?
- In response to that discussion, what new title(s) was/were most commonly !supported?
- Who closed the "Move to ?" request and how soon after it was opened?
- When was the page move(s) in question made? What were the actual, exact moved-to titles?
- Who moved the page back to the original? Why isn't that a sufficient resolution to this problem?
- What efforts were made to discuss this move on the page mover's talk page or the article talk page before filing this report?
- For my part, I'd recommend B2C not spend any time discussing this matter here unless someone asks him to join. The rest of the community can sort this one out. Levivich 14:19, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I see some of the answers at a glance, there was a general discussion on how to reach consensus, and there was a 'procedural' open and close. B2C was reported as moving the page, I didn't check, but the user appears here a lot and needs little introduction; it does sound like the regular reports on that users approach to page titles. cygnis insignis 14:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Actually this is only the second time he's been reported to ANI since he was unblocked last summer. Not a frequent flier anymore. Levivich 14:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is good of you to note that. cygnis insignis 14:56, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Let me also note that last time the report was about excessive commenting in move discussions, not disruptively moving pages, and there wasn't consensus for anything beyond a warning. If someone wants to say that an editor is disruptively moving pages, then diffs, please. Leviv ich 15:11, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is good of you to note that. cygnis insignis 14:56, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Actually this is only the second time he's been reported to ANI since he was unblocked last summer. Not a frequent flier anymore. Levivich 14:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- The page log is here and seems to accord with what Guy has already described. cygnis insignis 14:42, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I see some of the answers at a glance, there was a general discussion on how to reach consensus, and there was a 'procedural' open and close. B2C was reported as moving the page, I didn't check, but the user appears here a lot and needs little introduction; it does sound like the regular reports on that users approach to page titles. cygnis insignis 14:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether the close was good or bad, this was a long, complex and possibly controversial naming discussion and really needed an admin, or at least an experienced editor familiar with the issues involved, to close it. B2C was not that person. Black Kite (talk) 14:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- As an admin, Guy can undo any NAC, such as B2C's, there's certainly no problem with that. But I disagree about "regardless of whether the close was good or bad"... if it was a good close, there's really no reason to post to ANI, is there? If it was a bad close, there's still no reason to post to ANI–we have move review for that, don't we? If it's a chronic, intractable problem with moves, well, let's see the diffs of problematic moves? ("Where's the diffs?" is the same exact argument I made last time; the result was no sanction. It seems we're here again.)
- How many moves overall in February, and how many were "bad" moves? What's the error rate? Because we don't take editors to ANI for making one bad move. Or even two.
-
By the way, as a technical matter, I don't see B2C closing anything, just making a bold move.And as I understand it, the proper response to a bold move is to revert it (which happened) and which should settle the matter as long as there isn't a move-war happening (which there isn't). Hence my question #5 and #6 above. Levivich 14:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- As WP:INVOLVED, Guy should stay well away from it. Especially now. He opened the rename discussion (from MMR vaccine controversy). MMR vaccine and autism was presented as one of his options at that time and it did not garner support from others. There was no clear favourite, but there was broad support for negative terms like "conspiracy", "hoax" and "myth". He took part in that discussion. He renamed other articles to remove "controversies" from their names, whilst this discussion was still running. Guy did not follow this when he closed that discussion and moved it to a name which conspicuously avoided any such critical term. That's pretty close to INVOLVED already and (IMHO) a very poor judgement of the consensus. As UnequivocalAmbivalence put it, " It would be like if we re-named "9/11 conspiracy theories" to "Alternate 9/11 theories". It's a neutral title, but it gives false parity. "
- To continue past that point, and in their attitude and behaviour towards B2C here in particular, that's well past INVOLVED. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- By your interpretation of INVOLVED, he is and is not to permitted be involved any more? cygnis insignis 16:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- He's welcome to discuss and advocate or to make the final appraisal and judgement of others' comments. But not both.
- Mostly though, I see his first close as wrong in its conclusion more than the way it was arrived at: other editors favoured the use of a negative term to describe something that they (myself included) saw as false pseudoscience. The 'neutral' [sic] presentation of 'MMR vaccine and autism' (and its easy incorporation into a presentation as if there's a link) is quite opposite to this.
- He called for a discussion, he presented some options, and when other editors ignored his 'right' answer, he imposed it anyway. That's textbook INVOLVED. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me being blunt and stating what we all well know: That is the about the discussion itself, not this incident, which is about B2Cs bold close and move. If there is a grievance about the poster own actions, their 'involvement', shouldn't that a be separate discussion? This discussion follows every other discussion about B2C contributions on page titles, clearly the last one was not the end of it. cygnis insignis 16:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- If Guy wants to see this ANI thread as being solely about B2C, then that's fine. But: if he's already INVOLVED, he's still INVOLVED. So that restricts his advocacy of particular names. This thread has to stay narrowly on B2C's behavioural issues, and whether they breach anything that ANI should concern itself about. Now I'm not seeing that. Not for their choice of name, not for the trivia of some typos or at most a topic-neutral MOS issue, certainly not for some unspecified high crimes and misdemeanours on unrelated pages, for which we're still waiting on diffs. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me being blunt and stating what we all well know: That is the about the discussion itself, not this incident, which is about B2Cs bold close and move. If there is a grievance about the poster own actions, their 'involvement', shouldn't that a be separate discussion? This discussion follows every other discussion about B2C contributions on page titles, clearly the last one was not the end of it. cygnis insignis 16:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- To be clear here, B2C moved MMR vaccine and autism -> MMR-autism myth. -> MMR-autism myth -> MMR–autism myth, after I left them a talk page message pointing out their careless move (without any kind of consensus as to what the title should be) to a title with an inappropriate hyphen and a period at the end. Natureium (talk) 15:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Natureium: The second move (removing the period) and the third move (hyphen to dash) appeared to have been in direct response to your talk page post here: [167]. When I saw your post, I thought you wanted him to move it again to remove the period and change the hyphen to a dash. I imagine he thought so too. I see the second and third move as attempts to comply with community feedback (from you), not ignoring or thwarting it. The first move and close may have been out of order, I grant you, but I note you did not say "move it back". Admittedly, nor did you say "move it again". But speaking as one reader of what you posted, I interpreted your post as telling him he was being a bit too bold but that he should clean up his mess, i.e., move it again. Levivich 15:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Levivich, What I wanted was for B2C to not move pages without consensus. I wasn't going to move-war, so I figured the least he could do was fix his mess, but that could have been done in one move rather than two. If someone doesn't understand title conventions (period, hyphen), they shouldn't be moving pages. Natureium (talk) 15:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Natureium, you're not wrong–don't move without consensus, be careful when making moves. Here's what I see happened, and this is putting everything in the worst possible light against B2C:
- He jumped the gun and made a close and move where there was no clear consensus yet
- In making that move, he used a hyphen instead of a dash, and had an extraneous period
- He fixed #2 with two moves instead of one
- Let's see how this ANI report characterized it:
[B2C] doesn't seem to do much other than dick about with page names.
– That's terrible; nobody should be characterizing anybody else's editing as "dicking about".There has been endless drama about this, for example with repeat WP:IDHT move requests on Sarah Jane Brown.
– Bringing up shit from long ago, as we always do with B2C.The latest one...
– When was the last problematic move?...was to move MMR vaccine and autism to MMR-autism myth...
– in response to a move discussion that the filer started, but we left that part out.....then rapidly to MMR–autism myth (with an n-dash)
– in response to a request to do so on his talk page, which means rapid is good, but we left that part out...in response to an RM to move it to, and I shit you not here, "?", whose only input notes that there is no consensus as to what "?" should be.
– following a long discussion about titles, but we left that part out...At some point we are going to need to ban Born2cycle from all discussions and actions relating to page moves, because the evidence to date shows that he considers himself to be the sole arbiter and authority of what article names should be.
– Really, that's what the evidence shows? Here's a post from B2C on the article talk page:Whatever the community wants; my role here is at your service.
But we left that part out.
- The ANI report makes it out as if B2C is just like "fuck y'all, I'm moving it where I want to!" when in fact, it's obvious he's trying to effectuate consensus, not thwart it, and he's trying to respond to complaints, not ignore them. If he fucked up one move, that's out of how many other moves? What's his "completion rating"? We don't take people to ANI for one mistake. Damnit. And we just had this discussion a few weeks ago. It's very frustrating to see another jump-the-gun unfounded ANI report against B2C. And that's all I have to say about that. Leviv ich 16:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Natureium, you're not wrong–don't move without consensus, be careful when making moves. Here's what I see happened, and this is putting everything in the worst possible light against B2C:
- Levivich, What I wanted was for B2C to not move pages without consensus. I wasn't going to move-war, so I figured the least he could do was fix his mess, but that could have been done in one move rather than two. If someone doesn't understand title conventions (period, hyphen), they shouldn't be moving pages. Natureium (talk) 15:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Natureium: The second move (removing the period) and the third move (hyphen to dash) appeared to have been in direct response to your talk page post here: [167]. When I saw your post, I thought you wanted him to move it again to remove the period and change the hyphen to a dash. I imagine he thought so too. I see the second and third move as attempts to comply with community feedback (from you), not ignoring or thwarting it. The first move and close may have been out of order, I grant you, but I note you did not say "move it back". Admittedly, nor did you say "move it again". But speaking as one reader of what you posted, I interpreted your post as telling him he was being a bit too bold but that he should clean up his mess, i.e., move it again. Levivich 15:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dude, check the archives. This is someone who takes pride in pursuing move requests for years until he finally gets the answer he wants. Check the talk page archives at Sarah Jane Brown. Guy (Help!) 22:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I see that Samsara has just fully move-protected the page. When the issue is with a single editor, shouldn't the solution to be to block that editor, rather than to protect the page from everyone? Natureium (talk) 15:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I judge the vaccine debate to be an area of conflict sensu arbitration committee. Samsara 15:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- They've only move-protected it. It is still semi-protected from normal editing, as it was before, so registered editors can still edit. Black Kite (talk) 16:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
I was just trying to help. In case anyone missed it, here was my closing statement:
The result of the move request was: Moved to MMR-autism myth. As far as I can tell there strong consensus for a change, no clear consensus on any particular title, but this is the best choice at least for right now based on the discussion above. If anyone gives me good reason on my talk page to revert this close and reopen, I'd be happy to do so. But I'm hoping everyone agrees this is the most reasonable choice. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 01:55, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
[168]
Unfortunately, I also fat-fingered the move by grabbing the period after the title in (the rendered version of) the closing statement, and I used an dash instead of an en-dash, so had to fix those two errors. I do a lot of closes and this is the first time I've made this kind of error. I was ready to revert but nobody had complained before I left. If JzG had just left a request to revert, I would have done so. I'll stay out of it now. --В²C☎ 18:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem is that
no clear consensus on any particular title, but this is the best choice at least for right now
is not how things work. You don't move a page just to move it. The best choice "for right now" is for a page to stay at the title that it's at until there is a consensus to move it to another title. There's no rush to move pages (barring clearly inappropriate titles). Natureium (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2019 (UTC)- Please review WP:THREEOUTCOMES:
There are rare circumstances where multiple names have been proposed and no consensus arises out of any, except that it is determined that the current title should not host the article. In these difficult circumstances, the closer should pick the best title of the options available, and then be clear that while consensus has rejected the former title (and no request to bring it back should be made lightly), there is no consensus for the title actually chosen. If anyone objects to the closer's choice, they may make another move request immediately, hopefully to its final resting place.
- Again, I was just trying to help in a difficult situation. Was it better to leave it at the current title? Maybe. But I think good arguments can be made on both sides. I thought consensus against the current title was clear, and this was at worst a step in a better direction. --В²C☎ 18:39, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was trying to help...
- So was Cecilia Gimenez.
- ...this was at worst a step in a better direction
- I was trying to help...
- Please review WP:THREEOUTCOMES:
- The problem is that
- I have generally shared JzG's exasperation with B2C's general approach, but in this case I don't really see anything really problematic. Sure, it was a NAC close on a controversial topic, but that was certainly easily undone. We all view other editors' actions thru a filter of our prior experiences with them, but we have to be careful the filter isn't too strong. This was not ANI-worthy, Guy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is very exasperating. Just a few weeks after another ANI against B2C which found no actual wrongdoing, and yet here we are again. There was no attempt was made by JzG to discuss the close itself with B2C, or request it be reversed, which would likely have been granted. And admins aren't automatically permitted to reverse non-admin closures with no other process, particularly when WP:INVOLVED as the nominator of the RM. I have no opinion on the validity of B2C's close itself, perhaps there was no consensus, but there is no way this should have come to ANI when none of the usual options mentioned at WP:MRV, including discussion with the closer, had been pursued first. A WP:TROUT is due for JzG, and please try to get along with your fellow editors in future rather than being confrontational like this. — Amakuru (talk) 19:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Which is not a little confrontational in itself. The idea that the last discussion found 'no actual wrong-doing' is not accurate, as I recall it there was no middle ground between blocking the user or not. This was an earnest and protracted discussion that was interjected by someone who does not recognise the disruption they cause, have caused here, for was "at worst a step in a better direction" according them. B2C does not care that this is a hot-button topic, this is about his cloistered view on page titles: a constant recycling of some move discussion a lifetime ago that did not go his way. What the people involved in the article think is irrelevant to the move mongers' mindsets, those are uninvolved bystanders made hopelessly bias by sources rather than their sure and certain opinion, there to witness their ongoing debates, petulant power struggles, and bloody-minded game-playing. cygnis insignis 20:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Amakuru is correct, the situation is exasperating. It's completely and totally exasperating that Born2Cycle has been doing the same damn stuff for over 10 years and continues to get away with doing it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:45, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Best to just close this. JzG should have asked B2C to reopen the close before bringing it here and using past ANI reports as a bludgeon is not a good idea. Someone has to close RMs and, in my experience, B2C is very willing to reopen a discussion if there are objections (cf. [169]) and that's already 90% of what we should ask from any discussion closer.--regentspark (comment) 21:13, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: Warn JzG to comply with WP:INVOLVED
Despite being very involved in the discussion at Talk:MMR_vaccine_and_autism, JzG engaged in the following actions contrary to WP:INVOLVED (editors should not act as administrators in disputed cases in which they have been involved.
):
- Reverted the close and move instead of following process. Step 1 at Wikipedia:Move_review#Steps_to_list_a_new_review_request: make the request on closer's talk page. [170]
- Used admin rights to revert a move (because of errors, the previous title, now a redirect, had multiple edits and required admin rights to overwrite for a revert of the move) [171]
- Closed the discussion in violation of WP:RMCLOSE#Conflicts_of_interest as well as WP:INVOLVED. [172]
I think the whole point of WP:INVOLVED is an involved admin might not be as objective as they would normally be in a given situation, and they should seek out another uninvolved admin to actually act as admins for whatever it is they feel needs to be done. What happened here is a great example of what happens when this is ignored. I don't doubt that Guy was acting in good faith, but he crossed a line that I believe is important to the health of the project for admins to not cross. I feel a warning from the community would be beneficial because as long as INVOLVED admins keep crossing the line without consequences, they are going to keep doing it, which is harmful to the project in many ways. --В²C ☎ 21:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Really? You made a series of bad judgments and now you want to warn the admin who cleaned up the mess? I suggest you drop it. Bradv🍁 22:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I fixed the mess you made. You're welcome. Guy(Help!) 22:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I had already cleaned the "mess". You didn't clean up any mess. All you did was revert the close and move that I would have gladly reverted myself had you asked on my talk page per normal processes, as I even stated I would in my closing statement there. You were INVOLVED, and used a hammer when only a pencil was needed. --В²C☎ 22:14, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I would have gladly reverted myself had you asked on my talk page per normal processes
- Given your track record of obstinate WP:IDHT behavior, no, I don't believe that. --CaltonTalk 13:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Calton, are you not aware of the other closes I’ve reverted upon request? That this was an unusual situation and so I explicitly stated I would revert upon request in the closing statement? This could have been easily resolved with such a request, but instead INVOLVED Guy went with heavy-handed reverts and this ANI, but I’m the one creating the drama? —В²C ☎ 17:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I had already cleaned the "mess". You didn't clean up any mess. All you did was revert the close and move that I would have gladly reverted myself had you asked on my talk page per normal processes, as I even stated I would in my closing statement there. You were INVOLVED, and used a hammer when only a pencil was needed. --В²C☎ 22:14, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. There's no sense in escalating this any further in either direction. I suggest this whole thread be closed per regentspark comment above and we can move on with our lives. — Amakuru (talk) 22:21, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, this thread should be closed once the RM is re-opened. If these 2 users keep antagonising each other, then an IBAN may be needed in the future, but I'm willing to assume good faith right now, and so should everyone else. Iffy★Chat -- 22:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - Born2Cycle has consistently shown very poor judgement, and should never close a RM discussion under any circumstances, ever. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Would someone please ping me when an indef of B2C is proposed? Johnuniq (talk) 00:45, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Johnuniq, would you go for 'no close or move' or just the simple option? cygnis insignis 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- What an offer! It seems mean to indef a well-meaning person who probably has done some useful things mixed in with all the disruption but the real problem is the difficulty of demonstrating a problem when it simply involves bad judgment and wasting time. I'm afraid we will have to wait for a new problem to arise and for someone with the patience to prepare a case. However, the possibility of a bold indef is always there, and it might stick. My comment was really intended to let B2C know that they have to learn how to avoid trouble. Johnuniq (talk) 06:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Johnuniq, would you go for 'no close or move' or just the simple option? cygnis insignis 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- You-have-got-to-be-fucking-kidding oppose. It's not an WP:INVOLVED, he was fixing B2C's uninformed parachuting-in. This is just further evidence that B2C shouldn't be involved in moves and ABSOLUTELY should not be making them. --Calton Talk 13:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - I'm not going to put a bolded support beside this, but JzG, you should have known better than to escalate in this situation. You were clearly involved, and B2C's series of bad moves was not quite an "any admin would do the same" situation. You didn't try to discuss it with him at all despite his explicit note that he was open to discussion, you didn't try move review, you just came straight here to rattle the sabres. I'm not saying B2C was right, he wasn't (someone should have linked to WP:SUPERVOTE by now), but in my view your actions made a bad situation worse. That's kind of what WP:INVOLVED is all about. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- The point remains: B2C is primarily associated with page move drama. Guy(Help!) 14:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- The point remains: B2C is primarily associated with creating page move drama. cygnis insignis 16:54, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose and speedily close as a diversion. --DBigXrayᗙ 17:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose this giant nothing-burger. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose JzG acted appropriately, and suggest that B2C duck, because his boomerang is coming back around... --Jayron32 17:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Could I borrow a few eyeballs on The Old Man & the Gun?
Eyeball request filled. Editors lending eyeballs were repaid with lip. Levivich 23:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think a glance through the recent edits there, and on my talk page, would be more useful than cherry-picked links. Qwirkle (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Looking over the recent opposing edits [173][174], the root of the issue seems to be a lack of reliable sourcing for the proposed content. This could easily be resolved by adding sources to support your viewpoint instead of bringing it to ANI. –dlthewave☎ 20:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Looks like a run-of-the-mill content dispute, perhaps better served by posting at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, or giving WP:DR a read through. Doesn't appear to be urgent, chronic, nor intractable (at least not yet unless I've really misread the situation); thus ill-suited for ANI. Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n! 08:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Clearly you did not look at both pages mentioned. Qwirkle (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- As I understand it, you made an edit to TOM&TG using the words "loosely based" [175]. In response Thewolfchild reverted per WP:WEASEL and that it was un-sourced. While discussion has proved...contentious perhaps, I guess I'm still not seeing the problem, as you folks seem to be currently talking it out. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 20:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- And yes, I took a look at your talk page too, where the only things of note appeared to be a 3RR warning, and a section where you broke down, in exacting detail, every part of a comment by wolf. What am I missing here? Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n! 20:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Clearly you did not look at both pages mentioned. Qwirkle (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Looks like a run-of-the-mill content dispute, perhaps better served by posting at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, or giving WP:DR a read through. Doesn't appear to be urgent, chronic, nor intractable (at least not yet unless I've really misread the situation); thus ill-suited for ANI. Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n! 08:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Interaction and topic ban appeal
Debresser has opined and, per consensus, SherrifIsInTown's topic ban on Judaism articles and the interaction ban with debresser is removed.--regentspark (comment) 21:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was banned from editing a topic and banned from interacting with an editor almost four months ago. Further details about the ban including the related topic and the editor can be seen here. The ban was issued due to my wiki hounding that editor, demanding sources for unsourced content and removing any unsourced content for which sources did not exist inside the articles. I repeatedly regretted the behavior but was still issued these bans.
In last four months, I have refrained from any of these behaviors i.e. I did not hound any editor and tried not to remove unsourced content from any articles which I am allowed to edit and if needed placed “citation needed” tags for any content which was not sourced or poorly sourced.
The incident of wikihounding was only the first incident in my five years of editing life thus I request this topic ban and interaction ban to be lifted as it imposes unnecessary restrictions on my editing. Sheriff ☎ 911 19:59, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging @AGK: and @Debresser:, the admin who imposed the bans and the editor on the other side of the i-ban. I'll notify both on ther talk pages just to be safe. People should keep in mind that Debresser is not i-banned from SIIT, so they can safely comment here. To be honest, I'm not quite sure how SIIT should respond if Debresser raises questions; I know what I think should happen, but not what the letter of the policy says. So SIIT should get guidance from an admin they trust before responding to any points raised by Debresser. Alternately, a smarter admin than me could lay out the ground rules here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not smarter than anybody, but I think any
commentreply by SIITaddressed toto a direct question from Debresser within an interaction ban appeal falls within the scope of WP:BANEX ("appealing the ban" is a specific bullet point). But, you know, stay on topic. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC) clarified in blue -- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)- Agreed. The point of a ban is to prevent disruption rather than to punish, and BANEX includes "Engaging in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution"; there's no ban-breaking if the two have a conversation here, as long as it's related to the ban itself and not disruptive. Obviously any aggressive editing is not legitimate or necessary, but words that would be appropriate between uninvolved editors are appropriate between these two users in this situation. Nyttend (talk) 23:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not smarter than anybody, but I think any
- On what articles you have worked during the topic ban?And what was your major contributions?
- What Judaism topics you intend to work on if the topic ban would be lifted?
Thanks --Shrike (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Shrike:,
- I did not restrict my editing to any specific topic during this specific ban except restricting myself from editing the topics on which I had a ban. So, I worked on multitude of topics but If I have to just pick a few, I would say that my major contributions were creating and improving the articles on United States and Pakistani politicians. The other major contribution sphere was fixing the bare references in articles and that was not restricted to any specific topic either.
- I do not specifically intend to contribute to Judaism topic in near future possibly occasionally but I have nothing specific in mind at this time. I am not too much familiar with Judaism topic hence the risk that I accidentally edit an article unrelated to Judaism topic but having some material which was related to Judaism making me violate my ban and ending up getting a harsher restriction. I have been already banned for four months and the bans are not supposed to be permanent especially when concerned editor is willing to display good behavior. Sheriff ☎ 911 21:13, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) Support lifting the topic ban, let's say per WP:ROPE, and let's also say I didn't really like it from the start but a certain set of editors were lining you up for an unwarranted site ban. In the four months since the previous discussion I really don't see any evidence of conflict in SIIT's editing history at all. I advise you to tread very carefully if you're intending to wade into ARBPIA-covered topics, though. You know how I keep saying that India-Pakistan is one of the most contentious topics on Wikipedia, well when I say that it's one I mean that Israel-Palestine is the other. I know that's not exactly the scope of your topic ban but there's a huge amount of overlap. Go gently, or there are plenty of editors who'll have your ass.
As for the interaction ban I'll reserve my opinion until we hear from Debresser.Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support lifting the interaction ban as well, per follow-up from Debresser below. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem was with editing articles about Jewish religious topics, almost none of which had anything to do with ARBPIA. I believe that SIIT had great difficulty determining between poorly referenced but legitimate article content and original research. If there is an unreferenced assertion in an article, the first step should be to see if references already present elsewhere in the article support that assertion and then add a footnote using the REFNAME function. Another option is a Google search for a new reference to a reliable source. To systematically go through a group of articles in a sensitive topic area and then remove content willy-nilly is disruptive behavior, especially if it is part of a hounding campaign, as it was in this case. This editor clearly does not have the knowledge and good judgment to determine between poorly referenced but probably legitimate content, and obvious original research, at least in the Judaism topic area. I do not know why they want to return to editing articles about Judaism, and would like a much better explanation. And of course I want to hear what Debresser has to say. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with your points on sourcing and I also accept that my behavior was not exemplary, the behavior which resulted in these bans. This attempt is not to return to Judaism topic area but to establish myself as an editor with full editing privileges. I do not intend to immediately start editing Judaism related articles but restriction prohibits me from occasional editing as well and is broadly construed thus containing a risk of me editing an article containing content about Judaism without me knowing that these terms or that specific content might be related to Judaism. The examples of these edits could be, let's say fixing the references or fixing spelling in an area which discussed something related to Judaism. These are unnecessary shackles which I would like to take off. I have been banned for four months, please let me know what do I need to do to get this ban off as bans are not supposed to stay permanent, they are supposed to be for limited time and if the behavior which got the initial ban issued is not repeated then it should be lifted. If there is a fear that I might repeat that behavior again in future then no one has seen the future and if admins can impose the ban once, they can impose it again. I can only assure you that it will not be repeated again. Sheriff ☎ 911 21:32, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd say it should be safe to remove the restriction at this point, SIIT seems contrite and self-critical. The main problem was WP:CIR in the specific topic area. Perhaps a probation period might help to alleviate people's worries? Guy (Help!) 21:43, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I just reviewed Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive995#SheriffIsInTown and SIIT's edits since then, and my conclusion is that I support lifting of all restrictions. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, lift both bans. Nice to see a self-critical topic ban appeal. Bishonen talk 23:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC).
- Support the proposed lifting of both bans, per User:Ivanvector. Debresser (talk) 00:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support lifting both bans. Sherriff can be very productive when they're not getting into controversies so let's get some of that productivity back.--regentspark (comment) 02:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support As per answers to my questions and Debresser response --Shrike (talk) 07:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Support per comments above, and especially because of Debresser's support. (Restoring comment that somehow got removed.) Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Russian Primary Chronicle
(non-admin closure) With some guidance from this thread, Nicola Mitchell has successfully moved the page. No further action appears necessary. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 05:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I tried to revert the title of this article: The Russian Primary Chronicle. Its previous title was The Primary Chronicle, and this article has existed for almost twenty years. It was changed by an editor who has only been working for three months. When I tried to revert the title to its original, it indicated that I need an administrator to revert the title. Can you help with this? Here was my reason for reverting: The "Russian" Primary Chronicle implies that the article is about the translations of the Chronicle, which were done in the 20th century when the translators to be politically correct called it "Russian", and thus limits the scope of this article. The Chronicle was recorded in Kievan Rus' at a time when Russia did not exist. Nicola Mitchell (talk) 20:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I can't follow a word you're saying. Who is the editor (don't call people "it")? Also, provide diffs in support of your assertions.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- If the move was clearly improper then an administrator (or page mover) could help you out. However, the page was moved nearly three months ago, so in my opinion it's too late to revert it for that reason, and I don't see how it could be considered clearly wrong in any case. Your best bet at this point is to start a new move discussion and make your case. Please see the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't see that Nicola Mitchell ever referred to people as it.
"
Its previous title was The Primary Chronicle ..... It was changed by an editor ..... When I tried to revert the title to its original
" - these seem to clearly refer to the article or its title.or maybe our guidelines.it indicated that I need an administrator
- this seems to refer to the Wikipedia's Mediawiki UI or maybe our guidelines.translators to be politically correct called it "Russian"
- this seems to refer to the subject of the article which clearly isn't a person.Nil Einne (talk) 05:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)04:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- BTW, I'm 99% sure the OP can actually revert this move. The current title is Russian Primary Chronicle and the original title Primary Chronicle. Both the talk page and article are not move protected, and the original titles are single edit redirects. As I understand it, an ordinary editor can therefore before the move back to Primary Chronicle. I'm not about to try since as Ivanvector said, I'm not sure whether reverting a nearly 3 month old move as undiscussed is justified. (Although I do wonder whether making a new move and seeing if it sticks may be okay provided you don't try a second time if reverted.) Also no idea about the subpage although I guess that's a secondary concern. I strongly suspect reason why the OP is having problems is I think because they tried to move to The Primary Chronicle which has been edited so can't be moved over without admin (well or page mover) involvement so they would 'can't perform this move' message (which admittedly doesn't directly say admin required). But the article was never titled with the "The" at least recently and I'm not sure if there's a good reason for having "The" in the title. Nil Einne (talk) 05:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
user:Fgnievinski
Much written in prose. Not much agreed, except for consensus to close. Levivich 23:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
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Hopefully I am wrong but I have detected suspicious editting from user:Fgnievinski. it could have been an accident, straight up vandalism or potentially guerilla marketting and vandalism. They created a redirect page sneakily enough for Procedia that any link to it would refer to the category page, effectively concealing it since 2015. I didnt notice what was happenning at first and i find it very odd that there is no full article for this journal. there are also few unanswered notifications on their talk page of deletion of articles they created. but I would suggest as a precaution that the account be investigated for sock puppetting as they may have used multiple accounts to conceal such edits if it is a result of an attempt to obstruct the primary purpose of the wiki project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Verify references (talk • contribs) 03:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just to note User:Verify references is a brand new account, created just today, which immediately jumped into editing at full throttle, and (obviously) knew where to find AN/I. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- And it's probably just a coincidence, but the account User:VerifiedFixes was just indef blocked 3 days ago. Just saying.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Fgnievinski Not having pages in favor of creating re-directs is actually pretty standard fare around here. A lot of times, a page just doesn't have any content, and is waiting for an editor like you to come around and fill it out. While not an ideal situation, it can tide over pages that could redirect to a parent page, or pages that may themselves not yet be notable enough for their own article. I note that user:Fgnievinski created this page 4 years ago, and has been editing without much issue since. It seems pretty unlikely that they are a sock of anyone, nor are they socking. Don't just accuse folks of socking without solid evidence, such as providing diffs. This issue appears to be neither "urgent, chronic, nor intractable" (as issues for this noticeboard ought be), unless I'm missing something? Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- And it's probably just a coincidence, but the account User:VerifiedFixes was just indef blocked 3 days ago. Just saying.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
General note to any passing admin: Just as a lot of folks see socks behind every tree, maybe I'm seeing fish behind every tree; but with that said, OP user:Verify references may be the fishier user here. Although I usually lurk around ANI (in a battle for ever-better poetry), I actually found this report when I reported this user to UAA [176] and was checking their contribs. For an editor who only registered a day ago, they sure seem to know a lot about policy. I WP:AGF about that, and assume that based on these edit, one as an IP [177], and another as a recently minted editor [178] on the same page, that they have been IP editing for a while, and are thus somewhat familiar with the place. But based on what BeyondMyKen says... I question if something fishy IS going on here. (Non-administrator comment) Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
yes I have been editing for quite a few years with an IP now because i hate the toxic politics of this place. Australian ISPs only have dynamic IPs unless you pay a bunch more for your internet because you absolutely need a static IP for a business fyi. creating redirects for super-class articles before their subclasses is not common here. it's especially uncommon for top level articles. the reason for this is because articles evolve organically and fork when they get too big forming little baby articles. I registered because i kept getting spammed with SIGN UP NOW messages. now i have a username, i get derogation for being an IP poster. and you will notice, with the exception of re-adding problem tags which were removed repeatedly-- in contravention of guidelines --and then posting the OR page I disengaged from all the other disputes.(btw i am right in that finch dispute. the disruptive user persists in reposting TERTIARY sources which they believe are SECONDARY sources and believes a secondary source is primary. I even very elaborately explained the secondary sources reasoning before i created this account, going through it in steps to which i got a 'nuh-uhhhh' reply from the other editor. that's why i referred it to the community because it was still a problem but there wasnt anymore i could do.)
The suggested permaban for my username is absurd."Usernames which could be easily misunderstood to refer to a "bot" (which is used to identify bot accounts) or a "script" (which alludes to automated editing processes), unless the account is of that type." The meaning is very clear here. the name must include "bot" or "script" to misleadingly imply it is a bot. dont try to enforce rules that dont exist. Or do, pick the kind of place you want to admin. well gee, I thought captain Eek was a bot you should ban him because my feelings are hurt? what nonsense.User:VerifiedFixes yeah, so? i share like 5 letters with that username and you are sysops so you can check my activity from before i created this account and see it doesnt match.
picking through your nonsense, this is all you had to say,
"This issue appears to be neither "urgent, chronic, nor intractable" (as issues for this noticeboard ought be), unless I'm missing something?" it is not very clear regarding how to contact an available admin for advice regarding such a topic. please just send me a link and close this thread. Verify references (talk) 09:28, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
also, just before i get banned for telling it to you straight, check out how toxic this place is even to your fellow admins.User:JamesBWatson sorry about any distress i caused you over this incident. you posted an older version of the page while i read the current version. you posted "Before listing a review request, please: Discuss the matter with the closing editor and try to resolve it with them first." the current version is 'Before listing a review request please consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly.' 'please consider' implies it is optional. so there was no need for you to participate or apologise. people make mistakes and there's only so much time you can really expect people to spend on each review, especially considering how bad the first half of the article was. Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_February_26 Verify references (talk) 09:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Verify references: I have no idea why you have brought this up here, as it is about a totally unrelated matter. However, since you have brought it up, you may like to go back to the page in question, and search for the quote that I gave. It does appear on the current version of the page, word for word, as I copied and pasted it. Also, it has been there since at least as far back a 2006. (I haven't checked further back than that.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
I probably created the redirect just to increase the population in Category:Conference proceedings. There you'll see lots of similar redirects, many created by other people. fgnievinski (talk) 03:51, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Move to close
Reporting Verify Referneces for UAA was an error on my part, in hindsight it was not a clear violation. However, the purpose of this thread on this board remains unclear. OP came here to report a user for socking and making redirects improperly, but said actions were made in what appears to be good faith more than 3 years ago. I move to close this thread as stale (heck, at 3 years this is closer to moldy or "will give you botulism"). Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 21:08, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
2019 India–Pakistan standoff
Content dispute, nothing for admins to do here. Wikiemirati (talk) 03:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2019 India–Pakistan standoff, which is on the front page, is becoming a battleground of inexperienced users fighting for the inclusion of their respective country's positions and points of view. The article (and its talk page too) could use some more eyes. Abductive (reasoning) 20:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I ECP'd it earlier today, which should help a bit. GABgab 20:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @GeneralizationsAreBad: We haven't tried autoconfirmed yet? ECP might cause a big delay in updating breaking stories since the article is about a current event. GN-z11☎★ 21:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:GS/IPAK and WP:ARBIPA. MER-C 21:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- This is a clear example of why Wikipedia should not attempt to be a site for breaking news, but we should wait at least a week or two for proper secondary sources to appear before having an article. There's no way that this event can possibly be covered in a neutral way yet before the facts are clearly established. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well, first, the events relevant to any such article go back at least a few weeks. More to the point, I guarantee you that two weeks (or for that matter, two years) from now, that topic will still be subject to edit warring and disruption from opinionated SPAs with strong nationalist sentiments locked in a contest of wills. There's a reason the WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions exist and if we waited to develop encyclopedic coverage in that area until after the fervor had passed, we might as well be waiting on the heat death of the universe. Snow let's rap 01:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, of course it will be subject to edit warring and disruption, but if there are good secondary sources it will be possible to counter that effectively. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Or we could delete and wait until it is all over and then write a proper article.Slatersteven (talk) 10:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I was getting at - wait until
there aresome good-quality secondary sources, rather than breaking news reports, exist. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)- I concur and add that, as a general principle, Wikipedia shouldn't be discussing crises until they're historical events. Simonm223 (talk) 14:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have been arguing that for a long time, too many people rush to create articles to get one under their belt. They end up messy battlegrounds that (invariably) end up wholly different in many key aspects form the early day mess.Slatersteven (talk) 19:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I concur and add that, as a general principle, Wikipedia shouldn't be discussing crises until they're historical events. Simonm223 (talk) 14:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I was getting at - wait until
- Or we could delete and wait until it is all over and then write a proper article.Slatersteven (talk) 10:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, of course it will be subject to edit warring and disruption, but if there are good secondary sources it will be possible to counter that effectively. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, first, the events relevant to any such article go back at least a few weeks. More to the point, I guarantee you that two weeks (or for that matter, two years) from now, that topic will still be subject to edit warring and disruption from opinionated SPAs with strong nationalist sentiments locked in a contest of wills. There's a reason the WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions exist and if we waited to develop encyclopedic coverage in that area until after the fervor had passed, we might as well be waiting on the heat death of the universe. Snow let's rap 01:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- This is a clear example of why Wikipedia should not attempt to be a site for breaking news, but we should wait at least a week or two for proper secondary sources to appear before having an article. There's no way that this event can possibly be covered in a neutral way yet before the facts are clearly established. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:GS/IPAK and WP:ARBIPA. MER-C 21:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @GeneralizationsAreBad: We haven't tried autoconfirmed yet? ECP might cause a big delay in updating breaking stories since the article is about a current event. GN-z11☎★ 21:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Users from both India and Pakistan are repeatedly inserting their own POV into the following articles, disallowing neutral sources to be written in, which is making updating the article difficult. User's who have even been autoconfirmed or long-time editors are also frequently engaging in this pointless tug of war. Can the administrators please protect the articles which contain information from neutral sources? The affected article sections are shown below:
- 2019 Indian-Pakistan Stand-off (Satellite Imagery)
- 2019 Balakot Airstrike (Satellite Imagery)
- Jaish-e-Mohammed (Satellite Imagery)
NarSakSasLee (talk) 13:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Do you have a better source for analysis of these images than Medium (website)? Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Medium is one of those sites that you really need to see who wrote the article. The Atlantic Council seems to have the required credentials to talk about this subject. spryde talk 14:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @NarSakSasLee: WP:RSN would be the right venue to discuss whether this Medium post can be used as a source in the articles. Abecedare (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Medium is one of those sites that you really need to see who wrote the article. The Atlantic Council seems to have the required credentials to talk about this subject. spryde talk 14:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
This is a content dispute. But it does reinforce my view, nuke it from orbit.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I am deeply suspicious of established newsmedia sources, let alone iffy ones like Medium - which is effectively a blogging platform. I don't have a horse in this race beyond hoping that India and Pakistan will resolve their conflict peacefully; and I agree with Slatersteven that this is a content dispute and not a matter for AN/I. But the guidance I'd give about why this seems inappropriate for this venue is because there's a legitimate case to be made that the source isn't reliable. Simonm223 (talk) 14:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- All of the articles mentioned here are already ECP protected under WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions or the newer WP:GS/IPAK general sanctions. Administrators can't protect a particular version of an article deemed to be neutral, that's not how Wikipedia works (see WP:NOTFINISHED, WP:ANYONECANEDIT (with caveats), or WP:WRONGVERSION). I have been watching 2019 Balakot airstrike and in my opinion the talk page discussions are working well to keep unreliable content out of the articles, to the extent that any information on this incident can be considered reliable. If extended-confirmed editors are editing disruptively on these articles they should be blocked; I haven't seen anything that rises to that level as of yet. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector sums it up nicely. The page is getting high volume of edits as the subject is in the news and is also on Wikipedia's Main page, so it is expected. There is absolutely nothing for admins to do here. Whatever was necessary has already been done, thanks to GAB. ANI does not handle content disputes. No one is misbehaving right now. If someone misbehaved, they will be reported to the usual channels. :IMHO Someone should close this redundant thread now. --DBigXrayᗙ 14:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've put Jaish-e-Mohammed under an indefinite 1RR restriction per the discretionary sanctions, due to ECP editors edit warring over sources. I don't think there's any more to do here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Content Dispute on Magic Kingdom Parade
Nothing for admins to do here. Wikiemirati (talk) 05:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Good evening everyone,
Since late last year, a user by the name of User:The Banner was removing information relevant to the subject of the article, besides reverting hoax edits made by a multi-IP vandal from Canada. These parades, despite being unsourced, are relevant information to WDW history. He also claims that an "independent source" is required, though in WP:CITE I can find nothing noting this. In addition, I have filed a content dispute resolution request, and was turned down, and judging by this user's past block log it looks like he has a long history of getting himself into trouble. If someone could look into this matter and resolve it, that would be great! --IanDBeacon (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- So far, there are zero (nil, 0) independent sources. There was no serious attempt for discussion from the side of IanDBeacon, as can be seen here. In the present state it is - in my opinion - again plain advertising. The Banner talk 23:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @The Banner: I doubt that this was advertising. Besides, those parades were listed without sources before. --IanDBeacon (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OSE. Miniapolis 00:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Good evening. First, ANI doesn't adjudicate content disputes; second, all WP content must be verifiable—not necessarily verified, but verifiable. I see no problem with TB's edits, and don't give a rat's ass about "WDW history". This is an encyclopedia, not a fansite. All the best, Miniapolis 00:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Concur that ANI doesn't resolve content disputes. @IanDBeacon:, you should already be aware that your Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard request was turned down because you had not engaged in discussion about this subject on the talk page.[179] To date, you've made one comment on the talk page of the article, and it wasn't about removing parades. An alternative would have been to engage The Banner on his talk page. That hasn't happened either. Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution#Discuss_with_the_other_party is an early step in the dispute resolution process, one that hasn't been taken. Please take it. You're still at the same place you were when your DRN request was denied nearly 2 months ago. With regards to The Banner's block log, I think it's bad form to be bringing up a block log to try to tilt the conversation in your favor, especially when the last block was 3.5 years ago. Whatever The Banner's faults were, they are not faults now judging by the last 3.5 years. For what its worth in regards to the content, I too would remove it. It's trivial information that remains uncited to any reliable source. The source used appears to be a fan site. If you can find independent, reliable, secondary sources to support any of these parades, then discuss them on the talk page of the article and move forward. I know you have your heart in this, so let's try to find those sources, ok? --Hammersoft (talk) 03:02, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Hammersoft: Got it, thanks. IanDBeacon (talk) 03:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
An off-Wiki discussion about a potential but unknown vandal
§ CLOSED | |
Nothing left to do here. Good brief discussion for what it is worth. (non-admin closure) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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I saw this discussion and thought you might be interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/avq1c6/lecturer_behaviour_amounting_to_vandalism/ DanBCDanBC (talk) 15:29, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Without any knowledge of who the editor is or which articles are "at risk" there's not much we can do. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 15:36, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well given the action should not be possible to find out (assuming this is real, of course), just look for the user who inserts incorrect links in legal pages.Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- We're potentially looking at thousands of pages. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- ...and in any case, this is hearsay. With a little more information we might be able to look into it. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- As I said, assuming this is true. Its just as likely this is someone trying to make a similar point by getting us to hunt down non existent vandals. But it might be worth just keeping a wry eye out for any odd activity.Slatersteven (talk) 18:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- ...and in any case, this is hearsay. With a little more information we might be able to look into it. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- We're potentially looking at thousands of pages. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Well given the action should not be possible to find out (assuming this is real, of course), just look for the user who inserts incorrect links in legal pages.Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Edit warring and sockpuppetry at Carlos Marighella article
Socks blocked, page protected. GABgab 17:05, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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There seems to be an edit war brewing at the Carlos Marighella article, inserting the contentious label WP:TERRORIST into the intro. The editors seem to be single purpose accounts. Two accounts were banned for being a sock:
Not sure if these are related:
--60.242.159.224 (talk) 15:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- SPI filed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SacredGeometry333. GABgab 16:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
LTA on the loose who keeps evading blocks and creating usernames similar to Gay Nishikori
The OP is an obvious troll.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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I've noticed this username, The fairy Nishikori, which reminded me about a noted LTA (here're the last known socks, Nishikori a fairy and Nishikori the fairy) who's been vandalising short time ago the page about Kei Nishikori, a Japanese tennis player, and disrupting phonetic transcriptions about tennis players and sportsmen in general; here's a partial list of the large number of blocked socks he's been creating:
- Nishikori Gay
- Gay Nishikori
- GAY Nishikori GAY
- The GAY Nishikori
- Nishikori the GAY
- Nishikori a GAY
- Nishikori pure GAY
- Nishikori th' GAY
- Nishikori, a real GAY
Because of the nature of the edits and of his behaviour, I'm quite sure he's realted other socks, such as Trivial Wikipedian and Miaowmiaowmew which have already been blocked but there may be others sleeping, and to Chinese IP ranges, such as 14.220.0.0/16 and 113.77.0.0/16 which have been used for the same kind of vandalisms and disruptions, so in my humble opinion it's manifest that this is the umpteenth case of block evasion by this Long-Term Abuser, it's worth investigating his probable last sock and eventually block it, revert its edits and check whether there're others hidden or not Boris Guitars (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- File a report at WP:SPI. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I edit conflicted with Bbb23 closing this, but
No sleepers immediately visible. No comment on the IP addresses. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
CU-blocked sock needs talk page access removed
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Ishmailer (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is a CU-blocked sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Evlekis and needs to have their TPA revoked. See contribs. - Tom Thomas.W talk 11:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Agenda-driven IP hopper
BLOCKED | |
Taken care of by Berean Hunter. ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 20:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Don't know what can be done about this, but I suspect more are shortly down the pike. We have an IP hopper in Bosnia and Herzegovina who has a grievance against David J. Wineland and Southern California Earthquake Center. The filter logs are as relevant as the edits that got through. Possibly there will be more, as an edit summary on the earthqueke center talk page had a heading "Want war? You have it!" The ones on the Wineland article are BLP issues.
- IP 31.185.125.144 is currently short-term blocked for their activity.
- IP 77.238.221.246 is not blocked, but I'm sure is the same individual.
- IP 217.197.142.12 is the same individual with the same issues.
— Maile (talk) 18:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- All blocked and the same.
— Berean Hunter(talk) 19:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I rev-del'ed a bunch of it. DMacks (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- This looks like Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bosnipedian. DMacks (talk) 22:56, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Indef block request
Oversight team was emailed by Abecedare. All set. ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 14:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Closed as moron blocked - I've readded OPs comment back as Jehochman comment doesn't make sense on its own, NAC. –Davey2010Talk 21:38, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
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For this rant which includes ["REDACTED]" (emphasis added).
− Also this: [185] EvergreenFir (talk) 21:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
@EvergreenFir: thank you for reporting this incident. The user has been blocked. I'm blanking prior discussion because we don't vote on blocks; it's unseemly. Additionally, when somebody is a troll, it is best not to amplify their remarks by re-posting them. A report of the form "User is editing disruptively (diffs). Administrator assistance is needed..." Is the best way to handle something like this. I am sorry you had to see those remarks. They were hideous. JehochmanTalk 21:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've indef blocked even though the user self-reverted, given the nature of the edit, previous warnings on their talkpage, and prior history of gnoming edits mixed with apparent trolling. Wouldn't obect to another admin shortening the block if they feel the user is redeemable. Abecedare (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Post-Close Discussion
- I don't think so. The comments are so far out of bounds that they should be oversighted. I feel sorry for whatever trauma this person must have endured to twist their soul so badly. If they want to come back with a new account and edit properly, nobody is going to bother tracking them down. JehochmanTalk 21:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why we're commenting on a closed thread but Jehochman I find it highly problematic that you, as an admin, are endorsing and encouraging WP:Block evasion for an account that has had a repeated and habitual problem of violating WP:NPA, including a previous block in which their talk page access was revoked, and has blatantly been trolling with few meaningful edits. I'm also confused as to your G5 deletion of the userpage. Could you elaborate? Praxidicae (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think so. The comments are so far out of bounds that they should be oversighted. I feel sorry for whatever trauma this person must have endured to twist their soul so badly. If they want to come back with a new account and edit properly, nobody is going to bother tracking them down. JehochmanTalk 21:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have deleted the edit; will email the OSers.
- And after reviewing their past history in greater detail, its clear that the latest post/revert was just a continuation of longterm (and sometimes subtle) trolling. So I too don't see them being unblocked anytime.
- @Praxidicae: J may choose to answer but really WP:BEANS applys. Abecedare (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
CU-blocked sock needs talk page access removed
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Ishmailer (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is a CU-blocked sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Evlekis and needs to have their TPA revoked. See contribs. - Tom Thomas.W talk 11:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Possible legal threat at Talk:P
Blocked by Bbb23. (non-admin closure) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 15:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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1.127.110.165 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) placed an edit request at Talk:P [186]. Among other things, they threaten to press charges. Clearly not something for an edit request, could someone please take a look and respond as needed. Thanks! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've blocked the IP for one week although the legal threat is incomprehensible.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Admin who may need a something like a bureaucrat.
Reporter has been pointed to more appropriate venues. ansh666 23:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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I'm User:Jerzy, an admin for over 15 years, Angela Beasley recruited me to request Adminship. I've wandered into something that *appears to me, tentatively*, to be a pattern of starting massive numbers of surname pages with the intent of soliciting fees to include (at least) law firms' names on those pages, one might assume in return for fees from the business's advertising budgets.
(Redacted) -- Jerzy•t 07:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Jerzy: I'd try the bureaucrats' noticeboard --DannyS712 (talk) 08:05, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jerzy I would have thought WP:COIBOARD. A bit concerning that a 15 year Admin is not aware of this? As for site integrity and racketeering, don't worry. Leaky caldron (talk) 08:48, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- [187] Just so. ——SerialNumber54129 08:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- LC, admins do not know the exact wording of every single policy, procedure, guideline & essay, nor do they always know how to respond to every issue that arises. Them seeking guidance & assistance is the exact point of these AN boards, lest they do something and then be accused of abusing the tools... GiantSnowman 13:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Meh, if I hadn't verified that the user is an admin, I would have thought they were a troll.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bbb23, I know you're joking, but you probably need the adminhighlighter. Lourdes 17:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's great to have the security of the site at heart, but I think concern over "interstate RICO penalties" is taking it a bit far :) ——SerialNumber54129 19:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:POPUPS will also show you if a user is a sysop. It gets pretty badly jumbled up with users just below that level, though, with multiple advanced non-admin rights. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bbb23, I know you're joking, but you probably need the adminhighlighter. Lourdes 17:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Meh, if I hadn't verified that the user is an admin, I would have thought they were a troll.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- LC, admins do not know the exact wording of every single policy, procedure, guideline & essay, nor do they always know how to respond to every issue that arises. Them seeking guidance & assistance is the exact point of these AN boards, lest they do something and then be accused of abusing the tools... GiantSnowman 13:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- [187] Just so. ——SerialNumber54129 08:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jerzy I would have thought WP:COIBOARD. A bit concerning that a 15 year Admin is not aware of this? As for site integrity and racketeering, don't worry. Leaky caldron (talk) 08:48, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- If your request has private information, please contact the Arbitration Committee. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's no private information and no emergency, it's just an over-reaction to the fact that the DAB page listed law firms. The page was created as a disambiguation page in 2012 by Hebrides. I've redacted what appear to be legal threats. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman I would say this in response. A 15 year admin. should know how to find out where to report WP:COIN and certainly understand 'Crat resp. I gave a response to the best of my ability. Others here have commented inrideo but you have chosen to single out my post for mild-rebuke amongst what appears to be a bunch of your fellow Admins. Why me? Leaky caldron (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) There is some admin which not online for a while, or never participated in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football in recent year but somehow still maintained/"patrolling" football related articles. There is some relic on the admin rights issue and there is no rule to need admin to take exam to renew the rights. Or the rights seldom expire unless that user voluntary declare to take a wiki break. Back to the topic, it is not a place to rant wrong forum and people should know what, posting in ANI is a good indication of trying to solve the issue (legal threat for this BTW?). Matthew hk (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Matthew hk Who, specifically are you accusing of "ranting"? Leaky caldron (talk) 18:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) There is some admin which not online for a while, or never participated in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football in recent year but somehow still maintained/"patrolling" football related articles. There is some relic on the admin rights issue and there is no rule to need admin to take exam to renew the rights. Or the rights seldom expire unless that user voluntary declare to take a wiki break. Back to the topic, it is not a place to rant wrong forum and people should know what, posting in ANI is a good indication of trying to solve the issue (legal threat for this BTW?). Matthew hk (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman I would say this in response. A 15 year admin. should know how to find out where to report WP:COIN and certainly understand 'Crat resp. I gave a response to the best of my ability. Others here have commented inrideo but you have chosen to single out my post for mild-rebuke amongst what appears to be a bunch of your fellow Admins. Why me? Leaky caldron (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's no private information and no emergency, it's just an over-reaction to the fact that the DAB page listed law firms. The page was created as a disambiguation page in 2012 by Hebrides. I've redacted what appear to be legal threats. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I, too, was surprised at a 15-year admin who didn't know where to go, and didn't know how to find out for themselves. Their log shows very few admin actions, some of which were actions that could (now) have been performed by non-admins with the necessary user rights. I really need to ask: has Jerzy been gaming the system in order to retain the bit? Do we need to redefine our standards so that the admin actions which keep the bit active are ones which only admins can perform? Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: - we had a recent, large-scale, discussion on things like this Admin Activity requirements - but none of the ideas got better than a NC. In relation to this case, rebuking admins for asking questions seems risky if it discourages them from asking for information to inform actions. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't intend to "rebuke" them, just to express my surprise at their need to ask. Also, "something like a Bureaucrat" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about their functional awareness of this site's ways. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: - we had a recent, large-scale, discussion on things like this Admin Activity requirements - but none of the ideas got better than a NC. In relation to this case, rebuking admins for asking questions seems risky if it discourages them from asking for information to inform actions. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Can we not go after an old admin just for being an old admin and asking for help in the [arguably] wrong place? Who cares if he hasn't used the tools much? We have had plenty of admins go inactive for a long time and later come back and be a great help, and we're presently hemorrhaging administrators. OP has been directed to COIN. This thread can close. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:32, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- And we've also had a number of incidents where old time admins come back and weren't in step with current practices and policies. There's a reason we have inactivity standards now, and it's perfectly legitimate to ask questions when an admin appears not to be as conversant with the site as we might expect them to be. Being ad admin is largely a matter of holding the trust of the community. I'm not saying that Jerzy shouldn't be an admin, but I am asking a question which is reasonable and legitimate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jerzy has 57,000 edits and has never really been away as such - he’s edited consistently year on year, he just doesn’t use the tools very much. I don’t see it as gaming the system or making token edits like some other recent cases. Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:46, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- WTF? Jerzy has 1500+ edits in 2018 (78% in mainspace) [188], which is >100/month, which puts him in the top 3,500 most-active-users (top 0.2%) [189]. And there are multiple suggestions of gaming and inactivity? WTF am I missing? Nobody should be getting flak for coming here asking a question, and no regular long-time contributor who's passed an RfA should be disrespected like this. Apologies are in order in my humble opinion. Leviv ich 19:10, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- As a "regular long-time contributor"? ——SerialNumber54129 19:16, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unless I'm misreading xtools, 57k over 15+ years, including >1,500/year for the last three years = regular long-time contributor. You disagree? Leviv ich 19:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not at all; I was referring to your humble opinion. ——SerialNumber54129 19:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unless I'm misreading xtools, 57k over 15+ years, including >1,500/year for the last three years = regular long-time contributor. You disagree? Leviv ich 19:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- As a "regular long-time contributor"? ——SerialNumber54129 19:16, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Legal threat by User:Purgy Purgatorio
At [190]: "Next time I will... use the means provided for libel". Also, as I'm apparently not welcome on the editor's talk page, I'd be grateful if someone else would notify them of this discussion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I've notified. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- Purgy Purgatorio, it is very important that you clarify your intention. Please carefully read the policy no legal threats, and then respond here. If your intention was to make a legal threat, as it appears, then you must be blocked indefinitely until you withdraw the legal threat. Cullen328Let's discuss it 18:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I blocked Purgy Purgatorio about ten hours later, because they had resumed normal editing without responding here. They instantly responded on their talk page one minute before I posted my block notice, then followed up with an unblock request. I would appreciate it if another adminstrator would evaluate their unblock request. I have had a very long day and need to go to bed. Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Purgy Purgatorio, it is very important that you clarify your intention. Please carefully read the policy no legal threats, and then respond here. If your intention was to make a legal threat, as it appears, then you must be blocked indefinitely until you withdraw the legal threat. Cullen328Let's discuss it 18:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
I think they have said they never meant that as a legal threat. I'll let someone less sleep deprived look at it. On a new matter, could someone look at the user page? Also, in my addled state, it seems to me from the talk page that the are maintaining some sort of list of users, and not a good one. DlohCierekim (talk) 09:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I think they're clear that no legal threat was intended, so I have unblocked. I have not examined the user page. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I had the following text in the edit window here at WP:ANI, could preview it, but was blocked to publish it:
It is true that Pigsonthewing was and is, now even stronger, not welcome on my TP, so thanks to Boing! said Zebedee for notifying me that my not absolutely unmistakeable formulation (cited in the charge) is considered as "legal threat". To be as clear as it is possible to my non-native capabilities of using the English language, I herewith state that I never ever even considered uttering any legal threat here on WP. As an Austrian citizen with no whatsoever residence abroad I consider uttering any such threat on my behalf as rendering myself as ridiculous. My cited wording is and was always intended as announcing, for my future use,
the means provided by WP
with the WP-RPA template. I will avoid, just striking my name from an imho defamatory list and correcting to the new entry count. I will amend my comment on my TP accordingly to save anyone from feeling as a legally threatend victim.I am disinterested in additionally wasting anyone's time on this, but please, let me know if further information I could provide is necessary or useful to someone in charge. Everybody can research this incident by starting at the link given in the indictment. I cannot recall any further encounters with Pigsonthewing. Purgy (talk) 08:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- It appears strange to me that I was not granted a reasonable deadline to contemplate the serious accusation, just got my privileges cut while preparing the above after doing some clerical clean up.
- I am not aware of the meaning of me "maintaining a no good list" of names on my TP, where I document some interactions here on WP. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
- I do not expect that any admin valuates the potential of threat that was covered in my reply to templating me on my TP on a closed matter. Purgy (talk) 11:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Per WP:NLT, legal threats are a definite no no here. Sometimes if the message is very unclear, admins make seek clarification beforehand, but it depends on a lot of factors. It looks like people did give you time to respond but you didn't respond as soon as you started editing again. As someone who often ignores notifications (OBOD etc), I can understand how this would happen but ultimately if I miss an important notification and fail to respond to something I needed to respond to, it's my own fault really. If you want to avoid problems, stay well away from any message that could be construed as a legal threat. Definitely words like libel should be avoided, especially when referring to yourself as the one libeled. Remember that our various policies like WP:BLP and WP:NPA go beyond the standards of libel in the US, and quite a number of other countries (at least in some areas), and the WMF lawyers are the only one who can deal with actual legal issues. (I mean concerning wikipedia. Concerning editors it's of course on them and any lawyers representing them.) So issues like libel are an odd thing for community discussions anyway. If you are blocked because what you said is misconstrued, an unblock should be simple. Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- As for the other stuff, see WP:UP#NOT. Maintaining a list where you document your negative interactions with other editors, especially named editors and when you comment on said editors, is often seen as violating WP:FIGHTINGWORDS and WP:POLEMIC. As with everything on wikipedia, I don't think we are entirely consistent with how we deal with such stuff. Notably you're probably going to get away with more if you're an established editor than a fairly new one. But regardless of the fairness of how we deal with such things, your best bet again is to simply avoid it. Remembering we are not a webhost or a cloud storage provide, if you do wish to keep such things, you can keep them somewhere else preferably private. Note I offer no comment on the appropriateness of what you've written on your userpage. Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Purgy Purgatorio: actually see [191] which directly deals with this. I didn't link to it earlier because rearrangement of the guidelines meant I didn't find it. This is also why I'm making it a permalink to ensure you will be able to find it. Nil Einne (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I had the following text in the edit window here at WP:ANI, could preview it, but was blocked to publish it:
- I've left a note at Purgy Purgatorio's TP asking them to rethink the material on their userpage. I think the intent is not to keep a laundry list of wrongs but rather a diary of their activities at WP; in particular, the earlier entries are neither negative nor directed at other editors. As they've started to have run-ins with other editors, it's turned more into a record of wrongs. GoldenRing (talk) 14:01, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
User:03wikicreator
- 03wikicreator(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log)Gaming the system process. Added {{Uncategorized}} to different articles to achieve 10 edits and created an article Berlin United. Paid editing declared on his userpage. His/Her username is clear that he wants to create articles.--94rain Talk 11:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Also, I found 01wikicreator、02wikicreator、04wikicreator. They all registered on 2018-10-18, but have not made any edits yet.--94rain Talk 12:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- 94rain, I found Special:CentralAuth/Wikicreator00, Wikiname10, Wikiaccount324, WikiCorrector1928, Wikiuser31, MyWiki110, and WikiUser775 as well. Same exact day of registration. ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 19:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC) Of those obviously Wikicreator00 is the most clear. ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 19:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Also, I found 01wikicreator、02wikicreator、04wikicreator. They all registered on 2018-10-18, but have not made any edits yet.--94rain Talk 12:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
user:Gharaibeh
Hi. Gharaibeh (talk · contribs) come to my talk page after around 9 years of inactivity to describe me with offensive words here like accusing me as having "Islamic extremism,..etc. He returned after all those years to concern about article about his tribe that was nominated for deletion by me and was deleted according to deletion discussion. this behavior support the possibility of bias in his writings. regards--مصعب (talk) 14:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Personal attacks in reported user's recent edits: [192], [193], [194]. Reported user has level two warning on their talk page as of this writing, but nothing more. Most of Gharaibeh's edits have been to Draft:Gharaibeh. OP is mainly correct in User:Gharaibeh has not made many edits since 2009, although they have made more than none. Seems like perhaps a formal warning to Gharaibeh would suffice for now. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 22:56, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Issues arising from Signpost article
I've got no dog in this fight, so I can objectively say these topics are filling this page with no resolution in sight on any subtopic. ArbComm is a more structured environment if someone(s) wants to pursue anything further. Over there interested parties can participate with word limits and uninterested parties can keep it off their watchlists (nac) Legacypac (talk) 11:32, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Violation of topic ban by Barbara (WVS)
Barbara (WVS) (talk · contribs) is topic-banned (WP:TBAN) from "health and medical topics, including anatomy and sexuality, broadly construed", as a result of this discussion (and clarified and upheld here). Her creation of Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour violates this restriction. Bradv🍁 15:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wow. This puts a different perspective on the "humour" article. I note that this is an "official" WVS (WikiEd) sock account, considering that the TBAN applies to the accounts holder, are all the related accounts being used confirmed? --Fæ (talk) 15:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert in topic bans but Sarek's comment here, specifically in response to Barbara's request for clarification makes it fairly obvious to me that this is a blatant violation of the ban. Praxidicae (talk) 15:24, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Definitely a violation, and I suggest they should be blocked for it. This is just one in what's becoming a long series of "pushing the boundaries" violations of this topic ban, and no matter that this was intended to be humorous (though in my opinion in very poor taste), this ongoing behaviour needs to be corrected. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Clearly a violation of her topic ban, and an example very poor judgment. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nonsense. The posterchild for “theyism” on Wikipedia, which SMC’s piece clearly borrowed from, is a heterosexual woman whose only departures from boring vanilla center-of-the-bellcurve normality are her career path and a lip piercing. There is absolutely no reason why this has to be read into for imaginary phobias. Qwirkle (talk) 16:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I blocked for 72h and will now do the necessary administration. Note that the block in no way expresses my position on the publication of Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, whether the essay is funny or not, whether it should be deleted or not, whether it should have been published in the Signpost etc. Please do not use this block as an argument in the discussions related to the essay.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Nope. Actions by the editor at a newspaper allowing an article written by another person to be in that newspaper are not the same as "edits by that editor". Else, the Signpost could not have any sections remotely mentioning any issues at all regarding "sex" or "health" whatsoever "broadly construed" including listing "most read articles" or "featured articles" which have any connection whatsoever with that topic. As such would be an incomprehensible limitation on the proper functions of that newspaper, it is clear that stretching this to say that the newspaper itself should be subject to a "topic ban" is absurd. The editor in question did not write the essay, and thus ought not be censured for allowing that essay to be published. As the Signpost has, indeed, listed articles relating to "sex" or "health" broadly construed, then the Signpost per se should be eliminated under such a theory. Such a block as has been given should therefore be infinite in scope for any editor at all. Collect (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Collect: No, I think Bri is acting editor, not BVS? ——SerialNumber54129 16:36, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The writer of From the EditorsBri does not appear to assert to hold the title of "supreme editor" and it is clear that Barbara Page was acting as "editor" in presenting the humor essay. I trust this is clear. Collect (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- As mud. ——SerialNumber54129 17:00, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The writer of From the EditorsBri does not appear to assert to hold the title of "supreme editor" and it is clear that Barbara Page was acting as "editor" in presenting the humor essay. I trust this is clear. Collect (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Collect: No, I think Bri is acting editor, not BVS? ——SerialNumber54129 16:36, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The credit for the 'Pronouns beware' essay is "By Barbara Page and SMcCandlish". You appear to be claiming that that credit was false, or for some reason a lie. On what basis is this claim made. --Fæ (talk) 16:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Hasty block. The essay was copied over from another user’s space. It’s not clear what Barbara had to do with it. Barbara had not edited in a day, why not wait for them to respond? Mr Ernie (talk) 16:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
It's not clear to me that the Signpost item in question is covered by the topic area of the ban, which is health and medical topics (with some examples given). The item is related to gender identity, the personal sense of one's own gender
, to quote the corresponding Wikipedia page, but is not about any associated health or medical aspects. isaacl (talk) 16:57, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- It says including sexuality broadly construed - for me there is no doubt that the essay is covered by the topic ban (this is why I blocked).--Ymblanter (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's a comma before "broadly construed", as the qualifier applies to "health and medical topics". "Sexuality" is one of the example given of applicable topics. I'll agree that gender identity broadly speaking falls under anthropology and psychology, but not every part of it is related to health or medicine. I do not believe the topic of pronoun choice fits under the scope of health and medical topics. isaacl (talk) 20:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It ought to be clear from the links Bradv provided that the scope of the ban from human health and medical topics includes anatomy and sexuality, broadly construed. An individual's choice of personal pronouns (certainly related to sexuality, may or may not be related to their own anatomy, and also relate to mental health) absolutely falls under that scope. Ivanvector (Talk/<subEdits) 17:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again, this is obvious nonsense, at least as an overarching generalization. The most usual reason for hiding gender in written communication is to avoid the effects of gender sterotyping, which has nothing to do with sexuality in the narrower particular sense this flap is about. Qwirkle (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- It is not nonsense, and the suggestion that it is is offensive. This isn't about "hiding gender", it's about a person's own choice of gender expression, inherently related to sexuality in a very specific sense. The idea that a person's expression of their own gender or nongender is not related to sexuality is mind-boggling, and using those sensitive choices as a source of ridicule is disgusting. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again, this is obvious nonsense, at least as an overarching generalization. The most usual reason for hiding gender in written communication is to avoid the effects of gender sterotyping, which has nothing to do with sexuality in the narrower particular sense this flap is about. Qwirkle (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've unblocked pending a consensus forming here. From my unblock rationale: "Block was *far* too hasty; it is definitely not even clear that the essay was covered by this topic ban, either in words or in spirit. Discussion is in progress at ANI, no reason to short circuit that. *If* consensus for a block develops, obviously an admin can impose it without being accused of wheel warring." The problems that led to the topic ban had zero to do with gender identity. Zero. If for some weird reason consensus eventually forms to block, then I won't wheel war, but a unilateral block based on a faulty reading of the topic ban is not cool. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, I think it might've been better for you to express your opinion here rather than move immediately to unblock. Your note in the block log about process is a reasonable bone to pick, but from your expanded statement here it seems like you unblocked because you disagree with the decision not the process of reaching a consensus. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (directed at everyone, not just AM) Please take the 5 minutes to read thru the previous topic ban discussions Bradv linked to. There was never any problem related to gender identity brought up. There were substantial problems related to editing on anatomy and sexuality topics within the scope of a broader medical topic, mostly due to competence in that area. The topic ban is worded the way it is because we're imperfect humans, and a precise topic ban that is not too broad and not too narrow is hard to craft. It is possible that based on the current wording, this might be a topic ban violation (I strongly disagree, because sexuality and gender are different things, but I can see how some might see it). But it is impossible that the topic ban was intended to cover this situation. In such a circumstance, it is vital that a consensus be reached, rather than a knee jerk block. As I've said many times, people who hang out and comment a lot at ANI are nuts, so it's possible a consensus for a block will develop, and in that case I'll be powerless to prevent it. But I still hold out some hope that people will actually read the original topic ban discussions, rather than try to play "gotcha" to punish someone who published a moronic essay, and realize this was a misinterpretation of the topic ban. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, I read through those discussions before starting this thread, including the long and protracted disputes with other editors which preceded the topic ban. It never occurred to me that someone would argue that gender identity is not covered under the term "sexuality", especially considering the "broadly construed" part. Bradv🍁 18:27, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bradv: Gender identity can indeed be covered by "sexuality", but not in this context in which the topic ban is restricted to health and medical topics. I've explained my thinking below. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, I read through those discussions before starting this thread, including the long and protracted disputes with other editors which preceded the topic ban. It never occurred to me that someone would argue that gender identity is not covered under the term "sexuality", especially considering the "broadly construed" part. Bradv🍁 18:27, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- For a short block, where there is little risk of continuing editing problems, it's not unusual to unblock the editor while a block is reviewed. Otherwise the editor may experience a significant portion of the block even if ultimately cleared of wrongdoing. isaacl (talk) 20:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (directed at everyone, not just AM) Please take the 5 minutes to read thru the previous topic ban discussions Bradv linked to. There was never any problem related to gender identity brought up. There were substantial problems related to editing on anatomy and sexuality topics within the scope of a broader medical topic, mostly due to competence in that area. The topic ban is worded the way it is because we're imperfect humans, and a precise topic ban that is not too broad and not too narrow is hard to craft. It is possible that based on the current wording, this might be a topic ban violation (I strongly disagree, because sexuality and gender are different things, but I can see how some might see it). But it is impossible that the topic ban was intended to cover this situation. In such a circumstance, it is vital that a consensus be reached, rather than a knee jerk block. As I've said many times, people who hang out and comment a lot at ANI are nuts, so it's possible a consensus for a block will develop, and in that case I'll be powerless to prevent it. But I still hold out some hope that people will actually read the original topic ban discussions, rather than try to play "gotcha" to punish someone who published a moronic essay, and realize this was a misinterpretation of the topic ban. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, I think it might've been better for you to express your opinion here rather than move immediately to unblock. Your note in the block log about process is a reasonable bone to pick, but from your expanded statement here it seems like you unblocked because you disagree with the decision not the process of reaching a consensus. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The links establish that this is a clear topic ban violation. This action, taking an essay which had 33 views in the 89 days prior to Signpost publication, and choosing to publish it in a place that has now spilled across multiple parts of Wikipedia, and indeed the broader Wikimedia project, shows why that ban was appropriate. This was a bad unblock - if a sysop had chosen to block for a topic ban violation, as indeed is in their toolset even absent a community discussion, that too would have been appropriate. Saying that no such action can be taken because the problem was pointed out in a community space is a poor use of sysop discretion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (multiple ecs) I obviously disagree that it was a faulty reading of a topic ban, and I do not need a community consensus to block, but I am not going to wheel-war either.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not a t-ban vio. The article is about grammar choices not medical and health, or sexuality as it relates to medical & health. Atsme✍🏻📧 17:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The essay is about personal gender identity, not "grammar choices", and is deeply rooted in sexuality and sexual expression. The language of the ban makes clear that this topic is covered, thus it was a violation, and the subsequent clarifications indicate that this ban covers the entire project, not that there is an exotic exemption because it's the Signpost. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, I disagree. Sexuality and gender are definitely two separate things. While the Signpost article is unfunny and stupid, I don't see it as a violation of the topic ban. Nihlus 20:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The essay is about personal gender identity, not "grammar choices", and is deeply rooted in sexuality and sexual expression. The language of the ban makes clear that this topic is covered, thus it was a violation, and the subsequent clarifications indicate that this ban covers the entire project, not that there is an exotic exemption because it's the Signpost. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Per Atsme ——SerialNumber54129 17:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
How about unblock, and extend the TBAN to include everything on Wikipedia?Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Good block, obvious t-ban violation, and if she does not even understand that (or that the "joke" which, as Cullen so eloquently explained here, is an instance of punching the weak for the lulz) I question whether she is competent to interact constructively at all. This is vile. --bonadea contributions talk 17:33, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- TBan violation per Ivanvector but meh about the block. Unless and until there's a pattern of her skirting boundaries; a block was (probably) overreaching. ∯WBGconverse 17:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- See Bradv's links. Each of those long discussions was a result of her testing the edges of her restriction, and here we are again. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The TBAN was stated as "health and medical topics, including anatomy and sexuality, broadly construed" i.e. the TBAN includes "sexuality broadly construed", not some odd spin alonge "medical sexuality" that somehow (very oddly and in a way unrelated to medical English or plain English usage) might exclude "social sexuality". The "pronouns" essay opens with the author stating their "personal pronoun" and includes towards the end that the discussion is more than, therefore must include "social gender preference". It is not possible to find a definition of "gender preference" that is not built on a person's sexuality. The essay is not some esoteric discussion about pure grammar, it specifically defines itself by these relationships to sexuality.
- There can be no logical doubt, this "humour" essay was within the scope of the TBAN. --Fæ (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Question is it common practice to block long term, established users before they've had a chance to respond or clarify? Good unblock. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) It was apparently a question to me, and it was a loaded question - but, well, 72h is not long-term, this was not the first block (this is why it is 72h and not 24h), and she did react before I blocked her - and she also reacted after the unblock, but she still did not care to either come here or write on her talk page why this was not a topic ban violation.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Barbara asked for clarification here and instead of providing any, you blocked her. It doesn't matter how long you blocked for, it was a bad block. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for your opinion, but I still disagree.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, please answer the question. Is it common practice to block long term, established users when they request clarification, instead of clarifying? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I do not answer loaded questions.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why did you block instead of clarifying, especially when Barbara asked for more details? It’s a simple question. You are responsible for your bad block, so please justify it. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Still loaded. We need one more iteration.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Barbara asked for clarification. Instead, you blocked her, without offering any clarification. Why? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Great, thank you for properly formulating the question. The point is that this was not the first violation. She has been there before, she was topic-banned, she was already been dragged to ANI for topic ban violation (blocked and later unblocked). From established users we expect that they, after being properly warned, understand what is going on. Otherwise one can always prevent a block by asking what is wrong and requesting clarifications. To me it looked like an obvious TB violation, and I applied a block. If it turned out that I clearly misread the situation, for example, as it was suggested here, she did not publish the essay, she could have clarified this before or after the block, and I could have unblocked. In addition, this is not a justification, but she is active but did not address the block at all, which is usually taken as a sign that she does not have a good response.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Barbara asked for clarification. Instead, you blocked her, without offering any clarification. Why? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Still loaded. We need one more iteration.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why did you block instead of clarifying, especially when Barbara asked for more details? It’s a simple question. You are responsible for your bad block, so please justify it. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I do not answer loaded questions.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, please answer the question. Is it common practice to block long term, established users when they request clarification, instead of clarifying? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for your opinion, but I still disagree.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Barbara asked for clarification here and instead of providing any, you blocked her. It doesn't matter how long you blocked for, it was a bad block. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) It was apparently a question to me, and it was a loaded question - but, well, 72h is not long-term, this was not the first block (this is why it is 72h and not 24h), and she did react before I blocked her - and she also reacted after the unblock, but she still did not care to either come here or write on her talk page why this was not a topic ban violation.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- The Signpost article in questions showed some fantastically poor judgement, and should probably have never been written, but I can't see where it actually violates the terms or spirit of this topic ban. I find no reason to sanction further. If this sort of thing becomes a pattern, we can revisit the idea of a different topic ban. But this, as bad as it is, does not substantively violate the existing ban. --Jayron32 17:55, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (1) It was a failure of this user to use an account named XXX(WVS) for anything except from Pitt-business i.e. business related to Wikipedia versus University of Pittsburgh. (2) It was a failure of ourselves to allow any editor who is not a scholar to use an account named Wikipedia Visiting Scholar, instead of [Wikipedia Visiting Corn Flakes Eater]. (3) I am not sure of what is said by
Barbara... has been a Visiting Scholar ... since 2015
. I would prefer B. is a VS from 2015 or B. has been a VS from 2015 until xxx. (4) the initial ban was related to misreading or misunderstanding sources, to the point ofinserting errors which lead to readers self-treating their animals and causing them harm
. (5) Here, the risk of misreading an empty set of sources seems equal to 0, while identifying gender and sexuality in order to justify a block seems questionable. Pldx1 (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also agree with Atsme. This was (an attempt at) humour about grammar. It fell flat, and is hopefully going to be deleted, but that doesn't make it blockworthy. At no point does the unfortunate article refer to anyone's sexuality. This is no more about sexuality than that bacterium she wrote the last article about and was blocked for was about medicine. Yes, this is about pronouns, which are associated with gender, which is associated with sexuality, but at that distance, pretty much everything is associated with sexuality, from clothing (because it can be sexy), to cigars (remember Sigmund Freud!) to food (don't even ask...). If this falls under sexuality broadly construed, then Barbara can not edit any articles about people who are believed to ever have sex (or never have sex), people who have children (or don't have children), etc., or pretty much anything that people do (Chess! No, because that is all about mating...) and might as well give up and go home. Also, it was done days ago, she hasn't been involved in the foofarah since, and blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. --GRuban (talk) 18:02, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's not just about pronouns, even if that was in the mind of Barbara though. Saying "just about..." something denies the very real, and deliberate, use of language to dehumanize people throughout history. Specifically with transgender people, to use the wrong pronoun to describe them is a deliberate and intentional act to delegitimize the concept of being transgender. This is not merely a grammatical issue, because the use of grammar has been used as a tool specifically by bigoted people to dehumanize and delegitimize the other for a very long time. I have no idea if that was the author's intent here, I can only say that it is the intent of most people who came before them and did similar things. --Jayron32 18:12, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, and it is an attempt at humour that was badly misjudged. But that alone does not make it a topic ban violation - my thoughts below. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- That other people use it this way is a fine argument for deleting the essay. It's a terrible argument for blocking Barbara. --GRuban (talk) 18:17, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hang on, "gender preference" as used in the essay, is not directly part of sexuality, despite every reliable source where it is defined, it is? This is dabbling with sophistry a bit too far to be credible. --Fæ (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If someone starts talking about pronouns, I'm probably going to assume it has something to do with transgenderism, not to mention the "identify as" bit. If someonementions enchiladas, I will not immediately imagine their sexual potential, I'm just going to want enchiladas; that's a false equivalency. This isn't about sexuality as much as Animal Farm isn't about communism. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × many) This is a ridiculous argument. Of course there are many topics that might touch on conversations of a sexual nature (Rule 34 is a thing) but that's way off from a topic which has a specific sexual association. One's gender and choice of expression is directly linked to sexuality, intrinsically and inseparably. Some people get off on Sailor Moon but it's not a sexuality topic by any definition. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Look at the number of people who disagree right in this conversation. You advocate that she should have known it to be perfectly obvious, when so many here don't? --GRuban (talk) 18:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- There are a number of people here whose opinions on gender and sexuality are bewildering and insensitive, yes. The fact that some people for whom it's never been an issue think that it cannot possibly be an issue for anybody is enlightening, though it is not surprising. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:36, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × far too many, compounded by a slow connection) The majority of the debate is "does the topic ban actually cover sexuality in all aspects, or rather does it only matter when it is sexuality relating to medicine?" NOT "is this essay about sexuality?" which almost everyone agrees that yes, it is. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Look at the number of people who disagree right in this conversation. You advocate that she should have known it to be perfectly obvious, when so many here don't? --GRuban (talk) 18:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's not just about pronouns, even if that was in the mind of Barbara though. Saying "just about..." something denies the very real, and deliberate, use of language to dehumanize people throughout history. Specifically with transgender people, to use the wrong pronoun to describe them is a deliberate and intentional act to delegitimize the concept of being transgender. This is not merely a grammatical issue, because the use of grammar has been used as a tool specifically by bigoted people to dehumanize and delegitimize the other for a very long time. I have no idea if that was the author's intent here, I can only say that it is the intent of most people who came before them and did similar things. --Jayron32 18:12, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a topic ban violation here. Having been active over the topic ban itself and knowing the actual editing conflicts that led to it, I read "health and medical topics, including anatomy and sexuality, broadly construed" as covering sexuality in any way related to health and medical topics. And this humour page (which, in my opinion widely missed the mark, sorry) does not come close to health and medical topics or to anything remotely close to the actual issues which led to the topic ban. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just to put it in a slightly different way, when it says "health and medical topics, including..." that defines the superset for broadly construed and any of the subordinate included sub-topics are constrained by being part of health and medical topics. It's not health and medical topics AND sexuality, it's sexuality where it forms a subset of health and medical topics. And the humour thing is not a subset of health and medical topics. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- +1 as per Atsme - I'm not seeing a violation here either. –Davey2010Talk 18:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment it probably violates the topic-ban on a technicality, but Wikipedia doesn't run based on technicalities. Regardless of whether the topic-ban is violated, some action may be needed. I still remember Electrical disruptions caused by squirrels. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't even violate it on a technicality. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- It probably doesn't. –Davey2010Talk 20:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Barbara started this article with content about Nominative determinism. She then copied User:SMcCandlish/It to the Signpost. With no further significant contributions (the rest is editorial). I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the topic ban, since she didn't actually write the content. It does seem to be a technical violation though, in my opinion, since she edited a page relating to the topic ban. Without digging into Wikilawyering territory, I therefore think that it was a hasty (but justifiable, just perhaps not justified) block, a good unblock, and worthwhile discussing here. I have no opinion on further action warranted at this time. Anyway, that's just my 2 ¢. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- NB. I read the scope of the ban differently to Boing! said Zebedee, as I view the including as an Inclusive or. That's probably just the programmer in me. I can agree with SerialNumber54129 about this being about as clear as mud, and more sticky. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:47, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I'm a programmer too (at least an ex-programmer) and I read it in the context of having been there at the time, having known the actual problems which led to the topic ban, and having understood the entirely medical nature of the problem areas and of the ban extent. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: How dare you inject facts, understanding, and topically specific experience into an festival of self-righteous outrage by people making assumptions about what something meant instead of actually reading it? Shame on you! — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I'm a programmer too (at least an ex-programmer) and I read it in the context of having been there at the time, having known the actual problems which led to the topic ban, and having understood the entirely medical nature of the problem areas and of the ban extent. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- What Boing said. -A lad insane(Channel 2) 18:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Barbara made a bad decision here in putting her name to that article. The best thing she could do, for the good of Wikipedia (I originally wrote "for her own good" here, but that seemed rather patronising), would be voluntarily to do something other than edit Wikipedia over the weekend. If she does that then it doesn't matter if she's blocked or not. There's a whole world out there to explore, so just take a break. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- No ban - I'd be inclined to not think there was a breach, as not the actual writer of the material. Perhaps unwise, but not a substantive breach of the TBAN. I also think that the block was hasty, in the sense that if the "breaches" were going to be in this form (no restarting of mainspace editing), the 72hr block couldn't possible be preventative and certainly didn't need immediate enacting pre ANI, as no Signpost editing would take place within that time slot. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Violation. If her name is on the article (it's the first in the byline), and it mentions "social gender preference" etc., then it's a violation of the TBan, which includes the words "broadly construed". (NB: Yesterday I !voted to "Keep" the essay.)Softlavender (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2019 (UTC); edited 06:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)- Let's see. An editor banned from sexuality related topics wrote/posted/something-ed an essay making fun of pronoun choices. Gender identity is definitely a part of human sexuality and therefore this is a violation. That said, the sort of insensitivity shown in the essay is not uncommon so, perhaps, we should just give this whole thing a pass (assuming that the essay itself is deleted or somehow vanished). How much drama do we really need? --regentspark (comment) 21:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment having read both the previous topic ban discussion and the signpost column, it's clear to me that this isn't a violation of the original topic ban, which was originally imposed strictly as a result of competency issues and which encompassed sexuality in the context of medicine. If a broader topic ban is desired by the majority of people here then that's cool and all, but the cognitive dissonance I'm seeing here is a bit worrying. I should also note that the three-day ban of this user was completely unnecessary. Elspamo4 (talk) 21:56, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support action. This was incredibly ill-considered and frankly outright polemic screed that is so mind-bogglingly beyond a legitimate WP:HERE purpose (and so certain to cause a furor) that I can't fathom how two longterm editors could think this was an appropriate thing to publish anywhere on the project. You know, for the last couple of years I have occasionally come across people griping that the signpost was becoming a problem and that no one was awake at the wheel for the editorial process, and I've just dismissed it as hyperbolic griping (I personally think the publication has served as a vital community role) but something like this really raises questions.
- For the record, if you look, you can find plenty of examples of me pushing back on problematic efforts on policy talk pages and at VP to liberalize our style guidelines to allow for idiosyncratic pronouns in Wikipedia's voice, so I can try to assume that something like that inspired this pugnacious rant masquerading as "good humour", but even a half second's thought by a veteran editor should have revealed how this was likely to be interpreted as a blanket attack/gripe about certain notions on gender identity broadly and how utterly inappropriate this is under any of half dozen principles of WP:WWIN. Frankly, I'd like to see SMC admonished on this as well; he's a stellar contributor and a workhorse in numerous of our policy areas, but this speaks of incredibly poor forward thought and understanding of WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:NOTFREESPEECH, at a minimum. As for Barbara, yes, this certainly falls squarely within the topic ban, and I support the previous block and would consider supporting further measures necessary to draw a line in the sand regarding the pushing the boundaries of said ban. Utterly un-wikiprofessional; I can't think of any other way to describe this. Snow let's rap 00:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're just making up patently false accusations about the content and intent. This is covered in great detail at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, and at WT:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, so I won't go over it all again here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oh? What have I "made up" exactly? I haven't done anything but provide my feedback on details which don't seem to be in dispute between you and the numerous people above and at the Signpost page who are standing aghast at your polemic rant there, so I don't see where I even had a chance a construct a falsehood? Care to back that up with something more substantive? You know, I wasn't being disingenuous when I said that you are a super productive editor and one valued by myself personally, but your response to this whole situation is not a flattering look for you. I'm not just concerned you're digging a hole for yourself here, I'm worried you're determined to do it with dynamite. Snow let's rap 04:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Repeat: "This is covered in great detail at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, and at WT:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, so I won't go over it all again here.". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oh? What have I "made up" exactly? I haven't done anything but provide my feedback on details which don't seem to be in dispute between you and the numerous people above and at the Signpost page who are standing aghast at your polemic rant there, so I don't see where I even had a chance a construct a falsehood? Care to back that up with something more substantive? You know, I wasn't being disingenuous when I said that you are a super productive editor and one valued by myself personally, but your response to this whole situation is not a flattering look for you. I'm not just concerned you're digging a hole for yourself here, I'm worried you're determined to do it with dynamite. Snow let's rap 04:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're just making up patently false accusations about the content and intent. This is covered in great detail at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, and at WT:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, so I won't go over it all again here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The editor's topic ban is constrained to health and medical topics (including sexuality within that context). Even if it were not, the essay in question has nothing to do with "...sexuality, broadly construed". It is about and only about abuse of the English language in non-neutral ways to push unencyclopedic wording into our articles, including trademark and logo over-stylization, injection of honorifics for religious reasons, and use of neologistic pronoun replacements (xie, hirs, etc.) in Wikipedia's own voice. That the last of these has something to do with identity politics is entirely incidental (this is about editors defying WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, and WP:MOS to make our material hard to understand for their own personal or organizational reasons). Gender identity matters being confused with sexual preferences is a common error but it is an error, as everyone familiar with these topic spaces already knows and understands very well. Also, Barbara was not a co-author of the material (which long pre-dated the Signpost use, as a userspace essay), but simply did a compression pass on it. This thread should be closed without action as utterly wide of its mark, in multiple ways. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Context matters. The topic ban revolves around "health and medicine" and anatomy and sexuality in that context. The satirical essay is concerned with language, titles, and pronouns. There was no violation. The block was hasty, the unblock good, and should stand. Jonathunder (talk) 04:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Having read more closely the nature of the topic ban, and the views of those who instituted it, and the important distinctions re: medicine and health, I now view this as not a violation (especially since she apparently didn't write any of it. We had this same sort of debate when someone under a medical and health TBan edited articles on veterinary medicine. The consensus was that a TBan about health and medicine did not apply to veterinary medicine, and only applied to human health. In the same fashion, I view Barbara's topic ban as regarding health and medicine, not linguistic preferences regarding one's personal pronouns. Softlavender (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Canvassing: People were non-neutrally canvassed [195] by Fæ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to come vote for a block/ban here, on the basis that people are wikilaywering over "lack of common understanding of words like 'gender'" (which is not what this is about, but whether a topic ban about health and medical material can be extended that far). It also and included a claim that a topic-ban violation was determined to have occurred [196], which is simply an outright falsehood, as this discussion is still running and leaning far away from that interpretation. I've opened a separate ANI thread about this, as there was a whole lot of other canvassing by the same editor, and this new canvassing was done after calls to stop, and after a prior very lengthy topic-ban for the same behavior. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Response by Barbara Page
I have read and then read again Scott's essay. I think I made some small edits while preparing the piece. But since I pasted the content to the Signpost's Humour article draft page I can take the blame. I originally put Scott's name first, but someone else went in to change it...so what, the details really don't matter.
I am a little Pollyanna-like because I have also seen situations where people struggle with pronouns. I struggle with words. Words-not people or people groups. I see myself playing right field, making daisy chains while everyone else bustles around doing what people do during a baseball game. The whole Signpost article is about pronouns. As a 'paster' of the essay into the Signpost work space, I saw nothing in the contribution that was anything close to violating my topic ban. My context for finding the struggle with pronouns came from a great friendship with a WP editor who is an actual linguist. We talked about pronouns for two hours once. People groups were never the issue with us. I asked her about some quirks in English and she gave me great insight. Where are you seeing something that smacks of other things? I don't see it. Of course and comments get lengthier and lengthier it is undeniable that I am in the minority. I am also a wife married to a man. I have many in my family who are not like me. I have been married for 39 years. I have six grown children and six grandchildren. They get to choose their pronouns. I am very sorry to have caused so many editors to become agitated. I like the 72 hours break. I might be editing in other wikis if you are looking for me.
- Best Regards, Barbara ✐✉ 22:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I strongly suspect that before trying out any other humour in the Signpost, you run it by someone else first. We don't need jokes by committee, but this was reasonably easy to identify as a drama magnet. Guy(Help!) 23:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Speaking of strong opinions, you have a new incoming link to your tiger essay. Regarding this month's humor, I'll say it seemed obvious to this Signpost reader who the main author wasn't. 🍣 — SashiRolls t · c 19:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I strongly suspect that before trying out any other humour in the Signpost, you run it by someone else first. We don't need jokes by committee, but this was reasonably easy to identify as a drama magnet. Guy(Help!) 23:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: I don't really care about blocks, topic-bans, or any sanctions but just commenting on the merits of the underlying situation: this signpost piece was a poor piece of writing; the fact that it underwent review and still got published exposed some blindspots in the process; and the subsequent missing-the-point defensiveness/justification seen in the authors' replies has been really disappointing (the piece had as much to do with "struggle with pronouns" as Gamergate had to do with "ethics in journalism"). For those wishing to wash off the bad taste: look at this as an (off-wikipedia) example of appropriately thoughful response to another piece of poorly written and insufficiently reviewed content. We can do better. Abecedare (talk) 23:35, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Question: Why are Signpost articles being misattributed? If Barbara did not write even one word of the article, why is her name anywhere on it? Honestly, this is the oddest thing of all, to me. One should reasonably expect in an encyclopedia and all of its publications that authorship is correctly and accurately identified. Softlavender (talk) 05:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Beats me. I just assumed it was some kind of "thing that Signpost does. Maybe because Barbara added a picture to it? The title the Signpost used was certainly not my idea. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:44, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Proposed action
Not going to happen. ansh666 18:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Given that Barbara (WVS), in her comment above, is forceful that though editors are very agitated, she hasn't committed any mistake ("I saw nothing in the contribution that was anything close to violating my topic ban. "
). Does it mean that a similar disruption may occur again? I leave it to the community to decide, with the proposed action:
- Barbara (WVS) is indefinitely blocked until they confirm that they will respect the conditions of their TBAN, broadly construed, with no exceptions
- Support as proposer. Lourdes 05:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as, basically, off-topic nonsense, for all the reasons covered above. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:05, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ehh.. I'm inclined to say that's probably not the way forward here (and anyway, I don't think the above forecasts that result). Obviously you can tell from my comments above that I am concerned here, as are others. But jumping straight to indef without giving Barbara the benefit of the doubt that they would comply with the TBAN if it were made explicit by the community that it covers issues of gender identity? (Should that prove to be consensus as I think is likely to be the outcome, also per above). No, I think that's not the ideal solution. She has a genuinely reasonable argument to make that she shouldn't have been expected to know that. You or I or others may think its so obvious that she should have assumed as much, but I personally think WP:AGFing on her assertion that it was a good-faith mistake is right approach. Clear guidance will give Barbara a chance to prove a willingness to avoid the area sincerely, or it will give the community the evidence needed to see that she won't. That's my preference insofar as the remedy for the issue with Barbara and the TBAN. Snow let's rap 06:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Absolutely no need for this draconian measure. There's not even agreement that the TBan was violated. What is in fact needed is more clarity about the parameters of the TBan, from those administrators and other editors who were present in the discussions and events leading up to it. Softlavender (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Hell no. I personally think that she borderline-violated her TBan but there does not seem to be a consensus among uninvolved editors. ∯WBGconverse 06:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose It seems a matter of opinion, but for me Barbara's actions weren't even a TBan violation, per Atsme & Elspamo4. FeydHuxtable (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. This takes broadly construed to "health and medical topics, including anatomy and sexuality, broadly construed" - and extends it to outer space. Pronouns are linguistics - and minor copyediting / copy-pasting into a newspaper (as opposed to actual article content) - is also somewhat broadly construed to Wikipedia. Should The Signpost run off-site so that Wiki limitations do not apply? Icewhiz (talk) 09:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Obviously Oppose as there has been no topic ban breach. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'll just add that, while the publication of that piece has offended quite a few people (and I do think it was a mistake), a lot of the responses I'm seeing look very much like attempts to punish everyone involved (and even some who weren't involved) as harshly as possible, using every means and every venue possible. That's not the way we're supposed to do things here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:37, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Barbara did nothing wrong. I'm ashamed that Bradv, whom I had defended when he was scapegoated over the Strickland affair, is now stretching Barbara's topic ban beyond reason in order to punish her for political thoughtcrime. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - I echo everyone above the TBAN was not in any way, shape or form breached, I would strongly suggest this is speedy closed. –Davey2010Talk 14:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as the topic ban was not violated. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 15:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per GBartlett & CTroutman. ——SerialNumber54129 15:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Nobody seemed to notice this yet
Extended content | ||
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Fæ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was indeffed then later topic-banned by ArbCom from "sexuality, broadly construed" (including gender-related activism) from 2012 to 2017 (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ), for incivility and aspersion-casting, as well as canvassing and forum-shopped in this topic area. Very recently, the editor was back at ANI, again for canvassing about gender (technically off-site meatpuppetry), though ArbCom remanded the matter back to the community for further examination [205]; I'm not sure if any was ever undertaken.
Today, Fæ non-neutrally canvassed [206] editors to come vote for a block/ban at ANI against an editor of something Fæ disagrees with (on a gender identity topic), on the false basis that people are wikilaywering over "lack of common understanding of words like 'gender'" (which is not what that ANI is about, but whether a topic ban about health and medical material can be extended that far). This multi-round canvassing also included a claim that a topic-ban violation by that party was already determined to have occurred [207], which is an outright falsehood, as that discussion (#Violation of topic ban by Barbara (WVS), above) is still running and leaning far away from that interpretation.
Just previously, Fæ also non-neutrally (with various uncivil false accusations, including of transphobia) canvassed people, across multiple WMF projects [208][209][210], to the discussion in which this new canvassing to ANI occurred. The newer canvassing happened after multiple editors called on Fæ to stop canvassing and forum-shopping and being uncivil [211][212][213][214][215]. Both rounds of canvassing also included pointed character assassination attempts and severe distortions of the nature of the material under discussion.
It's thus time for a separate re-examination Fæ's behavior, especially given that the topic ban was provisionally suspended (in Dec. 2016) only on the understanding that these behaviors would not resume. They clearly have continued in exactly the same vein.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The very best possible outcome from any additional discussion about this fiasco would be if SMcCandlish would stop repeating him/her/itself over and over and OVER again. My gosh! How fond you must be of your never ending and incredibly tedious repetitiveness! Cullen328Let's discuss it 07:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Um, this is the first time I've mentioned this canvassing and incivility at any noticeboard, the actual venue for it. The only other noticeboard mention of it was afterward, as a cross-reference from the other ANI case mentioned herein. This is about Fæ's behavior pattern and its relationship to sanction-lifting conditions, not about the socio-politics of the topic about which Fæ is canvassing and casting aspersions, nor how much discussion the topic generates. Please stay on-topic. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC); revised — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: The length and breadth of the evidence and the persistence of the behavior despite warnings seem to indicate that Fæ needs a reinstatement of the TBan. Or perhaps another trip to ArbCom. This seems to be a pattern only remedied by an enforced TBan. Softlavender (talk) 07:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (ec, some difficulty replying here, I may need to reformat)
- Putting a note in small text against the MfD, explaining why the editor named in the nomination has probably been unable to take part and that they were already blocked, does not fit the definition of canvassing, as far as I am aware. It was intended as relevant information, not an invite for anyone to rush to ANI with a particular view.
- Writing an untargeted email to Wikimedia-l, not direct emails or notes, summarizing why the Signpost "humour" essay was alarming for the community does not fit the definition of "Stealth canvassing" for sending off wiki emails. This has been discussed very recently in an Arbcom case after a post on Twitter (nothing whatsoever to do with "gender identity" or sexuality as I recall, just a question of whether an open Twitter post could ever be called canvassing), and was rejected with a variety of views including members of Arbcom and ex-Arbcom members stating that writing on Twitter openly, rather than direct messaging of individuals, was act of free speech that Wikipedia should not be attempting to control. Should the Canvassing guidelines change, I will be happy to fully comply with them. If I have misunderstood how the "stealth canvassing" guidelines are to be read, I will be happy to comply with any consensus for their interpretation and apologise. I note that in practice it is highly unlikely that my more general note about the offensive Signpost "humour" essay has had any effect on the MfD, because it was neither targeted towards any particular group (like a gendergap group) and was intended to be a summary of fact only.
- With regard to the claim of "false accusations, including of transphobia", I have never stated that SMcCandlish is a transphobe or has transphobia. I have stated that the Signpost "humour" essay on pronouns appeared transphobic, and I am happy to explicitly list and quote the very many very well established Wikipedians that have stated the article is "transphobic", "bigotry", "transphobic rants" etc. I hesitate to do that here as evidence, because no doubt someone will claim pinging anyone else would be is canvassing, but these opinions are openly and fairly expressed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour and SMcCandlish should add them as parties to this claim if there is a problem with me making the precise same statement of fact.
- I note that SMcCandish has stated this ANI thread with claims against me at the top of the MfD, next to a statement that my addendum explaining why Barbara (WVS) probably had been unable to take part was for " for politicized reasons". This in untrue. They also stated "You're going to end up there yourself real soon now", which looks like using inappropriate threats of taking people to ANI to create drama.[216]
- Despite my multiple invitations to discuss matters on my talk page, a genuine invitation, rather than creating drama and derailing the MfD with tangential claims about me, which are irrelevant to the facts of the nomination, they have refused to do so.
- Despite my attempt at Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour to get feedback by asking
- It would be useful to have some feedback here on how critics of this "humorous essay" can fairly complain, including the deletion discussion, and which words they are allowed to use or not use in compliance with Wikipedia policies. One of the authors SMcCandlish has repeatedly responded as if what is intended as criticism of the article were a personal attack, so it would benefit everyone to be clear about what is reasonable criticism allowed in comments or the MfD. Many participants in the MfD have already stated that the article appears transphobic and intended to cause offense, some of those contributors have also identified as trans or genderqueer, which you may see as giving them a special perspective on appropriate use of related language or "humour", maybe not.
- SMcCandish has refused to say anything there. Instead they have gone to ANI rather than make any attempt to discuss their assertions, even though they stated "despite my distaste for the dramaboards".
- It seems relevant to note that the WMF have for the first time refused allow a notification of the publication of Signpost on WikimediaAnnounce-l, due to:
- We received multiple reports of concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019 edition of the Signpost
- When the Wikimedia Foundation have been forced to act due to SMcCandlish's unnecessary drama, forced to take the extreme step of censoring the release of Signpost due to SMcCandlish's views, and have received multiple complaints off-wiki, I think it is obvious that the issue here is more with SMcCandlish's view of Wikipedia's policies, understanding of civility and what is "transphobic" than mine.
- Thanks --Fæ (talk) 07:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bottom line: SMcCandish posted a very offensive "humor" essay at the Signpost, mocking transgender advocates of innovative pronouns. Entirely predictably, many editors expressed outrage and a smaller but significant number expressed support. SMcCandish proceeded to bludgeon every discussion about the controversy, repeating the same arguments over and over and over again. Fæ emerged as the most incisive critic of SMcCandish's stick-wielding behavior. Now, SMcCandish wants to silence their most effective critic. The funny thing is that I agree with SMcCandish about the pronoun issue, but I completely disagree with every single aspect of their bullying tactics in this bizarre episode. Cullen328Let's discuss it 07:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- This isn't about whether you agree with my essay and its inclusion in the Signpost (someone else's decision), it's about Fæ's disruptive behavior – for which they were previously long-term banned – in an attempt to WP:WIN a content dispute in the same topic area as their recently-ended ban. However, in point of fact, there is no consensus that the essay was offensive (both MfDs are on-going and with diverse input). Fæ has not been an effective critic at all (every argument they've advanced has been rebutted, by many others not just me), and has not addressed "discussion behavior" by me, but simply engaged in "transphobic" aspersion-casting about something I wrote. Basically, you're just making stuff up out of nowhere. Also, it not possible for your claim that I'm over-discussing and for Fæ's claim, "gone to ANI rather than make any attempt to discuss", to both be true. In reality, I'm discussing, and other people are discussing, and many of them were non-neutrally canvassed by Fæ, and Fæ is being ANIed because they ignored numerous warnings about disruption. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: there have been no warnings of any kind whatsoever on my user talk page. If you or anyone else wishes to warn me about anything, my talk page is the starting point. --Fæ (talk) 08:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:WIKILAWYER and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY; there is no magical loophole for you to exploit. When multiple editors have raised the same concerns with you, in discussions in which you are the most frequent participant on one side of the discussion (by a wide margin), and you continue the policy-violating behavior, no talk page notice is required. You've received the ANI talk notice, which is required, and that is sufficient. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: there have been no warnings of any kind whatsoever on my user talk page. If you or anyone else wishes to warn me about anything, my talk page is the starting point. --Fæ (talk) 08:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- This isn't about whether you agree with my essay and its inclusion in the Signpost (someone else's decision), it's about Fæ's disruptive behavior – for which they were previously long-term banned – in an attempt to WP:WIN a content dispute in the same topic area as their recently-ended ban. However, in point of fact, there is no consensus that the essay was offensive (both MfDs are on-going and with diverse input). Fæ has not been an effective critic at all (every argument they've advanced has been rebutted, by many others not just me), and has not addressed "discussion behavior" by me, but simply engaged in "transphobic" aspersion-casting about something I wrote. Basically, you're just making stuff up out of nowhere. Also, it not possible for your claim that I'm over-discussing and for Fæ's claim, "gone to ANI rather than make any attempt to discuss", to both be true. In reality, I'm discussing, and other people are discussing, and many of them were non-neutrally canvassed by Fæ, and Fæ is being ANIed because they ignored numerous warnings about disruption. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) When multiple editors point out you (Fæ) are non-neutrally canvassing and being incivil and you continue to do it anyway, then there is no alternative but dramaboards. You were warned repeatedly that this behavior continuing would lead here; such warnings are routine and are not threats. Your claim that I have "refused to say anything there" at WT:Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour is an obvious fabrication, since I even responded directly [217] to the very comment you quote at excessive length above. Finally, your claim to have only said that things seemed transphobic to you is disproved by the diffs already provided; you claimed that the are transphobic and have continued in an incessant WP:IDHT anti-WP:AGF pattern to maintain this position even after being shown otherwise (frequently enough that Cullen328 complained). See WP:SANCTIONGAMING; you can't be as bad-faith assumptive as you want just by tweaking your wording slightly. Statements can't have a phobia since statements don't have brains; a claim that something is transphobic, without evidence, is necessarily WP:ASPERSIONS against the editor. The rest of your text-wall is just more hand-waving. "Do not look at the man behind the curtain."
PS: I got edit-conflicted while you added the WMF statement. Whether WMF wants to put up a CYA notice (and you're badly mischaracterizing what they said, which is nothing but acknowledgement of receipt of allegations) is completely irrelevant to the question here, which is whether your repeated canvassing and incivility – after multi-editor opposition to your canvassing and incivility – is grounds for re-instatement of your topic ban, which was for the same behavior in the same topic. Let's pretend you're right, and that I'm really a transphobic monster in disguise; what you're been doing is still wrong and still grounds for re-instatement of your ban.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bottom line: SMcCandish posted a very offensive "humor" essay at the Signpost, mocking transgender advocates of innovative pronouns. Entirely predictably, many editors expressed outrage and a smaller but significant number expressed support. SMcCandish proceeded to bludgeon every discussion about the controversy, repeating the same arguments over and over and over again. Fæ emerged as the most incisive critic of SMcCandish's stick-wielding behavior. Now, SMcCandish wants to silence their most effective critic. The funny thing is that I agree with SMcCandish about the pronoun issue, but I completely disagree with every single aspect of their bullying tactics in this bizarre episode. Cullen328Let's discuss it 07:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, you have not once taken up any of my multiple invitations to have a civil discussion on my user talk page. Instead you have preferred to derail the MfD with a series of bullying allegations about me, which I have refused to discuss in the MfD. My talk page, not an MfD would be your starting point.
- You ignored my open invite to discuss what language was appropriate and civil for the MfD in the Signpost comments. That was highly specific, after your multiple false claims that anyone was calling you a transphobe, as opposed to your article where at least ten, maybe twenty by now, highly experienced Wikipedians have stated in black and white that it was transphobic.
- Feel free to close down this ANI request and start a discussion on my user talk page for the first time. I have zero problems with civil discussion, or for than matter reasonable civil free speech. The same free speech that you appear keen to ensure I have no access to. --Fæ (talk) 08:40, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- When multiple editors try to address your incivility and canvassing and you continue both, and have a previously sanctioned long-term-abuse history – for the same things in the same topic area – it's too late for that, and ANI is where we go. Also, it's hypocritical to bring up user talk; there is no message from you on my talk page, and you've firehosed so many nasty accusations on so many pages that any request for user-talk discussion you may have buried in any of them isn't likely to be seen, nor should anyone take it seriously. I've looked and I see no such requests, other than posts made after this ANI was opened. Also, the fact that some other editors (i.e., the ones you canvassed) were also incivil in the same way is no excuse. And they did not recently get off a topic-ban for the same behavior in the same topic. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: there have been no warnings or complaints from anyone on my user talk page. On SMcCandlish's user talk page there is a standard neutral MfD notification created by me, which is both necessary and sufficient to comply with guidelines. I have made no other action or complaint about SMcCandlish where any other notification would have been advisory or best practice. --Fæ (talk) 10:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- We've been over this already, twice [218][219]. Sticking "Factcheck:" in front of your posts does not make them more convincing. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: there have been no warnings or complaints from anyone on my user talk page. On SMcCandlish's user talk page there is a standard neutral MfD notification created by me, which is both necessary and sufficient to comply with guidelines. I have made no other action or complaint about SMcCandlish where any other notification would have been advisory or best practice. --Fæ (talk) 10:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- When multiple editors try to address your incivility and canvassing and you continue both, and have a previously sanctioned long-term-abuse history – for the same things in the same topic area – it's too late for that, and ANI is where we go. Also, it's hypocritical to bring up user talk; there is no message from you on my talk page, and you've firehosed so many nasty accusations on so many pages that any request for user-talk discussion you may have buried in any of them isn't likely to be seen, nor should anyone take it seriously. I've looked and I see no such requests, other than posts made after this ANI was opened. Also, the fact that some other editors (i.e., the ones you canvassed) were also incivil in the same way is no excuse. And they did not recently get off a topic-ban for the same behavior in the same topic. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Prediction: SMcCandlish will continue beating the dead horse, on and on and on and on and ON, ad nauseum, as if normal people are incapable of understanding their points unless they are repeated at least 37 times. Their goal is to defend themself at all costs from the obvious fact that they published an insulting and obnoxious essay on the Signpost. So sad. Cullen328Let's discuss it 08:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Translation: "I will continue saying nasty things about you, and predict that you'll defend yourself, hoping everyone's stupid enough to think my 'prediction' coming true also means that my grossly bad-faith-assuming accusations will also be mistaken for proved true." Very silly. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Be careful about allegations about character assassinations, because people can read the whole MfD, and with all these allegations from you they may think you are self-assassinating your own character, and going after the most prominent critic can be read counterproductive to you. I once did an ANI request for reinstating a TBan on an editor, and that horribly backfired on me, because that was in revenge. The same as in here, it's very easy to read as a revenge and a very poor handling of events. The best course of events, frankly, would have been happened if the MfD just ran its course without bullying Delete voters. But it's unsalvageable now. --Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 08:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not angry at Fæ for disagreeing, or holding a strong socio-political viewpoint (it's one I mostly share). I'm not appreciative of being maligned, of course, but oh well; I have tough hide. This isn't about my feelings. It's about Fæ's return to canvassing and incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes – something which does and will continue to affect other editors. I really don't expect that this ANI will close with a re-instated topic ban, but it provides diffs that will be useful if this happens again. The majority of ANIs about longer-term editors result in no action; it generally takes several in the same vein within a fairly tight time-span before the community will act. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose re-examination at this time. While good intentioned & IMO very funny, the humour piece was clearly extremely offensive, distressing, and even repellent to quite a few. Sometimes wikipedia needs someone to go on a mission to prevent this sort of nonsense being allowed to stand. Up to a point, Fæ's actions are to be applauded. That said, it would be better if in future they focussed more on playing the ball not the man. Wikipedia is not the place for launching witch-hunts, even in a good cause. FeydHuxtable (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) I apologise if anything I have written about the unfunny Signpost essay has come over as a witch hunt. My single concern in this matter has been to ensure neither Wikipedia, nor the Signpost is ever misused for what has been received by a very large number of our contributors as an attack against transgender and nonbinary people. I have no idea what is in SMcCandlish's mind, nor have I ever made any assertions about motivation and my concern is not about the person but the words being published. Considering my role in establishing the Wikimedia LGBT+ user group, I do feel I have a responsibility to take up legitimate complaints in other channels where people feel abusive or defamatory material is being promoted, and this has been one of those cases where there are many LGBT+ people who remain unwilling or frightened to make their concerns publicly on-wiki for themselves. If my own genuine worry and upset has distorted my rhetoric, rather than remaining in Vulcan-like calm, I can only apologise, I know this never helps any case of this type and I will back away from the keyboard for a while apart from where a logical fact check might be needed. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 09:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Linking a discussion from a neutral venue with very diverse readership is not inappropriate canvassing. Wikimedia-l, the Signpost and this very ANI page are seen by thousands and do not sway consensus. Otherwise, the opening of this very section would need to be considered inappropriate canvassing of the other discussion, which I may otherwise have overlooked. Nemo 09:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Notifying WT:LGBT and zero other wikiprojects was canvassing, especially given the non-neutral language. Drawing attention to the MfD at Wikimedia-L and Meta using very non-neutral language was canvassing. There is no way around this, sorry. Providing diffs to discussions is required at ANI and other noticeboards; doing so does not constitute canvassing. In short, you don't seem to have read WP:CANVASSING. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:56, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: Wikimedia LGBT studies is likely to be single most relevant wikiproject to notify about the MfD. Not long afterwards there was a notification on the Village Pump. The LGBT studies notification was shorter than the MfD nomination statement, but was not written with any intention to introduce any different type of statement. To ensure there can be no possible complaint of bias, the wording has been changed to be the full text of the MfD nomination. Nobody, including SMcCandlish, has objected to the wording of the MfD nomination or claimed it was biased. If a complaint is made, I will consider revising the nomination statement based on feedback so it is civil and expressed as fairly as possible. --Fæ (talk) 10:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just more wikilawyering and WP:SANCTIONGAMING. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I was specifically referencing "A central location (such as the Village pump or other relevant noticeboards) for discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline" (Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification). Thank you for specifying that your concern is with WT:LGBT, but 1) that qualifies as central because it has nearly a thousand watchers and 2) it's clearly the single most relevant wikiproject for a matter of perceived heteronormative discrimination (or can be seen so in good faith). On a practical note, a talk page perceived to be followed by "pro-A" people will immediately be a magnet for every "anti-A" user out there, so that if you advertise a pro-A proposal in it you usually end up mobilising anti-A people who automatically intervene to "compensate" any "prejudice" from the other side. Nemo 10:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I just want to say: yes, what Nemo describes is how I've seen Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies work. -sche (talk) 10:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- It may be, but it's not how WP operates in relation to the wikiproject. Its watchlisters are overwhelmingly of a particular mindset, and strongly predisposed to react in a particular way to something anyone claims could be offensive to the subject-group of the wikiproject. If it were actually true that watchlisters and thus canvassing respondents at topical pages evened out, we would not need or have rules against canvassing, obviously. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- {{citation needed}} for the claim about mindset, given mine and Nemo's experiences. And notifying wikiprojects is not only routine but explicitly given as the first example of appropriate notification in the rules on canvassing. -sche (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not in non-neutral wording. There is no amount of excuse-making you can come up with to make this not canvassing. I expected about a 10:1 oppose/support ratio in this ANI, and opened it only as a spot to record diffs for Fæ's next target to use in a later case when a zillion canvassed editors aren't lined up in Fæ's defense. The fact that the support ratio is so much higher than that is a clear indication that editors considering policy, and consequences to the project, instead of just voting with their socio-political feelings, know I'm right. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:56, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- {{citation needed}} for the claim about mindset, given mine and Nemo's experiences. And notifying wikiprojects is not only routine but explicitly given as the first example of appropriate notification in the rules on canvassing. -sche (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- It may be, but it's not how WP operates in relation to the wikiproject. Its watchlisters are overwhelmingly of a particular mindset, and strongly predisposed to react in a particular way to something anyone claims could be offensive to the subject-group of the wikiproject. If it were actually true that watchlisters and thus canvassing respondents at topical pages evened out, we would not need or have rules against canvassing, obviously. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nemo, canvassing is not somehow permissible in cases where we think, post hoc, that it might not have been effective. In this case it provably was, because the results at the canvassed MfD (against the Signpost copy) are pretty much exactly the opposite of the ratio of support/delete at the MfD on the userspace copy (likely to be kept), despite various strong arguments that Signpost, as a publication, should not have pages torn out of it after the fact, and that it should enjoy a measure of editorial freedom. The result of the canvassing was overwhelming. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I just want to say: yes, what Nemo describes is how I've seen Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies work. -sche (talk) 10:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Factcheck: Wikimedia LGBT studies is likely to be single most relevant wikiproject to notify about the MfD. Not long afterwards there was a notification on the Village Pump. The LGBT studies notification was shorter than the MfD nomination statement, but was not written with any intention to introduce any different type of statement. To ensure there can be no possible complaint of bias, the wording has been changed to be the full text of the MfD nomination. Nobody, including SMcCandlish, has objected to the wording of the MfD nomination or claimed it was biased. If a complaint is made, I will consider revising the nomination statement based on feedback so it is civil and expressed as fairly as possible. --Fæ (talk) 10:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Notifying WT:LGBT and zero other wikiprojects was canvassing, especially given the non-neutral language. Drawing attention to the MfD at Wikimedia-L and Meta using very non-neutral language was canvassing. There is no way around this, sorry. Providing diffs to discussions is required at ANI and other noticeboards; doing so does not constitute canvassing. In short, you don't seem to have read WP:CANVASSING. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:56, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Emotions are clearly running high, and I think the accusations (on all sides) go further than can be justified. I do think including that essay in the latest Signpost was a misjudgment, but I do not think there was any malicious intent. And I'm saddened once again to see good people fighting each other. On these grounds, I don't think there's justification for any sanctions against anyone. Spend the weekend doing fun things, and come back refreshed and with clearer thoughts - that's something that usually works for me. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
A now-moot demurrer ... |
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- Actually, I've struck that after seeing the two links posted below by Guy Macon, which I agree are over the line. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. Note: Guy Macon's diffs were the original ones I provided when opening the discussion. :-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, but people pay more attention to what I write because of my sweet personality and rugged good looks. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hah! See my user page; I've been compared to Robert Downey Jr and Edward Norton, and more importantly Steven Tyler and John Buscemi. Va-va-voom. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ach, I've been caught out not properly reading all the links!!! ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hah! See my user page; I've been compared to Robert Downey Jr and Edward Norton, and more importantly Steven Tyler and John Buscemi. Va-va-voom. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, but people pay more attention to what I write because of my sweet personality and rugged good looks. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. Note: Guy Macon's diffs were the original ones I provided when opening the discussion. :-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, I've struck that after seeing the two links posted below by Guy Macon, which I agree are over the line. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- In my opinion this [223],[224] went over the line. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:44, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have responded to the meta page discussion about the appropriateness of whether the self elected volunteer role of "WMF Tech Ambassador", which presumes compliance with the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct, is appropriate. It is in no way a "witch hunt" or harassment, however I have made an honest apology there because it clearly is being interpreted as a witch hunt. This was never my intention, which is instead one of simple transparent governance of WMF safe spaces.
- Should anyone wish to raise questions about the WMF Tech Ambassador role or the relationship to the Code of Conduct, it would be best to do it there, rather than on this project. Guy Macon has already done this.
- I shall shortly be changing the discussion so that it is instead raised as an email to the Code of Conduct committee. This will have the benefit of removing any possible appearance of being any sort of witch hunt and we can leave reviewing the evidence to the respected members of the committee. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Trying to get SMcCandlish removed as a WMF Tech Ambassador by private email instead of in a public discussion does not "remove any possible appearance of being any sort of witch hunt". As for your explanation of what your actual intention is, I can't help thinking about your response to SMcCandlish telling you what his actual intention was. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I am sorry, but in the light of your comment minutes ago on my talk page about being scared and intimidated, I do not feel safe myself responding to you in a public forum as this may result in allegations of harassment. I suggest you email the Code of Conduct committee if you have any further comments to make about the case as far is it relates to the CoC requirements for "a respectful and harassment-free experience for everyone". Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Trying to get SMcCandlish removed as a WMF Tech Ambassador by private email instead of in a public discussion does not "remove any possible appearance of being any sort of witch hunt". As for your explanation of what your actual intention is, I can't help thinking about your response to SMcCandlish telling you what his actual intention was. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Procedural note. Given this, I am interpreting the non-sysop action as an effective gag to remove my free speech until one or more administrators or an Arbcom clerk confirms what it means, or whether as I suspect, is it a misuse of process for someone to bully their view on others and shut up someone they have chosen to dislike. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Fæ That is just a
standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect
. It is not a sanction in any way, and does not prevent you from commenting here or anywhere else. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:09, 2 March 2019 (UTC)- Galobtter, thanks for that note. I fail to understand how the Arbcom ruling could possibly apply to my user talk page. If DS applies to the MfD for the disruptive "Pronouns" essay, then the DS notice should be placed there, for everyone to comply with, not on my user talk page.
- This move by SMcCandlish feels like a crafty strategy to gag me. Along with the comments on my user talk page by Guy Macon that they feel 'scared and intimidated' by me, this just looks like a coordinately tactic to game the system by people who know precisely how to go about it.
- I no longer feel safe myself commenting here on this case, or discussing SMcCandlish's actions anywhere on Wikipedia. I feel I am being blatantly harassed by people who know exactly how to distort policies and process to personally attack me.
- This writes off ANI as a venue for legitimate discussion. Apart from corresponding with the WMF and the Code of Conduct Committee in confidence, this makes honestly discussing this very unpleasant case of using Signpost to publish what many other Wikipedians have called "transphobic", impossible for me and based on the above pointy and biased comments about the LGBT Wikiproject, inadvisable for anyone with a track record of LGBT+ related contributions.
- Congratulations to those who seem to think that scaring me off Wikipedia and open and transparent dialogue was a smart idea. I hope you might at some point sit back and reflect on whether this type of behaviour is good for the project. --Fæ (talk) 14:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (...Gives the question serious thought...) It's certainly not what is best for the project. What would be best for the project would be for you to voluntarily cease the behavior that so many editors are complaining about. As an alternative to the disruption continuing, I have to say that yes, some sort of restriction on you is good for the project. If that "scares you off Wikipedia" that would be undesirable, but still better for the project than allowing your disruptive behavior to continue. It's not as if there were no other editors who are willing to do good work in this area without being disruptive. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also, re: "I fail to understand how the Arbcom ruling could possibly apply to my user talk page" that's where DS notices are supposed to be posted. The person posting it was just following Arbcom's specific requirement. Given how long you have been on Wikipedia, how many interactions you have had with admins over your behavior, and your ability to correctly cite and interpret policy when it suits you, I am beginning to suspect that this whole "misunderstand pretty much everything about this case" song and dance is an act that you are putting on. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:47, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have no intention of disrupting Wikipedia, this was the whole point of the MfD, the essay was and remains disruptive. As said, I have no intention of returning to the MfD or commenting about the authors. I would also like to avoid yourself, for reasons that are clear on my user talk page.
- By the way, in the last few years my main contribution to Wikipedia has been biographies, you can see 144 linked on my user page. Most of these are of women and LGBT+ related minorities, see the related reports on my user talk page. A sexuality topic ban would make almost all of these contributions or discussion of the article subjects, impossible. Effectively I would probably cease contributing in any way that improves content.
- None of these biographies or related contributions have been problematic for anyone. --Fæ (talk) 14:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Re: "A sexuality topic ban would make almost all of these contributions or discussion of the article subjects, impossible", there is a simple solution to that. All you have to do is to read the many words that other editors have written explaining exactly why they think you need a topic ban, then stop doing those things rather than arguing that you were right to do them. Actions have consequences, and there is a good chance that your present course of action will result in a topic ban -- either this time or the next time you behave this way. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- (...Gives the question serious thought...) It's certainly not what is best for the project. What would be best for the project would be for you to voluntarily cease the behavior that so many editors are complaining about. As an alternative to the disruption continuing, I have to say that yes, some sort of restriction on you is good for the project. If that "scares you off Wikipedia" that would be undesirable, but still better for the project than allowing your disruptive behavior to continue. It's not as if there were no other editors who are willing to do good work in this area without being disruptive. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban Fæ's behavior must stop. That there was already a topic ban in place shows me that nothing was learned. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose ban: this suggestion is in bad faith and not based on any actual violations of policy. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 14:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban Fae dodged an arbcom case a few short weeks ago for exactly this type of behavior (especially the mailing list post). Mr Ernie (talk) 14:40, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The case request was rejected by Arbcom. Many of the views expressed were that there was no canvassing, and a detailed discussion resulting from the case request is available that basically supports that view is on the talk page of the Canvassing policy. There was no "dodging". --Fæ (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The request was rejected by ArbCom on the procedural grounds that prior resolution attempts (eg at AN/ANI) had not been made (and that feared outing reasons for going to ArbCom first were unfounded). It wasn't a "Fae did nothing wrong" result, it was simply "not within ArbCom scope yet". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The case request was rejected by Arbcom. Many of the views expressed were that there was no canvassing, and a detailed discussion resulting from the case request is available that basically supports that view is on the talk page of the Canvassing policy. There was no "dodging". --Fæ (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support Tban Fae may well have acted according to the project's best interests—in their own lights—but it is, unfortunately, not uncommon for editors to believe that doing what's right for the 'pedia excuses behaviour which has previously led to a topic ban. It does not. ——SerialNumber54129 15:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - This is horribly bad-faith retaliation for the act of bringing to the community's attention a bigoted, unacceptable Signpost "article" attacking trans and non-binary people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think the point is that when one has been
indeffed then later topic-banned by ArbCom from "sexuality, broadly construed" (including gender-related activism) from 2012 to 2017 (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ), for incivility and aspersion-casting, as well as canvassing and forum-shopp[ing]
, it is unwise to be seen to continue such behaviours, regardless of the cause. In other words, Fae did not have to be the one to make the case; there will always be someone else. And in this particular case, it indicates a—lapse?—in judgement not to have foreseen that one's recent Tban, etc., might be brought up. ——SerialNumber54129 16:00, 2 March 2019 (UTC)- "Person reports clearly-unacceptable transphobic bullshittery to Wikipedia community; person who co-wrote said transphobic bullshittery demands that they be banned for having the temerity to report it." You realize what this looks like, right? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I realise that WP:BANEXEMPT is still a redlink; WP:SOFIXIT. ——SerialNumber54129 16:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Of course I was well aware that those that Fæ canvassed for backup in that discussion would say this was a "vengeance" ANI, but that doesn't obviate the need to diff the behavior. If it's not dealt with this time, then it will be if it happens again, which is likely since it's a years-long pattern. I openly agree with the blanking of the Signpost page, and the userspace page appears to be in little danger, so nothing provides your imaginary ulterior motive for me. It's simply not okay to spend days attacking someone as a transphobe on half a dozen pages and to canvass to get your way in a content dispute. It doesn't matter what the topic is, or who is involved, or how popular you are with a particular subset of editors. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- "Person reports clearly-unacceptable transphobic bullshittery to Wikipedia community; person who co-wrote said transphobic bullshittery demands that they be banned for having the temerity to report it." You realize what this looks like, right? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think the point is that when one has been
- Oppose ban. I can't improve on the way NorthBySouthBaranof put it just above. Bishonen talk 16:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC).
- Oppose ban. The Signpost humor article is essentially meaningless drivel. Sorry, SMcCandlish, but you should rein it in. It isn't quite ready for prime time. The Signpost humor article is not offensive in the service of the making of a wider point about language impositions by smaller segments of our society on larger segments of our society. The Signpost humor article lacks an intellectual dimension. Good humor, aside from the ice cream, generally has an intellectual dimension. I could be mistaken, but don't see the intellectual dimension in the Signpost humor article. I find the Signpost humor article saddening and not at all entertaining or thought-provoking. Bus stop (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose ban. per everyone above (mainly NorthBySouthBaranof), Maybe Fae shouldn't of gone to Meta/Mailing list but either way this section is nothing more than retaliatory behaviour, There's only one person in this section that deserves TBANning and it's certainly not Fae. –Davey2010Talk 16:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose ban Seems to be an attempt to have a chilling effect on Fae's good faith effort to point out the unacceptable Signpost article. Please close this and let's focus on the real issue here – which is not Fae! Lourdes 16:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Strongest possible oppose - someone has to call out the bigoted bullshit masquerading as "humour" on Wikipedia, and frankly I told several editors offline about the offensive essay too, and about all the editors I had previously held in very high regard lining up to defend it, because it's embarassing to advocate for this project when these things happen and in my opinion people should know about it. Last week we blocked an editor for calling out blatant racists, this week we're seriously discussing banning an editor for calling out blatant transphobia. What are we saying about what we really want Wikipedia to be, anyway? Which marginalized group shall we alienate next week? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:37, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- What you've said is so inaccurate that it's hard to take seriously. The editor last week was initially blocked for gross incivility (using violent sexual imagery), followed by something that required oversight. This week we're talking about banning an editor who was previously banned for the exact type of behavior they're exhibiting now. All of this sky is falling hyperbole is not helpful. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- AFAIK there was no clear evidence that the editor they used it against was racist. They were weirdly familiar with policy and certain areas and norms of wikipedia for someone so new, so were probably a sock of some sort, but the stuff that caught the communities attention seemed to be some dumb suggestions on Dinesh D'Souza, and while their suggestions were dumb, I don't see how they could in any way be called racist. I had a quick look at their contrib just to see if there was anything I missed, but I'm seeing no signs of racist behaviour Special:Contributions/Luciusfoxx unless you're saying all MAGA Trump supporters are racist [225], but as much as I despise Trump and the MAGA movement, much of which is racist, I find it a step too far to say that any supporters of such are racist. I mean even if you want to get into semantics of whether supporting something clearly racist is racist, at the very least, this isn't the sort of unconscionable behaviour that would make such violent commentary understandable. Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- More to the point, even if Luciousfoxx was a blatant racist, many of us never saw the evidence. (Frankly I didn't even see the Trump/MAGA stuff until now.) AFAIK the reason they were blocked was for socking suspicions, not blatant racism. I didn't pay much attention to the discussion afterwards, e.g. I only discovered a day or two ago that MJP ended up indef blocked for other stuff, and never bothered to understand what the second block was about except, and checking now I'm fairly sure I'm right, it seems to fit even less into the description so I assume it's the first block we're talking about. But in the parts of the discussion I did see, I never saw any of racism evidence presented. Instead people seemed to be saying there was baiting, except much of the baiting seem to involve the ANI and discussions and editors that only got involved after the disgusting violent commentary was made so as I said, in the absence of backwards time travel were not justification. (Frankly the other editor people were accusing of baiting did have some very questionable behaviour racism related in their history from the little that I saw, but again it seems a real stretch to say Luciousfoxx was a blatant racist for involving themselves with that other editor especially since we have no way of knowing how much Luciousfoxx actually knew about the other editor. I would actually have a more sympathy to MJP's position if they had used that violent commentary against this other editor, but that wasn't what happened. Ironically of course this other editor is AFAIK still in good standing, but Luciousfoxx obviously isn't. And to be clear, I'm not saying Luciousfoxx shouldn't have been blocked.) Note as I said before, ultimately, whatever other editors MJP has to deal with, and whatever else is going wrong in wikipedia, for plenty of us this doesn't excuse saying what was said for that particular editor. I have seen the sanitised version of what lead to the indef, and I have no idea if there is some more proven back story as to who Luciousfoxx is a proven sock of only known to certain editors, but if there is then remember that because us plebs don't know about it, and were never even told it existed, we could only go by what we actually saw. (And what I saw was we didn't even know who Luciousfoxx was a sock of. One common theory was someone who has been hounding MJP for ages, and if true then that's absolutely disgusting and frankly I don't really care about that language any more. Except that what I read was people were fairly unsure of this theory, and it wasn't even clear to me that it even occurred to MJP when they used that language, so again, if there was any of this going on us plebs weren't considering something we weren't properly aware of.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. This may seem fairly off-topic, but as someone who still strongly supports the block based on what I saw, while I fully respect people disagree on whether the language used (or anything else) especially since it was directed at an apparent sock, was justification for the block, I do find the comment on the block fairly "alienating" and dismissive of all that went on around the block for those of us who did or do support it. Even more so since I absolutely abhor racism or for that matter transphobia. So I do feel it's justified as a response. Nil Einne (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- [FBDB]Luciusfoxx was ostensibly a Trump supporter, therefore must be a racist. Isn't that how it works? Mr Ernie (talk) 19:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Mr Ernie, you can't see revdeleted edits on MjolnirPants' talk page, and some other material is oversighted so most of the rest of us can't see it (and I am not an oversighter), but suffice it to say that comments were left after-the-fact which leave no doubt that MPants was the victim of a targeted harassment campaign with a racist agenda. Luciusfoxx admitted that was the whole point of them being on Wikipedia in the first place. In retrospect it was plainly obvious and MPants (and others) tried to get that across, but we were all too busy clutching our pearls because - my stars! he done did a curse! - that we sat around picking our asses while a productive editor was driven off the site by one part racist assholes and one part complicit admins (myself included, again in retrospect). And other valued editors have essentially retired in the wake of that incident, because of ignorant (and by that I mean genuinely unaware) editors defending the series of blocks against MPants, in the name of civility. Everyone can be forgiven, seriously, for not being aware of the whole story behind that incident (and there is more behind oversight which I am no party to), but if you think that Wikipedia is not constantly under attack from editors with a racist agenda, you should get your head out of your ass. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- [FBDB]Luciusfoxx was ostensibly a Trump supporter, therefore must be a racist. Isn't that how it works? Mr Ernie (talk) 19:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- AFAIK there was no clear evidence that the editor they used it against was racist. They were weirdly familiar with policy and certain areas and norms of wikipedia for someone so new, so were probably a sock of some sort, but the stuff that caught the communities attention seemed to be some dumb suggestions on Dinesh D'Souza, and while their suggestions were dumb, I don't see how they could in any way be called racist. I had a quick look at their contrib just to see if there was anything I missed, but I'm seeing no signs of racist behaviour Special:Contributions/Luciusfoxx unless you're saying all MAGA Trump supporters are racist [225], but as much as I despise Trump and the MAGA movement, much of which is racist, I find it a step too far to say that any supporters of such are racist. I mean even if you want to get into semantics of whether supporting something clearly racist is racist, at the very least, this isn't the sort of unconscionable behaviour that would make such violent commentary understandable. Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- What you've said is so inaccurate that it's hard to take seriously. The editor last week was initially blocked for gross incivility (using violent sexual imagery), followed by something that required oversight. This week we're talking about banning an editor who was previously banned for the exact type of behavior they're exhibiting now. All of this sky is falling hyperbole is not helpful. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Agreeing with Fæ's opinion about an essay has nothing to do with Fæ's canvassing and incivility in furtherance of that opinion. The several comments above simply are not responsive to the ANI report but are WP:ILIKEIT about Fæ's personality and socio-politics. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- So be it. Your essay is bad and you should feel bad. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector Whether my content was terrible or not is irrelevant. You can't violate terms of a topic-ban appeal to go after things you think are terrible and (perhaps more to the point) personally go after their authors. I think people are going to look back on this ANI and cite it as one of the cases of the editorial community basically shitting in it own pants in public, in a spectacular display of hypocrisy and special-exceptionalism. How are we supposed to take seriously the idea that you can't canvass and attack people in furtherance of agenda X (pick one: fringe "science", creationism in schoolbooks, actual transphobia, racist "theories" about intelligence, etc., etc.) if the same people who condemn it will crawl over each other to be the first to label it heroic to do the same things for agenda Y? For the first time in my entire wiki-life I'll say this: I'm damned glad we have an Arbitration Committee. This kind of ANI mob rule / popularity contest bullshit will bring the project into more long-term disrepute than anything else possibly could. All you're doing is proving the increasingly common accusation that this has become LeftismPedia where rules only apply to people right of center. (And, no, I'm not a conservative saying that.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:11, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- So be it. Your essay is bad and you should feel bad. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban While NBNS is absolutely correct in that Fae should have the ability to alert the community to an essay in a WP voice that can be read to be very bigoted (and which I fully agree is one likely reading), they have no right to accuse anyone that supported the essay to be bigoted, per Guy/SmC's diffs. Whether the essay was meant to be insulting or humorous is a separate question, but one cannot go throwing accusations like those of Fae on other editors; given past blocks and warnings, this is crossing the line. --Masem (t) 16:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- At no point have I called anyone a bigot or a transphobe. I have attempted to be extremely careful to keep on pointing out the difference between the essay and the author at each stage for our readers, and I do not think I have made a mistake on this. I am happy to apologise if at some point I typed something out that appeared ambiguous, if something reads that way it was a mistake, and would clearly be a serious mistake. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Every other post of yours about this has had a "transphobic" accusation in it. It is not possible for an article/essay to have a phobia, because it has no brain. It's just unadulterated ad hominem against the author. You cannot system-game your way out of sanctions by tweaking sanctionable personal attacks to seem to be about content when they are and only can be about the person. This has already been explained to you, so you are just playing WP:IDHT games again. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- At no point have I called anyone a bigot or a transphobe. I have attempted to be extremely careful to keep on pointing out the difference between the essay and the author at each stage for our readers, and I do not think I have made a mistake on this. I am happy to apologise if at some point I typed something out that appeared ambiguous, if something reads that way it was a mistake, and would clearly be a serious mistake. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, this is incorrect and I certainly Do Hear You. The essay has been objected to by many, many Wikipedians as being "transphobic", they are objecting to the way the essay reads and the words and language put it it. Clearly an author can write humour pieces which poke fun at minority groups, this does not make the author a racist, or whatever minority group they are writing about, even if what they have written will be read that way.
- It is impossible to object to say, racist jokes, without explaining what the problem is and actually saying the problem is that the jokes are racist or use racist language but that does not presume that the author is a racist.
- As I have written several times now, at no point have I called you a transphobe or any equivalent term. The essay was problematic for the reason already stated and the MfD discussion with opinions from highly respected Wikipedia contributors, including at least one Arbcom member, spells this out to both of us extremely clearly. --Fæ (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nope. "Other people are being incivil, too, so I can automatically get away with it despite a specific restriction that applies to me" isn't how it works. On the other matter: -ism actually does apply to material; and -ism is a doctrine, which consists of material. A -phobia is a mental condition. They are not comparable. Given the likelihood that you'll not be sanctioned at ANI this time because your canvassed entourage are defending you, and the likelihood that you'll do this again, I'm sure we'll get to review this in more detail in an AE or ARCA case, the outcome of which is quite certain to be a reinstated topic ban. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- The diffs given by Guy, while not explicitly accusations of bigotry against SMC, are basically saying "SMC supports this essay I believe is very bigoted, therefore SMC must be bigoted and should be stripped of WMF privileges". If it was 100% clear the essay in question was bigoted by all, and SMC still supported it, you probably would have a case. But while I agree with the stance the essay was inappropriate, I also can read the humor it implied, and thus taking someone supporting the essay which has different viewpoints as to try to get them stripped of WMF privileges is nowhere close to appropriate. --Masem (t) 18:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- This is getting beyond ridiculous. Someone publishes an essay that is viewed as offensive by many editors and are we surprised when that boils over into allegations and counter allegations? Ideally, like I said on the MfD, the original essay posters would have been wise to just ask for its deletion when they saw the objections (you do know that you can still do that) but wisdom is in short supply these days, unfortunately not just on Wikipedia. If you do something boldly offensive and then double down on it, you should also learn to live with the flak that you get and not go crying for help. --regentspark <small>(comment)</small> 16:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've already openly stated I support the blanking of the Signpost page. I have no more pull than that; the Signpost editors are not posting here, so the "you" in "you can still do that" are not present. This ANI is, and only is, about canvassing and uncivil personal aspersions by Fæ. Even if we pretend the latter are okay in this context, a) it is not okay for Fæ in particular to do it in this topic area, as a breach of the conditions of their topic ban being lifted; and b) the canvassing is not excusable (doubly for Fæ for exactly the same reason). WP simply does not permit T'ban-related breaches no matter how right the editor feels they are or how many friends agree with their viewpoint. Same goes for canvassing even in the absence of ArbCom having editor-specific conditions about it. Cf. numerous people T'banned from FRINGE and MEDRS topics not for being wrong but for aggressively violating policies, after warnings and second chances, in furtherance of being right. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- ANI discussions examine the actions of all involved editors. It's not limited to Fæ's. –dlthewave☎ 03:43, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Of course. So show me the consensus that I've violated a policy. There's a clear sense that a lot of people don't like what I wrote, but that's very different proposition. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- ANI discussions examine the actions of all involved editors. It's not limited to Fæ's. –dlthewave☎ 03:43, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban This has gotten incredibly ridiculous. In my opinion, Fae is right about the essay published in the signpost, but that does not justify the extremes they have taken this too. There are now several threads about this, including here on enwiki, on meta, and on the wikimedia listserv. Fae's mission here is not to ensure that people be respectful to transgender people, but to stir up as much drama as possible. There is no justification for the lengths they have gone to and the amount of drama they have caused across multiple projects. Natureium (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I regret sending the email to Wikimedia-l, that was stupid, lesson learned. It was a single email intended as a notification, there have been no replies to it. Were I to do this again, I would suggest that someone else send out a summary, possibly once the MfD was closed or well underway. It has been called canvassing here, but according to the lengthy discussion we had as a community about off-wiki emails on WT:Canvassing, this would not be a breach of guidelines.
- The discussion on meta is a single discussion about the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct, which does not apply to Wikipedia, so should not be discussed here. Based on feedback I have moved that to an email procedure. Again I regret not following the confidential email procedure in the first instance, though this would not have given the author an opportunity to discuss the matter with me directly.
- Other discussions on Wikipedia are the MfD and the comments page. I created the MfD but nothing else. The notice at the LGBT Wikiproject was a notice, there is no discussion there. There is a thread on a more general Signpost talk page, not specifically about the problematic essay under deletion, but it is short and is defunct.
- I am unaware, I think, of any other discussions besides those two understandably active ones on Wikipedia, and of course this one on ANI, which I would very much prefer to never have been created. I have not gone out of my way to create multiple discussion threats, clearly if I did that would be deliberate disruption. Until this ANI thread, nobody had written about the case on my user talk page. --Fæ (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm going to Oppose any topic ban here. While I do think there are some reactions from Fae that went over the top, I think there are very definitely mitigating circumstances which should be taken into account. A topic ban (or sanctions on anyone involved) would only make a bad situation worse. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- ArbCom will disagree; being right isn't grounds for violating T-ban related restrictions, nor canvassing (especially when doing the latter is also a violation of the specific terms of the T-ban being lifted). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Whether ArbCom might agree or disagree is entirely up to them, and it's not for you or I to decide. But until it's brought before them and still remains in the community domain, that's of no relevance. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nah. All you have to do is actually read RFARB and ARCA (and AE) decisions, in particular the ones about this particular editor and this topic area. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Whether ArbCom might agree or disagree is entirely up to them, and it's not for you or I to decide. But until it's brought before them and still remains in the community domain, that's of no relevance. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- ArbCom will disagree; being right isn't grounds for violating T-ban related restrictions, nor canvassing (especially when doing the latter is also a violation of the specific terms of the T-ban being lifted). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose ban This is retaliatory and an unnecessary escalation of an already unfortunate situation. Enacting this ban would be damaging to the encyclopedia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban. The following two calls for firing:
As part of the Wikipedia Visiting Scholars program, Barbara (WVS) has been granted special status at the University of Pittsburgh, and in this capacity is seen to represent Wikimedia and Wikipedia, even if not in a paid capacity. Given their coauthorship of the defamatory essay, I do not see how it would be ethical for Barbara (WVS) to retain any recognition or relationship, and ask that a representative of Wiki Education provide an official response
together withSMcCandlish is named as a WMF Tech Ambassador, and I have requested on Meta that this formal recognition is immediately removed by the WMF, as their views are directly antithetical to the WMF supported Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
, as published by Fae, are nothing but calls to a witch hunt. This is a clear attempt to defame two persons, clearly directed against them as human beings and not about what was or was not intended to be read in the criticized article. Such a bigoted attempt to belittle people is disgusting, and protective measures are to be taken to be sure that such an horrifying pattern of behavior will no more occur again. Never ever. Pldx1 (talk) 17:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have already stated I regret sending the email. It was stupid. I apologize. However writing a notification email to Wikimedia-l is not of itself canvassing, though the email should have been acceptable if limited to a very strictly neutral notification, or not sent at all. By stating that the authors have views directly antithetical to the WMF CoC, this is correct and a matter of fact, as the publication of the "humour" pronouns essay, was disruptive and has been read by many, probably the majority of Wikipedians, as offensive and defamatory for genderqueer people. To publish and promote an essay which does this, regardless of it an aim to be humorous, or putting humour in the title, it is directly against the explicit requirements of the Code of Conduct with regard to treating gender minorities with respect. As also stated above, this is a matter for that committee to review. --Fæ (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unless you can demonstrate that the essay was deliberately offensive and defamatory for genderqueer people, you can not validly assert as a matter of fact that the authors have views directly antithetical to the WMF CoC. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, this is wooly thinking on my part about what exactly the words mean. That was a stupid thing to say. If I could retract it I would. I should have been expressed purely on the essay and its impact with zero possible implications about the authors at all, as if it were a statement to go to court. Frankly, from this point on, this is such a bloody minefield, I have no intention of sending a notification about Wikipedia to Wikimedia-l again, even if the policy is made clearer. --Fæ (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Fæ: You most certainly can retract it and should do so immediately. Do it at the Meta discussion. Do in e-mail to the WMF parties you've been badgering to get myself and Barbara "fired as volunteers" from various processes. Do it at Wikimedia-L. Do it at both MfDs, and anywhere else you've made such claims. A retraction you offer but will not actually perform is a hollow sham (or worse). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:23, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, this is wooly thinking on my part about what exactly the words mean. That was a stupid thing to say. If I could retract it I would. I should have been expressed purely on the essay and its impact with zero possible implications about the authors at all, as if it were a statement to go to court. Frankly, from this point on, this is such a bloody minefield, I have no intention of sending a notification about Wikipedia to Wikimedia-l again, even if the policy is made clearer. --Fæ (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unless you can demonstrate that the essay was deliberately offensive and defamatory for genderqueer people, you can not validly assert as a matter of fact that the authors have views directly antithetical to the WMF CoC. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have already stated I regret sending the email. It was stupid. I apologize. However writing a notification email to Wikimedia-l is not of itself canvassing, though the email should have been acceptable if limited to a very strictly neutral notification, or not sent at all. By stating that the authors have views directly antithetical to the WMF CoC, this is correct and a matter of fact, as the publication of the "humour" pronouns essay, was disruptive and has been read by many, probably the majority of Wikipedians, as offensive and defamatory for genderqueer people. To publish and promote an essay which does this, regardless of it an aim to be humorous, or putting humour in the title, it is directly against the explicit requirements of the Code of Conduct with regard to treating gender minorities with respect. As also stated above, this is a matter for that committee to review. --Fæ (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: For starters, this conduct does not even violate the policy in question, see WP:CANVAS:
"An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at...[t]he talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion."
Each of the diffs McCandlish supplies is at such a discussion space where a notice on this particular MfD would be appropriate and permitted. Now, do I think Fae's approach here was particularly well advised or helpful to the situation? No, I do not. In particular, the Meta posting is rather immflamatory and ill-advised. But there's been no explicit violation of the cited policy. Now clearly there's a history here of combativeness in this area significantly enough that the community had to intervene. Knowing nothing of that history, I can't rule out the question that action will be warranted here eventually. But insofar as there has been no brightline violation of policy, this is not the time or place for that. Fae was bringing a legitimate complaint about polemic/WP:NOT content to the wider community's attention, within the rules permitted, so proposing a sanction here is only muddying the waters of an already tense and complicated situation. I'd suggest this section be closed sooner rather than later under a WP:SNOW rationale and in the sake of preventing further sprawl in this discussion. We have enough to puzzle out here as is. Snow let's rap 17:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC) - Oppose per Cullen. This isn't going to make a bad situation any better. GABgab 17:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment/weak oppose-I am inclined to say per Nat but the mitigating circumstances are indeed a factor. But, I do agree that as much as the piece was poorly written and ill-thought; Fae is dragging this to the extremes and needlessly. @Fæ:, now that there are multiple longstanding editors looking at the Signpost case and the entire locus, can you just stay out of this? ∯WBGconverse 17:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that the discussion by now has enough eyes on it that it would probably benefit from both SMcCandlish and Fæ practising abstinence from it from now on, lest it give rise tio suggestions of WP:BLUDGEONING; yes, I am referring to the habit of replying to every single opposition comment, whatever "side" you're on! ——SerialNumber54129 18:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Yes please and thank you. The MfD would benefit I think, genuinely. Note that I have already stated this above, but it's clearly a very long thread now. --Fæ (talk) 18:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Amen. -sche (talk) 18:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough. The ban reinstatement already has more support than I expected, given the mood, so its actual intent – to provide a diff pile for a later, calmer case if one is needed, or (much better) to cause cessation of the problem because Fæ will see the writing on the wall – is likely to work out fine, one way or the other. Those !voting to essentially pretend policy doesn't exist for anyone they agree with already know they're in the wrong and are doing it anyway, so pointing it out again won't change that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:06, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that the discussion by now has enough eyes on it that it would probably benefit from both SMcCandlish and Fæ practising abstinence from it from now on, lest it give rise tio suggestions of WP:BLUDGEONING; yes, I am referring to the habit of replying to every single opposition comment, whatever "side" you're on! ——SerialNumber54129 18:01, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. I like GeneralizationsAreBad's generalization. :-) Hard though it may be for many of us to appreciate, trans* and many gay people have a well-founded fear of persecution and are easily hurt by "jokes" like this, and WMF policy is rightly explicit about safe spaces. No sanction for a whistle-blower who did what he believed he must do. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. These aren't WP:CANVASS; raising topics of potential concern and attracting attention to disputes so they can be resolved by a broad audience are what most of these discussion boards and projects are for. The post to the LGBT project could have been more cautiously-worded but is (comparatively) neutral and brief; the complaints over the WMF Tech Ambassador position are not, but those seem like the correct venues to raise such issues, and it would be silly to say that no such complaints can be raised while an MFD is in progress. (The Tech Ambassador role itself, of course, is not something determined by consensus and therefore cannot be canvassed.) The MFD discussion perhaps shouldn't have been linked in the complaint sent to Wikimedia-l, but that seems comparatively minor given that it's just a footnote in a message sent to a broad, neutral venue, with nothing that would really drive people to it. These don't remotely rise to the level that would require a topic ban. Regarding the question of whether going after the WMF Tech Ambassador position was going too far - maybe, but I definitely don't think it's sanctionable to send in such a complaint. Regarding the WP:CIVIL concerns, I don't think it's uncivil to indicate that you believe someone's statements or actions are transphobic as long as that position is at least not completely unreasonable, since transphobic language is itself is a civility and conduct concern. Banning people from saying so would essentially be saying "no, it's uncivil for you to call me uncivil." This doesn't mean Fæ's actions or language are ideal, but I don't think they're sanctionable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose ban and support some form of WP:BOOMERANG against SMcCandlish. Nihlus 19:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- The continued WP:BLUDGEONING should, frankly, stop. The second point in that is SMcCandlish accuses Fæ in that they call SMcCandlish transphobic. However, it has yet to be shown, even when maybe a lot of people are on the edge of shifting from calling the essay transphobic to calling the author a transphobe. However, that was yet to happen. A lapse in judgment about that should be fixed, and either there should be diffs, or the accusations in "calling a transphobe" should be retracted. -Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 19:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support ban this is particularly appalling. Fæ made an accusation against SMC and called for sanctions, but after SMC attempted to rebut the charges, Fæ attempted to silence SMC by claiming that it was not a debate. Fæ, it is not okay to try to shut down an editor who is responding to charges that you made against them. Lepricavark (talk) 21:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Cullen. Innisfree987 (talk) 21:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ground hog day, every day. The things one sees when one checks in here. The first time the person behind the account "Fae" claimed he was intimidated/harassed off this website (in response to criticism of the exact type of behavior he's exhibiting here - particularly weaponized and fact-free allegations of homophobia) was in 2010. [226]Dan Murphy (talk) 21:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- User:Ash/Passive aggressive is especially interesting... --Guy Macon (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support topic ban, From what I've seen, the incivility and the canvassing by Fae is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Speaking as someone who has made it a point to stay away from drama boards, what is happening here is far too Orwelian to overlook. I commend SMC Cavendlish for remaining civil despite the unfounded accusations of writing "transphobic polemic" and the provocations that have been directed towards him. While incivility doesn't surprise me from the general public, it does surprise me coming from some (or, at least one) of the admins in this case who have proven little else other than that they are emotionally underdeveloped and overly sensitive, both characteristics highly unfitting for an admin. Points are better made when they are level-headed, logical and free of ad-hominems, but a lot of what of what I've seen from Fae and their supporters are appeals to emotion. Elspamo4 (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Strong oppose per Ivanvector and Nihlus.Praxidicae (talk) 22:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Strong oppose and Boomerang SMcCandlish - NorthBySouthBaranof puts it best. Fæ's work to bring this to the attention of the community and WMF is entirely appropriate. I'm not sure why it would be inappropriate to notify WMF of the conduct of their "ambassador". I see no sign of incivility or aspersion-casting; all of their comments seem to be well-supported by the facts. If their topic ban has been rescinded, there is no reason to expect them to avoid this topic. On the other hand, I see nothing but bullying from SMcCandlish on the various related talk pages. If Fæ is on a mission, it is a mission that I fully support. –dlthewave ☎ 00:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I would suggest that such a response by Fæ is exactly what SMcCandlish was looking for when he wrote the Signpost piece. It is thinly disguised bait at best, and unfortunately Fæ bit way too hard. Perhaps they did go a bit too far, but so did the Signpost article. Pinguinn 🐧 05:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting technique of just making stuff up when you don't actually know, rather than finding out. In point of fact, I wrote this essay in user space over a year ago, and left it in draft state, read by nearly no one. I was unaware of Fæ at that date, much less Fæ's history of disruption in this topic area (I was unaware of that until 2 days ago [227]). Someone from Signpost found the essay while reading some of my more public and worked-over essays and asked to use it, and I assented (which I should not have). Then Fæ exploded into a fireball of canvassing, slander, hounding, and more. That's all there is to it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that Fæ's "transphobic"-laden WP:HOUNDING of myself and Barbara_(WVS) has resulted in the latter being pressured into resigning as as Visiting Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh today [228]; I imagine this also has implications for her job at UP, unless she has tenure, though I have not pestered her for details. Fæ's smear-campaign behavior is having real-world consequences. Shit like this is precisely why we have rules against this kind of "destroy anyone I disagree with" behavior. No one's real-life roles for external organizations should be endangered over content disputes on Wikipedia. (Keep this in mind especially considering what political forces are in power in the US and UK at present; how would you like it if, say, some right-wing religious activist tried to get you fired for blockading their attempts to de-neutralize content at WP articles like Creation and evolution in public education?)
Fæ appears to acknowledge this was wrong on their part, but pretends that retraction isn't possible [229]. (How about just do it.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC); diffs added 08:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hey, how's the view from way up there on your high horse, SMcCandlish? From down here it looks an awful lot like you're trying desperately to deflect your own responsibility for writing a flaming trash heap of an essay. If you're disturbed that that's having real-world consequences for real people now, well then good, I'm glad you're capable of some small amount of empathy. If you really want to do something about it and not just blame everyone else for the real consequences of your own essay, you could go right now and slap a {{db-self}} on it. Don't worry, I won't be holding my breath. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish's comments bear a striking resemblence to the "character assassination" narrative currently in vogue within US politics, complete with liberal usage of the term "witch hunt". Organizations do not cut ties or pressure folks into resigning (if that is indeed what happened) without good reason; they do it because they find the evidence compelling. These are the natural consequences of Barbara's, and your, actions. They are not the fault of the whistleblower. –dlthewave ☎ 17:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hey, how's the view from way up there on your high horse, SMcCandlish? From down here it looks an awful lot like you're trying desperately to deflect your own responsibility for writing a flaming trash heap of an essay. If you're disturbed that that's having real-world consequences for real people now, well then good, I'm glad you're capable of some small amount of empathy. If you really want to do something about it and not just blame everyone else for the real consequences of your own essay, you could go right now and slap a {{db-self}} on it. Don't worry, I won't be holding my breath. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Proposed solution to this dumpster fire
This taking up more and more space on multiple pages, and is unlikely to arrive at a solution that doesn't piss off a bunch of people. Therefore I propose:
- Refer this to Arbcom, with the message that the consensus on ANI is that this case would benefit greatly by the structure of an Arbcom case.
- An experienced and uninvolved administrator who is especially cool headed and who has a thick skin should write up the Arbcom request.
- As far as possible, the Arbcom request should be neutrally worded as opposed to advocating for or against sanctions. There will be plenty of that in the evidence phase.
- If Arbcom accepts the case, I propose that all; discussions on all English Wikipedia pages be closed and collapsed, and that we advise the other places where this is being discussed about this, noting that they may (or may not) want to do the same.
If needed, I can make this into an RfC, but I personally think we can get the consensus of the community on this proposal with a more informal discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support I think it’s inevitable. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose while I personally support a tban on Fæ, it seems apparent that the community-at-large does not support such an outcome. Nor have there been clear indications of clear community support for sanctions against SMC or Barbara. You are correct that we are unlikely to find an ideal solution here, but I don't expect that ArbCom will be able to find such a solution either. I suspect we've all seen ArbCom decisions that left everyone involved unhappy, and given the explosive nature of this situation, I don't think an ArbCom case is worth the risk. At this point, it is probably best to let this blow over. Lepricavark (talk) 22:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - zero confidence that Arbcom is any more capable of realizing this situation for what it is, because of vague hand-waves to civility. Support in spirit, but it's only going to lead to something bad for the project and which nobody is going to like. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- My thinking is not that Arbcom has any special abilities that ANI lacks, but what Arbcom does have is structure. Each person gets their own evidence section, with strict word limits, and clerks to enforce those limits. It is my hope that this structure will get us away from what we hace now, which is a discussion that keeps growing without any limit, and which keeps spilling into more and more pages and even to other projects. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:47, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Procedural oppose based on general opposition to the idea of RFCs to send things to ArbCom. I have no opposition to someone actually trying to start an Arbcom case over this (it is, in fact, the sort of thing we keep them around for), but no consensus is necessary for that. I disagree with the rest of this proposal because even with a neutrally-worded request, the nature of this step pressures ArbCom to accept and do some vaguely-defined 'something'. If someone send does send them a case, they should decide whether to accept and what to do themselves based on the merits rather than because the community !voted for it. --Aquillion (talk) 23:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Aquillion, this isn't an WP:RFC. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, we have people weighing in on a formal-ish proposal, and it's asking the community for consensus, so the effect is the same. My point is, no consensus is needed to present something to ArbCom, and I think it's a mistake to ask ANI for that since it inevitably prejudges the resulting case request, no matter how neutrally-worded it is. --Aquillion (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Aquillion, this isn't an WP:RFC. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: I'd settle for a warning that additional such behavior in the future likely will lead to either a reinstatement of the TBan via ANI, and if that fails a likely ArbCom case, because the evidence over multiple venues and multiple cases is adding up over time. Softlavender (talk) 23:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Have previous warnings caused the behavior to stop? Did removing the previous topic ban and replacing it with a warning have the desired effect? Why would this time be any different? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- How many official administrator warnings, posted on Fæ's talkpage, that "additional such behavior in the future likely will lead to either a reinstatement of the TBan via ANI, and if that fails a likely ArbCom case", have there been since the TBan ended in 2017? Softlavender (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Have previous warnings caused the behavior to stop? Did removing the previous topic ban and replacing it with a warning have the desired effect? Why would this time be any different? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Note, Arbcom does not settle content disputes. It makes rulings on editor behavior. GoodDay (talk) 23:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support - This may go on for months. ArbCom cases take too long, but the flip side to that is that ArbCom is the right venue for things that will take too long. Guy Macon is right that ArbCom cases have structure, which ANI does not. There are multiple conduct issues: whether Barbara violated a topic-ban; whether Fae violated a warning; et cetera. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:09, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon makes a very good point. Arbcom pretty much always looks at everyone involved. For example, nowhere in this ANI case has anyone called for sanctions against me, but if Arbcom takes the case anyone is free to present evidence of any wrongdoing by me, and if the evidence is compelling, I will, after 12 years of editing, receive my very first sanction. Another possible result is a finding that Fæ did nothing wrong, which means that I and everyone else would have to stop saying that they did. That's the real advantage of Arbcom; it settles the user conduct issue and allowes everyone to move on. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:23, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support closure of this entire ANI thread as it doesn't seem to be moving towards consensus, and I agree with Aquillion, if editors are free to file at Arbcom individually or jointly about any part of this matter at any time anyway, then perhaps it's better to close rather than seeking consensus at ANI for an Arbcom filing. Leviv ich 05:09, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I guess it's a nice theory, but ArbCom wouldn't accept the case in all likelihood, for several reasons. There's no evidence that the MfD processes about the pages in question are failing, and ArbCom doesn't resolve content disputes anyway. Whether there should be community censure toward myself or Barbara_(WVS) or Signpost editor-in-chief Bri doesn't rise to ArbCom level (MfD is already answering it); there's no grounds for an RfARB against these parties. Whether Fæ is breaking the terms of their topic-ban being lifted is a simple matter, which can be determined at AE or ARCA and does not require an RfARB. A long list of temporarily-ranty parties in an RfARB to just nit-pick at people for heat-of-the-moment accusations isn't something ArbCom will be interested in (nor should it, nor should the community want that); it's very, very different behavior from HOUNDING-style pursuit of "enemies" in socio-political dialogue across multiple WMF sites and multiple en.wp venues; that's all Fæ. The entire topic area is already under AC/DS anyway; ArbCom will simply say "there are unexhausted remedies available for disruption, so use ANI, or use AE if the party has already received a DS/alert." If you look into recent activity over there, you'll see that they just merged the GGTF and GamerGate cases into one, to consolidate, so they'd be extra-against the idea of re-forking a new "Gender, round 3" case. The place to resolve any further disruption is going to be AE and, if necessary, ARCA. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:43, 3 March 2019 (UTC)